Read Full Transcript EXPAND
>> HELLO EVERYONE AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR AND COMPANY.
HERE IS WHAT IS COMING UP.
THE PENNSYLVANIA PRIZE WITH LESS THAN TWO WEEKS TO GO, CANDIDATES ARE BOMB STORMING THE SWING STATE WITH THE MOST ELECTORAL VOTES.
I SPOKE WITH THE JOURNALIST WHO IS THERE.
DIRE WARNINGS ABOUT DONALD TRUMP FROM HIS FORMER GENERALS, LEGENDARY REPORTER BOB WOODWARD JOINS THE PROGRAM ON WHAT IS AT STAKE AND HIS NEW BOOK, "WAR".
>> ALSO AHEAD.
>> WHEN YOU'VE GOT A GOVERNMENT CLAIMING TO SPEAK FOR JEWISH PEOPLE ACROSS THE WORLD, THERE IS BOUND TO BE AN UPRISE.
>> AERIAL ANGEL SHARES HER PERSPECTIVE WITH MICHELLE MARTIN.
.
>> AMANPOUR AND COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT .
JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.
CANDACE KING WEIR.
THE SYLVIA A.
AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT .
THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LAYLA AND MICKEY STRAUSS.
MARK J. BLECHNER.
THE FILOMEN M. D AGOSTINO FOUNDATION.
SETON J. MELVIN.
THE PETER G PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND .
CHARLES ROSENBLUM.
KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN.
COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES WITHIN THE COMMUNITIES.
BARBARA HOPE IS OUR NEIGHBORS.
ZUCKERBERG.
AND BY CONTRIBUTION TO THE PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.
THANK YOU.
>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM CHRISTIANE .
HE WARNS THE FORMER PRESIDENT MEETS THE DEFINITION OF A FASCIST AD WOULD GOVERN AS A DICTATOR IF YOU WANT AGAIN IF HE WON AGAIN.
>> CERTAINLY THE FORMER PRESIDENT IS IN THE FAR RIGHT AREA.
SOMEONE SO AUTHORITARIAN ADMIRES PEOPLE WHO ARE DICTATORS.
HE HAS SAID THAT.
HE FALLS INTO THE GENERAL DEFINITION OF FASCIST FOR SURE.
>> TRUMP CERTAINLY HAS BEEN ADMIRING THE VARIOUS DICTATORS ACCORDING TO KELLY, MORE THAN ONCE TRUMP REMARKS THAT HITLER DID SOME GOOD THINGS.
HIS CAMPAIGN DENIES THESE COMMENTS BUT IT'S THE LATEST IN A LINE OF WARNINGS FROM FORMER AIDES AND YET THE RACE TO THE WHITE HOUSE IS STILL SO TIGHT.
THE FINAL RESULT WILL COME DOWN TO A HANDFUL OF SWING STATES LIKE PENNSYLVANIA WHICH BOTH CANDIDATES ARE TRYING TO CLENCH.
A VETERAN JOURNALIST HAS BEEN INTERVIEWING VOTERS IN THE STATE OVER MONTHS NOW AND JOINS US FROM PITTSBURGH.
CHRISTINE, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
COULD I BEGIN BY ASKING A GUT REACTION FROM WHAT YOU'VE BEEN GLEANING FROM TALKING TO THE POTENTIAL VOTERS?
THESE FRESH WARNINGS FROM JOHN KELLY AND OTHERS, PARTICULARLY IN BOB WOODWARD'S BOOK THE FORMER CHAIRMAN OF THE JOINT CHIEF THAT ACTUALLY TRUMP FALLS INTO THAT FASCIST SPACE.
DO YOU THINK THIS WILL AFFECT THE VOTERS AT THIS TIME?
>> HELLO, IT'S NICE TO BE HERE.
IT'S AN INTERESTING QUESTION, PARTICULARLY WHEN YOU REALIZE PENNSYLVANIA IS ONE OF THE TOP PITTSBURGH IN PARTICULAR HAS OVER 100,000 PEOPLE WHO ARE RETIRED MILITARY FROM VARIOUS WARS.
PENNSYLVANIA IS A GOOD STATE TO BE RETIRED MILITARY PERSON BUT THE QUESTION IS WHETHER BOOKS OR LONG ARTICLES AND THAT SORT OF NEWS IS ACTUALLY GETTING TO THE POPULATION AND IN MY REPORTING BOTH IN 2020 AND NOW IN 2024 I'M NOT FINDING THAT PEOPLE ARE READING, THEY ARE GETTING THEIR NEWS FROM SOCIAL MEDIA LARGELY AND OLDER GENERATIONS ON TV.
SO THESE BIG QUESTIONS ABOUT VALUE ARE DEBATABLE ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT PEOPLE ARE REACTING.
THE MILITARY PEOPLE ARE BRINGING UP THESE ISSUES AS A MATTER OF INTEGRITY AND VALUES AND UNDERSTANDING THE DIFFERENT BRANCHES OF GOVERNMENT AND WHY THE MILITARY IS NOT ANSWERABLE AND IS NOT A FRIEND OF THE PRESIDENT, THERE ANSWERABLE TO THE CONSTITUTION AND THE MILITARY SERVICE.
IT IS UNCLEAR IF THAT MESSAGE IS, YOU KNOW, GETTING THROUGH.
>> LET'S GET BACK TO ONE OF THE THINGS THAT ARE ACTUAL FACTS FROM LAST ELECTION AND THIS ONE OR DIFFERENT FACTS.
ONE IS THAT TRUMP WON PENNSYLVANIA BY A REALLY SLIM MARGIN IN 2016.
PRESIDENT BIDEN WHEN HE WON MOCK IN 2020 WON BY A SLIM MARGIN.
BOTH CANDIDATES ARE DESPERATE TO GET PENNSYLVANIA.
WHAT ARE YOU SEEING OR HEARING IN TERMS OF THE LAST FEW DAYS OF THE CANDIDACY AND HOW IT'S LANDING?
>> IT'S MORE VIBRANT GROUND GAIN THAN THERE WAS IN 20 .
I WAS HERE WATCHING HOW THE CAMPAIGN WAS WORKING AND WAS TURNING OUT.
WAS ALSO COVID TIMES.
LAST WEEKEND, THREE PEOPLE CAME UP TRYING TO REGISTER ME TO VOTE.
THERE ARE LEAFLETS BOUND ON THE FRONT PORCHES HERE.
IT IS INTERESTING AND AT THE STRONGER GROUND GAME.
THE CONVERSATIONS COMING OUT OUR ROE V WADE AND THE DOBBS DECISION.
THAT GETS TO THE GENDER SPLIT , WILL WOMEN BE VOTING AND PARTICULARLY VOTING ON THE ISSUE?
BOTH REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS, THERE'S MORE DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS IN THIS COUNTY.
THE QUESTION IS, WILL THAT BE CHANGING?
BECAUSE BOTH OF THOSE CAMPAIGNS, 2016 AND 2020 WERE DECIDED BY TENS OF THOUSANDS OF VOTES, THEY ARE PART OF THAT , THE PEOPLE WHO ARE CHANGING THEIR REGISTRATION OR BECOMING INDEPENDENCE.
AS OF THIS WEEK, REGISTRATION HAS STOPPED AS OF MONDAY.
THERE'S 1.9 MILLION PEOPLE WHO ARE NOW INDEPENDENCE.
THAT IS, I'VE BEEN TALKING TO ONE ANALYST, LAURA PUTNAM FROM THE UNIVERSITY OF PITTSBURGH LOOKING AT THE DATA OVER THE LAST TWO PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGNS AND SHE HAS A NEW PIECE IN THE NEW YORK REVIEW OF BOOKS.
SHE ANALYZES RURAL WOMEN, RURAL WHITE WOMEN, RURAL MIDDLE-AGED WOMEN WHO WERE ACTIVATED BY THE 2017 VOTES BUT FURTHER ACTIVATED BY THE DOBBS DECISION.
