October 14, 2024

>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>>> A DIRE SITUATION FROM LEBANON TO NORTHERN GAZA, AS ISRAELI FORCES POUND BOTH.

I SPOKE TO UNICEF ABOUT THE ONGOING HUMANITARIAN CATASTROPHE.

THEN -- >> HIS LIPS ARE MOVING, HE'S NOT TELLING THE TRUTH.

>> WITH THREE WEEKS LEFT UNTIL THE U.S. ELECTION, THE RACE REMAINS NECK AND NECK, AND ANXIETY RUNS HIGH.

HOW SPEAKER EMERITA NANCY PELOSI ITEMS ME HOW SHE SEES THIS ELECTION AS VITAL TO SAVING AMERICAN DEMOCRACY.

ALSO AHEAD.

>> THEY WILL HAVE TO CONTEND WITH THE PEOPLE THEY'VE EXCLUDED OUTSIDE OF DEMOCRACY.

>> REFLECTIONS ON DEMOCRACY AND RACIAL IDENTITY.

MICHEL MARTIN WITH AUTHOR THEODORE R. JOHNSON TO DISCUSS HIS NEW BOOK, "IF WE ARE BRAVE: ESSAYS FROM BLACK AMERICANA."

♪♪ >>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE SYLVIA A.

AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

MARK J. BLECHNER.

THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION.

SETON J. MELVIN.

THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

FROM LEBANON TO NORTHERN ISRAEL TO GAZA, AND LIKELY NEXT TO IRAN, WAR IN THE MIDDLE EAST IS INTENSIFYING ON MULTIPLE FRONTS.

TODAY, AN ISRAELI AIR STRIKE HIT A VILLAGE NORTH OF BEIRUT, KILLING AT LEAST 19 PEOPLE.

THIS AS A HEZBOLLAH DRONE STRIKE KILLED FOUR IDF SOLDIERS DEEP INSIDE ISRAEL.

AND THERE WERE PANICKED SCENES IN GAZA, AFTER AN ISRAELI AIR STRIKE HIT THE CROWDED COURTYARD OF A HOSPITAL, KILLING FOUR PEOPLE.

THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE HAVE SOUGHT REFUGE ON THE HOSPITAL GROUNDS.

TAKE A LISTEN.

>> Translator: IT WAS A HORRIFIC NIGHT.

ONE OF THE WORST NIGHTS.

AS IF IT WERE THE FIRE OF THE DEVIL.

FIRE AND EXPLOSIONS.

WE HAVE NEVER SEEN ANYTHING LIKE THIS.

PEOPLE CAME OUT TOTALLY BURNT, IT WAS VERY DISTURBING.

EVERYBODY WAS RUNNING, JUST LOOKING FOR A PLACE TO HIDE.

>> AND WE MUST WARN YOU, THE VIDEO IS DISTURBING.

FAMILIES OF THE VICTIMS BID EMOTIONAL FAREWELL TO THEIR RELATIVES, CRYING OVER THEIR LIFELESS BODIES.

THE HOSPITAL ATTACKS ON GAZA ON SUNDAY, IN WHICH AT LEAST 41 PEOPLE, INCLUDING CHILDREN, WERE KILLED.

JAMES ELDER IS THE GLOBAL SPOKESPERSON FOR UNICEF, AND HE'S JUST RETURNED FROM GAZA.

HE'S JOINING US FROM GENEVA HEADQUARTERS NOW.

JAMES ELDER, WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

SO -- JUST GIVE US YOUR REACTION TO WHAT APPEARS TO BE A REAL ESCALATION IN GAZA, FIRST AND FOREMOST.

>> WELL, VERY MUCH SO, CHRISTIANE.

JUST LOOKING AT THAT ATTACK ON THE HOSPITAL COMPLEX, A HOSPITAL I KNOW VERY, VERY WELL, I KNOW MANY OF THOSE FAMILIES WHO HAVE BEEN DISPLACED, THREE OR FOUR TIMES.

TRY TO PICTURE BEING DISPLAYED THREE, FOUR TIMES, YOUR HOME HAS BEEN DESTROYED, YOU LOSE SOMETHING EACH TIME.

I'VE SEEN THOSE PEOPLE.

THEY'RE IN TENTS.

AT THE SAME TIME, IN THE LAST COUPLE OF DAYS, BECAUSE OF THE INTENSITY, EIGHT OR NINE DAYS NOW OF ATTACKS IN THE NORTH, AND WE'RE SEEING FORCED EVACUATIONS OF FAMILIES WHO KNOW HOW DESPERATE IT IS IN THE SOUTH IN TERMS OF A LACK OF SANITATION AND WATER, MANY OF THOSE FAMILIES, IF THEY'RE ABLE TO FLEE, MANY OF THEM WERE SHOT AS THEY WERE TRYING TO FLEE, CHRISTIANE, MANY OF THEM GOT TO THAT HOSPITAL.

THAT'S WHERE THEY TOOK REFUGE, ONLY THEN OVERNIGHT TO HAVE AN AIR STRIKE.

SO -- WE SEEM TO HAVE HIT A POINT WHERE THERE ARE NO CONSTRAINTS.

THERE APPEAR TO BE NO LIMITS.

AND I SAY THAT AGAIN BASED ON DATA.

I MEAN, THE CASUALTY RATE OF CHILDREN SPEAKS TO THIS ALARMING DISREGARD.

WE ARE -- WE ARE NOW MORE THAN ONE YEAR INTO THIS, AND IF WE LOOK AT AVERAGES OF BOYS AND GIRLS, WE'RE LOOKING AT 40 -- 4-0 CHILDREN KILLED EVERY DAY, FOR A YEAR.

AND AS YOU RIGHTLY POINTED OUT THERE, SOMEHOW, IT'S ESCALATING.

SOMEHOW, IT'S GETTING WORSE FOR THOSE CIVILIANS.

>> JAMES, CAN I JUST DRILL DOWN A LITTLE BIT ON -- LET'S JUST TAKE THE JABALYA REFUGEE CAMP.

ACCORDING TO OFFICIALS, AND MAYBE EVEN ACCORDING TO THE U.N.

THERE, ABOUT 300 HAVE BEEN KILLED SINCE THE ISRAELI GROUND OFFENSIVE STARTED, WHICH WAS, YOU KNOW, LAST YEAR.

EMERGENCY WORKERS, APPARENTLY, HAVE NOT YET BEEN ABLE TO RECOVER THOSE WHO HAVE JUST BEEN KILLED IN THE AREA.

DO YOU KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THAT?

>> I KNOW EMERGENCY WORKERS, THE PEOPLE I'VE SPOKEN TO, MOST OF THE PEOPLE I'VE SPOKEN TO ARE IN THE MIDDLE AREA, AND THEY HAVE SPOKEN TO, YOU KNOW, FAMILY AND FRIENDS IN THE NORTH WHO HAVE SIMPLY DON'T KNOW WHERE LOVED ONES ARE.

I'VE SPOKEN TO EMERGENCY WORKERS WHO IN PAST EXPERIENCES, CHRISTIANE, HAVE SPOKEN ABOUT LOOKING FOR, YOU KNOW, DIGGING THROUGH RUBBLE, DIGGING THROUGH, HEARING VOICES, FOLLOWING VOICES WITH WHATEVER TOOLS THEY HAVE, ONLY TO LEARN THAT ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE IS A FAMILY MEMBER.

SO, THAT'S -- GIVES SOME SENSE.

I KNOW THAT PRETTY MUCH, WELL, NOT PRETTY MUCH, EVERY SINGLE DAY ON AVERAGE THIS MONTH, A SCHOOL -- A SCHOOL, A SHELTER, HAS BEEN STRUCK IN GAZA.

SO, AGAIN, WE ARE -- WE ARE HITTING A LEVEL NOW IN TERMS OF FEROCITY OF ATTACKS.

TWO THINGS ARE HAPPENING TO PEOPLE IN GAZA, CHRISTIANE.

ONE, THEY NEED -- THEY NEED SOME LEVEL OF SAFETY, AND THEY KNOW THERE IS NO SAFETY.

WE'VE SAID THAT FOR 12 MONTHS.

AT THE SAME TIME, THEY NEED HUMANITARIAN AID.

JABALYA, WHERE WE'RE SPEAKING OF, THERE HAS BEEN NO FOOD AID ALLOWED IN THERE THIS ENTIRE MONTH.

COMMERCIAL TRUCKS, WHICH ALONG WITH UNITED NATIONS HAVE BEEN THE LIFELINE OF GETTING MEDICINES, FOOD, WATER, TO CIVILIANS.

THERE'S BEEN NO COMMERCIAL TRUCKS INTO GAZA IN THE LAST FEW DAYS.

THIS IS -- EVERYTHING THAT THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY EVER FEARED, BUT WORSE, SOMEHOW.

NO AID, AND MORE -- MORE ATTACKS ON CIVILIAN AREAS.

>> CAN I -- I WANT TO TRY TO UNDERSTAND WHAT'S GOING ON, BECAUSE THERE'S BEEN A LOT WRITTEN, AND A LOT SPOKEN ABOUT, OF SO-CALLED GENERAL'S PLAN, AND THEY QUOTE A RETIRED MAJOR GENERAL WHO HAS, I MEAN, I THINK IT'S BEEN SHORTENED TO THE STARVATION OR SURRENDER OPTION IN NORTHERN GAZA.

BASICALLY, TO OFFER THE OPPORTUNITY FOR ANYBODY TO GET OUT WITHIN A CERTAIN PERIOD OF TIME, AND AFTER THAT, WHETHER THEY'RE MILITANTS OR CIVILIANS, WHO CHOOSE TO STAY, WHO DON'T LEAVE, THEN THEY ARE FAIR GAME, AS THEY TRY TO, WHAT THEY SAY, ROOT OUT THE FINAL ELEMENTS UP THERE OF THE HAMAS MILITANTS.

HAVE YOU HEARD ANYTHING LIKE THAT?

OR MORE TO THE POINT, ARE YOU SEEING ANY OF THOSE -- THAT OPERATION BEING PUT INTO PLACE, IN OTHER WORDS, ARE PEOPLE BEING TOLD TO LEAVE?

