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>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & CO." HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.
>> WE WILL BETTER UNDERSTAND THE EXTENT OF THE DAMAGE AS THE DAY PROGRESSES.
>> AFTER HURRICANE MILTON, THE CLEANUP AND THE DAMAGE ASSESSMENT BEGIN.
WE BRING YOU ON THE GROUND IN FLORIDA AND LOOK AT THE BIGGER PICTURE WITH AUTHOR AND ENVIRONMENTALIST.
>> I WANTED TO FOCUS ON THE NORMAL PEOPLE LEFT BEHIND AFTER THE SOLDIERS AND SO FORTH.
>> ACADEMY AWARD-WINNING DIRECTOR STEVE McQUEEN ON SEEING WAR THROUGH A CHILD'S EYES IN "BLITZ," A WORLD WAR II EPIC WITH HAUNTING ECHOES TODAY.
>>> AND -- >> DONALD TRUMP IS TRYING TO RETURN TO OFFICE WITH A VERY CLEAR AGENDA TO BECOME AN AUTOCRAT.
>> HARI SREENIVASAN SPEAKS WITH TOM NICHOLS OF "THE ATLANTIC," WHO WARNS DONALD TRUMP IS WASHINGTON'S WORST NIGHTMARE.
>>> "AMANPOUR & CO." IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS CANDACE KING WEIR THE SYLVIA A.
AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS MARK J. BLECHNER THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION SETON J. MELVIN THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND CHARLES ROSENBLUM KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.
THANK YOU.
>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.
I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.
HURRICANE MILTON HAS MOVED OUT INTO THE ATLANTIC AFTER A BRUTAL NIGHT.
NOW COMES THE RESCUE AND RECOVERY EFFORT WITH DAMAGE ASSESSMENTS UNDER WAY.
MORE THAN THREE MILLION HOMES AND BUSINESSES WERE LEFT WITHOUT POWER, WHILE LIVES WERE LOST BOTH BEFORE AND DURING THE HURRICANE.
THE TOTAL DEATH TOLL IS NOT YET CLEAR.
AND IT'S NOT OVER YET.
THE HEAVY RAINFALL CONTINUES AS GUSTING WINDS AND SURGING WAVES STILL THREATEN FLORIDA, AND RIVERS COULD SWELL TO HISTORIC HIGH LEVELS IN COMING DAYS.
WITH IT ALL, THERE WAS SOME GOOD NEWS FROM THE FLORIDA GOVERNOR, RON DeSANTIS.
>> WHAT WE CAN SAY IS THE STORM WAS SIGNIFICANT, BUT THANKFULLY, THIS WAS NOT THE WORST CASE SCENARIO.
THE STORM DID WEAKEN BEFORE LANDFALL, AND THE STORM SURGE, AS INITIALLY REPORTED, HAS NOT BEEN AS SIGNIFICANT OVERALL AS WHAT WAS OBSERVED FOR HURRICANE HELENE.
>> SO IN A MOMENT, WE'LL GET A LIVE REPORT FROM FLORIDA.
NOW MILTON REPRESENTS A ONE IN A THOUSAND YEAR RAINFALL EVENT, AND IT HIT LESS THAN TWO WEEKS AFTER ANOTHER CATASTROPHIC STORM, HURRICANE HELENE.
SO WHY IS THIS HAPPENING?
OUR FIRST GUEST TONIGHT, JEFF GOODELL, HAS COVERED CLIMATE CHANGE FOR MORE THAN TWO DECADES.
HE IS THE AUTHOR OF THE BEST-SELLING EXPLORATION OF CATACLYSMIC TEMPERATURE RISE, "THE HEAT WILL KILL YOU FIRST."
AND HE'S JOINING US FROM ASHEVILLE, NORTH CAROLINA, WHICH IS STILL REELING FROM THE AFTERMATH OF HELENE.
JEFF GOODELL, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
THANKS FOR JOINING US.
>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.
>> I KNOW THAT YOU ARE THERE AND IN THE AFTERMATH OF THAT HURRICANE A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO CONTINUES.
BUT FIRST, I WANT TO ASK YOU TO REFLECT ON WHAT THE FLORIDA GOVERNOR SAID.
IN A SENSE SAYING THAT WHILE IT WAS REALLY TERRIBLE, PERHAPS IT WASN'T AS BAD AS EVERYBODY PREDICTED.
WHAT'S YOUR ASSESSMENT, ALBEIT FAR AWAY?
>> I THINK THAT'S A PRETTY BOLD THING TO SAY WHEN YOUR STATE HAS BEEN HIT BACK-TO-BACK BY TWO MAJOR HURRICANES WITHIN A COUPLE OF WEEKS OF EACH OTHER, AND THE NOTION THAT IT'S NOT AS BAD AS IT COULD HAVE BEEN IS NOT AS CATACLYSMIC AS IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN IS SORT OF, YOU KNOW, FAINT COMFORT I THINK TO PEOPLE WHO ARE -- HAVE EXPERIENCED THAT AND ARE STILL KIND OF DIGGING OUT FROM THE DEBRIS AND TAKING STOCK OF WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO THEIR LIVES.
>> WHAT ARE YOU NOTICING IN TERMS OF, AS THEY SAY, THE DAMAGE ASSESSMENT IS UNDER WAY.
THE RECOVERY OR THE RESCUE, IF POSSIBLE, ARE UNDER WAY AS WELL.
WHAT ARE THE AREAS THAT STRIKE YOU AS THE MOST AT RISK AND DANGEROUS RIGHT NOW?
>> WELL, I MEAN, I THINK -- YOU MEAN AREAS OF THE COUNTRY.
>> YES.
>> OR WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THIS?
>> NO, WHAT MILTON HAS DONE.
BECAUSE WE HEAR THAT THERE ARE SOME MAYBE RETIREMENT HOMES IN AREAS THAT HAVE BEING SURROUNDED.
THERE WAS A SORT OF A MOBILE HOME ENCAMPMENT, IF YOU LIKE, THAT HAS BEEN -- YOU KNOW, THE VERY VULNERABLE HAVE, AS USUAL, TAKEN THE BRUNT OF IT.
>> RIGHT.
YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT'S ONE OF THE THINGS THAT'S, YOU KNOW, GOING TO BE REVEALED TODAY, AS OFFICIALS DIG THROUGH THE DEBRIS.
YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE THINGS ABOUT THESE KINDS OF EVENTS IS THAT IN MY BOOK, I CALL HEAT A PREDATORY EVENT.
AND IN A CERTAIN WAY, HURRICANES ARE ALSO.
THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE MOST VULNERABLE, WHO FOR A VARIETY OF REASONS CAN'T LEAVE, WHO ARE LIVING IN SUBSTANDARD HOUSING, PERHAPS, WHO ARE OLDER, WHO ARE FRAIL, WHO HAVE OTHER KINDS OF VULNERABILITIES, AND THESE ARE THE PEOPLE THAT ARE AT RISK.
AND THAT'S ALWAYS THE WAY IT IS IN THESE KINDS OF EXTREME WEATHER EVENTS.
AND THAT'S WHAT MAKES THEM SORT OF SO HEARTRENDING, BECAUSE PEOPLE WHO HAVE MEANS GET OUT.
AND PEOPLE WHO DON'T, STAY BEHIND AND TAKE THE RISKS.
>> AND JEFF GOODELL, REFERRING TO WHAT YOU WERE JUST TALKING ABOUT, YOUR SPECIALITY, YOUR INVESTIGATION ON THE CATACLYSMIC AND CATASTROPHIC HEAT, WE READ THAT MOST HURRICANES GENERALLY SORT OF SLOWLY BUILD STRENGTH AS THEY CHURN OUT FROM THE OCEAN ON TO LAND.
BUT THE STRING OF RECENT ONES HAS REALLY BEEN VERY RAPID.
THEY HAVE MORPHED RAPIDLY FROM STORMS INTO TERRIBLE HURRICANES.
WE UNDERSTAND THAT THERE WAS SORT OF A HEATWAVE IMPACT ON MILTON.
IT HAD GATHERED IN THE GULF OF MEXICO.
WHAT CAN YOU TELL US ABOUT HOW THE HEAT IMPACTED THIS HURRICANE?
>> WELL, I THINK I WANT TO FRAME IT BY SAYING, YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE IMPORTANT THINGS THAT'S KIND OF DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND ABOUT WHAT'S HAPPENING WITH CLIMATE CHANGE IS THAT WE ARE CREATING AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT PLANET, A DIFFERENT CLIMATE BY OUR CONTINUED BURNING OF FOSSIL FUELS AND PUTTING CO2 INTO THE ATMOSPHERE.
THE OLD RULES DON'T APPLY IN THIS NEW CLIMATE.
AND THAT GOES FOR EXTREME PRECIPITATION.
IT GOES FOR HEATWAVE EVENTS.
AND SPECIFICALLY, IN THE CASE OF THESE KINDS OF HURRICANES WE'RE SEEING AND THIS RAPID ACCELERATION.
THAT RAPID ACCELERATION IS A VERY CLEAR REASON WHY, AND THAT IS BECAUSE THE GULF OF MEXICO IS ABOUT THREE TO FOUR DEGREES HOTTER THAN AVERAGE TEMPERATURES FOR THIS TIME OF YEAR.
AND THE REASON IT'S THREE OR FOUR DEGREES HOTTER IS BECAUSE OUR PLANET IS SEVERAL DEGREES HOTTER THAN IT'S BEEN BEFORE.
AND THAT HEAT IS ABSORBED INTO THE GULF.
AND HURRICANES ARE ESSENTIALLY HEAT ENGINES.
THEY WORK OFF THE DIFFERENTIAL BETWEEN THE UPPER ATMOSPHERE AND THE TEMPERATURE OF THE WATER.
THE HOTTER THE WATER, THE MORE ACCELERATION YOU HAVE IN THESE HURRICANES.
THAT'S WHY AS OUR WORLD GETS -- AS OUR OCEANS GET HOTTER, WE'RE GOING TO SEE MORE AND MORE OF THESE BIGGER RAPIDLY SPINNING, RAPIDLY ACCELERATING KINDS OF MORE DESTRUCTIVE STORMS.
>> SO WE'VE SEEN CERTAINLY NOT HURRICANES, BUT VERY DESTRUCTIVE STORMS AND HUGE RAINFALL, THE PRECIPITATION THAT ARE CAUSED FLOODS ACROSS EUROPE, ACROSS THE WORLD OVER THE LAST SEVERAL MONTHS.