SOME OF THOSE PEOPLE WHO ARE DEMOCRATS ARE NOW INDEPENDENCE BASED ON PRESIDENT BIDEN'S POOR DEBATE AND A LOT OF REPUBLICANS, BECAUSE OF THE DOBBS DECISION ALSO REGISTERED NOW OR SEEM TO HAVE SWITCHED TO BE INDEPENDENT AND THAT CROWD, THE GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO KNOWS HOW THEY WILL VOTES.
THE POLLS ARE SHOWING, CNN HAS DONE POLLS IN THE NEW YORK TIMES HAS DONE POLLS, WE ARE ALL AWARE IT'S VERY CLOSE AND ANYONE WHO SAYS THEY KNOW WHAT WILL HAPPEN, THEY ARE JUST TELLING A STORY BUT WHAT WE HAVEN'T REALLY SEEN IS WHAT ARE THOSE INDEPENDENT VOTERS DOING?
WHAT ARE THE ISSUES MOTIVATING THEM?
YOU HAD A JANUARY 6 PROTESTS THAT RESULTED IN A LOT OF CRIMINAL CHARGES IN TWO DOZEN PEOPLE FROM WESTERN PENNSYLVANIA WERE AMONG THOSE CHARGED SO YOU'VE GOT A LOT OF DIFFERENT THREADS OF THOUGHTS ABOUT GOVERNMENT AND THOUGHTS ABOUT HOW THE GOVERNMENT SHOULD HAVE AGENCY OVER YOUR BODY OR NOT.
ALL OF THOSE ARE PLAYING OUT IN THIS YEAR .
>> IT'S REALLY INTERESTING AND OF COURSE AGAIN IN THE STATE YOU ARE IN WHICH YOU COVERED OVER THE LAST SEVERAL ELECTIONS IT'S SO CLOSE AND IMPORTANT.
WE TALKED A LITTLE BIT OR YOU DID ABOUT THE GENDER GAP AND ESPECIALLY AMONGST YOUNG WOMEN AND YOUNG MEN HOW THEY BRING FORWARD THE DIFFERENT CANDIDATES.
KAMALA HARRIS HAS TALKED ABOUT THIS.
SHE HASN'T RUN ON GENDER BUT SHE DID TALK ABOUT THIS DURING HER LAST INTERVIEW, ONE OF THE LATEST INTERVIEWS SHE HAD WITH NBC.
WE WILL PLAY THIS LITTLE SNIPPET.
>> I WILL NEVER ASSUME THAT ANYONE IN OUR COUNTRY SHOULD ELECT A LEADER BASED ON THEIR GENDER OR RACE.
INSTEAD THAT THE LEADER NEEDS TO EARN THE VOTE BASED ON SUBSTANCE AND WHAT THEY WILL DO TO ADDRESS THESE CHALLENGES AND TO INSPIRE PEOPLE TO KNOW THAT THEIR ASPIRATIONS AND THEIR AMBITIONS CAN AND WILL BE ACHIEVED THROUGH THE OPPORTUNITY TO DO THIS.
>> SO CHRISTINE, SPECIFICALLY TALKING TO MEN AND WOMEN OR YOUNG MEN AND WOMEN AND MAYBE THE WHOLE RACE-GENDER DIVIDE WHICH HAS BEEN TALKED ABOUT A LOT WHEN THIS COMES TO THE ELECTION ARE YOU HEARING A CONSISTENT SET OF FEELINGS OR STORIES?
>> IT'S INTERESTING.
I THINK WITH WHAT KAMALA HARRIS WAS TALKING ABOUT WITH VALUES, THAT GOES BACK TO THE RUNNING COMMENTARY ON THE REVELATIONS OF TRUMP AND THE MILITARY AS WELL AS THEIR OPINIONS ON HIM BUT WHAT SHE'S SAYING, I SPENT AN AFTERNOON AT A BURGER SHOP ON EAST LIBERTY IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD OF PITTSBURGH THAT IS PREDOMINANTLY BLACK.
THE MEN WERE FIRST-TIME VOTERS.
I INTERVIEWED A 28-YEAR-OLD FIRST-TIME VOTER AND A 43-YEAR- OLD FIRST-TIME VOTER.
AND THE OTHER AT CATERER.
THE CATERER WAS WATCHING EVERYTHING.
HE WAS WATCHING FOX NEWS, CNN, SOCIAL MEDIA.
HIS ISSUE WAS VALUES.
HE WAS REACTING TO HOW WHAT PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS TALKED ABOUT THE VALUES, HE SAID HE WAS OFFENDED ABOUT HOW HE SPOKE ABOUT WOMEN .
HE WAS A 43-YEAR- OLD MAN WHO HAD NOT VOTED BEFORE SO I THOUGHT THAT WAS INTERESTING.
I'VE GONE TO RALLIES AND I'VE WALKED AROUND NEIGHBORHOODS TALKING TO PEOPLE IN DIFFERENT NEIGHBORHOODS IN PITTSBURGH, IN WEALTHY NEIGHBORHOODS AND NOT SO WEALTHY NEIGHBORHOODS.
THERE'S AN INTERESTING THING GOING ON WHERE EVERYONE IS NERVOUS AS THEY WERE FOUR YEARS AGO BUT THEY ARE ALSO THINKING WELL MAYBE THAT PERSON IS BEING QUIET BECAUSE THEY ARE ACTUALLY VOTING FOR THE WAY THINKING I'M NOT VOTING AND I INTERVIEWED A COUPLE FROM FOX CHAPEL, PROBABLY THE WEALTHIEST IT WAS A LAWYER AND A PSYCHIATRIST.
THEY SAID THEY THOUGHT THAT KAMALA HARRIS WAS GETTING MORE VOTES AND I SAID WHY WOULD YOU THINK THAT IN FOX CHAPEL?
THEY SAID BECAUSE PEOPLE WON'T TALK AND THEY THOUGHT THAT MEANT IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD WHERE PEOPLE VOTED FOR MR. TRUMP BEFORE PEOPLE WERE QUIETLY CHANGING TO KAMALA HARRIS.
IS IT SCIENTIFIC?
ABSOLUTELY NOT BUT YOU KNOW, PEOPLE WHO HAVE LIVED IN THESE COMMUNITIES FOR A LONG TIME, THEY KNOW HOW PEOPLE REACT IN THEIR IS THEIR GUT REACTION.
I SPOKE TO A RETIRED DAYCARE WORKER WHO LIVES IN THE HILL DISTRICT OF PITTSBURGH.
A HISTORICALLY BLACK AREA.
SHE SAID SHE WAS QUITE WORRIED.
SHE WOULD BE VOTING FOR HARRIS BUT WHEN SHE SPOKE WITH YOUNG MEN THEY GOT QUIET SO SHE SAID TO ME I THINK THEY ARE SILENT BECAUSE THEY'RE GOING TO VOTE SO IT IS A TENSE TIME HERE AND SO I THINK THE IDEA THAT THE BIGGER ISSUES OF INTEGRITY AND VALUES, WHAT IS BINDING YOU AS A COMMUNITY MIGHT BE WHAT BRINGS IT TOGETHER BUT I THINK THAT THE DOBBS DECISION WAS POTENT AND REMAINS POTENT.
>> THERE SO MUCH GRANULAR INFORMATION YOU ARE GIVING US AND I WANT TO ASK YOU AGAIN, SORT OF A GUT FEELING, YOU AND I HAVE BEEN WAR CORRESPONDENCE AND HAVE BEEN TO PLACES WITH CIVIL UNREST WHERE DEMOCRACY IS EITHER NONEXISTENT OR BELEAGUERED.
OF COURSE, THERE IS THE FEAR OF VIOLENCE, YOU KNOW, THE CONFLICT EVEN AFTER THE ELECTION.
ARE YOU HEARING THOSE FEARS THAT ALL THIS TIME?
>> I DEFINITELY HEARD THOSE FEARS AND 2020 BASED ON THE DEMONSTRATIONS.
CONFERENCE CALL, IT'S CALLED ERADICATE HATE.
IT LOOKS AT HATE CRIMES.