AND AS YOU'VE SAID, YOU KNOW, THESE PLACES ARE -- EVEN THE U.N. SAYS, HAVE BEEN -- WELL, THERE'S BEEN A CONCERTED REDUCTION IN THE AMOUNT OF AID, HUMANITARIAN AID, OVER THE LAST PERIOD, AS YOU'VE JUST MENTIONED.

>> SO, YES, CERTAINLY, IN THE NORTH, THERE IS NO DOUBT THAT THERE ARE FORCED EVACUATIONS GOING CONSISTENTLY.

AND PEOPLE HAVE BEEN PUSHED INTO AREAS THAT ARE SO-CALLED SAFE ZONES, AGAIN, IT IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER THAT THERE ARE TWO THINGS THAT MAKE A SAFE ZONE, ONE, LEGALLY ISRAEL HAS A RESPONSIBILITY AS THE OCCUPYING POWER FOR FOOD, WATER, MEDICINE, THOSE THINGS ARE ABSENT.

THE SECOND ONE, WHICH SHOULDN'T NEED TO BE STATED, A SELF-DECLARED SAFE ZONE, CANNOT BE BOMBED.

THAT'S BEEN HAPPENING.

SO, YES, THERE ARE FORCED EVACUATIONS.

WE'VE SEEN THAT WITH INCREASING INTENSITY IN THE NORTH OVER THE LAST TWO WEEKS.

WE'VE ALSO SEEN REPORTS FROM THE OFFICE OF HIGH COMMISSION FOR HUMAN RIGHTS OF PEOPLE BEING STRUCK OR ATTACKED BY DRONES, AS THEY FLED.

PEOPLE AT CHECKPOINTS BEING -- BEING HIT IN SOME SORT OF MILITARY MEANS.

WE'VE SEEN SCHOOLS IN THE NORTH STRUCK, WE'VE SEEN A FEEDING CENTER STRUCK.

SO, THE NORTH RIGHT NOW IS IN PROBABLY ITS MOST DESPERATE STAGE.

UNFORTUNATELY, EVEN THOSE FAMILIES WHO WANT TO ESCAPE TO THE SOUTH, KNOWING, AGAIN, THAT THE SOUTH HAS A DESPERATE, DESPERATE LACK OF FOOD, WATER, MEDICINE, AN AGENCY LIKE UNICEF, WE'VE BUILT THOUSANDS OF TOILETS, CHRISTIANE, WE HAVE MASSIVELY INCREASED THE LEVEL OF WATER SUPPLY, IT'S NOT NEARLY ENOUGH, BECAUSE WE'VE SEEN A DEPRIVATION OF BOTH AID COMING IN, BUT ALSO -- BUT ALSO COMMERCIAL TRUCKS.

SO, PEOPLE DON'T WANT TO COME TO THE SOUTH, BECAUSE THEY KNOW WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE, AND THEY NOPEN, AS WE SAW OVERNIGHT, AT A HOSPITAL, A HOSPITAL COMPLEX, THERE IS STILL AN ATTACK.

BUT YES, THOSE PEOPLE ARE MOVING SOUTH, UNDER A GREAT DEGREE OF FORCE.

>> AND ON THIS ISSUE, AGAIN, ANOTHER SENIOR -- SENIOR U.N. OFFICIAL IS QUOTED AS BASICALLY SAYING, WE NEED THE ISRAELI MILITARY TO UNDERSTAND THAT WHATEVER IT IS THEY ARE GOING TO BE DOING LONG-TERM HERE, IE, IN GAZA, HUMANITARIAN WORKERS NEED TO GET IN THERE AND DO THEIR WORK PARALLEL TO THAT.

DO YOU THINK THAT'S EVEN POSSIBLE?

>> I THINK I'VE SEEN SOME OF THE BRAVEST COLLEAGUES ON THE GROUND, UNITED NATIONS COLLEAGUES, YOU KNOW, NGOs, NONGOVERNMENT ORGANIZATIONS, PALESTINIANS.

UNFORTUNATELY, WE'VE ALSO SEEN HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS OF AID WORKERS PAY THE DEAREST PRICE, IN THE SAME WAY WE'VE SEEN HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS OF JOURNALISTS.

SO, YES, I CONTINUE TO SEE, YOU KNOW, UNICEF, W.H.O., UNRWA COLLEAGUES, AT THE VERY FRONT LINES, BUT TOO FREQUENTLY, WE'VE SEEING ATTACKS ON UNITED NATIONS CONVOYS.

I'VE SEEN FISHERMEN KILLED IN COLD BLOOD.

YOU KNOW, THERE'S SO MUCH SPOKEN FOR A LONG TIME AROUND A CEASE-FIRE, AND IT WAS ALWAYS -- IT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING, AND I THINK IF WE SAW A CEASE-FIRE IN GAZA, WE WOULD SEE A DE-ESCALATION ACROSS THE REGION.

I THINK ONE THING THAT PEOPLE DON'T RECALL FREQUENTLY ENOUGH AROUND A CEASE-FIRE IS, WHEN WE HAD THE ONLY SUSTAINED HUMANITARIAN PAUSE, CEASE-FIRE IN NOVEMBER, MORE THAN 100 HOSTAGES WERE RELEASED.

THE MAIN GAME TO FREE THESE PEOPLE FROM AN UNIMAGINABLE HELL IN GAZA.

MORE THAN 100.

SINCE THAT TIME, IT'S LESS THAN TEN, TEN HOSTAGES HAVE BEEN -- HAVE BEEN RESCUED.

SO, THERE ARE SO MANY REASONS, AGAIN, WHY YOU HEAR, YOU KNOW, UNITED NATIONS OFFICIALS POINT TO A CEASE-FIRE, AND -- HOSTAGES BEING ONE, AND YET, THEY CONTINUE TO BE IGNORED, AS IT SEEMS THAT, YOU KNOW, THERE ARE -- LEADERSHIP LOOKED AT MILITARY -- A MILITARY SOLUTION TO THIS, WHERE WE KNOW FULL-WELL THERE WILL BE NO SUCH THING IN GAZA OR THE REGION.

IT HAS TO BE POLITICAL.

>> CAN I JUST ASK YOU TO JUST BROADEN BACK THE LENS A LITTLE BIT, BECAUSE THIS IS A WIDENING WAR FOR SURE, IN LEBANON, OVER THE LAST SEVERAL WEEKS NOW, WE HAVE, ACCORDING TO GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS, MORE THAN 1,500 KILLED, MORE THAN 8,000 INJURED SINCE SEPTEMBER 16th.

BUT ALSO, U.N. OFFICIALS WOUNDED AND HAVING BEEN FIRED ON, FORCIBLY -- THEIR BASE WAS ENTERED, STOPPED LOGISTICS, YOU KNOW, THERE'S JUST -- I MEAN, U.N. OFFICIALS, A U.N. BASE WAS -- WAS OVERRUN.

BY THE ISRAELI SOLDIERS.

WHAT MESSAGE DOES THAT SEND?

THESE ARE MEANT TO BE THERE TO TRY TO PATROL, YOU KNOW, WHAT -- WHAT THEY CAN DO, IT'S NOT PERFECT AT ALL, BUT THE ISRAELIS ARE TAKING OVER, THEY SAY, THE U.N. CAN'T DO IT, WE'LL DO IT, AND THIS SEEMS TO BE PART OF THE COLLATERAL DAMAGE.

>> YEAH, I MEAN, I CAN'T SPEAK TO ANOTHER -- ANOTHER AGENCY, BUT I THINK WE -- THERE ARE WORRYING PARALLELS THAT WE SAW FROM THE VERY EARLIEST STAGES OF TWO WEEKS AGO, WHEN -- THE ATTACKS ON LEBANON BOTH WAYS, YOU KNOW, ESCALATED SO GREATLY.

AND WHAT WE SAW VERY QUICKLY WAS A LARGE NUMBER OF CHILDREN BEING KILLED.

AND IT IS NOT SIMPLY ENOUGH TO CLAIM, YOU KNOW, THAT CIVILIANS ARE NOT THE TARGET OF THESE ATTACKS.

THE DEMANDS OF PRECAUTIONS ARE TAKEN, AND THAT HASN'T BEEN THE CASE.

WE'VE SEEN A LARGE NUMBER OF CHILDREN KILLED.

AND THEN WE SAW UP TO A MILLION PEOPLE SUDDENLY DISPLACED AND WE SAW SCHOOLS BECOME SHELTERS EVERYWHERE.

WE SAW LANGUAGE IN TERMS OF THE SAME THING WE'VE HEARD IN GAZA, THESE ARE TARGETED, THESE ARE PROPORTIONAL, IN THE SAME WAY WE SAW, IN EXAMPLE, RAFAH, A LIMITED OFFENSIVE, RAFAH IS ALMOST NOW TOTALLY EMPTY.

IT'S IMPORTANT WE LOOK AT THE LANGUAGE, BECAUSE IN THIS WAR, TRUTH MATTERS.

WE'VE SAID FOR A LONG TIME, IT'S AMERICA'S OWN JFK.

THOSE WHO ARE DETAINED AT CHECKPOINTS WHO ARE DENIED ACCESS, WHO ARE DELAYED, TIME AND AGAIN, RESTRICTED, WHERE THE ONLY CONSISTENCY IS INCONSISTENT -- >> THANKS, JAMES.

>> WE SEE THAT TRUTH.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BRINGING US ALL THAT YOU CAN FROM THERE AND YOUR RECENT VISIT TO GAZA.

>>> NOW, AS THE HUMANITARIAN CRISIS IN GAZA BECOMES MORE DESPERATE, U.S. SUPPORT FOR ISRAEL SHOWS, OF COURSE, NO SIGNS OF SLOWING DOWN.

INDEED, THE UNITED STATES IS SENDING A POWERFUL ANTI-MISSILE SYSTEM TO ISRAEL, AND ABOUT 100 TROOPS TO OPERATE IT, POTENTIALLY WAITING FOR WHAT MIGHT HAPPEN IN TERMS OF ISRAEL TAKING TARGETED ACTION IN IRAN.