I WANT TO ASK YOU, THOUGH, BACK HOME AND WHERE YOU ARE, THE TORNADOES THAT EVERYBODY EXPERIENCED IN THE DANGER ZONE OVERNIGHT.
OBVIOUSLY, THERE IS TORNADO ALLEY IN THE UNITED STATES.
BUFF WERE THE TORNADOES FORESEEN?
BECAUSE SOME OF THEM, APPARENTLY, WERE FROM BEFORE EVEN MILTON WAS CREATED.
>> YEAH, WELL, TORNADOES ARE A COMMON OCCURRENCE WHEN A HURRICANE MAKES LANDFALL.
THAT'S NOT UNHEARD OF.
AGAIN, WHAT'S NEW AND DIFFERENT HERE IS THE SCALE AND SCOPE OF THESE TORNADOES.
AND THAT'S SOMETHING THAT I THINK HURRICANE EXPERTS AND CLIMATE EXPERTS WILL BE LOOKING AT IN THE COMING WEEKS AND MONTHS, WHICH IS THE CONSEQUENCES OF THESE BIGGER STORMS AND THEIR ABILITY TO SPIN OFF TORNADOES.
BUT YOU MENTION THE EXTREME RAINFALL EVENTS IN EUROPE AND OTHER PLACES AROUND THE WORLD.
AND, YOU KNOW, THERE IS A VERY BASIC, YOU KNOW, PHYSICS REASON FOR THAT, WHICH IS THAT HOTTER AIR CARRIES MORE WATER.
IT HAS A CAPACITY TO CARRY MORE WATER VAPOR.
FOR EACH DEGREE OF TEMPERATURE WARMING, THE AIR HOLD ABOUT 7% MORE WATER.
SO YOU GET THESE BIGGER, MORE INTENSE RAINFALL EVENTS.
EVEN IN AN EVENT LIKE MILTON, WE'RE SEEING THAT THERE WAS A LOT OF RAINFALL.
IN THE U.S., WE HAD HURRICANE HARVEY A FEW YEARS AGO WHICH WAS BASICALLY THIS TREMENDOUS RAINFALL EVENT THAT HAD HUGE DAMAGE TO HOUSTON.
AND WE'VE SEEN IT ALL AROUND THE WORLD WITH FLOODING IN PAKISTAN AND OTHER PLACES.
SO THESE EXTREME PRECIPITATION EVENTS ARE VERY MUCH A CREATION OF CLIMATE CHANGE.
>> THERE'S ALSO BEEN -- I MEAN, A REALLY EXPONENTIALLY LARGE PROBLEM ABOUT DISINFORMATION TO THE POINT THAT THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES HAS HAD TO CALL IT OUT.
HE CALLED OUT THE SWELL THAT'S COMING FROM TRUMP COMMENTS ON FEMA.
ALSO MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE, SHE IS TALKING ABOUT, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE CONTROLLING THE WEATHER.
THIS IS WHAT BIDEN SAID YESTERDAY, JUST BEFORE MILTON MADE LANDFALL.
>> THEY'RE SAYING THAT MONEY NEEDED FOR THESE CRISES ARE BEING DIVERTED TO MIGRANTS.
WHAT THE HECK ARE THEY TALK ABOUT?
STOP IT.
IT'S OUTRAGEOUS.
IT'S JUST NOT TRUE.
THE CLAIMS ARE GETTING EVEN MORE BIZARRE.
MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE, THE CONGRESSWOMAN FROM GEORGIA IS NOW SAYING THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IS LITERALLY CONTROLLING THE WEATHER.
WE'RE CONTROLLING THE WEATHER.
IT'S BEYOND RIDICULOUS, IT'S SO STUPID.
IT'S GOT TO STOP.
>> WHAT DOES THAT KIND OF PUBLIC DISINFORMATION DO TO INDIVIDUALS WHO ARE TRYING TO FIGURE OUT, TO THE GENERAL SCIENCE AND POLITICS AND MITIGATION OF CLIMATE CHANGE?
THESE GUYS KNOW EXACTLY THAT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IS NOT CONTROLLING THE WEATHER.
SO WHAT'S THE POINT?
>> THE POINT IS TO SOW DIVISION, TO INCREASE DISTRUST OF SCIENCE AND FEDERAL AGENCIES, TO TRY TO DO EVERYTHING TO MAKE KAMALA HARRIS LOOK BAD.
I'M SURPRISED MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE DIDN'T SAY THAT KAMALA HARRIS PERSONALLY CONTROLLED THIS HURRICANE WITH, YOU KNOW, A KIND OF GAME CONTROLLER OR SOMETHING.
THESE KIND OF THINGS ARE JUST OUTRAGEOUS.
I'VE BEEN WRITING ABOUT CLIMATE CHANGE FOR DECADES.
I'VE COVERED A NUMBER, MAYBE A DOZEN OR MORE HURRICANES.
I'VE NEVER SEEN ANYTHING LIKE THIS BEFORE.
IN THESE KINDS OF EVENTS, WHAT USUALLY HAPPENS IS PEOPLE COME TOGETHER.
THEY ALL GET TOGETHER.
YOU KNOW, THE FOCUS ON RELIEF, ON AID, ON REBUILDING, NOT ON BLAMING AND DIVIDING.
AND I THINK IT'S JUST EMBLEMATIC OF WHAT TRUMP IS TRYING TO DO IN AMERICAN POLITICS RIGHT NOW, WHICH IS TO STOKE THIS KIND OF DIVISION AND DO EVERYTHING HE CAN TO CREATE CHAOS, BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, HIS POLITICS THRIVE ON CHAOS.
>> YOU KNOW, IT'S AT A TIME WHEN YOU HAVE SAID THAT JUST THE ENTIRE GLOBAL INFRASTRUCTURE JUST ABOUT IS NOT UP TO PAR FOR THIS.
YOU WROTE AN OP-ED FOR CNN, WRITING RECENTLY THAT, QUOTE, WE HAVE BUILT OUR WORLD FOR A CLIMATE THAT NO LONGER EXISTS.
YOU'VE TALKED ABOUT BRIDGES EXPANDING, POWER OUTAGES, IT SAID, WHICH WE JUST SAW.
HOW BIG AN ISSUE IS THAT, THE BUILDING OF A WORLD FOR A CLIMATE THAT NO LONGER EXISTS?
CAN ONE, IN FACT, MITIGATE THAT INFRASTRUCTURE REALITY THAT WE HAVE RIGHT NOW?
>> WELL, I MEAN, TO BE BLUNT ABOUT IT, I THINK THAT'S GOING TO BE THE PROJECT OF THE 21st CENTURY.
IS REBUILDING OUR WORLD FOR THIS NEW CLIMATE.
IT'S GOING TO HAPPEN ONE WAY OR ANOTHER, EITHER IN THE SORT OF MAD MAX DESTRUCTIVE WAY, OR IN AN INTELLIGENT FORWARD-THINKING WAY.
BUT THE FACT IS, YOU KNOW, OUR WORLD, WHETHER IT'S STORM DRAINAGE OR BUILDING ON COASTLINES OR LIKE WHERE I AM HERE IN NORTH CAROLINA ALONG RIVERS AND THINGS, WHETHER IT'S HIGHWAYS, WHETHER IT'S WATER SYSTEMS, DAMS, THINGS LIKE THAT, THEY ARE BUILT FOR THE CLIMATE THAT EXISTED IN THE 20th CENTURY, THE CLIMATE THAT YOU AND I AND MANY OF THE VIEWERS I'M SURE GREW UP IN.
BUT THE CLIMATE THAT WE'RE IN NOW IS ENTIRELY DIFFERENT.
IT IS MORE EXTREME.
THERE IS GOING TO BE MORE EXTREME EVENTS, AND WE ARE NOT READY.
AND WE NEED TO -- THE PROJECT WILL BE FOR THE NEXT DECADE ALSO BE REBUILDING OUR WORLD TO MAKE IT READY.
>> YEP.
AND THE PROOF IS IN FRONT OF US, AS WE SEE WHAT'S HAPPENED.
AND DIDN'T EVEN ASK YOU ABOUT THE ONGOING HELENE, YOU KNOW, RECOVERY THAT YOU'RE EXPERIENCING THERE IN NORTH CAROLINA.
JEFF GOODELL, AUTHOR OF "THE HEAT WILL KILL YOU FIRST," THANK YOU SO MUCH.
>>> NOW CORRESPONDENT ISABEL ROSALES IS ON THE GROUND IN TAMPA, FLORIDA, AND SHE IS JOINING US FROM THERE RIGHT NOW.
WE CAN SEE YOU.
WELL, WE CAN SEE SOME VIDEO.
ISABEL, TELL US WHAT IS GOING ON WHERE YOU ARE.
>> RIGHT.
I AM IN HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY, IN THIS AREA THAT'S KNOWN AS UPSTATE.
AND I'M IN A SHERP.
THIS IS AN AMPHIBIOUS VEHICLE THAT IS ABLE TO GET INTO FLOODWATERS LIKE THIS.
LET ME SHOW YOU SOMETHING.
THE GREAT AMERICAN ASSISTED LIVING FACILITY.
THIS IS THE SITE OF A MAJOR OPERATION THIS MORNING WHERE HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY SHERIFF'S OFFICE DEPUTIES AND FIRE RESCUE, RESCUED 135 PEOPLE THAT WERE STUCK IN THERE.
BECAUSE YOU CAN SEE THAT THIS IS A ONE-STORY STRUCTURE.
THIS IS AN AREA THAT WAS NOT UNDER EVACUATION ORDERS.
THIS IS AN AREA THAT NORMALLY DOES NOT SEE FLOODING LIKE THIS.
BUT WHAT HAPPENED WAS ALL OF THAT TORRENTIAL RAINFALL JUST WOULDN'T STOP AND KEPT POURING AND ADDING ON TO IT.
AND THEN IT LED TO FLASH FLOODING, LEADING TO A SITUATION WHERE THOSE PEOPLE THAT A LOT OF THEM USING WHEELCHAIR, BED RIDDEN, ON MEDICATION, ON OXYGEN, HAD WATER COMING UP TO THEIR KNEES, A VERY SCARY AND DANGEROUS SITUATION.
