November 20, 2024

>>> HELLO, EVERYONE.

AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & CO. " >> I WILL TRAVEL HERE IN A COUPLE OF HOURS TO ISRAEL, TO TRY TO BRING THIS TO A CLOSE, IF WE CAN.

>> HOPE IN LEBANON AS THE U. S. BRINGS ITS CEASE-FIRE TO BEIRUT AND JERUSALEM, COULD A DEAL BE IMMINENT?

AND AS ISRAEL INTENSIFIES ITS AIR ATTACKS, WHAT ABOUT THE HUMAN TOLL OF THIS WAR.

I'LL SPEAK TO NABIH BULOS.

> >> I'VE NEVER BEEN A POLITICAL GUY.

>> IT SHOULDN'T BE THIS HARD.

>> THE INDEPENDENT WHO TOOK NEBRASKA BY STORM.

FORMER SENATOR DAN OSBORN ON WHY HIS PARTY HAS SPARKED SOMETHING BIG.

WHY HE PLANS TO GET INTO THE WORKING CLASS OF POLITICS.

>> THERE ARE A LARGE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO OPPOSE PRESIDENT TRUMP'S RE-ELECTION, AGAINST WHOM THE PRESIDENT-ELECT HAS THREATENED LEGAL VENGEANCE.

>> PAUL ROSENZWEIG, A SENIOR OFFICIAL AT THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY, GIVES HIS MESSAGE TO PRESIDENT BIDEN, PARDON TRUMP'S CRITICS NOW.

> >> "AMANPOUR & CO" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

THE SYLVIA AND SIMON B. POYTA.

FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAWLINGS.

THE FILOMEN D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION.

THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANT COONEY FUND.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR BBS STATION, FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

> >> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M BIANNA GOLODRYGA IN NEW YORK.

> >> ENVOY HOCHSTEIN WHO WAS BRINGING A CEASE-FIRE TO ISRAEL AND HEZBOLLAH.

THEY ARE SAID TO BE RESPONDING POSITIVELY.

MEANWHILE, ISRAEL HAS BEEN INTENSIFYING ITS AIR STRIKES, EVEN INSIDE BEIRUT.

AND THE IMPACT ON OTHER THAN CHILDREN HAS BEEN PARTICULARLY DIRE.

WITH NEWS NOW FROM UNICEF THAT 200 CHILDREN HAVE BEEN KILLED IN LEBANON IN THE PAST TWO MONTHS.

AMONG THEM, TWO 4-YEAR-OLD TWIN GIRLS, JUST A SNAPSHOT OF THE DEVASTATING REALITY ON THE GROUND.

NABIH IS JOINING US.

ALSO GREAT TO HAVE YOU ON THE PROGRAMS.

ESPECIALLY GIVEN WHERE YOU ARE IN LEBANON.

WE'VE HAD YOU ON THE PAST FEW MONTHS, SINCE THIS OFFICIAL WAR BEGAN HERE.

AND YOU'VE GIVEN US SOME REAL INSIGHT INTO WHAT THINGS LOOK LIKE, ON THE GROUND.

THE IMPACT THAT THIS HAS HAD ON CIVILIANS.

AND WALK US THROUGH WHAT YOU'VE SEEN AS OF LATE.

>> WELL, IN FACT, JUST TODAY, ACTUALLY, I WENT THROUGH A BIT OF A DRIVE THROUGH THE CONSTILLATION OF SUBURBS THAT ARE UNDER HEZBOLLAH SWAY.

AND THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS, AS YOU GO THROUGH IT, YOU CAN SEE THAT THE DAILY PUMMELING, OR NEAR-DAILY PUMMELING, I SHOULD SAY.

THERE ARE SO MANY STREETS THAT ARE DESTROYED, BOULEVARDS THAT ARE DAMAGED WHERE IT'S NOT POSSIBLE TO PASS THROUGH THEM.

AND OF COURSE, IT SHOULD BE SAID THAT THE WHOLE AREA IS VIRTUALLY DEVOID OF RESIDENTS AT THIS POINT.

YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS.

AND THAT'S JUST NEAR BEIRUT.

OF COURSE, IF YOU GO FARTHER SOUTH, TO THE EASTERN PARTS OF THE COUNTRY, LIKE THE DE KALB VALLEY, YOU'LL ALSO SEE SIMILAR DEVASTATION IN TOWNS AND VILLAGES.

AND ALSO SOME OF THE MAJOR CITIES TO THE SOUTH.

I MEAN, THIS HAS BEEN ABOUT, NOW, I'M HERE FOR ABOUT TWO MONTHS NOW.

AND I MUST SAY THAT THE LEVEL OF DAMAGE, REALLY FAR, FAR EXCEEDS WHAT WE'VE SEEN IN THE PAST IN 2006 AND ELSEWHERE IN LEBANON.

>> ACCORDING TO CNN, OVER 2800 HAVE BEEN KILLED SINCE SEPTEMBER 17th.

OF COURSE, ISRAEL HAS SAID ALL ALONG THAT THEY ARE TARGETING HEZBOLLAH FIGHTERS AND LEADERS.

AND THEY ISSUE WARNINGS.

BUT YOU SEE THE IMPACT IT HAS ON CIVILIANS, IF THEY HAVE TO FLEE.

IT LEAD US TO, IT APPEARS, BOTH SIDES, SEEMINGLY CLOSER TO THIS DEAL COMING TO AN END.

SORT OF READING TEA LEAVES.

THE FACT THAT HE STAYED IN LEBANON OVERNIGHT.

SEEMS TO SIGN SOME OPT MISM ABOUT WHERE THINGS STAND NOW.

WALK US THROUGH THE PARAMETERS OF THIS PARTICULAR DEAL.

AS HOCHSTEIN MAKES HIS WAY TO ISRAEL.

>> I WANT TO SAY, THOSE EVACUATION ORDERS USUALLY COME ABOUT AN HOUR BEFORE THE STRIKE HAPPENS.

THAT'S APPARENTLY ENOUGH TIME.

AND OFTENTIMES, IF THE ATTACKS HAPPEN AT NIGHT, AS YOU CAN IMAGINE, IF A WAR COMES UP AT 1:00 A. M. THAT'S NOT EFFECTIVE.

>> YEAH, LOGISTICALLY, OF COURSE.

>> IF TERMS OF MR. HOCHSTEIN'S PROGRESS.

THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS, YES, WE ARE HEARING ABOUT PROGRESS.

AND AS YOU SAID, HE DID STAY OVERNIGHT, AND THAT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE AN ENCOURAGING SIGN.

HE ALSO SAID, THE REASON HE WAS GOING TO ISRAEL IS THERE WAS PROGRESS.

EXPRG APPARENTLY, THERE HAS BEEN.

BUT I MUST SAY, THERE ARE SOME MAJOR STICKING POINTS THAT ARE I THINK AT THIS POINT, VERY UNCLEAR.

OF COURSE, MR. HOCHSTEIN HAS NOT SAID ANYTHING ABOUT DETAILS.

NEGOTIATIONS, I GUESS, AND THE VARIOUS CONDITIONS.

BUT THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS, IF YOU CONSIDER WHAT IS BEING SAID, OR WHAT IS SAID IN THE MEDIA, BECAUSE OF LEAKED DOCUMENTS.

THERE IS A MAJOR STICKING POINT.

WHICH IS THAT ISRAEL WOULD WANT TO OBTAIN THE ABILITY TO STRIKE AT HEZBOLLAH THROUGHOUT THE COUNTRY AT ANY TIME.

>> AS YOU CAN IMAGINE, THIS IS NOT GOING TO FLY WITH LEBANESE LEADERS BECAUSE IT WILL MEAN THE COUNTRY'S SOVEREIGNTY.

AT THE SAME TIME, YOU WILL HEAR THAT ISRAEL WANTS TO FLY AND GO THROUGH CROSS LEBANON.

THESE ARE MAJOR STICKING POINTS.

AND I SIMPLY CANNOT IMAGINE THAT THIS GOVERNMENT IS ABLE TO SEE THAT LEVEL OF SOVEREIGNTY, WITHOUT GETTING INTO A MAJOR, MAJOR UPROAR FROM PEOPLE.

>> HOW WOULD THE ROLES OF UNIFILL AND U. N. PEACEKEEPERS THERE IN SOUTHERN LEBANON, AS WELL AS THE LEBANESE ARMY ITSELF.

WHAT ROLE WOULD IT PLAY, AS IT RELATES TO WHAT APPEARS TO BE THE FRAISM WORK FRAMEWORK OF THE DEAL MIRRORING.

>> AGAIN, THERE ARE VARIOUS, I SUPPOSE, IDEAS OR PROPOSALS HERE.

ONE IDEA WOULD TELL YOU THAT THE FORCE WOULD HAVE TO BE GREATLY EXPANDED.

AND ENTER INTO PRIVATE PROPERTY.

AND INSPECT.

AND I GUESS, I SUPPOSE, HAVE MORE TEETH, WHEN IT COMES TO INSPECTION MECHANISM.

AT THE SAME TIME, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT USING LEBANESE ARMED FORCES TO INCREASE THEIR NUMBER AND INCREASE THEIR INFLUENCE AND PRESENCE IN SOUTHERN LEBANON.

