November 21, 2024

[ MUSIC ] >> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR & COMPANY.

HERE IS WHAT IS COMING UP: >> THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT ISSUES ARREST WARRANTS FOR ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU.

HIS FORMER DEFENSE MINISTER AND A MOSSES OF MOHAMMED.

SO, WHAT DOES THIS MEAN FOR ISRAEL AND ITS REGIONAL WAR?

I ASK AN ISRAELI JOURNALIST WITH > >> THEN FORMER U. S. AMBASSADOR FOR WAR CRIMES ISSUES DAVID LAYS OUT THE LEGAL RAMIFICATIONS.

> >> AND AS THE DEATH TOLL IN GAZA SURPASSES 44,000 AND CIVILIANS AT THEIR FACE WIDESPREAD HUNGER AND DISEASE, A HUMANITARIAN JOINS US FROM THE GROUND.

> >> ALSO AHEAD, A CERTAIN IDEA OF AMERICA.

AUTHOR PEGGY TELLS WALTER ISAACSON ABOUT HER COLLECTION OF COLUMNS, EXPLORING THE ESSENCE OF THE UNITED STATES OVER THE LAST 25 YEARS.

>> [ MUSIC ] > >> AMANPOUR & COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WEIR, THE SYLVIA A AND SIMON B PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM, THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LAYLA AND MICKEY STRAUSS, MARK GLESSNER, THE FELLOWMEN FOUNDATION, J MELVIN, THE PETER G PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, PATRICIA U. N. , COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS, AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION BY VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

> >> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I AM IN NEW YORK, SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

IN A GROUNDBREAKING MOVE, THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT HAS ISSUED ARREST WARRANTS FOR ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU AND FORMER DEFENSE MINISTER FOR ALLEGED WAR CRIMES AND CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY IN GAZA.

THE COURT SAYS BOTH MEN BEAR CRIMINAL RESPONSIBILITY FOR CAUSING MASS STARVATION IN GAZA.

THIS IS THE FIRST TIME THE ICC HAS TARGETED THE LEADER OF A DEMOCRATIC COUNTRY AND A CLOSE ALLY OF THE UNITED STATES.

EVERY MEMBER OF THE ICC, WHICH INCLUDES THE UK AND MANY EUROPEAN COUNTRIES ARE NOW LEGALLY OBLIGED TO ARREST MR. NETANYAHU IF HE SETS FOOT ON THEIR TERRITORY, THAT IS MORE THAN 120 COUNTRIES.

THE COURT ALSO ISSUED AN ARREST WARRANT FOR HAMAS MILITARY LEADER MOHAMMED FOR CRIMES INCLUDING MURDER, TORTURE, AND HOSTAGETAKING.

ISRAEL SAYS HE WAS KILLED DURING AN AIR STRIKE EARLIER THIS YEAR.

THE COURT WAS ALSO SEEKING WARRANTS FOR HAMAS LEADERS, BUT THEY ARE NOW DEAD.

CHRISTIANE BROKE THE NEWS OF THE ICC'S PLANS BACK IN MAY.

HERE IS WHAT THE CHIEF PROSECUTOR TOLD HER THEN.

>> THE WARRANTS FOR PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU, AND ALSO MINISTER OF DEFENSE FOR CRIMES CAUSING EXTERMINATION , CAUSING STARVATION AS A METHOD OF WAR, INCLUDING THE DENIAL OF HUMANITARIAN RELIEF SUPPLIES, DELIBERATELY TARGETING CIVILIANS IN CONFLICT.

>> THE NETANYAHU'S OFFICE HAS RESPONDED SAYING THAT HE UTTERLY REJECTS THE ABSURD AND FALSE ACTIONS AND ACCUSATIONS CALLING THE BODY POLITICALLY BIASED AND DISCRIMINATORY.

SO, WHAT DOES THIS MEAN FOR ISRAEL?

I'M JOINED BY ISRAELI AUTHOR AND JOURNALIST FOR HA'ARETZ.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, DEFINITELY A DARK DAY FOR ISRAEL, GIVEN THE HISTORIC NATURE OF THESE CHARGES AND ARREST WARRANTS, BUT WE KNEW THAT NO -- SO, HOW MUCH OF A SURPRISE IS THIS FOR THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT, FOR THE ISRAELI PEOPLE ?

THE LAST SIX MONTHS, BOTH ISRAEL AND THE UNITED STATES, WE SHOULD NOTE, HAVE BEEN PUTTING EXTREME PRESSURE ON ICC TO AVOID JUSTICE.

>> WELL, THIS IS THE KIND OF THING THAT EVEN IF YOU EXPECTED IT, IS SUCH A GUT PUNCH THAT IT IS STILL A SHOCK FOR ISRAEL, OBVIOUSLY FOR THE LEADERSHIP OF THIS COUNTRY, AND WHILE THESE ARE ARREST WARRANTS ONLY FOR NOW AGAINST NETANYAHU AND FORMER DEFENSE MINISTER GALLANT, THERE IS AN EXPECTATION IN ISRAEL THAT COULD LEAD TO TWO THINGS.

POTENTIALLY MORE ARREST WARRANTS FOR OTHER PEOPLE INVOLVED IN THE CONDUCT OF THE WAR IN GAZA, AND NUMBER TWO, THE PHENOMENA WE HAVE ALREADY SEEN IN OTHER COUNTRIES, PARTICULARLY IN EUROPEAN COUNTRIES AND OTHERS, OF ATTEMPTS TO ISSUE LOCAL ARREST WARRANTS AGAINST ISRAELIS IN THE WAR IN GAZA, EVEN REGULAR SOLDIERS, NOT NECESSARILY HIGH RANKING OFFICERS, WILL RECEIVE A BOOST FROM THIS DECISION TODAY.

SO, THIS IS A CAUSE FOR GREAT CONCERN FOR ISRAEL AS A COUNTRY, AND ALSO FOR MANY, MANY ISRAELIS INDIVIDUAL, YOU CAN SAY, IN THE MILITARY, AND EVEN PEOPLE WHO CLAIM TO RATHER MINOR ROLES IN THE WAR IN GAZA, BUT NOW LOOK AT THIS NEWS , AND ASK THEMSELVES CAN I TRAVEL TO EUROPE IN THE COMING YEARS?

>> YEAH, AS WE NOTED, THERE ARE MORE THAN 120 SIGNATORIES TO THE ICC, THE U. S. AND ISRAEL NOT BEING ONE OF THEM, BUT JUST MOMENTS AGO, THE ITALIAN DEFENSE MINISTER SAID THAT IF BENJAMIN NETANYAHU CAME TO THEIR COUNTRY, THEY WOULD HAVE TO ARREST HIM.

FRANCE, IRELAND, AND HOLLAND HAVE ALSO SAID THAT THEY WOULD ABIDE BY THE RULING.

SO, TALK ABOUT THE RESPONSE -- WE HAVE THE PUBLIC STATEMENTS MADE BY PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU, YOAV GALLANT ALSO ISSUED A TWEET SAYING THE ICCS OUTRAGEOUS DECISION WILL LIVE IN INFAMY, IT PLACES ISRAEL AND THE BRUTAL TERRORIST ORGANIZATION HAMAS IN THE SAME EQUATION.

WE HAVE THE RESPONSES, BUT WHAT ARE YOU REPORTING AND WHAT ARE YOU HEARING ABOUT WHAT IS BEING DISCUSSED WITHIN THE GOVERNMENT NOW?

>> SO, LIKE YOU SAID, ON THE SURFACE, ISRAEL IS SPEAKING IN ONE VOICE.

YOU HEAR THE LEADERS OF THE OPPOSITION, YOU HEAR THEM DENOUNCING THIS DECISION, AND FORMER PRIME MINISTER JOINING RATHER STRONGLY AGAINST THE ICC, BUT THE QUESTION IS WHAT CAN ISRAEL DO NOW?

ON THE LEGAL LEVEL, THERE IS AN OPTION TO APPEAL.

MAYBE ISRAEL WILL TRY THAT.

OF COURSE, BY APPEALING, YOU GIVE LEGITIMACY TO THE DECISION, SO THAT IS A BIG QUESTION.

IF YOU WANT TO GO DOWN THAT ROUTE.

AND THE CHANCE OF SUCCESS ARE NOT VERY HIGH.

THE OTHER OPTION THAT ISRAEL WILL CERTAINLY TRY IS TO GET THE UNITED STATES TO APPLY A LOT OF PRESSURE AND PAIN ON THE ICC.

AND THE UNITED STATES IS NOT COMMITTED TO THE ICC AND WE HAVE ALREADY HEARD SENATORS FROM BOTH THE REPUBLICAN AND THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY IN THE U. S. THREATENING TO PUT SANCTIONS ON ICC AS AN INSTITUTION, AND ON INDIVIDUALS WHO WERE INVOLVED IN THIS DECISION, WHETHER IT IS THE PROSECUTOR OR THE JUDGES AND OTHERS.

BUT THERE IS A QUESTION OF WHETHER THAT PRESSURE WILL ACTUALLY LEAD TO A CHANGE IN THE RESULT, WHICH IS THE ISSUE OF THESE ARREST WARRANTS, AND THE FACT THAT MORE THAN 120 COUNTRIES ARE GOING TO RESPECT THEM.

THAT IS A BIG IF.