AND THEY WAITED THERE FOR HOURS UNTIL CONDITIONS WERE SAFE FOR DEPUTIES TO GET OUT HERE AND RESCUE THEM, GET THEM OUT OF HERE IN A VEHICLE EXACTLY LIKE THIS.
BUT THIS IS WHAT'S LEFT OF THE COMMUNITY.
JUST INCREDIBLE FLOODWATERS.
WE'VE SEEN THOSE WHO DIDN'T NEED IMMEDIATE RESCUING GET OUT BY LITERALLY WADING THROUGH THIS WATER, PULLING THEIR CHILDREN ON THEIR SHOULDERS.
AND THAT'S HOW THEY'VE BEEN ABLE TO GET OUT OF HERE.
TAKING A PAIR OF SHOES, A COUPLE OF ITEMS OF CLOTHING.
THIS IS INCREDIBLY DEVASTATING AND NOT SOMETHING THAT THEY ANTICIPATED.
I DON'T KNOW IF YOU CAN SEE THROUGH THIS CORNER HERE, BUT WE'RE ABOUT TO APPROACH AN APARTMENT COMPLEX.
AND YOU'LL SEE THEM JUST HANGING UP HERE ON THE SECOND FLOOR.
WE'VE WAVED TO THEM.
THEY'RE OKAY.
THEY DON'T NEED HELP RIGHT NOW.
SO THEY'VE GOT TO DECIDE HOW DO THEY GET OUT OF HERE, RIGHT?
EITHER THEY HUNKER DOWN IN THERE, OR THEY HAVE TO TREAD THROUGH THESE WATERS TO EXIT OUT OF HERE.
SO JUST AN INCREDIBLE STUNNING SIGHT FROM THIS AREA THAT NOBODY ANTICIPATED.
>> YEP.
I'M LOOKING THERE.
TO AN EXTENT, THEY SAY -- BECAUSE WE HAD THE TAMPA CITY COUNCILOR ON LAST NIGHT.
IT WAS GOING TO BE THE WORST HIT.
TAMPA WAS KIND OF THE EYE OF IT.
IT APPEARS THAT IT WAS ST. PETERSBURG.
BUT DO YOU THINK THE PEOPLE WHO YOU'RE SEEING THERE, WHY DIDN'T THEY EVACUATE?
WAS THERE A REASON?
HAVE YOU BEEN ABLE TO TALK TO PEOPLE WHO ARE STILL THERE?
BECAUSE THEY CLEARLY GOT THE WARNINGS VERY EARLY.
>> RIGHT.
SO WE ARE ACTUALLY NOT IN AN EVACUATION ZONE AT ALL.
THESE PEOPLE WERE LISTENING TO DIRECTIONS.
THEY WERE NOT TOLD TO EVACUATE OUT OF HERE.
THIS IS AN AREA INLAND, NOT BY THE WATER AT ALL.
>> OH, WOW.
>> THEY WEREN'T SUPPOSED TO EVACUATE.
AND THAT IS WHAT HAS BEEN A STUNNER.
IN FACT, TO THAT ASSISTED LIVING FACILITY THAT I MENTIONED, PEOPLE EVACUATED FROM BRADENTON.
THAT IS JUST ABOVE SARASOTA, THE AREA THAT REALLY GOT HIT HARD.
THEY EVACUATED HERE.
THOSE PATIENTS EVACUATED HERE, THINKING THAT THEY WOULD BE OKAY.
I SPOKE WITH THE SHERIFF HERE, SHERIFF OF THE HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY SHERIFF'S OFFICE.
THIS IS WHERE HE STARTED HIS CAREER AS A ROOKIE, THIS AREA RIGHT HERE, UNIVERSITY AREA, NOW CALLED UPSTATE, 33 YEARS AGO, AND HE WAS IN TEARS BECAUSE HE'S NEVER SEEN ANYTHING LIKE THIS, IS WHAT HE TOLD ME.
HE SAYS THAT THIS IS A HEAVILY LATINO POPULATION, WORKING PAYCHECK TO PAYCHECK.
AND, AGAIN, THEY WERE FOLLOWING ORDERS.
THIS IS NOT ANYTHING THAT THEY WOULD HAVE ANTICIPATED.
THIS CAUGHT THEM BY TOTAL SURPRISE.
AND NOW THEY'RE STUCK OUT HERE.
I MEAN, CAN YOU SEE THIS, WADING IN THE WATER RIGHT HERE.
I MEAN, THIS IS THEIR NORMAL RIGHT NOW UNTIL THESE WATERS RECEDE.
AND THIS IS GOING TO TAKE A LONG TIME TO RECOVER FROM.
>> WE'VE GOT A FEW SECONDS.
YOU'RE PAINTING AN INCREDIBLE PICTURE.
YOUR CAMERA PEOPLE ARE REALLY SHOWING US EXACTLY WHAT'S HAPPENING, AND IT'S AN INCREDIBLE THING TO HEAR THAT THEY WERE IN THE EVACUATION ZONE AND HAD FOLLOWED INSTRUCTIONS.
JUST BRIEFLY, DO YOU KNOW WHETHER THEY'RE ABLE TO HAVE FOOD OR CLEAN WATER?
>> SO I'VE BEEN TOLD THAT SOME OF THESE UNITS ACTUALLY HAVE POWER.
I CAN'T IMAGINE IF THEY HAVE RUNNING WATER OR NOT, BUT I WILL TELL YOU THIS.
THE FOLKS THAT WERE RESCUED OUT OF THE ASSISTED LIVING FACILITY, THEY WERE HELPED OUT.
THEY WERE GIVEN BLANKETS.
THEY WERE GIVEN FOOD, JUICES, AND THEN RESCUED OVER TO A CENTER WHERE THEY WILL GET MORE EXTENSIVE HELP.
>> ALL RIGHT.
ISABEL ROSALES, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING WITH US.
THANK YOU.
AND TAKE CARE THERE.
>>> NOW A CATASTROPHE IN A DIFFERENT TIME AND A DIFFERENT PLACE, THE BLITZ, NAZI GERMANY'S FEROCIOUS BOMBING CAMPAIGN OF 1940 AND 1941.
OVER EIGHT BRUTAL MONTHS, SOME 43,000 PEOPLE WERE KILLED ACROSS BRITAIN.
IT WAS TIME THAT DEFINED THE STRENGTH AND THE RESILIENCE OF THIS COUNTRY.
NOW THE ACADEMY AWARD-WINNING DIRECTOR STEVE McQUEEN TAKES A FRESH LOOK AT THE BLITZ, TELLING THE STORY OF GEORGE, A 9-YEAR-OLD CHILD EVACUATED TO THE COUNTRYSIDE BY HIS MOTHER.
BUT GEORGE WAS NOT HAVING IT.
AND I SPOKE WITH STEVE McQUEEN HERE JUST BEFORE "BLITZ" OPENED AT THE LONDON FILM FESTIVAL ABOUT GEORGE'S JOURNEY AND THE SEARING ECHOES OF COURSE FOR CHILDREN IN WAR TODAY.
STEVE McQUEEN, WELCOME BACK TO OUR PROGRAM.
>> THANK YOU.
>> YOU HAVE A NEW FILM OUT, "BLITZ."
AND ACTUALLY, IT'S INTERESTING.
IT PLAYS ON SOME OF THE WORLD WAR II STORYTELLING YOU'VE BEEN DOING, THE LAST ONE WITH YOUR FILM DIRECTOR WIFE, THE DUTCH ARTIST CALLED "THE OCCUPIED CITY."
WHAT WAS IT THAT MADE YOU WANT TO FOCUS ON THE BLITZ, WHICH SEEMS TO BE A REALLY WELL TOLD AND WELL TRODDEN BRITISH WORLD WAR II STORY?
>> WELL, NOT REALLY.
THERE ARE A FEW FILMS ABOUT THE BLITZ.
IT'S ALWAYS ABOUT SOMETHING ELSE, MEANING THAT I WANTED TO FOCUS ON THE PEOPLE ON THE GROUND.
I THINK THAT USUALLY WAR FILMS PEOPLE MAKE DECISIONS, AND PEOPLE HAVE TO SORT OF SURVIVE IT BECAUSE THOSE DECISIONS.
AND I WANTED TO FOCUS ON, YOU KNOW, ON THE NORMAL PEOPLE WHO ARE LEFT BEHIND, RATHER THAN THE SOLDIERS AND SO FORTH.
>> SO THIS CENTERS AROUND A MOTHER AND HER BOY.
THE LITTLE BOY IS JUST UNBELIEVABLE.
HE JUST DELIVERS A GREAT, GREAT PERFORMANCE.
I THINK HE WAS 8 WHEN YOU FIRST CAST HIM.
>> 8 WHEN WE FIRST CAST HIM.
9 WHEN HE WAS IN THE MOVIE.
HE HAS NEVER ACTED BEFORE, EVER.
>> IT IS EXTRAORDINARY, ACTUALLY.
AND SO HE IS A KID WHO LIKE MANY CHILDREN IN LONDON DURING THE BLITZ, WERE SENT AWAY BY THEIR PARENTS TO SOME SORT OF SAFETY IN THE COUNTRYSIDE.
HE IS ALSO A BIRACIAL CHILD.
A AND THAT IS, YOU KNOW, SIGNIFICANT THEME THROUGHOUT THE FILM.
TELL ME A LITTLE BIT ABOUT HIS -- IN REAL LIFE HE IS CALLED ELLIOTT.
IN THE FILM HE IS CALLED GEORGE.
HOW DID YOU TEACH HIM?
HOW DID HE LEARN TO PLAY A BOY AT WAR?
WHAT DID HE KNOW ABOUT WAR, EVEN?
>> LOOK, KIDS ARE MORE INTELLIGENT THAN WE COULD EVER THINK OF.
AND I THINK, AGAIN, ELLIOTT HAD TO DEAL WITH WHO GEORGE WAS AT THAT TIME AND THE SORT OF RACISM AND WHAT WAS GOING ON AT THAT TIME.
ELLIOTT KNEW A LOT ABOUT RACISM.
HE LIVES NOW.
SO HE HAD AN IDEA OF WHAT THAT LOOKED LIKE.
BUT WHAT WAS WONDERFUL ABOUT ELLIOTT IS HIS UTTER STILLNESS.