BUT PRESSURE IS BUILDING ON PRESIDENT BIDEN TO END THE WAR.

AND WITH JUST THREE WEEKS TO GO UNTIL THE U.S. ELECTION, ANXIETY IS HIGH AMONG DEMOCRATS, AS THE RACE REMAINS LOCKED IN A DEAD HEAT.

HOUSE SPEAKER EMERITA NANCY PELOSI SEES THIS ELECTION AS A CALL TO SAVE DEMOCRACY.

SHE CAME INTO THE STUDIO HERE AND I STARTED BY ASKING HER ABOUT THE SITUATION IN THE MIDDLE EAST, AND WHETHER THE U.S. IS ADEQUATELY APPLYING WHAT LEVERAGE IT HAS IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

SPEAKER PELOSI, WELCOME BACK TO OUR PROGRAM.

>> WONDERFUL BEING HERE, THANK YOU.

>> LET ME ASK YOU FIRST BEFORE WE GET TO YOUR BOOK ABOUT CURRENT AFFAIRS, WE'VE JUST HAD THIS TERRIBLE REPORT ABOUT -- ABOUT THE ISRAELI STRIKES ON GAZA, AND LEBANON.

NOW, AS THEY CONTINUE THEIR COUNTEROFFENSIVES, WE'VE SEEN AN ATTACK ON U.N. PEACEKEEPERS IN LEBANON, AND WE'VE SEEN OVER THE WEEKEND SOME PRETTY DIRE ATTACKS ON REFUGEE CAMP, ON VARIOUS AREAS, DOZENS HAVE BEEN KILLED, INCLUDING CHILDREN.

I JUST WONDER YOUR RESPONSE TO THAT, GIVEN AMERICA IS THE MOST IMPORTANT ALLY.

>> WELL, THE FACT IS THAT WE JUST A FEW DAYS AGO OBSERVED ONE-YEAR ANNIVERSARY OF A TERRIBLE ASSAULT ON ISRAEL BY HAMAS, A TERRORIST GROUP, DEDICATED THE DESTRUCTION OF ISRAEL.

SADLY, SINCE THEN, WE'VE SEEN MANY CASUALTIES OF NONCOMBATANTS, OF CHILDREN, FAMILIES IN GAZA, AND NOW SOME ELSEWHERE IN THE REGION.

AND IT'S JUST INTOLERABLE.

WE CANNOT -- WAR HAS TO BE OUTLAWED AS A RESOLUTION OF ANY CONFLICT OR DISAGREEMENT.

BUT RIGHT NOW, WE HAVE TO LIVE WITH THE CIRCUMSTANCES THAT WE HAVE.

WE'VE ALL BEEN TALKING ABOUT A TWO-STATE SOLUTION FOR A LONG TIME, FOR ISRAEL AND FOR THE PALESTINIANS.

CURRENTLY LEADER IN ISRAEL DOES NOT AGREE TO THAT, EVEN THOUGH FOR ABOUT 30 YEARS, SINCE, LIKE, '93, WE HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT THAT.

I DON'T KNOW IF NETANYAHU WANTS PEACE, I DON'T KNOW IF HE'S CAPABLE OF PEACE, I DON'T KNOW IF HE'S AFRAID OF PEACE, BUT HE'S GONE OFF THE COURSE THAT WE ALL THOUGHT WE WERE IN AS WE SUPPORT ISRAEL.

>> HE ACTUALLY CAME TO THE CONGRESS NOT SO LONG AGO.

WHAT DID YOU MAKE OF THAT INVITATION AND THE WAY HE SPOKE AGAINST YOUR PARTY AND YOUR ADMINISTRATION?

>> WELL, IT WASN'T HIS FIRST TIME TO DO THAT.

HE CAME BEFORE, INVITATION WAS MISRESPECTED, IT WASN'T BIPARTISAN, BUT THE SPEAKER SAID IT WAS, AND SO, HE SHOWED UP AND SPOKE AGAINST PRESIDENT OBAMA, WHOSE MASTERFUL INITIATIVE FOR THE IRAN NUCLEAR AGREEMENT WAS REMARKABLE.

HE CAME AND SPOKE AGAINST OUR PRESIDENT, AND OUR -- AND OUR CONGRESS, IT WAS TERRIBLE.

IT WAS DISGRACEFUL.

THIS SPEECH THAT HE MADE RECENTLY, I THOUGHT, WAS THE WORST PRESENTATION EVER MADE BY A LEADER OF A COUNTRY INVITED TO SPEAK BEFORE THE CONGRESS.

I WAS AGAINST THE INVITATION, BUT I'M NOT THE SPEAKER ANYMORE, AND, OF COURSE, I DID NOT ATTEND.

BUT I DID OBSERVE WHAT HE HAD TO SAY.

IT WAS MOST UNFORTUNATE.

BUT WE ALL SUPPORT ISRAEL, IT IS OUR -- IN OUR NATIONAL INTEREST, OUR SECURITY INTEREST, TO DO SO, OUR VALUES INTEREST TO DO SO OVER TIME, BUT RIGHT NOW, THE LEVERAGE THAT WE HAVE GIVEN NETANYAHU HAS BEEN USED IN A WAY THAT IS MOST DESTRUCTIONIVE.

>> WOULD YOU SAY RIGHT NOW, AND WE SPEAK IN THE CONTEXT OF AN ELECTION THAT ALL FOREIGN POWERS AND LEADERS ARE WATCHING VERY CLOSELY, NOT ONLY YOURSELVES IN THE UNITED STATES.

WOULD YOU SAY RIGHT NOW, AMERICA SHOULD BE USING ITS LEVERAGE, AND IF SO, WHAT IS THAT LEVERAGE?

>> WELL, OUR SUPPORT FOR ISRAEL HAS ALWAYS BEEN BIPARTISAN, AND WE WANT IT TO CONTINUE TO BE SO.

IN THE CONGRESS, IN THE HOUSE AND THE SENATE, THE WHITE HOUSE, AS WELL AS AMONG THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

BUT IT DOES NOT GIVE LICENSE TO SO MANY PEOPLE DYING, NONCOMBATANTS, AS I'VE SAID, IN THE WAR.

SO, WE HAVE TO, AGAIN, TRY TO STRIVE TO BRING IT TO A TWO-STATE SOLUTION.

I EMPHASIZE THE WORD SOLUTION, BECAUSE I'VE SAID THAT TO NETANYAHU, IT'S NOT JUST A TWO-STATE SITUATION, IT'S A SOLUTION, ONE THAT REALLY WORKS OUT THE SECURITY, THE PROSPERITY, THE FREEDOM FOR THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE, AS WELL AS THE SECURITY OF THE ISRAELIS.

>> AND GIVEN THAT THERE'S AN ELECTION, ARE YOU CONCERNED BY THE VERY, VERY DIFFICULT POLLING FOR KAMALA HARRIS, PARTICULARLY REGARDING ARAB AMERICANS, PARTICULARLY IN THE SWING STATE OF MICHIGAN?

>> YEAH.

WELL, IT IS SOMETHING TO BE CONSIDERED.

WHEN WE TALK ABOUT THIS SUBJECT, PEOPLE FORGET, THEY FORGET A MUSLIM BAN INSTITUTED BY THIS PRESIDENT -- ONE OF THE FIRST THINGS -- >> BY PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP.

>> BY DONALD TRUMP, ONE OF THE FIRST THINGS HE DID IN HIS PRESIDENCY, WAS TO HAVE A MUSLIM BAN.

DEMOCRATS FLOCKED TO THEIR PROTECTION, AND, YET, THIS IS WHAT -- WHAT DONALD TRUMP DID.

AND NOW -- AND NOW BECAUSE OF THIS SITUATION, WHICH, AGAIN, JOE BIDEN HAS BEEN A FRIEND OF ISRAEL, THAT'S FOR SURE, BUT HE HAS ALSO BEEN A FRIEND OF THE PALESTINIANS.

AND EVEN BEFORE OCTOBER 7th, WHEN WE WERE MEETING OUR SEPTEMBER 30th DEADLINE FOR THE BUDGET, I WAS GOING TO THE REPUBLICANS AND ASKING FOR HUMANITARIAN ASSISTANCE FOR REFUGEES, THEY SAID, WE'LL GIVE YOU THAT, AS LONG AS IT'S NOT USED FOR THE PALESTINIANS.

SO, THE FACT THAT SHE WOULD BE PAYING A PRICE IS -- FOR POLICIES THAT WERE VERY PRO-PALESTINIAN IS REALLY -- IS REALLY SAD.

BUT DEATH IS SAD, AND THAT IS BEING REFLECTED.

I'M NOT SURE IT'S ALL SPONTANEOUS.

SOME OF IT IS, IT'S SPONTANEOUS, IT'S GRASS ROOTS, IT'S TRULY THAT.

I THINK SOME OF IT IS MOTIVATED FOR OTHER REASONS.

>> LET ME TALK ABOUT YOUR BOOK NOW, CALLED "THE ART OF POWER."

YOU HAVE SAID IN YOUR BOOK, I KNOW DONALD TRUMP'S MENTAL IMBALANCE.

I HAD SEEN IT UP CLOSE.

HIS DENIAL AND THEN DELAYS WHEN THE COVID PANDEMIC STRUCK.

HIS PENCHANT FOR REPEATEDLY STOMPING OUT OF MEETINGS, HIS FOUL MOUTH.

HIS POUNDING ON TABLES, HIS TEMPER TANTRUMS, HIS DISRESPECT FOR OUR NATION'S PATRIOTS AND HIS TOTAL SEPARATION FROM REALITY AND ACTUAL EVENTS.

YOU KNOW -- HOW DID YOU DEAL WITH THAT, AND DO YOU THINK THIS COUNTRY, YOUR COUNTRY, CAN SURVIVE ANOTHER TERM?

>> WELL, I'VE SAID IT OVER AND OVER AGAIN, ONE TERM, OUR COUNTRY IS STRONG ENOUGH TO WITHSTAND.

BUT WHEN YOU SEE -- HE'S EVEN GOTTEN WORSE SINCE I WROTE THAT.