HE WOULD NEED THE U. S. TO EXERT A LOT OF PRESSURE ON THE COURT ITSELF, AND THAT COULD ALSO BACKFIRE.

THE COURT COULD SAY, WELL, WE ARE NOT GOING TO LET ANYTHING RUIN OUR INDEPENDENCE, AND THE OTHER OPTION IS THAT THE U. S. WOULD APPROACH THESE COUNTRIES INDIVIDUALLY AND TELL THEM IF YOU RESPECT THE DECISION OF THE COURT AND YOU GO ALONG WITH RESPECTING THESE ARREST WARRANTS, THERE WILL BE CONSEQUENCES TO YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH THE UNITED STATES, AND THEN WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IS ICC AS AN INSTITUTION WOULD NO LONGER BE RELEVANT, BECAUSE IF THE ARREST WARRANT FOR NETANYAHU IS NOT BEING HONORED IN FRANCE FOR EXAMPLE, THEN THE ARREST WARRANT AGAINST VLADIMIR PUTIN, WHICH WAS ISSUED A YEAR AND A HALF AGO, COULD NOT BE VALID IN A DIFFERENT COUNTRY THAT ONCE CLOSER RELATIONSHIP WITH RUSSIA.

AND I HAVE TO REMIND YOU, THE ICC IS ALSO CONDUCTING INVESTIGATIONS RIGHT NOW REGARDING VENEZUELA, SUDAN, SO THIS IS A VERY COMPLICATED SITUATION.

AND WHATEVER HAPPENS NEXT, IT IS NOT GOING TO BE AN EASY SOLUTION OUT OF THIS FOR ISRAEL.

EVEN IF YOU SEE MASSIVE AMERICAN PRESSURE, IT COULD TAKE TIME TO HAVE AN IMPACT, AND IT WILL HAVE ITS OWN CONSEQUENCES ON OTHER PRIORITIES OF THE UNITED STATES.

>> YEAH, AND YOU MENTIONED VLADIMIR PUTIN TRAVELING, HE DID RECENTLY TRAVELED TO MONGOLIA, WHICH IS A SIGNATORY TO THE ICC, AND HE WAS NOT ARRESTED.

BUT I GET THE POINT.

>> AGAIN, THIS IS PART OF THE ISSUE HERE.

THERE IS A BIG QUESTION THAT ALSO HAS TO DO WITH THE WAR IN UKRAINE, WITH THIS INVESTIGATION IN VENEZUELA, AND ONE OPTION IS THAT THE END OF THE ROAD, THIS LEADS TO THE ICC COMPLETELY LOSING ITS INTERNATIONAL STANDING.

THAT IS A RISK ALSO FOR THE COURT IN ISSUING THIS ARREST WARRANT.

>> AND THE POINT THAT YOU ARE MAKING HERE , ALSO WHAT DIFFERENTIATES ISRAEL FROM LET'S SAY RUSSIA OR VENEZUELA, I MEAN, RUSSIA IS A DEMOCRACY BY NAME ONLY, WHEREAS ISRAEL IS A DEMOCRACY, WHICH HAS ITS OWN SUBSTANTIVE LEGAL AND INDEPENDENT JUDICIAL SYSTEM, WHICH HAD BEEN ONE OF THE ARGUMENTS , THAT BOTH ISRAEL AND THE UNITED STATES HAD BEEN MAKING THESE CHARGES AND ARREST WARRANTS, AND YET THAT WASN'T ENOUGH TO HAVE THE ICC COME UP WITH A DIFFERENT SOLUTION .

THESE ARREST WARRANTS HAVE NOW BEEN MADE PUBLIC.

WHAT DOES ISRAEL --WHAT ARE THEIR LEGAL OPTIONS, IN TERMS OF JUST APPEALING IT?

COULD ISRAEL THEN --BECAUSE I BELIEVE THE ATTORNEY GENERAL HIMSELF WARNED THE GOVERNMENT THIS SUMMER AND THERE HAD BEEN PRESSURE ON AN INTERNAL INVESTIGATION WITHIN ISRAEL, TOO.

>> YEAH, SO, THE DEBATE HERE IN ISRAEL BEFORE THIS NEWS BROKE OUT FOR SEVERAL MONTHS REVOLVED AROUND THE QUESTION OF HOW DOES ISRAEL ACTUALLY INVESTIGATE THE WAR IN GAZA TO PROVE TO THE ICC --AND BY THE WAY, ALSO THE ICJ, THE INTERNATIONAL COURT OF JUSTICE, THAT THERE IS NO NEED FOR THEM TO INTERVENE, BECAUSE ANY REPORTS OF POTENTIAL WAR CRIMES ARE BEING INVESTIGATED VERY SERIOUSLY WITHIN OUR SYSTEM.

AND WHILE THE URGENCY OF THIS WAS PRESENTED TO THE GOVERNMENT BY OUR ATTORNEY GENERAL AND BY THE HEAD LEGAL OFFICER OF OUR MILITARY, YOU DIDN'T REALLY SEE ACTION AT THE END OF THE DAY TO TRY TO CONVINCE THE WORLD THAT ACTUALLY, THESE THINGS WERE BEING TAKEN VERY SERIOUSLY INSIDE ISRAEL.

AND YOU CAN SEE FOR EXAMPLE -- THE EXAMPLE THAT HAPPENED, I THINK IN MARCH, WHEN YOU HAD SEVEN WORKERS OF THE WORLD CENTRAL KITCHEN ORGANIZATION KILLED IN GAZA ACCIDENTALLY BY THE IDF.

AND BACK THEN, BECAUSE MOST OF THEM WERE FOREIGN NATIONALS, INCLUDING I BELIEVE A BRITISH CITIZEN, AUSTRALIAN CITIZEN, THERE WAS A LOT OF PRESSURE FROM THE UNITED STATES.

ISRAEL IMMEDIATELY TOOK ACTION , TWO OFFICERS WHO WERE INVOLVED IN THIS INCIDENT WERE REMOVED FROM THE IDF, THERE WAS A SERIOUS INVESTIGATION, AND THAT WAS A CASE THAT SHOWED WHAT ISRAEL COULD DO IN ORDER TO TRY TO PUSH AWAY PRESSURE OR CRITICISM AROUND ITS CONDUCT.

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL WAS REALLY PLEADING WITH THE GOVERNMENT TO DO MUCH MORE ON THAT FRONT AND TO GIVE MANY MORE EXAMPLES LIKE THAT, AND TO SET UP A NATIONAL COMMISSION OF INQUIRY INTO THE OCTOBER 7th FAILURE, BUT ALSO INTO THE CONDUCT OF THE WAR.

THERE WAS A LOT OF DEBATE ABOUT IT, AND EVENTUALLY, IT NEVER HAPPENED.

SO, I THINK THE ATTORNEY GENERAL HAD A LITTLE BIT OF A TOLD YOU SO MOMENT IN FRONT OF THE GOVERNMENT, BUT IT DOESN'T REALLY MATTER AT THIS POINT, BECAUSE THE DAMAGE HAS BEEN DONE.

>> YOU KNOW, EARLIER THIS YEAR, FOLLOWING THE ANNOUNCEMENT OF THEM SEEKING THESE WARRANTS, BOTH ISRAEL AND THE UNITED STATES HAD CRITICIZED THE ICC FOR, AMONG OTHER REASONS, STATING THAT ISRAEL HAD INVITED THE ICC PROSECUTOR AND HIS STAFF TO VISIT ISRAEL FOR MEETINGS WITH OFFICIALS ABOUT THESE VERY CONCERNS, AND THAT THAT ULTIMATELY IT DIDN'T RESULT -- THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN.

IS THERE LEGITIMACY IN THIS?

WHAT HAVE THEY POSSIBLY HAVE CONVINCED HIM OF OTHERWISE?

>> SO, IT IS INTERESTING BEYOND, BECAUSE THE PROSECUTOR ACTUALLY VISITED ISRAEL IN THE BEGINNING OF THE WAR, SHORTLY AFTER OCTOBER 7th, AND I EVEN INTERVIEWED HIM AT THE TIME.

HE MET THE FAMILIES OF ISRAELI HOSTAGES, KIDNAPPED AND HELD BY HAMAS.

HE VISITED SOME OF THE COMMUNITIES THAT WERE DESTROYED BY HAMAS TERRORISTS ON OCTOBER 7th, AND THEN I GOT TO INTERVIEW HIM FOR HA'ARETZ AND ASK HIM WHAT HE SAW AND WHAT HE THOUGHT ABOUT THE SITUATION, AND HE SAID VERY CLEARLY THAT HE THINKS HAMAS --THEY ARE VERY LIKELY HAD COMMITTED CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY, AND I CAN TELL YOU, PEOPLE IN THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT WERE VERY POSITIVELY SURPRISED AT THE TIME BY HIS APPROACH DURING THAT VISIT.

I BELIEVE IT WAS IN NOVEMBER OR DECEMBER, AND THERE WAS THE SENSE THAT THIS WAS UNPRECEDENTED, BECAUSE ISRAEL DOES NOT WORK WITH THE ICC, AND HIS VISIT WAS NOT OFFICIAL, BUT IT WAS WITH THE KNOWLEDGE AND BLESSING OF THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT, BECAUSE THEY WANTED HIM TO SEE WITH HIS OWN EYES.