A LOT OF CHILDREN HAVE VERY BUSY AND MOVING AROUND, BUT HE HAD A REAL STILLNESS, KIND OF A SILENT MOVIE STAR QUALITY TO HIM.
SO YOU'RE INTERESTED IN WHAT HE IS THINKING, AND YOU THINK YOU KNOW WHAT HE IS THINKING, BUT YOU'RE ALWAYS FASCINATED WITH WHAT'S GOING ON WITH HIM.
SO HE KEEPS YOU FOCUSED ON THE SCREEN.
SO HE HAD THAT SORT OF INNATE PRESENCE.
AND IT WAS ONE OF THOSE THINGS WHEN YOU WRITE THE SCRIPT, YOU THINK OH MY GOD, CAN I TELL THIS STORY?
IS GEORGE, YOU KNOW, IS HE IN THE WORLD?
AND ELLIOTT WAS THERE.
>> I SAID WELL TRODDEN STORY ABOUT THE BLITZ, BUT ACTUALLY, I DON'T THINK THERE HAVE BEEN STORIES, CERTAINLY NOT ABOUT BLACK CHARACTERS IN THE BLITZ AND IN LONDON, CERTAINLY NOT ABOUT BOYS OR YOUNG CHILDREN IN THAT SITUATION.
AND YOU SAY THAT HE IN REAL LIFE KNOWS ABOUT RACISM, ELLIOTT PROBABLY DOES.
BUT GEORGE DIDN'T.
>> WELL, I THINK HE LIVED IT.
HE UNDERSTOOD IT.
HE WASN'T AS USED TO IT THROUGH THESE CIRCUMSTANCES BECAUSE OF COURSE HE IS THE ONLY BLACK CHILD IN HIS NEIGHBORHOOD.
SO THEREFORE THERE WAS A LOT -- IN THE FILM YOU'LL FIND THERE IS A LOT OF ABRUPT SORT OF AND UNFORTUNATE THERE IS A CERTAIN -- AGAIN, HE'S BEEN INTRODUCED TO IT IN A VERY UNFORTUNATE WAY SOMETIMES.
>> HE GETS TAUNTED AND BULLIED, AND ACTUALLY, HE'S TAUGHT TO POLITELY STAND HIS GROUND.
I MEAN, WHAT HIS GRANDFATHER TELLS HIM IS DON'T SUFFER BULLIES.
DON'T LET THEM TORMENT YOU.
IT'S JUST THE BEST LINE.
AND HE GOES AND HE SAYS TO THOSE BULLY BOYS, YOU'RE ALL MOUTH AND NO TROUSERS WHEN THEY SAID DO YOU WANT TO FIGHT.
IT WAS VERY PROFOUND.
AND I ALSO WANT TO PLAY THIS CLIP THAT YOU GUYS HAVE LET US HAVE.
IT IS WITH THE MOTHER, PLAYED BY SAOIRSE RONAN, AND WITH ELLIOTT, AS HE HAS TO LEAVE HER AND GO TO THE COUNTRYSIDE.
>> WHY CAN'T YOU COME WITH ME?
>> SWEETHEART, I TOLD YOU, IT'S AN ADVENTURE FOR CHILDREN ONLY.
GROWN-UPS NOT ALLOWED.
BUT IT'S GOING TO BE GREAT.
YOU'RE GOING TO MAKE NEW FRIENDS.
>> MY FRIENDS ARE HERE.
>> YEAH, WELL, YOU PLAY GAMES IN THE COUNTRYSIDE THAT WILL BE NICE.
AND THERE WILL BE COWS AND THERE WILL BE HORSES.
>> BUT THEY SMELL.
I WANT TO STAY WITH YOU.
>> YEAH, I KNOW.
IT'S ONLY UNTIL ALL THIS IS OVER, AND THEN THE SCHOOLS WILL OPEN AGAIN AND LIFE WILL GET BACK TO NORMAL.
I PROMISE.
>> PLEASE, MOM, DON'T SEND ME AWAY.
>> IT'S SO POIGNANT.
AND THEN OF COURSE, LIKE ALL CHILDREN, THEY CAN LASH OUT AGAINST THEIR PARENTS.
WHEN SHE PUT HIM ON THE TRAIN, HE SAID "I HATE YOU, MOM" AND WOULDN'T EVEN SAY PROPERLY GOODBYE.
AND HE REGRETTED THAT.
>> LISTEN, THERE IS OVER 800,000 CHILDREN WHO WERE EVACUATED FROM, YOU KNOW, CITIES ALL OVER THE UK TO SAFETY.
I MEAN, THE WHOLE IDEA, COULD YOU IMAGINE NOW, OF SOMEONE LETTING GO THEIR 8-YEAR-OLD, A 6-YEAR-OLD, A 7-YEAR-OLD, A 5-YEAR-OLD CHILD TO SOMEONE YOU DON'T KNOW.
YOU DON'T ACTUALLY KNOW WHO THE PEOPLE LOOKING AFTER THEM.
SO, THAT TRAUMA, YOU KNOW, HAS AN EFFECT EVEN TO THIS DAY.
GENERATIONS OF PEOPLE AND THE STIFF UPPER LIP, THEY KEEP CALM AND CARRY ON, ALL THAT KIND OF STUFF.
SO THERE WAS A CERTAIN KIND OF RESTRAINT AND CERTAIN KIND OF BRITISHNESS OF, AGAIN, YOU KNOW, NOT SHARING, AGAIN, NOT SORT OF BEING VOCAL ABOUT FEELINGS.
AND I FELT IT HAS A RIPPLE EFFECT TO THIS DAY.
I IMAGINE WHAT WOULD HAPPEN WITH COVID.
SO, YOU KNOW, THE RAMIFICATIONS OF THAT PERIOD PASSED DOWN THROUGH GENERATIONS AS WELL.
IT'S A VERY DRAMATIC TIME.
OF COURSE WE SEE IN THE MOVIE WITH THE CHILD AND HIS MOTHER, BUT I WONDER HOW MUCH AFFECT IT HAS TODAY.
>> THIS FILM IS COMING AT A TIME WHEN IT SEEMS LIKE THE WHOLE WORLD IS ON FIRE AT WAR, WHETHER IT'S NOW IN THE MIDDLE EAST, AND WITH TERRIBLE PLIGHT OF WHAT'S HAPPENING TO CIVILIANS AND CHILDREN THERE, WHETHER IT'S HAPPENING IN UKRAINE, THE SAME THING.
DO YOU -- I MEAN, WHAT DO YOU FEEL ABOUT THIS COMING OUT AT THIS TIME?
IT'S OBVIOUSLY VERY RESONANT.
>> ABSOLUTELY.
ART SOMETIMES CAN ECHO WHAT'S GOING ON NOW.
I MEAN, THIS IS A FILM BASED IN 1940.
BUT ACTUALLY, YES, IT IS ABOUT NOW.
AND FOR ME, THE IN ON THIS TIME PERIOD AND WAR IN GENERAL IS ABOUT SEEING IT THROUGH A CHILD'S EYES.
AND AMPLIFYING IT, BECAUSE WHAT HAPPENS, A CHILD'S MOTHER AND FATHER OR PARENTS, WHEREVER THEY ARE, ARE ARGUING, IS THROW TIMES AS WORSE THAN IT ACTUALLY IS.
SO CAN YOU IMAGINE WITH A WAR?
AND ALSO, WHEN DID WE GET TO A POINT WHERE WE COMPROMISE?
WHEN DID WE GET TO THE POINT WHERE WE SAY WE LOOK THE OTHER WAY.
WITH CHILDREN, IT'S GOOD AND BAD.
IT'S RIGHT AND WRONG.
AND AT SOME POINT, AS ADULTS, WE COMPROMISE.
SO THE WHOLE IDEA OF SEEING THIS WHOLE CONFLICT THROUGH THIS CHILD'S EYES IN SOME WAYS IS TO REFOCUS US, WHOEVER WE ARE, THE VIEWERS, THE PUBLIC TO GET IN A SITUATION WHERE WE CAN ACTUALLY, HOW CAN I SAY, BE HONEST ABOUT WHAT'S GOING ON.
AND SOMETIMES IT CANNOT BE A SITUATION OF COMPROMISE.
SOMETIMES IT CANNOT BE A SITUATION OF LOOKING THE OTHER WAY OR TURNING THE OTHER CHEEK.
AND BECAUSE IT'S NOT RIGHT.
>> WELL, GEORGE, THE CHILD SEES THAT FOR HIS OWN SELF DURING THE WONDERFUL SCENE WHERE HE IS BEFRIENDED AND TAKEN CARE OF BY AN AIR RAID WARD DEB, WHO HAPPENS TO BE BLACK, FROM NIGERIA, HE SAYS, AND HIS NAME IS EFAY.
>> THE ACTUAL STORY WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED WHERE IFE, WHICH MEANS LOVE, THE AREA WARDEN HAS TO CONFRONT RACISM WITHIN AN AIRWAVE SHELTER.
WHERE PEOPLE ARE SHARING A SPACE OF SAFETY.
AND PEOPLE WITHIN THAT SPACE OF SAFETY, PEOPLE START PUTTING UP BARRIERS AND DIVISIONS.
AND HE SAYS THIS IS NOT HAPPENING HERE.
TEAR IT DOWN.
WE ARE ALL HERE TO BE ONE.
AND WE HAVE TO SET AN EXAMPLE, BECAUSE WHAT'S HAPPENING ABOVE IS SOMEONE TRYING TO SET ANOTHER EXAMPLE FOR US.
AND IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT, YOU HAVE TO LEAVE.
>> THAT'S WHAT HE SAID.
HITLER IS TRYING TO SHOW US ABOUT IDENTITY.
AND WHAT HE IS DOING IN THE WAR.
>> THE FILM SO MUCH ALSO ABOUT AS MUCH AS WE'RE FIGHTING THE NAZIS WITH HOW WE FIGHT OURSELVES.
FROM THE VERY GET-GO THIS PICTURE IS HOW WE ARE FIGHTING OURSELVES AS FIGHTING THE ENEMY AS SUCH.
IT'S IMPORTANT, YOU KNOW.
>> AND THEN IN THAT MOMENT, THE YOUNG CHILD, GEORGE, HE SAYS TO IFE WHO PUTS HIM TO SLEEP AND SAYS I'LL COME BACK TO YOU AFTER MY ROUNDS, HE IS STILL TRYING TO FIND HIS MOM, GEORGE SAYS "I AM BLACK."