IT WAS STARTED BECAUSE OF THE 2018 ATTACKS ON THE TREE OF LIFE SYNAGOGUE HERE WHERE 11 PEOPLE WERE MURDERED AND OTHERS WERE INJURED AND SHOT AT.
THERE WAS A WHOLE SEEM AT THE CONFERENCE ABOUT THE CONCERN FOR DOMESTIC TERRORISM AS THEY WERE USING TERRORISM AS A WORD AND USING THE WORD EXTREMISM AND I THINK THERE IS THE FEAR.
NO ONE SPOKE ABOUT THE ELECTION OR WITH TOUCH THAT THIRD RAIL OR BRING THE CURRENCY IN OF TODAY'S EVENTS.
I THINK PEOPLE ARE COGNIZANT, PARTICULARLY AFTER JANUARY 6 THAT PEOPLE IN THE REGION, THERE WERE TWO DOZEN PEOPLE ARRESTED THAT PEOPLE ARE -- THEY CAN BE, YOU KNOW ENCOURAGED TO DO THINGS THAT WOULD NOT AND I WONDER IF THE JANUARY 6 CHARGES AND ARRESTS HAVE MADE PEOPLE REALIZE WE DON'T WANT TO GO THERE AGAIN BUT YOU KNOW, THERE ARE ALL SORTS OF LEGAL MANEUVERS RIGHT NOW AND WE SAW THIS TODAY THAT THE CAMPAIGN IS ALLEGING THAT THE UK LABOUR PARTY INTERFERED WITH THE ELECTION SO THERE ARE LEGAL MANEUVERS GOING ON.
WE REALLY DON'T KNOW WHAT WILL HAPPEN.
REMEMBER LAST TIME WE WERE HERE FOR WEEKS WITH THE COUNTY.
THAT WILL HAPPEN THIS TIME IN PENNSYLVANIA OR AT LEAST IT WON'T HAPPEN IN THE SECOND LARGEST COUNTY WHICH IS ALLEGHENY COUNTY WHERE I AM AT.
THEY HAVE NEW VOTING TABULATION MACHINES AND EXPECT THE VOTES AND ANNOUNCED IT YESTERDAY.
THEY EXPECT THE MAIL IN BALLOTS TO BE READY BY THE TIME THE POLLS CLOSE AT 8:00 P.M. AND THAT'S DIFFERENT FROM 40 YEARS AGO AND PROBABLY DIFFERENT FROM TWO YEARS AGO SO, I THINK THAT THEY FEEL VERY GOOD AT LEAST IN THIS COUNTY AND ALSO IN PHILADELPHIA THE LARGEST COUNTY THAT THEY ARE PREPARED AND YOU KNOW, JOSH SHAPIRO IS THE GOVERNOR HERE, HE WAS CONSIDERED TO BE THE VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATES AT ONE POINT AND HAS BEEN PRETTY FORTHRIGHT IN POINTING OUT HOW THE ELECTION PROCEDURES HAVE BEEN IMPROVED.
>> REALLY INTERESTING.
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.
>> AS WE POINTED OUT EARLIER THE FORMER MARINE GENERAL AND HOMELAND SECURITY CHIEF, JOHN KELLY, WAS TRUMP'S LONGEST SERVING CHIEF OF STAFF.
HIS WARNINGS ABOUT HOW HE WOULD RULE DURING A SECOND TERM ARE THE LATEST IN AN ALARMING LIST OF ALLEGATIONS FROM OTHER FORMER WHITE HOUSE OFFICIALS.
VICE PRESIDENT KAMALA HARRIS HAS ADDRESSED THE COMMENTS OUTSIDE OF THE VP'S RESIDENCE JUST TODAY.
>> DONALD TRUMP IS INCREASINGLY UNHINGED AND UNSTABLE AND IN ANOTHER TERM, PEOPLE LIKE JOHN KELLY WOULD NOT BE THERE TO BE THE GUARDRAILS AGAINST HIS PROPENSITIES AND HIS ACTIONS.
THOSE WHO ONCE TRIED TO STOP HIM FROM PURSUING HIS WORST IMPULSES WOULD NO LONGER BE THERE AND NO LONGER BE THERE TO REIN HIM IN.
SO THE BOTTOM LINE IS THIS, WE KNOW WHAT DONALD TRUMP WANTS.
HE WANTS UNCHECKED POWER.
THE QUESTION, IN 13 DAYS WHAT IS IT THAT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE WANT?
>> TRUMPS PEOPLE HAVE LEAPT TO HIS DEFENSE AND ARE CASTING ASPERSIONS AGAINST JOHN KELLY AND OTHERS BUT OTHERS POINT OUT WHY SHOULD ANYONE BE SURPRISED BECAUSE DONALD TRUMP HAS SAID THESE THINGS, VERY SIMILAR THINGS THROUGHOUT HIS TIME IN PUBLIC OFFICE AND OUTSIDE OF PUBLIC OFFICE SO ADDING TO THIS, THE FINDINGS OF THE LEGENDARY INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER BOB WOODWARD IN HIS NEW BOOK, "WAR" OUT IN TIME FOR THE ELECTION.
IT'S ALSO A DEEP DIVE INTO THE BIDEN IT ILLUSTRATION AND ITS HANDLING OF THE WARS IN AFGHANISTAN, UKRAINE, AND GAZA AND HE JOINS ME NOW FROM WASHINGTON.
WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, BOB.
>> THANK YOU.
>> WHAT A DAY TO TALK ABOUT THIS WITH ALL OF THE NEWS THAT'S COME OUT FROM SOME OF THE FORMER OFFICIALS WHO YOU HAVE SPOKEN TO.
I WANT TO START WITH YOUR ASSESSMENT OF THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION.
YOU BASICALLY IN THE EPILOGUE Q DROP THE MASK A LITTLE BIT ANTISTATE YOUR OPINION.
YOU WRITE, "THERE WERE FAILURES AND MISTAKES, THE FULL STORY IS OF COURSE NOT YET KNOWN BUT BASED ON THE EVIDENCE AVAILABLE NOW I BELIEVE PRESIDENT BIDEN AND HIS TEAM WILL BE LARGELY STUDIED IN HISTORY AS AN EXAMPLE OF STEADY AND PURPOSEFUL LEADERSHIP.
>> SO WHAT COMPELLED YOU TO COME TO THIS CONCLUSION?
THAT BIDEN MADE, I THINK IT WAS CRITICAL TO NOT SEND U.S.
GROUND TROOPS TO UKRAINE.
SO BIDEN AT AGE 81 AS HE WAS IN POLITICS.
HE KNOWS THE SHADOW OF SENDING TROOPS ABROAD TO FIGHT IN A FOREIGN WAR.
HE DECIDED THAT HE IS NOT GOING TO DO THIS.
HE WON'T DO IT, WHY?
BECAUSE THIS LEADS TO AN ENTANGLEMENT.
LOOK AT VIETNAM.
THE IDEA THAT WE SENT 500 500,000 U.S.
TROOPS TO FIGHT IN THIS FOREIGN WAR.
58,000 AMERICAN TROOPS DIED IN THAT WAR.
BIDEN HAVING OBSERVED THAT EXPERIENCE, JUST WHEN UKRAINE CAME UP HE SAID, WE WILL HELP THEM, WE WILL SUPPLY THEM AND IN FACT NOW THE U.S. GOVERNMENT HAS SPENT BILLIONS OF DOLLARS TO AID UKRAINE BUT WE ARE NOT SENDING OUR OWN TROOPS.
THAT REALLY INSULATES THE COUNTRY , NOT PERFECTLY, OBVIOUSLY, BUT SIGNIFICANTLY.
>> SO LET'S FOLLOW UP BECAUSE TO THAT END, YOU TALKED ABOUT BIDEN, YOU KNOW, LIKE OBAMA SAID, BASICALLY, WE AREN'T GOING TO START WORLD WAR III OVER UKRAINE AND THIS IS BECAUSE, AS WE REPORTED AND EVERYONE, PUTIN HAS ALARMINGLY DANGLED THAT SABER RATTLING WHEN IT COMES TO TACTICAL NUKES.