NOW, WHAT HE WOULD LATER SEE -- SAY, IS THAT HE ALSO ASKED FOR ARREST WARRANTS AGAINST THREE LEADERS OF HAMAS, AND THEREFORE HE DID TAKE INTO CONSIDERATION WHAT YOU SAW ON THE GROUND IN ISRAEL, BUT ISRAEL COMPLETELY REJECTED THE CLAIMS HE WAS MAKING HERE, TRYING TO COMPARE TERRORISTS LIKE MOHAMMED TO THE ELECTED LEADERS OF A DEMOCRATIC COUNTRY.

AND THAT WAS REALLY WHAT IT'S ALL ABOUT.

I THINK THERE WAS A SENSE HERE THAT THE PROSECUTOR DECIDED TO PUT THE TWO SIDES ON AN EQUAL STANDING, WHICH IS SOMETHING THAT ISRAEL AND THE UNITED STATES COMPLETELY REJECTED, AND I THINK, BY THE WAY, MANY OTHER COUNTRIES ALSO REJECTED, BUT ONCE THE ARREST WARRANTS ARE OFFICIAL, MANY OF THOSE COUNTRIES WILL STILL HAVE TO RESPECT THEM.

I THINK I SAW EARLIER A COMMENT BY THE AUSTRIAN FOREIGN MINISTER WHO CRITICIZED THE PROSECUTOR AND THE ICC FOR ISSUING THESE WARRANTS, CALL THEM ABSURD, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, SAID THAT HIS COUNTRY IS GOING TO RESPECT INTERNATIONAL LAW, BECAUSE THERE ARE OTHER INTERESTS INVOLVED, ESPECIALLY WITH THE RUSSIAN CASE OPEN AND THE SITUATION IN UKRAINE.

>> I'M YEAR, THERE IS A SENSE THAT THIS WILL NOW CAUSE A SORT OF RALLY AROUND THE FLAG, OR IN THIS CASE A RALLY AROUND NETANYAHU INTERNALLY FOR INCREASED SUPPORT AMONG ISRAELIS FOLLOWING THIS DECISION BY THE ICC , A DAHLIA, AN ISRAELI EXPERT IN INTERNATIONAL PUBLIC OPINION, TOLD THE GUARDIAN THIS, IT WILL STRENGTHEN NETANYAHU, ISRAELIS ARE ABSOLUTELY ROCK SOLID CONVINCED THAT THE INTERNATIONAL SYSTEM IN GENERAL BASICALLY EXISTS IN ORDER TO TARGET AND SINGLE OUT ISRAEL UNFAIRLY.

THAT KIND OF SENTIMENT CUTS ACROSS THE BOARD IN THE JEWISH COMMUNITY.

DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT SENTIMENT?

>> I THINK IN THE SHORT TERM, IT DEFINITELY WILL.

AND IT MAKES SENSE.

I MEAN, I HAVE BEEN A VERY STRONG CRITIC OF HIS, BUT I DON'T WANT HIM TO BE ARRESTED, THIS IS NOT SOMETHING THAT HAS TO DO WITH OUR OWN INTERNAL POLITICS.

A LOT OF ISRAELIS LOOK AT THIS AND SAY, OKAY, THIS IS PART OF A BROADER THING TO SINGLE OUT ISRAEL AS A COUNTRY.

SO, I THINK THERE WILL BE SOME KIND OF A SHORT-TERM IMPACT, BUT I THINK AFTER THAT KIND OF GOES DOWN, THERE WILL ALSO BE A LOT OF HARD QUESTIONS ABOUT HOW DID WE GET HERE, AND DID CERTAIN STATEMENTS --CERTAIN DECISIONS BY OUR OWN POLITICIANS, ESPECIALLY THE MORE FAR RIGHT ELEMENTS OF THIS GOVERNMENT CONTRIBUTE TO THIS INTERNATIONAL ATTACK, YOU COULD SAY COME ON IS REALLY LEGITIMACY, AND THERE WILL BE A HARD QUESTIONS ABOUT THE WARNINGS FROM THE ATTORNEY GENERAL AND HOW THEY WERE TREATED BY THE GOVERNMENT, AND IN GENERAL, I THINK EVERY ISRAELI IS GOING TO ASK, A YEAR AFTER OCTOBER 7th, THE BIGGEST MASSACRE OF THE JEWISH PEOPLE SINCE THE HOLOCAUST, AND AFTER THE FIRST FEW WEEKS WHEN THE WHOLE WORLD REALLY STOOD UP TO SUPPORT ISRAEL AND WE HAD JUST A TRAIN OF WORLD LEADERS COMING HERE ALL THE TIME, HOW DO WE GET TO A PLACE WHERE TODAY, WE ARE SO ISOLATED?

>> IT'S A STORY WE WILL CONTINUE TO COVER.

AMIR, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING THE PROGRAM, GOOD TO SEE YOU.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

> >> AS MENTIONED EARLIER, ALL 124 MEMBER STATES OF THE ICC ARE NOW LEGALLY OBLIGED TO ARREST BENJAMIN NETANYAHU AND FORMER DEFENSE MINISTER YOAV GALLANT IF THEY SET FOOT IN THEIR TERRITORY.

BUT WHETHER OR NOT THEY WILL ENFORCE IT IS ANOTHER THING.

VICE PRESIDENT OF THE EUROPEAN COMMISSION, JOSEPH, SAYS THE RULING IS NOT POLITICAL AND MUST BE RESPECTED AND IMPLEMENTED.

ALTHOUGH THE U. S. IS NOT A SIGNATORY, IT HAS PREVIOUSLY WELCOMED THE COURTS ARREST WARRANT FOR RUSSIAN PRESIDENT VLADIMIR PUTIN OVER ATROCITIES COMMITTED IN UKRAINE.

YET TODAY, THE WHITE HOUSE NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL SAYS IT FUNDAMENTALLY REJECTS THE BODY'S DECISION AND WILL BE DISCUSSING NEXT STEPS WITH THEIR PARTNERS, INCLUDING ISRAEL.

SO, HOW MUCH POWER DOES ICC HAVE, WHAT ARE THE LEGAL RAMIFICATIONS HERE?

DAVID IS A FORMER U. S. AMBASSADOR AT LARGE FOR WAR CRIMES ISSUES AND HE JOINS ME FROM WASHINGTON, D. C. DAVID, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

FIRST OF ALL, YOUR TAKE ON THIS RULING, ARE YOU SURPRISED AT ALL?

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH, BIANNA.

I AM NOT SURPRISED, HOWEVER I WOULD HAVE PREFERRED TO HAVE SEEN THIS UNFOLD SOMEWHAT DIFFERENTLY FROM THE COURT.

THE JUDGES HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO TAKE A VERY THOROUGH LOOK, AND THEY DID LOOK AT THE PROCEDURE BY WHICH THIS UNFOLDED, AND I THINK THAT IS WHERE THE CRUX OF THE MATTER IS FOR THE MOMENT.

THEY DECIDED THAT THE ARREST WARRANTS SHOULD GO AHEAD AND BE ISSUED , WHEREAS UNDER THE ROME STATUTE, THERE WAS SOMETHING CALLED ARTICLE 18, WHICH FRANKLY, WHEN I WAS NEGOTIATING THE ROME STATUTE FOR THE UNITED STATES IN THE 1990s, I ACTUALLY DRAFTED ARTICLE 18 AND GOT EVERYONE TO ACCEPT IT, WHICH IS YOU WILL ALERT A COUNTRY THAT IS UNDER SCRUTINY THAT THEY ARE BEING INVESTIGATED, AND YOU GIVE THEM AT LEAST A SIX MONTH PERIOD IN WHICH THE ICC BACKS OFF AND THE COUNTRY DEMONSTRATES THAT IT IS TAKING IT SERIOUSLY AND DOING ITS DUTY UNDER DOMESTIC CRIMINAL LAW TO LOOK AT THESE TYPES OF CHARGES.

THE PROBLEM WITH THIS CASE IS THAT --JUST PUTTING THE NATURE OF THE ATROCITY CRIMES ASIDE FOR A MOMENT OR THE ALLEGED ONES, THAT KIND OF NOTICE WAS NOT GIVEN TO ISRAEL .

WHY?

BECAUSE AN EARLIER NOTICE IN 2021 HAD BEEN GIVEN TO ISRAEL WHEN THE COURT STARTED TO LOOK AT THE SITUATION IN THE WEST BANK, AND THE PROSECUTOR DECIDED, WELL, YOU ONLY GET ONE SHOT AT SUCH A NOTICE.

I THINK BECAUSE OF THE CHARACTER OF WHAT HAPPENED ON OCTOBER 7th AND THE ANSWER TO THAT AND THE SELF-DEFENSE BY ISRAEL TO RESPOND TO WHAT HAPPENED ON OCTOBER 7th, 2023, THAT IT WOULD HAVE BEEN A REASONABLE EXERCISE OF THE PROSECUTOR'S DISCRETION TO ISSUE A NEW NOTICE TO ISRAEL, SAYING OKAY, THIS IS SERIOUS STUFF, THIS IS A WHOLE NEW BATTLEGROUND IN THE REGION.

I AM INVESTIGATING IT AFRESH, I'M GIVING YOU MY ARTICLE 18 NOTICE, WHAT IS YOUR RESPONSE?