AND HE HAD NEVER REALLY CONTEMPLATED THAT.
HE WAS REALLY PROUD OF IFE.
>> YES.
BECAUSE WHAT HAS BEEN SAID TO HIM SINCE BEFORE HE ME IFE IS THAT BLACK IS BAD, NOT SOMETHING TO BE A PART OF OR SEEN IN THE MOST DISRESPECTFUL WAY.
SO WHEN HE SEES IFE AS A SHINING LIGHT OF A BLACK MAN WITH INTEGRITY, OF COURSE HE WANTS TO BE THAT PERSON.
IT'S A GREAT EXAMPLE.
>> IT IS A GREAT EXAMPLE.
AND THEN THE OTHER THING I WANTED TO ASK YOU, WHAT WERE THE DEMOGRAPHICS IN LONDON AT THIS TIME?
BECAUSE GENERALLY, AS I SAY, WHEN YOU WATCH A FILM ABOUT THE BLITZ OR WHATEVER, IT'S ALL, YOU KNOW, ESSENTIALLY MONOCHROMATIC ENGLISH PEOPLE WITH THE SAME ACCENT.
>> THAT WASN'T THE CASE IN CENTRAL LONDON.
JOSH LEVINE DID A STORY AND HE WAS INVOLVED IN THE MAKING OF A FILM.
CENTRAL LONDON WAS COSMOPOLITAN TO AN EXTENT, ABSOLUTELY.
A LARGE CHINESE COMMUNITY.
THERE WERE THREE BLACK CLUBS, FOR EXAMPLE, OFF SEVEN DIALS IN CENTRAL LONDON.
THIS IS IN THE '30s AND '40s.
THINGS WERE GOING ON IN A WAY WHICH MAYBE HAVEN'T BEEN REPRESENTED IN FILM.
BUT FOR ME, IT WASN'T A CASE OF ME WANTING TO DO THAT.
I COULD.
IT WAS A CASE OF DOING THE RESEARCH TO TRY TO MAKE A LANDSCAPE THAT THIS CHILD WOULD MOVE THROUGH.
>> AND INTERESTINGLY, FOR ME, ANY WAY, YOU HAD AGES AGO DOING ANOTHER SET OF FILMS HAD FOUND A PIECE OF RESEARCH THAT TURNED YOU ON TO THE IDEA OF THIS BOY.
YOU FOUND IN THE IMPERIAL WAR MUSEUM A PICTURE OF A YOUNG BLACK BOY WITH A SUITCASE BEING EVACUATED.
>> YES.
I WAS DOING RESEARCH FOR A SERIES OF FILMS CALLED I CALLED "SMALL ACTS."
IN MY RESEARCH, I FOUND A PHOTOGRAPH OF THIS SMALL BLACK CHILD, THIS BOY, WHO HAD AN OVERSIZED COAT, A LARGE SUITCASE AND A CAP STANDING AT A RAILWAY STATION.
HE WAS BEING EVACUATED.
FROM THAT, THAT WAS MY END.
THIS IDEA HAPPENED WHEN I WAS -- IT SOUNDS VERY WEIRD THING TO SAY, BUT I WAS THE WAR ARTIST.
>> YES, I KNOW YOU WENT THE WAR.
YOU WENT TO THE IRAQ WAR.
I WAS COVERING IT WHEN YOU WERE THERE.
>> EXACTLY.
YOU'RE A JOURNALIST.
YOU KNOW WHAT THIS IS.
I MEAN, AS A CIVILIAN, I NEVER HAD OBVIOUSLY BEEN AS THEY SAY THEATER BEFORE.
WOULD YOU BELIEVE THEY CALL IT THEATER.
>> YEAH, THEY DO.
>> AS A CIVILIAN BEING IN A WAR ZONE WAS VERY STRANGE.
BECAUSE HOW I -- HOW I RECEIVED THE NEWS, HOW I COULD GET MY INFORMATION WAS THROUGH YOU GUYS, THE MEDIA.
TO BE ON THE GROUND IS A DIFFERENT THING COMPLETELY.
WHEN I WAS IN THE TROOPS, THE BRITISH TROOPS, IT WAS KIND OF INTERESTING.
I HAVE A SENSE OF NATIONALISM IN A STRANGE WAY.
THERE IS PEOPLE FROM GLASGOW, PEOPLE FROM SWANSEA, FROM SOUTHAMPTON, NEWCASTLE, WHATEVER, AND ALL THESE REGIONAL ACCENTS TALKING TO ME, FOR EXAMPLE, HOW THEY NEED THE KID OF THE AMERICAN SCHOOL, THE KID WAS TERRIBLE.
I HAD A SENSE OF CAMARADERIE.
BUT WHAT WAS PERVERSE FOR ME, I HAD A SENSE OF CAMARADERIE THROUGH WAR.
>> YEAH.
THERE IS MANY, MANY PSYCHOLOGICAL, YOU KNOW, SOCIOLOGICAL THINGS WE COULD SAY BECAUSE IT'S A GREAT LEVELLER.
>> ISN'T IT?
THAT'S WHAT I'M TRYING TO SAY.
YOU BRING THAT STUFF I HAD THERE TO "BLITZ."
AND I KNEW I WANTED TO MAKE A MOVIE ABOUT THE BLITZ.
THAT PHOTOGRAPH, I KNEW THAT WAS MY IN.
>> AND IS IT TOO OBVIOUS TO SAY THAT, YOU KNOW, YOU'VE DONE SO MUCH WORK ON BLACK EXPERIENCE.
OBVIOUSLY, "12 YEARS A SLAVE."
WHERE DOES THIS FIT IN THAT PERIOD OF TIME, IN THAT ARC OF YOUR WORK?
>> I DON'T KNOW.
I JUST WANTED TO MAKE -- THIS WAS ABOUT ME MAKING A STORY ABOUT THE BLITZ.
AND YES, THIS PHOTOGRAPH WAS MY IN.
AND THROUGH THAT IN, YOU FOUND THIS WORLD WHICH MAYBE HADN'T BEEN DEPICTED BEFORE.
I DON'T KNOW WHY, BUT IT'S INTERESTING, ISN'T IT?
FOR ME IT WAS GOLD DUST OPEN.
MY GOD, THIS AND THIS AND THE CAFE PARIS, AND THE UNDERGROUND, THE FIGHT TO GET INTO THE UNDERGROUND.
IT WAS NOT A GIVEN THAT PEOPLE -- >> I DIDN'T KNOW THAT.
I THOUGHT THE UNDERGROUND WAS OPEN TO EVERYBODY.
BUT IT WASN'T.
>> WHAT HAPPENED -- WHAT HAPPENED.
>> JUST SO EVERYBODY KNOWS, THE UNDERGROUND TRAIN STATIONS WHICH BECAME FAMOUS SHELTERS DURING THE BLITZ.
>> WHAT HAPPENED APPARENTLY WAS CHURCHILL HAD SAID HE DIDN'T WANT PEOPLE TO COWER.
SO THEY DIDN'T WANT PEOPLE TO GO IN THE UNDERGROUND.
>> HE WANTED THEM JUST TO SHOW -- >> I HAD NO IDEA.
>> THAT'S WEIRD.
>> HE DIDN'T WANT PEOPLE TO COWER.
SO THEY DIDN'T WANT PEOPLE TO GO IN THE UNDERGROUND.
THAT WAS BLOCKED.
PEOPLE KNEW ABOUT HIDING IN THE UNDERGROUND BECAUSE OF THE SPANISH CIVIL WAR BECAUSE THERE ARE PEOPLE FROM THE EAST END WHO ACTUALLY FOUGHT IN THE SPANISH CIVIL WAR KNEW ABOUT HIDING IN THE UNDERGROUND.
SO HIGHWAYS WHEN PEOPLE -- >> IN MADRID?
>> YES.
TRIED TO FORCE THEIR WAY INTO THE UNDERGROUND.
AND YEAH, PEOPLE WEREN'T ALLOWED TO GO INTO IT.
WE THE PEOPLE AS SUCH, THE COMMUNITIES OF EAST END FORCED THEIR WAY IN.
AND, AGAIN, IT WAS ABOUT THEM HAVING THE POWER TO DO.
SO SIMILAR TO IN THE MOVIE WHEN YOU HAVE IN THE FACTORIES, IN THE FACTORIES WHERE THEY'RE BUILDING BOMBS, THESE WOMEN WHICH IS PROBABLY THE MOST PROUDEST DAY OF MY LIFE IS SHOOTING 400 WOMEN IN THIS FACTORY ASSEMBLING BOMBS.
AND, YOU KNOW, ONCE THEY HAD THIS SITUATION OF HAVING WAGE AND COMMUNITY AND WORKING, THEY NEVER WAS GOING TO GO BACK TO DOMESTIC CHORES.
THEY HAD INDEPENDENCE.
SO THE REVOLUTION STARTED DURING THAT PERIOD OF TIME.
>> WHAT DO YOU WANT THE IMPACT OF THIS PARTICULAR FILM TO BE?
WHAT DO YOU HOPE IT IS?
>> I THINK, YOU KNOW, IT'S CORNY TO SAY, BUT IT'S ABOUT LIFE.
YEAH, I'LL JUST SAY IT.
IT SOUNDS A BIT WEIRD.
NO, IT'S NOT WEIRD AT ALL.
I'M VERY PROUD TO SAY THAT.
IT'S THE ONLY WORTH THINGS DYING FOR, THE ONLY THING WORTH LIVING FOR.
THAT'S IT.
ALL THIS NONSENSE THAT GOES ON IN THE WORLD, IT COMES DOWN TO LOVE.
AND I HAVE TO THINK OF THAT SONG, OF COURSE, "IMAGINE" BY JOHN LENNON.
THAT SOUNDS CORNY AGAIN.
>> WHY ARE YOU BEING SO CORNY TODAY.
I'M NOT USED TO A CORNY STEVE McQUEEN.
>> YOU KNOW WHAT IT IS?
SOMETIMES YOU'RE EMBARRASSED BECAUSE OF THINGS LIKE THAT.
BUT I'M NOT EMBARRASSED ANYMORE.
IT'S ME THINK OF "IMAGINE."
MY GOD.
>> A GREAT PEACE ANTHEMS OF THE WORLD.
>> AGAIN, IT'S MOSTLY MADE BY MARVIN GAY.
