October 16, 2024

♪♪ >>> HI, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> UKRAINIANS DESERVE A DECENT PEACE.

THE VICTORY PLAN WILL PAVE THE WAY FOR THIS.

>> ZELENSKYY UNVEILS HIS PATH TO VICTORY, BUT CAN HE CONVINCE THE WEST OF HIS PLAN TO DEFEAT PUTIN?

I ASK ROSE GOTTEMOELLER.

AND WE HAVE AN EXCLUSIVE REPORT ON UKRAINE'S LONG RANGE DRONES TARGETING DEEP INSIDE RUSSIA.

>>> THEN -- HOW WOMEN MADE MUSIC.

NPR MUSIC CRITIC ANNE POWERS JOINS ME TO TALK ABOUT WHAT IT MEANS TO CENTER WOMEN IN POP MUSIC.

>>> ALSO AHEAD -- >> IT'S BEEN ESTABLISHED THAT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY JUST ACCEPTS LYING AS PART OF ITS CULTURE.

>> BEYOND THE BIG LIE.

MICHEL MARTIN TALKS TO POLITIFACT FOUNDER BILL ADAIR ABOUT HIS NEW BOOK THAT EXPLORES THE COST OF POLITICAL LIES.

♪♪ >>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

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THE SYLVIA A.

AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

MARK J. BLECHNER.

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SETON J. MELVIN.

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CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I'M BIANNA GOLODRYGA IN NEW YORK, SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY HAS UNVEILED HIS VICTORY PLAN TO KYIV'S PARLIAMENT.

HE'S URGING HIS WAR WEARY COUNTRY TO STAY UNITED AND REMAIN COMMITTED TO JUSTICE.

>> Translator: I WANT SO BE FRANK WITH YOU ON CERTAIN BEHIND CLOSED DOOR COMMUNICATION WITH UKRAINE.

WE HEAR THE WORD TALKS FROM OUR ALLIES MUCH MORE OFTEN THAN THE WORD JUSTICE.

UKRAINE IS OPEN TO DIPLOMACY, BUT TO THE FAIR ONE.

THAT IS WHY WE HAVE THE PEACE FORMULA.

IT'S A GUARANTEE OF NEGOTIATIONS WITHOUT FORCING UKRAINE TO INJUSTICE.

>> AT THE TOP OF HIS FIVE-POINT PLAN IS A CALL FOR UKRAINE TO RECEIVE A NATO MEMBERSHIP INVITATION.

WHILE NEW NATO CHIEF MARK RUTTE CALLED THE PLAN A STRONG SIGNAL, HE REFUSED TO SUPPORT IT ENTIRELY.

SINCE IT WAS INITIALLY PRESENTED TO JOE BIDEN, AS WELL AS BOTH U.S. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATES BACK IN SEPTEMBER, THE PLAN HAS FAILED TO GARNER ANY REAL SUPPORT.

WELL, NOW WITH UKRAINE WELL INTO ITS THIRD YEAR OF WAR, FEARS OVER HOW IT WILL END ARE GROWING.

AND WITH THE U.S. PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION RIGHT AROUND THE CORNER, MR. ZELENSKYY MAY BE RUNNING OUT OF TIME TO ACHIEVE HIS GOALS.

MEANTIME, ON THE BATTLEFIELD, OUTMANNED AND OUTGUNNED, UKRAINE MUST WORK CREATIVELY TO MAKE A DENT IN RUSSIA'S WAR MACHINE.

LONG RANGE DRONES ARE ONE OF THOSE INNOVATIONS.

CORRESPONDENT FRED PLEITGEN WAS GIVEN EXCLUSIVE ACCESS TO ONE TOP SECRET DRONE UNIT.

HE BRINGS US THIS REPORT FROM THE FRONT LINES.

>> Reporter: THE FRONT LINES SOWING PANIC AMONG LOCALS.

RUSSIAN AIR DEFENSES FRANTICALLY TRYING TO TAKE THEM DOWN BEFORE THEY SLAM INTO TARGETS.

THIS MASSIVE DRONE STRIKE CARRIED OUT IN LATE SEPTEMBER BY UKRAINE'S DEFENSE INTELLIGENCE AGENCY, THE GUR.

AND THEY GRANTED CNN UNPRECEDENTED ACCESS TO THE MISSION.

THEIR TARGET, AN AMMO DEPOT.

ALL OF THESE MISSIONS HAVE TO MOVE EXTREMELY QUICKLY, THEY HAVE TO BE VERY PRECISE, BECAUSE IF THEY GET DISCOVERED BY THE RUSSIANS, THE RUSSIANS WANT NOTHING MORE THAN TO KILL EVERYBODY AROUND HERE.

WHEN YOU'RE AS BADLY OUTGUNNED AS THE UKRAINIANS, EVEN THESE BECOME HIT AND RUN OPERATIONS.

THE LAUNCH LOCATION TOTALLY SECRET.

THE MISSION RUN IN NEAR COMPLETE DARKNESS.

WE CAN ONLY IDENTIFY THE UNIT COMMANDER BY HIS CALL SIGN, VECTOR.

HOW FAST DO YOU GUYS HAVE TO BE ABLE TO DO THIS NOW?

>> I HOPE IT WILL BE, 20, 30 MINUTES.

>> Reporter: TELL ME HOW MUCH THE RUSSIANS WANT TO KILL YOU?

>> THEY WANT VERY MUCH, BECAUSE IT IS ONE OF THE MAJOR GOALS FOR THEM.

THIS MOVES THE WAR INSIDE THEIR COUNTRY, AND THEY'RE AFRAID OF THAT.

>> Reporter: AFTER INSTALLING THE WARHEADS AND PUNCHING IN THE FLIGHT PATH, THEY PUSH THE DRONES TO THE TAKEOFF AREA, THE PILOTS GOING THROUGH FINAL CHECKS.

THEN, THEY GET THE GO.

THE LAUNCH IS ALWAYS ONE OF THE MOST DIFFICULT AND MOST SENSITIVE PARTS OF A MISSION.

THEY HAVE TO FOLLOW THE UAV VERY FAST WITH THEIR CARS TO MAKE SURE IT GETS INTO THE AIR ALL RIGHT.

THE DRONES DISAPPEAR QUICKLY INTO THE NIGHT SKY.

THE GUR HAS BEEN BEHIND HUNDREDS OF LONG RANGE MISSIONS INTO RUSSIA, THEY SAY, INCLUDING THIS SEPTEMBER ATTACK ON AN AMMO DEPOT BETWEEN MOSCOW AND ST. PETERSBURG, CAUSING MASSIVE EXPLOSIONS VISIBLE FOR MILES.

THE UKRAINIANS BELIEVE THEY HIT HUNDREDS OF MISSILES AND EXPLOSIVES.

OPERATIONAL SECURITY IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT FOR THIS TEAM, SO, WE'RE ON OUR WAY TO THE NEXT SECRET LOCATION RIGHT NOW, THEY REMAIN ON THE MOVE ALMOST ALL THE TIME.

RIGHT NOW, WE'RE GOING TO A PLACE WHERE THEY'RE GOING TO DO THE DETAILED PLANNING FOR THE NIGHT PATHS AND WE'LL SEE THE ACTUAL DRONES.

THE WEAPONS DEPOT IS ABOUT 400 MILES FROM THE UKRAINIAN BORDER, IN THE SOUTHWESTERN RUSSIAN VILLAGE.

A MAJOR PROBLEM, A MESH OF POWERFUL RUSSIAN AIR DEFENSES GUARDING THE AREA.

HOW GOOD ARE THE RUSSIAN AIR DEFENSES AND HOW DIFFICULT IS IT TO OVERWHELM THEM?

>> UNFORTUNATELY, ESPECIALLY LAST YEAR, IT'S -- IT'S REALLY GOOD, IT'S REALLY GOOD.

BUT MAYBE NOT PERFECT, BECAUSE WE ARE SUCCESSFUL AND WE FIND THE WINDOWS IN THIS TECHNIQUE.

>> Reporter: THESE ARE THE ACTUAL STRIKE DRONES.

THE UKRAINIAN-MADE AN-196, NAMED LUTI.

UKRAINIAN FOR FIERCENESS OR RAGE.

THEY CARRY UP TO 500-POUND WARHEADS AND FLY AROUND 1,300 MILES.

AND THEY FIT INTO THE BACK OF THESE NONDESCRIPT TRAILERS.

THE UKRAINIANS SAY THEY GET GOOD RESULTS WITH THESE DRONES, BUT WHAT THEY REALLY NEED IS PERMISSION TO USE WESTERN-SUPPLIED LONGER DISTANCE WEAPONS.

SO FAR, THE U.S. IS NOT ALLOWING UKRAINE TO FIRE AMERICAN-SUPPLIED WEAPONS DEEP INTO RUSSIA, AS RUSSIA HAS ESCALATED ITS OWN AERIAL ATTACKS AGAINST UKRAINIAN CITIES AND INFRASTRUCTURE USING HEAVY GUIDED GLIDE BOMBS.

CRUISE MISSILES DESIGNED TO TAKE OUT WHOLE AIRCRAFT CARRIER STRIKE GROUPS AND NUCLEAR-CAPABLE STRATEGIC BOMBERS.

ALL THE UKRAINIANS HAVE IS THEIR LITTLE DRONES, LAUNCHING THEM IN SWARMS TO EVEN HAVE A CHANCE TO PENETRATE RUSSIA'S AIR DEFENSES.

THEY BLAST THE UKRAINIAN FOLK SONG "HEY FALCONS" AS THE GUR'S OWN BIRDS TAKE TO THE SKIES.