AND THAT GOES TO WHAT YOUR FIRST GUESS REALLY SAID, WHICH I THOUGHT WAS SO HELPFUL, WHICH IS THE ATTORNEY GENERAL'S WARNING THAT, HEY, WE NEED TO LOOK AT THIS OURSELVES AND PROVE TO EVERYONE THAT WE ARE DOING IT OURSELVES , AS OPPOSED TO DELAYING IT, SO I JUST THINK IT IS IMPORTANT FOR ME TO POINT OUT THAT PROCEDURAL ISSUE THAT I DO THINK THERE WAS SOME SLIPPAGE IN THE COURTS REASONING AND ISSUING THESE ARREST WARRANTS THAT IS ASIDE FROM THE ACTUAL CHARACTER OF THE ALLEGED CRIMES.

>> AND IS IT UNDER THE PROSECUTOR'S DISCRETION AS TO HOW MANY NOTICES THEY CAN GIVE A PARTICULAR COUNTRY FOR ACTIONS THAT THEY COMMIT?

ONE WAS THE WEST BANK, AND OBVIOUSLY, THIS IS THE WAR IN GAZA FOLLOWING OCTOBER 7th.

>> YOU KNOW, YOU KIND OF HAVE TO APPLY A COMMON-LAW NOTION TO THE ICC.

WE DIDN'T NEGOTIATE THAT BACK IN THE 1990s AS TO HOW MANY TAKES HE HAS OR SHE HAS TO LAUNCH AN ARTICLE 18 NOTIFICATION.

WE ACTUALLY DIDN'T DECIDE THAT.

BUT I THINK WE DID GIVE THE PROSECUTOR DISCRETION, AND I DO THINK THAT THE PROPER DISCRETION WOULD HAVE BEEN IN MAY, OR EVEN EARLIER, GIVE ISRAEL THAT KIND OF NOTIFICATION, AND AT LEAST PROCEDURALLY ENABLE ISRAEL TO POSITION ITSELF WITH RESPECT TO WHAT THE PROSECUTOR WAS INVESTIGATING.

>> AND ONCE AGAIN, TO JUST REMIND OUR VIEWERS OF THE ALLEGED CRIMES HERE, IT IS BOTH WARRANTS FOR NETANYAHU AND GALLANT FOR CRIMES THEY ALLEGEDLY COMMITTED AGAINST HUMANITY DURING THE ISRAELI OFFENSIVE IN THE GAZA STRIP, INCLUDING THE USE OF STARVATION AS A WEAPON AND DIRECTING ATTACKS AGAINST CIVILIANS.

THE COURT SAID IT AND FIND GROUNDS FOR BRINGING A CHARGE OF EXTERMINATION AND THE FULL CONTEXT OF THE ARREST WARRANTS ARE CLASSIFIED AS SECRET.

IT IS INTERESTING THAT NOT ONLY DID THE UNITED STATES CONDEMN THESE ARREST WARRANTS, ONE OF THE ISSUES AND NOT CONDEMNATION WAS BAYVIEW A PROCESS ERROR LEADING TO THIS DECISION.

DO YOU KNOW WHAT THAT PROCESS ERROR WOULD BE?

>> YES.

EXACTLY WHAT I JUST DESCRIBED.

THE UNITED STATES ISSUED AN AMICUS BRIEF TO THE COURT, AS DID MANY GOVERNMENTS AND PARTIES.

THE JUDGES INVITED A WHOLE SLEW OF FRIEND OF THE COURT BRIEFS DURING THE SUMMER.

ISRAEL SUBMITTED A BRIEF, THE UNITED STATES SUBMITTED A BRIEF, AND MANY OF THOSE BRIEFS POINTED TO THE LACK OF FULL IMPLEMENTATION OF ARTICLE 18 AS IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN PROPERLY INTERPRETED.

SO, THAT IS A PROCESS ISSUE.

>> OKAY.

YOU SAID IN RESPONSE TO THESE ARREST WARRANTS THAT THE TRAVEL ITINERARIES OF BOTH PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU AND FORMER DEFENSE MINISTER GALLANT WILL BE GREATLY CIRCUMSCRIBED.

DID YOU REALLY ENVISION A SCENARIO WHERE THEY WOULD BE ARRESTED AMONG ALLIED MEMBERS AND COUNTRIES?

>> YOU KNOW, I HAVE TO SAY I HAVE TO ENVISION IT.

WE NEED TO TAKE SERIOUSLY HERE IN THE UNITED STATES THAT THOSE EUROPEAN, LATIN AMERICAN , SOME OF THE PACIFIC NATIONS WHICH ARE PARTY TO THE ROME STATUTE OF THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT ACTUALLY TAKE THEIR RESPONSIBILITIES VERY SERIOUSLY.

THEIR PUBLICS EXPECT THEM TO DO SO.

SO, I DON'T THINK ONE SHOULD SIT HERE AND SAY, OH, WELL, IF YOU LANDED IN ITALY, HOW COULD ITALY POSSIBLY ARREST HIM?

I CAN ENVISION THAT HAPPENING.

AND SO, I THINK THAT NEEDS TO BE TAKEN VERY SERIOUSLY BY THE ISRAELI OFFICIALS.

>> THE SIGNIFICANCE IN YOUR VIEW OF THESE WARRANTS COMING TO HEADS OF STATES COMING TO A DEMOCRATIC COUNTRY?

>> YEAH, WELL, THAT'S THE GREAT ISSUE, ISN'T IT?

AND THAT'S WHY ARTICLE 18 ACTUALLY EXISTS, BECAUSE IF YOU ARE A DEMOCRATIC COUNTRY LIKE ISRAEL WITH A SUPERB JUDICIARY, A GREAT SUPREME COURT, YOU CAN EASILY RESPOND TO SUCH A NOTIFICATION THAT SOME OF YOUR LEADERS HAVE INVESTIGATED, BY SAYING BACK OFF, YOU KNOW WHO WE ARE, WE ARE GOING TO DO OUR JOB AND WE ARE GOING TO DEMONSTRATE TO YOU THAT WE DO OUR JOB UNDER A NATIONAL CRIMINAL LAW, ET CETERA, TO DEMONSTRATE THIS.

AND SO, DEMOCRATIC GOVERNMENTS CAN DO THAT.

THE UNITED STATES CAN SURELY DO THAT IF WE FALL INTO ANY PARTICULAR SITUATION WHERE OUR MILITARY ACTIONS ON THE TERRITORY STATE PARTY TO THE COURT ARE CALLED INTO QUESTION, WE, TOO, CAN POINT TO WHAT WE CALL --THAT WE HAVE THE CAPABILITY TO DO THIS AND WE ARE GOING TO DEMONSTRATE TO YOU THAT WE ARE A RULE OF LAW DEMOCRATIC NATION AND WE KNOW WHAT WE ARE DOING TO ENSURE THAT THERE IS NO IMPUNITY FOR THE COMMISSION OF GENOCIDE, WAR CRIMES, OR CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY.

>> SO, WHEN PROSECUTOR KOHN AS HE SAID TO CHRISTIANE BACK IN MAY, SAYS NO ONE IS ABOVE THE LAW, AS IT RELATES TO THE REQUEST FOR THESE WARRANTS THAT HE WAS SEEKING BACK AT THAT TIME, YOUR RESPONSE IS WHAT?

>> YEAH, THERE IS NO SUCH IMMUNITY FROM IT.

THEY ARE WITHIN --KOHN IS SPEAKING FROM A POINT OF VIEW OF HE HAS GOT THE JURISDICTION TO ISSUE , OR SEEK THE ISSUANCE OF THESE ARREST WARRANTS.

ISRAEL OF COURSE DISAGREES WITH THAT BECAUSE THEY DON'T THINK THEY HAVE --ICC HAS ANY JURISDICTION OVER A NONPARTY STATE.

THE PROBLEM HERE IS THAT THE GAZA WAR IS ON THE TERRITORY OF A STATE PARTY, THE STATE OF PALESTINE.

AS RECOGNIZED AS SUCH BY THE COURT AND BY MORE THAN 140 COUNTRIES, THE STATE OF PALESTINE .

AND SO THEREFORE, HE CAN --I THINK WITH CONSIDERABLE CONFIDENCE, CONSIDER THE ACTIONS OF THE ISRAELI DEFENSE FORCES IN GAZA , AND THUS REACH A DECISION THAT CERTAIN ARREST WARRANTS ARE MERITED WITH RESPECT TO THE CONDUCT.

HE HAS THAT AUTHORITY AND DISCRETION AS HE INTERPRETS IT.

>> AND NOW, THE QUESTION IS , WHAT, IF ANYTHING, WILL THE UNITED STATES DO?

OBVIOUSLY, WE HAD PRESIDENT BIDEN AND WE READ THE STATEMENT FROM HIS ADMINISTRATION, CONDEMNING THESE ARREST WARRANTS, AND PRESIDENT BIDEN HAD DONE SO EARLIER, BUT WE ARE NOW SEEING REPUBLICANS , AND THEY WILL HAVE CONTROL OF THE SENATE AND THERE IS AN INCOMING REPUBLICAN ADMINISTRATION, WHO ARE SAYING LET'S TAKE THIS A STEP FURTHER AND ACTUALLY THREATEN SANCTIONS AGAINST THE ICC.

IS THAT SOMETHING YOU WOULD SUPPORT?

>> I WOULD EXPRESS EXTREME CAUTION ABOUT THAT.