I TALK ABOUT FILM.
SONG AND MUSIC IS SO IMPORTANT.
THAT'S HOW PEOPLE LULL THEMSELVES.
>> HOW THEY GET TOGETHER AND HAVE A LITTLE JOY AS WELL.
>> LISTEN, WHATEVER WE CAN EEK OUT IN THIS MAD WORLD, WE CAN GET SOMETHING FROM.
BUT "BLITZ" IS SOMEHOW ABOUT AN IDEA WHERE WE RESET OUR FOCUS THROUGH A CHILD'S EYES AND REMEMBER WHAT THIS IS ABOUT.
AND THERE YOU HAVE IT.
>> IT'S MARVELOUS.
STEVE McQUEEN, THANK YOU SO MUCH.
>> MY PLEASURE.
THANK YOU SO MUCH.
>> AND "BLITZ" IS IN SELECT THEATERS FROM THE 1st OF NOVEMBER.
BEGINS STREAMING ON APPLE TV+ NOVEMBER 22nd.
>>> WITH LESS THAN A MONTH TO GO UNTIL THE U.S. ELECTION, THE RACE IS IN THE FINAL FURLONG.
AND AS THE POLLS GET TIGHTER AND CRITICAL SWING STATES, SO DOES THE PRESSURE TO KEEP CAMPAIGNING.
THE ATLANTIC HAS OFFICIALLY NOW ENDORSED VICE PRESIDENT HARRIS IN HIS LATEST PIECE FOR THE MAGAZINE, TOM NICHOLS TELLS READERS AND NOW SHARES WITH HARI SREENIVASAN WHY HE BELIEVES RE-ELECTING DONALD TRUMP WOULD BE FOUNDING FATHER GEORGE WASHINGTON'S WORST NIGHTMARE.
>> CHRISTIANE, THANKS.
TOM NICHOLS, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.
YOUR MOST RECENT COLUMN, THE COVER STORY FOR "THE ATLANTIC" IS TITLED "WASHINGTON'S NIGHTMARE: DONALD TRUMP IS THE TYRANT THE FIRST PRESIDENT FEARED."
WHY THIS ARTICLE, WHY NOW?
WHY IS IT IMPORTANT TO TAKE US BACK IN HISTORY?
>> WELL, THE ANSWER TO WHY NOW IS BECAUSE WE'RE IN A HOTLY CONTESTED ESSENTIALLY TIED ELECTION WHERE DONALD TRUMP IS TRYING TO RETURN TO OFFICE WITH A VERY CLEAR AGENDA TO BECOME AN AUTOCRAT, TO SUBVERT THE CONSTITUTION, TO UNDERMINE AMERICAN FREEDOMS, TO STAIN THE PRESIDENCY EVEN WORSE THAN HE DID THE FIRST TIME AROUND.
AND I THINK HE THOUGHT IT WAS IMPORTANT WHEN WE WERE PUTTING THIS PIECE TOGETHER TO REMIND PEOPLE THAT ALL PRESIDENTS, EVEN THE WORST PRESIDENTS BEFORE TRUMP, STILL HAD THIS KIND OF BENCHMARK OF GEORGE WASHINGTON, A MAN OF INTEGRITY.
NOT A SAINT.
A MAN WITH A LOT OF PERSONAL FLAWS.
BUT NONETHELESS, SOMEONE WHO SET THE STANDARD FOR PRESIDENTIAL BEHAVIOR.
AND EVEN WHEN THEY VIOLATED, YOU KNOW, THAT KIND OF BEHAVIOR, I THINK OTHER PRESIDENTS AT LEAST TRIED TO PAY LIP SERVICE TO IT, OR UNDERSTOOD THAT THEY WERE WALKING IN WASHINGTON'S FOOTSTEPS.
TRUMP SEEMS BOTH UNAWARE OF THAT AND REALLY DOESN'T CARE ABOUT ANYTHING RELATED TO THE OFFICE OTHER THAN HOW MUCH POWER AND SECURITY IT CAN BRING TO HIM.
SO I THOUGHT IT WAS TIME TO SAY THAT AND TO REMIND PEOPLE THAT WE DON'T HAVE TO BE THIS WAY.
WE DO HAVE A BETTER HERITAGE AND A BETTER HISTORY TO DRAW ON.
>> THERE ARE SO MANY PEOPLE THAT LIKE TO SORT OF POINT BACK TO THE FOUNDING FATHERS, ORIGINALISTS, CONSTITUTIONALISTS SAY WELL, THIS IS THE TEMPLATE THAT THESE INDIVIDUALS HAD SET OUT FOR US.
WHAT YOUR ARTICLE REALLY SHOWS IS REALLY THE PATH IN A WAY THAT WASHINGTON FORGED AND THE BENCHMARK HE SET FOR PRESIDENTIAL BEHAVIOR OVERALL.
>> RIGHT.
YOU KNOW, I THINK WE GET HUNG UP SOMETIMES ON THE IDEA THAT THE FOUNDERS DIDN'T BELIEVE THAT ANYTHING SHOULD EVER CHANGE, YOU KNOW, THAT BECAUSE IT WAS DONE, THINGS WERE DONE A CERTAIN WAY OR CERTAIN LAWS WERE PASSED THAT NOTHING COULD EVER CHANGE.
WASHINGTON FOR ONE BELIEVES THAT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE HAD EVERY RIGHT TO CHANGE THEIR CONSTITUTION AS LONG AS THEY DID IT PEACEFULLY AND THROUGH DEMOCRATIC MEANS.
BUT WHAT WASHINGTON REALLY REMINDS US IS THAT HE FELT THAT THE PRESIDENCY SHOULD BE OCCUPIED BY A PERSON OF DECENCY AND VIRTUE AND PATRIOTISM, SOMEONE WHO WAS ABLE TO PUT THE COUNTRY AHEAD OF THEMSELVES.
AND WASHINGTON DID THAT.
WASHINGTON INTERESTINGLY ENOUGH WAS ALWAYS TRYING TO LEAVE THE PRESIDENCY.
EVEN THOUGH HE WAS A MAN OF GREAT AMBITION, HE WAS ALWAYS DEEPLY CONCERNED THAT HE WOULD FAIL, THAT HE WOULD SOMEHOW NOT BE ABLE TO LIVE UP TO WHAT THE COUNTRY NEEDED FROM HIM.
AND I THINK THAT, AGAIN, THAT'S A USEFUL REMINDER BECAUSE THOSE ARE ETERNAL THINGS.
THOSE ARE NOT PARTICULAR AMENDMENTS TO THE CONSTITUTION OR PARTICULAR LAWS OR PARTICULAR DOCTRINES, 18th OR 19th CENTURY.
A BASIC SENSE THAT THE PRESIDENT SHOULD BE A PERSON OF INTEGRITY, DECENCY, EMPATHY, RECTITUDE, CIVIC VIRTUE, SOMEBODY WHO CARES ABOUT THE COUNTRY.
>> YOU SAID THAT THREE OF WASHINGTON'S MOST IMPORTANT QUALITIES WHEN YOU KIND OF BREAK THE ARTICLE DOWN IN THAT WAY, HIS REFUSAL TO USE GREAT POWER FOR HIS OWN ENDS, HIS EXTRAORDINARY SELF DEMAND, AND MOST OF ALL HIS UNDERSTANDING THAT NATIONAL LEADERS IN A DEMOCRACY ARE ONLY TEMPORARY STEWARDS OF A CAUSE FAR GREATER THAN THEMSELVES.
YOU KIND OF JUXTAPOSE THROUGHOUT THE ARTICLE EACH OF THESE CHARACTERISTICS BY DIVING INTO THE HISTORY OF WASHINGTON.
BUT ALSO COMPARING IT AND CONTRASTING IT TO THE BEHAVIOR OF THE FORMER PRESIDENT.
>> WELL, THAT LAST ONE IS REALLY IMPORTANT, HARI, THAT NOTION OF BEING A GUARDIAN OR A STEWARD OF INSTITUTIONS AND OF DEMOCRACY.
THAT'S WHAT ALLOWED WASHINGTON TO WALK AWAY FROM POWER MULTIPLE TIMES, EVEN WHEN IT WAS BASICALLY OFFERED TO HIM ON A PLATTER.
IN 1783, THE ARMY WANTED HIM TO LEAD THEM TO PHILADELPHIA TO OVERTHROW CONGRESS, BECAUSE THEY WERE FED UP WITH NOT GETTING PAID AND JUST TO SHOW YOU HOW FAR BACK THIS IDEA GOES, THEY WERE CONVINCED THAT DEMOCRACY DOESN'T WORK.
AND WASHINGTON CRUSHED THAT.
HE ABSOLUTELY REFUSED TO DO IT AND SHAMED THEM.
WHEN IT CAME TIME FOR HIM TO LEAVE THE ARMY, HE DID THE UNTHINKABLE, HE WENT AND HANDED IN HIS MILITARY COMMISSION AND SAID I WANT TO GO BACK TO BEING A CIVILIAN, WHEN THEY WOULD HAVE LEFT HIM IN UNIFORM FOREVER.
OF COURSE HE DIDN'T WANT TO SERVE TWO TERMS.
THEY TALKED HIM INTO IT.
JEFFERSON AND HAMILTON TALKED HIM INTO IT ESPECIALLY.
BUT WHEN IT CAME TIME FOR HIM TO LEAVE, HE WOULD NOT STAY.
HE COULD HAVE STAYED UNTIL HE DIED, AND HE BASICALLY SAID I'M GOING TO HOME.
TRUMP, BY CONTRAST, THINKS OF ALL THESE THINGS AS THINGS THAT BELONG TO HIM.
HE THINKS OF ALL THESE INSTITUTIONS, THE ARMY, THE WHITE HOUSE, THE PRESIDENCY, EVERYTHING IN IT, ALL THE BOXES OF HIS DOCUMENTS, THE FURNITURE, THE RUG, YOU NAME IT, HE THINKS THAT THIS IS JUST ANOTHER CORPORATE ACQUISITION FOR HIM, AND THAT THESE ARE HIS TOYS THAT HE CAN OWN AND USE AT WILL.
AND IT COULDN'T BE MORE DIFFERENT FROM WASHINGTON'S NOTION THAT THESE ARE IMPORTANT INSTITUTIONS THAT WILL OUTLIVE HIM AND THAT BELONG TO THE PEOPLE OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.