HE'S SAYING IN THIS CAMPAIGN THAT HE WILL CRIMINALIZE ANY COMMENTS THAT ARE CRITICIZING HIS ACTIONS.

CRIMINALIZE FREEDOM OF SPEECH.

OF COURSE WILL HAVE A BAN ON ABORTION, A NATIONAL BAN OF ABORTION.

>> EVEN THOUGH HE SAYS HE WON'T.

>> IF HE LIPS ARE MOVING, HE'S NOT TELLING THE TRUTH.

WHEN YOU GO TO SO MANY OF THE THINGS THAT HE IS DOING, WHAT IS A DEMOCRACY?

THAT'S WHAT'S ON THE BALLOT.

A DEMOCRACY IS FREE AND FAIR ELECTIONS, PEACEFUL TRANSFER OF POWER, INDEPENDENT JUDICIARY, IT'S ABOUT HAVING RESPECT FOR OUR CONSTITUTION, WHICH WE TAKE AND OATH TO PROTECT AND DEFEND.

HE SAYS MAYBE WE SHOULD TERMINATE THE CONSTITUTION.

SO, I DON'T KNOW THAT A COUNTRY CAN WITHSTAND -- ITS CHARACTER CAN WITHSTAND ANOTHER TERM OF DONALD TRUMP, BUT WE'RE NOT -- WE DON'TING A NICE.

WE ORGANIZE.

WE MADE A DECISION TO WIN THIS ELECTION, AND IT DEPENDS ON THE TURNOUT.

THE POLLS ARE CLOSE, YES, WE DON'T KNOW HOW RELIABLE THEY ARE, BUT LET'S ASSUME THAT THEY ARE, FOR THE MOMENT, AND JUST UNDERSTAND THAT WE MUST OWN THE GROUND, TURN OUT THE VOTE, HAVE A MESSAGE THAT IS APPEALING AND UNIFYING, NOT DIVIDING IN OUR COUNTRY, AND, OF COURSE, THE THREE Ms, MOBILIZATION, MESSAGE, AND THE MONEY TO GET THE JOB DONE.

AND THAT'S COMING IN AT THE GRASS ROOTS LEVEL.

>> YOU ARE ONE OF THE MOST SAVVIEST VOTERS AND GETTERS IN DEMOCRATIC HISTORY, DO YOU FEEL CONFIDENCE THAT THOSE THREE Ms AND THE GROUND GAME AND GET OUT THE VOTE IS WHERE YOU WANT IT TO BE RIGHT NOW?

>> I THINK SO.

YES.

I -- WHEN YOU SAY IS IT WHERE IT IS RIGHT NOW, IT HAS TO CONTINUE TO BE.

ONE OF THE REASONS I'M IN LONDON IS TO DO THE AMERICANS ABROAD, MAKE SURE THAT PEOPLE GET THEIR VOTES IN.

WHEN WE WON THE HOUSE IN 2018, TO STOP HIM AFTER HE WON IN '16, MANY OF THE DIFFERENCES WERE MADE IN THESE DISTRICTS BY THE VOTES OF DEMOCRATS ABROAD, OR JUST PEOPLE ABROAD, BUT WE'RE APPEALING TO THE DEMOCRATS ABROAD.

SO, WE'RE IN A GOOD PLACE, I'M VERY PROUD OF KAMALA HARRIS AND TIM WALZ, THEY HAVE THE VISION OF OUR FOUNDERS, WHICH THEY SHARE, THE VALUES OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, WHICH ARE SO IMPORTANT.

SHE'S STRONG, SHE'S STRONG OFFICIALLY, POLICY, STRATEGY, PRESENTATION, AND THE REST.

SHE'S POLITICALLY ASTUTE.

SHE WOULDN'T BE THE NOMINEE IF SHE WERE NOT.

AND SO, SHE CAN TAKE US TO VICTORY, AS WELL AS WIN THE HOUSE, THE SENATE, AND THE STATE RACES, AS WELL.

>> THEY SAY NANCY PELOSI IS WHO AND WHAT CONVINCED PRESIDENT BIDEN THAT HE HAD TO RECONSIDER, AND AS YOU FAMOUSLY PUT IT, MAKE THE DECISION ABOUT WHETHER HE'S GOING TO RUN OR NOT GOING TO RUN.

YOU KNOW, YOU'VE BEEN ASKED A LOT ABOUT IT, BUT WHAT IS YOUR RELATIONSHIP NOW WITH HIM?

YOU'VE ALWAYS PROFESSED TO BE SO FOND OF HIM AND OBVIOUSLY HE'S DONE INCREDIBLE LEGISLATION WITH ALL OF YOUR HELP IN CONGRESS DURING HIS PRESIDENCY, AND ET CETERA, HE'S BEEN IN CONGRESS FOR SO MANY DECADES.

>> YES.

>> DO YOU TALK TO HIM SINCE JULY?

>> I HAVEN'T SPOKEN TO HIM SINCE JULY, BUT OF COURSE, WE'VE BEEN OUT OF SESSION FOR AWHILE, AND I'VE BEEN ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL CONSTANTLY.

I HAVE GREAT RESPECT FOR THE PRESIDENT.

I THINK HIS LEGACY IS A VERY SUBSTANTIAL ONE FOR OUR COUNTRY.

IT IS OUR LEGACY, TOO.

I DID NOT WANT THAT TO BE LOST.

MY CONCERN WAS ABOUT WINNING THE ELECTION.

YOU MAKE A DECISION TO WIN.

AND THEN YOU HAVE TO MAKE EVERY DECISION IN FAVOR OF WINNING.

ON THAT GROUND WITH THE MOBILIZATION, MESSAGE, NONMENACING, AND THE MONEY TO WIN, AND -- AND -- AND, WHO IS THE CANDIDATE?

NOW, MY CONCERNS WERE AROUND THE CAMPAIGN.

NOT ABOUT THE CANDIDATE.

HE'S FABULOUS.

BUT THE CAMPAIGN, I THOUGHT, WAS NOT GOING IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION, AND I EXPRESSED MY CONCERN ABOUT THAT.

IT WAS UP TO THE PRESIDENT TO MAKE THE DECISION WHETHER HE WOULD CONTINUE TO RUN.

HE MADE THAT DECISION.

>> YOU THINK YOU COULD HAVE WON WITH HIM AS THE CANDIDATE?

>> IT'S HARD TO ASK ME THAT QUESTION, BECAUSE I DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW ANYBODY COULD VOTE FOR DONALD TRUMP, BUT THEY DO.

AND SO, WE HAVE TO BE PREPARED.

I DO THINK THERE WAS A GENERATIONAL THING, THOUGH, THAT HAD TO BE RECOGNIZED, THE TWO OF THEM, SO OLD TO BE RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT.

>> YOU TALK ABOUT TRUMP, I WANT TO PLAY WHAT TRUMP ACTUALLY SAID ABOUT DEMOCRACY AND ABOUT, YOU KNOW, HOW IT MIGHT WORK OUT, HE SAID IT TO FOX NEWS ON SUNDAY, AND HE WAS TALKING ABOUT AN ENEMY WITHIN, I DON'T KNOW WHETHER YOU CAUGHT IT, BUT HERE'S A BIT OF IT.

>> I THINK THE BIGGER PROBLEM IS THE ENEMY FROM WITHIN.

NOT EVEN THE PEOPLE THAT HAVE COME IN AND DESTROYING OUR COUNTRY, BY THE WAY, TOTALLY DESTROYING OUR COUNTRY, THE TOWNS, THE VILLAGES, THEY'RE BEING INUNDATED.

BUT I DON'T THINK WE HAVE A PROBLEM IN TERMS OF ELECTION DAY, I THINK THE BIGGER PROBLEM IS THE PEOPLE FROM WITHIN.

WE HAVE SOME SICK PEOPLE, RADICAL LEFT LUNATICS, SHOULD BE VERY EASILY HANDLED, IF NECESSARY, BY NATIONAL GUARD, OR IF REALLY NECESSARY, BY THE MILITARY.

>> HE PROBABLY INCLUDES YOU IN THE RADICAL LEFT, AND PROBABLY INCLUDES YOU AS AN ENEMY FROM WITHIN.

NATIONAL GUARD, MILITARY?

>> WHAT YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND ABOUT THE FORMER PRESIDENT IS, HE'S ALWAYS PROJECTING.

WHEN HE TALKS ABOUT THE ENEMY WITHIN, HE'S TALKING ABOUT HIMSELF AND HIS SUPPORTERS.

AND WHEN HE'S TALKING ABOUT ACTIONS THAT MAY BE TAKEN, HE'S TALKING ABOUT WHAT THEY HAVE DONE, WHAT THEY ARE DOING, RIGHT NOW, AND WHAT THEY MAY CONTINUE TO DO.

SO, UNDERSTAND, WHEN HE SAYS CROOKED HILLARY, HE KNOWS HE'S CROOKED.

WHEN HE SAYS CRAZY NANCY, HE KNOWS HE'S CRAZY.

WHEN HE SAYS THE ENEMY WITHIN, HE'S TALKING ABOUT HIMSELF.

>> LET ME ASK YOU, BECAUSE IT'S VERY, VERY MINUTE-BY-MINUTE AND GRIPPINGLY WRITTEN, YOUR MEMORIES AND EXPERIENCE OF -- OF JANUARY 6th.

WHEN THEY WERE ACTUALLY LOOKING FOR NANCY, THEY WERE COMING AFTER YOU.

I WANT TO ASK YOU TO READ A PARAGRAPH THAT YOU WRITE ABOUT, AND THE QUESTION REALLY IS, HOW SCARED WERE YOU AT THAT TIME?

YOUR DAUGHTER WAS THERE, SHE WAS DOING THIS FILM ABOUT YOU -- >> I WASN'T AFRAID FOR MYSELF, BUT I WAS AFRAID FOR THE MEMBERS AND THE STAFF AND THE PRESS WHO WERE THERE TO COVER THAT.

I WAS AFRAID FOR THE PEOPLE WHO KEEP THE CAPITAL IN ORDER, BECAUSE THEY WERE BEING INSULTED.