AND THE REASON IS THIS, FIRST, BACK IN THE EARLY 2000'S, UNDER THE GEORGE W. BUSH ADMINISTRATION, THE LAW OF THE AMERICAN SERVICE PROTECTION ACT WAS ADOPTED, WHICH HAD ALL SORTS OF SANCTIONS AGAINST COUNTRIES THAT EVEN DARED TO JOIN THE ICC.

WE FOUND THAT IN OUR RELATIONSHIPS WITH THOSE COUNTRIES, THAT WAS SO DAMAGING TO OUR OWN NATIONAL SECURITY INTERESTS THAT THOSE SANCTIONS WERE LIFTED UNDER THE LAW.

THERE ARE NO LONGER ANY ECONOMIC OR MILITARY SANCTIONS UNDER THAT PARTICULAR LAW, BECAUSE IT WAS DETERMINED IT IS SIMPLY A LOSING PROPOSITION FOR THE UNITED STATES , AND ALL OF ITS MANY SECURITY EQUITIES AND ECONOMIC EQUITIES THAT IT HAS AROUND THE WORLD .

IN THIS CASE, IF THERE ARE SANCTIONS, LET'S SAY THIS IS EARLIER, YEARS AGO, AGAINST THE PROSECUTOR AT THE TIME OF THE ICC, THE PROBLEM WITH DOING TARGETED SANCTIONS LIKE THAT AGAINST INDIVIDUALS, FOR EXAMPLE, IS THAT SO MANY GOVERNMENTS WHICH THE UNITED STATES IS ALLIED TO, IS A FRIEND TWO, THEY WILL OPPOSE THOSE SANCTIONS, AND IT COMPLICATES OUR INTEREST WITH THOSE COUNTRIES.

IT IS A SORT OF SERVER -- SUPERFLUOUS, UNNECESSARY IRRITANT IN THE RELATIONS BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES AND SO MANY COUNTRIES AROUND THE WORLD, WHICH ARE PARTY TO THE ROME STATUTE OF THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT.

SO, YOU HAVE TO BE EXTREMELY CAREFUL.

YOU HAVE TO DETERMINE, WHAT DO WE GAIN ULTIMATELY?

>> DAVID, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US, THANK YOU FOR YOUR EXPERTISE, WE REALLY APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANK YOU.

> >> MEANTIME, THE BLOODSHED IN GAZA CONTINUES WITH NO END IN SIGHT.

ISRAELI STRIKES IN NORTHERN AND CENTRAL GAZA HAVE KILLED AT LEAST 87,000 --87 PALESTINIANS IN THE LAST 24 HOURS.

THE DEATH TOLL NOW SURPASSING 44,000, ACCORDING TO THE HEALTH MINISTRY THERE, THIS AFTER THE LAST BLOCK TO THE LATEST U. N. DRAFT CEASE-FIRE NEGOTIATION EARLIER THIS WEEK, SAYING IT DOES NOT TIE AN IMMEDIATE CEASE- FIRE TO A HOSTAGE DEAL.

JOINING ME FOR MORE, ON THE GROUND WITH HER CHARITY , PROVIDING CRITICALLY NEEDED FOOD AND MEDICINE TO CHILDREN.

GREAT TO SEE YOU, GREAT TO HAVE YOU ON THE GROUND THERE.

AS WE NOTED IN INTRODUCTION, NO REAL END IN SIGHT TO THIS CONFLICT.

BARACK SAYS ISRAEL SENT A LETTER TO THE U. S. ADMINISTRATION, SAYING THEY HAD NO INTENTION OF STARVING PALESTINIANS OR OF IMPLEMENTING THE CONTROVERSIAL SO-CALLED GENERALS PLAN IN THE NORTH.

WALK US THROUGH THE HUMANITARIAN SITUATION AND WHAT YOU ARE SEEING THERE IN YOUR CURRENT VISIT.

>> LOOK, THIS IS MY FOURTH TIME BACK IN GAZA SINCE THIS ALL BEGAN, AND EACH TIME I LEAVE, I THINK THAT IT POSSIBLY CANNOT GET WORSE, AND YET, IT SOMEHOW DOES.

AND ISRAEL FROM THE ONSET HAS BEEN SAYING THAT IT'S INTENTION IS NOT TO COLLECTIVELY PUNISH THE POPULATION OR TO STARVE THE POPULATION OR TO KILL CIVILIANS, AND YET, THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT WE SEE HAPPENING ON THE GROUND.

WE ARE IN THE SITUATION RIGHT NOW WHERE THE HUMANITARIAN SECTOR IN AND OF ITSELF IS ON LIFE SUPPORT, AND LOOK, WE ARE NOT GOING TO PUT OUR TOOLS DOWN ON OUR OWN, BUT WE MIGHT END UP FORCED INTO THE POSITION, QUITE SIMPLY BECAUSE WE ARE NOT GOING TO HAVE ANY TOOLS LEFT, WE ARE NOT GOING TO HAVE ANYTHING LEFT TO OFFER THE POPULATION HERE.

THE U. N. ACTUALLY SENT A LETTER, HIGHLIGHTING THAT INSECURITY, THE LACK OF SUPPLIES, AND THE IMPACT OF ISRAELI STRIKES ON CERTAIN LOCATIONS RIGHT AFTER HUMANITARIAN MISSIONS HAVE CARRIED OUT ACTIVITIES, SEVERELY DAMAGING, AND IS STRONGLY URGING ISRAEL TO TAKE THIS VERY SERIOUSLY, BUT IT IS NOT --NO ONE IS REALLY ALL THAT OPTIMISTIC THAT IT IS GOING TO MAKE THAT MUCH OF A DIFFERENCE, BECAUSE WHERE DO I START TO EVEN BEGIN TO TRY TO DESCRIBE THIS SITUATION?

IF WE TAKE EVEN THE SIMPLEST THING, SCHOOL BOOKS FOR CHILDREN, NOTEBOOKS AND PENCILS, YOU WOULD THINK THAT THAT WOULD BE EASILY BROUGHT INTO GAZA, SO THAT WE CAN PROVIDE KIDS WITH AT LEAST BASIC SUPPLIES IN THESE MAKESHIFT TENTS THAT THEY ARE ATTENDING CLASSES IN.

BUT WE CAN'T.

BRINGING IN A NOTEBOOK AND PENCIL IS AN EXTRAORDINARILY DIFFICULT THING.

BRINGING IN TARPS OR EVEN FINDING TARPS IN GAZA TO BE ABLE TO PROVIDE EXTRA PROTECTION AGAINST THE RAINS THAT WE ARE ALL EXPECTING TO HAVE COMING IS EXTRAORDINARILY DIFFICULT AND VERY, VERY HARD TO FIND.

AND SPEAKING OF THE RAIN, WE ARE EXPECTING FLOODING TAP AND WHEN THE RAINS DO COME, AND A LOT OF THESE MAKESHIFT TENT AREAS AND THESE CAMPS THAT HAVE CROPPED UP ARE IN LOW-LYING AREAS, SO THEY ARE GOING TO GET FLOODED.

THEY'RE NOT JUST GOING TO BE FLOODED WITH RAINWATER, THEY'RE GOING TO BE FLOODED WITH SEWAGE AND WASTE.

AND WE HAVE BEEN ASKING THE ISRAELIS AND LOCATING DIFFERENT ALTERNATIVE SITES THAT THAT SEWAGE AND WASTE COULD POTENTIALLY BE MOVED TO, BUT ALL OF THOSE SITES GET REJECTED.

THERE ARE WATER WELLS IN GAZA CITY THAT COULD POTENTIALLY BE BROUGHT BACK ONLINE, BUT YOU KNOW, ORGANIZATIONS ARE UNABLE TO DO THAT BECAUSE THE WELL ALSO HAPPENS TO BE AT AN AREA WHICH ISRAEL HAS BEEN EFFECTIVELY BEEN THE SEASON, A SIEGE WITHIN A SIEGE, AND BOMBING VERY, VERY INTENSELY.

I COULD GO ON AND ON AND LIST ALL OF THE EXAMPLES OF JUST HOW ISRAEL IS CRIPPLING HUMANITARIAN OPERATIONS HERE.

ONE OF THE BIG CONCERNS, WHICH I'M SURE YOU AND A LOT OF THE REVIEWERS MAY HAVE BEEN HEARING A LOT OF ORGANIZATIONS TALKING ABOUT IS THE LOOTING THAT HAS BEEN HAPPENING, AND IT IS VERY IMPORTANT TO POINT OUT HERE THAT THE LOOTING TAKES PLACE IN AREAS THAT HAVE BEEN UNDER AN EVACUATION ORDER THAT ISRAEL FULLY CONTROLS, AND WE HAVE REPEATEDLY BEEN ASKING FOR ALTERNATIVE AND SAFE ROUTES.

>> NEARLY 100 TRUCKS, WE SHOULD NOTE, CARRYING FOOD FOR PALESTINIANS WERE VIOLENTLY LOOTED JUST THIS PAST WEEKEND AFTER ENTERING GAZA, ONE OF THE WORST LOSSES IN 13 MONTHS OF THE WAR.

IN THE ENCLAVE.

DID YOU WITNESS ANY OF THIS?

