October 15, 2019

> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO 'AMANPOUR AND COMPANY.'

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

WE'VE ENDOWED A PRESIDENT, ESPECIALLY IN THE FOREIGN AFFAIRS AREA, HE'S MOST UNCHECKED THERE.

THAT'S WHERE HE HAS MOST FREE REIN.

HE LED THE OFFICE OF LEGAL COUNSEL UNDER PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH.

JACK GOLDSMITH TALKS TO ME ABOUT EXECUTIVE OVERREACH, THEN AND NOW.

AND ABOUT LIVING IN THE SHADOW OF JIMMY HOFFA.

> MY MOTIVE WAS TO STOP A WAR AND SAVE LIVES.

IN THE UK, WHISTLE-BLOWER KATHERINE GUNN'S STORY.

SHE JOINS ME.

THE PRICE SHE PAID FOR RAISING THE ALARM ABOUT THE IRAQ WAR.

♪ TAKE A LOAD OFF ANNIE TAKE A LOAD FOR FREE ♪

> MUSICIAN ROBBY ROBERTSON ABOUT SHAPING THE BAND, SCORING FOR SCORSESE, ASK TAKING BOB DYLAN ELECTRIC.

> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

AS HE FLEXES EXECUTIVE POWER TO THE LIMIT, PRESIDENT TRUMP IS FACING MASSIVE BIPARTISAN PUSHBACK AFTER HIS UNILATERAL DECISION TO ABANDON ALLIES, THE SYRIAN KURDS, TO THE TURKISH MILITARY.

AND ON THE UKRAINE CRISIS, HIS OWN FORMER NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER, JOHN BOLTON, AS WELL AS HIS FORMER RUSSIA ADVISER, ARE SAYING THEY OBJECT TO HIS ACTIONS.

WELL, MY FIRST GUEST TONIGHT HAS PERSONAL EXPERIENCE CHALLENGING THE WHITE HOUSE FROM WITHIN.

JACK GOLDSMITH HEADED THE OFFICE OF LEGAL COUNSEL UNDER PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH WHERE HE SPOKE UP ON ISSUES LIKE EXCESSIVE WIRETAPPING AND SO-CALLED TORTURE MEMOS.

NOW IN A NEW BOOK GOLDSMITH IS LOOKING BACK TO THE EVENTS HIS CHILDHOOD THAT LED HIM TO A CAREER IN LAW AND JUSTICE.

HIS STEPFATHER, CHUCKY O'BRIEN, BECAME A PRIME SUSPECT IN THE DISAPPEARANCE OF JIMMY HOFF MAY.

THE POWERFUL LEADER OF THE TEAMSTERS LABOR UNION WHO VANISHED WITHOUT A TRACE IN 1975.

THAT MYSTERY IS ALSO THE TOPIC OF MARTIN SCORSESE'S NEW AND HIGHLY ACCLAIMED EPIC 'THE IRISHMAN.'

GOLD SMITH'S BOOK IS CALLED 'IN H HOFFA'S SHADOW' AND HE JOINED ME TO TALK ABOUT THAT AND HIS EXPERIENCE REINING IN PRESIDENTIAL POWER.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

YOU HAVE A BOOK OUT AND A LIFE EXPERIENCE THAT SEEMS TO REALLY HIT AT THE HEART OF MAJOR ISSUES HAPPENING IN THE UNITED STATES AND THE WORLD RIGHT NOW.

GIVEN ALL THAT'S HAPPENING WITH THE PRESIDENTIAL ACTIONS REGARDING UKRAINE AND REGARDING ALSO THE WAR IN SYRIA AND THE GREEN LIGHT TO TURKEY, LET'S JUST GO BACK TO YOUR EXPERIENCE IN THE WHITE HOUSE, THE DOJ'S OFFICE OF LEGAL COUNSEL.

TALK TO ME ABOUT EXECUTIVE POWER, THE LIMITS OF EXECUTIVE POWER, HOW YOU IN THE END BECAME ALARMED AT WHAT THE EXECUTIVE, AT THAT TIME PRESIDENT GEORGE W.

BUSH, WAS DOING WITH HIS POWER.

SURE.

AS WE SEE WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP LIKE WE HAVEN'T SEEN MAYBE EVER IN THIS COUNTRY, THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES IS ENDOWED WITH JUST EXTRAORDINARY POWER, EXTRAORDINARY DISCRETION TO GUIDE THE FATE OF THE COUNTRY.

AND THE PRESIDENT HAS BUILT UP THIS POWER OVER 200 YEARS, BASICALLY, EITHER THROUGH COLLECTING IT ON HIS OWN OR THROUGH CONGRESS GIVING IT TO HIM.

WHEN I WAS IN THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT IN 2003-2004, I WAS THE HEAD OF THE OFFICE OF LEGAL COUNSEL.

AND THERE ARE, DESPITE THE PRESIDENT'S POWER, THERE ARE LEGAL CONSTRAINTS ON THE PRESIDENCY.

AND WE WERE CHARGED WITH ENSURING THAT THOSE CONSTRAINTS WERE ENFORCED, AND I DID MY BEST TO DO THAT.

AND IT WAS QUITE DIFFICULT.

I MEAN, THERE WERE VERY, VERY POWERFUL PEOPLE IN THE WHITE HOUSE AT THAT TIME, FROM PRESIDENT BUSH TO VICE PRESIDENT CHENEY TO SECRETARY OF DEFENSE DONALD RUMSFELD, AND ALL THEIR SECOND IN COMMANDS AS WELL.

IT WAS A VERY POWERFUL GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO TENDED TO BELIEVE IN THE SAME THING, WHETHER IT WAS THE POST-9/11 HOW ARE YOU GOING TO TREAT TERRORISTS OR TERRORIST SUSPECTS UNDER THE GENEVA CONVENTIONS, WHAT ABOUT THE TORTURE MEMO WHICH WAS SO FUNDAMENTAL TO YOUR EXPERIENCE, THE WARRANTLESS WIRETAPPING.

DESCRIBE WHAT YOU'VE ALREADY WRITTEN ABOUT IN ONE OF YOUR BOOKS WHEN YOU WENT INTO THE WHITE HOUSE AND YOU ANSWERED A QUESTION THAT THEY HAD, DO THE GENEVA CONVENTIONS APPLY EVEN TO TERRORIST SUSPECTS?

WHAT HAPPENED?

WHAT DID YOU SAY WHAT DID THEY RESPOND?

THAT WAS IN THE FIRST WEEK OF MY TIME AT THE OFFICE OF LEGAL COUNSEL IN OCTOBER OF 2003.

THE ASSUMPTION HAD BEEN THAT THEY DID NOT APPLY TO TERRORISTS IN IRAQ, AND I TOLD THEM THAT OUR ANALYSIS SUGGESTED THAT IT DID, AT LEAST FOR ALMOST ALL OF THE TERRORISTS.

AND THEY WERE FLABBERGASTED.

THEY COULDN'T BELIEVE IT.

I THINK THEY EXPECTED A DIFFERENT ANSWER.

WELL, IN FACT, YOU WRITE THAT THE LAWYER, DAVIDED AING TON, DICK CHENEY'S LAWYER WAS ENRAGED, LIVID, AND HE SAID YOU CANNOT QUESTION HIS DECISION, REFERRING TO PRESIDENT BUSH.

THAT'S PRETTY EXTRAORDINARY.

I GUESS THEY WOULD SAY THAT, WOULDN'T THEY.

BUT REFLECT ON HOW THAT IMPACTED THE WAR AND ALSO HOW YOU SEE ANY CONNECTION TO TODAY'S WHITE HOUSE AND THE PRESIDENT WANTING MAXIMUM AUTHORITY UNDER HIS EXECUTIVE POWER.

WELL, TO GO BACK TO THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION, THEY HAD A BROAD VIEW OF EXECUTIVE POWER.

THEY WERE FACED WITH WHAT THEY THOUGHT WAS A REAL SERIOUS THREAT TO THE NATION'S SECURITY.

AND EARLY ON THEY DID EVERYTHING THEY COULD TO BE AS AGGRESSIVE AS POSSIBLE TO MEET THAT THREAT AFTER 9/11.

AND IN MY JUDGMENT THEY OVERSTEPPED IN SOME RESPECTS.

AND WHEN I WAS THERE FOR ABOUT A YEAR I WAS BASICALLY CHARGED WITH OR IT FELL IN MY LAP TO TRY TO PUT EVERYTHING THEY WERE DOING ON A SOUNDER LEGAL FOUNDATION.

I THINK THOSE EXCESSES ENDED UP HURTING THE CAUSE.

CERTAINLY THE INTERROGATION STUFF DID.

THEY GOT CAUGHT UP IN SCANDAL OVER THE WARRANTLESS WIRETAPPING PROGRAM AND THE LIKE.

ALL PRESIDENCIES -- THIS WAS TRUE OF BARACK OBAMA'S PRESIDENCY, IT'S TRUE OF DONALD TRUMP'S PRESIDENCY -- IN DIFFERENT WAYS SEEK TO EXERCISE MAXIMUM EXECUTIVE POWER.

PRESIDENTS HAVE ENORMOUS RESPONSIBILITIES AND THEY TRY TO EXERCISE AS MUCH POWER AS THEY CAN TO ENSURE THEY CAN MEET THOSE RESPONSIBILITIES.

OFTEN THEY GO TOO FAR.

THIS ADMINISTRATION, PRESIDENT TRUMP'S ADMINISTRATION, IS -- THE MAIN DIFFERENCE THAT IS PRESIDENT TRUMP, UNLIKE PRIOR PRESIDENTS, JUST DOESN'T HAVE ANY CONCEPTION OF THE OFFICE, THE NORMS THAT SURROUND THE OFFICE, THE LEGAL CONSTRAINTS ON THE OFFICE.