>> ONE OF THE THINGS IN THE ARTICLE THAT LEFT OUT OF ME WAS SOMETHING THAT JOHN KELLY SAID AT AN EVENT IN MOUNT VERNON ABOUT GEORGE WASHINGTON.
AND HE SAID ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT THINGS WE SHOULD REMEMBER ABOUT GEORGE WASHINGTON IS THAT HE WENT HOME.
YOU GO ON TO WRITE, "PEOPLE WHO ARE MAD FOR POWER ARE A MORTAL THREAT TO DEMOCRACY.
THEY MAY HOLD DIFFERENT TITLE.
AT THE HEART, THEY ARE TYRANTS."
EXPLAIN.
>> THE WHOLE POINT OF A DEMOCRACY IS THAT YOU HAVE TO BE WILLING TO SHARE AND EXERCISE POWER IN THE NAME OF YOUR FELLOW CITIZENS AND TO RELINQUISH THAT POWER WHEN THE CONSTITUTION AND THE LAW AND ELECTIONS REQUIRE YOU TO DO THAT.
THE NOTION THAT POWER IS YOURS TO KEEP FOREVER IS FUNDAMENTALLY AN UNDEMOCRATIC NOTION.
THESE INSTITUTIONS DON'T BELONG TO YOU.
THE OFFICES DON'T BELONG TO YOU.
YOU ARE THERE AS A SERVANT OF THE PEOPLE.
THAT'S WHY WE CALL IT PUBLIC SERVICE.
YOU'RE THERE AS A SERVANT OF THE PEOPLE OF THE UNITED STATES.
AND KELLY POINTED OUT NOT ONLY THAT WASHINGTON WENT HOME, BUT HE DID IT TWICE.
AS I SAID EARLIER, HE GAVE UP HIS MILITARY COMMISSION, ESPECIALLY IN THE 18th CENTURY, PEOPLE JUST DIDN'T DO THAT.
YOU DIDN'T JUST SAY OKAY, I'M TIRED OF BEING A GENERAL.
HERE, I'M GOING GO BACK TO MY FARM.
AND THAT'S REALLY ESSENTIAL TO THE DEMOCRATIC SPIRIT, THIS NOTION YOU TRUST YOUR FELLOW CITIZENS SO THAT WHEN YOU'RE DONE DOING YOUR TIME SERVING YOUR COUNTRY, YOU HAND THAT OFFICE, YOU HAND THAT POWER, YOU HAND THOSE INSTITUTIONS TO OTHER PEOPLE WHO WILL THEN EXERCISE THEM AND HOPEFULLY WITH THE SAME VIRTUE AND DILIGENCE THAT YOU DID.
>> TOM, I SOMETIMES WONDER WHETHER THE CONVERSATION THAT WE'RE HAVING ABOUT KIND OF ALMOST POLITICAL PHILOSOPHY AND IDEA AND SORT OF PRINCIPLE IS SOMEWHERE FLYING AT A DIFFERENT ALTITUDE THAN WHERE PEOPLE ARE ABOUT THE DECISIONS THAT THEY MAKE.
WHAT EXPLAINS IF WE HAD SOME SHARED CIVIC UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT THIS DEMOCRACY WAS, WHAT EXPLAINS THE FEALTY TO DONALD TRUMP OVER THESE OTHER IDEALS?
>> YOU KNOW, IT'S A SAD THING, HARI, BECAUSE WE USED TO HAVE THIS SHARED UNDERSTANDING.
AND IT WASN'T A MATTER OF EDUCATION, AND IT WASN'T A MATTER OF BEING WELL READ OR HAVING COLLEGE DEGREES.
WE ALL UNDERSTOOD THE BASICS OF PEOPLE, THE BASIC HISTORY THAT WAS GIVEN TO US BY PEOPLE LIKE GEORGE WASHINGTON, JAMES MADISON, ABRAHAM LINCOLN, AND OTHERS.
THAT'S STILL OUT THERE, AND IT'S STILL BEING TAUGHT.
BUT WHEN PEOPLE ARE RESENTFUL, WHEN THEY BECOME DRAWN INWARD, AND THEY'RE CONSTANTLY CONVINCED NOT JUST BY DONALD TRUMP, BUT BY THIS STREAM OF RIGHT-RING MEDIA POUNDING MESSAGES OF GRIEVANCES, YOU BECOME KIND OF NARCISSISTIC, AND YOU CAN ONLY LOOK INWARD.
AND ALL OF THESE OTHER CONCEPTS -- SERVICE, DUTY, HONOR, HONESTY JUST GET CROWDED OUT AS NOISE.
AND ALL YOU CAN HEAR IS YOURSELF AND YOUR OWN ANGER.
AND A LOT OF THE TRUMP VOTERS I THINK -- AND, YOU KNOW, THIS I THINK IS SOMETHING THAT'S BECOME CLEARER OVER EIGHT YEARS.
EIGHT YEARS AGO, WE HAD A LOT OF THEORIES ABOUT WHY THIS HAPPENED, BUT MOST OF THEM HAVEN'T PANNED OUT.
THIS REALLY DOES COME DOWN TO GRIEVANCE AND RESENTMENT BEING GINNED UP AMONG A PARTICULAR GROUP OF PEOPLE ARE REASONABLY WELL OFF, WHO LIVE REASONABLY COMFORTABLE LIVES, BUT DON'T LIKE THE FACT THAT THE COUNTRY IS CHANGING, THAT DEMOGRAPHICALLY AND SOCIALLY, THE COUNTRY HAS CHANGED IN WAYS THEY JUST DON'T HAPPEN TO LIKE.
AND SO THEY'VE CROWDED ALL OF THIS OUT.
THEY DON'T WANT TO HEAR IT.
THEY KNOW -- I GUESS I WOULD ARGUE, AS I'VE BEEN SAYING FOR YEARS, I THINK SOMEWHERE DEEP DOWN, THEY KNOW THEY'RE WRONG, WHICH MAKES THEM EVEN MORE RESISTANT TO ANY DISCUSSION, BECAUSE IT'S VERY UNCOMFORTABLE FOR THEM.
BUT WE -- AS I KEEP SAYING, I WROTE THIS BECAUSE WE DON'T HAVE TO LIVE THIS WAY.
WE DON'T HAVE TO BE THIS WAY.
THE HERITAGE OF WASHINGTON AND THE FOUNDERS AND LINCOLN AND ROOSEVELT AND OTHERS, IT'S ALL AVAILABLE TO US.
WE DON'T NEED ANY SPECIALIZED TRAINING TO EMBRACE IT.
IT'S THERE AND IT'S ALWAYS BEEN THERE FOR US.
>> SO TOM, IN THE SAME VEIN, HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THE APPEAL AND EMBRACE OF DONALD TRUMP AND ELON MUSK.
YOU WROTE A SEPARATE PIECE EARLIER THIS WEEK THAT CLASSIFIED THEIR RELATIONSHIP.
YOU CALLED THEM PLUTOCRATS MASQUERADING AS ORDINARY AMERICANS.
>> PART OF THIS RESENTMENT AND THIS ANGER AND THIS SORT OF ITCHING RESENTMENT ABOUT SOCIAL CHANGE IS THAT A LOT OF THESE VOTERS SEE OTHER PEOPLE LIVING RELATIVELY GOOD LIVES, AND THAT ENRAGES THEM.
THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND IT.
THEY THINK THEY SHOULDN'T BE LIVING GOOD LIVES.
THEY WANT THEM PUNISHED.
THERE WAS A TRUMP VOTER YEARS AGO WHO GOT THROWN OUT OF WORK BECAUSE ONE OF TRUMP'S GOVERNMENT SHUTDOWN THREATS.
AND SHE SAID "THIS ISN'T WHAT I VOTED FOR.
HE IS NOT HURTING THE PEOPLE HE'S SUPPOSED TO BE HURTING."
AND THAT IS VERY MUCH -- ONCE YOU'RE VOTING TO HURT PEOPLE, THEN YOU ARE PART OF THIS KIND OF RESENTFUL TRIBE, AND YOU DON'T REALLY CARE ABOUT YOUR INTERESTS.
YOU DON'T REALLY CARE ABOUT POLICY.
YOU WANT PEOPLE WHO ARE RICH ENOUGH AND POWERFUL ENOUGH, PEOPLE LIKE TRUMP AND MUSK AND VANCE, WHO IS A MULTIMILLIONAIRE HIMSELF, YOU WANT TO SEE PEOPLE GO OUT THERE AND HAVE THE ABILITY TO HURT PEOPLE THAT YOU THINK SHOULDN'T BE LIVING AS WELL AS THEY ARE.
THAT TO HURT PEOPLE WHO SEEM TO NOT BE PAYING ATTENTION TO YOU, AND TO MAKE THEM PAY ATTENTION TO YOU.
AND THAT'S WHY I THINK -- THEY'RE ATTRACTED TO THESE PLUTOCRATIC FAKE POPULISTS, BECAUSE THESE GUYS HAVE THE MONEY AND THE REACH TO MAKE OTHER PEOPLE MISERABLE IF THEY REALLY CHOOSE TO.
>> SO WHAT WAS IT ABOUT GEORGE WASHINGTON, WHO WAS INCREDIBLY POPULAR, BUT WHO WASN'T INTO POPULISM OR THE WISDOM OF THE CROWDS?
>> YOU KNOW, IT'S A WONDERFUL EXAMPLE TO SHOW THAT YOU CAN BE ONE OF THE MOST POPULAR PEOPLE IN THE COUNTRY -- WASHINGTON RAN UNOPPOSED.
TWO UNANIMOUS VICTORIES IN THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE.
COULD HAVE HAD A THIRD IF HE REALLY WANTED IT.
AND YET WAS DEEPLY DISTRUSTFUL OF POPULAR EMOTION, AND MADE NO BONES ABOUT THAT.
I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS THAT DISTINGUISHED WASHINGTON AND THE EARLY FOUNDER, THE EARLY PRESIDENTS UP UNTIL YOU GET TO MAYBE THE AGE OF ANDREW JACKSON, WHO BECOMES THE FIRST REAL POPULIST KIND OF PRESIDENT, WAS THAT THEY ALL SAID LOOK, WE'RE NOT HERE TO SIMPLY AMPLIFY THE EMOTIONS OF ORDINARY PEOPLE.