HE REPORTED SOME INTERESTING AND IMPORTANT CONVERSATIONS BETWEEN THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION AND THE PUTIN ADMINISTRATION IF I COULD SAY THAT, PARTICULARLY THE DEFENSE CHIEF, LLOYD AUSTIN TO HIS RUSSIAN COUNTERPART THE DEFENSE MINISTER.
I WANT TO READ THIS BECAUSE HE IS SPEAKING, FIRST OF ALL, WHAT LED THEM TO THAT?
WHAT KIND OF INFORMATION DID THEY HAVE BEYOND HIS PUBLIC SABER RATTLING?
>> THEY HAD INFORMATION IN 2022, THIS STARTED OUT LOW, 5% PROBABILITY THAT RUSSIA WOULD USE TACTICAL NUCLEAR RIBBONS.
WEAPONS.
IT ESCALATED IN A MATTER OF DAYS UP TO 50% AND IN THE WHITE HOUSE HE REALIZED THAT A COIN FLIP.
WHAT WILL DETERMINE THAT AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I WAS LOOKING THROUGH, SOME NOTES.
WILL YOU BEAR WITH ME ON THIS?
>> YES .
>> IT WAS A DANGEROUS TIME THEN AND IT'S A DANGEROUS TIME NOW.
ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I FOUND IN MY REPORTING I FOUND IN MY NOTES.
THE CIA DIRECTOR WENT TO CHINA IN MAY AND IN JUNE AND IN THE CLASSIFIED REPORT TO PRESIDENT BIDEN.
HE SAID THERE WAS AN INCREASING PARTNERSHIP BETWEEN RUSSIA AND NORTH KOREA.
THE LEADER OF NORTH KOREA, WHO IS, IF THERE IS EVER A ROGUE LEADER IN THE WORLD, IT IS HIM.
THE INTELLIGENCE SHOWED THAT THEY WERE CAPABLE OF DEPLOYING A NUCLEAR WEAPON ON THE ICBM , THE INTERCONTINENTAL BALLISTIC MISSILE THAT COULD REACH THE UNITED STATES, THEY HAD NOT YET PERFECTED THAT BUT THEY ARE FOCUSING ON THAT FOR YEARS.
SO BURNS REPORTED TO THE PRESIDENT AND THE NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL WE ARE NOW IN A WORLD OF WHAT WE HAVE TO DEAL WITH.
UNPLANNED, INADVERTENT, ESCALATION.
HE SAID, ALL OF THE WARNING SYSTEMS ARE BLINKING RED.
THIS IS NOW, THIS SPRING.
A BLINKING RED.
IF YOU RECALL BEFORE 9/11, THAT'S WHAT THE CIA HAD SAID ABOUT THE ANTICIPATION OF SOME SORT OF ATTACK.
SO THIS IS EXACTLY LIKE THAT.
THIS IS TURNS OUT THE INTELLIGENCE AGENCIES HAVE BETTER INFORMATION THAN IS GENERALLY KNOWN.
>> THE INTELLIGENCE AGENCIES, THEY RELEASED THEIR INTELLIGENCE ON THE IMPENDING RUSSIAN INVASION OF UKRAINE IN 2022 MADE PUBLIC AND ON THE NUCLEAR ISSUE I WAS FASCINATED TO READ SOME OF THESE QUOTES AND CONVERSATIONS REGARDING THE DEFENSE SECRETARY, LLOYD AUSTIN WHO DOESN'T GET QUOTED OFTEN.
HE'S NOT ONE OF THOSE WHO TALKS MUCH AND GETS QUOTED UNLIKE THE OTHER ADMINISTRATION OFFICIALS.
SO, HE SPOKE TO HIS RUSSIAN COUNTERPART YOU SAY .
I'M GOING TO READ THIS, HE SAYS, "THIS COULD PUT US ON THE PATH OF CONFRONTATION WHICH WOULD HAVE EXISTENTIAL IMPLICATIONS FOR YOU AND US.
DO NOT STEP ON THAT SLIPPERY SLOPE AND YOU SAY, WHEN HE RESPONDED, HE DOESN'T TAKE KINDLY TO BEING THREATENED.
HE SAYS, "I'M THE LEADER OF THE MOST POWERFUL MILITARY IN THE WORLD.
I DON'T MAKE THREATS."
THIS APPEARS TO HAVE CAUSED HIM TO BACK OFF AND THAT'S WHAT YOU FOUND OUT.
>> YES, THIS WAS A FACTOR THIS WAS A MOMENT WHEN THE U.S. INTELLIGENCE WAS ABLE TO DEMONSTRATE TO THE SECRETARY OF DEFENSE, THAT PARTICULAR INTERCHANGE WHICH IS LONGER, I TOOK THAT A COUPLE OF MONTHS AGO TO THE SECRETARY.
YOU'VE GOT SOMETHING THAT SOMEONE SAID AT A CRUCIAL MOMENT AND YOU WANTED TO GET THEIR SIDE OF IT.
I WENT INTO HIS OFFICE INTO THE PENTAGON.
I SAID, I UNDERSTAND THIS IS WHAT YOU SAID AT THIS POINT.
I STARTED HE DIDN'T KNOW THAT I HAD IT AND SAID, THAT IS ACCURATE.
THAT IS ACCURATE.
AT THE END HE SAID, WHERE DID YOU GET THAT?
FROM THE RUSSIANS?
I OF COURSE DID NOT.
I TOLD HIM THAT I DIDN'T GET IT.
THIS IS A MOMENT OF GREAT PERIL FOR THE COUNTRY.
WE ARE NOW IN THAT.
WE SHOULDN'T KID OURSELVES TO THINK THAT PARTICULARLY WITH THE ISSUE OF TECHNICAL NUCLEAR WEAPONS PUTIN --.
>> YOU MADE IT CLEAR HE REPORTING PUTS US IN A PLACE OF GREAT PERIL AND I WANT TO ASK YOU THERE FOR ABOUT TRUMP, WHO YOU'VE ALSO WRITTEN BASICALLY A TRILOGY ON AND THE LATEST CONVERSATIONS THAT HAVE BEEN AND STORIES IN THE ATLANTIC RIGHT NOW REPORTING ABOUT WHAT HIS GENERALS HAVE SAID ABOUT HIM IN YOUR BOOK YOU'VE GOT THE FORMER CHAIRMAN OF THE JOINT CHIEFS WHO SPOKE ABOUT FASCIST TENDENCIES AND WORRIED ABOUT BEING COURT-MARTIALED IF HE COMES BACK AND NOW JOHN KELLY THE FORMER GENERAL AND HOMELAND SECURITY.
SOMEONE WHO FITS THE DEFINITION OF FASCIST AND WHO, ESSENTIALLY REPORTS AND SAYING I NEED THE KIND OF GENERALS HITLER HAD.
PEOPLE WHO ARE TOTALLY LOYAL TO HIM AND FOLLOWED HIS ORDERS.
THAT'S JEFFREY GOLDBERG.
NOW I'M GOING TO PUT A SOUNDBITE UP OF JOHN KELLY.
>> HE MADE COMMENTS MORE THAN ONCE SANG HITLER DID SOME GOOD THINGS TO.
IF YOU KNOW HISTORY, I THINK HE IS LACKING IN THAT BUT IF YOU KNOW HISTORY, HITLER WAS ALL ABOUT, IT WOULD BE HARD TO MAKE GOOD.
>> TRUMPS PEOPLE, HIS OFFICIALS, SPOKES PEOPLE HAVE DENIED THIS AND ARE TRYING TO WRITE OFF PEOPLE LIKE JOHN KELLY AS DISGRUNTLED AND TROMPED ARRANGING DERANGEMENT SYNDROME.
SO ARE YOU CONCERNED WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT THE DANGER ABROAD?
ARE YOU CONCERNED THAT THIS KIND OF CHARACTER WHO HAS WRITTEN AND SPOKEN ABOUT ADMIRING PEOPLE LIKE PUTIN , ARE YOU WORRIED ABOUT WHAT THEY MIGHT DO IN OFFICE?
>> YES .