EVEN THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION HAD, WHEN THEY WERE PUSHING THE ENVELOPE, HAD A VERY DEVELOPED AND PRINCIPLED VOO OF EXECUTIVE PO POWER, EVEN IF I DISAGREED WITH IT.

I DON'T THINK THIS PRESIDENT DOES.

LET ME THEN ASK YOU, YOU RESIGNED IN THE END OVER THE TORTURE MEMOS AND THE ASPECT OF WHAT WAS GOING ON THERE.

YOU TOLD 'THE NEW YORK TIMES' BECAUSE OF WHAT HAPPENED IN PRESIDENT BUSH'S ADMINISTRATION YOU DON'T THINK QUOTE ANY PRESIDENT IN THE NEAR FUTURE WOULD BE ABLE TO HAVE THE SAME VIEW TOWARDS EXECUTIVE AUTHORITY AS PRESIDENT BUSH DID, BECAUSE THE OTHER INSTITUTIONS OF GOVERNMENT WON'T ALLOW IT.

YOU KIND OF -- I MEAN, THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN NICE, RIGHT?

BUT IT DIDN'T WORK OUT THAT WAY.

I WOULDN'T QUITE SAY THAT.

LET ME DRAW A DISTINCTION, PLEASE.

THE TRUMPS TRIED TO GET AWAY WITH A WHOLE BUNCH OF THINGS.

AND HE IS CERTAINLY INDIFFERENT TO THE LAW, INDIFFERENT TO NORMS.

BUT HE HASN'T -- THE COURT HAS STOOD UP TO HIM ON A LOT OF MATTERS.

HIS OWN JUSTICE DEPARTMENT HAS STOOD UP TO HIM ON A LOT OF MATTERS EXTRAORDINARILY, INCLUDING HIS POLITICAL OPPONENTS.

THE FACT THAT THE MUELLER INVESTIGATION WAS ALLOWED TO REACH ITS END WITHOUT MUELLER BEING FIRED.

THE MUELLER REPORT WAS ALLOWED TO COME OUT IN AN ALMOST UNREDACTED FORM.

I THINK THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN WHAT TRUMP WANTS TO ACCOMPLISH AND WHAT HE'S ABLE TO ACCOMPLISH.

LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT A DOMESTIC ISSUE, UKRAINE.

AS YOU KNOW, IT'S RESULTING IN IMPEACHMENT INQUIRY BY THE HOUSE.

RIGHT.

THE WHITE HOUSE HAS SAID THAT IT REFUSES TO COOPERATE.

LET ME JUST READ YOU THE WHITE HOUSE COUNSEL'S LETTER TO SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE PELOSI.

PRESIDENT TRUMP AND HIS ADMINISTRATION CANNOT PARTICIPATE IN YOUR PARTISAN AND UNCONSTITUTIONAL INQUIRY UNDER THESE CIRCUMSTANCES.

PUT SIMPLY, SEEK TO OVERTURN THE RESULTS OF THE 2016 ELECTION AND DEPRIVE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE OF THE PRESIDENT THEY HAVE FREELY CHOSEN.

AS A FORMER JUSTICE DEPARTMENT LAWYER, OLC, WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT?

I FOUND THE LEGAL ARGUMENT IN THE LETTER TO BE COMPLETELY GROUNDLESS.

THE IDEA THAT THE HOUSE IS SOMEHOW PROCEEDING IN AN UNCONSTITUTIONAL WAY, I FOUND THOSE ARGUMENTS COMPLETELY MERITLESS.

THERE ARE POLITICS ON BOTH SIDES OF THIS, AND THAT LETTER, EVEN THOUGH IT WAS FROM THE WHITE HOUSE COUNSEL, EVEN THOUGH IT WAS COUCHED IN LEGAL LANGUAGE, WAS A POLITICAL SHOT OVER THE BOW.

THAT WAS DESIGNED FOR PUBLIC CONSUMPTION, FOR THE PRESIDENT'S BASE.

AND THEY HAD CONCLUDED, FOR WHATEVER REASON, THAT THAT WAS A SHREWD POLITICAL MOVE.

BUT I DON'T THINK IT'S A FAIR CHARACTERIZATION OF WHAT'S GOING ON IN THE HOUSE AT ALL.

LET'S MOVE ON, JACK GOLDSMITH.

WHO, FOR THOSE WHO DON'T KNOW, WAS JIMMY HOFF MAY?

JIMMY HOFFA WAS A LARGER THAN LIFE FIGURE IN THE 1950s AND '60s.

HE WAS THE MOST PROMINENT LABOR UNION LEADER AT A TIME, UNLIKE TODAY, WHEN UNIONS REALLY MATTERED.

HE LED THE MOST POWERFUL UNION IN THE COUNTRY, THE TEAMSTERS UNION.

AND HE WAS ALSO NOTORIOUSLY CORRUPT.

HE HAD CLOSE RELATIONSHIPS WITH ORGANIZED CRIME.

HE HAD ALL SORTS OF SIDE DEALS WITH EMPLOYERS AND WITH HIS LOANS.

BUT HE BROUGHT HOME THE BACON TO THE WORKERS.

HE WAS HUGELY POPULAR WITH THE 1 MILLION PLUS TEAMSTERS UNION MEMBERS AND HE WIELDED ENORMOUS POWER.

OBVIOUSLY THE UNIONS ARE IN THE SPOTLIGHT AGAIN TODAY WITH THE GM STRIKE, AND THE STORY OF JIMMY HOFF MAY IS REALLY IN THE SPOTLIGHT IN A WAY THAT MAY BE ACCESSIBLE TO MANY MORE PEOPLE TODAY WITH THE FILM 'THE IRISHMAN.'

BACK THEN THERE WAS NOBODY IN THIS COUNTRY WHO DIDN'T KNOW WHO JIMMY HOFFA WAS.

THE JIMMY HOFFA CHARACTER IS PLAYED BY AL PACINO, AND IT'S A REMARKABLE FILM.

HAVE YOU SEEN THE FILM, BY THE WAY?

I HAVE NOT SEEN THE FILM YET, NO.

ALL RIGHT.

AS YOU KNOW, OF COURSE, THE MYSTERY, THE ETERNAL MYSTERY ABOUT JIMMY HOFFA, WHAT HAPPENED TO HIM?

IT'S ASSUMED HE WAS KIDNAPPED AND KILLED BUT HIS BODY HAS NEVER BEEN FOUND.

US RIGHT-HAND MAN WAS NORTHERN OTHER THAN A GENTLEMAN BY THE NAME OF CHUCKY O'BRIEN, YOUR STEPFATHER.

CULTURE AND HISTORY UP TO NOW HAS BLAMED HIM, SAID PERHAPS HE DROVE HOFFA TO HIS DEATH.

TELL ME ABOUT WHAT'S IN THE PUBLIC EYE AND WHAT YOU SOUGHT TO FIND OUT AS YOU WROTE THE BOOK.-

SURE.

THE CONVENTIONAL WISDOM SINCE 1975, SINCE THE WEEK AFTER THE DISAPPEARANCE, WAS THAT MY STEPFATHER, CHUCKY O'BRIEN, PICKED UP HOFFA AND DROVE HIM TO HIS DEATH.

AND THIS WAS A THEORY THAT THE FBI PUT OUT IN 1975.

THERE WAS SOME LEAKED DOCUMENTS AT THE TIME.

AND THAT NARRATIVE FROM 1975 THAT CHUCKY WAS INVOLVED HAS PERSISTED IN THE PUBLIC MIND TO THIS DAY.

I THINK IT'S THE THEORY OF THE MOVIE THAT'S ABOUT TO COME OUT, AT LEAST THE BOOK IT'S BASED ON.

ONE OF THE THINGS I SET OUT TO DO IN THIS BOOK WAS TO SEE IF IN FACT HE WAS GUILTY OF WHAT HE WAS ACCUSED OF.

I SUSPECTED FOR A WHOLE BUNCH OF REASONS THAT HE WASN'T.

FOR SEVEN YEARS I PORED OVER EVERY DOCUMENT I COULD FIND, INCLUDING A LOT THAT HAVE NEVER BEEN LOOKED AT IN THE PUBLIC REALM.

I SPOKE TO EVERY AGENT INVOLVED IN THE CASE.

LONG STORY SHORT, I CAME TO I THINK A VERY PERSUASIVE COLON CONCLUSION THAT HE WAS NOT INVOLVED IN THE DISAPPEARANCE, THAT IT WAS -- AND MOREOVER, THAT THE FBI HAS KNOWN THIS FOR 20 YEARS.

THEY CAME VERY CLOSE TO EXONERATING HIM ABOUT FIVE YEARS AGO, THEN THEY GOT COLD FEET.

BUT THE STORY THE FBI PUT OUT 45 YEARS AGO ABOUT THE HOFFA INVESTIGATION AND THE ONE THAT STILL FILLS CONVENTIONAL WISDOM HAS NO BASIS TO IT.

HOW DID CHUCKY O'BRIEN COME INTO YOUR LIFE?

YOU SPEAK ABOUT HIM, YOU OPEN THE BOOK BY I THINK SAYING, HE WAS MY THIRD FATHER AND THE BEST.

YES.

SO MY BIRTH FATHER WAS NEGLECTFUL, TO PUT IT KINDLY, AND WAS NEVER AROUND, LEFT PERMANENTLY WHEN I WAS 7.

THEN I HAD A STEPFATHER WHO WASN'T A VERY GOOD STEPFATHER.