I MEAN, I WOULD LOVE TO HEAR FROM YOU, AND YOU DOCUMENTED SO WELL AND IN SUCH DETAIL ON YOUR INSTAGRAM ACCOUNT AND ON SOCIAL MEDIA JUST THE RELATIONSHIPS THAT YOU BUILT WITH PEOPLE THERE ON THE GROUND, THE CONNECTIONS THAT YOU HAVE MADE, WHAT THEY ARE TELLING YOU.

CAN YOU GIVE US A BIT MORE ANECDOTALLY AND PERSONALLY, WHAT YOU HAVE EXPERIENCE?

>> THERE IS A LOT OF FRUSTRATION, THERE IS A LOT OF ANGER, THERE IS A LOT OF DESPERATION, AND YOU SEE THIS IN THE ADULTS, AND YOU ALSO SEE THIS IN THE CHILDREN.

YOU KNOW, YESTERDAY WAS WORLD CHILDREN'S DAY.

THURSDAY WAS WORLD CHILDREN'S DAY.

AND WE HAD THIS BIG EVENT AT ONE OF THE CAMPS AND WE HAD ROUNDS AND JUGGLERS AND PEOPLE ENTERTAINING THE KIDS, AND IT WAS THERE THAT YOU REALLY BEGAN TO SORT OF SEE THAT THE WAY THAT SOME OF THE TRAUMA WAS MANIFESTING ITSELF, ESPECIALLY AMONG THE CHILDREN --BECAUSE SOME OF THEM JUST WEREN'T INTERACTING AT ALL, AND YOU LOOK AT THEM AND IT IS LIKE, THEY ARE THERE, BUT THEIR MIND IS SOMEWHERE ELSE.

THEIR EYES ARE BLANK.

AND NO MATTER HOW THE CLOWNS WOULD TRY TO DRAW THEM OUT, THEY JUST COULDN'T.

AND THEN YOU ALSO HEAR THE CHILDREN'S LAUGHTER, SOME OF THE OTHER ONES, AND IT JUST SOUNDS LIKE PURE MAGIC.

AND THIS ONE MOTHER CAME UP TO ME AND SHE SAID, YOU KNOW, MY SON, HE HASN'T BEEN THE SAME SINCE TWO OF HIS SIBLINGS WERE KILLED, AND HE DOESN'T WANT TO ENGAGE BECAUSE HE KEEPS WANTING HIS TWO SIBLINGS TO BE THERE WITH HIM, AND HE KEEPS ASKING ME, YOU KNOW, WHERE ARE THEY?

AND WHY DID THEY HAVE TO GO?

EARLIER, I WAS AT ONE OF THESE MAKESHIFT LEARNING SITES THAT WERE SUPPORTING , AND ONE OF THE MOTHERS THERE CAME UP AND SAID, YOU KNOW, MY SON IS NOT ABLE TO JOIN IN THESE CLASSES, BECAUSE HE IS COMPLETELY WITHDRAWN AFTER EVERYTHING THAT HE HAS WITNESSED, AND WHENEVER HE HAS TO LEAVE THE TENT, HE STARTS TO PANIC, BECAUSE HE TELLS ME THAT EVEN THOUGH HE KNOWS THE TENT ISN'T SAFE, HE BELIEVES THAT OUTSIDE IS EVEN LESS SAFE.

AND WHEN WE TALK ABOUT --YOU WERE MENTIONING THE LOOTING THERE IN THE 100 AID TRUCKS, IT IS IMPORTANT TO POINT OUT THAT THE POPULATION HERE IS VERY AWARE OF THESE CRIMINAL ELEMENTS THAT ARE LOOTING THE AID, AND THERE IS THIS SENSE, ESPECIALLY IF YOU LOOK AT WHERE THAT AID IS BEING LOOTED, THAT IT IS AGAIN HAPPENING IN THESE AREAS THAT WERE UNDER EVACUATION ORDER BY ISRAEL, SO IT IS AREAS THAT ARE FULLY, HYPOTHETICALLY SPEAKING, UNDER ISRAELI MILITARY CONTROL, AND THERE IS A LOT OF EVIDENCE THAT IS POINTING TO THE FACT THAT THESE AID TRUCKS THAT WERE LOOTED HAVE ENDED UP IN WAREHOUSES AND AREAS UNDER ISRAELI CONTROL, SO THERE ARE A LOT OF QUESTIONS BEING ASKED AS TO WHY IS ISRAEL ALLOWING THIS LOOTING TO HAPPEN?

THERE IS A COMPLETE AND TOTAL BREAKDOWN OF ANY FORM OF RULE OF LAW.

THERE HAVE BEEN ATTEMPTS BY AID ORGANIZATIONS TO USE THE POLICE FORCE TO SECURE SECTIONS OF THESE ROUTES, BUT THEY HAVE ACTUALLY BEEN BOMBED.

AND YOU KNOW, PEOPLE COME UP TO YOU AND THEY SAY, WE ARE HUNGRY, DO YOU HAVE ANYTHING TO GIVE US, I NEED DIAPERS, I NEED THIS, I NEED THAT, AND THERE'S NOTHING THAT WE CAN OFFER.

>> YOU MENTIONED HOW HARD IT IS EVEN JUST TO BRING SCHOOL SUPPLIES INTO THE ENCLAVE, AND AS YOU MENTIONED, THE WEATHER IS ONLY GOING TO GET MORE DIRE NOW, AS RAINS ARE EXPECTED AND WE ARE JUST WEEKS AWAY FROM COLD TEMPERATURES --COLDER TEMPERATURES AS WELL.

AS ALWAYS, THANK YOU FOR THE WORK THAT YOU CONTINUE TO DO AND THE STORIES YOU CONTINUE TO BRING US, WE APPRECIATE IT.

TWO DONALD TRUMP'S RETURN TO THE WHITE HOUSE COMES AT A DIVISIVE TIME IN AMERICAN SOCIETY AND POLITICS.

BACK IN THE '80s, PULITZER PRIZE-WINNING COLUMNIST AND AUTHOR PEGGY WAS PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN'S SPEECHWRITER AND SHE REFLECTS ON HOW THE NATION HAS EVOLVED IN HER NEW BOOK, A CERTAIN IDEA OF AMERICA.

SHE JOINS WALTER ISAACSON TO DISCUSS.

>> THANK YOU, BIANNA, AND PEGGY, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> THANK YOU, WALTER, IT IS WONDERFUL TO BE HERE.

>> THIS COLLECTION OF COLUMNS REMINDS ME OF HOW WHEN YOU ARE WRITING YOUR COLUMN, YOU'RE ALMOST THINKING OUT LOUD, TALKING TO YOURSELF, TALKING TO US, THEN PROCESSING INFORMATION.

YOU TAKE US STEP BY STEP THROUGH IT.

SO LET ME UNDERSTAND, HOW ARE YOU PROCESSING THE CURRENT MOMENT AND THE CURRENT ELECTION?

>> I AM PROCESSING THE CURRENT MOMENT AS IN MAR-A-LAGO, THE NEW INCOMING PRESIDENT IS SURROUNDED BY PEOPLE WHO ARE AFRAID TO LEAVE HIS LINE OF SIGHT, AND SO, THEY ARE STAYING ALL AROUND HIM, AND GIVING SOME SORT OF PHYSICAL SENSE OF THE NEW ADMINISTRATION , AND IT IS AN INTERESTING PICTURE.

IN A DIFFERENT WAY, I THINK IT IS VERY FUNNY, BUT SOMETIMES WHITE HOUSES OR INCOMING WHITE HOUSES ARE NOT QUITE CONSCIOUS OF THE FACT THAT THEY CAN DO SOMETHING THAT IS DISTURBING TO PEOPLE, HERE IS WHAT IT IS.

IT IS LIKE THEY HAVE GOT A CHEF'S KITCHEN AND A CHEF'S STOVE, AND THEY HAVE GOT EIGHT BURNERS, AND THEY DECIDED TO PUT EIGHT POTS ON EACH BURNER, AND PUT THEM UP TO FULL BOIL, AND STEAM THE WINDOWS, AND GIVE A SENSE OF HOLY MACKEREL, WHAT THE HECK IS HAPPENING HERE ?

IF I WERE TO GIVE THEM ADVICE WHERE THEY ASKED FOR ADVICE, I WOULD SAY, GOSH, WITH THESE CABINET APPOINTMENTS , LOWER THE HEAT.

AMERICA HAS JUST BEEN THROUGH A DRAMATIC ELECTION .

WHAT IT WOULD LOVE TO DO, LOVE TO FEEL, WHAT WOULD BE VERY GOOD FOR MR. TRUMP IS TO MAKE THEM FEEL REASSURED THAT MATURE, NONDRAMATIC PEOPLE ARE IN CHARGE.

>> AND REASSURE THAT MATURE, NONDRAMATIC PEOPLE ARE IN CHARGE, I MEAN, TRUMP IS BASED ON DRAMA, THAT IS HIS ENTIRE PERSONA.

ARE YOU ASKING HIM TO BE SOMETHING TOTALLY DIFFERENT?

>> WELL, I AM ASKING THEM TO BE SHREWDLY SELF DISCIPLINED FOR ONCE.

AND THAT IS NOT TOO MUCH TO ASK.

>> YOU KNOW, YOU WERE WITH REAGAN, YOU DID ALL OF HIS GREAT SPEECHES.

COMPARE AND CONTRAST RONALD REAGAN AND HIS RHETORIC, WHICH A LOT OF WHICH YOU HELPED HIM WRITE, TO DONALD TRUMP'S RHETORIC.