IF I MAY GO BACK 50 YEARS TO THE NIXON ERA, JOHN MITCHELL WHO WAS NIXON'S CAMPAIGN MANAGER AND THE ATTORNEY GENERAL WHO ONCE SAID WATCH WHAT WE DO AND NOT WHAT WE SAY.
FAST FORWARD TO NOW COME A WHAT THEY SAY IS IMPORTANT AND IS PART OF THE STORY BUT REALLY, THE CORE OF THIS IS WHAT ARE THEY DOING AND HOW DOES TRUMP OPERATE?
I'VE DONE BOOKS ON HIM AND I SPENT A LOT OF TIME TALKING TO HIM.
HERE IS WHAT HE DOESN'T DO.
HE DOESN'T PLAN.
HE JUST SAYS I'M GOING TO PICK THAT OFF THE SHELF.
THAT IDEA, I'M GOING TO SAY THIS.
THERE'S NO PLANNING SYSTEM.
YOU KNOW AND I BELIEVE VIEWERS KNOW IN A NATIONAL SECURITY ENVIRONMENT YOU ARE RUNNING A ROULETTE WHEEL WHERE RANDOM NUMBERS COME UP.
YOU NEED TO PLAN.
THE OTHER ELEMENT, YOU NEED A SUPPORT TEAM.
LOOK AT THE SUPPORT TEAM BIDEN HAS, WHATEVER YOU MIGHT CRITICIZE BIDEN FOR , HE HAS PEOPLE IN THE STATE DEPARTMENT AND PEOPLE IN THE DEFENSE DEPARTMENT AND PEOPLE IN THE CIA AND IN THE WHITE HOUSE, THEY WORK TOGETHER AND SAY OKAY, WHAT ARE THE ORDERS AND HOW WILL WE EXECUTE THEM?
IN THE CASE OF TRUMP, THERE IS NO TEAM.
HE JUST DECIDES.
THE ABSENCE OF TEAM AND THE ABSENCE OF A PLAN IS WHAT EVERYONE SHOULD WEIGH AND WORRY ABOUT.
I SPENT YEARS ON TRUMP AND I TELL YOU, THAT IS THE WAY HE OPERATES.
ARE WE GOING TO BE IN AN ENVIRONMENT OR A WORLD WHERE HE IS PRESIDENT AND HE'S JUST GOING TO SAY WELL, WE WILL DO THIS OR THAT?
NO PLAN, NO BACKUP TEAM.
HE HAS SOME PEOPLE WHO ARE KIND OF SUPPORTING HIM, FINGERS ON BUT THERE'S NO LASTING PEOPLE.
IF YOU LOOK AT SOME OF THE CURRENT GOVERNMENT, BIDEN, HE HAS GOT PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN THERE.
THEY MEET, THEY DISCUSS.
THEY TRY TO SAY HEY, THIS IS THE LOGICAL COURSE OF ACTION APPROVED BY THE PRESIDENT.
>> IT'S INTERESTING YOU SAY THAT BECAUSE JUST THE DAY BEFORE WE SPOKE, THE VICE PRESIDENT, KAMALA HARRIS ADDRESS DID THE COMMENTS ABOUT WHAT JOHN KELLY REPORTED AND LAMENTED IN ANOTHER TERM HE WOULDN'T HAVE THE SO-CALLED EXPERIENCED TEAM BEHIND HIM BECAUSE HE SAID THAT.
THERE ARE OTHERS WHO WOULD BE COMING IN .
>> ALL THOSE PEOPLE ARE GONE.
>> THAT'S WHAT I'M SAYING HE WOULDN'T HAVE THEM.
YOU WOULDN'T HAVE THEM, EXACTLY .
>> HE WANTS TO BE, AS WE KNOW, HE IS AN ADMIRER OF PUTIN , AN ADMIRER OF AN AUTOCRAT .
YOU KNOW, THIS IS NOT THE WAY THAT YOU COULD RUN THE GOVERNMENT.
THIS COULD HAVE TRAGIC THE WORDS ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM.
THE ACTION AND THE FUNDAMENTAL STYLE OF MAKING DECISIONS AND CARRYING THEM OUT, IT IS THE ROAD TO POTENTIAL DISASTER.
>> SO YOU ALSO IN THE BOOK WRITE ABOUT KAMALA HARRIS, THE CURRENT DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATE.
DO YOU THINK THAT SHE IS THE RIGHT ONE?
BASED ON WHAT YOU HAVE SEEN AND THE EXPERIENCE THAT SHE MIGHT HAVE GAINED BEING IN THE ROOM WHEN THE WARS AND DECISIONS AS WELL AS DIFFICULT MOMENTS WERE NAVIGATED?
>> SHE'S GONE TO THE PRESIDENT SCHOOL AND IS STILL GOING TO PRESIDENT SCHOOL.
I HAVE SOME SCENES IN THE BOOK THAT ARE VERY DETAILED.
FOR INSTANCE, I THINK IT WAS OVER THE SUMMER, JULY 25 SHE MET WITH THE PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU.
IT WAS A GOOD TALK ABOUT WHAT IS GOING ON IN THE MIDDLE EAST AND SO FORTH.
SHE CAME OUT IN PUBLIC AND SAID THE HUMANITARIAN SUFFERING, BEING CAUSED BY ISRAEL IN GAZA, IT IS UNCONSCIONABLE.
THEN SHE SAID I WILL NOT BE SILENT.
SHE WASN'T.
SO SHE WILL MAKE HER DECISIONS BUT I HAVE FOUND IN THE REPORTING ON THIS, SHE WILL STEP OUT AND SAY WHAT SHE THINKS.
NOW, PEOPLE GET TO DECIDE BUT THAT IS AN EVIDENTIARY TRAIL OF HOW SHE IS OPERATING.
IT IS WITH A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF INDEPENDENCE.
>> AND FINALLY AND QUITE QUICKLY, YOU BASICALLY ILLUSTRATE THE FRAUGHT BETWEEN PRESIDENT BIDEN AND BENJAMIN NETANYAHU.
HERE IS A QUOTE FROM BIDEN.
"HE IS A BAD GUY.
HE'S A BAD GUY.
HE DOESN'T CARE ABOUT HAMAS HE CARES ABOUT HIMSELF."
THAT'S COMPELLING, HOW DO YOU ACCOUNT FOR HIM NOT BEING ABLE TO INFLUENCE BENJAMIN NETANYAHU AS MUCH AS HE SHOULD PERHAPS AS A PRESENT?
>> WE KNOW HIS CHIEF INFLUENCE COMES FROM HIS SELF HIMSELF.
THAT'S THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES EXPRESSING PERSONAL FRUSTRATION WITH BENJAMIN NETANYAHU.
AS WE KNOW, THE POLICY IS IN ALIGNMENT WITH ISRAEL .
THE BIDEN APPROACH IS THAT WE WILL SUPPORT ISRAEL BUT NOT NECESSARILY BENJAMIN NETANYAHU.
THE FEELING OF FRUSTRATION IS PRETTY WIDESPREAD WITHIN THE U.S. GOVERNMENT AND AMONG OTHER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU IS STRONG, HE HAS VIEWS AND THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO SUPPORT HIM IN AND OUT OF ISRAEL THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO ALSO CRITICIZE HIM IN AND OUT OF ISRAEL.
>> AMAZING REPORTING, THANK YOU SO MUCH.
BOB WOODWARD AND WAR.
>>> NOW AS WE MENTIONED, THE REPORTS OF PRESIDENT BIDEN'S PRIVATE OPINION OF THE PRIME MINISTER COMES AS THE SECRETARY OF STATE IS IN THE MIDDLE EAST PUSHING FOR PEACE AMID THE ESCALATING WAR OUR NEXT GUEST DESCRIBES THE MOMENT IN THE REGION AS A DARK NIGHT OF THE SOUL.
ARIAL ANGEL IS THE EDITOR IN CHIEF OF THE JEWISH CURRENTS MAGAZINE IT WAS FOUNDED 80 YEARS AGO AND ESTABLISHED ITSELF AS A SPACE FOR PROGRESSIVES TRYING TO ESTABLISH JEWISH IDENTITY OUTSIDE OF WHAT WE WOULD CALL A THE MAGAZINE HAS DOUBLED ITS SUBSCRIBERS SINCE LAST YEAR.