WHEN I WAS 12 YEARS OLD, SUDDENLY FROM NOWHERE MY MOM MET CHUCKY AND THEY GOT MARRIED IN JUNE OF 1975.

AND IT TURNED OUT THAT HE WAS JIMMY HOFFA'S LONG-TIME RIGHT-HAND MAN, TEAMSTERS UNION OFFICIAL.

TURNED OUT HE HAD MANY CLOSE CONNECTIONS WITH ORGANIZED CRIME.

BUT IN ADDITION TO ALL OF THAT, HE WAS JUST AN EXTRAORDINARY FATHER.

HE WAS JUST -- GAVE ME LOVE AND ATTENTION AND AFFECTION AND DID EVERYTHING HE COULD FOR ME AND EVERYTHING HE COULD WITH ME.

AND DURING MY TEENAGE YEARS I REALLY IDOLIZED HIM.

HE WAS A GREAT FATHER.

AT THE SAME TIME THAT HE WAS THE LEADING SUSPECT IN A THE HOFFA DISAPPEARANCE AND THE CIRCUS SURROUNDING THAT.

NOT ONLY THAT YOU WRITE SOME PRETTY HAIR-RAISING AND TOE-CURLING EXPERIENCES THAT CHUCKY, THE AMIABLY NAMED CHUCKY, DID FOR JIMMY HOFFA.

LIKE HOW DID HE ONCE INTIMIDATE THE EDITOR OF THE DETROIT NEWSPAPER?

SO HOFFA IN THE EARLY '60s WAS FURIOUS THAT MARTIN HAYDEN, WHO WAS THE EDITOR OF THE DETROIT NEWS, WAS KILLING HIM IN THE PRESS.

ASKED CHUCKY TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT TO STOP HIM.

CHUCKY DIDN'T ALWAYS HAVE THE BEST IDEAS.

I DON'T KNOW IF WHEN WAS A GOOD IDEA OR NOT.

HE WENT TO THE MORGUE AT WAYNE STATE AND PURCHASED A CADAVER, OR PURCHASED THE HEAD OF A CADAVER.

HE PUT IT IN A BOX.

WRAPPED IT UP AS A CHRISTMAS PRESENT AND SENT IT TO MARTIN HAYDEN.

I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE CONSEQUENCES WERE, BUT I KNOW THAT STORY, THAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED.

YOU KNOW, I MEAN -- IT'S SO EXTRAORDINARY.

TO THINK HE WAS YOUR STEPFATHER.

DO $YOU TALK ABOUT IT TO HIM, ABOUT THE HEAD IN THE BOX?

OF COURSE I DID, THAT'S WHERE I LEARNED ABOUT THE STORY, I WAS LATER ABLE TO CONFIRM IT AFTER A LOT OF WORK.

HE TOLD ME ABOUT THAT AND A LOT OF OTHER THINGS THAT HE DID.

SOME VIOLENT, SOME ILLEGAL.

HE WAS PRETTY CANDID WITH ME ABOUT HIS LIFE.

LET'S TALK ABOUT THE INTERFACE, IF I CAN PUT IT THAT WAY, BETWEEN JIMMY HOFFA AND CHUCKY O'BRIEN, YOUR STEPFATHER, AND THE MOB.

HE WAS NO FAN OF THE MAUVE YEAH YOU SAY ABOUT HOFFA, BUT HE WORKED WITH THEM.

AND HE WAS NOT SHY OF CRIMINALITY.

THIS IS HOFFA SPEAKING TO A REPORTER IN 1959.

HE SAID, 20 YEARS AGO THE EMPLOYERS HAD ALL THE HOODLUMS WORKING FOR THEM AS STRIKE BREAKERS.

NOW WE'VE GOT A FEW AND EVERYBODY'S SCREAMING.

HOW -- WAS THAT HIM TRYING TO LET HIMSELF OFF THE HOOK?

WHAT WAS HIS REAL RELATIONSHIP WITH THE MOB?

IT WAS NOT HIM TRYING TO LET HIMSELF OFF THE HOOK, THAT WAS HIS TRUE BELIEF.

HOFFA WAS A LOT OF THINGS BUT HE WASN'T A HYPOCRITE.

HE'S BASICALLY ADMITTING THERE HE HAS RELATIONS WITH ORGANIZED CRIME IN 1959, AND HE'S REALLY EXPLAINING WHY HE DIDN'T THINK IT WAS BIG DEAL, BECAUSE IT'S TRUE IN THE '30s WHEN THE TEAMSTERS WERE IN VIOLENT CONFRONTATIONS WITH MANAGEMENT AND THE STATE, THE EMPLOYERS DID HIRE ORGANIZED CRIME OFFICIALS TO FIGHT WITH THEM.

AND THAT'S WHERE HOFF THAT KIND OF LEARNED HIS LESSONS ABOUT WHAT IT TOOK TO CONFRONT THE GOVERNMENT WITH UNION POWER.

SO HE WASN'T -- HE WAS BEING VERY CANDID ABOUT HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH ORGANIZED CRIME, AND HE WAS ALWAYS -- HE NEVER HID IT, REALLY.

HE SAID IT WAS EXAGGERATED BUT HE NEVER HID IT.

HOFFA HAD EXTREMELY DENSE RELATIONS WITH ORGANIZED CRIME FIGURES, ESPECIALLY THROUGH THE LOANS THAT HE GAVE FROM THE TEAMSTERS PENSION FUND.

BUT THEY WERE ALWAYS AT ARM'S LENGTH.

HOFFA NEVER REALLY HUNG OUT WITH MOBSTERS.

HE DIDN'T UNDERSTAND THEM, HE DIDN'T UNDERSTAND THEIR RITUALS.

FOR HIM THE MOB WAS JUST ANOTHER WAY OF GETTING POWER.

JUST LIKE WHEN HE PAID OFF POLITICIANS OR JUDGES.

AND HE WOULD DO ANYTHING HE COULD TO ENHANCE HIS POWER, TO ENHANCE THE UNION'S POWER.

HE SAW HIS TRANSACTIONS WITH THE MOB AS JUST ANOTHER SET OF TRANSACTIONS TO ENHANCE HIS POWER.

I WANT TO ASK YOU SORT OF A REALLY DIFFICULT PART OF YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH CHUCKY.

AT ONE POINT AFTER YOU'D GONE TO COLLEGE AND YOU WERE WANTING TO MAYBE BE A LAWYER, YOU WERE GETTING MORE AND MORE CONSERVATIVE, I MEAN, YOU ARE A CONSERVATIVE.

YOU KIND OF DECIDED ONCE YOU HEARD MORE ABOUT HIS STORY AND ABOUT HOFFA THAT YOU'RE GOING TO BREAK UP WITH YOUR STEPFATHER.

YOU CHANGE YOUR NAME BACK FROM O'BRIEN.

YOU'D TAKEN HIS.

TO GOLDSMITH.

YOU WROTE HIM A LETTER YOU THOUGHT WAS LOVING AND KIND, GETS YOU OFF THE HOOK WHILE YOU TAKE BACK YOUR BIRTH FATHER'S NAME.

AND HE WROTE BACK TO YOU.

CAN YOU READ A LITTLE OF THAT EXTRACT OF HIS LETTER TO YOU?

SURE.

TO THINK THAT YOU DO NOT WANT THE O'BRIEN NAME, FOR WHATEVER REASON, HURTS.

MAKES ME SAD.

EVEN MAKES ME ANGRY AT TIMES.

BUT I STILL LOVE YOU.

I CANNOT SAY THAT THE NAME CHANGE WILL NOT AFFECT OUR RELATIONSHIP.

IT CANNOT HELP BUT AFFECT THE RELATIONSHIP.

THAT HURT WILL NOT GO AWAY EASILY.

THE PAIN WILL BE THERE EACH TIME I SEE OR HEAR 'JACK GOLDSMITH.'

IT WILL BE EVER PRESENT.

I CAN HANDLE IT.

I'VE HAD TO HANDLE MANY, MANY UNPLEASANT THINGS IN MY LIFE.

I'VE ENDURED HEARTACHE AND SORROW.

AND ALTHOUGH IT WON'T BE EASY, I CAN HANDLE THIS ONE MORE BURDEN, SO TO SPEAK.

IT'S REALLY -- YOU CAN FEEL THE PAIN.

AND YOU ACTUALLY DID NOT SEE -- YOU REALLY BROKE UP FOR HIM FOR MORE THAN TWO DECADES.

AND IT TOOK YOU A LONG TIME TO GO BACK AND MAKE UP WITH HIM AND ASK HIS FORGIVENESS.

HOW DID HE TAKE THAT?

AND HOW DO YOU FEEL NOW WHEN YOU THINK OF THE PAIN THAT BREAKUP CAUSED HIM?

SO WHEN I WAS 20 YEARS OLD I WAS THINKING ABOUT MYSELF AND MY CAREER.

AND I WASN'T THINKING ABOUT HIM.

AND HIS LETTER DIDN'T MOVE ME.

AS I GOT OLDER AND WISER AND HAD MORE EXPERIENCE AND REALLY GREW EMPATHETIC WITH HIM BECAUSE OF THE SOME OF THE THINGS THAT I WAS ACCUSED OF AND GREW EMPATHETIC WITH HIM, I CAME TO SEE THAT PERHAPS I WASN'T SO VIRTUOUS AS I THOUGHT 20 YEARS EARLIER, AND HE WASN'T SO BAD.

I ALSO HAD MY OWN CHILDREN.

IT WAS REALLY WHEN I HAD MY OWN CHILDREN THAT I UNDERSTOOD HOW MY BREAK WITH HIM, HOW MUCH PAIN IT CAUSED.