BACK AT BASE, IT'S CRUNCHTIME.

RUSSIAN SOCIAL MEDIA STARTS EXPLODING WITH REPORTS OF AN ATTACK ON THE WEAPONS DEPOT.

THE GUR OPERATIVES SOMETIMES CHUCKLING AS THEY LISTEN IN.

WHILE THE RUSSIANS CLAIM TO HAVE SHOT DOWN THE DRONES, UKRAINIAN DEFENSE INTELLIGENCE SHOWED CNN THE UNBLURRED VERSION OF THIS VIDEO NOW HEAVILY BLURRED FOR OPERATIONAL SECURITY REASONS, AND IT SHOWS 11 BLASTS COMING FROM THE SAME PLACE THEY SAY SO LARGE THEY'RE CONFIDENT THEIR HIT THEIR TARGETS.

CNN WAS ALSO ABLE TO INDEPENDENTLY VERIFY THROUGH A SOURCE WHAT SEEMS TO BE A DIRECT HIT ON THE FACILITY.

WE'RE NOT PUBLISHING THE IMAGES TO PROTECT THE SOURCE, BUT IT SHOWED AN EXPLOSION AT THE FACILITY AND WHAT SEEMS TO BE WRECKAGE SCATTERED AROUND.

AN IMAGE SHARED WITH CNN SHOWS THE SAME HEAVILY DAMAGED BUILDING WITH SOME DEBRIS ON THE FLOOR, SIGNS THE RUSSIAN MILITARY MAY HAVE CLEANED UP THE SITE.

A SMALL BUT IMPORTANT VICTORY IN THEIR ONGOING COVERT WAR AGAINST A POWERFUL ENEMY.

>> FRED PLEITGEN REPORTING THERE.

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY IS GOING TO PRESENT HIS PLAN TO EUROPEAN LEADERS.

ROSE GOTTEMOELLER HAS BEEN FOLLOWING ALL OF THESE DEVELOPMENTS CLOSELY, AND JOINS US NOW.

SO, IN A RARE APPEARANCE, AS WE NOTED, BEFORE THE UKRAINIAN PARLIAMENT, PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY PRESENTED WHAT HE HAS BEEN TRAVELING THE WORLD PRESENTING TO WESTERN ALLIES, AND THAT IS HIS FIVE-POINT VICTORY PLAN.

KYIV WANTS AN UNCONDITIONAL INVITATION TO NATO.

THAT IS THE BASIC HEADLINE THAT HAS REMAINED CONSTANT LEADING UP TO THE WAR, AND NOW 2 1/2 YEARS LATER.

WE HAVE YET TO HEAR A WESTERN ALLY, SPECIFICALLY THE UNITED STATES, AGREE TO THAT.

DO YOU THINK AT SOME POINT THIS IS A PROVISION THAT PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY IS GOING TO HAVE TO TAKE OUT OF ANY SORT OF DEAL HE AGREES TO?

>> WELL, ZELENSKYY'S A VERY GOOD NEGOTIATOR, SO, HE'S NOT GOING TO GIVE GROUND ON ANY OF THE POINTS ON HIS VICTORY PLAN UNTIL THE NEGOTIATIONS ARE UNDER WAY, AND THE FIRST NEGOTIATIONS, OF COURSE, WILL BE WITH THE NATO ALLIES.

THEY HAVE A DEFENSE MINISTERIAL GOING ON TODAY AND TOMORROW.

IT IS THE NATO UKRAINE COUNCIL MEETING TOMORROW, WHERE ZELENSKYY WILL PRESENT HIS PLAN TO THE ALLIED DEFENSE MINISTERS, SO -- HE'S NOT GOING TO GIVE GROUND ON THIS.

I WILL NOTE THAT AT THE 75th ANNIVERSARY SUMMIT MEETING OF NATO, BACK IN JULY OF THIS YEAR IN WASHINGTON, THAT THE ALLIES SAID THAT UKRAINE IS ON AN IRREVERSIBLE PATH TOWARD NATO MEMBERSHIP, SO THEY'VE INCHED ALONG, AND THEY'VE COME PRETTY FAR IN THIS REGARD.

I THINK WHAT HE WOULD LIKE TO SEE IS AN INVITATION TO ACTUALLY OPEN UP ACCESSION TALKS WITH NATO, WHICH HAS NOT YET OCCURRED.

>> AND DO YOU THINK THAT WILL ULTIMATELY HAPPEN BEFORE ANY DEAL, POTENTIALLY, IS REACHED?

>> I'D LIKE TO NOTE, LOST IN ALL THIS DISCUSSION ABOUT NATO IS THE FACT THAT THE EUROPEAN UNION OPENED UP ITS ACCESSION TALKS BACK IN JUNE, AND THEY ARE QUIETLY AND STEADILY GOING ALONG.

THESE ACCESSION PROCESSES THEMSELVES ARE VERY LONG, BOTH FOR NATO AND FOR THE EUROPEAN UNION.

THE COUNTRIES WHO ARE CANDIDATE MEMBERS HAVE TO WORK THROUGH A HUGE NUMBER OF ISSUES, SO I WILL ACCESSION TALKS WOULD NOT MEAN THAT NATO MEMBERSHIP IS ON THE DOORSTEP, BUT IT WOULD BACK UP WHAT NATO HAS ALREADY SAID, THAT UKRAINE IS ON AN IRREVERSIBLE PATH TOWARD MEMBERSHIP.

>> WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF MARK RUTTE SAYING TODAY THAT HE CAN'T SUPPORT THE WHOLE PLAN ON UKRAINE'S VICTORY PATH, THE WHOLE PLAN ON THIS VICTORY PATH THAT PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY HAS PRESENTED?

HE SAYS SOME ISSUES ARE STILL DIFFICULT.

IS THAT A DISAPPOINTING REACTION, IN YOUR VIEW, OR IS THAT MORE OF AN HONEST ASSESSMENT OF THE SITUATION AS EUROPEAN ALLIES SEE IT?

>> YES, THAT'S A STATEMENT OF REALITY.

THE NATO ALLIANCE WORKS ON A CONSENSUS BASIS, AND CLEARLY, NOT EVERY NATO ALLY IS NOW READY TO SAY THAT UKRAINE SHOULD -- SHOULD JOIN IN ACCESSION TALKS OR RECEIVE SOME KIND OF UNCONDITIONAL INVITATION TO JOIN NATO, EVEN BEFORE THE WAR ENDS.

MANY NATO ALLIES HAVE SAID THEY'D LIKE TO SEE A CONCLUSION OF THE WAR BEFORE NATO CAN EMBRACE UKRAINE IN A MEMBERSHIP PROCESS.

SO, I KNOW THOSE ARE THE KEY ISSUES THAT MARK RUTTE HAS TO WORK THROUGH RIGHT NOW, HE, TOO, IS A VERY GOOD NEGOTIATOR, HE'S NOT GOING TO GIVE GROUND ON HIS ISSUES, AS HE HAS TO WORK THROUGH THEM TO GAIN NATO CONSENSUS.

>> LET ME ASK YOU TO REACT TO WHAT THE CZECH PRESIDENT SAID ABOUT THIS, HE SAID THE UKRAINIANS WILL HAVE TO BE REALISTIC, AS WE'VE JUST DISCUSSED, AND SAID THE MOST PROBABLE OUTCOME OF THE WAR IS PART OF THE UKRAINIAN TERRITORY WILL BE UNDER RUSSIAN OCCUPATION TEMPORARILY.

IS THAT SOMETHING THAT WILL BE PALATABLE TO PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY AND THE UKRAINIAN PARLIAMENT IN GENERAL?

AND WHAT DOES TEMPORARILY EVEN MEAN, AS LONG AS PRESIDENT PUTIN IS IN OFFICE?

>> WELL, ZELENSKYY IS NOT GOING TO GIVE GROUND ON THIS POINT, EITHER, UNTIL PUSHED TO DO SO IN THE COURSE OF NEGOTIATIONS.

HE'S STAKING OUT HIS NEGOTIATING POSITION VERY, VERY CLEARLY.

AND I DO THINK THAT IT IS NECESSARY TO DO SO, SO, I DO NOT QUARREL AT ALL WITH ZELENSKYY AND HIS GOVERNMENT HOLDING THIS POSITION.

PAVEL WAS DISCUSSING, I WOULD SAY, A FUTURE SITUATION THAT MANY EXPERTS AND -- AND GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS THROUGHOUT THE ALLIANCE HAVE BEEN CONSIDERING THE REALITY OF THE SITUATION, BUT NEVERTHELESS, I DO THINK THAT IT'S IMPORTANT FOR THE UKRAINIANS TO HOLD GROUND AND MAKE SURE THAT THEIR POSITION IS WELL UNDERSTOOD, BECAUSE THE PRINCIPLE -- WHATEVER HAPPENS, THE PRINCIPLE OF TERRITORIAL INTEGRITY AND SOVEREIGNTY OF UKRAINE MUST BE UPHELD, EVEN IF WE END UP WITH A DIVISION SUCH AS WE ENDED UP OF GERMANY, AFTER WORLD WAR II, OF THE ALLIES AT THAT TIME, AND THE WEST GERMANS NEVER GAVE UP ON THE PRINCIPLE THAT AT SOME POINT, EAST GERMANY SHOULD BE PART OF GERMANY ONCE AGAIN, AND, INDEED, THAT IS WHAT HAPPENED AT THE END OF THE COLD WAR, SO, THAT PRINCIPLE OF TERRITORIAL INTEGRITY AND SOVEREIGNTY IS ALL IMPORTANT, NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS IN THIS UKRAINE CASE.