>> WELL, RONALD REAGAN WAS A MAN WHO LOVED WORDS AND THEIR CONCRETE MEETING --MEANING AND THEIR ABILITY TO SUGGEST, SO BOTH SIDES OF WHAT A WORD IS, WHAT A SENTENCE IS.

HE HAD THEN SOMETHING THAT REAGAN HAD THAT TRUMP DOES NOT HAVE IS THAT REAGAN, SINCE THE 1960s, ACTUALLY MEANING 20 YEARS BEFORE HE WAS PRESIDENT, WAS SERIOUSLY EMERGING AS THE CONSERVATIVE VOICE OF THE BRAND- NEW CONSERVATIVE MOVEMENT IN AMERICA.

SO, HE KNEW HIS STUFF, HE KNEW WHAT HE WANTED TO SAY.

HE KNEW WHAT QUOTE FROM THE FOUNDERS HE WANTED TO USE.

YOU WELL KNOW, DONALD TRUMP OF COURSE HAS BEEN NONE OF THAT AND HAS DONE NONE OF THAT.

HE IS A MAN WITH A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT BACKGROUND, WHO NOW AND THEN SHOWED AN INTEREST IN POLITICS, AND NOW AND THEN WOULD GO MAKE A SPEECH, BUT HE WAS NOT THE VOICE OF A REAL PHILOSOPHICAL THING, AND MOSTLY, HIS SOUND --I MEAN, YOU HAVE TO GIVE CREDIT WHERE IT IS DUE, HIS SOUND IS UTTERLY GENUINE TO HIM.

HE DOESN'T TRY TO HIDE MUCH, IN A WAY, YOU KNOW?

HE TELLS YOU THIS IS WHAT I AM GOING TO DO, THIS IS WHY, WE WILL FIGURE OUT THE DETAILS LATER, BUT THIS IS WHAT WE ARE DOING.

HE HAS MORE THE BLUNT AND PERHAPS NO CONTEXT SOUND OF MODERN AMERICA.

>> THE BOOK IS CALLED , "A CERTAIN IDEA OF AMERICA," A GREAT TITLE .

EXPLAIN WHY.

>> DECADES AGO, I READ CHARLES DE GAULLE'S WAR MEMOIRS AND I FOUND IT A LITTLE MASTERPIECE ACTUALLY.

NOT QUITE IN THE LEAGUE OF U. S. GRANTS WAR MEMOIRS, BUT AN IMPRESSIVE BOOK FROM A DEEPLY IMPRESSIVE MAN, WHO HAD AN ALMOST MYSTICAL --I THINK A MYSTICAL ATTACHMENT WITH HIS NATION.

WITH HIS COUNTRY, AND ITS MEANING AND HISTORY.

AND WHAT STRUCK ME WHEN I READ, THE FAMOUS FIRST SENTENCE OF HIS MEMOIR IS, "ALL MY LIFE, I HAD A CERTAIN IDEA OF FRANCE. "

IT WAS SO SIMPLE AND HE EXPLAINED THAT IT WAS IN ONE PART EMOTIONAL AND IN ONE PART BASED ON RATIONAL THOUGHT, AND I WILL NEVER FORGET SEEING THAT SENTENCE AND THINKING, DO YOU KNOW, NOT TO COMPARE MYSELF TO CHARLES DE GAULLE, BUT THAT WAS TRUE OF ME ALSO.

ALL OF MY LIFE, I HAVE HAD A CERTAIN IDEA OF AMERICA.

FOR ALL ITS PROBLEMS, ALL ITS FLAWS, ALL ITS FAILURES, IT WAS A GOOD NATION , A UNIQUE FORCE IN THE WORLD, A NEW THING IN THE HISTORY OF MAN, BASED ON A NEW THOUGHT, ALL PEOPLE ARE EQUAL HERE UNDER THE LAW, AND WHEREVER YOU START DOES NOT DICTATE WHERE YOU WILL WIND UP, AND TO ME, THIS IS NOT A GAUZY FEELING ABOUT AMERICA, THIS IS A TRUTHFUL , FACTUAL FEELING ABOUT AMERICA, AND I DO THINK --NOT TO GO TOO LONG HERE, I THINK THE BALANCE OF OUR NATIONAL CONVERSATION ABOUT OUR COUNTRY HAS IN THE PAST 10 YEARS SKEWED MORE TOWARDS THE PAINFULLY SHAMED --AND I JUST THINK, WELL, GUYS, WE HAVE GOT TO REORDER THIS A LITTLE BIT, WE HAVE GOT TO REBALANCE HERE.

I FEEL VERY PROTECTIVE ABOUT AMERICA.

>> AND THE AMERICA THAT YOU TALKED ABOUT, THE AMERICA THAT RONALD REAGAN SPOKE ABOUT WAS FUNDAMENTALLY OPTIMISTIC.

THE MORNING IN AMERICA FEEL.

AND YOU JUST SAID THAT AMERICA IS NOW KIND OF FEELS SHAMED, IT IS ALMOST A DYSTOPIAN VISION THAT EVERYTHING IS GOING WRONG.

EXPLAIN, UNPACK THAT.

>> WELL, I WILL TELL YOU WHAT ONE OF MY GREAT WORRIES IS POINT .

THERE ARE A LOT OF FAMILIES IN AMERICA THAT DON'T WORK AND ARE NOT SO SUCCESSFULLY BRINGING UP KIDS WITH ORDER AND LOVE.

THIS HAS ALWAYS BEEN TRUE IN AMERICA.

WE ARE IN AN AMERICA OF DISPLACED PEOPLE, ALWAYS PUSHING OFF SOMEWHERE ELSE, AND WE HAVE HAD INTERESTING PARENTING STYLES, BUT WHEN I WAS A KID IN AMERICA IN THE 50s AND 60s, COMING FROM A SOMEWHAT TURBULENT FAMILY, I ALWAYS WAS ALLOWED TO HAVE THE FEELING, WALTER, THAT WHAT IS IN THE FAMILY IS THIS , BUT WHEN I OPEN THE FRONT DOOR, I GO INTO AMERICA AND IT IS A GOOD PLACE, AND IT WON'T BE UNKIND TO YOU BASED ON YOUR SEX OR YOUR RACE, IT WILL BE ACCEPTING OF YOU AND GOOD TO YOU.

WHAT I FEAR IS THAT IN THE PAST, I DON'T KNOW HOW LONG, 10 OR 20 YEARS, WE HAVE LEFT KIDS FROM TURBULENT HOMES THINKING I'M NOT SAFE HERE, AND GUESS WHAT, I JUST OPENED THE FRONT DOOR TO GO OUT AND I AM NOT SAFE THERE EITHER.

IT IS A RATHER WICKED PLACE.

THIS IS ACTUALLY SOMETHING THAT HAS BEEN ON MY MIND AS A WORKING WRITER FOR DECADES.

AND I FEEL WE ARE SELLING THOSE POOR KIDS SHORT.

AND WE HAVE GOT TO GIVE THEM A DIFFERENT VISION , SO THAT THEY UNDERSTAND THEY CAN HAVE A CHANCE HERE AND THEY CAN RISE HERE, AND THEY CAN BE ACCEPTED HERE, AND THEY CAN BE PART OF THIS BIG PROJECT THAT WE HAVE.

SO, THAT HAS BEEN VERY MUCH ON MY MIND.

>> YOU HAVE WRITTEN OFTEN ABOUT THE NEED SPECIFICALLY TO TEACH , AS A CULTURE, WE NEED TO LEARN HOW TO TEACH AGAIN HOW YOUNG BOYS SHOULD FIT IN AND YOUNG BOYS SHOULD LIVE.

WHY ARE YOU PARTICULARLY WORRIED ABOUT YOUNG BOYS, OTHER THAN THE FACT THAT YOU HAVE A SON AND NOW A NEW GRANDSON?

>> BECAUSE BOYS NEED MASCULINE MODELS .

IN SOME SPECIAL WAY, BOYS NEED TO BE TAUGHT THROUGH THE MODELING OF OTHERS HOW TO BE A BOY AND HOW TO BE A MAN AND WHAT THE MASCULINE VIRTUES ARE, AND HOW TO BE A GENTLEMAN, AND HOW TO BE KINDLY AND STRONG AT THE SAME TIME.

THIS, TOO, HAS BEEN A MATTER OF REAL CONCERN TO ME, AND I FEEL LIKE --LIKE WE ARE GETTING IT WRONG A BIT, AND I DON'T LIKE IT THAT WE MAKE SOMETIMES THESE DAYS BOYS FEEL LIKE THEY ARE NOTHING, THEY HAVE NO SPECIAL PLACE, THEY HAVE LOST THEIR PLACE.

AND IT DISTURBS ME.

>> WE DID THAT TO WOMEN FOR CENTURIES, ISN'T THIS JUST ABOUT A REBALANCING?

>> YES.

IT IS ABOUT A SENSITIVITY.

CAN YOU HELP EVERYBODY AT THE SAME TIME?

DO YOU HAVE TO REALLY HELP THE GIRLS AT THE EXPENSE OF THE BOYS OR THE WOMEN AT THE EXPENSE OF THE MEN?

WE CAN DO IT ALL.