AND THROUGH A LONG PROCESS OF FIGURING ALL THAT OUT, ONE EVENING I DECIDED THAT I WAS GOING TO TRY TO SEEK HIS FORGIVENESS.

WE WERE WATCHING 'SEINFELD' ONE EVENING.

AND I JUST TURNED TO HIM AND I SAID, 'I'M SO SORRY FOR WHAT I DID FOR THE LAST 20 YEARS, IT WAS WRONG, AND I LOVE YOU, AND I HOPE YOU'LL FORGIVE ME.'

AND IT WAS COMPLETELY OUT OF THE BLUE.

AND HE LOOKED AT ME WITH A POUS ZELLED EXPRESSION AND HIS FACE WAS ASHEN BECAUSE HE WASN'T WELL.

AND HE STARTED CRYING.

AND HE SAID -- HE BASICALLY FORGAVE ME.

HE GOES, 'I FORGIVE YOU, SON, I'M NOT MAD AT YOU, I KNOW WHY YOU DID WHAT YOU DID.'

AND BASICALLY THAT WAS IT.

AND FROM THAT POINT ON WE GREW OVER THE NEXT 15 YEARS, BASICALLY, VERY, VERY CLOSE.

AND DOES HE HAVE ANY IDEA WHERE HOFFA MIGHT BE?

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THE WHISTLE-BLOWERS WHO REMAIN ANONYMOUS, THE ONES OVER UKRAINE AND THE UNITED STATES, BUT JUST GOING FORWARD, YOU KNOW THEY'VE BEEN DENIGRATED BY THE PRESIDENT AND THE ADMINISTRATION.

IT IS TOUGH TO BE A WHISTLE-BLOWER IN GOVERNMENT.

AND BECAUSE -- IT'S TOUGH TO BE A WHISTLE-BLOWER IN GOVERNMENT TODAY.

BECAUSE EVERY SINGLE THING BECOMES IMMEDIATELY POLITICIZED.

THE PERSON, WHOEVER IT WAS, WHO BRAVELY TRIED TO FOLLOW THE PROCEDURES OF THE WHISTLE-BLOWER STATUTE ALMOST CERTAINLY DOESN'T DESERVE THE HELL THAT HE OR SHE IS GETTING FROM THE WHITE HOUSE.

AND IT SEEMS LIKE IT SPARKED MORE TO COME FORWARD.

WE'LL SEE WHAT THE CONSEQUENCES ARE.

JACK GOLDSMITH, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

> SO AS WE SAID, WHISTLE-BLOWERS ARE AT THE HEART OF THE TRUMP IMPEACHMENT PROBE.

WHAT MAKES SOMEONE RISK EVERYTHING TO EXPOSE GOVERNMENT WRONGDOING?

OUR NEXT GUEST KNOWS THAT ONLY TOO WELL.

THE IRAQ WAR WHISTLE-BLOWER, KATHERINE GUNN, WARNED THE UK GOVERNMENT INTELLIGENCE AGENCY, GCHQ, RAISED THE ALARM WHEN SHE LEARNED THE U.S. NATIONAL SECURITY AGENCY WAS TRYING TO FIND DIRT ON CERTAIN U.N.

MEMBERS IN ORDER TO GET THEM TO VOTE WITH THE UNITED STATES AND WITH BRITAIN FOR THE IRAQ WAR.

DRAMATIC STUFF INDEED.

AND NOW A TIMELY HOLLYWOOD FILM STARS KEIRA KNIGHTLEY AS KATHERINE GUNN CALLED 'OFFICIAL SECRETS.'

IT'S OUT NOW.

HERE'S A CLIP.

MY MOTIVE WAS TO STOP A WAR AND SAVE LIVES.

I FAILED.

WHAT I'VE MANAGED TO DO IS PUT MY HUSBAND'S FUTURE AT RISK.

AND YOUR OWN.

IN FACT, BY LEAKING INFORMATION TO TRY AND STOP A WAR, I'D ARGUE THAT YOU CHOICE LOYALTY TO YOUR COUNTRY OVER LOYALTY TO YOUR GOVERNMENT, YOUR MARRIAGE, YOURSELF.

YOU HAD NOTHING TO GAIN AND EVERYTHING TO LOSE.

I THINK THAT SPEAKS RATHER HIGHLY OF YOU.

AND KATHERINE GUNN JOINED ME HERE IN THE STUDIO TO TALK ABOUT HER INCREDIBLE STORY.

KATHERINE GUNN, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

THANK YOU.

DOES IT SEEM TO YOU OR HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT THIS FILM COMING OUT, 'OFFICIAL SECRETS,' RIGHT AT A MOMENT WHERE WHISTLE-BLOWERS ARE SO MUCH IN THE NEWS?

WELL, I DON'T THINK THERE COULD BE A MORE TIMELY MOMENT FOR THIS FILM.

I'M REALLY PLEASED THAT IT'S COMING OUT NOW AND I HOPE WE CAN TALK ABOUT ISSUES AROUND IT.

WE WILL.

HOW DOES IT MAKE YOU FEEL?

YOU HAVEN'T SPOKEN MUCH ABOUT YOUR EXPERIENCE.

OBVIOUSLY YOU WENT THROUGH A VERY DIFFICULT TIME.

YOU WERE MUCH YOUNGER, YOU WERE NEWLY SORT OF IN THE PROFESSIONAL WORLD, AND YOU WERE TAKING ON YOUR GOVERNMENT.

HOW DOES THIS MAKE YOU FEEL, AS YOU SEE THE FILM, AS YOU SEE WHAT'S HAPPENING IN THE UNITED STATES WITH THE WHISTLE-BLOWING?

WELL, I'M GLAD THAT IT'S TAKEN 16 YEARS FOR THE FILM TO COME OUT.

I KNOW THAT SOUNDS STRANGE.

BUT IT'S ACTUALLY -- IT'S BEEN GOOD FOR ME BECAUSE I DON'T THINK I COULD HAVE DEALT WITH THIS 10 YEARS AGO.

THE ISSUES, WHAT I FACED, WHAT HAPPENED AFTERWARDS, IT LEFT, YOU KNOW -- IT LEFT ME IN A DIFFICULT POSITION.

AND I DID SORT OF SUFFER FOR A WHILE WHEN I WAS INTERVIEWED, I WOULD GET FLASHBACKS AND PALPITATIONS FROM TALKING ABOUT THE ISSUE.

NOW I DON'T.

NOW I'M PERFECTLY CALM AND SENSIBLE WHEN I TALK ABOUT THE ISSUES.

WHAT DID YOU SUFFER PERSONALLY AND PROFESSIONALLY?

BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY THERE'S ONE THING WHISTLE-BLOWERS OR POTENTIAL WHISTLE-BLOWERS TAKE INTO ACCOUNT.

WE'LL GET TO THE NITTY GRITTY, BUT BASICALLY YOU TRIED TO BLOW THE WHISTLE ON WHAT YOU THOUGHT WAS A FALSE INTELLIGENCE DIRECTIVE, TO TRY TO COOK UP A REASON FOR THE IRAQ WAR.

YOU WANTED TO STOP THE IRAQ WAR.

YOU DIDN'T, BUT NONETHELESS, YOU WANTED TO DO THAT.

HOW SCARY WAS IT FOR YOU TO GO AHEAD AND DO WHAT YOU DID?

IT'S, YOU KNOW -- IT'S VERY HARD TO EXPLAIN THE POINT OF VIEW I HAD OR THE MENTAL STATE I WAS IN AT THE TIME.

ALL I COULD SEE WAS THIS LOOMING WAR.

IT SEEMED INEVITABLE.

IT WAS, AS IT HAPPENED.

BUT IT SEEMED INEVITABLE.

IT SEEMED LIKE IT WAS -- THE WAGONS WERE ROLLING FAST AND FURIOUS TOWARDS THIS AWFUL SITUATION.

AND I WAS KIND OF IN TUNNEL VISION.

I WAS SORT OF -- I FELT LIKE I WAS BLINKERED AS A HORSE.

I COULDN'T SEE BEYOND THIS WAR, AND ALL I WANTED TO DO WAS PUT A SPOKE IN THE WHEEL OF THIS WAGON.

AND THAT SPOKE WAS THIS MEMO THAT HAD BEEN LEAKED TO YOU AND THEN YOU LEAKED IT TO THE PRESS.

NOT LEAKED BUT DELIVERED TO YOU BY SOMEBODY WITHIN YOUR ORGANIZATION.

WELL, I WAS A RECIPIENT ALONGSIDE ABOUT 100 OTHER RECIPIENTS OF THAT EMAIL.

OKAY.

SO WHAT DID IT SAY, AND WHAT WAS YOUR DECISION-MAKING PROCESS?

WELL, SIMPLY, THE EMAIL WAS FROM THE NSA, WHICH IS THE U.S.

EQUIVALENT OF GCHQ.

AND IT WAS ASKING FOR OUR ASSISTANCE, GCHQ'S ASSISTANCE, IN COLLECTING INFORMATION FROM SIX OF THE U.N. SECURITY COUNCIL SWING NATIONS.

SO THAT WAS ANGOLA, BULGARIA, CAMEROON, CHILE, GUINEA, PAKISTAN.

AND THOSE SIX SWING NATIONS, THEIR DELEGATES --

WHEN YOU SAY SWING NATIONS, THEY WERE ONES THAT THE U.S. AND UK WERE TRYING TO GET ON SIDE.

RIGHT.

SO YOU COULD GET A U.N.

RESOLUTION FOR THE WAR, CORRECT?

THAT'S RIGHT, YEAH.

THEY WERE GOING TO USE INFORMATION GATHERED FROM THE INTELLIGENCE TO EITHER BRIBE OR BLACKMAIL THEM INTO VOTING FOR THIS WAR.