AND THROUGHOUT THE TERRITORY AS WELL.

NOW, IT SHOULD BE SAID, OVER THE LAST, I SUPPOSE, 18 YEARS, BEFORE THIS WAR STARTED.

YES, UNIFO WAS THERE.

YES, THE LEBANESE ARMY WAS THERE.

BUT THEY DID MANAGE TO KEEP A SOMEWHAT WIDE BERTH FROM HEZBOLLAH.

IT SHOULD BE SAID THAT THAT AGREEMENT DID HOLD FOR ABOUT 18 YEARS.

IT IS WORTH NOTING THAT IT DID SUCCEED FOR A BIT.

NOW, AT THE SAME TIME, IT'S CLEAR THAT THE STATUS QUO WILL NOT BE RETURNED.

OR AT LEAST THAT'S WHAT IS BEING SAID BY ISRAEL.

AND THAT WOULD INVOLVE A MORE, I THINK, ELABORATE UNIFILL.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME, THERE IS TALK OF THIS MECHANISM.

AND THAT WOULD HAVE TO ALSO BE --I THINK WOULD HAVE TO INVOLVE A FEW NATIONS AND WOULD HAVE TO HAVE TEETH AS WELL.

I MEAN, ALL OF THESE ARE ACTUALLY, I THINK, QUITE LARGE PHYSICAL HURDLES THAT WILL NOT BE SOLVED IN A FEW DAYS.

>> YEAH.

OF COURSE, THIS IS SOMETHING THAT THE BIDEN AFTERWARD MINISTRATION IS AIMING TO HAVE OUT OF THE CONFLICT IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

THERE APPEARS TO BE MORE OPTIMISM, THAT THERE COULD BE SOME SORT OF RESOLUTION, BEFORE BIDEN LEAVES OFFICE, TWO MONTHS FROM TODAY.

BUT AS YOU SAY, THERE ARE SO MANY STICKING POINTS AT HAND.

SPECIFICALLY AS IT RELATES TO THE FUNCTIONING OF A GOVERNMENT WITH LEBANON.

WHAT DOES THAT LOOK LIKE WITH A WEAKENED OPPORTUNITY WITH HEZBOLLAH.

BUT ALSO, A LOT OF CONCERN ABOUT SECTARIAN SECTIONS THAT HAVE BEEN ONGOING IN THE COUNTRY FOR DECADES.

>> IN TERMS OF THE SECTARIAN SECTIONS, IT SHOULD BE NOTED THAT PEOPLE HAVE BEEN ABLE TO TAP OUT ON MUCH OF THAT.

I'M SURE YOU REMEMBER, THERE HAVE BEEN 1.

2 MILLION PEOPLE IN THEIR HOMES.

AND THE GRAND MAJORITY OF THEM ARE SHIA.

AND MAJORITY OF THEM ARE SUPPORTERS FOR HEZBOLLAH.

AND WE HAVE SEEN OVERALL, THAT LEBANESE IN OTHER PARTS OF THE COUNTRY, HAVE BEEN ABLE TO HOST THEM AND WELCOME THEM AS FELLOW COUNTRYMEN.

NOW, AT THE SAME TIME, I MEAN, WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF WE ARE TALKING ABOUT A DISARMING OF HEZBOLLAH?

SHOULD BE SAID THAT SO FAR, NOT A LOT OF TALK HAS HAPPENED BUT NEAR THE SOUTH OF LEBANON.

IF WE ARE TALKING ABOUT SOMETHING WIDER, THEN THAT COULD INDEED, SPUR THE SECRETARY OF DEFENSE IN THE PAST.

IT WOULD BE HARD TO IMAGINE HEZBOLLAH EASILY CEDING ITS ARMS FOR ONE.

THE LEBANESE SHIITES IN THE PAST WERE CONSIDERED TO BE QUITE DOWNTRODDEN IN LEBANESE SOCIETY.

AND DID NOT HAVE THEIR RIGHTS, COMPARED TO OTHERS.

THEY DID NOT ARISE OUT OF A VACUUM.

THEY CAME OUT OF A REAL NEED TO HAVE SHIA IN THE COUNTRY.

I THINK WE'D BE HARD-PRESSED TO HAVE PEOPLE GIVE UP THEIR ARMS WHOLESALE.

THIS IS GOING TO BE A VERY DELICATE SITUATION, I BELIEVE.

AND I THINK BEING ABLE TO NAVIGATE IT.

I MEAN, I'D BE SURPRISED IF THEY CAN NAVIGATE IT IN A SMOOTH FASHION.

ESPECIALLY BECAUSE IT SHOULD ALSO BE SAID, YOU HAVE NO REAL GOVERNMENT IN LEBANON AT THE MOMENT.

AND IN FACT, NEGOTIATIONS ARE BEING LED BY THE SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE.

WHICH, CONSTITUTIONALLY, IS QUESTIONABLE IN LEBANON.

AND YET, HERE WE ARE.

SO IT IS COMPLICATED.

>> AND THAT'S WHO HOCHSTEIN WAS MEETING WITH.

A FRAGILE GOVERNMENT CONTINUES TO GROW BUT THE SITUATION BECOMES MORE AND MORE DIRE BY THE DAY.

WE'LL FOLLOW THE DEVELOPMENTS.

ALWAYS GOOD TO HAVE YOUR PERSPECTIVE AND REPORTING ON THE GROUND, NABIH BULOS.

WE APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANK YOU.

> >> WITH A NEW ADMINISTRATION IMMINENT, DOES THE WHITE HOUSE LACK LEVERAGE TO RESTRAIN A NETANYAHU GOVERNMENT AND DRIVE THROUGH A MEANINGFUL AGREEMENT?

DAVID KIRSER KNOWS WHAT IS AT STAKE AS WELL.

HE WAS AMBASSADOR TO ISRAEL AND EEGYPT AS WELL.

THANK YOU FOR THE TIME.

YOU HEARD MY CONVERSATION WITH NABIH, ABOUT POTENTIAL CEASE- FIRE PROSPECTS.

LET ME TURN TO GAZA.

BECAUSE AS IT RELATES TO THIS TRANSITION PERIOD LAST WEEK.

WHEN WE SAW PRESIDENT-ELECT TRUMP MEETING IN THE OVAL OFFICE.

IT WAS REPORTED THAT ONE OF THE ISSUES THEY SEEM TO BOTH AGREE ON IS THE NEED FOR RESOLUTION AND SEELS CEASE-FIRE IN GAZA.

WHAT ARE YOUR VIEWS ON THE POSSIBILITY OF THAT HAPPENING?

ESPECIALLY NOW WHILE WE'RE IN THIS LAME DUCK PERIOD?

>> WELL, I THINK THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION WILL WORK UNTIL THE LAST HOUR TO TRY TO BRING ABOUT A CEASE-FIRE AGREEMENT THAT ALLOWS FOR THE FOREIGN AND ISRAELI HOSTAGES TO RETURN.

BUT AS WE'VE SEEN OVER THE PAST 12 MONTHS, THE LEADERSHIP AMONG HAMAS AND LEADERSHIP IN ISRAEL HAVE SET CONDITIONS THAT HAVE BASICALLY DERAILED THE EFFORT TO BRING ABOUT THAT AGREEMENT.

AND THEREFORE, IT'S HARD TO SEE WHETHER OR NOT IN THIS PERIOD OF A LAME DUCK PRESIDENT, AND IN ANTICIPATION OF A NEW ADMINISTRATION, THERE WOULD BE ANY MAJOR CHANGE IN THE POSITION OF THE TWO PARTIES.

CLEARLY PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU WANTS TO BE ON THE GOOD SIDE OF THE INCOMING ADMINISTRATION.

AND THEREFORE, HE HAS TO ASSESS WHETHER OR NOT HE NEEDS TO MODIFY HIS POSITION, IN ORDER TO BRING ABOUT AN END TO THE HOSTILITIES.

BUT NO ONE REALLY HAS CONTROL OVER HAMAS'S DECISION-MAKING.

AND THEY ARE IN A BIT OF STRAITS NOW.

BECAUSE THEIR LEADERSHIP IN DO HA HAS BEEN MOVING AROUND.

MAYBE RELOCATING TO TURKEY.

IT'S ALWAYS HARD FOR THEM TO MAKE DECISIONS.

AND THERE'S NOT BEEN AN INDICATION UNTIL NOW, THAT THEY WANT ANYTHING LESS THAN THE FULL WITHDRAWAL OF ISRAEL FROM GAZA.

AND AN INDETERMINATE END TO THE HOSTILITIES.

>> YEAH.

AND WE ARE JUST REITERATING THAT POINT TO HAMAS'S ACTING GAZA CHIEF, IN AN INTERVIEW WITH AL-AQSA TV MOMENTS AGO.

SAID THERE WILL BE NO PRISONER SWAP UNLESS THE WAR THERE ENDED.

I'D LIKE TO PLAY SOUND FROM PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU, AS HE WAS MAKING A VISIT IN GAZA YESTERDAY, AS IT RELATES TO THE HOSTAGES THEMSELVES IN A PROPOSAL, A FINANCIAL REWARD, FOR THOSE WHO WOULD RELEASE THE HOSTAGES UNHARMED.