THESE PEOPLE WHO CAME WERE DEFECATING ON THE FLOOR OF THE CAPITOL, THEY WERE GROTESQUE.

THEY WERE THE ENEMY WITHIN.

AND CONTINUE TO BE.

SO -- SO, FOR ME, I HAVE A LOT OF SECURITY.

I WAS SPEAKER, LINE OF SUCCESSION, SO, I HAD A LOT OF SECURITY.

I WASN'T CONCERNED ABOUT THAT.

I WAS CONCERNED FOR THE VICE PRESIDENT.

I KNEW WHAT THEY WERE SAYING ABOUT HIM.

I KNEW THEY WERE COMING TO PUT A BULLET IN MY HEAD, THAT'S WHAT THEY SAID, BUT I'VE BEEN A TARGET FOR A LONG TIME.

HE WAS A TARGET THAT DAY.

AND I WORRIED ABOUT HIM AND I SPOKE TO HIM ABOUT THAT AT THAT TIME.

>> THE VICE PRESIDENT.

>> THE VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE.

BUT HE DID THE RIGHT THING FOR OUR COUNTRY, HE IS NOT SUPPORTING THIS PERSON FOR PRESIDENT.

THE FORMER PRESIDENT.

AND I'M HAPPY TO -- >> YES.

>> READ THAT PARAGRAPH, BECAUSE IT'S QUITE DRAMATIC.

>> BECAUSE I WAS CONCERNED ABOUT MY COLLEAGUES, THEY DID NOT HAVE THE SECURITY I HAD, EVEN THOUGH THEY HAVE THE SECURITY.

THE LAWMAKERS INSIDE THE CHAMBER HAD TRULY HARROWING EXPERIENCES.

JAMIE RASKIN, STILL ON THE HOUSE FLOOR, HAD LISTENED AS FELLOW MEMBERS CALLED THEIR SPOUSES TO TELL THEM GOOD-BYE.

AS HAD THE VICE PRESIDENT'S SECURITY DETAIL.

JAMIE AND OTHER REPRESENTATIVES HAD DONNED GAS MASKS BECAUSE THE TEAR GAS CANISTERS WERE BEING FIRED IN THE HALLWAYS.

THE HOUSE CHAPLAIN SAID A PRAYER, AS MEMBERS PULLED OUT THE PLASTIC VENTILATOR HOODS OUTFITTED WITH AIR FILTERS THAT WERE DISCREETLY HIDDEN IN POUCHES UNDER THEIR SEATS.

UNTIL THAT MOMENT, MANY HAD NO IDEA THAT THE PROTECTIVE HOODS WERE THERE.

THEY HAD BEEN ADDED TO THE HOUSE CHAMBER AS PART OF THE ENHANCED SECURITY PRECAUTIONS PUT IN PLACE AFTER 9/11.

THIS IS IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

>> AND -- IT'S THE FIRST THAT WE HEAR ABOUT THOSE MASKS, FIRST AND FOREMOST, AND THAT MEMBERS WERE CALLING THEIR FAMILIES TO SAY GOOD-BYE.

>> SAY GOOD-BYE.

AND WHAT WAS REALLY SAD ABOUT IT WAS THAT AFTER ALL THIS HAPPENED, AND REPUBLICAN AND DEMOCRATIC MEMBERS WERE IN THAT CHAMBER, AS WELL, AFTER ALL THIS HAPPENED, AND PEOPLE SAID TO ME, YOU'VE GOT TO DO WHATEVER YOU'RE GOING TO DO AT AN UNDISCLOSED LOCATION ABOUT APPROVING THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE VOTE, I SAID, NO, WE'RE GOING TO THE FLOOR.

WE'RE SHOWING THE AMERICAN PEOPLE AND THE WORLD THAT AMERICA -- THAT WE HAVE PREVAILED, AND THAT THESE PEOPLE HAVE NOT WON.

BUT WHEN THAT HAPPENED, OVERWHELMINGLY LED BY THE REPUBLICAN LEADERSHIP, THEY VOTED AGAINST THE CERTIFICATION OF THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE.

>> EVEN AFTER THIS.

>> EVEN AFTER THEY SAW ALL OF THAT.

>> WHAT DO YOU SAY TO PEOPLE, BECAUSE TRUMP, HIS SUPPORTERS AND HIS CAMPAIGN WOULD SAY, OH, PEOPLE LIKE YOURSELF OR WHOEVER SAYS THE KIND OF THINGS YOU'RE SAYING ABOUT HIM AND WARNING ABOUT, YOU KNOW, THE AUTHORITARIANISM, THE THREAT TO DEMOCRACY, THEY SAY, QUOTE UNQUOTE, TRUMP DERANGEMENT SYNDROME.

THAT EVERYBODY'S JUST HYSTERICAL, THINGS WERE GREAT UNDER HIS PRESIDENCY, AND THERE'S NO NEED TO FEAR.

>> WELL, IT'S A REALLY SAD THING, AND DON'T ASK ME WHY ANYBODY WOULD VOTE FOR HIM, BUT SOME PEOPLE ARE JUST VERY ANTI- ANTI-WOMAN, ANTI-NEWCOMER, ANTI-LGBTQ, ANTI-DIVERSITY AND THE REST, AND WE'LL NEVER GET THEIR VOTE.

AND THEN VERY RICH PEOPLE, BILLIONAIRES, THEY DON'T WANT TO PAY TAXES, THEY DON'T WANT ANY REGULATION OF CLEAN AIR, CLEAN WATER, ANY OF THAT.

THEY JUST WANT NOT TO PAY TAXES.

AND SOME OF THEM DON'T PAY ANY AND SOME PAY -- DO NOT PAIR THEIR FAIR SHARE, SO, THEY FUND THIS.

IN BETWEEN, THERE ARE PEOPLE WHOSE VIEWS ARE VERY -- OF GREAT CONCERN TO OUR COUNTRY.

THEY ARE CONCERNED ABOUT INNOVATION, WHAT DOES THIS MEAN FOR MY FAMILY, FOR ME AND FOR MY FAMILY, IN TERMS OF JOBS?

THEY'RE CONCERNED ABOUT GLOBALIZATION.

THERE WAS A FACTORY DOWN THE ROAD AND NOW IT'S GONE.

AND THOSE ARE LEGITIMATE CONCERNS, WHICH JOE BIDEN AND KAMALA HARRIS ADDRESSED AS WE DID IN THE CONGRESS, IN OUR BILLS.

IN THE RESCUE PACKAGE, IN THE CHIPS AND SCIENCE BILL, IN THE PACT ACT, IN THE I.R.A.

>> CHILD POVERTY.

>> ALL OF IT.

>> WELL, THEY DON'T CARE SO MUCH ABOUT CHILD POVERTY, EVEN THOUGH MANY OF THEM BENEFIT FROM IT, BENEFIT FROM OUR INVESTMENTS IN CHILD POVERTY.

BUT I WOULD SAY THAT MOST -- NO.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT HELD UP THE BUDGET THIS YEAR WAS, THEY -- REPUBLICANS WERE RELUCTANT TO FUND FOOD, NUTRITION, FOR WOMEN AND CHILDREN WHO NEEDED FOOD.

SO, I WOULDN'T SAY THAT THEY ARE TOO CONCERNED ABOUT CHILD POVERTY.

>> FINALLY, I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT YOUR OWN FAMILY.

>> YEAH.

>> A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO, YOU AGAIN WERE A TARGET, BUT THEY GOT YOUR HUSBAND AT YOUR HOUSE IN SAN FRANCISCO.

AND THEY VIOLENTLY, THIS GUY, VIOLENTLY ATTACKED YOUR HUSBAND WITH A HAMMER.

AND IT HAS BEEN A LONG PROCESS OF REHABILITATION.

HOW IS HE DOING?

HOW WERE YOU ABLE TO TALK TO HIM ABOUT IT, HOW HAS YOUR DAUGHTER PROCESSED IT?

>> WELL, THANK YOU FOR ASKING, AND I KNOW HE'LL BE COMFORTED TO KNOW THAT YOU CARED.

HE -- IT WAS -- TWO YEARS, END OF OCTOBER IS WHEN THIS HAPPENED, RIGHT BEFORE THE ELECTION TWO YEARS AGO, AND WHERE IS NANCY, WHERE IS NANCY, WAS THE SAME THING THAT WAS SAID IN THE CAPITOL BY THE SAME CROWD, THIS GUY.

THAT HE -- VIOLATED THE SANCTITY OF OUR HOME, THAT HE VIOLENTLY ATTACKED MY HUSBAND, LOOKING FOR ME.

A HORRIBLE EXPERIENCE FOR ANYONE TO HAVE.

BUT WHAT'S REALLY DOUBLY SAD WAS, WHEN -- MAYBE EVEN MORE SO, WAS WHEN THIS HAPPENED, WHEN WE DIDN'T EVEN KNOW IF HE WOULD LIVE, THE FORMER PRESIDENT, HIS SON, THE GOVERNOR OF VIRGINIA, ELON MUSK, PEOPLE LIKE THAT, THOUGHT IT WAS REALLY FUNNY.

THEY WERE MAKING JOKES ON THEIR -- IN THE SOCIAL MEDIA, OH, IT WAS JUST A VERY FUNNY THING.

FROM A STANDPOINT OF PHYSICAL VIOLENCE, THAT'S ONE THING TO REPAIR FROM.

TRAUMA IS ANOTHER THING.

WHETHER IT WAS OUR VOLUNTEERS, OUR STAFF IN THE CAPITOL ON JANUARY 6th, OR MY CHILDREN AND GRANDCHILDREN AND OUR FAMILY, THE TRAUMA OF OUR FATHER, OUR POP, BEING ATTACKED, AND THEY THOUGHT IT WAS REALLY FUNNY.

IT -- PHYSICAL VIOLENCE AND THE TRAUMA THAT GOES WITH IT, SOMETHING WE MUST REMOVE FROM OUR POLITICS, INCLUDING, SADLY, THE ASSASSINATION ATTEMPTS ON THE PRESIDENT, WHICH WE ALL CONDEMNED AS OPPOSED TO WHAT THEY DID WHEN I HAD THE ATTACK ON MY FAMILY.