>> AND THE KREMLIN, NO SURPRISE, HAS ALREADY RESPONDED TO THIS FIVE-POINT PLAN, SAYING THAT UKRAINE IS PUSHING RUSSIA INTO DIRECT CONFLICT WITH NATO, THIS IS A LINE THAT WE'VE HEARD THROUGHOUT THE COURSE OF THIS WAR, THE LAST 2 1/2 YEARS.

YOU HAVE MET WITH VLADIMIR PUTIN, YOU WERE THE FIRST WOMAN TO NEGOTIATE A NUCLEAR ARMS DEAL WITH RUSSIA.

AS WE'RE ANTICIPATING A U.S. ELECTION HERE AND THE OUTCOME OF WHICH COULD BENEFIT ONE SIDE OF THE OTHER ENORMOUSLY, WHAT DO YOU THINK VLADIMIR PUTIN IS THINKING AT THIS POINT, AS HE'S NOW ALSO SUFFERING GREAT LOSSES ON THE BATTLEFIELD AND THE WAR, THUS FAR, HASN'T BEEN GOING TO PLAN AS HE'D ENVISIONED IT, EITHER?

>> RIGHT.

I NEED TO BE CLEAR AT THE OUTSET THAT I WAS THE LOWLY NE GAUCHE YEAHER TO.

PUTIN'S COUNTERPART AT THE TABLE, HE WAS NOT PRESIDENT, HE WAS PRIME MINISTER AT THAT POINT, AND SO, PRESIDENT OBAMA WAS NEGOTIATING WITH, AT THAT POINT, PRESIDENT MEDVEDEV, SO, AND I WAS THE LOWLY NEGOTIATOR, SO, I WAS NOT DOING THE NEGOTIATING, BUT I WILL STRESS THAT I HAVE BEEN IN THE ROOM WITH PUTIN, I'VE OBSERVED HIM MANY TIMES.

HE KEEPS HIS CARDS CLOSE TO HIS CHEST.

HE'S NOT GOING TO GIVE GROUND, EITHER, WHICH IS THAT ESSENTIALLY -- THAT THE FOUR TERRITORIES OF UKRAINE IN THE EASTERN DONBAS AND ALSO CRIMEA ARE NOW PART OF RUSSIA, PERIOD.

SO, HE'S NOT GOING TO GIVE GROUND ON THAT, EITHER.

BUT YOU'RE QUITE RIGHT THAT HE'S IN A DIRE SITUATION ECONOMICALLY.

ECONOMIC EXPERTS IN THE WEST ARE PRETTY CLEAR THAT 2025 IS A KEY YEAR FOR RUSSIA, BECAUSE INFLATION IS SPIRALING, HE'S FORCED THE ECONOMY INTO A DEFENSE STATUS, BUT THAT MEANS THAT EVERYTHING IS DEVOTEDED TO CHURNING OUT WEAPONS SYSTEMS, VERY EFFECTIVELY, CERTAINLY, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, HE IS FACING AN ECONOMY THAT IS STARTING TO FALTER, SO, 2025 COULD BE AN URGENT YEAR FOR HIM, TOO, TO GET SOMETHING DONE AT THE NEGOTIATING TABLE.

>> MICHAEL KAUFMAN AT THE CARNEGIE ENDOWMENT HAS A NEW PAPER OUT ASSESSING RUSSIAN MILITARY ADAPTATION IN THE LAST YEAR, IN 2023, AND HE CONCLUDES THIS, QUOTE, RUSSIAN FORCES PROVED MORE FLEXIBLE AND EFFECTIVE IN THE CONDUCT OF DEFENSIVE OPERATIONS IN 2023, YET INCREMENTAL RUSSIAN GAINS CAME AT A HIGH COST WITH RUSSIAN FORCES PROVING UNABLE TO ATTAIN OPERATIONALLY SIGNIFICANT BREAKTHROUGHS WHEN POSSESSING QUANTITATIVE ADVANTAGES IN MANPOWER AND MUNITIONS.

BASICALLY SUGGEST WHAT WE'VE BEEN HEARING FROM MILITARY ANALYSTS HERE IN THE U.S., RUSSIA CONTINUES TO MAKE INCREMENTAL GAINS IN THE DONBAS, BUT IT COMES AT A VERY HIGH COST.

AS WE'RE APPROACHING NOW SADLY THE THIRD YEAR OF THIS WAR, WHAT, IF ANYTHING, CAN UKRAINE DO, GIVEN ITS DISADVANTAGES TO -- TO COUNTER THE DIRECTION THIS BATTLE IS GOING ON AT THIS RATE?

>> THE UKRAINIANS, I'M REALLY GLAD YOU RAN THAT -- THAT CLIP TO BEGIN WITH, YOUR CORRESPONDENT DID A GREAT JOB CAPTURING THE AMOUNT OF TECHNOLOGICAL INNOVATION THAT THE UKRAINIANS HAVE BEEN ABLE TO PUSH INTO THEIR MISSILE FORCES.

THEY ARE GREAT INNOVATORS IN THIS REGARD.

THEY'RE EXPERIENCED MISSILEERS, ANYWAY.

THEY BUILT THE SOVIET INTERCONTINENTAL BALLISTIC MISSILES.

THEY KNOW ABOUT MISSILES.

THEY'VE DONE A GREAT JOB TAKING THAT EXPERIENCE AND EXTENDING IT EVEN DOWN TO THE SMALL DRONES THAT THEY'RE DEPLOYING NOW AND USING IN SWARMS.

AND THEY'RE TAKING EVERY ADVANTAGE OF NEW DEVELOPMENT SUCH AS ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE TO ENSURE THAT THEY ARE TARGETING THOSE SWARMS IN AN ACCURATE AND DEADLY MANNER, AS THE CLIPS SHOWED.

SO, I DO THINK THAT IT'S IMPORTANT TO GIVE THEM FULL CREDIT FOR INNOVATION IN A WARTIME SETTING THAT IS ALSO SERVING AS A GREAT, I WOULD SAY, LEARNING GROUND FOR THE NATO ALLIES AS THEY SEE WHAT IS HAPPENING WITH -- WITH THE ADVENT OF THESE MAJOR DRONE STRIKES.

SO, THAT'S ONE POINT I'D LIKE TO STRESS.

THE OTHER IS THAT THE RUSSIANS HAVE NO COME PUNG SHUN ABOUT THROWING YOUNG MEN, AND I WILL STRESS YOUNG MEN, THEY DON'T HAVE WOMEN SERVING IN THEIR ARMED FORCES MUCH, BUT THEY'RE THROWING THEIR YOUNG MEN AT THIS WAR IN THE TRADITIONAL SOVIET WAY OF CANNON FODDER, AND GRINDING, GRINDING UP A LOT OF YOUNG LIVES IN THAT WAY, SO -- THEY DON'T SEEM TO HAVE ANY -- ANY PROBLEM WITH DOING THAT, BUT IT DOES SHOW THAT DESPITE SOME TECHNOLOGICAL INNOVATION ON THE RUSSIAN SIDE, AS WELL, THEY ARE FAR BEHIND IN THINKING ABOUT HOW BEST TO PROSECUTE THE WAR WHILE PRESERVING HUMAN LIFE.

>> AND JUST SO IN A NUMBERS GAME, RUSSIA HAS AN ADVANTAGE, THOUGH THIS IS AN ISSUE THEY'RE GOING TO BE FACING IMMINENTLY, AS WELL.

YOU MENTIONED YOUNG MEN.

THEY'RE RUNNING OUT OF YOUNG MEN.

THERE ARE NOT SO YOUNG MEN THAT ARE FIGHTING, AS WELL, AND THEY, TOO, WILL HAVE A MANPOWER ISSUE, UKRAINE HAS BEEN EXPERIENCING ONE MUCH SOONER.

I NOTED WITH PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY MAKING A RARE APPEARANCE BEFORE PARLIAMENT, THIS FIVE-POINT PLAN WASN'T VERY WELL RECEIVED AMONG THOSE EVEN WITHIN UKRAINE.

THEY THINK IT'S TOO OPTIMISTIC, RELYING TOO HEAVILY ON THE WEST, AND EVEN THE PARTY OPPOSITION MEMBERS ARE SPEAKING OUT ABOUT IT, SAYING THAT THIS ISN'T SOMETHING THAT -- THAT'S SUBSTANTIAL ENOUGH AT THIS POINT.

YOU ADD TO THAT THE TOLL THAT THIS HAS TAKEN ON THE COUNTRY ECONOMICALLY, SO MANY PEOPLE HAVE LEFT THE COUNTRY, JUST -- THE SHEER MANPOWER ISSUE, AS WE NOTED.

I'D LIKE TO PLAY FOR YOU SOUND FROM UKRAINIANS IN RESPONSE TO WHAT WE HEARD FROM PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY.

>> Translator: I DON'T KNOW THE WAY OUT OF IT.

THE WAR IS IN STALEMATE.

THERE IS NO INTO IT.

THERE ARE NO BOYS LEFT.

>> Translator: TO BE HONEST, I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT THIS VICTORY PLAN WILL GET US CLOSER TO THE VICTORY ANY TIME SOON.

EVERYTHING DEPENDS ON OUR SOLDIERS THAT ARE CRAFTING THIS VICTORY.

AND MAKING TITANIC EFFORTS TO MAKE THE VICTORY CLOSER.

>> WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT?

I MEAN, I GUESS IT'S NO SURPRISE, SO LONG INTO A WAR THAT HAS BEEN SO GRUELING FOR UKRAINIANS WHO HAVE BEEN HEROIC FOR LACK OF A BETTER WORD, IN TERMS OF HOW THEY'VE HANDLED THIS BATTLE THUS FAR.