LET'S PLAY THAT FOR YOU AND TALK ABOUT IT AFTER.

>> I WANT TO SAY TO THOSE WHO ARE HOLDING OUR HOSTAGES.

WHOEVER DARES TO HARM OUR HOSTAGES.

HIS BLOOD IS ON HIS HEAD.

WE WILL PURSUE YOU, AND WE WILL GET YOU.

>> I ALSO SAY TO THOSE WHO WANT TO GET OUT OF THIS MAZE, WHOEVER BRINGS US A HOSTAGE, WE WILL FIND A SAFE WAY FOR THEM AND THEIR FAMILY, TO GET OUT.

WE WILL ALSO GIVE A REWARD OF $5 MILLION FOR EACH HOSTAGE RETURNED.

YOU CHOOSE.

THE CHOICE IS YOURS.

BUT THE RESULT WILL BE THE SAME.

WE WILL BRING THEM ALL BACK.

>> THERE YOU SEE THE PRIME MINISTER, STANDING WITH HIS NEW DEFENSE MINISTER, ISRAEL KATZ.

JUST CURIOUS, THOSE WORDS REALLY ECHOED THE SAME WORDS WE HEARD FROM PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU, EFFECTIVELY GIVING AMNESTY, TO THOSE WHO ARE HOLDING TERRORISTS, IN THE AFTERMATH OF YA YA SIN OF SINWAR.

THAT DIDN'T RESULT IN ONE THEN.

WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THE ODDS OF ONE HAPPENING NOW?

>> LOOK.

IT'S POSSIBLE THAT AN INDIVIDUAL HERE OR THERE IN GAZA WILL FIND A WAY TO BRING A HOSTAGE TO ISRAELI FORCES AND FIND HIS OWN WAY OUT OF GAZA, PLUS GETTING THE REWARD.

YOU REMEMBER BACK IN IRAQ, IT WAS SADDAM HUSSEIN'S BODYGUARDS WHO TURNED HIM IN AT THE END.

SO IT'S NOT IMPOSSIBLE THAT INDIVIDUALS HERE OR THERE MAY STEP FORWARD, BUT HAMAS HAS BEEN VERY TOUGH ON THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE THEMSELVES.

AND HAS TAKEN ACTION TO PREVENT THAT KIND OF RESPONSE TO ISRAELI ENTREATIES.

SO I WOULDN'T BE OPTIMISTIC THAT WE'RE GOING TO SEE AN END TO THE HOSTAGE SITUATION, EVEN THOUGH HOPEFULLY, ONE OR TWO OR PERHAPS MORE HOSTAGES, INDIVIDUALLY, WILL BE RELEASED.

>> IN TERMS OF THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION, PERHAPS, IN THIS LAME DUCK PERIOD, PUTTING MORE PRESSURE ON NETANYAHU, TO BRING FORWARD A CEASE-FIRE DEAL OR AT LEAST AGREE TO ONE WHOLEHEARTEDLY.

NOW, THERE HAD BEEN SOME SPECULATION, PERHAPS THAT THE U. S. WOULD NOT VETO RESOLUTIONS AT THE UNITED NATIONS.

BUT THAT IS NOT WHAT HAPPENED TODAY.

THE U.S. , IN FACT, VETOED THE U.N. SECURITY COUNCIL, GAZA SECURITY RESOLUTION, FOR NOT BEING LINKED TO A HOSTAGE DEAL.

AS IT RELATES TO THE ISSUE AT HAND NOW, TO AN INCOMING PRESIDENT TRUMP, THIS IS CLEARLY NOT SOMETHING THAT HE WANTS TO INHERIT.

HE RAN ON ENDING CAR WARS, NOT, NOT STARTING THEM.

WHAT LEVERAGE DO YOU THINK HE CAN HAVE ON PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU ALONE?

OBVIOUSLY KNOWING THERE IS HAMAS AS A PLAYER HERE, TOO, TO PRIORITIZE A CEASE-FIRE HOSTAGE DEAL, AS OPPOSED TO REMAINING IN GAZA LONGER.

LOOK.

THERE'S NO QUESTION, HE'LL HAVE SUBSTANTIAL LEVERAGE, GIVEN NOT ONLY WHAT WE PROVIDED TO ISRAEL SINCE LAST OCTOBER.

BUT THE ONGOING WARS IN GAZA, LEBANON, AND THE POSSIBILITY OF ESCALATION WITH IRAN, SUGGESTS THAT ISRAEL WILL REQUIRE ADDITIONAL AMERICAN ASSISTANCE.

HIS SPOKESPEOPLE, HOWEVER, HAVE NOT BEEN SENDING THAT SIGNAL.

THEY HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT HAVING ISRAEL SCORE A DECISIVE VICTORY.

LETTING ISRAEL DECIDE FOR ITSELF, WHAT CONSTITUTES VICTORY.

SO UNLESS THE PRESIDENT-ELECT DECIDES TO GET AHOLD OF WHAT HIS SPOKESPEOPLE ARE SAYING, AND TO SEND THE MESSAGE TO THE PRIME MINISTER, THAT IT'S GOT TO COME TO AN END, IT DOESN'T LOOK AS THOUGH THERE'S GOING TO BE PRESSURE TO BEAR.

AND IF THERE'S NOT THAT KIND OF PRESSURE TO BEAR AFTER JANUARY 20th, WELL, WE'RE CERTAINLY NOT GOING TO SEE IT BEFORE JANUARY 20th.

YOU MENTIONED THE VETO.

THE ADMINISTRATION IS PUTTING PRESSURE ON DREM ON DEMOCRATS IN CONGRESS NOT TO OPPOSE.

IT DOESN'T LOOK VERY POSITIVE THAT THE UNITED STATES WILL EXERT ANY KIND OF INFLUENCE ON ISRAEL, UNTIL WE AND THEY ARE PERSUADED THAT THE MISSION HAS BEEN ACCOMPLISHED.

AND THAT'S THE PROBLEM.

WE DON'T REALLY KNOW WHAT THE MISSION IS.

IT'S IN NETANYAHU'S HEAD.

BUT WE DON'T KNOW AT WHAT POINT HE WILL DECLARE, QUOTE/UNQUOTE, VICTORY.

>> I'VE BEEN TOLD BY ISRAELI OFFICIALS THAT IF THERE'S ONE PERSON WHO CAN PERSUADE, ACTUALLY PRESSURE HIM TO MAKE MOVES, EVEN THOSE THAT HE OPPOSES OR ARE RELUCTANT TO MAKE IS DONALD TRUMP.

BUT HOW DOES THAT BALANCE WITH HIS OWN POLITICAL CHALLENGES AT HOME?

THEIR CONTINUED NEW LEGAL INVESTIGATIONS SURROUNDING AIDES AROUND HIM.

HE'S GOT HIS CRIMINAL CASES THAT HE'S GOING TO BE TESTIFYING BEFORE IN JUST WEEKS FROM NOW.

KEEPING HIS COALITION TOGETHER, SEEMS TO BE HIS TOP PRIORITY.

DOES THAT CHANGE IN A TRUMP ADMINISTRATION?

>> YOU KNOW, WE'RE IN AN EXTRAORDINARY MOMENT, WITH A PRESIDENT-ELECT WHO HAS PROBABLY THE MOST SIGNIFICANT MANDATE OF ALMOST ANY PRESIDENT IN HISTORY.

THE POPULAR VOTE, THE ELECTORAL VOTE, THE SENATE, THE HOUSE.

AND A PRETTY CONCRETE MAJORITY IN THE SUPREME COURT.

AND SO --AN ESTUTE POLITICIAN CAN LEAD IN MANY DIRECTIONS, BOTH DOMESTICALLY, AND IN FOREIGN POLICY.

ESPECIALLY IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

BUT THE PRESIDENT-ELECT SEEMS TO BE ASSEMBLING A CABINET THAT IS ONLY GOING TO CREATE ADDITIONAL PROBLEMS FOR HIM.

THEY SEEM BENT ON DESTRUCTION AND UNDERMINING THE WAY GOVERNMENT FUNCTIONS.

SURE, GOVERNMENT NEEDS REFORM.

BUT IF YOU LOOK AT THE VARIOUS CANDIDATES, THE NOMINEES, THEY'RE IN THE --THEY'RE IN THE CATEGORY OF THOSE WHO WANT TO TEAR DOWN, RATHER THAN BUILD UP.

SO THE FIRST ITEM OF BUSINESS FOR THE PRESIDENT-ELECT TODAY, LET ALONE JANUARY 20th, IS TO FIGURE OUT WHAT HE WANTS TO ACCOMPLISH.

AND WHEN IT COMES TO THE MIDDLE EAST, IF HE REALLY WANTS TO ACCOMPLISH A CEASE-FIRE, AND SOME DEGREE OF RETURN TO NORMALCY, HE'S GOING TO HAVE TO PAY SOME ATTENTION TO WHAT HIS ADVISERS ARE SAYING, WHAT HIS SPOKESPEOPLE ARE SAYING.

AND HE'LL HAVE TO PUT SOME LEVERAGE BEHIND AMERICAN POLICY.