SO, HE'S COMING ALONG.

IT WILL TAKE AWHILE, BUT HE -- WE'RE GLAD HE'S WITH US, BECAUSE IT WAS A CENTIMETER AWAY FROM NOT BEING WITH US, BECAUSE OF THIS PERSON WHO WAS FOLLOWING UP ON MY COMMENTS ABOUT THE OTHER SIDE.

>> YOU HAVE KEPT GOING IN TERMS OF -- KEPT RUNNING FOR RE-ELECTION.

>> YEAH.

>> AND SEVERAL TIMES YOU'VE HAD, AND I REMEMBER YOU SAYING IT TO ME ONCE A LONG TIME AGO, AS LONG AS HE'S THERE, I'M THERE, SO, YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT TRUMP.

DO YOU STILL FEEL THAT?

ARE YOU GOING TO KEEP GOING?

I KNOW YOU'RE RUNNING IN THIS ELECTION.

>> RIGHT NOW, WE HAVE TO WIN THE ELECTION.

WE DON'TING A NICE, WE ORGANIZE, ONE GOOD DAY IN FRONT OF ANOTHER, NO WASTED TIME, NO UNDERUTILIZED RESOURCES, AND NO REGRETS THE DAY AFTER THE ELECTION, THAT WE COULD HAVE DONE SOMETHING BETTER OR MORE MORE.

BECAUSE WE DO HAVE A PLAN.

BUT THIS IS A DIFFERENT ELECTION.

IT'S NOT JOHN McCAIN, IT'S NOT MITT ROMNEY, IT'S NOT GEORGE BUSH, IT'S NOT BOB DOLE.

THEY WERE ALL PATRIOTIC AMERICANS, AND WHATEVER THE OUTCOME IS THE OUTCOME.

THIS IS SOMEBODY VERY SERIOUSLY DANGEROUS TO OUR DEMOCRACY, TO OUR PERSONAL FREEDOMS, WHICH ARE PART OF OUR DEMOCRACY, AND TO OUR REPUTATION IN THE WORLD.

SO -- THERE'S NO WAY -- MAKING A DECISION TO STAY WAS TO MAKE A DECISION TO MAKE SURE HE NEVER STEPS FOOT IN THE WHITE HOUSE AGAIN.

IN ANY EVENT, TIME WILL TELL, AND WHATEVER IT IS, WE WILL ACCEPT THE RESULTS OF THE ELECTION.

THAT'S SOMETHING THEY WON'T EVEN SAY.

THEY STILL HAVEN'T ACCEPTED THE RESULTS OF THE LAST ELECTION.

>> SPEAKER PELOSI, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>> MY PLEASURE TO BE HERE, THANK YOU.

>>> JUST TODAY, KAMALA HARRIS UNVEILED A NEW ECONOMIC PLAN TO PROVIDE MORE OPPORTUNITIES FOR BLACK MEN.

PART OF THE DEMOCRATS' BROADER EFFORT TO SECURE THE BLACK VOTE.

THEODORE R. JOHNSON IS AN EXPERT ON THIS ISSUE.

HIS NEW BOOK, "IF WE ARE BRAVE: ESSAYS FROM BLACK AMERICANA," IS WITH MICHEL MARTIN TO TAKE US THROUGH THOSE FIRST-HAND ACCOUNTS.

>> CHRISTIANE, THANK YOU.

THEODORE JOHNSON, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> GOOD TO BE HERE.

>> YOU ARE KIND OF A DIFFERENT ANIMAL WHEN IT COMES TO, YOU KNOW, SORT OF PUNDITRY, PER SE.

20-YEAR NAVY VETERAN, YOU ARE A COLUMNIST FOR MAJOR NEWS OUTLETS, AND YOU'RE AN AUTHOR.

SO, IT'S KIND OF HARD TO PIGEON HOLE YOU, JUST LIKE IT'S KIND OF HARD TO PIGEON HOLE THIS BOOK.

HOW DO YOU DESCRIBE IT?

>> THE BOOK IS AN ESSAY COLLECTION, AND SORT OF THE TRADITIONAL SENSE OF THE TERM, FOR BLACK WRITERS IN PARTICULAR.

I MEAN, IT'S PROBABLY TOO MUCH PRAISE, BUT I THINK OF IT IN THE SAME VEIN OF WRITING AS, LIKE, THE HARLEM RENAISSANCE AND THE ESSAYISTS OF THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT, THAT WERE VERY RIGOROUS IN THEIR JOURNALISM, IN THEIR RESEARCH.

BUT HAD A COMMON TOUCH IN HOW THEY RELAYED VERY COMPLICATED AND COMPLEX ISSUES TO A JOURNAL PUBLIC.

SO, I -- I SORT OF THINK OF MY CAREER AS PROVIDING THE PERFECT BACKGROUND, OR SET OF LIFE EXPERIENCES, THAT ALLOW ME TO TACKLE BIG TOPICS IN ESSAY FORM, WHILE ALSO INCORPORATING THE VERY RIGOROUSLY RESEARCHED INSIGHTS THAT I HOPE TO BRING FORWARD IN THE WRITING.

>> I SEE IT AS REFLECTIONS ON WHAT IT MEANS TO BE AN AMERICAN, IT'S REFLECTIONS ON DEMOCRACY, BUT FROM A VERY DISTINCTLY AFRICAN AMERICAN, YOU KNOW, PERSPECTIVE.

WHY DID YOU FEEL WE NEED TO HAVE THESE CONVERSATIONS RIGHT NOW?

>> YEAH, SO, MOST OF IT IS BECAUSE THERE SEEMS TO BE A FIGHT OVER THE IDENTITY OF THIS COUNTRY, AND THE PEOPLE THAT BELONG HERE.

SOME FOLKS WANT TO TAKE US BACK HUNDREDS OF YEARS, AND OTHERS SAY, WE'VE NOT REALIZED THE POTENTIAL OF THE COUNTRY.

SO, MAYBE WE SHOULD DO THE WORK TO GET TO THAT PLACE, TO ENGAGE WITH THE IDEA, THE IDENTITY, OUR HISTORY, AND MEDITATE ON, WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BELONG IN THIS COUNTRY?

SO, IT STRIKES TO TAKE BEING IDEAS, DEMOCRACY, POLICE BRUTALITY, RACISM, AND INSTEAD OF TALKING ABOUT STRUCTURAL RACISM OR THE NEED FOR CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORM, I WANTED TO TALK ABOUT THE EXPERIENCE OF PEOPLE IN THIS SYSTEM.

THE EXPERIENCE OF AMERICANS, WHITE, BLACK, ALL RACES, ETHNICITIES, ALL OF US ARE LIVING IN THE SAME SYSTEM THAT'S UNDERPERFORMING WHAT IT COULD BE.

>> ONE OF THE INTERESTING THINGS YOU DO, THOUGH, IN THE BOOK, YOU KIND OF COMPARE THE EXPERIENCE OF UNDERSTANDING YOUR AMERICAN-NESS, AND YOU COMPARE THAT IN YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH BEING A PERSON OF FAITH.

AND THEY YOU KIND OF DRAW THAT AS AN ANALOGY OF HOW WE KIND OF FALL IN AND OUT OF -- IN AND OUT OF LOVE, IF I CAN PUT IT THAT WAY, WITH THE DEMOCRATIC EXPERIMENT, WITH THE AMERICAN IDEA.

DO YOU WANT TO TALK MORE ABOUT THAT?

>> YEAH, SO YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

THE FIRST ESSAY, THE LEAD ESSAY IS ESSENTIALLY TED JOHNSON'S SERMON ON DEMOCRACY, AS DELIVERED BY THIS BLACK BOY FROM NORTH CAROLINA WHO GREW UP GOING TO CHURCH THREE, FOUR TIMES A WEEK.

AND SO, IT'S ALMOST LIKE, THIS IS MY CONVERSION STORY.

AND THE REASON THAT'S IMPORTANT IS BECAUSE DEMOCRACY'S LEGITIMACY AS A SYSTEM IS AN ARTICLE OF FAITH IN EVERY PERSON THAT PARTICIPATES.

IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE THAT THE OUTCOMES IN THE DEMOCRACY ARE LEGITIMATE, IT RESULTS IN CATASTROPHE.

WE WERE ALL AROUND FOR JANUARY 6th, WE SAW WHAT HAPPENED WHEN THE LEGITIMACY OF INSTITUTIONS AND PROCESSES ARE QUESTIONED.

PEOPLE DIED.

SYSTEMS GET, YOU KNOW, SORT OF OVERTURNED, OR UNRAVELED.

AND SO, WE HAVE TO BELIEVE THE SYSTEM IS WORTH INVESTING IN, IF WE'RE GOING TO COMMIT TO THE WORK OF MAKING IT MORE INCLUSIVE AND TO THE WORK OF REFORMING IT.

IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE THAT DEMOCRACY IS THE ANSWER, IT'S VERY HARD TO GET PEOPLE TO INVEST IN VOTING, TO INVEST IN -- IN THE POLITICAL SYSTEM AND ITS OUTCOMES, TO SEE THOSE AS LEGITIMATE.

AND IF WE'RE COMMITTED TO BOTH THE COUNTRY AND THE PROCESS FOR IMPROVING THE COUNTRY, THEN OUTCOMES CAN BE BETTER, THAN IF WE DON'T BELIEVE IN THE COUNTRY AND BELIEVE THAT THE SYSTEM IS NO LONGER USEFUL, THEN WE'RE AT A DIFFERENT STARTING POINT, WHICH COULD, YOU KNOW, TURN VERY UGLY VERY QUICKLY.

>> WELL, I CAN MAKE AN ARGUMENT THAT IT'S ALREADY TURNED VERY UGLY VERY QUICKLY, IF YOU CONSIDER THAT ON JANUARY 6th, PEOPLE DIED.

YOU KNOW, WE'RE REALLY LUCKY THAT MORE PEOPLE DIDN'T DIE.