ARIELLE ANGEL SPEAKS TO MICHELLE MARTIN ABOUT THE DIFFICULT SITUATION AT THE TIME.
>> THANK YOU FOR TALKING WITH US.
>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.
>> IT'S NOT EASY TO TALK ABOUT BUT OCTOBER 7 WAS A SHOCK TO EVERYONE.
IF I COULD JUST ASK YOU, TAKE ME BACK TO ONE YEAR AGO.
WHAT WERE THE CONVERSATIONS WITHIN THE MAGAZINE ABOUT WHERE THE MAGAZINE SHOULD STAND?
HOW SHOULD WE DEAL WITH THESE EVENTS?
>> FIRST OF ALL I WILL SAY OCTOBER 7 WAS A LOT OF THINGS , VERY DIFFICULT.
I COULD SAY FOR SURE IT WAS A SHOCK BECAUSE IF YOU WERE WATCHING THESE EVENTS CLOSELY THE WARNING SIGNS WERE FLASHING THAT WE WERE RIPE FOR AN ATTACK LIKE THIS AND SUPPORT FOR ARMED RESISTANCE WITHIN THE PALESTINIAN COMMUNITIES WAS RISING BECAUSE OF THE COMPLETE COLLAPSE OF DIPLOMATIC SOLUTION AND THE WAY THE ACCORDS IN PARTICULAR SIGNALED TO THE PALESTINIANS THAT THERE WAS NO CHANCE OF THEM GAINING THEIR FREEDOM.
SO IN FACT, WE WERE TALKING ABOUT EXACTLY THIS WITHIN THE JEWISH CURRENTS.
WE WERE LISTENING TO COMMENTATORS AND ANALYSTS WHO WERE SPEAKING TO US AND WE KNEW THAT THIS WAS COMING.
>> HOLD ON A SECOND SO YOU AREN'T SAYING THAT THIS WAS THE BENEFIT OF HINDSIGHT.
WHAT YOU ARE TELLING ME IS, THESE WERE ACTIVE CONVERSATIONS THEN, BEFORE OCTOBER 7 PAST?
>> ABSOLUTELY ANYONE WHO'S BEEN WATCHING THE CONVERSATION AND SITUATION CAREFULLY, THEY COULD SEE THERE WOULD BE AN INCREASE OR AN EXPLOSION OF VIOLENCE.
I DON'T THINK ANYONE EXPECTED IT --I DON'T THINK THEY EXPECTED THE ISRAELI DEFENSES TO CRUMBLE AS MUCH AS THEY DID WHICH WAS REALLY A SURPRISE.
OF COURSE, YOU KNOW, THE HORROR OF THE ATTACK IS A SHOCK TO THE SYSTEM NO MATTER WHAT.
IN TERMS OF THE EXISTENCE OF THE ATTACK LIKE THIS, WE WERE READING TEXTS TOGETHER TO HELP US PREPARE FOR THE SITUATIONS.
WE KNEW ALSO THAT THERE WAS REALLY NO WAY FOR US TO PREPARE AND THAT IT WOULD SHATTER OUR COMMUNITIES AND IT WOULD SHATTER OUR ORGANIZING COMMUNITIES.
MANY PEOPLE WITHIN THE JEWISH COMMUNITIES THAT READ JEWISH CURRENTS WERE GOING TO HAVE A SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT EMOTIONAL RESPONSE TO THE EVENT OR A PROFOUNDLY DIFFERENT RESPONSE FROM MANY OF OUR PALESTINIAN PARTNERS OR READERS.
WE STRUGGLED WITH THIS.
>> YOU ARE A MAGAZINE, YOU'RE THOUGHTS.
WHAT WERE SOME OF THE CONVERSATIONS ABOUT WHAT YOU SHOULD HAVE SAID?
>> IT TOOK US FIVE DAYS TO PUBLISH.
IT WAS INTENTIONAL.
I FELT WE NEEDED TO SLOW DOWN AND NOT ONLY BE REACTIVE BUT THINK ON WHAT THE RESPONSIBILITY WE HAD WAS IN THIS MOMENT AND HOW WE WOULD RESPOND.
THE FIRST THING WE DID , WE COLLECTED QUESTIONS FROM THE READERSHIP ABOUT WHAT THEY FELT CONFUSED ABOUT AND TRY TO ANSWER THOSE QUESTIONS AND THERE WERE MORE EMOTIONAL WORK.
HOW DO I TALK TO MY FAMILY?
HOW DO I RECOMMIT THE PALESTINIAN LIBERATION IN THIS MOMENT EVEN IF I KNOW SOMEONE WHO WAS KILLED IN THE OCTOBER 7 ATTACK?
PARSING ZIONISM, NON-ZIONISM, ANTI-ZIONISM, PEOPLE'S RIFTS WITHIN THEIR FAMILIES, SEVERE RIFTS THAT MAY NEVER BE PREPARED.
WE HAD A NUMBER OF IN PERSON GATHERINGS.
THE QUESTION OF GRIEF WAS A HOT BUTTON ISSUE.
PARTICULARLY BECAUSE MANY JEWISH PEOPLE WERE FEELING GRIEF.
THERE ARE REAL CONNECTIONS, FAMILIAL CONNECTIONS AND OTHERWISE BETWEEN AMERICAN JEWISH PEOPLE AND THOSE LIVING IN ISRAEL.
WE DID NOT WANT THE GRIEF TO BE WEAPON EYES ON BEHALF OF A MILITANT RESPONSE FROM THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT AND LEANED INTO REPORTING BECAUSE WE FELT THAT THERE WAS A LOT OF INFORMATION THAT NEEDED TO GET OUT.
WE DID DISPATCHES FROM THE WEST BANK AND GAZA AND WHAT PEOPLE WERE EXPERIENCING AND ALONG SIDE OF THE POLITICAL ASPIRATIONS IN THE MOMENT.
WE DID REPORTING ON HOSTAGE FAMILIES BECAUSE IN THE UNITED STATES THERE'S THIS SENSE THAT RINGING HOME THE HOSTAGES MEANS MORE MILITARY ACTION WHEN, OF COURSE, IN ISRAEL, THE HOSTAGE FAMILIES HAD BEEN CLEAR WHAT THEY WANT IS A DEAL AND AN EXCHANGE OF PRISONERS AND HOSTAGES ON PALESTINIANS SIDE.
SO, WE TRIED TO ROOT IN THE QUESTIONS WE WERE ASKING OURSELVES WITH THE MISCONCEPTIONS THAT WERE CIRCULATING IN THESE NARRATIVES.
>> I'VE GOT TO ASSUME IT IS THIS THE FACT THAT CONTRIBUTES TO HAVE THEY BEEN AFFECTED DIRECTLY?
ONE OF YOUR CONTRIBUTORS.
YOU GOT CONTRIBUTOR'S I BELIEVE WHO HAVE LOST FAMILY MEMBERS AND GAZA.
>> NOT ONLY THAT , WE HAVE PUBLISHED DISPATCHES FROM PEOPLE AND GAZA FOR THEM TO BE KILLED THE NEXT WEEK.
THE CARNAGE IS UNIMAGINABLE.
>> WHAT DO YOU THINK IS YOUR JOB RIGHT NOW?
AS I READ IT , IT SEEMS LIKE WHAT YOU ARE TRYING TO DO IS TO HOLD SPACE FOR THE THOUGHTS AND PEOPLE WHO DON'T WANT TO HOLD TOGETHER BUT THE GRIEF, THE INTENSE GRIEF OF WATCHING THIS MASSACRE ON OCTOBER 7 TAKE PLACE IN REAL TIME, WE WERE MEANT TO SEE IT IN REAL TIME.
THE PERPETRATORS FILMED IT AND LIVE STREAMED IT, THEY WANTED US TO SEE THIS.
THE CARNAGE IN GAZA , SOME OF US AS NEWS ORGANIZATIONS, WE STILL HAVE PEOPLE WHO ARE STILL REPORTING THERE.