VIS-A-VIS ISRAEL AND VIS-A-VIS THE ARABS.

>> HIS FIRST TERM IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

ABRAHAM ACCORDS THAT PRESIDENT BIDEN HAD HOPED TO CONTINUE TO PURSUE AND EXPAND WITH THE NORMALIZATION BETWEEN SAUDIS AND ISRAEL.

BUT OF COURSE, THAT WAS UPENDED IN THE ATTACK.

AND THE SUBSEQUENT ATTACK.

AND WAR.

NOW, PRESIDENT TRUMP IS GOING TO BE INHERITING A VERY DIFFERENT MIDDLE EAST.

IF THIS IS, INDEED, A CONTINUED PRIORITY FOR THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

YOU HEARD MBS DESCRIBE JUST LAST WEEK, THE WAR IN GAZA, AS A GENOCIDE.

YOU HAD SPOKESPEOPLE AND THOSE WHO ARE APPOINTED TO TOP INTELLIGENCE AND MILITARY SPOTTING AS CONTINUING OR WANTING TO PURSUE A MAXIMUM PRESSURE POLICY, AS IT RELATES TO IRAN.

WHERE DO YOU SEE THIS ATTEMPT AND APPROACH TO AN ABRAHAM 2.

0?

>> LOOK.

THE SAUDIS REMAIN INTENSELY INTERESTED IN A RELATIONSHIP THAT IS IMPROVED WITH THE UNITED STATES.

AND THE RELATIONSHIP WITH ISRAEL.

WHICH HAS HAD A BILATERAL RELATIONSHIP FOR A LONG TIME.

BUT IN THE CLOSET.

BUT THE SAUDIS NOW ARE CONSTRAINED BY THE FACT THAT THEY WOULD BE SUBJECT TO TREMENDOUS PRESSURE WITHIN BOTH THE ARAB WORLD, GENERALLY, AND AMONG THEIR OWN PEOPLE.

IF THEY NORMALIZE RELATIONS WITH ISRAEL, WITHOUT HAVING SOMETHING ACCOMPLISHED FOR PALESTINIANS.

THEY'VE DEFINED THAT.

AS A SERIOUS AND IRREVOCABLE PATHWAY TO A PALESTINIAN STATE.

PRESIDENT, AS WE KNOW, PRESIDENT-ELECT, AS WE KNOW, HAS A PLAN ON THE TABLE FROM 2020, WHICH WAS NOT ACCEPTABLE TO ANYBODY, BUT PERHAPS HE CAN BUILD ON IT.

AND MAKE IT MINIMALLY ACCEPTABLE TO PALESTINIANS.

SO IF YOU START OUT WITH THE IDEA THAT THE SAUDIS WANT TO DO THIS, AND YOU KNOW WHAT THE COST IS, OR THE PRICE IS, THE QUESTION IS, IS THE PRESIDENT- ELECT READY TO PAY THAT PRICE?

>> AND WE KNOW IT'S SOMETHING THAT PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU HAD WANTED TO ACCOMPLISH AS WELL.

BUT WE ALSO KNOW THAT HIS COALITION, EVEN THE IDEA OF PROPOSING A DAY AFTER A PLAN, OR TWO-STATE SOLUTION, IS SOMETHING THAT COULD THREATEN TO BREAK UP THIS COALITION.

SO A LOT OF CHALLENGES LIE AHEAD, BOTH FROM THE U. S. PERSPECTIVE, AND OBVIOUSLY, IN THE MIDDLE EAST AND GOVERNMENTS THERE.

DANIEL KURTZER.

ALWAYS GOOD TO SEE YOU.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING THE PROGRAM.

>> MY PLEASURE.

THANK YOU.

> >> AS AMERICA PREPARES FOR DONALD TRUMP'S SECOND TERM, MANY ARE STILL ANALYZING HIS ELECTION VICTORY, AND WHAT IT SAYS ABOUT THE COUNTRY AND HOW IT'S FEELING.

ALL OVER THE WORLD, REGARDLESS OF POLITICAL IDEOLOGY, WE'VE SEEN VOTERS REJECT INCUMBENTS IN AN ATTEMPT TO BRING CHANGE.

ANGER OVER INFLATION AND RISING COSTS, HAS LEFT MANY DISILLUSIONED.

MY NEXT GUEST MADE THAT HIS FOCAL CAMPAIGN TO REPRESENT NEBRASKA.

RUNNING AS AN INDEPENDENT, DAN OSBORN LOST, BUT ONLY BY ABOUT 60,000 VOTES.

AND NOW HE'S LOOKING TO THE FUTURE, AFTER HIS CAMPAIGN STRUCK A CORD WITH MANY BLUE- COLLAR VOTERS.

HIS CAMPAIGN IS ABOUT ELEVATING THE WORKING CLASS.

AND HE PLANS TO TAKE IT NATIONALLY.

HE JOINS US FROM OMAHA, NEBRASKA.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

AS WE NOTED, YOU LOST YOUR SENATE BID, BUT BY A VERY CLOSE MARGIN.

INSTEAD OF BEARING YOUR HEAD, AND GOING BACK TO WORK, WHICH, BY THE WAY, WE SHOULD NOTE, YOU ARE GOING BACK TO WORK, BECAUSE AS YOU SAID, YOU HAVE TO PAY THE BILLS.

YOU STARTED A WORKING PACT FUND.

>> WE DID SOMETHING HISTORIC HERE IN NEBRASKA.

I WAS ABLE TO BRING REPUBLICANS, DEMOCRATS AND INDEPENDENTS TOGETHER IN THE SAME ROOM WITHOUT ANY FIGHTING OR SCREAMING OR YELLING.

KIND OF REMINDS ME OF AN EVENT RECENTLY, I HAD IN COLUMBUS, NEVADA.

AT THE OLDEST BAR, WEST OF THE MISSISSIPPI.

EXCUSE ME.

SAY THAT 10 TIMES REALLY FAST.

BUT THERE WAS ABOUT 80 PEOPLE AT THE PUBLICLY ADVERTISED EVENT.

AND THE ROOM STARTED TO DIVIDE ITSELF BETWEEN, YOU KNOW, THE TRUMP T-SHIRTS AND MAGA HATS.

AND THEN CAMOUFLAGED HARRIS AND WALTZ WALZ HATS ON THE OTHER SIDE.

I ALWAYS TALK HOW I TALK.

REPUBLICANS HERE AREN'T THE DEVIL.

THE DEMOCRATS CERTAINLY AREN'T.

BECAUSE WE'RE ONE NATION.

AND YOU KNOW, JUST THIS DIVISION, YOU HAVE TO ASK, WHO IS DIVIDING US, THAT KIND OF THING.

AND RIGHT NOW, THE FOCUS HAS TO BE ON CAMPAIGN FINANCE REFORM, GETTING THE MONEY OUT OF POLITICS.

CITIZENS UNITED.

I SAW IT FIRSTHAND.

10 MILLION CAME IN, IN THE LAST TWO WEEKS, AND THEY SPREAD LIES ABOUT ME.

AT THE END OF THE DAY, WHAT WE WERE ABLE TO ACCOMPLISH, WE WOULD HAVED A TRUMP AND OSBORN SIGN IN ONE YARD.

AND YOU WOULD SEE A TRUMP AND HARRIS SIGN IN ANOTHER YARD WE'RE NOT AS DIVIDED AS PEOPLE THINK WE ARE.

AND ONCE WE START FOCUSING ON THE ACTUAL ISSUES AND TALK ABOUT RESOLVING THE ISSUES, TOO, NOT JUST ARGUE BEING WHAT THE ISSUES ARE.

A LOT OF HEADS START NODDING IN THOSE ROOMS.

AND YOU KNOW, WE CAN ALL JUST START BEING FRIENDS AND NEIGHBORS AGAIN.

AND YOU KNOW, THAT WAS PART OF WHY I WAS SUCCESSFUL.

>> YOU CLEARLY STRUCK A CORD, NOT ONLY WITH THOSE IN YOUR HOME STATE.

BUT OUTSIDE OF THE STATE AS WELL.

$35 MILLION IN OUT-OF-STATE DONATIONS, AND FUNDING, CAME YOUR WAY.

WHAT IS IT THAT YOU THINK YOU STRUCK IN TERMS OF RAISING ATTENTION, NOT ONLY FOR YOURSELF.

BUT THE POLICIES?

THAT YOU WERE CHAMPIONING?

YEAH.

YOU KNOW, I DID SPEAK A LOT ABOUT THE ECONOMY.

BECAUSE THAT'S FIRST ON EVERYBODY'S MIND.

YOU WORK HARD IN THIS COUNTRY, LIKE ME, I WORK WITH MY HANDS.

YOU SHOULD KNOW THAT YOUR PAYCHECK MATTERS.

THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT WAS SET UP TO TAKE CARE OF THE BIG STUFF, THE FOREIGN AFFAIRS, LIKE YOU WERE JUST TALKING ABOUT EARLIER.

AND THE BORDER, THINGS LIKE THAT.

BUT ALSO, YOU KNOW, THE ECONOMY.

THE ECONOMY HAS TO STAY STRONG.