WE SHOULDN'T EVER BE CATEGORIZING AND DEFINING AND LIMITING PEOPLE BY WHAT THEY WERE BORN AS.

IT IS NOT GOOD.

>> ONE OF THE OTHER THINGS YOU SEE IN THE BOOK IS YOU TALKED TO SOME TRADITIONAL REPUBLICANS, EVEN DURING THE TUMULTUOUS FIRST TERM OF DONALD TRUMP, AND THEY WERE LOOKING TO SORT OF THE POST-TRUMP ERA, BACK TO REAL CONSERVATIVE.

I THINK YOU SAID THAT REAGAN'S OLD CONSERVATIVISM WAS PHILOSOPHICALLY RIGHT, BUT IT IS NOT FULLY ONLINE WITH THE CRISES OF OUR TIMES.

WHY IS THAT?

>> YEAH.

YOU KNOW, I'M A LITTLE IMPATIENT WITH THE WHAT WOULD REAGAN DO, WHAT WOULD REAGAN SAY?

THESE POLICIES ARE NOT REAGANESQUE.

LOOK, IF IT IS 1962 AND JOHN F. KENNEDY IS PRESIDENT, PEOPLE AROUND HIM SHOULD NOT BE RUNNING AROUND AND SAYING HE IS DOING THINGS DIFFERENT FROM FDR.

FDR'S AGE AND THE IMMEDIATE POLITICAL DEMANDS OF HIS AGE WERE DIFFERENT FROM JOHN F. KENNEDY'S.

DONALD TRUMP'S AGE AND ISSUES ARE DIFFERENT FROM RONALD REAGAN'S.

I'M NOT REALLY --I'M NOT A FAN OF -- OKAY, PHILOSOPHICALLY, WE HAVE WORKED OUT WHERE WE STAND ON THIS ISSUE AND WE WILL STAND THERE UNVARYING WEIGHT FOREVER, NO MATTER WHAT THE REALITY OUTSIDE.

RONALD REAGAN , TO GIVE YOU ONE EXAMPLE OF A DIFFERENCE, IS THAT RONALD REAGAN IN 1980 WAS DEALING WITH AN ESSENTIALLY -- AND ADDRESSING AN ESSENTIALLY HEALTHY COUNTRY.

HEALTHY IN ITS WAYS AND WAYS OF LIVING, I GUESS.

DONALD TRUMP'S AMERICA IS A VERY DIFFERENT AMERICA, IN WHICH PEOPLE ARE VERY DISTURBED AND TORMENTED BY A LACK OF PARTICULAR KINDS OF JOBS , BY DRUGS, BY FAMILIES THAT SEEM TO COHERE LESS.

SO, YOU KNOW, AS WHAT DID LINCOLN SAY, AS OUR TIMES ARE NEW, WE MUST THINK ANEW.

I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THINKING ANEW.

BUT CERTAINLY, KEEP YOUR KIND OF --WHATEVER KIND OF CONSERVATIVE YOU ARE, WHATEVER, KEEP THAT PRESENT AND APPLICABLE.

BECAUSE PHILOSOPHY IS MATTER.

THEY ARE THE GROUNDING FOR EVERYTHING.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS THAT ECHOES THROUGH YOUR BOOK IS COVID, BECAUSE YOU HAVE WRITTEN ABOUT IT FROM THE VERY BEGINNING, EARLY ON IN COVID, YOU WERE WRITING ABOUT IT.

I HAVE A THEORY ABOUT COVID, WHICH IS THAT IT TURNED INTO A CLASS DIVIDE, AND THERE WERE A CERTAIN CLASS OF PEOPLE, USUALLY THE WORKING CLASS PEOPLE, WHO HAD TO GO TO WORK, AND WERE APPALLED BY ALL THE LOCKDOWNS AND RESTRICTIONS, AND THEN THERE WAS SORT OF AN OVER CLASS WHO SAID FOLLOW THE SCIENCE.

AND THAT DIVIDE BECAME A POLITICAL DIVIDE AS WELL THAT WAS REFLECTED IN THIS ELECTION.

>> YEAH, I THINK IT BECAME A POLITICAL DIVIDE, BUT ALSO REFLECTED AND UNDERLINED A POLITICAL DIVIDE THAT HAD ALREADY BEEN HAPPENING.

I WROTE ABOUT THIS SOMEWHAT IN SOME VERY CONTROVERSIAL COLUMNS.

YOU KNOW, IN ONE, I SAID --AND I ACTUALLY JUST THINK THIS, WORKING-CLASS FOLK WILL HAVE TOUGH LIVES AND HAVE TO STOP AT THE SHOP RIGHT AND DRIVE THE TRUCK.

THEY CAN BE PRETTY TOUGH ABOUT LIFE, YOU KNOW?

IN PART BECAUSE THEY PROBABLY CAME FROM A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF TOUGHNESS, SO THEY SEE THIS TERRIBLE GERM COMING AND THEY KNOW IT IS TROUBLE AND THEY ARE WEARING THE MASK, BUT THEY ARE ALSO SEEING THE LAPTOP CLASS, THAT IS ME AND YOU, STAYING HOME AND WHAT?

BEING DETACHED FROM THEIR REAL LIVES , AND DETACHED FROM THEIR NEED TO SIMPLY LIVE THEIR LIVES, AND I THINK MAYBE DETACHED FROM A CERTAIN COMMON SENSE AND ATTACHED TOO MUCH TO THE SORT OF WE KNOW THE SCIENCE, WE ARE THE SUPERIOR FOLK STUFF, AND I THOUGHT IT WAS PAINFUL, AND I DIDN'T LIKE IT, AND YES, WE ARE STILL WORKING IT OUT.

I THINK PART OF THE STORY OF THE 2024 ELECTION --I HAVE NEVER SEEN IT REFLECTED IN A BOWL, IT IS ONLY MY HUNCH, THAT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, A LOT OF THEM WANTED TO SAY TO LOOK AT THE YEARS 2020, 2024, AND SAY GOODBYE TO ALL THAT.

GOODBYE.

WE ARE GOING TO REORDER THINGS.

>> ONE OF THE TOUGHEST COLUMNS IN YOUR BOOK IS RIGHT AFTER THE JANUARY 6th ATTACK ON CAPITOL HILL, AND YOU CALLED IT A SIN AGAINST HISTORY, AND YOU SAID THAT TRUMP WAS THE CHIEF INSTIGATOR OF IT, AND YOU SAID YOU SHOULD BE REMOVED FROM OFFICE.

>> WHATEVER COMES FIRST.

>> AFTER ALL THIS, HOW ARE WE SUPPOSED TO NOW MAKE OF JANUARY 6th AND THE FACT THAT IT REBOUNDED?

LOOK, I KNOW WHAT I THINK OF JANUARY 6th.

IT WAS A TERRIBLE SIN AGAINST HISTORY AND AN AMERICAN PRESIDENT GOT THESE ANGRY, YOUNG GUYS AND SAID TO THEM, I WILL MEET YOU AT THE CAPITOL, WE WILL CATCH UP WITH THE BAD GUYS THERE.

IT WAS DELIBERATE AND MISCHIEVOUS TO THE POINT OF MALICE, AND THEN AS THE STORY PLAYED OUT ON OUR AIRWAVES ON THE INTERNET AND ON CABLE TV LIVE, HE SAT AND WATCHED IT.

IT WAS GROSSLY IRRESPONSIBLE, JUST GROSSLY SO.

NOW, IF I WERE A TRUMP SUPPORTER, I WOULD SAY CAN YOU GUYS RELAX ABOUT THIS?

IT WAS 1000 GUYS IN A NATION OF 335 MILLION.

THEY WEREN'T ALL ARMED WITH GUNS AND LOOKING TO SHOOT SOMEBODY, THEY WERE ACTING OUT AND ACTING UP, AND THE LAW CAME DOWN ON THEM.

MAN, THE BOOK WAS THROWN AT THEM, THEY ALL WENT TO JAIL.

RELAX, THERE ARE BIGGER PROBLEMS.

SO, THAT IS THE ANSWER I OFTEN GET.

>> AND WHICH DO YOU BELIEVE?

>> MINE.

[ LAUGHTER ] I'M SORRY, YOU CANNOT DO JANUARY 6th, YOU JUST CAN'T.

>> YOU ARE FUNDAMENTALLY OPTIMISTIC IN THIS BOOK , IN THE SPEECHES YOU WROTE, OTHER THINGS.

WHAT IS MAKING YOU, IF ANYTHING, OPTIMISTIC THESE DAYS?

>> OH, OPTIMISTIC -- I HAVE FAITH.

I THINK ALWAYS PREPARE FOR A BAD TIME, BUT LIVE THROUGH EACH DAY IN A HAPPY WAY.

YOU ARE LUCKY TO BE HERE, JUST LUCKY TO BE HERE, LUCKY TO BE ALIVE.

SO, ENJOY THIS THING THAT WE HAVE.

UM, HAVE FAITH IN OTHER PEOPLE.

I NEED AMERICANS THROUGHOUT AMERICA ON MY TRAVELS, THERE SUCH A GOOD PEOPLE.

SO, I WORRY ABOUT US A LOT.

BUT I LOVE US A LOT.

AND THERE YOU ARE.

>> PEGGY, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU, WALTER, VERY MUCH, IT WAS AN HONOR.

>> AND THAT IS IT FOR NOW, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR WATCHING AND GOODBYE.