AND IN THE FILM, YOUR CHARACTER, PLAYED BY KEIRA KNIGHTLEY, BASICALLY SAYS -- I MEAN YOU SAY YOU WERE PROUD OF WORKING IN GCHQ UNTIL YOU SAW THIS MEMO.

YOU SAY THAT, YOU KNOW, I DIDN'T JOIN IN ORDER TO FIX A VOTE IN THE U.N. TO CONVINCE THE WORLD TO GO TO A WAR, TO GO TO WAR.

HERE'S A CLIP OF YOU BEING INTERROGATED BY THE POLICE DETECTIVE.

SO YOU WORK FOR THE BRITISH GOVERNMENT.

NO.

NOT REALLY.

NO?

GOVERNMENTS CHANGE.

I WORK FOR THE BRITISH PEOPLE.

I GATHER INTELLIGENCE SO THAT THE GOVERNMENT CAN PROTECT THE BRITISH PEOPLE.

I DO NOT GATHER INTELLIGENCE SO THAT THE GOVERNMENT CAN LIE TO THE BRITISH PEOPLE.

I MEAN, THAT'S PRETTY BALLSY.

HE THOUGHT HE HAD GOT YOU BY SAYING, YOU WORK FOR THE GOVERNMENT.

WAS THAT POINT MORE OR LESS CORRECT THAT YOU REFUSED TO ACCEPT THAT YOU WORKED, COME WHAT MAY, FOR THE GOVERNMENT?

THAT YOU WORKED TO PROTECT THE PEOPLE FROM EXCESS?

THAT'S RIGHT.

I THINK LATER ON WE HAD THE LEAK WHICH SHOWED THAT INTELLIGENCE WAS BEING FIXED AROUND THE POLICY, YOU SEE.

THIS IS THE EXACT SAME KIND OF ISSUE.

THEY WERE USING OUR SERVICES, USING THE INTELLIGENCE SERVICES, TO UNDERMINE AND, YOU KNOW, SUBVERT THE DEMOCRATIC PROCESSES OF THE U.N.

AND DO YOU HAVE ANY FLASHBACKS OR SORT OF THOUGHTS WHEN YOU SEE WHAT THE WHISTLE-BLOWERS IN THE UNITED STATES, JUST THE RECENT ONES, OVER THE UKRAINE ISSUE -- I MEAN, HOW WOULD YOU DESCRIBE WHAT THEY'VE DONE AND WHAT THEY MUST BE FEELING RIGHT NOW?

I THINK, YOU KNOW -- WE ARE IN THIS DIFFICULT SITUATION BECAUSE THE LAWS ARE SO UNCLEAR.

AND THEY BASICALLY EXCLUDE ANY KIND OF PUBLIC INTEREST DISCLOSURE.

SO IN THE U.S. YOU HAVE THE CASE OF MANY WHISTLE-BLOWERS BEING CHARGED UNDER THE ESPIONAGE ACT, WHICH BY THE WAY WAS TAKEN MORE OR LESS WORD FOR WORD, GIVING ANY INFORMATION TO ANYBODY AT ANY TIME, SO IT PREVENTS PEOPLE, INTELLIGENCE OFFICERS OR ANYBODY WHO SIGNED THESE AGREEMENTS OR THESE PIECES OF LAW TO BRING FORWARD INSTANCES OF ILLEGALITY, IMMORALITY, AND CRIME OF, YOU KNOW, OF ALL KINDS OF DESCRIPTION.

IN YOUR CASE, AS WE'VE SAID IN SOME OF THE CLIPS THAT WE'VE PLAYED, YOU WERE TRYING TO STOP THIS WAR, AND YOU ADMIT THAT YOU FAILED.

BUT YOU WERE CHARGED AND YOU WERE BROUGHT TO TRIAL.

AND THEN IT WAS DROPPED.

THE CASE WAS DROPPED.

AND I THINK YOU REGRET THAT THE CASE WAS DROPPED, PARADOXICALLY.

WHY IS THAT?

YEAH, IT'S A VERY DIFFICULT POINT.

I MEAN, OBVIOUSLY I WAS HUGELY RELIEVED, BECAUSE ONE OF THE PRIN PRINCIPAL THINGS AT THE TIME WAS MY FEAR OF BEING IN THE PUBLIC EYE, STRANGE AS IT MAY SEEM AT THE MOMENT.

BACK THEN I WAS VERY, VERY CONCERNED ABOUT THAT.

AND HAVING THIS HIGH-PROFILE POLITICAL TRIAL WAS THE LAST THING I REALLY WANTED.

ON THE OTHER HAND, WE HAD BUILT UP TO THIS HUGE, BIG FIGHT, IF YOU LIKE, AND WE WERE DETERMINED TO ASK FOR THE ATTORNEY GENERAL'S LEGAL ADVICE, WHICH WE HAD HEARD HAD CHANGED BETWEEN A VISIT THAT HE HAD AT THE U.S.

WHEREBY THE PREVIOUS ADVICE WAS THAT IT WAS ILLEGAL AND THE SUBSEQUENT ADVICE WAS THAT IT WAS LEGAL.

THIS IS FOR THE WAR?

FOR THE WAR, THAT'S RIGHT.

WE WERE GOING TO DEMAND FOR THOSE PAPERS AND THAT ADVICE.

AND LITERALLY I SUPPOSE WE WERE GOING TO PUT THE WAR IN IRAQ ON TRIAL.

THERE'S AN INTERESTING SCENE FROM MY PERSPECTIVE, VERY INTERESTING BEING A JOURNALIST, COVERING THESE THINGS.

OF COURSE THIS JOURNALIST WAS THE RECIPIENT OF YOUR MEMO.

YOU GAVE TO IT HIM.

HE WORKED FOR 'THE OBSERVER.'

IT CAME AT A TIME WHEN THE PRESS HERE IN THE UNITED KINGDOM AND THE PRESS IN THE UNITED STATES BY AND LARGE SUPPORTED THE WAR.

HERE IS A CLIP OF YOU TALKING TO THE JOURNALIST TO WHOM YOU GAVE THE MEMO.

IT'S AN HONOR.

I'LL BE IN THE PRESS GALLERY OVER TO YOUR RIGHT.

YEAH.

YES.

YOU TOOK A REAL RISK --

NO, YOU TOOK THE RISK.

I THINK WHAT YOU DID WAS EXTRAORDINARY.

I THINK WHAT YOU EXPOSED WAS EXTRAORDINARY.

ALL OUR INSTITUTIONS FAILED US.

THE GOVERNMENT, THE INTELLIGENCE SERVICES, THE PRESS, THEY FAILED US CATEGORICALLY.

EVEN MY OWN PAPER SUPPORTED THE WAR BEFORE THAT MEMO.

THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE.

NO, THANK YOU.

IT'S IMPORTANT WHAT YOU DID.

IT MATTERS.

IT MATTERS, HE SAYS.

HE ALSO SAID, ALL THE INSTITUTIONS HAVE FAILED TO ASK THE QUESTIONS AND TO SORT OF ENACT THAT KIND OF ACCOUNTABILITY.

DO YOU REMEMBER WHAT IT WAS LIKE AT THE TIME, WHEN PRETTY MUCH ALL THE INSTITUTIONS WERE MOVING IN ONE DIRECTION ON BOTH SIDES OF THE ATLANTIC?

YES.

I MEAN, IT WAS EXTRAORDINARY.

THE SORT OF LOCKSTEP THAT THESE INSTITUTIONS FALL INTO WHEN THE GOVERNMENT DECIDES TO TAKE A COUNTRY TO WAR.

AND I THINK THAT IS SOMETHING THAT NEEDS DEEP SCRUTINY.

BECAUSE AGAIN, WE'RE AT A TIME WHEN THIS IS A REAL POSSIBILITY, YOU KNOW.

IN VARIOUS COUNTRIES.

AND I THINK EVERYONE, EVERYONE WHO WORKS WITH THE PRESS, WITH THE MEDIA, WITH EVEN PARLIAMENTARIANS IN THE UK AND REPRESENTATIVES IN THE U.S., HOW DO THEY GET SWEPT ALONG IN THIS?

WHY DO THEY GET SWEPT ALONG WITH IT?

AND WHAT THEY DO DO ABOUT IT?

IT'S A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE WARNING OF THE HERD MENTALITY.

YOU COULD SAY THAT, YES.

BECAUSE I THINK IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO SEPARATE YOURSELF FROM THIS CONCEPT OF PATRIOTISM.

YOU KNOW, WHEN THE GOVERNMENT DECIDES THAT IT'S TIME TO GO TO WAR.

BUT I WOULD ARGUE THAT THE IRAQ WAR WAS NOT IN THE NATIONAL INTEREST.

IT DID NOT BENEFIT THE UK IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM.

AND THAT IT HAS, IN FACT, BEEN DETRIMENTAL TO OUR NATIONAL SECURITY.

SO I THINK WE NEED TO LOOK AT THAT AND THE HISTORIES OF THE IRAQ WAR BEFORE WE START EVEN CONSIDERING ANY OTHER INTERVENTION.

DO YOU FEEL VINDICATED TODAY, 16-PLUS YEARS ON, THAT MOST ANALYSIS AGREES WITH YOU, THAT IT WAS NOT IN THE END TO THE BENEFIT OF EITHER THE UNITED STATES OR THE UNITED KINGDOM OR EUROPE?

I SUPPOSE SO.

PERSONALLY I DON'T FEEL LIKE WHAT I DID WAS EXTRAORDINARY.

I FELT IT WAS JUST A NECESSARY THING TO DO.