WE ALL HAVE TO KNOW THAT OUR PAYCHECK MATTERS AT THE END OF THE DAY.

WE WANT TO LIVE IN SOME SORT OF SEMBLANCE OF PEACE.

BEING ABLE TO AFFORD A HOME, AFFORD YOUR CARS AND SAVING UP MONEY FOR COLLEGE, HOPEFULLY MONEY FOR A GOOD CHRISTMAS.

SO WE CAN ALL JUST BASICALLY LIVE THE UPON AMERICAN DREAM.

AND THAT'S WHAT I WAS MAINLY TALKING ABOUT.

THOSE ARE WORKING PEOPLE'S FOCUSES.

AND THAT'S WHY I STARTED THE WORKING CLASS HEROES FUND.

TO HELP PEOPLE IF YOU'RE A BUS DRIVER OR NURSE OR TEACHER OR PLUMBER OR CARPENTER.

YOU DON'T HAVE TO KNOW, YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE A SELF-FUNDING CRYPTO BILLIONAIRE TO RUN OFFICE.

AND THIS IS GOING TO HELP PEOPLE GET STARTED.

WHETHER THAT'S FOR A LOCAL DOG CATCHER.

AND YOU CAN GO TO THAT, WORKING CLASS HEROES.

FUND AND NOMINATE SOMEONE YOU THINK MIGHT BE GOOD TO GET INTO POLITICS, WHETHER THAT'S A UNION MEMBER OR A VETERAN, OR SOMEBODY ELSE, YOU KNOW, BECAUSE WE NEED MORE WORKERS TO HAVE A SEAT AT THE TABLE.

>> YEAH.

AND YOU DON'T FIT INTO ONE BOX, THAT IS FOR SURE.

YOUR MESSAGE IS PRO GUN.

TOUGH ON THE BORDER.

YOU'VE ALIGNED YOURSELF WITH SOME OF TRUMP'S MESSAGING, ON BUILDING THE WALL BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES AND MEXICO.

AND YET, YOU LOST THE SENATE RACE IN A DEEP RED STATE OF NEBRASKA, RUNNING AS AN INDEPENDENT BY JUST SEVEN PERCENTAGE POINTS.

I WANT TO GIVEN OUR VIEWERS A SENSE OF WHAT YOUR AD WAS LIKE.

>> I'M A TRUE INDEPENDENT.

ACROSS NEBRASKA, PEOPLE ARE TIRED OF A CORRUPT WASHINGTON CONTROLLED BY BILLIONAIRES.

DEB FISCHER?

THEY LOVE HER.

HECK, THEY OWN HER.

THAT'S WHY THEY'RE SPENDING MILLIONS TO DISOWN ME.

TRUMP NEEDS HELP BUILDING A WALL?

I'M PRETTY HANDY.

DEBONAIR POLITICIANS, THEY'RE TRYING TO STOP TRUMP, JUST LIKE THEY'RE TRYING TO STOP ME.

>> WHAT WAS THE RESPONSE YOU GOT FROM VOTERS TO THAT AD?

>> IT WAS VERY MIXED.

BUT I THINK THE ESSENCE OF THE AD IS WHAT I NEEDED PEOPLE TO KNOW, THROUGHOUT NEBRASKA, THAT IT'S OKAY TO VOTE FOR INDEPENDENT.

I'VE NEVER BEEN ABLE TO HAVE AN IDEOLOGY, WHERE I'M SUPPOSED TO BELIEVE ONE SIDE AND REJECT ALL THE OTHER SIDES, AND VICE VERSA FOR THAT MATTER.

IT WAS JUST BASICALLY, LETTING PEOPLE KNOW.

BECAUSE I WAS RUNNING AGAINST THE REPUBLICAN.

SO IT STANDS TO REASON, SHE TRIED TO PAINT ME OUT TO BE A DEMOCRAT IN SHEEP'S CLOTHING THE WHOLE TIME.

THAT WAS A MOVE JUST TO LET PEOPLE KNOW IF THEY WERE VOTING FOR TRUMP, THAT IT WAS OKAY TO VOTE FOR OSBORN, TOO.

AND THE WAY I SAW IT IN ALL OF MY EVENTS.

I FEEL LIKE IF I WAS ABLE TO GET OUT IN FRONT OF EVERY SINGLE NEBRASKAN AND TALK TO THEM, IN THE GROUPS I TALK TO.

AND TALKING ABOUT THAT CORPORATE MONEY, WE NEVER TOOK A DIME OF CORPORATE MONEY.

MY AVERAGE DONATION WAS STILL $40.

SO I DO BELIEVE THIS CAMPAIGN WAS POWERED BY THE PEOPLE, THE WAY THE FRAMERS OF THE CONSTITUTION INTENDED IT TO BE.

GOVERNMENT FOR AND BY THE PEOPLE.

LIKE I SAID, WE'RE NOT GOING TO AGREE ON EVERY SINGLE ISSUE.

BUT AT LEAST, WHAT YOU'RE GOING TO GET FROM SOMEBODY WHO IS NOT TAKING CORPORATE MONEY.

YOU'RE GOING TO GET SOMEONE WHO IS NOT OBJECTIVE.

>> HOW MUCH TIME DID YOU SPEND ON THE ROAD?

GOING COUNTY TO COUNTY, ACROSS THE STATE, TALKING TO VOTERS?

>> BOY, YOU KNOW, I NEVER KEPT TRACK.

WE JUST WOULD GO.

AND BEFORE WE GET TO TOWN, WE'D ALWAYS CALL UP THE LOCAL NEWSPAPER OR PRESS.

AND THERE WERE SOME DAYS, I DID SIX OR SEVEN EVENTS AT A DAY.

STARTING AT A COFFEE SHOP IN THE MORNING.

WE WOULD PASS THE TOWN THERE.

DO LOCAL BUSINESS WALKS.

TRY TO TALK TO AS MANY PEOPLE AS POSSIBLE.

I CALL IT KIND OF A WHAT AILS YOU TOUR.

KIND OF OLD-SCHOOL CAMPAIGNING, GO INTO A BAR IN THE EVENING, HAVE A BEER WITH LOCALS AND TALK POLITICS.

>> WHAT AILS YOU TOUR.

THE CONSENSUS TO THE TOP AILMENT WAS WHAT?

IN THE UNITED STATES?

THE ECONOMY?

>> YEAH.

IT WAS THE ECONOMY, NUMBER 1, SLASH INFLATION.

SECOND WOULD BE PEOPLE HAD TO BE CONCERNED ABOUT THE BORDER.

NEBRASKA IS A HUGE MEATPACKING STATE.

SO THERE'S A LOT OF CONCERN THERE.

AND THEN NUMBER 3 WOULD BE INDIVIDUAL LIBERTIES.

WHETHER THAT WOULD BE A WOMAN'S ABILITY TO CHOOSE HER OWN HEALTH CARE, OR THE SECOND AMENDMENT.

>> IT'S INTERESTING, IN TERMS OF JUST THE ECONOMY, STATISTICSWISE, THE U. S. IS MUCH HEALTHIER THAN EVERY WESTERN COUNTRY.

THE UNEMPLOYMENT RATE, NATIONWIDE.

IT IS LOW.

THE UNEMPLOYMENT RATE IN NEBRASKA IS EVEN LOWER THAN IT IS NATIONALLY, AT 2.

7%.

AND I THINK THAT'S SOMETHING PERHAPS, THAT THE DEMOCRATS THAT KAMALA HARRIS AND JOE BIDEN WERE REALLY PUZZLED ABOUT NOT RESONATING MORE WITH AMERICANS.

YES, INFLATION, REALLY WAS A GAME CHANGER.

BUT YOU STARTED TO SEE, EVEN INFLATION COOLING.

WHY WAS THERE SUCH A DISCONNECT BETWEEN THE MESSAGING THAT YOU HEARD FROM THE REPUBLICANS, DONALD TRUMP, THIS IS THE WORST ECONOMY EVER, GIVEN JUST THE DATA POINTS DIDN'T SUGGEST THAT AT ALL.

COMPARED TO HOW PEOPLE WERE REALLY FEELING, WHICH WAS CLEARLY NOT WELL.

>> I THINK YOU HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD.

IT'S ABOUT THE FEELING, RIGHT?

I THINK IT'S INFLATION STARTING TO LOWER.

DAY LATE AND DOLLAR SHORT.

TAXES HAVE GONE UP.

I JUST TRIED TO CHANGE MY AUTO INSURANCE BECAUSE IT'S GETTING UNAFFORDABLE.

AND NOBODY WILL TAKE ME BECAUSE ONE OF MY DAUGHTER'S CARS IS A HYUNDAI.

AND APPARENTLY THOSE GET STOLEN A LOT.

AND NOBODY WILL INSURE MY HOME BECAUSE THE ROOF IS OLDER THAN 10 YEARS OLD.

THESE ARE THE STRUGGLES THAT WE'RE ALL DEALING WITH, WHILE WE'RE TRYING TO PUT FOOD ON THE TABLE.

THERE'S ANOTHER EXAMPLE, $250 USED TO FILL MY CART UP AT THE GROCERY STORE.

NOW IT'S BARELY SKIMMING THE BOTTOM.