WE'RE HERE TO SERVE THE PUBLIC.
WE HEAR YOU, BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN WE SIMPLY DO WHATEVER YOU WANT DONE.
THAT'S WHY THE FOUNDERS BUILT IN ALL THESE CHECKS AND BALANCES.
THEY PUT A SENATE IN TO SLOW DOWN LEGISLATION.
THEY HAD A PRESIDENT WHO HAD A VETO.
THEY UNDERSTOOD THIS ROLE THAT YOU SIMPLY COULD NOT RULE A COUNTRY BY DIRECT DEMOCRACY.
THIS ISN'T LIKE ATHENS WHERE EVERYBODY CROWDS INTO THE PUBLIC SQUARE AND YELLS LOUDLY, AND THAT ALL OF THE LOUDEST CHEERS CREATE POLICY.
THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT THE FOUNDERS DIDN'T WANT, BUT THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT PEOPLE LIKE TRUMP PROMISE.
HE GOES TO RALLIES AND HE SAYS HOW ABOUT IF I DO THIS, AND THE CROWD CHEERS.
AND HE SAYS SEE, I'M A GENIUS.
IT'S A GREAT IDEA.
SOMETHING THAT WASHINGTON WOULD NEVER HAVE DONE.
AND TO THEIR CREDIT, MOST OF THE EARLY FOUNDERS WOULD NEVER HAVE EVEN CONSIDERED DOING THAT.
IN FACT, THEY WORRIED ABOUT IT.
THEY WORRIED ABOUT A DEMAGOGUE WHO WOULD TRY TO LEAD THE COUNTRY BY DOING THAT KIND OF APPEAL TO EMOTION AND TO RAGE AND TO ANGER.
AND THEY PUT INSTITUTIONS IN PLACE TO TRY TO PREVENT THAT FROM HAPPENING.
>> YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE TAUGHT FUTURE 25 YEARS AT THE U.S.
NAVAL WAR COLLEGE.
YOU TAUGHT ABOUT WASHINGTON.
BUT FOR THIS STORY, YOU KIND OF WENT BACK AND RESEARCHED HIS LIFE.
YOU POINT OUT IN THE ARTICLE, AS MANY PEOPLE KNOW THAT HE WASN'T WITHOUT FLAWS.
HE WAS A SLAVE HOLDER.
BUT I ALSO WONDER, EVEN KIND OF KNOWING THAT, WHY HAVE WE ELEVATED GEORGE WASHINGTON TO THIS ALMOST MYTHICAL STATUS?
WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE MONUMENTS IN WASHINGTON ALONE.
YOU HAVE THESE BEAUTIFUL, ORNATE PLACES FOR LINCOLN AND JEFFERSON, AND YOU LITERALLY HAVE THIS EGYPTIAN OBELISK AS THE WASHINGTON MONUMENT.
WHY IS THAT?
>> WELL, I THINK PART OF IT IS THAT WASHINGTON HIMSELF WAS SOMETHING OF A SPHINX-LIKE CHARACTER.
IT HURT HIM TO TALK.
WE JOKE ABOUT THE FALSE TEETH.
HE WAS ALWAYS A MAN WHO WAS VERY CAREFUL WITH HIS WORDS.
BUT IN LATER LIFE, IT ACTUALLY DID HURT HIM TO SPEAK.
SO HE JUST LISTENED, WAS VERY DELIBERATIVE, KEPT HIS OWN COUNCIL.
BUT ON TOP OF THAT, I THINK AMERICANS NEEDED A UNIFYING MYTH, A UNIFYING ALMOST GOD-LIKE FIGURE AROUND WHOM THEY COULD RALLY.
AND WASHINGTON WAS A GREAT CHOICE.
HE HAD WON THE WAR.
HE HAD PRESIDED OVER THE CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION.
HE WAS A MAN OF UNIMPEACHABLE INTEGRITY.
HE WAS RESPECTED BY EVERYONE ACROSS THE BOARD AMONG THE EARLY REVOLUTIONARIES.
AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, AS A YOUNG NATION, WE WANTED TO HAVE A FOUNDING HERO.
YOUR POINT ABOUT THE OBELISK IS SO WELL TAKEN BECAUSE THE FEW STATUES OF WASHINGTON THAT WERE DONE AROUND THAT TIME WERE REALLY BAD.
I MEAN, THEY WERE MODELED ON GREEK GODS.
THE ROTUNDA OF THE CAPITOL HAS WASHINGTON TO THIS DAY.
YOU CAN SEE HIM SITTING IN THE HEAVEN LIKE A DEITY.
AND THAT'S NOT WHO HE WAS.
AND I THINK HE WOULDN'T HAVE LIKED THAT VERY MUCH NOW THAT I THINK I KNOW HIM BETTER.
BUT I THINK THAT'S PART OF FOUNDING, YOU KNOW, A NEW NATION THAT WE NEED OUR PANTHEON OF HEROES, AND WASHINGTON WAS THE FIRST AND GREATEST AMONG THEM.
>> YOU KNOW, THE IDEA THAT THIS ELECTION IS MORE CRUCIAL, MORE PIVOTAL THAN PREVIOUS ONES IS SOMETHING THAT YOU HEAR A LOT FROM THE LEFT, BUT YOU DON'T NECESSARILY HEAR THAT IN THE SAME WAY FROM THE RIGHT.
I MEAN, WHAT IS YOUR CONCERN FOR YOUR PARTY, THE REPUBLICAN PARTY FOR AMERICA AT LARGE, DEPENDING ON THE OUTCOMES HERE?
>> WELL, MY FORMER PARTY.
I LEFT SEVERAL YEARS AGO BECAUSE OF DONALD TRUMP.
AND BECAUSE OF THE GENERAL DRIFT OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, WHICH HAS BECOME JUST A CULT OF PERSONALITY AND A VEHICLE FOR POWER.
I THINK THE REASON THIS ELECTION, THE PEOPLE LIKE ME ARE STILL USING TERMS LIKE EXISTENTIAL.
YOU KNOW, DONALD TRUMP'S FIRST TERM COULD HAVE BEEN MUCH MORE TERRIFYING THAN IT WAS.
THERE WERE STILL SOME PEOPLE WHO BOTTLENECKS AND OBSTRUCTED SOME OF THE WORST THINGS THAT DONALD TRUMP WANTED TO DO.
THEY WON'T BE THERE THIS TIME.
MORE TO THE POINT, YOU COULD ARGUE THAT IN 2016, THIS WAS A ONE-OFF, THAT IT WAS A WEIRD ELECTION BETWEEN TWO DEEPLY UNPOPULAR PEOPLE, TRUMP AND HILLARY CLINTON, AND THAT TRUMP COBBLED TOGETHER THIS KIND OF FREAKISH OUTCOME IN THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE.
IF HE WINS IN 2024, I'M SORRY TO SAY WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO CONFRONT THE REALITY THAT THIS IS WHO WE ARE, THAT THIS IS WHO A LARGE NUMBER OF AMERICANS REALLY ARE, THAT THIS IS WHAT THEY WANT.
AND THEY THINK IT'S -- THEY THINK IT'S DESIRABLE, AND THEY THINK IT'S SOMETHING THAT THEY'RE ENJOYING.
AND THAT'S NOT A FUNCTIONAL, HEALTHY DEMOCRACY.
AND I THINK WE ARE NO LONGER THE GREATEST DEMOCRACY IN THE WORLD.
WE'RE NO LONGER THE DEMOCRACY WE ONCE THOUGHT WE WERE, THAT WE ARE, YOU KNOW, A COUNTRY THAT'S IN DEMOCRATIC DECLINE.
BECAUSE ONCE -- ONCE YOU CAN ARGUE IS A MISTAKE OR A ONE HUFF OFF.
TWICE HE TRIED AND WAS DEFEATED.
IF HE COMES IN ON THE THIRD TRY, I THINK YOU JUST HAVE TO ACCEPT THAT THINGS HAVE CHANGED IN THIS COUNTRY AND THAT WE ARE NOT THE COUNTRY WE ONCE WERE.
>> STAFF WRITING FOR "THE ATLANTIC" TOM NICHOLS.
THANK YOU SO MUCH.
>> THANK YOU.
>> AND OF COURSE THE EYES OF THE WORLD ARE ON THE U.S. ELECTION AS WELL.
>>> AND FINAL LISTEN TONIGHT, THE END OF AN REAR FOR GRAND MASTER RAFAEL NADAL.
TODAY THE 22 GRAND SLAM CHAMPION POSTED THIS VIDEO ON X ANNOUNCING HIS RETIREMENT, SAYING THANK YOU IN 12 LANGUAGES TO HIS SUPPORTERS ALL ACROSS THE GLOBE.
THE SPANIARD'S CAREER HAS BEEN NOTHING SHORT OF EXTRAORDINARY, FROM A RECORD 14 FRENCH OPEN TITLES, 4 U.S.
OPENS, 2 AUSTRALIAN AND WIMBLEDON TROPHIES.
THE LIST JUST GOES ON.
AND ALL OF THIS DESPIKE TACKLING SEVERAL INJURIES.
IN 2022 AFTER HIS RECORD ROLL ON ROLAND-GARROS, I ASKED HIM IF RETIREMENT EVER CROSSED HIS MIND.
HERE IS WHAT HE TOLD ME.
>> GOING THROUGH ALL THIS PROBABLY CHALLENGES, I ALWAYS HOLD THE PASSION FOR KEEP GOING, YOU KNOW, AND I ALWAYS HOLD THE LOVE FOR THE GAME, NO.
AND I ALWAYS WANTED TO KEEP GOING.
IT'S ALL ABOUT HAVING THE CHANCE TO BE HAPPY PLAYING TENNIS OR NOT.
AND IF THE PAIN IS IMPOSSIBLE TO MANAGE, THEN YOU CAN'T BE HAPPY.
>> HE HAS APPARENTLY NOW FIGURED THAT IT'S BECOME IMPOSSIBLE.
BUT NADAL SAYS HE IS LOOKING FORWARD TO REPRESENTING SPAIN ONE LAST TIME AT THE DAVIS CUP NEXT MONTH.
A CAREER THAT'S COME FULL CIRCLE BECAUSE THE 2004 FINAL WAS, QUOTE, ONE OF HIS FIRST JOYS, HE SAYS.
AND THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.
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THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND GOODBYE FROM LONDON.