BUT A LOT OF PEOPLE WERE HURT, A LOT OF PEOPLE, PARTICULARLY OUR FIRST RESPONDERS, LOST THEIR CAREERS, IF NOT THEIR LIVES, BECAUSE THEY WERE SO BADLY INJURED, THEY COULDN'T WORK AGAIN.

>> IT'S UGLY.

BUT IN THE 1960s, A PRESIDENT WAS ASSASSINATED, AN ATTORNEY AND PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE WAS ASSASSINATED, MARTIN LUTHER KING, MALCOLM X, ASSASSINATED, HUNDREDS OF PROTESTS IN THE SUMMER OF '68.

THE VIETNAM WAR PROTESTS WHERE STUDENTS AT KENT STATE WERE KILLED.

SO IF WE THINK JANUARY 6th WAS BAD, OUR GRANDPARENTS WOULD SAY, CHILDREN, YOU HAVE NOT SEEN ANYTHING YET.

IT'S A WARNING IF WE DON'T HEED HISTORY, IF WE DON'T HEED THE LIFE EXPERIENCES OF THOSE WHO CAME BEFORE US, WE -- AS THE OLD SAYING GOES, WE'RE DOOMED TO REPEAT THESE THINGS, AND JANUARY 6th, INSTEAD OF BECOMING THIS TERRIBLE DAY FOLLOWING A PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION, BECOMES THE BEGINNING OF A TERRIBLE DECADE, LIKE THE '60s, LIKE THE 1860s, AND WE'VE GOT AN OPPORTUNITY TO AVOID THAT OUTCOME, BUT ONLY IF WE GET AHEAD OF THE PROBLEM NOW.

>> I WANT TO READ SOMETHING FROM THE BOOK, YOU SAY, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT YOUR PLEA, YOUR DESIRE THAT PEOPLE ENGAGE IN THIS REIMAGINATION, AS YOU PUT IT.

YOU SAID, REIMAGINE NATION, HOWEVER, IS TRICKY BUSINESS.

IT ARISES FROM THE PREMISE THAT WHO WE ARE IS NO LONGER SUFFICIENT, OR IS DEEPLY FLAWED IN SOME WAY.

E GO, WHETHER PERSONAL OR NATION, DOES NOT LIKE CONFRONTING THE TRUTH.

IT'S UNCOMFORTABLE AND INVITES AN IDENTITY CRISIS.

WHEN A NATION AS LARGE AND DIVERSE AS THE UNITED STATES IS OVERDUE FOR AN REIMAGINATION, THOSE AT THE CENTER OF THE NARRATIVE ARE LIKELY TO FEEL THREATENED.

YOU CAN UNDERSTAND PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN LEFT OUT OF THE NATIONAL NARRATIVE WANT IN, BUT WHY SHOULD THE PEOPLE YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT HERE, WHO SEE THEMSELVES AS THREATENED OR BEING DISPLACED OR NOT WANTING TO BE -- WHY SHOULD THEY PARTICIPATE IN THIS KIND OF REIMAGINATION THAT YOU TALK ABOUT?

>> WELL, IF THEY TRULY BELIEVE IN THE FOUNDING IDEALS OF THE COUNTRY, NOT LIP SERVICE STUFF, BUT IF THEY TRULY BELIEVE IN IT, THEY DON'T HAVE A CHOICE.

I THINK IT WAS SAID, IN THE FIRST PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION IN 1790, 6% OF THE PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY WERE ELIGIBLE TO VOTE AND ONLY HALF DID.

THE STORY OF OUR DEMOCRACY IS THE STORY OF EXCLUDED PEOPLE SEEKING PARTICIPATION.

AND WHEN THEY ARE DENIED THAT PARTICIPATION, THEY ARE ALSO AMERICANS, AND AMERICANS DON'T TAKE LIGHTLY TO BE TOLD YOU'RE LESS THAN, YOU DON'T GET TO HAVE FREEDOM, IT'S JUST FOR THESE OTHER PEOPLE, YOU DON'T GET TO HAVE LIBERTY AND RIGHTS OR ACCESS TO DEMOCRACY, IT'S FOR OTHER PEOPLE.

SO, IF THEY DO NOT MAKE DEMOCRACY A MORE INVITING EXERCISE, IF THEY DO NOT MAKE THE COUNTRY MORE INCLUSIVE, THEY WILL HAVE TO CONTEND WITH THE PEOPLE THEY'VE EXCLUDED OUTSIDE OF DEMOCRACY.

WE'VE HAD A CIVIL WAR TO ANSWER THIS QUESTION.

WE'VE HAD A CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT TO ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS.

PEOPLE WERE LYNCHED, TRYING TO GET A BETTER ANSWER OUT OF THIS QUESTION.

SUFFRAGISTS ABUSED AND BEATEN TRYING TO GET BETTER ANSWERS OUT OF THIS QUESTION.

BUT WHAT NEVER STOPS IS THE SORT OF SPIRIT OF -- OF PROGRESS.

THE SECOND PART OF THIS, WHAT SORT OF FOLLOWING FROM THE FIRST, WE'RE A NATION OF 340 MILLION PEOPLE, AND IF YOU THINK THAT DEMOCRACY IS ONLY FOR 70% OF THOSE 350 MILLION PEOPLE, YOU SQUANDER MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF TALENT AND CAPABILITIES OF YOUR POPULOUS.

COUNTRIES DO NOT THRIVE WHEN THEY SQUANDER THE THING THAT MAKES THEM SPECIAL, UNIQUE, WHICH IS TO SAY, THEIR PEOPLE.

SO, NOT ONLY WILL THOSE PEOPLE NOT STAND BY, BUT THOSE AT THE TOP THAT WANT A PROSPEROUS AMERICA OR WANT TO HOG THE BENEFITS OF THIS COUNTRY FOR THEMSELVES WILL FIND THERE'S LESS BENEFITS, LESS RESOURCES, LESS GOOD FEELINGS TO GO AROUND WHEN EXCLUSION IS YOUR POLITICS.

>> BUT WHAT ABOUT PEOPLE WHO JUST DON'T SEE IT THAT WAY?

AND SEEM TO BELIEVE, WHETHER THROUGH FORCE, THROUGH VIOLENCE, THROUGH THE BALLOT BOX, THROUGH DOMINATION, SOME KIND OF WAY, THAT THEY ARE -- THAT THEY'RE NARROWING OF THE AMERICAN STORY IS GOING TO CONTINUE TO PREVAIL.

WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THAT?

>> YEAH, SO, THE FIRST THING IS, ON JANUARY 7th, JANUARY 8th, JANUARY 9th, A LOT OF THE PEOPLE SAYING THAT 2020 WAS AN UNDECIDED ELECTION OR FRAUDULENT ELECTION, ON JANUARY 7th, 8th, AND 9th, THEY WERE SAYING, HOW DARE DONALD TRUMP THIS IS BEYOND THE PALE, THIS IS TOO FAR.

AND WHAT THEY LEARNED WAS, YOU DON'T GET RE-ELECTED.

YOU DON'T HAVE A CHANCE IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IF YOU HOLD DONALD TRUMP ACCOUNTABLE FOR JANUARY 6th.

AND SO, THEY CHANGED THE POSITIONS THEY HELD ON JANUARY 7th OUT OF POLITICAL EXPEDIENCE.

NOW, THIS IS -- THIS IS THE KIND OF CHARACTER THAT OUR POLITICAL SYSTEM INCENTIVIZES.

THAT'S A FAULT OF BOTH THE SYSTEM AND THOSE POLITICIANS, WHICH LEADS TO THE SECOND POINT, AND SORT OF THE -- ONE OF THE MAJOR ARGUMENTS IN THE BOOK, THIS IS WHY BLACK AMERICANS HAVE ALWAYS INSISTED ON A STRONG FEDERAL GOVERNMENT ENFORCEMENT OF CIVIL RIGHTS.

BECAUSE IF YOU LEAVE IT TO THE GOOD WILL OF OUR ELECTED OFFICIALS, YOU WILL BE DISAPPOINTED EVERY TIME.

WHEN THE FOLKS WHO FOUNDED THIS COUNTRY SAID, WE DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT A REPUBLIC OR THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE, BECAUSE THE PEOPLE THAT STAFF THEM ARE GOING TO BE PATRIOTS, WHO ARE GOING TO PUT JUSTICE AND EQUALITY FIRST AND NOT PUT THEIR PARTISAN AND FACTION LEANINGS FIRST.

AND THEY WERE WRONG.

THEY WERE WRONG THEN AND THEY'RE WRONG TODAY.

>> SO, LET'S TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE CURRENT SORT OF POLITICAL MOMENT.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT'S INTERESTING THAT WE SEE, AND WE'LL FIND OUT SOON ENOUGH WHETHER THIS SORT OF PATTERN HOLDS, BUT YOU DO SEE INCREASING NUMBERS OF AFRICAN AMERICAN MEN AND LATINO MEN SEEMING TO BE DRAWN TO THE REPUBLICAN PARTY AND TO DONALD TRUMP IN PARTICULAR.

WHY DO YOU THINK THAT IS?

>> YEAH, I -- I'VE GOT A FEW REASONS FOR THIS.

THE FIRST ONE IS, BETWEEN '68 AND 2004, REPUBLICANS AVERAGED 11% OR 12% OF THE BLACK VOTE IN PRESIDENTIAL ELECTIONS, AND THEN BARACK OBAMA CAME ALONG, AND IN 2008, REPUBLICANS GET 4%.

IN 2012, THEY GET 6%.

ABOUT THE SAME, 6%, 7%, IN 2016, AND THEN 8% IN 2020.

SO, IN BETWEEN 2008 AND 2020, IT'S GONE FROM 4% TO 8%.

SO, IT'S DOUBLED.

THAT MAKES IT SEEM LIKE, WOW, REPUBLICANS ARE MAKING INROADS WHEN ACTUALLY BARACK OBAMA HAS LEFT THE STAGE.

SO, THAT'S ONE REASON WHY WE'RE SEEING A LITTLE BIT OF AN INCREASE.