ALL WARS COME TO AN END.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF WHAT YOU'RE HEARING FROM SOME OF THESE UKRAINIANS ABOUT HOW THEY'D LIKE TO SEE THAT SOONER RATHER THAN LATER.

>> HONESTLY, IT'S REFRESHING TO HEAR FROM THE UKRAINIANS.

THEY WELL UNDERSTAND THE SITUATION ON THE GROUND.

THEY UNDERSTAND THE STALEMATE PROBLEM FOR UKRAINE.

AND THAT'S VERY DIFFERENT FROM THE RUSSIAN POPULATION, THAT IS NOT GETTING THE RIGHT NEWS, EXCEPT AS THEY HEAR IT ON TELEGRAM AND OTHER SOCIAL MEDIA CHANNELS.

SO, I THINK IT'S REFRESHING THAT THE UKRAINIANS THAT WERE INTERVIEWED SEEM TO UNDERSTAND EXACTLY THE SITUATION THEIR COUNTRY IS IN, AND THAT JUST SPEAKS A REALISM IN THE POPULATION THAT -- THAT WILL, I THINK, AT THE END OF THE DAY, BE A GOOD SUPPORT FOR ANY PEACE PROCESS THAT GOES FORWARD.

BUT I DON'T HEAR IN ANYTHING YOU PLAYED, AT LEAST AMONG THE TWO THAT -- THAT THEY'RE READY TO GIVE UP.

AND I THINK THAT'S THE MOST IMPORTANT THING.

IT IS A BURDEN ON SOCIETY.

IT'S A WEARYING BURDEN ON UKRAINIAN SOCIETY, BUT I THINK AS FAR AS I CAN TELL, FROM ALL THE SOURCES I READ, THEY ARE STAUNCHLY CONTINUING TO SUPPORT PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY AND HIS GOVERNMENT.

>> ALL RIGHT.

ROSE GOTTEMOELLER, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

APPRECIATE IT.

>> MY PLEASURE.

>>> NOW, TO A LIGHTER STORY.

CELEBRATING WOMEN IN MUSIC.

TURNING THE TABLES LAUNCHED BY NPR MUSIC IN 2017 STARTLED AS A LIST CELEBRATING THE INDUSTRY'S GREATEST WOMEN AND NONBINARY ARTISTS AND THEIR SIGNIFICANT CONTRIBUTION TO POPULAR CALL SURE.

THINK ELLA FITZGERALD, DOLLY PARTON, AND BEYONCE.

NOW, CONTINUING THAT JOURNEY OF RECOGNITION, NPR HAS PUBLISHED HOW WOMEN MADE MUSIC, AN ANTHOLOGY OF INTERVIEWS AND ESSAYS FROM THEIR ARCHIVES.

I'M JOINED NOW BY ANN POWERS, AUTHOR AND COCREATOR OF TURNING THE TABLES TO DISCUSS THE IMPORTANCE OF THIS PROJECT.

ANN, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

CONGRATULATIONS ON THIS PROJECT AND WHAT IT'S TURNED OUT TO BE.

AND LET'S START THERE, BECAUSE THIS NEW BOOK, HOW WOMEN MADE MUSIC, AS WE NOTE WAS INSPIRED BY TURNING THE TABLES, AND THAT CAME ABOUT THROUGH A CONVERSATION YOU HAD WITH YOUR EDITOR, TEN YEARS AGO.

TELL US ABOUT THAT CONVERSATION.

>> ACTUALLY, IT WAS A CONVERSATION WE HAD -- I HAD WITH A COUPLE OF WOMEN FRIENDS IN THE PARKING LOT AFTER A SHOW THAT WE SAW IN NEW ORLEANS.

TYPICAL CONVERSATION AMONG WOMEN THAT TURNS INTO SOMETHING REALLY IMPORTANT, EVEN THOUGH IT FELT LIKE JUST CHAT AT THE TIME, YOU KNOW HOW THAT HAPPENS?

>> EXACTLY.

DO YOU REMEMBER THE SHOW?

>> WE HAD JUST -- YEAH, IT WAS -- A GUITARIST NAMED BARBARA LYNN.

>> SHE'S NOW IN HER 80s, AND SHE'S A REALLY IMPORTANT PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF ELECTRIC GUITAR, LEFT-HANDED GUITARIST, HAD SOME HITS IN THE EARLY '60s, AND WE WERE DISCUSSING IN THOSE LISTS THAT YOU SEE OF, YOU KNOW, GREATEST GUITAR PLAYERS, YOU NEVER SEE HER NAME, AND THAT BALLOONED INTO A CONVERSATION ABOUT OUR OTHER FAVORITE WOMEN ARTISTS AND HOW THEY DIDN'T MAKE THE BEST LISTS, OR THEY WERE, YOU KNOW, DESIGNATED TO NUMBER 28 OR MAYBE IF THEY WERE REALLY GREAT, LIKE ARETHA FRANKLIN, THEY WOULD INCH UP TO NUMBER SEVEN OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

AND WE WONDERED WHAT IT WOULD TAKE FOR THE WORLD TO SEE POPULAR MUSIC REALLY THROUGH THE EXPERIENCE OF WOMEN, AND FINALLY, WE CONCLUDED, WE JUST NEEDED TO FOCUS ON WOMEN ENTIRELY, JUST PUT THE GUYS OUT IN THE YARD FOR A LITTLE BIT, AND JUST TALK ABOUT THE WOMEN, YOU KNOW?

>> EXACTLY.

AND SO, ONE OF THE FIRST THINGS YOU DID, IN TURNS THE TABLES, IS POST AN ONLINE LIST OF THE TOP 150 GREATEST ALBUMS MADE BY WOMEN, IT WENT VIRAL IN 2017.

THE TOP FIVE ALBUMS INCLUDE JONI MITCHELL AT NUMBER ONE WITH HER ALBUM BLUE.

LAUREN HILL, I HAVE TO SAY RIGHT NOW, THAT IS MY FAVORITE ABOUT BULL OF ALL TIME.

NINA SIMONE, ARETHA FRANKLIN, MISSY ELLIOTT, THAT WAS 1997.

AND BEYONCE'S LEMONADE WAS NUMBER SIX.

THESE ARTISTS APPEAR TO BE ALL HOUSEHOLD NAMES.

DID ANYTHING SURPRISE YOU IN TERMS OF THE ORDER OF THE LIST HERE?

>> WHAT SURPRISED AND DELIGHTED US ABOUT THE TOP FIVE AND THE LIST WAS THE INTERGENERATIONAL NATURE OF IT, YOU KNOW?

THE FACT THAT WE HAD GREATS FROM THE CLASSIC ERA OF ROCK AND SOUL, AND THEN WE ALSO HAD, YOU KNOW, YOUR '90s HEROES, WE HAD LAUREN HILL, WE HAD MISSY ELLIOTT, AND ALSO, THAT IT WAS, YOU KNOW, A PRETTY EQUAL MIX OF BLACK AND WHITE ARTISTS, ARTISTS, YOU KNOW, ACROSS GENRES, WE WERE VERY HAPPY ABOUT THAT.

BUT MOST OF ALL, IT WAS THE INTERGENERATIONAL CONVERSATION WE WANTED TO START.

>> YEAH, AND THE DIVERSITY OF THE LIST ALSO STANDS OUT, AS WELL.

AND AS YOU NOTED, THE GENERATIONAL DIFFERENCES AND THE FACT THAT -- LET'S GO BACK TO NUMBER ONE, AND JONI MITCHELL, AND LOOK AT THAT SMILE ON YOUR FACE.

YOU WROTE, AFTER NEARLY A 50 YEARS, "BLUE" IS THE MOST ANIMATED MUSICAL MAP.

SOMETIMES INVISIBLY IN THEIR DAILY LIVES, IN THE AFTERMATH OF THE UTOPIAN DREAM-CRUSHING 1960s.

YOU RECENTLY PUBLISHED A BIOGRAPHY OF JONI MITCHELL CALLED "TRAVELING."

TALK TO US ABOUT HER INFLUENCE ON MUSIC, THE GENRE, AND YOU.

>> WELL, IT'S -- JONI MITCHELL'S INFLUENCE ON MUSIC CANNOT BE UNDERESTIMATED.

SHE'S PROBABLY -- I'M GOING TO SAY, SHE'S THE GREATEST LEER CYST THAT THE 20th CENTURY PRODUCED, SORRY BOB DYLAN, YOU'RE GREAT, TOO, BUT -- BUT I THINK SHE'S THE GREATEST.

I ALSO THINK JONI'S MUSIC, YOU KNOW, IT BECAME A MIRROR FOR SO MANY DIFFERENT KINDS OF PEOPLE, NOT JUST WOMEN, MEN, TOO.

SELF-INQUIRY, THE INQUIRY INTO HER OWN EXPERIENCES AND PSYCHOLOGICAL PROCESSES, INTO A LARGER INQUIRY THAT FEELS UNIVERSAL, IS SO IMPORTANT.

HER STORY IS KIND OF THE STORY OF -- OF WOMEN'S MOBILITY AND MOBILITY IN GENERAL OF THE QUEST FOR FREEDOM AT THE SAME TIME THAT YOU'RE SEEKING LOVE.

ALSO, MUSICALLY, SHE'S SO ADVENTUROUS.

BLUE IS A STRIPPED DOWN KIND OF FOLKISH ALBUM, PEOPLE CONSIDER IT FOLK, BUT I THINK IT'S MUCH MORE BASED IN MILES DAVIS, SHE'S A HUGE JAZZ FAN.