AND I HOPE THAT THIS FILM WILL ENABLE PEOPLE TO THINK -- I MEAN, FIRST AND FOREMOST, IT'S A FORM OF ENTERTAINMENT.

BUT I HOPE THAT IT WILL GIVE PEOPLE PEOPLE PAUSE TO THINK ABOUT THE ISSUES.

YOU SAID YOU SUFFERED A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF PTSD AFTER THIS ENTIRE EPISODE.

YEAH.

IN WHAT WAY?

HOW DID IT AFFECT YOU PERSONALLY AND PROFESSIONALLY?

I MEAN, OBVIOUSLY YOU CAN NEVER GO BACK TO GCHQ.

NO.

THAT'S ANOTHER ISSUE THAT I'VE STRUGGLED WITH OVER THE YEARS.

BUT WHEN I BECAME A MOTHER I CHOSE TO STAY AT HOME WITH MY DAUGHTER, AND YOU KNOW, I'VE THOROUGHLY ENJOYED BEING A MOTHER.

BUT NOW THAT SHE'S 11, I'M HOPING TO ADDRESS SOME OF THESE ISSUES AND MAYBE CAMPAIGN ON SOME ISSUES.

AND I HOPE THAT THIS FILM WILL SORT OF HELP US COME TO TERMS WITH A LOT OF THINGS.

IT'S INTERESTING, BECAUSE WHISTLE-BLOWING, CERTAINLY IN THE UNITED STATES, THERE IS A LAW IN VARIOUS INTELLIGENCE ARMS AND ALSO IN THE STATE DEPARTMENT.

THERE ARE LAWS THAT ALLOW YOU, IF YOU SEE WHAT YOU THINK IS IMMORAL OR ILLEGAL TAKING PLACE, TO REPORT IT UP THE CHAIN.

I IN FACT SPOKE TO A FORMER VERY SENIOR DIPLOMAT IN THE STATE DEPARTMENT WHO HAS BEEN TALKING ABOUT THIS IN LIGHT OF HER COLLEAGUE, THE U.S. AMBASSADOR TO UKRAINE, BEING FIRED FOR NOT WANTING TO GO ALONG WITH WHAT SHE THOUGHT PRESIDENT TRUMP WAS ORDERING HER TO DO, TO FACILITATE VIS-A-VIS DIGGING UP DIRT ON BIDEN, ET CETERA.

AND THIS IS WHAT SHE SAID ABOUT WHISTLE-BLOWING.

WE HAVE A PROFESSIONAL ETHOS WHICH CALLS UPON US TO IDENTIFY AND CALL OUT ILLICIT, IMMORAL, OR ILLEGAL ACTIVITY.

AND IF WE CANNOT GET THE TRACTION THAT WE NEED WITHIN OUR AGENCY STRUCTURES, WE ARE THEN TO GO TO THE INSPECTOR GENERALS TO FILE FORMAL GRIEVANCES AND COMPLAINTS AND TO BECOME A WHISTLE-BLOWER.

INSTEAD OF ATTACKING THE WHISTLE-BLOWER AND TRYING TO UNDERCUT, UNCLOAK THE IDENTITY OF THIS INDIVIDUAL, WHAT PEOPLE THROUGHOUT OUR GOVERNMENT SHOULD BE DOING IS TALKING ABOUT HOW COURAGEOUS THAT PERSON WAS AND WORKING HARD TO ENSURE THE SAFETY OF THIS PERSON.

HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT THAT?

THAT MUST ENCOURAGE YOU?

YES.

IT'S HOPEFUL.

AND I THINK WE NEED TO WORK ON ALL THESE ISSUES ABOUT, YOU KNOW, PROVIDING A MEANS WHEREBY OFFICIALS CAN BRING FORWARD INFORMATION IF THEY FEEL IT IS IN THE PUBLIC INTEREST TO KNOW.

CURRENTLY IN THE UK WE HAVE THE MOST DRACONIAN SECRECY LAWS AND THE MOST DRACONIAN SORT OF LEVELS OF SECRECY.

AND I THINK -- WELL, I'M HOPING THAT WE CAN ACTUALLY REFORM IT, BECAUSE PREVIOUSLY, BEFORE 1989, THE OFFICIAL SECRETS ACT DID HAVE A PUBLIC INTEREST DEFENSE.

DANIEL ELLSBERG, WHO YOU WALL KNOW, ONE OF THE MOST FAMOUS WHISTLE-BLOWERS OF ALL TIME, LEAKED THE PENTAGON PAPERS, HE SAID ABOUT YOU, THE MOST IMPORTANT AND COURAGEOUS LEAK I'VE EVER SEEN, NO ONE ELSE, INCLUDING MYSELF, HAVE EVER DONE WHAT GUNN DID, TELL SECRET TRUTHS AT PERSONAL RISK BEFORE IMMINENT WAR POSSIBLY TO AVERT IT.

WELL, YOU DIDN'T AVERT IT, BUT THAT'S HIGH PRAISE.

YEAH, I MEAN, DANIEL ELLSBERG IS I WOULD SAY A FRIEND OF MINE, AND HE'S BEEN ENORMOUSLY SUPPORTIVE AND HELPFUL.

HE'S JUST AN AMAZING, AMAZING ACTIVIST AFTER ALL THESE YEARS.

HIS BRAIN IS STILL ENCYCLO PEAD AND I CAN HE'S FORENSIC IN HIS DETAILING OF ISSUES.

SO IT'S A REAL HONOR THAT I HAVE A FRIEND LIKE DAN ELLSBERG.

GIVEN THE CHOICE AND THE CHANCE, WOULD YOU DO IT AGAIN?

UNDER THE SAME CIRCUMSTANCES?

YES, I WOULD.

KATHERINE GUNN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

THANK YOU.

> NOW LET'S TURN OUR ATTENTION BACK TO THE FILM 'THE IRISHMAN.'

BUT THIS TIME TO ITS MUSIC.

ROCK LEGEND ROBBY ROBERTSON HAS ONCE AGAIN COLLABORATED WITH MARTIN SCORSESE TO SCORE HIS LATEST MOB HIT.

ROBERTSON HAS ALSO JUST RELEASED A SOLO ALBUM ASK STARRED IN A NEW DOCUMENTARY BASED ON THE MEMOIR OF HIS TIME IN THE BAND.

HE GAVE A GLIMPSE OF HIS EARLY DAYS IN MUSIC TO OUR WALTER ISAACSON.

ROBBY, THANKS FOR BEING HERE.

THANK YOU.

SO CINEMATIC, IT'S VERY PERSONAL.

YOU'VE BEEN THERE IN ALL THE GREAT MOMENTS OF ROCK IN SOME WAYS.

BIG TAPE, THE BASEMENT TAPES, DYLAN GONE ELECTRIC.

AN ALBUM COME OUT THAT'S DEEPLY PERSONAL.

EXPLAIN WHAT THAT WAS ABOUT.

THERE WERE A LOT OF THE THINGS GOING ON WHILE I WAS MAKING THIS RECORD THAT ALL THESE CONNECTIONS WERE BEING MADE.

THEY WERE MAKING THIS DOCUMENTARY, 'ONCE WERE BROTHERS.'

AND WHILE THEY WERE MAKING THAT, I ONE DAY SAT DOWN TO WRITE A SONG, YOU KNOW -- I NEVER KNOW WHERE IT'S GOING TO GO WHEN I SIT DOWN.

AND THIS SONG CAME OUT THAT WAS REFLECTIVE OF THE GUYS IN THE BAND AND THIS BROTHERHOOD.

AND SO I WROTE THIS SONG, AND THE PEOPLE MAKING THE MOVIE SAID, OH MY GOD, THIS IS EXACTLY WHERE WE'RE GOING WITH THIS FILM.

AND THEY ENDED UP CALLING THE FILM 'ONCE WERE BROTHERS.'

AND THE SONGS IN THERE.

GIVE ME THE OPENING LYRICS OF 'ONCE WERE BROTHERS.'

'WHEN THE LIGHTS GO OUT AND YOU CAN'T GO ON YOU MISS YOUR BROTHERS BUT NOW THEY'RE GONE.'

THERE'S A BUNCH SCENE IN WHICH YOU INTRODUCE EACH OF YOUR FELLOW BAND MEMBERS.

IN WOODSTOCK, IN THE STUDIO IN WOODSTOCK, EVERYBODY'S PLAYING.

SHOW THAT CLIP AND MAYBE YOU CAN TELL ME ABOUT IT.

♪

I THINK ABOUT LEVON, RICHARD, RICK, AND GARTH ALL THE TIME.

WE WEREN'T THROUGH THINGS TOGETHER YOU CAN NEVER REPLACE, YOU CAN NEVER GIVE ENOUGH CREDIT TO SOMETHING THAT SPECIAL.

I WAS AN ONLY CHILD.

SO THIS BROTHERHOOD WAS SO POWERFUL.

IT WAS SO INTENSE.

WHY DID IT GO SO SOUR FOR A WHILE?

I JOINED UP WITH LEVON WHEN I WAS 16 YEARS OLD.

IN 1960.

THEN OVER THE NEXT COUPLE OF YEARS THE REST OF THE GUYS THAT BECAME THE BAND JOINED UP WITH US.

THEN IN THE END OF '65 WE HOOKED UP WITH BOB DYLAN.

'66 WE DID THIS WORLD TOUR WITH HIM WHERE THEY BOOED US EVERYWHERE THAT WE PLAYED AROUND THE WORLD.

THAT WAS A UNIQUE EXPERIENCE.

BECAUSE HE WENT ELECTRIC, THAT'S WHY THEY WERE BOOING.

WHAT I WAS IT LIKE WHEN THEY STARTED SAYING, JUDAS?