PEOPLE ARE HURTING.

AND INSURANCE, HEALTHCARE COSTS ARE EXTREMELY EXPENSIVE IN THIS COUNTRY.

AND I THINK THAT'S THE CHANGE PEOPLE ARE LOOKING FOR.

WE JUST GOTTA DO BETTER TO LIVE.

I DON'T THINK MOST PEOPLE ARE LOOKING FOR HANDOUTS, I'M CERTAINLY NOT.

BUT JUST LOOKING FOR EVEN PLAYING FIELDS, WHEN IT COMES TO MONOPOLIES.

THERE'S NOTHING TO DRIVE DOWN COST IF WE DON'T HAVE COMPETITION.

WE SEE THAT OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

AND WE HAVE TO TALK ABOUT PRICE GOUGING.

KROGER ADMITTED TO INFLATING THEIR PRICES.

I SAW KELLOGG'S DID IT WHEN I WORKED THERE.

>> YOU LED A STRIKE.

>> YES.

I LED THE STRIKE AT KELLOGG'S.

>> WHICH LEADS ME TO THE POST MORTEM.

DONALD TRUMP AND REPUBLICANS WALK IN A MANDATE.

BUT IT'S NOT YET CLEAR THAT THEY HAVE HEARD WHAT THE VOTERS SEEM TO HAVE BEEN WANTING TO APPEAL TO AND FOR.

IN THE FUTURE.

AND WE DEFINITELY DIDN'T HEAR THAT, IT TURNS OUT, FROM KAMALA HARRIS AND THE DEMOCRAT SIDE.

THAT IS NOT THE GENDER DIVIDE THAT MANY THOUGHT WE'D SEE IN THIS ELECTION CYCLE, BUT REALLY THE CLASS DIVIDE.

THAT SEEMS TO HAVE REALLY SURPRISED PEOPLE.

YOU'VE HONED IN ON THAT.

TALK ABOUT THE LESSONS LEARNED FOR BOTH PARTIES GOING FORWARD.

>> THAT'S ABSOLUTELY RIGHT, RIGHT?

I MEAN, THE MIDDLE CLASS MAKES UP THE BULK OF THE POPULATION.

AND THE BULK OF THE VOTERS.

SO WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT MIDDLE --YOU KNOW, WORKERS' ISSUES, YOU HAVE TO TALK ABOUT SOCIAL SECURITY.

THAT GOES IN THERE.

BUT WORKERS, IF YOU ABANDON THEM, WE SEE WHAT HAPPENS.

AND NOW --BUT WORKERS ARE NEVER GOING TO STOP.

TRYING TO GET A SEAT AT THE TABLE.

LIKE WE SEE, MILK BONE WENT ON STRIKE IN BUFFALO, THEY'RE OWNED BY SMUCKERS.

AND SMUCKERS HAS WHAT?

$8 BILLION IN SALES LAST YEAR?

AND ALL THOSE FOLKS WANT IS HEALTH COVERAGE.

BECAUSE LIFE IS EXPENSIVE.

THE WORKER IS ALWAYS GOING TO STAND UP FOR THEMSELVES AND ALWAYS TRY TO PICK THE RIGHT PEOPLE THEY THINK IS GOING TO HELP THEM OUT.

>> YEAH.

WELL, LISTEN, YOU HAVE A FASCINATING PERSONAL STORY, A VETERAN OF THE NAVY AND ARMY NATIONAL GUARD.

YOU WENT BACK AS A STEAM FITTER.

AS YOU I, YOU HAVE TO WORK TO PAY THE BILLS AND PUTTING TOGETHER A POLITICAL ACTION COMMITTEE.

DAVEN OSBORN, I WOULD IMAGINE, THERE IS STILL POLITICS IN YOUR FUTURE.

PERHAPS WE WILL SEE YOU ON THE CAMPAIGN ROAD AGAIN.

BUT THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME AND FOR SPEAKING TO US.

APPRECIATE IT.

BEST OF LUCK.

>> THANK YOU.

I APPRECIATE IT.

THANK YOU.

> >> WELL, WHEN JANUARY 6th, SHOOK AMERICA.

FORMER HOMELAND SECURITY OFFICIAL PAUL ROSENZWEIG SPOKE.

NOW, NEAR HE FOUR YEARS ON, TRUMP IS RETURNS TO THE WHITE HOUSE AS PRESIDENT.

AND HAS VOWED TO GO AFTER POLITICAL RIVALS.

THIS COULD INCLUDE THOSE WHO HAVE SPOKESSEN OUT AGAINST THEM.

AND ROSEN ZWEIG ARGUES.

HE JOINS MICHELLE MARTIN TO DISCUSS HIS CONCERNS.

>> THANKS, BIANNA.

PAUL ROSEN ZWEIG.

THANKS FOR COMING ON.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> YOU SAY BIDEN HAS ACCESS TO PARDONS AND SHOULD USE IT.

>> THERE ARE A LARGE NUMBER OF 52EM WHO OPPOSE PRESIDENT TRUMP'S RE-ELECTION, AGAINST WHOM THE PRESIDENT-ELECT HAS THREATENED LEGAL VENGEANCE.

HE HAS THREATENED TO UNLEASH THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE TO INVESTIGATE AND PROSECUTE HIS ENEMIES.

HE'S ACCUSED SOME OF THEM OF TREASON.

HE'S ACCUSED MANY OF OTHERS OF BREAKING THE LAW.

AND EVEN THOUGH THOSE SORTS OF PROSECUTIONS ARE UNLIKELY IN THE LONG RUN TO BE SUCCESSFUL IN THE COURTS, THE EXPENSE AND PRESSURE OF BEING UNDER INVESTIGATION IS ITSELF A SIGNIFICANT COST.

AND SO PRESIDENT BIDEN OUGHT TO CONSIDER GRANTING PARDONS LIBERALLY TO THOSE OF HIS SUPPORTERS WHO ARE IN THE CROSS- HAIRS OF DONALD TRUMP'S VENGEANCE CAMPAIGN.

>> YOU SAID HE SHOULD PARDON ALL OF TRUMP'S MOST PROMINENT CRITICS?

YOU TALKING ABOUT LIZ CHENEY, THE FORMER CONGRESSWOMAN?

MILITARY LEADERS, FORMER CHIEF OF STAFF, JOHN KELLY.

WRITERS, LIKE BILL CRYSTAL?

DO YOU HAVE A NUMBER IN MIND OF HOW MANY PEOPLE YOU THINK HE SHOULD CONSIDER?

>> I DON'T THINK IT'S A HUGE NUMBER.

YOU'VE NAMED SOME OF THE MOST PROMINENT TRUMP CRITICS, WHO HE HAS EXPRESSLY THREATENED.

HE'S NEVER THREATENED ME, SO I DON'T THINK I NEED A PARDON, FOR EXAMPLE.

BUT I DO THINK THAT HE HAS EXPRESSED A WILLINGNESS TO USE THE LEGAL SYSTEM AGAINST NOT JUST REPUBLICANS BUT SOME OF HAS DEMOCRATIC OPPONENTS.

LIKE NANCY PELOSI AND ADAM SCHIFF.

WHOM HE HAS CALLED CRIMINALS AND HAS THREATENED TO BRING TO JUSTICE.

AND OBVIOUSLY, HIS NOMINATION OF MATT GAETZ AS THE ENFORCER AND CHIEF ATTORNEY GENERAL.

KIND OF GIVES THAT HE MEANS IT MOST SERIOUSLY.

>> SOME WHO ARE OUTSIDE OF HIS REALM, THEY TAKE HIM LITERALLY BUT NOT SERIOUSLY.

BUT YOUR ARGUMENT IS THAT THIS SHOULD BE TAKEN BOTH SERIOUSLY AND LITERALLY?

>> WELL, I THINK THAT DONALD TRUMP'S HISTORY OVER THE LAST EIGHT YEARS GIVES US EVIDENCE OF THAT.

THE SAME PEOPLE WHO SAID, DON'T TAKE HIM SERIOUSLY, SAID THAT ABOUT HIS CALLS ON JANUARY 6th, FOR WILD BEHAVIOR.

AND YET IT BECAME BOTH LITERAL AND SERIOUS AND AN ASSAULT ON THE CAPITOL.

WHEN HE SAID, I'M GOING TO GIVE RFK JR. CART BLANCHE OVER THE HEALTHCARE OF THE UNITED STATES, PEOPLE SAID, OH, THAT'S NOT SERIOUS, IT'S NOT LITERAL.

AND YET HE'S ANNOUNCED HIS INTENTION TO NOMINATE RFK JR. TO BE HEAD OF HHS.

HERE'S ANNOUNCED HIS INTENTION TO NOMINATE A NUMBER OF CABINET MEMBERS, NONE OF WHOM SHOULD BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY, EXCEPT THAT THEY WILL SERIOUSLY HAVE THESE RESPONSIBILITIES.

MATT GAETZ HAS SAID THAT HE INTENDS TO FIGURATIVELY BREAK HEADS, I THINK, WAS THE QUOTE, AT THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE.

THAT'S --YOU KNOW, AT SOME POINT, YOU HAVE TO ACCEPT THAT WHAT TRUMP SAYS HE MEANS IS WHAT HE ACTUALLY INTENDS TO DO.