SHE WOULD MAKE JAZZ RECORDS, ONE OF THE GREATEST ALBUMS OF THE '70s.

>> YOU ACTUALLY THAT IS BETTER THAN BLUE?

>> WELL, OKAY, I'M SURE YOU HAVE THIS WITH YOUR FAVORITE ARTIST.

MY FAVE ARE ALBUM CHANGES ALL THE TIME WITH JONI.

I DO THINK IT'S SUCH AN ACHIEVEMENT, IT'S -- HER LEADING A BAND, IT'S HER REALLY CAPTURE WHAT THE INSIDE OF HER MIND SOUNDS LIKE.

AND IT CREATED NEW STYLES OF MAKING MUSIC IN A WAY THAT BLUE -- BLUE DID, TOO, BUT BLUE HAS MORE STYLISTIC PEERS, WHERE THIS DOESN'T HAVE VERY MY STYLE LISTIC PEERS.

>> LET'S PLAY A CLIP OF JONI MITCHELL SINGING "COYOTE."

♪ NO REGRETS COYOTE ♪ ♪ WE JUST COME FROM SUCH DIFFERENT SETS OF CIRCUMSTANCES ♪ ♪ I'M UP ALL NIGHT ALL STUDIOS ♪ ♪ AND YOU'RE UP EARLY ON YOUR RANCH ♪ >> THAT WAS FROM THE NETFLIX FILM "ROLLING THUNDER REVIEW."

HOW OFTEN DO YOU LISTEN TO JONI MITCHELL?

>> OH, WOW.

PROBABLY A LITTLE BIT EVERY DAY, YOU KNOW, IT COMES UP.

I HAVE TO TURN IT ON FOR -- FOR A FEW MINUTES.

CERTAINLY WHEN I WAS WRITING THE BOOK "TRAVELING," I WAS IMMERSED IN HER MUSIC.

ALSO, I'M JUST GOING TO SAY, I HEAR SO MANY ECHOES OF JONI MITCHELL IN ARTISTS WHO ARE, YOU KNOW, FEATURED IN HOW WOMEN MADE MUSIC, AS WELL, SO, I FEEL LIKE I'M ALWAYS LISTENING TO HER, EVEN WHEN I'M NOT LISTENING TO HER.

>> WHAT WAS IT LIKE GOING THROUGH THE ARCHIVES AS YOU WERE WORKING ON THIS BOOK?

>> YES, WELL, THE ESSAYS ARE -- ARE ALL FROM OUR SERIES TURNING THE TABLES, SO, THOSE ARE MORE RECENT, BUT THE INTERVIEWS WITH ARTISTS, THOSE ARE FROM 50-PLUS YEARS OF NPR, AND I HAVE TO GIVE CREDIT TO THE BOOK'S EDITOR, WHO IS ONE OF THE THREE WOMEN I MENTIONED WHO WAS AT THAT SHOW WHERE WE FIRST THOUGHT OF THE IDEA OF TURNING THE TABLES, AND SHE WOULD GO DEEPLY INTO THE AIR KOOIFS AND THEN BRING THINGS BACK TO ME, AND I WAS SO DELIGHTED WITH WHAT SHE WAS FINDING, BECAUSE WHAT WE WERE FINDING THAT INTERVIEWS WITH PEOPLE LIKE ARETHA FRANKLIN, TAMMY WYNETTE, THEY WERE AS RELEVANT TODAY TO WHEN THEY WERE DONE BACK IN THE '70s, SAY, OR THE '80s, AND REALLY SO MUCH HAS CHANGED, BUT THEN, SO MUCH STAYS THE SAME.

THAT'S JUST THE NATURE OF CULTURE, AND THE NATURE OF WOMEN'S EXPERIENCE, AS WELL.

>> DO YOU NOTICE A BIT OF THAT, THAT THEME CONTINUING IN SOME OF THE NEWER ARTISTS TODAY, I'LL ASK YOU ABOUT CHAPEL ROAN?

>> YEAH.

I LOVE HER, AND I'M SO EXCITED TO SEEING HER HAVING THIS HUGE BREAKTHROUGH.

AND I THINK THE REASON FOR THE BREAKTHROUGH, IT'S THE SAME THING, THAT, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE LOVED ABOUT MADONNA WHEN SHE BROKE THROUGH.

THERE'S A SENSE OF SELF-DETERMINATION, OF DEFIANCE, BUT ALSO OF JOY.

SO MUCH JOY AND SO MUCH PLEASURE IN HER MUSIC.

SHE'S SPEAKING FOR QUEER PEOPLE, FOR YOUNG PEOPLE, BUT SHE ALSO SPEAKS THIS KIND OF DELIGHT AND EXCITEMENT AND HIGH EMOTION THAT I THINK ANY OF US CAN RELATE TO AT ANY AGE.

>> SOMETHING YOU SAID IN A RECENT INTERVIEW REALLY STOOD OUT TO ME, YOU MENTIONED MADONNA, AND THE SHOCK VALUE OF "LIKE A PRAYER," RIGHT?

AND THE MUSIC VIDEO AND HER PERFORMANCE AT THE TIME THAT TODAY WOULD JUST BE SORT OF MAINSTREAM, AND YOU SAID, THE DISRUPTOR IN THE MOMENT IS THE STANDARD BEARER IN THE FUTURE.

TALK TO US ABOUT THAT.

>> ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

AND -- I THINK -- I THINK THAT'S TRUE IN TERMS OF PERFORMANCE, AS YOU SAID, WHEN MADONNA DONNED A WEDDING GOWN AND WRITHES AROUND ON THE FLOOR AT THE MTV VIDEO MUSIC AWARDS, IT WAS SHOCKING TO PEOPLE.

AND NOW HER CHOREOGRAPHY OFTEN FEELS KIND OF, LIKE, THE FOUNDATION THAT SO MUCH ELSE IS BUILT ON.

BUT I WANT TO SAY THIS IS ALSO TRUE SONICALLY, YOU KNOW, THINK ABOUT HIP HOP AND HOW HIP HOP HAS EVOLVED, AND HOW WHEN HIP HOP FIRST EMERGED AS A FORM, IT WAS SUCH A CHALLENGE TO KIND OF -- THE EARS OF PEOPLE WHO WERE USED TO ROCK AND SOUL AND R&B, THAT, YOU KNOW, SOME PEOPLE DIDN'T EVEN THINK IT WAS MUSIC, THOSE PEOPLE WERE COMPLETELY WRONG, OBVIOUSLY.

AND NOW, HIP HOP IS THE FOUNDATION.

HIP HOP HAS REALLY REPLACED ROCK AS THE FOUNDATIONAL SOUND BED OF MUSIC.

IT'S EVERYWHERE.

AND THAT'S JUST HOW THINGS, AGAIN, YOU KNOW, HOW THINGS EVOLVE AS -- AS MUSIC, AS NEW TECHNOLOGY BRINGS MUSIC INTO THE FUTURE.

>> WHEN YOU PUT THESE LISTS TOGETHER, I MEAN, IT'S -- IT REALLY IS JUST ALL SUBJECTIVE, RIGHT?

I'M JUST WONDERING, AT LEAST FROM THE TOP FIVE LISTS, ARE YOU SURPRISED, MAYBE I WAS A BIT SURPRISED, THAT -- TO NOT SEE TRACY CHAPMAN AS ONE OF THE TOP FIVE WOMEN.

>> OH, IT'S VERY INTERESTING THAT YOU BRING UP HER AND -- IN PARTICULAR.

SO, I THINK THIS IS A LOT ABOUT HOW LEGACIES GET BUILT, HOW THEY GROW.

THERE ARE MOMENTS WHEN ARTISTS WHO ARE SO IMPORTANT, WHO MAYBE WERE SO REVOLUTIONARY IN THEIR MOMENT, BUT MAYBE RECEDED A BIT IN THE CULTURAL CONVERSATION.

THERE ARE MOMENTS WHEN THEY RETURN, AND TRACY CHAPMAN'S MOMENT WAS NOT LONG AGO, PARTLY BECAUSE THE COUNTRY ARTIST LUKE COMBS HAD A HUGE HIT WITH HIS COVER OF HER SONG "FAST CAR."

AND I HAVE TO CREDIT LUKE COMBS, BECAUSE HE SAID, FROM THE BEGINNING, HE WAS A GREAT FAN OF HERS AND WHEN HE PERFORMED WITH HER ON THE GRAMMYS AND SHE WAS THERE, THERE WAS JUST THIS EXCITEMENT OF HER RETURN AND THIS KIND OF -- WE REALIZED THERE WAS A TRACY CHAPMAN-SIZED HOLE IN OUR HEARTS, AND IN OUR CULTURE, AND WE NEEDED HER TO COME BACK AND FILL IT.

BUT THOSE MOMENTS HAPPEN NOT WHEN YOU LEAST EXPECT THEM, BUT YOU CAN'T NECESSARILY PREDICT WHEN THEY HAPPEN.

SO, TRACY CHAPMAN IS SO FOUNDATIONAL, AND WE RECOGNIZE THAT NOW, BUT EVEN FIVE YEARS AGO, I THINK, OF COURSE, SHE IS ON OUR LIST AND THERE'S A BEAUTIFUL ESSAY, BY THE WAY, BY FRANCESCA ROYSTER ABOUT HOW TRACY CHAPMAN'S MUSIC HELPED HER UNDERSTAND HER OWN SELF, YOU KNOW, AS A YOUNG, QUEER, BLACK WOMAN.

SO, HER IMPORTANCE WAS ALWAYS THERE, BUT NOW WE'RE FEELING IT AGAIN.