WE ARE SEEING THAT IN A WORLD THAT IS INCREASINGLY CRITICAL OF ISRAEL.
ALSO, RISING INCIDENTS OF ANTI- SEMITISM.
>> IT'S A GOOD QUESTION .
FIRST OF ALL LET ME SAY THAT 30% OF THE JEWISH COMMUNITY GENERALLY HOLDS VIEWS THAT ARE CONSISTENT WITH NON-OR ANTI-ZIONISM AND THE NUMBER RISES TO 40% UNDER 44 UNDER THE AGE OF 44.
OUR JOB IN SOME WAY IS TO HOLD THIS 40% OF A YOUNGER GENERATION AND 30% OF THE COMMUNITY OVERALL TO ALLOW THEM AWAY TO BE JEWISH AND CLAIM THEIR JEWISHNESS WITHIN THE CONTEXT OF OR IN THE FRAMEWORK OF JUSTICE AND LIBERATION FOR PALESTINIANS AND ALSO TO FIGHT FOR THAT FROM THEIR PARTICULAR POSITION ALLERGY, PARTICULARLY AS THE POSITION AUDI HAS BEEN WEAPON EYES THROUGH THE ACCUSATIONS OF ANTI-SEMITISM.
WE KNOW ANTI-SEMITISM RISES INDIRECTLY CORRELATES TO THE NUMBER OF PALESTINIANS THAT THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT KILLS.
BROWN UNIVERSITY PUT OUT A STUDY WHICH SAYS THE DEATH TOLL IN GAZA COULD BE CLOSER TO 100,000 IF NOT MORE.
SO WHEN YOU HAVE THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT THAT IS CLAIMING TO SPEAK FOR JEWISH PEOPLE ACROSS THE WORLD THERE WILL BE RISING ANTI-SEMITISM AND AT THE SAME TIME, THE CONFLATION OF ANTI- ZIONISM AND ANTI-SEMITISM IS MUDDYING THE WATERS SUCH THAT IT'S BECOME DIFFICULT TO ACTUALLY ADDRESS THE ANTI- SEMITISM IN SUCH A WAY THAT HAS CREDIBILITY AND WHAT ADDRESSES THE REAL PIECES OF THIS.
>> COULD YOU TALK ABOUT THAT FOR A MINUTE?
WHEN YOU SAY ZIONISM, WHAT DO YOU MEAN?
AND WHEN YOU SAY INTO ZIONISM WHAT DO YOU MEAN?
BECAUSE AS YOU HAVE ALLUDED TO, THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO WOULD ARGUE ANTI-ZIONISM IS ANTI- SEMITISM AND THAT THERE ARE OTHERS WHO WILL ARGUE WHO ARE CLOSELY RELATED TO THAT IS THAT IT'S A PROXY FOR ANTI-SEMITISM.
THEY ARE EXPERIENCED IN THE REAL WORLD IN THE SAME WAY.
>> IT'S AN IDEOLOGY FOUNDED IN THE LATE 19th CENTURY BY THEODORE HARTSELL, JUDAISM IS A RELIGION AND CULTURE OF THOUSANDS OF YEARS.
ZIONISM WAS NEVER WITHIN JEWISH COMMUNITIES AND BECAME SO OVER THE 20th CENTURY BUT THERE WAS A JUDAISM BEFORE ZIONISM AND THERE WILL BE ONE AFTER.
SO JUST AS WE WOULD CRITICIZE ANY OTHER STATE AND PARTICULARLY ESTATE THAT MEETS THE LEGAL DEFINITION OF APARTHEID HAS MANY HUMAN RIGHTS ORGANIZATIONS HAVE ASSERTED MEANING THAT THERE ARE DIFFERENT, THERE'S A DIFFERENT EXPERIENCE OF PEOPLE OF ONE GROUP AND PEOPLE OF ANOTHER, WE COULD CRITICIZE THAT STATE.
THERE ARE WAYS PEOPLE HAVE PARSED THIS SAYING WE THINK IT'S OKAY TO CRITICIZE ISRAEL BUT THERE ARE VARIOUS WAYS TO CRITICIZE ISRAEL AND CROSSES INTO ANTI-SEMITISM.
THAT IS TRUE.
THERE'S ANTI-SEMITISM IN OUR MOVEMENTS JUST AS THERE IS SEXISM OR RACISM OR HOMOPHOBIA AND ABEL IS HIM AND WE HAVE TO WORK TO ROOT THOSE OUT THAT'S PART OF THE CULTURE AND NOT PART OF OUR MOVEMENTS OR INHERENT IN ANTI-ZIONISM.
>> WHAT IS ANTI-ZIONISM TO YOU?
>> I WAS RAISED ZIONIST AND IN A ZIONIST COMMUNITY AT HOME.
FOR ME, WHAT THAT MEANT WAS HAZY.
IT MEANT I BELONGED TO THIS COMMUNITY ON SOME LEVEL.
I DIDN'T REALLY KNOW.
WHEN I STARTED TO DO ACTIVIST WORK FOR PALESTINE I DIDN'T CALL MYSELF AN ANTI-ZIONIST OR THINK ABOUT ZIONISM BECAUSE I BARELY KNEW WHAT I WAS AND I THINK IT'S COMMON WITHIN THE JEWISH COMMUNITY.
IT'S A MARKER OF BELONGING WITHOUT A VERY FIRM DEFINITION.
ESSENTIALLY WHAT IT MEANS FOR ME NOW IS TWOFOLD.
IT MEANS THAT I RECOGNIZE WHAT PALESTINIANS HAVE EXPERIENCED AS ZIONISM, THE PRIMARY WAY OF UNDERSTANDING WHAT IT MEANS BECAUSE IT HAS MEANT A DIFFERENT SET, A DIFFERENT STANDARD ON EQUALITY AND NOT HAVING FREEDOM OF MOVEMENT.
BEING TRIED IN DIFFERENT COURTS ACCORDING TO DIFFERENT LAWS OR NOT HAVING THE RIGHT TO VOTE FOR THE GOVERNMENT WHICH CONTROLS THEIR LIVES.
ALL OF THESE FACTORS ARE WHAT IT MEANS FOR THE PALESTINIANS.
IN MANY CASES IT MEANS BEING KILLED OR MASSACRED AT WILL AND CERTAINLY WHAT WE ARE SEEING IN GAZA.
IT MEANT ESSENTIALLY ETHNIC MASS MURDER.
I HAVE A DAIS FOR DICTATION OF JUDAISM WHICH MANY ORTHODOX PEOPLE ACROSS THE WORLD SHARE THERE IS SOMETHING ABOUT BEING JEWISH FOR ME THAT IS ABOUT UNDERSTANDING THE STRANGER IN A CERTAIN SENSE AND THAT NATIONALISM AND PARTICULARLY THIS TYPE OF NATIONALISM CONFLICTS WITH THIS VISION FOR ME.
>> THERE'S A WELL-KNOWN AFRICAN-AMERICAN WRITER WHOSE WRITING THIS BOOK AND HE TALKS ABOUT A LOT OF THESE THINGS.
PEOPLE BASICALLY CALLED HIM A TERRORIST FOR SAYING THESE THINGS OR SAYING HE SYMPATHIZES.
WHEN YOU SAY THESE THINGS TO PEOPLE CALL YOU A TERRORIST?
>> ABSOLUTELY WE ALSO ARE CALLED CAPOS LIKE WHO WERE PUT IN CONCENTRATION CAMPS BY THE OVER OTHER AND OVERSAW THEIR KILLING IN MANY CASES .
WE ARE CALLED VERY NASTY THINGS WITHIN THE JEWISH COMMUNITY THE LIST GOES ON.
WHAT IS MADDENING ABOUT THIS IS WE ARE TRYING TO SAY AT THIS LEVEL IS THAT PALESTINIANS DESERVE BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS AND EQUALITY AND DIGNITY AND REPARATIONS FOR THE PLUNDER OF THEIR HOMES AND THE RIGHT TO RETURN TO THOSE HOMES UNDER INTERNATIONAL LAW.