BETRAYING ROCK?

I'D NEVER HEARD OF ANYTHING LIKE THIS, WALTER THAT PEOPLE PLAY AROUND THE WORLD AND THEY BOO YOU EVERY NIGHT.

AND ON SOME LEVEL IT'S VERY SUCCESSFUL.

IT GOES ON TO BECOME PART OF A MUSICAL REVOLUTION AND CHANGES THE COURSE OF MUSIC FOREVER.

AND YEARS LATER, WHEN WE PLAYED TOGETHER AGAIN, EVERYBODY CELEBRATED IT LIKE IT WAS, YOU KNOW -- LIKE IT WAS ALWAYS TERRIFIC.

BUT WE KNEW THE DIFFERENCE.

SO ANYWAY, AFTER THAT, AND THE BAND, YOU KNOW -- WE MADE THESE ALBUMS.

AND THEY HAD A TREMENDOUS EFFECT ON THE COURSE OF MUSIC, ON THE CULTURE, ON ALL KINDS OF THINGS.

BUT IN THIS ERA, IN THIS PERIOD, THERE WAS A LOT OF EXPERIMENTING GOING ON WITH DRUGS.

PEOPLE WERE LIKE, OH, DID YOU TRY THIS ONE YET?

AND IN THE BEGINNING THERE WAS SOMETHING THAT DIDN'T SEEM THAT DANGEROUS ABOUT IT.

AS TIME WENT ON, TO BE INTRODUCED TO SOMETHING THAT WE WERE REALLY UNFAMILIAR WITH, AND IT'S CALLED ADDICTION.

AND ALCOHOLISM.

AND SO AS THIS STARTS TO SEEP IN, IT HAS A BIG EFFECT ON THE BROTHERHOOD.

IT HAS A BIG EFFECT ON THE MUSIC.

AND WE DIDN'T KNOW HOW TO HANDLE IT, YOU KNOW.

WITH SOME GUYS WE'D BE LIKE, HEY, MAN, YOU'RE DRINKING TOO MUCH.

I CAME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT WE WEREN'T GOING TO PUT A BAND-AID ON THIS AND FIX IT.

SO I SAID, LET'S DO THE LAST WALTZ.

LET'S BRING THIS AMAZING JOURNEY THAT WE'VE HAD TO A BEAUTIFUL CONCLUSION IN THE NAME OF MUSIC.

AND THE IDEA WAS THEN WE BOUGHT OURSELVES A TICKET TO TAKE A BREATHER, TAKE A BREAK.

EVERYBODY COULD GO.

SOME OF THE GUYS WANTED TO MAKE SOLO ALBUMS, TRY THIS, DO THIS.

THEN WE WERE GOING TO COME BACK TOGETHER AND DO SOMETHING.

THIS WAS MY DREAM.

WE WOULD DO SOMETHING CREATIVE AND AS GOOD AS ANYTHING WE'D EVER DONE BEFORE.

AND WHAT HAPPENED WAS, AFTER A PERIOD OF TIME, NOBODY CAME BACK.

BUT SOME OF THE MEMBERS DO COME BACK A LITTLE BIT LATER.

THEY ASKED ME IF I WANTED TO COME AND PLAY SOME JOBS WITH THEM.

BECAUSE SOME TIME WENT BY, AND THEY ASKED, THEY SAID, WE WANT TO GO AND PLAY SOME JOBS.

AND I SAID, OKAY, IF WE GO OUT AND CALL OURSELVES THE BAND.

AND I SAID, ABSOLUTELY, I WOULD NEVER GET IN THE WAY.

BUT IT WAS REALLY A MATTER OF PEOPLE JUST NEED -- YOU NEED TO MAKE A LIVING, RIGHT?

AND -- BUT I STILL HAD THIS THING THAT I WAS CONCERNED ABOUT THE WELL-BEING OF CERTAIN GUYS IN THE GROUP.

LET'S TALK ABOUT LEVON HELM.

ONE OF THE THINGS IN THE DOCUMENTARY IS WATCHING YOU ALL AS TEENAGERS.

ALMOST LIKE -- I MEAN, REALLY LIKE BROTHERS.

AND HOW CLOSE YOU WERE TO HIM.

EXPLAIN THAT EARLY RELATIONSHIP AND THE INTENSITY.

WELL, WHEN I -- WHEN RONNIE HAWKINS HIRED ME, I WENT FROM CANADA DOWN TO THE MISSISSIPPI DELTA.

DOWN TO HELENA, ARKANSAS.

AND THIS WAS FOR ME GOING TO THE FOUNTAIN HEAD OF ROCK 'N' ROLL.

THIS IS WHERE THIS MUSIC GREW OUT OF THE GROUND.

SO IT WAS LIKE MYTHOLOGY TO ME, COMING FROM CANADA.

INEXPERIENCED IN LIFE.

AND I'M NOT A GOOD ENOUGH GUITAR PLAYER TO TAKE OVER LEAD GUITAR IN THIS BAND YET.

I HAVE TO OVERCOME THIS.

AND I DID.

AND I DID IT WITH THE HELP OF LEVON HELM.

HE THOUGHT, I'VE GOT SOMETHING.

I'VE GOT A CERTAIN TALENT.

AND HE BEFRIENDED ME.

AND LEVON AND I REALLY BECAME VERY CLOSE FRIENDS.

AND WE WERE FOREVER.

YOU KNOW, JUST FOREVER.

UP UNTIL WE DID 'THE LAST WALTZ.'

THEN AFTER THAT, WHEN EVERYBODY WENT IN DIFFERENT DIRECTIONS.

I DIDN'T SEE HIM AS MUCH.

AND HE WAS OFF.

HE WANTED TO DO HIS OWN THING.

AND I MISSED HIM TERRIBLY.

DO YOU THINK YOU FEEL YOU'VE GOT IT?

YOU GOT IT RESOLVED IN YOUR OWN HEAD, THE FALLING-OUT, AND THE RESOLUTION AT THE END?

I NEVER -- I NEVER HAD A FALLING-OUT, ON MY SIDE OF IT.

LEVON WENT TO A PLACE AND HE HIT SOME HARD TIMES.

AND IN THOSE HARD TIMES HE -- HE WAS THINKING ABOUT WHAT WENT WRONG.

AND HE BLAMED ME FOR IT.

AND I KNEW HIM SO WELL, YOU KNOW -- I KNEW HIM SO WELL THAT I WAS LIKE, THAT'S LEVON.

YOU KNOW.

HE'S GOT THESE ISSUES.

EVERYBODY KNOWS WHAT HAPPENED.

HE SAW FROM IT ONE WAY, I SAW IT FROM ANOTHER.

AND I LOVED HIM, AND THAT'S IT.

END OF STORY.

I DON'T HAVE A PART IN WHATEVER THE ISSUE WAS.

YOU HAD AN INTERESTING CHILDHOOD.

YOUR MOTHER WAS FROM AN INDIAN RESERVATION.

I THINK SHE WAS CUYOGA AS WELL AS MOHAWK.

YEP.

YOU HAD AN ABUSIVE FATHER YOU GREW UP WITH.

YEP.

AT ONE POINT YOUR MOTHER TELLS YOU A STORY.

WHEN I WAS LIKE 13 YEARS OLD, BECAUSE ROBERTSON, MY FATHER, HE HAD BEEN ABUSIVE TO MY MOTHER AND TO ME.

AND SHE SAID, THAT'S IT, I'M DONE, WE'RE GOING.

AND THEN ONE DAY SHE SAID TO ME, YOU KNOW, I SHOULD HAVE PROBABLY BROUGHT THIS UP TO YOU BEFORE, BUT HE'S NOT YOUR FATHER.

AND I WAS LIKE, WHAT?

WHAT DO YOU MEAN HE'S NOT MY FATHER?

I GREW UP, THIS GUY WAS MY FATHER, RIGHT?

JIM ROBERTSON.

AND SO SHE ENDED UP INTRODUCING ME TO THE RELATIVES OF MY BLOOD FATHER.

AND THEY WERE WONDERFUL PEOPLE.

BUT YOUR FATHER HAD BEEN KILLED?

MY BLOOD FATHER WAS KILLED BEFORE I WAS BORN.

SO I DIDN'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THIS UNTIL THEN.

AND MY RELATIVES WOULD TELL ME GREAT STORIES ABOUT HIM.

WHAT HIS THING WAS, HE HAD A PHENOMENAL MEMORY.

AND HE WAS A CARD COUNTER BEFORE PEOPLE KNEW WHAT A CARD COUNTER WAS.

AND HE GAMBLED.

AND HE DID -- HE WAS VERY SUCCESSFUL.

THEN MY UNCLE IS LIKE A MAJOR UNDERWORLD FIGURE.

AND YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU'RE YOUNG YOU THINK, WHOO.

KIND OF COOL, YOU KNOW.

DID IT HELP SHAPE YOU?

ALL THIS STUFF.

IN THE DOCUMENTARY I SAY TO THEM, YOU KNOW -- YOU KNOW, I'M REALLY, REALLY DRAWN TO MUSIC.

AND THAT'S A DIRECTION I WANT TO GO IN.

THEY'RE LIKE WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

MUSIC?

YOU SHOULD BE IN THE BUSINESS WITH US.

AND MY OTHER UNCLE IS LIKE, YOU DON'T WANT TO BE IN FURS AND DIAMONDS?

WHAT'S THE MATTER?

AND THEN THE LIGHT WENT ON AND THEY WENT, YOU MEAN SHOW BUSINESS?

OH!

OH, OKAY.

OKAY, WE UNDERSTAND THAT.