>> YEAH.

IT'S -- I HAVE TO SAY, I'M SO HAPPY THAT WE ALL ARE, AND THAT A NEW GENERATION -- >> YES.

>> GETS TO LISTEN TO HER POWERFUL VOICE.

AND APPRECIATE HER SUBTLETY, AS WELL, IN HER PERFORMANCE.

ANN POWERS, THIS WAS SO FUN.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING THE PROGRAM, REALLY APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANKS SO MUCH, AND I HOPE PEOPLE REALLY DELVE INTO THIS BOOK.

IT'S A TREASURE TROVE.

>> I REALLY HOPE THEY DO, AS WELL.

>>> WELL, NOW, AS AMERICANS GEAR UP FOR THE ELECTION, OUR NEXT GUEST WARNS OF AN EPIDEMIC OF LYING IN U.S.

POLITICS.

PARTICULARLY WITHIN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

BILL ADAIR JOINS MICHEL MARTIN TO DISCUSS HIS NEW BOOK, "BEYOND THE BIG LIE," AS FOUNDER OF POLITIFACT.

HE IS WELL PLACED TO ACCOUNT FOR MANY DISINFORMATION COMES FROM, HOW IT SPREADS, AND THE DANGER THAT IT POSES TO DEMOCRACY.

>> THANKS, BIANNA.

BILL ADAIR, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> PEOPLE WHO FOLLOW POLITICS MAY KNOW YOU, BECAUSE YOU'VE BEEN AROUND SINCE -- WELL, YOU'VE BEEN AROUND FOR AWHILE, YOU WERE IN NEWSPAPERS BEFORE, BUT YOU FOUNDED POLITIFACT IN 2007.

JUST, IF YOU WOULD JUST TELL THE STORY OF WHY YOU DECIDED TO START THIS, LIKE, HOW DID THE WHOLE THING START?

>> SO, I STARTED POLITIFACT IN 2007 WHEN I WAS THE WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF FOR "THE ST. PETERSBURG TIMES," THE BIGGEST NEWSPAPER IN FLORIDA, AND NOW "THE TAMPA BAY TIMES," BUT THE ROOTS OF IT REALLY GO BACK FARTHER TO WHEN I WAS COVERING THE WHITE HOUSE AND CONGRESS, AND POLITIFACT SORT OF GREW OUT OF MY OWN GUILT, BECAUSE I FELT LIKE, AS A WASHINGTON REPORTER, AND AS A POLITICAL REPORTER, I WAS NOT DOING MUCH FACT-CHECKING, AND I FELT LIKE WE NEEDED TO DO THAT.

SO, IF YOU THINK ABOUT THAT TIME PERIOD, 2003, 2004, 2005, THERE WERE -- THE INTERNET WAS JUST KIND OF GETTING GOING AS A SOURCE OF INFORMATION AND MISINFORMATION, AND THERE WAS -- THERE WERE A LOT OF THINGS THAT PEOPLE WERE WONDERING, IS THAT TRUE?

SO, I WENT TO MY EDITORS AND SAID, HEY, FOR THE 2008 ELECTION, LET'S START A FACT-CHECKING WEBSITE, AND SO THEY AGREED TO THAT.

WHAT WAS DIFFERENT WITH POLITIFACT IS THAT THERE HAD BEEN OTHER GOOD FACT-CHECKING EFFORTS, MOST NOTABLY FACTCHECK.ORG FROM THE UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA.

WHAT WE DID DIFFERENTLY IS, WE CREATED A RATING SYSTEM ON OUR TRUTH-O-METER, FROM TRUE TO FALSE, WITH OUR LOWEST RATING, PANTS ON FIRE.

AND WE ALSO KEPT SCORE BY PERSON, SO, WE COULD TELL YOU HOW MANY TRUE, HALF TRUE, FALSE RATINGS ANY PARTICULAR POLITICIAN HAD.

SO, THAT WAS THE INNOVATION.

>> WE'RE GOING TO GET TO THE QUESTION OF WHY THIS MATTERS, BUT FOR NOW, I -- THERE ARE A THAT YOU POINT OUT IN THE BOOK, AND YOU CAN EXPLAIN ALL OF THESE.

THE FIRST IS, YOU SAY THAT IT'S AN EPIDEMIC.

WHY DO YOU SAY THAT?

>> WHAT'S DIFFERENT NOW IS THAT -- EVERYONE CAN JOIN IN ON THE LYING.

IT USED TO BE HARDER TO GET A MASS AUDIENCE.

YOU HAD TO STAND AT A MICROPHONE, YOU KNOW, YOU HAD TO GO ON TELEVISION, YOU HAD TO GO ON THE RADIO.

AND NOW ANYONE CAN GET A MASS AUDIENCE WITH A QUIRKY MESSAGE, A VIRAL VIDEO SO, THAT CAN MAKE LIES SPREAD SO FAST.

SO, THAT REALLY HAS MADE IT AN EPIDEMIC.

>> THE OTHER THING YOU SAY IN THE BOOK, AND THIS IS SOMETHING THAT OBVIOUSLY WE'RE SEEING PLAY OUT RIGHT NOW IN THE CURRENT ELECTION SEASON, YOU SAY, REPUBLICANS DO IT MORE.

WHY IS THAT?

>> SO, THAT HAS BEEN APPARENT TO ME REALLY BEFORE I STARTED POLITIFACT.

WHEN I WAS STARTING CONGRESS, I REMEMBER THINKING, YOU KNOW, THERE'S JUST A LOT MORE -- AT THE TIME, STRETCHING THE TRUTH, AND LYING, COMING FROM REPUBLICANS.

I COVERED THE CAPITOL AND WHATEVER THE ISSUE WAS, I WOULD JUST FIND THAT REPUBLICANS TOOK MORE LIBERTIES.

AND THEN, WHEN I BECAME EDITOR OF POLITIFACT AND WE STARTED POLITIFACT IN 2007, WE REALLY SAW IT FIRST-HAND.

AND IF YOU THINK ABOUT THE 2008 PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN, THAT WAS SARAH PALIN, IT WAS JOE THE PLUMBER, THEN CAME OBAMACARE AND ALL THE LIES ABOUT OBAMACARE.

AND SO, FOR THE FIRST FEW YEARS THAT WE WERE DOING THIS, IT WAS REALLY CLEAR THAT THERE WAS MORE LYING FROM THE RIGHT.

NOW, FOR THE BOOK, TO BACK UP MY OBSERVATIONS AND MY INTERVIEWS, WE ALSO DID SOME STATISTICAL ANALYSIS OF FACT CHECKS FROM POLITIFACT AND "THE WASHINGTON POST" FACT CHECKER, AND TO BE DOUBLY SURE, WE REMOVED THE BIGGEST LIE YARD, DONALD TRUMP, AND THERE WERE STILL FAR MORE LIES FROM REPUBLICANS THAN DEMOCRATS.

SO, I DON'T THINK THERE'S ANY QUESTION THAT THAT PATTERN WAS TRUE, AND IS PARTICULARLY TRUE NOW.

>> SO, YOU'VE TOLD US THE WHAT, BUT WHAT ABOUT THE WHY?

LIKE, WHY WOULD IT BE THAT REPUBLICANS/CONSERVATIVES TELL MORE POLITICAL LIES?

>> SO, I ASKED THAT QUESTION TO MANY FORMER REPUBLICANS, SOME CURRENT REPUBLICANS, POLITICAL OPERATIVES, ELECTED OFFICIALS, AND I GOT SOME COMMON ANSWERS.

SO, FIRST, ONE WAS HISTORICAL.

A LOT OF THEM PUT THE TURNING POINT IN THE EARLY 1990s WHEN NEWT GINGRICH TOOK OVER THE HOUSE REPUBLICANS.

THAT CHANGED THE CULTURE OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, THEY SAY, BECAUSE IT -- IT ESTABLISHED A CULTURE THAT SAYS, ANYTHING GOES.

IF YOU WANT TO WIN, YOU CAN -- YOU KNOW, YOU CAN THROW SOME ELBOWS, YOU CAN LIE.

WHAT MATTERS IS WINNING.

ALONG THOSE LINES, DENVER RIGGLEMAN, REPUBLICAN CONGRESSMAN FROM VIRGINIA WHO SERVED ONE TERM, PUT IT TO ME THIS WAY, HE SAID, THAT MANY REPUBLICANS SEE THEIR WORK AS PART OF THIS EPIC BATTLE, AND IN THAT, IT IS SUCH AN IMPORTANT CAUSE TO THEM THAT THEY REALLY BELIEVE THAT LYING IS JUSTIFIED IN THAT -- IN THAT EPIC BATTLE.

AND THEN, THE OTHER THING YOU NEED TO ADD INTO IT IS, MEDIA ECOSYSTEM IN -- ON THE RIGHT, FOX NEWS, TALK RADIO, THAT NOT ONLY DOESN'T QUESTION THE LIES FROM REPUBLICANS, BUT ECHOES THEM, AND EVEN PROFITS FROM THEM.

SO, PUT ALL THOSE THINGS TOGETHER, AND IT REALLY HAS BEEN ESTABLISHED THAT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY JUST ACCEPTS LYING AS PART OF ITS CULTURE.

>> I'M THINKING ABOUT THIS -- SOMETHING THAT IS IN THE NEWS AT THE MOMENT, WHERE THE REPUBLICAN NOMINEE DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT, SAID THAT HAITIAN MIGRANTS TO A CERTAIN TOWN WERE EATING PEOPLE'S PETS.