THESE ARE INTERNATIONAL LAWS THAT WERE CREATED AFTER THE HOLOCAUST TO STOP SOMETHING LIKE THIS FROM HAPPENING AGAIN AND PRECISELY BECAUSE THERE IS A PROCESSION OF ISRAEL, KIND OF LIKE THE INHERITORS OF THE HOLOCAUST AND THE TRAUMA.
IT'S HARD TO BREAK THROUGH THAT AND TO ALLOW PEOPLE TO SEE THE BASICS OF WHAT'S ACTUALLY HAPPENING.
>> IT MUST BE PARTICULARLY GALLING TO YOU AND TO OTHERS WITH WHOM YOU WORK.
AS I UNDERSTAND IT, YOUR FATHER'S FAMILY WERE SURVIVORS OF THE HOLOCAUST AND YOUR MOTHER'S FAMILY WERE ARABFROM AN AREA FORMERLY KNOWN AS PALESTINE.
I'M THINKING, TO COME FROM THE HERITAGE OF SURVIVAL AND TO BE CALLED SOME OF THESE NAMES MUST BE --.
>> IT'S ENORMOUSLY PAINFUL.
MY DAD'S PARENTS WERE SURVIVORS FROM AUSCHWITZ.
FRANKLY, IT'S NOT ABOUT ME.
WE ARE DOING THIS WORK BECAUSE OF THE IMAGES THAT WE ARE SEEING RIGHT NOW, SPECIFICALLY COMING OUT OF GAZA.
PEOPLE BEING BURNED ALIVE, PEOPLE BEING CARRIED, THE REMAINS CARRIED IN PLASTIC BAGS.
WE HAVE TO RESPOND TO THIS, NOT JUST AS BUT AS AMERICANS AND AS GLOBAL CITIZENS.
A WORLD WHICH WILL ALLOW THIS TO GO ON IS THE SAME WORLD THAT ALLOWED THESE THINGS TO HAPPEN IN THE 1940S AND ALLOWED MY GRANDPARENTS TO BE IN CONCENTRATION CAMPS.
I UNDERSTAND NOW IN A VISCERAL WAY HOW THIS WAS ALLOWED TO HAPPEN.
>> HOW DO YOU ANSWER THE QUESTION OF THOSE WHO ARGUE THAT IF ISRAEL WERE TO BECOME A MULTIETHNIC, OWELTY RACIAL DEMOCRACY AS THE UNITED STATES STRIVES TO BE, IF THE TABLES WERE TURNED AGAIN, THAT JEWISH PEOPLE WOULD BE SUBSUMED IN THIS PARTICULARLY GIVEN THAT THAT LAND IS SURROUNDED BY PEOPLE WHO SHOE WHO DO NOT SHARE THIS AND HAVE BEEN HOSTILE TO ISRAEL FOR GENERATIONS, HOW DO YOU ANSWER THIS?
WHETHER THEY ARE SAFE RIGHT NOW .
YOU KNOW, THERE HAVE BEEN ATTACKS, ALMOST EVERY DAY OR NOT EVERYDAY BUT THERE WAS ONE ATTACK ICING ON THE HIGHWAY THAT KILLED A NUMBER OF PEOPLE.
THERE WERE ATTACKS AT A BUS STOP.
WE SAW AN ENORMOUS NUMBER OF PEOPLE KILLED ON OCTOBER 7.
IS THIS SAFETY?
THE ARAB STATES DIRECTLY AROUND ISRAEL HAVE SAID THAT THEY WOULD ACCEPT 67 BORDERS EVEN HAMAS HAD SAID THAT AND ACTUALLY, WHAT YOU HAVE AS AN ISRAELI GOVERNMENT THEY'VE BEEN SAYING NO, WE WANT ALL OF IT.
THERE ARE NO TWO STATES, THERE IS NEGOTIATION.
WE WILL SLOG THIS OUT WITH FORCE.
I THINK IF YOU SAW A SHIFT TOWARD PALESTINIAN EQUALITY AND FREEDOM, WOULD BE SAFER.
>> THIS IS THE QUESTION THAT COMES UP IS DO YOU QUESTION THEIR RIGHT TO EXIST?
HOW DO YOU ANSWER THAT QUESTION?
>> IT'S A DIFFICULT QUESTION.
I DO NOT QUESTION THE RIGHT FOR TO LIVE IN SAFETY FOR WHERE THEY LIVE OR ANYWHERE THEY LIVE.
THE RIGHT TO AN S NO STATE OR STATE THAT PRIVILEGES THE RIGHTS OF ONE GROUP OF PEOPLE OVER ANOTHER GROUP OF PEOPLE, I DON'T BELIEVE THAT YOU COULD COUNTENANCE THAT.
THE QUESTION OF RIGHT TO EXIST HAS BECOME ONE OF THOSE QUESTIONS THAT OBSCURES RATHER THAN ILLUMINATES WHAT IS ACTUALLY HAPPENING.
THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS, YOU HAVE 15 MILLION PEOPLE LIVING BETWEEN THE RIVER AND THE SEA HAVE ALREADYAND HALF ARE PALESTINIANS.
IN ORDER TO CREATE A MAJORITY FOR THE JEWISH STATE YOU NEED TO DO ONE OF TWO THINGS.
ETHNIC CLEANSING AND MASS MURDER.
MANY HUMAN RIGHTS EXPERTS AND EXPERTS IN INTERNATIONAL LAW ARE CALLING THIS GENOCIDE.
IS THAT WHAT WE MEAN BY THE RIGHT TO A STATE?
>> DO YOU FEEL , WELL I WILL ASK IT THIS WAY, IS THERE ANYTHING GIVING YOUR HOPE IN THIS MOMENT?
>> IT'S A DARK MOMENT.
I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO SAY.
IT'S LIKE A DARK NIGHT OF THE SOUL.
I THINK THE ONLY THING GIVING ME HOPE IS THAT IT IS SO DARK THAT MAYBE IT IS THE DARK BEFORE THE DAWN?
MAYBE, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE WILL BE ABLE TO SEE WHAT IS HAPPENING AND BUILD SOMETHING NEW ON TOP OF THE ASHES OF THE OLD AND OUT OF THE ASHES OF THE OLD.
MAYBE IS THIS THE OLD WORLD STRUGGLING TO DIE AND A NEW ONE STRUGGLING TO BE BORN?
THAT MEANS NOW IS THE TIME OF MONSTERS, AS THEY SAY.
I THINK, PERSONALLY FOR ME, I DO THIS WORK, NOT BECAUSE I HAVE HOPE, BUT I BELIEVE THIS IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO.
WE OWE IT TO THE PEOPLE WHO ARE SUFFERING NOT TO STOP DOING THIS.
>> ARIELLE ANGEL, THANK YOU FOR SPEAKING WITH US.
>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.
>> AND SO, FINALLY TONIGHT, WE BRING YOU A RARE MOMENT OF HOPE AND OF REAL HARMONY IN THESE DIVIDING TIMES.
>> IT'S MADE OF ARAB AND JEWISH WOMEN AND AIMS TO BUILD BRIDGES EVEN IN THE MOST CHALLENGING CIRCUMSTANCES LIKE NOW.
THEIR VERSION OF THE ITALIAN WORLD WAR II RESISTANCE ANTHEM IS SUNG HERE IN FARSI, HEBREW, AND ARABIC ORIGINALLY DEDICATED TO THE IRANIAN WOMEN, THIS NEW VERSION IS FOR ALL WOMEN WHO LIVE IN WAR ZONES SO WE WANT TO LEAVE YOU WITH THIS HEARTFELT RENDITION OF THE CHOIR.
THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND GOOD BY FROM NEW YORK.
>> AMANPOUR AND COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WEIR , THE SYLVIA A.
AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT , THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LAYLA AND MICKEY STRAUSS, THE FILOMEN M. D AGOSTINO FOUNDATION , MARK J. BLECHNER, SETON J. MELVIN, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG IS, JEFFREY KATZ , AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO THE PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.
THANK YOU.
>> YOU ARE WATCHING