THIS WHOLE ALBUM SEEMS TO HAVE A LOT OF STRANDS OF YOUR LIFE IN IT, AS DOES THE DOCUMENTARY THAT YOU DID WITH IT.

HOW DOES THAT CONNECT TO WHAT YOU AND SCORSESE DID WITH THIS NEW MOVIE COMING OUT ON 'THE IRISHMAN'?

WHEN WE DID 'THE LAST WALTZ,' WE BECAME REALLY GOOD FRIENDS.

AND HE WOULD TURN ME ON TO AMAZING MOVIES THAT I WOULD HAVE NEVER SEEN.

AND I WAS TURNING HIM ON TO SOME MUSIC THAT HE MAY HAVE NEVER HEARD.

SO WE HAD THIS INTERCHANGE.

THEN HE'S DIRECTING 'RAGING BULL.'

AND HE SAYS, I'D LIKE YOU TO HELP ME OUT WITH THE MUSIC ON THIS.

AND HE ASKED ME TO DO THE SOURCE MUSIC FOR THE MOVIE.

AND THEN THERE WAS SONGS THAT I HAD TURNED HIM ON TO THAT ENDED UP IN THE MOVIE AS WELL.

SO AFTER I DID 'RAGING BULL' WITH HIM, I WAS HOOKED.

SO WE'VE BEEN DOING THIS OVER ALL THESE YEARS.

THE NEW ONE IS 'THE IRISHMAN.'

THE SCORE THAT I DID FOR THIS MOVIE IS SOMETHING LIKE I'VE NEVER DONE BEFORE.

AND I'VE WORKED ON -- I DON'T EVEN REMEMBER HOW MANY OF THESE MOVIES NOW.

SO WHY IS THE SCORE UNLIKE ANYTHING YOU'VE EVER WORKED ON BEFORE?

BECAUSE IT TAKES PLACE OVER MANY DECADES.

THIS STORY.

AND I NEEDED TO FIND SOMETHING THAT DIDN'T SOUND LIKE, OH, THAT'S THE 1950s.

OH, THAT'S THE 1980s.

THAT IT COULD PLAY AND IT HAD A TIMELESS QUALITY TO IT.

AND THEN I SAID TO MARTY, I THINK I'M ON TO IT.

AND HE SAID, OH, THAT'S GOOD, THAT'S GOOD.

AS LONG AS IT DOESN'T SOUND LIKE MOVIE MUSIC.

AND NOT THAT HE HAS ANYTHING AGAINST TRADITIONAL FILM MUSIC OR ME, BUT HE SAYS, I JUST DON'T KNOW HOW TO DO THAT, I DON'T KNOW HOW TO DO THE BUMP TA PURPOSE,BUM, THE THING.

I UNDERSTAND THAT.

SO THAT'S WHY WE'VE BEEN DOING THIS TOGETHER ALL THESE YEARS.

AND HOPEFULLY FOREVER.

SO YOU TAKE ONE OF THE GREATEST SONGS YOU EVER WROTE FOR THE BAND, 'THE WAIT.'

AND YOU MAKE IT NEW AGAIN BY GOING AROUND THE WORLD.

IT'S A WONDERFUL VIDEO.

♪ ♪ GOING INTO NAZARETH I WAS FEELING ABOUT HALF PAST TEN ♪

MY SON SEBASTIAN PRODUCED THAT.

IT WAS HIS IDEA.

AND SO HE TOLD ME, HE SAID, YOU KNOW WHAT I'D LIKE TO DO, I'D LIKE TO DO ONE OF THESE PLAYING FOR CHANGE.

IT'S A THING THAT THEY HAVE DONE BEFORE WITH OTHER SONGS.

AND THEY'RE VERY IMPRESSIVE.

HE SAID, BUT I WANT TO DO ONE WITH 'THE WAIT.'

AND SO, YOU KNOW, I NEED YOU TO PARTICIPATE IN THIS AND EVERYTHING.

SO I WAS LIKE, IT'S MY SON, OF COURSE, WHATEVER YOU WANT TO DO.

SO ANYWAY, WE DO IT.

AND THEN RINGO STARR COMES IN.

AND HE'S PART OF IT.

AND HE PLAYS ON IT.

AND THEN WHAT THIS PLAYING FOR CHANGE THING IS, THEY HAVE THE MUSICIANS, EXTRAORDINARY MUSICIANS, FROM ALL ACROSS THE WORLD, PLAYING TOGETHER.

AND WHEREVER THEY ARE, WHETHER THEY'RE IN INDIA, WHETHER THEY'RE IN TOKYO, EVERYWHERE.

EVERYBODY JOINS TOGETHER IN PLAYING THIS SONG.

AND THE VIDEO TURNS OUT TO BE A PHENOMENON.

ONE OF THE THINGS I LEARNED, BOTH FROM THE DOCUMENTARY AND OF COURSE YOUR MEMOIR, IS ABOUT 'THE WAIT.'

AND 'NAZARETH,' WHY IT BEGINS THAT WAY.

I WAS IN A MODE WHEN WE WERE ABOUT TO MAKE MUSIC FROM BIG PINK.

AND I HAD BEEN READING A LOT OF SCREENPLAYS THAT I HAD FOUND THAT YOU COULD BUY AT GOTHAM BOOK MART ON 47th STREET IN NEW YORK.

AND I HAD BEEN READING SOME BOONE WELL SCREENPLAYS.

AND HE HAD A THEME THAT CAME TO THE SURFACE IN SOME OF HIS STORIES THAT WAS KIND OF ABOUT THE IMPOSSIBILITY OF BEING -- OF SAINTHOOD.

OF BEING REALLY RIGHTEOUS.

YOU TRY TO BE TOO RIGHTEOUS, IT WILL TURN ON YOU.

RIGHT?

SO -- AND HE DOES IT WITH A CERTAIN HUMOR AND A CERTAIN SURREALISM.

HE'S A KING OF SURREALISM.

SO ANYWAY, I WAS SITTING AT MY HOUSE IN WOODSTOCK AND I THOUGHT, GOD, I WANT TO WRITE A SONG, AND I JUST -- SOMETIMES YOU NEED SOMETHING TO SPARK THE BEGINNING OF IT.

AND I WAS SITTING THERE WITH MY MARTIN GUITAR.

AND I LOOKED INSIDE.

AND IT SAYS, NAZARETH.

THESE GUITARS ARE MADE IN NAZARETH, PENNSYLVANIA.

RIGHT?

THAT WAS THE HEADQUARTERS OF MARTIN GUITARS.

AND I THOUGHT, NAZARETH.

I LIKE THE SOUND OF THAT.

AND I THOUGHT, I PULLED INTO NAZARETH.

KEEP GOING, KEEP GOING.

I LIKE IT.

FEELING HALF PAST DEAD.

AND THAT WAS THE BEGINNING OF THIS THING THAT WAS REFLECTIVE OF MARY AND JOSEPH, NO ROOM AT THE INN, AND GOING TO THIS P PLACE, AND THERE FOR SOMEBODY SAYING, WHEN YOU GET THERE, SAY HELLO TO JOE FOR ME.

WHEN YOU GET THERE, YOU KNOW, GO AND VISIT, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH.

AND SO THE STORY OF THESE THINGS AND IT ALL TURNS INTO A CRAZY FIASCO IN THIS STORY.

AND IT WAS LIKE A LITTLE MOVIE, THIS SONG.

SO ANYWAY, IT CONNECTED TO THE BOONE WELL THING, IT CONNECTED TO EVERYTHING GOING ON.

AND IT WAS REFLECTIVE OF WHEN I FIRST WENT FROM CANADA DOWN TO THE MISSISSIPPI DELTA AND THE SOUTH WATCHED OVER ME.

AND IT WAS LIKE, WHOA.

JUST THE SOUND OF THE MISSISSIPPI RIVER GOING BY.

THE WAY PEOPLE WALK IN RHYTHM HERE.

EVERYTHING.

THESE CHARACTERS.

ALL OF THESE THINGS KIND OF CAME OUT OF THE DARKNESS FOR ME.

AND I INCORPORATED SOME OF THAT IN THE SONG.

IT WASN'T THAT BIG OF A SONG WHEN IT CAME OUT, NOW IT'S BECOME ONE OF THE GREAT SONGS OF HISTORY.

ANTHEM.

YEAH, AN ANTHEM.

WHY IS THAT?

YOU KNOW, SOME THINGS DO HAVE A TIMELESS QUALITY TO THEM.

AND I -- BECAUSE OF THE MUSIC THAT THE OTHER GUYS IN THE BAND, WE DEEPLY APPRECIATED WAS MUSIC THAT YOU JUST COULD FEEL INSIDE, THAT'S GOING TO BE AROUND.

THAT IS CLASSIC.

AND SO IN WRITING SONGS -- I NEVER WANTED TO WRITE ANYTHING THAT FELT TRENDY OR HAPPENING OR ANYTHING.

I WANTED TO GO TO ANOTHER DIMENSION AND WRITE THINGS THAT JUST CAME FROM A WHOLE OTHER PLACE.

YOU HELPED INVENT AMERICANA MUSIC.

WHAT DO YOU THINK YOUR LEGACY IS GOING TO BE?

I DON'T KNOW, SOMEONE ELSE IS GOING TO HAVE TO FIGURE OUT THE LEGACY PART.

I'M JUST GOING TO TRY TO GIVE THEM SOMETHING GOOD TO TALK ABOUT.

AND A GOOD SOUNDTRACK TO LISTEN TO IT.

GOOD TO SEE YOU, TAKE CARE.

SO GREAT, WALTER, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

ROBBY ROBERTSON ON HIS INCREDIBLE SONGBOOK 'THE BAND AND BEYOND.'

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