AND THIS ALL CAME FROM SOME KIND OF POST ON SOCIAL MEDIA, AND THEN -- THE ORIGINAL PERSON WHO POSTED THIS SAID SHE DIDN'T -- SHE ACKNOWLEDGED LATER, SHE DIDN'T -- SHE HAD NO BASIS FOR THIS, SHE'D HEARD SOMETHING, SHE REGRETTED HAVING SAID IT, BECAUSE SHE DIDN'T EXPECT ALL THIS TO ENSUE, BUT THEY KEEP SAYING IT.

EVEN THOUGH IT'S BEEN -- IT'S BEEN REPEATEDLY DEBUNKED.

I MEAN, THIS IS THE KIND OF THING THAT PEOPLE GET FIRED FROM JOBS FOR.

YOU -- YOU COULD GET ARRESTED FOR LYING IN CERTAIN CONTEXTS.

>> I THINK WHEN WE LOOK BACK AT THE HISTORY OF THIS CAMPAIGN, WE'LL SAY THAT THAT LIE, ABOUT THE DOGS AND CATS, WAS, IN MANY WAYS, TYPICAL OF THE KIND OF LYING THAT WE SAW THROUGHOUT THE 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN.

AND WHAT'S STRIKING ABOUT IT IS, ON ONE HAND, IT WAS THOROUGHLY DEBUNKED.

THE FACT-CHECKERS DID AN EXCELLENT JOB OF TELLING YOU THAT IT WAS NOT TRUE.

REPORTERS NOT ONLY MADE CALLS ABOUT IT, THEY VISITED SPRINGFIELD, THEY TALKED TO PEOPLE, THEY TRACKED DOWN THE ORIGIN OF IT, AND THEY PROVED IT WASN'T TRUE.

DID THAT MATTER?

UNFORTUNATELY, NOT.

DONALD TRUMP DOUBLED DOWN ON THAT IN THE DEBATE AND WHEN DM DAVID MUIR QUESTIONED ABOUT ABOUT IT, DONALD TRUMP SAID, WELL, HE HAD SEEN IT ON TV.

SO, THAT TO ME WAS IN A NUTSHELL, WHAT'S WRONG WITH LYING THESE DAYS IS THAT POLITICIANS JUST DO IT WITHOUT ANY CARE AT ALL ABOUT BEING CALLED OUT ON LIES.

AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT WE NEED TO THINK ABOUT AS WE GO FORWARD FROM THIS IS, HOW CAN WE CHANGE THIS SYSTEM TO GET PEOPLE TO CARE ABOUT LYING AND TO GET POLITICIANS TO CARE ABOUT LYING?

>> JANUARY 6th IS SOMETHING THAT EVERYBODY SAW, IF THEY -- IF THEY WERE PAYING ATTENTION, YOU KNOW, HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE HAVE BEEN THROUGH THE COURT SYSTEM AT THIS POINT.

AND WHILE SOME OF THEM STILL ADHERE TO THESE LIES AND INSIST THEY ARE PATRIOTS AND SO FORTH, IT'S ALL THIS -- BUT A LOT OF THEM SAID THAT THEY WERE RADICALIZED, BASICALLY, BY WHAT THEY HEARD, AND THEY THOUGHT THAT THEY WERE BEING CALLED TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

AND THEY SAY THAT, YOU KNOW, WITH HINDSIGHT, THEY RECOGNIZE THEY WERE WRONG.

BUT WHAT DO YOU THINK IT IS THAT KIND OF PUSHED PEOPLE TO THAT POINT?

WHY DO YOU THINK IT IS THAT THOSE PARTICULAR LIES PUSHED PEOPLE IN THIS KIND OF VIOLENT AND DANGEROUS DIRECTION?

>> SO, UNUSUAL ANSWER, THE FACEBOOK ALGORITHM.

SO IN THE BOOK, I DEVOTE A CHAPTER TO A CITY COUNCIL MEMBER FROM PARKERSBURG, WEST VIRGINIA, WHO IS ONE OF THE PEOPLE WHO STORMS THE CAPITOL ON JANUARY 6th.

AND THE REASON THAT I CHOSE TO FOCUS ON HIM, HIS NAME IS ERIC BARBER, IS THAT HE WAS INTERVIEWED BY THE JANUARY 6th COMMITTEE ALONG WITH ABOUT TWO DOZEN OTHER PEOPLE WHO STORMED THE CAPITOL.

SO, I READ ALL OF THOSE TRANSCRIPTS, AND I NOTICED ONE COMMON WORD KEPT POPPING UP.

WHEN THE INVESTIGATORS ASKED EACH OF THEM HOW THEY CONNECTED WITH PEOPLE, HOW THEY GOT INFORMATION ABOUT THE STOP THE STEAL RALLY THAT TOOK THEM TO WASHINGTON, ONE AFTER ANOTHER, THEY KEPT SAYING FACEBOOK.

AND SO, IF YOU -- IF YOU ASK BARBER ABOUT SORT OF WHAT RADICALIZED HIM, HE'S PRETTY BLUNT IN SAYING, IT WAS FACEBOOK.

FACEBOOK OFFERED HIM THIS -- THIS TASTY FEED OF -- OF CLIPS FROM FOX AND -- AND LOVE FOR BEING -- FOR BEING TRUMPY IN THE THINGS THAT HE POSTED, AND SO, IT REALLY -- IT REALLY GOT HIM TO BE AN EXTREME SUPPORTER OF DONALD TRUMP.

IN FACT, HE WENT TO WASHINGTON NOT SO MUCH TO ATTEND THE RALLY, ALTHOUGH -- I MEAN, HE WENT TO ATTEND THE RALLY, BUT HE ALSO WENT TO CREATE CONTENT FOR HIS FACEBOOK FOLLOWERS.

SO, I WAS REALLY STRUCK THAT -- AT THE -- AT THE ROLE THAT FACEBOOK PLAYED WITH ALL OF THESE PEOPLE, THAT THE INVESTIGATORS INTERVIEWED, AND I -- I FOUND THAT THAT'S SOMETHING THAT REALLY DIDN'T GET DISCUSSED AS MUCH IN ALL OF THIS COVERAGE OF THE PEOPLE WHO STORMED THE CAPITOL.

>> DO YOU HAVE A THEORY ABOUT WHY IT IS THAT AMERICANS SEEM TO BE SO INDIFFERENT TO THIS AT THE MOMENT?

AT LEAST SOME AMERICANS.

AT LEAST ENOUGH AMERICANS ARE INDIFFERENT DO IT THAT IT PERSISTS, BECAUSE IF IT DIDN'T WORK, THEY'D STOP DOING IT.

>> I THINK IT'S BECAUSE AMERICANS FEEL OVERWHELMED WITH INFORMATION.

THAT LIFE SEEMS SO COMPLICATED, AND THEY JUST DON'T WANT TO HAVE TO TEASE OUT WHAT'S TRUE AND WHAT'S NOT.

THEY DON'T WANT TO HAVE TO SIT THERE WITH ONE WEBSITE, FIGURING OUT IF EVERY CANDIDATE THAT THEY HEAR SOMETHING -- IS THAT TRUE?

AND YOU KNOW, THEY DON'T WANT TO HAVE TO DO HOMEWORK TO LISTEN TO A POLITICAL SPEECH.

THINGS ARE -- THE INFORMATION AGE WAS SUPPOSED TO SIMPLIFY OUR LIVES IN MANY WAYS, AND TO THE CONTRARY, IT HAS MADE THINGS MORE COMPLICATED, BECAUSE WE OFTEN FEEL OVERWHELMED BY THIS AVALANCHE OF INFORMATION AND THINGS THAT WE HAVE TO DEAL WITH.

AND I THINK ALONG THOSE LINES, PEOPLE ARE, LIKE, EH, THEY'RE LYING, THERE THEY GO AGAIN.

AND I THINK THEY JUST SORT OF SHRUG AND SAY, WELL, POLITICIANS HAVE ALWAYS LIED, AND I DON'T THINK THEY DISCERN THE FACT THAT IT REALLY IS DIFFERENT NOW.

YOU KNOW, IN THE OLD DAYS, THE LYING SOMETIMES HAD CONSEQUENCES, THERE WERE DEFINITELY POINTS LIKE LBJ'S LIES ABOUT THE VIETNAM WAR, BUT TODAY, LIES ABOUT CLIMATE, LIES ABOUT COVID, HAVE SERIOUS CONSEQUENCES FOR OUR WORLD, FOR OUR LIVES.

AND PEOPLE SHOULD CARE ABOUT THESE THINGS.

>> SAY A LITTLE BIT MORE, IF YOU WOULD, I KIND OF JUMPED AHEAD A LITTLE BIT, ABOUT WHY IT MATTERS SO MUCH.

>> PEOPLE LOSE FAITH IN THE SYSTEM.

THEY DON'T TRUST THE POLITICAL SYSTEM, THEY DON'T TRUST INSTITUTIONS, THEY DON'T TRUST GOVERNMENT.

THEY DON'T TRUST THE NEWS MEDIA.

IF YOU LOOK AT POLLS, POLLS JUST SHOW DECLINING TRUST IN ALL SORTS OF INSTITUTIONS OVER THE YEARS.

AND SO LYING JUST CONTRIBUTES TO THAT, BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE LIKE, WHAT CAN I BELIEVE?

AND, OF COURSE, YOU KNOW, OUT IN THE HORIZON, WE HAVE THE POTENTIAL FOR A HUGE STORM OF ARTIFICIAL DEEP FAKES AND OTHER SORTS OF FAKE CONTENT THAT IS GOING TO MAKE THIS PROBLEM EVEN WORSE.