>> YOU SAY THAT DEMOCRATS IN IT BEING HAVE TREATED TRUMP AS, QUOTE, AN ABERRATION AND NOT A PHENOMENON?

CAN YOU EXPLAIN WHAT YOU MEAN BY THIS?

AND WHY YOU THINK THIS SHIFT OF THINKING NEEDS TO TAKE PLACE?

>> WELL, I AM OF THE VIEW THAT TRUMP'S CRITICS, AND I INCLUDE MYSELF AMONGST THEM, HAVE MADE A STRATEGIC ERROR.

WHEN HE FIRST CAME ON THE SCENE.

HE THOUGHT HE WAS JUST AN ABERRATION.

THAT IS A BLACK SWAN PHENOMENA, THAT WOULD COME AND PASS AWAY.

AND IF YOU THINK THAT THAT'S WHAT SOMEBODY IS OR SOME PHENOMENA IS, THEN YOU DON'T CHANGE YOUR BEHAVIOR.

YOU THINK, THIS, TOO, SHALL PASS.

AND WE SHOULD MAINTAIN STANDARDS, MAINTAIN OUR FIDELITY TO NORMS OF BEHAVIOR.

THIS IS WHAT MICHELLE OBAMA MEANT WHEN SHE SAID, WHEN THEY GO LOW, WE GO HIGH.

WE'RE GOING TO STAY UP HERE AND TREAT AMERICA LIKE AMERICA.

BUT WHAT HAS BECOME CLEAR OVER THE LAST EIGHT YEARS, TO ME, AT LEAST, AND MOST --SALIENTLY, OF COURSE, WITH TRUMP'S RE- ELECTION, EARLIER THIS MONTH.

IS THAT HE IS NOT AN ABERRATION.

HE'S A PHENOMENA.

HE'S A MOVEMENT.

AND HIS MOVEMENT ENGAGES IN NORM-BREAKING BEHAVIOR.

YOU KNOW, NOMINATING PEOPLE, MAN FIRSTLY UNQUALIFIED TO LEAD THE GOVERNMENT.

NOT BECAUSE HE REALLY WANTS THEM TO LEAD THE GOVERNMENT, BUT BECAUSE HE WANTS THEM TO BREAK THE GOVERNMENT.

AND IF YOU THINK THAT'S WHO HE IS.

IF YOU THINK THAT'S WHAT TRUMP IS ABOUT, THEN YOU HAVE TO CHANGE HOW YOU RESPOND IN KIND.

HAVE YOU TO START USING ALL OF YOUR COUNTER LEVERS OF POWER AS AGGRESSIVELY AS YOU REASONABLY CAN.

WITHIN THE BOUNDS OF LAW.

EVEN IF IT IS NOT "NORMAL BEHAVIOR" AS WE WOULD HAVE THOUGHT ABOUT IT 10 YEARS AGO.

>> IS THERE A WAY THAT YOU THOUGHT THAT BOLDER MEASURES ARE NEEDED TO COUNTERACT THIS PHENOMENON THAT MADE YOU THINK, WELL THIS IS IT?

>> FOR ME, IT WAS JANUARY 6th.

BEFORE THAT, I WAS OF THE VIEW, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT IT WAS REALLY A BAD IDEA, PRUDENTIALLY, TO PROSECUTE A FORMER PRESIDENT.

THAT EVEN THOUGH YOU COULD DO SO, WE SHOULDN'T BECAUSE WE DIDN'T WANT TO BECOME LIKE OTHER COUNTRIES, WHERE EVERY TURN OF THE POLITICAL WHEEL RESULTED IN A PROSECUTION OF THE FORMER OFFICE FOLD.

JANUARY 6th MADE IT CLEAR TO ME, AND I THINK TO MUCH OF THE COUNTRY, THOUGH APPARENTLY NOT A MAJORITY, THAT DONALD TRUMP WAS INTENT UPON BREAKING THE SYSTEM, AS MUCH AS HE WAS ABOUT UPHOLDING IT.

AND THAT IF THE SYSTEM WAS GOING TO SUSTAIN ITSELF, IT HAD TO RESPOND IN KIND.

SO FOR ME, THAT MOMENT MADE ME CHANGE THAT PARTICULAR ASPECT OF MY BELIEF AND SUPPORT THE SUBSEQUENT PROSECUTIONS OF TRUMP, PARTICULARLY THE VIOLATIONS OF ACTIONS ON JANUARY 6th.

AND YEAH.

FOR OTHER PEOPLE, IT MIGHT BE DIFFERENT AT TIMES.

BUT I THINK, FOR EXAMPLE, A NUMBER OF MY FRIENDS, SEE HIS NOMINATION OF TULSI GABBARD, A RUSSIAN APOLOGIST, IF YOU WILL, TO THE INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY, AS ONE OF THOSE BREAKING THE PARADIGM MOMENTS THAT CALLS FOR BREAKING YOUR OWN RESPONSE PARADIGM.

>> YOU'VE ALSO WRITTEN THAT IT HAS BECOME PAINFULLY SELF- EVIDENT THAT DEMOCRATIC SELF- RESTRAINT IS A FORM OF UNILATERAL DISARMAMENT.

CAN YOU SAY MORE ABOUT WHY YOU THINK THIS SELF RESTRAINT HAS HINDERED DEMOCRATS AND OTHERS WHO FIND TRUMP'S BEHAVIOR OBJECTIONABLE.

NOT JUST OBJECTIONABLE.

BUT DANGEROUS.

>> WELL, CONSIDER THE ARC OF THE BIDEN PRESIDENCY.

WHEN PRESIDENT BIDEN TOOK OFFICE.

HE HAD TWO PATHS HE COULD TAKE.

ONE WAS THE NORMAL PATH OF LEGISLATING AROUND TRADITIONAL DEMOCRATIC PRIORITIES, EXPANDING HEALTHCARE, INFLATION REDUCTION ACTS.

THE BIPARTISAN ACT.

OR HE COULD HAVE TREATED THIS AS A CRITICAL MOMENT, IN WHICH THE LEGISLATIVE PRIORITY SHOULD HAVE --COULD HAVE BEEN STRENGTHENING THE ELECTRICAL GUARDRAILS AGAINST TRUMP'S STRENGTH.

LIMITING THE POSSIBILITIES FOR AN EXECUTIVE TO EXERCISE UNILATERAL POWER.

HE CHOSE THE FORMER OF THOSE PATHS.

AS DID THE DEMOCRATIC MAJORITY FOR THE FIRST TWO YEARS OF THIS PRESIDENCY.

THAT WAS, IN LARGE PART, BECAUSE THEY COULDN'T BRING THEMSELVES TO BELIEVE.

AND IN FACT, NOR COULD I, COULDN'T BRING HIMSELF TO BELIEVE THAT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE WOULD RETURN TO THE ABERRATION OF DONALD TRUMP AND MAKE HIM A PHENOMENON.

THEY DIDN'T DO THINGS THAT WOULD HAVE STRENGTHENED THEIR ABILITY TO RESIST TRUMPIAN EXCESS.

THINGS LIKE LIMITING MILITARY POWERS.

THINGS LIKE INSULATING AGAINST WHAT TRUMP HAS NOW PROPOSED, WHICH IS A WHOLESALE FIRING OF DISLOYAL GENERALS.

ADOPTING A LAW, PROPOSING TO BRING IN TWO MORE STATES THAT WOULD HAVE GIVEN THEM FOUR MORE DEMOCRATIC SENATORS.

ALL OF THOSE WOULD HAVE BEEN EXTREME THINGS THAT WE WOULD HAVE THOUGHT UNNECESSARY UP UNTIL A FEW YEARS AGO.

BUT NOW, IN THE FACE OF DONALD TRUMP'S PROMISES, SEEM PAL POSSIBLY ESSENTIAL.

>> YOU SAY THAT DEMOCRATS NEED TO CONSIDER, UNPRECEDENTED LEGAL TACTICS AT THIS POINT.

SO THE TRAIN HAS LEFT THE STATION, WHEN IT IT COMES TO SOME OF THE THINGS THAT THEY COULD HAVE DONE, WHEN THE DEMOCRATS HAD NOT ONLY THE WHITE HOUSE.

BUT THEY ALSO HAD THE SENATE.

THEY DON'T HAVE ANY OF THOSE THINGS NOW.

SO NOW WHAT SHOULD THEY DO?

AND WHEN YOU SAY, "RESPONDING IN KIND," WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

>> THERE'S A HOST OF THINGS RANGING FROM LARGE TO SMALL.

A SMALL EXAMPLE.

I THINK THAT PRESIDENT BIDEN SHOULD CONSIDER NOT ATTENDING DONALD TRUMP'S INAUGURATION.

>> HMM.

>> BECAUSE DOING SO, SENDS A SYMBOLIC MESSAGE OF NORMALIZING TRUMP.

AND HE SHOULDN'T BE NORMALIZED.

THAT'S A SMALL THING.

IT'S A NORM-BREAKER, IT'S NOT A HUGE LIFT.

THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION, AND THE TIME THAT IS LEFT TO IT, SHOULD CONSIDER DOING EVERYTHING IT POSSIBLY CANNING TO STRENGTHEN THE UKRAINIAN HAND.

BECAUSE WE KNOW THE FIRST THING THAT TRUMP WILL DO WHEN HE TAKES OFFICE, IS SELL THAT POOR COUNTRY OUT TO VLADIMIR PUTIN.

GOING FORWARD, I THINK THAT SOME OF THE THINGS THAT WE ARE ALREADY STARTING TO SEE, LIKE WITH GOVERNOR NEWSOM AND GOVERNOR PRITZKER IN CALIFORNIA AND ILLINOIS.

STRENGTHENING STATE LAWS, AS RESISTERS TO FEDERAL ACTIVITY.

THAT'S NOT SOMETHING THAT WE WOULD HAVE EVER THOUGHT SHOULD BE DONE.

THAT A STATE SHOULD PASS LAWS, RESISTING THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT AND TRYING TO UNDERMINE FEDERAL AUTHORITY.

BUT NOW, IT SEEMS A REASONABLE STEP TO TAKE, IN ORDER TO ERECT AS MANY BARRIERS AS POSSIBLE, TO, FOR EXAMPLE, TRUMP'S THREAT TO USE THE NATIONAL GUARD, TO DEPORT ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS.

A STATE LAW, FOR EXAMPLE, PROHIBITING ANY STATE'S NATIONAL GUARD FROM BEING FEDERALIZED FOR THAT PURPOSE, WOULD BE AN EXTREME STEP.

BUT ONE THAT MAY VERY WELL BE CONSIDERED NECESSARY.

>> WHAT DO YOU SAY TO PEOPLE THAT SAY, LOOK, IF THE DEMOCRATS AND OTHER PEOPLE WHO CRITICIZE DONALD TRUMP ENGAGED IN THAT CONDUCT, THEN OUR CIVIC SPACE IS FURTHER CORRUPTED, WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THAT?

>> I SAY THEY'RE RIGHT.

AND I WAS WITH THEM AT THE START.

THE VERY FIRST ARTICLE I EVER WROTE ABOUT DONALD TRUMP, WAS ENTITLED, DEFENDING NORMS BY DEFENDING NORMS.

AND IT WAS ARGUING FOR THE STYLE OF THINKING THAT I'VE CHARACTERIZED AS THE ORIGINAL STRATEGIC ERROR.

AND I SAY THAT WE'RE RIGHT.

IF WE TRANSGRESS NORMS ON MY SIDE OF THE ARGUMENT.

THE WORLD --WE'RE GOING TO PORTION THE DEBATE.

BUT IT STRIKES ME AS HIGHLY LIKELY, THAT DONALD TRUMP IS TO BREAK THE SENATE.

AND IF THE SENATE DOESN'T FIGHT BACK AS MUCH AND AS STRONGLY AS IT CAN, IT WILL LOSE ITS POWER.

AND WE'LL BE AT A PLACE, IN TWO YEARS, WHERE IT'S JUST A RUBBER STAMP.

IT SEEMS TO ME THAT IT'S A RISKY MOVE.

I ADMIT THAT COMPLETELY.

BUT IT SEEMS ALMOST ESSENTIAL AT THIS POINT.

BECAUSE IF WE DON'T DO IT, YOU KNOW, THE HOUSE WILL BURN DOWN.

>> YOU'VE POINTED TO GOING TO FORD'S PARDON.

AND CARTER'S PARDON OF PEOPLE WHO AVOIDED THE DRAFT.

THERE ARE THOSE WHO SEE IT AS A GESTURE TOWARD NATIONAL RECONCILIATION.

I WONDER IF YOU SEE YOUR ARGUMENT TO THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION THAT THEY SHOULD EMBRACE THIS.

DO YOU SEE IT IN THAT REALM OR AS SOMETHING ELSE?

>> WELL, I SEE IT PARTIALLY IN THAT REALM.

I MEAN, THE IDEA OF PARDONS TO BRING NATIONAL PEACE HAS A LONG HISTORY.

WASHINGTON --GEORGE WASHINGTON PARDONED THE WHISKEY REBELS IN THE WHISKEY REBELLION.

IN THE AFTERMATH OF THE CIVIL WAR, ANDREW JOHNSON PARDONED THE CONFEDERATE SOLDIERS.

NOT THE LEADERS.

HE EVEN PARDONED SAMUEL MUDD.

AFTER BOOTH ASSASSINATED LINCOLN.

SO TO SOME DEGREE, THIS IS AN EFFORT TO MAKE PEACE.

BUT TO ANOTHER DEGREE, I THINK IT'S SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT.

IT'S THE PARDON TO DO JUSTICE IN RESPONSE TO UNJUST ACTIONS BY THE GOVERNMENT, BY PROSECUTING AUTHORITIES.

RIGHT?

WE HAVE A HISTORY OF THAT AS WELL.

FOR EXAMPLE, JACK JOHNSON, THE AFRICAN AMERICAN BOXER, WAS PROSECUTED FOR THE MAN ACT, FOR PROSECUTING WHO HAPPENED TO BE HIS WIFE.

THIS WILL ALSO PARTAKE, I THINK, IF BIDEN DOES WHAT I RECOMMEND, WHICH I'M GUESSING HE WON'T DO, BUT WE'LL SEE.

BUT IF HE DOES WHAT I SAY, IF HAS THAT ASPECT OF PREVENTING WILLIE CONWAY, ADAM SCHIFF, NANCY PELOSI, FROM BEING IMPROPERLY AND UNJUSTLY TARGETED, WITH THE FULL MIGHT OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

>> YOU DON'T REALLY THINK HE'S GOING TO DO IT.

BUT YOU HAVE SAID, THIS IS THE NOT TIME TO HOLD BACK.

THIS IS THE TIME TO TAKE BOLD ACTION.

I'M JUST WONDERING IF YOU FEEL AT ALL SURPRISED BY YOUR OWN POINT OF VIEW ON THIS.

YOU WERE SPEAKING ABOUT YOUR OWN LAWYERLY RESTRAINT.

BUT WHAT YOU ARE SUGGESTING IS, IN FACT, A VERY RADICAL THING.

FOR AT LEAST ESTABLISHMENT WASHINGTON.

IS THERE ANY PART OF YOU THAT IS SURPRISED BY THAT?

>> ALL OF IT.

ALL OF IT.

TIAM NOT ONLY A WASHINGTON LAWYER, AND TRADITIONAL LAWYER.

I AM A TRADITIONAL CONSERVATIVE WASHINGTON LAWYER.

I WORKED FOR PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH AS A POLITICAL APPOINTEE IN THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY.

IN 1983, I JOINED THE FED FEDERALIST SOCIETY.

THIS IS NOT WHO I CONSIDER MYSELF TO BE.

STILL.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME, IT SEEMS TO ME, IMPOSSIBLE NOT TO RECOGNIZE THAT THE FACTS ON THE GROUND CHANGED.

WE'RE NOT ARGUING ABOUT, YEAH, WHAT THE RIGHT TAX POLICY IS.

OVER WHETHER THE EPA REGULATES BENZENE.

OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT ANYMORE.

WHAT IS CLEAR TO ME IS --YEAH, FRANKLY, THE SAME THING THAT BECAME CLEAR TO PEOPLE LIKE ME, LIKE LIZ CHENEY, THAT DONALD TRUMP IS TRANSGRESSIVE.

IN HIS NATURE.

HE IS A MOLD BREAKER.

AND IT'S IRRESPONSIBLE NOT TO SEE HIM AS WHAT HE TRULY IS.

AN EXISTENTIAL THREAT TO THE VERY FOUNDATIONS OF DEMOCRACY.

NOW, PEOPLE WILL SAY, THAT'S EXTREME.

AND I HOPE, LIKE HECK, THAT I AM OVERSTATING IT, OVERSTATING THE THREAT.

BUT I THINK OVER THE COURSE OF THE LAST EIGHT YEARS SAYS NOT.

AND THE COURSE OF THE LAST TWO WEEKS, SUPER SAYS NOT.

AS TRUMP BEGINS TO ROLL OUT HIS INITIATIVES FOR THE NEXT ADMINISTRATION.

AND WITH THAT IN MIND, IF YOU THINK THAT DEMOCRACY IS IMPORTANT, YOU HAVE TO STAND UP AND DEFEND IT.

YOU CAN'T OBEY IN ADVANCE.

YOU HAVE TO STAND UP AND STAND OUT.

>> PAUL ROSENZWEIG, THANK YOU FOR SPEAKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME ON.

> >> FINALLY, IT'S A JOURNEY THAT STARTED DECADES AGO IN A SMALL SPANISH VILLAGE IN MALLORCA.

NOW, RAFAEL NADAL IS HANGING UP HIS RACKET.

AND BIDDING AN EMOTIONAL FAREWELL TO THE END OF A GLITTERING CAREER.

HE'LL GO DOWN IN HISTORY AS THE KING OF CLAY.

LOSING ONLY THREE MATCHES AT THE FRENCH OPEN IN HIS ENTIRE CAREER.

> >> THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT IS COMING UP EACH NIGHT.

SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER.

JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.