BLACK REPUBLICANS WHO DIFFERENT WANT TO VOTE AGAINST THE BLACK GUY HAVE SORT OF RETURNED BACK TO THEIR VOTING HABITS PRE-OBAMA.

HERE'S A WRINKLE THAT I THINK IS NEW, IT ISN'T THE SAME FOLKS RETURNING.

IT'S YOUNGER FOLKS COMING, AND I THINK IT'S MOSTLY YOUNGER BLACK MEN.

AND THE QUESTION IS WHY?

SOME OF THAT IS BECAUSE TRUMP PRESENTS AS VERY HYPERHAS YULIN.

NOT IN HIS SORT OF APPEARANCE OR HIS ENERGY OR VIGOR, BUT HE PRESENTS AS UNTOUCHABLE.

THE MAN HAS 34 FELONY CONVICTIONS, AND MAY BE PRESIDENT-ELECT IN A MONTH.

THERE'S SOMETHING VERY HAS YULIN ABOUT DOING WHATEVER YOU WANT AND HAVING NO COME UP PANS, PAYING NO PENALTY FOR IT.

IF YOU TAKE YOUNG BLACK MEN WHO HAVE BEEN TOLD, THE POLICE ARE OUT TO GET YOU, THAT DEMOCRACY IS UNFAIR, THE SYSTEM IS UNFAIR, THIS IDEA THAT YOU CAN DO WHAT IT TAKES TO GET FORWARD AND NOT BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE, OR NO ONE'S COMING TO GET YOU, CAN BE APPEALING.

IT'S HYPERMASCULINE AND UNTOUCHABLE.

WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO WATCH THIS.

I'M GEN X, THAT MEANS MY PARENTS WERE BORN DURING JIM CROW.

THAT MEANT IN MY GENERATION, YOUR GRANDPARENT WAS PROBABLY JIM CROW.

FOR GEN Z, IT'S A GENERATION REMOVED FROM THE SOUTH AND FROM THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT.

AND I BRING THIS UP, BECAUSE POLITICAL SCIENCE AROUND BLACK VOTING BEHAVIOR TALKS ABOUT THIS IDEA OF THAT, WE'RE ALL IN THIS TOGETHER, AND A LOT OF THAT STEMS FROM THIS SHARED COMMON EXPERIENCE THAT OUR GRANDPARENTS OR PARENTS HAD.

NOW THAT WE'RE REMOVED FROM THAT SHARED EXPERIENCE, THE IDEA THAT THAT SOLIDARITY WILL BE ENOUGH TO HOLD BLACK PEOPLE TOGETHER IN THE SAME PARTY AT A 89 90-10 CLIP IS OUTDATED.

>> THE OTHER THING THAT YOU HEAR IS SOME YOUNGER VOTERS JUST THINK THAT THE DEMOCRATS HAVEN'T DELIVERED.

AND THEY HAVEN'T DELIVERED ON, YOU KNOW, AT LEAST SORT OF TRUMP IN HIS IDIOSYNCRATIC, SORT OF INDIVIDUALISTIC WAY, HAS DELIVERED, OR, AT LEAST, HE LIKES TO TELL YOU THAT HE'S DELIVERED.

DOES THE FACT OF THE CHANGE AT THE TOP OF THE DEMOCRATIC TICKET HELP OR HURT IN ANY WAY?

DOES KAMALA HARRIS, AS THE NOMINEE, EVEN WITH THIS SHORTENED ELECTION PERIOD, DOES THAT CHANGE THAT DYNAMIC AT ALL?

>> YES.

100% IT CHANGED IT.

SO -- IF -- BLACK VOTERS SAYING, WHAT HAVE YOU DONE FOR ME LATELY, THEY'RE NOT ASKING THAT OF REPUBLICANS.

THE PROMISE OF WHAT THEY WANT TO DO AROUND THE ECONOMY OR IMMIGRATION OR WHATEVER SOUNDS GOOD TO ME, SO, I'M GO TO TAKE THEM AT THEIR WORD OVER THE EVIDENCE FROM, SAY, A BIDEN PRESIDENCY, OR AN OBAMA PRESIDENCY.

BUT NOW YOU'RE VOTING NOT FOR TRUMP AGAINST BIDEN, BUT FOR TRUMP AGAINST AN AKA FROM HOWARD IN KAMALA HARRIS.

AND, AGAIN, EVEN WITH THE SORT OF SHIFTING -- SMALL REALIGNMENT HAPPENING IN BLACK AMERICA, YOU ARE STILL BLACK IN AMERICA.

AND IF YOU DECIDE TO VOTE AGAINST THE CANDIDATE, A BLACK CANDIDATE AT THE TOP OF THE TICKET, THAT PROBABLY 88% TO 90% OF BLACK FOLKS ARE GOING TO VOTE FOR, YOU'RE NOT JUST MAKING A POLITICAL DECISION, YOU'RE ALSO MAKING A SOCIAL AND CULTURAL KIND OF CHOICE.

AND THERE'S GREAT WORK OUT THERE, MY POLITICAL SCIENTISTS THAT SHOWS THERE'S A KIND OF SOCIAL CONSTRAINT THAT HAPPENS WHEN BLACK PEOPLE ARE RUNNING FOR OFFICE AMONG BLACK VOTERS.

AND YOU DON'T WANT TO BE THE DUDE THAT WALKS INTO THE BARBERSHOP TO SAY, I VOTED AGAINST KAMALA HARRIS FOR THIS DUDE WHO THINKS HAITIANS IN OHIO ARE EATING CATS AND DOGS.

>> IS PART OF THE ISSUE HERE THOUGH FOR BLACK PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN CONTINUALLY DISAPPOINTED BY THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY, IS THAT THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY ISN'T PERCEIVED AS CONTINUING TO FIGHT THOSE FIGHTS?

OF VOTING RIGHTS, FOR EXAMPLE?

I JUST WONDER IF YOU THINK THAT'S PART OF THE CALCULUS.

>> MY SENSE IS A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT.

THE LATEST NUMBERS I'VE SEEN IS ABOUT 1 IN 5 BLACK VOTES IDENTIFY AS CONSERVATIVE, ABOUT 40%, 45% IDENTIFY AS MODERATE, AND THEN 1 OUT OF 4 IDENTIFY AS LIBERAL.

AND I THINK FOR A NUMBER OF BLACK VOTERS, AND WE SAW THIS IN THE DEMOCRATIC PRIMARY IN 2020, THEY THINK THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY HAS GONE TOO FAR LEFT.

AND MAYBE ADDRESSING CONCERNS BEYOND RACE AND FEELING LIKE THEY'VE BEEN LEFT BEHIND, DESPITE THE FACT THAT THEY'RE THE PARTY'S MOST LOYAL BASE.

AND SO, IF WE LOOK AT THE PRIMARIES IN 2020, BIDEN LOSES IN IOWA, IN NEW HAMPSHIRE, BADLY LOSES.

IN NEVADA.

AND THEN SHOWS UP IN SOUTH CAROLINA, OLDER BLACK VOTERS, A LITTLE BIT MORE CONSECONSERVATIVE, AND WINS, AND THEY RESCUE HIS CAMPAIGN.

SAME THING BLACK VOTERS DID FOR BILL CLINTON IN '92.

IF THOSE ARE THE FOLKS THAT ARE PUTTING THESE DEMOCRATS INTO THE WHITE HOUSE, IF THEY THINK THAT THAT PRESIDENT IS SUDDENLY GOING TO LURCH FAR LEFT AND ACCOMPLISH A NUMBER OF VERY, VERY PROGRESSIVE IDEAS THAT THEY DIDN'T SIGN UP FOR IN THE PRIMARY, WHICH IS WHY THEY VOTED FOR THE MODERATE, OR EVEN THE ESTABLISHMENT CANDIDATE, THE PARTY HAS MISREAD BLACK VOTERS.

AND I THINK MAYBE PARTICULARLY IN THE RHETORIC MORE THAN IN THEIR POLICY PROPOSALS, THAT HAS HAPPENED.

SO, I THINK YOU'RE SEEING MORE OF A -- A MORE PRAGMATIC BLACK ELECTORATE REJECTING THE LEFTWARD LURCH OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY IN SOME CIRCLES, AND THE RIGHTWARD LURCH OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, AND ARE KIND OF LEFT TO SORT OF MAKE SENSE OF POLITICS, GIVEN THESE TWO REALITIES.

>> SO, BEFORE WE LET YOU GO, I AM WONDERING OF WHO YOU WANT TO DISCOVER THIS BOOK?

WHO DO YOU WANT TO READ IT, AND WHO DO YOU WANT TO TAKE IT TO HEART?

>> SO, THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION.

THIS IS, V AS MUCH FOR BLACK PEOPLE TO SORT OF, TO SAY, THIS IS THE CONVERSATION WE'VE HAD IN A MILLION PLACES, LET'S GET IT ON PAPER AND SORT OF REFLECT ON WHAT IT MEANS IN THIS MOMENT, AS IT IS FOR WHITE AUDIENCES WHO ONLY HEAR ABOUT RACE ON CABLE NEWS OR IN THEIR ECHO CHAMBERS OR IN THEIR SORT OF PREFERRED SOCIAL MEDIA, YOU KNOW, CURATED FEEDS ON, YOU KNOW, ON THESE DIFFERENT PLATFORMS.

THEY SHOULD READ THIS BOOK.

BECAUSE THIS IS HOW YOU UNDERSTAND RACISM IN AMERICA.

THIS IS HOW YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT BLACK PEOPLE SAY WHEN THEY SAY THE POLICE ARE RACIST, OR THAT STRUCTURAL RACISM IS THE REASON WHY THERE'S SUCH DISPARITY IN THE COUNTRY AND SEE IT PRESENTED IN A WAY THAT DOESN'T DEMONIZE THE COUNTRY AND DOESN'T MAKE BLACK PEOPLE VICTIMS IN THE NATION'S STORY ALONE.

>> TED JOHNSON, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US ONCE AGAIN.

>> THANK YOU.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>>> AND THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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THANK YOU FOR WATCHING, AND GOOD-BYE FROM LONDON.

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