BUT -- BUT THE RESULT IS A LACK OF TRUST IN OUR INSTITUTIONS, SO, THAT'S SERIOUS.

THE OTHER BIG THING IS, WE CAN'T HAVE A SERIOUS CONVERSATION ABOUT IMPORTANT ISSUES IF WE CAN'T AGREE ON THE SAME FACTS.

IF YOU HAVE ONE PARTY THAT DENIES THAT THE CLIMATE IS CHANGING, WE CAN'T HAVE A CONVERSATION ABOUT CLIMATE.

IF THAT PARTY CONTINUES TO PUT OUT FALSE CLAIMS ABOUT CLIMATE, AS THE REPUBLICANS DO, WE CAN'T HAVE THE IMPORTANT CONVERSATION THAT WE NEED TO HAVE ABOUT POLICIES THAT MIGHT ADDRESS CLIMATE CHANGE.

>> LOOK, IF LYING IS AN EFFECTIVE POLITICAL STRATEGY, WHY DON'T DEMOCRATS DO IT MORE?

>> THE DEMOCRATS ARE STOPPED FROM LYING BY TWO THINGS.

ONE, I DON'T THINK THEY BELIEVE IT'S AS EFFECTIVE AS THE REPUBLICANS DO.

THEY ALSO DON'T HAVE THE MEDIA ECOSYSTEM THAT WOULD EGG THEM ON THE WAY THAT THE CONSERVATIVE ECOSYSTEM DOES.

AND THEY ALSO -- THEY ALSO FEEL SHAME IN WAYS THAT I'M AFRAID TOO MANY POLITICIANS ON THE RIGHT DO NOT.

ONE SENIOR WHITE HOUSE OFFICIAL PUT IT TO ME THIS WAY, SAYING, WHEN A DEMOCRAT GETS A PANTS ON FIRE FROM POLITIFACT, THEY GET A CALL FROM THEIR BIG DONOR THAT SAYS, HEY, WHAT HAPPENED HERE?

THIS IS NOT GOOD.

WHERE AS ON THE RIGHT, THE CALL PROBABLY IS, HEY, GOOD FOR YOU, MAN, YOU STUCK IT TO THE MEDIA, YOU KNOW?

SO, THERE'S A DIFFERENT CULTURE IN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY THAT -- THEY JUST DON'T BELIEVE THAT LYING PAYS OFF THE WAY THAT THE REPUBLICANS DO.

>> SO WHAT'S THE WAY OUT OF THIS, BILL?

>> SO, WHAT I TRIED TO DO WAS THINK ABOUT, WELL, WHAT DO POLITICIANS CARE ABOUT?

WHAT DO THEY NEED, AND THEN, HOW COULD WE DEVELOP A POLICY THAT COULD ADJUST THE AVAILABILITY OF THOSE THINGS BASED ON THEIR RECORD FOR LYING?

AND SO, ONE THING THAT MY STUDENTS CAME UP WITH IS ADVERTISING.

SO, POLITICIANS NEED ADVERTISING.

THEY NEED TO BE ABLE TO REACH THEIR CONSTITUENTS AND OTHER SUPPORTERS THROUGH ADVERTISING, PARTICULARLY ON THE WEB, PARTICULARLY ON SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORMS.

AND SO, HOW ABOUT CHARGING MORE TO POLITICIANS WHO HAVE WORSE RECORDS FOR LYING AND CHARGING LOWER RATES FOR POLITICIANS THAT HAVE BETTER RECORDS?

AND, YOU KNOW, THAT'S SOMETHING THAT REALLY HITS THEM WHERE THEY NEED IT.

IF YOU COULD GET THE AD NETWORKS AND SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORMS TO DO THAT, YOU COULD PUT A DENT IN THE PROBLEM.

I DON'T THINK IT WOULD SOLVE IT, BY ANY STRETCH, BUT I THINK YOU COULD -- YOU COULD HAVE AN IMPACT.

ANOTHER IDEA, SAME SORT OF CONCEPT, IS TO TAKE SOMETHING THAT'S VERY SUCCESSFUL WITH REPUBLICANS, A PLEDGE AGAINST TAX INCREASES, AND APPLY THAT SAME APPROACH TO LYING.

GROVER NORQUIST, THE HEAD OF THE AMERICANS FOR TAX REFORM, REALLY, ONE OF THE MORE POWERFUL PEOPLE IN WASHINGTON, HE STARTED A PLEDGE WHERE POLITICIANS PLEDGE THAT THEY WON'T RAISE TAXES.

WHAT IF YOU DO THE SAME THING ABOUT LYING?

IF THEY PLEDGED NOT TO LIE, AND THAT -- THE SIGNING OF THAT PLEDGE BECAME A THING, WHERE THEY WOULD BE CHALLENGED IF THEY DIDN'T DO THAT?

>> BILL ADAIR, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>>> AND FINALLY, IT IS THE FILM DONALD TRUMP DOES NOT WANT YOU TO SEE.

"THE APPRENTICE" PORTRAYS A YOUNG TRUMP AS HE MAKES HIS ASSENT IN 1970s NEW YORK.

AFTER THE FILM WAS SHONE AT THE CANNES FILM FESTIVAL IN MAY, TRUMP'S LAWYER SENT A CEASE AND DESIST LETTER IN AN ATTEMPT TO BLOCK THE RELEASE.

HERE'S WHAT THE DIRECTOR TOLD CHRISTIANE WHEN THEY SAT DOWN TOGETHER IN LONDON.

>> THE REASON IT'S CALLED "THE APPRENTICE" IS BECAUSE HE IS APPRENTICE TO THIS VERY PROMINENT LAWYER BY THE NAME OF ROY COHN.

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

>> VERY FAMOUS DURING THE NIXON ADMINISTRATION, BEFORE THAT, THE McCARTHY HEARINGS, AND HE WAS REALLY VERY, VERY EXTREME, VERY GOOD LAWYER, VERY, VERY RIGHT WING, WHO PROFESSED ALWAYS THAT HIS MAJOR CLIENT WAS AMERICA.

BUT I WANT TO PLAY THIS CLIP, BECAUSE IT IS ESSENTIALLY WHAT THE WRITER GABRIEL SHERMAN SAYS IS WHERE TRUMP LEARNED WHAT WE NOW KNOW AS TRUMPISM.

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

>> THERE'S RULES.

THE FIRST RULE IS ATTACK, ATTACK, ATTACK.

>> GOING TO BE THE FINEST BUILDING IN THE CITY.

MAYBE THE COUNTRY.

IN THE WORLD.

>> RULE TWO.

ADMIT NOTHING.

DENY EVERYTHING.

>> THERE'S NEVER BEEN ANYTHING LIKE THIS OF THIS MAGNITUDE, THIS QUALITY.

>> OH.

CHEESE BALLS OVER HERE.

>> WHAT ARE YOU DOING?

>> YOU WANT ONE?

>> NO, IT LOOKS TOTALLY DISGUSTING.

>> CHEESE BALLS.

>> RULE THREE, NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS, YOU CLAIM VICTORY, AND NEVER ADMIT DEFEAT.

>> YOU HAVE TO BE WILLING TO DO ANYTHING TO ANYONE TO WIN.

>> I MEAN, IT IS ACTUALLY VOID THEIR.

NOW, THAT'S A TRAILER, THE THREE RULES ARE ALL BROKEN UP WITH SCENES AND MUSIC.

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

DENY, DENY, ATTACK, ATTACK, ATTACK, AND NEVER, EVER ADMIT DEFEAT.

AND YOU CAN TAKE THAT AS A STRAIGHT LINE FROM THERE TO JANUARY 6th.

>> YEAH, YOU KNOW, BASICALLY, IT'S ABOUT, LIKE, REALITY WORKS FOR YOU, MANIPULATE IT.

IF IT DOESN'T WORK FOR YOU, JUST MANUFACTURE THE REALITY YOU NEED.

>> GABRIEL SHERMAN, WHO WROTE THE SCREENPLAY, BASICALLY SAID, OF COURSE, THAT HE HAD HEARD ROGER STONE, A VERY CLOSE TRUMP ALLY, BACK IN THE 2016 CAMPAIGN, SAY THAT TRUMP WAS WINNING BECAUSE HE WAS IMPLEMENTING THE LESSONS ROY COHN TAUGHT HIM, THESE THREE LESSONS.

>> RIGHT.

AND OBVIOUSLY, WE FOR DRAMATIC REASONS, WE TRY TO SIMPLIFY THAT, YOU KNOW, AND, YOU KNOW, MR. TRUMP, HE'S LIKE A SPONGE-LIKE CHARACTER, AND SORT OF AN IDEOLOGY OR WAY OF LOOKING AT THE WORLD, BASICALLY COMES DOWN TO, IF YOU WIN, WHATEVER YOU WIN, HOWEVER YOU WIN, YOU WON.

AND THEN, YOU CAN SORT OF WORRY ABOUT THE PRINCIPLES AND WORRY ABOUT THE NARRATIVE AFTERWARDS, AND IT'S BEEN VERY SUCCESSFUL.

>> EVEN IF YOU LOSE, YOU WIN, BECAUSE YOU SAY THAT YOU WON.

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, THE -- THE WINNING HAPPENS SORT OF IN THE -- IN THE WORLD OF MEDIA.

AND THE WINNING HAPPENS ON THE NEWSPAPER PAGE, AND IF YOU WIN THERE, THEN THE REALITY WILL SOMEHOW FOLLOW, YOU KNOW?

>> AND YOU CAN WATCH THAT FULL INTERVIEW WITH CHRISTIANE LATER THIS WEEK.

>>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP ON THE SHOW EACH NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING.

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♪♪