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CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to “Amanpour and Company.” Here’s what’s coming up.
Terrorism strikes America with a political bent. Who is responsible for the pipe bombs and the poisonous political atmosphere? I speak with a
former counterterrorism official.
Plus, the CIA Director has heard the Khashoggi killing tapes and she briefs President Trump. Former British Ambassador, Peter Westmacott, on what this
all means for Saudi-Western relations.
Also, hotly contested midterm elections in Florida could up-end American politics. Our Alicia Menendez with an insider’s view.
And a movie actor for more than half a century still going strong. The unlikely career of a cockney superstar, Sir Michael Caine.
Welcome to the program, everyone. I’m Christiane Amanpour in London.
A manhunt continues across America for a domestic terrorist brazenly sending pipe bombs to specific locations in five states and Washington,
D.C. So far, 10 of these devices have been intercepted, all sent to political targets, including one found today at the office of the actor,
Robert De Niro, who has been highly critical of the president. And two more meant for the former Vice President, Joe Biden. And in a moment, I’ll
speak to a Former Counterterrorism Official, Juliette Kayyem.
But first, in the face of these unfolding events, which obviously hit home at CNN, the investigation around the death of the “Washington Post”
Columnist, Jamal Khashoggi, becomes even more urgent. CIA Director, Gina Haspel, briefed President Trump today on what she learned in Turkey,
including reportedly what she heard on audio tapes of his interrogation and murder. A murder that even the Saudi public prosecutor now says was
premeditated. And President Trump appears increasingly frustrated with the shifting Saudi story.
The president has put Saudi Arabia and Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman at the heart of his Middle East policy, some say his entire foreign policy.
Could his faith in the house of Saudi collapse like a house of cards? That’s certainly what some regional players are hoping.
I asked Peter Westmacott who served as Britain’s ambassador to both Turkey and the United States.
Sir Peter Westmacott, welcome to the program. You know, we want to talk about the Jamal Khashoggi case, but you were an ambassador in the United
States. What do you make of this mail bomb domestic terrorism that’s plaguing parts of the U.S. right now?
PETER WESTMACOTT, FORMER U.K. AMBASSADOR TO TURKEY AND U.S.: Well, Christiane, thanks for having me on the program again.
It brought back some memories, I have to say. Because when I was in ambassador in Turkey, we not only had big terrorist bombs which killed a
lot of my staff in Istanbul, but also pipe bombs. And I used to visit some of the victims, British tourists of these very nasty explosive devices
which people used to put in tourist buses. So, it brought that memory.
What do I make of this? I mean, we don’t know yet whether yet whether this was a nasty cynical attempt to convey a message or whether they were
intended to explode. We will learn in due course. They look as though they are pipe bombs which were directed against people who have been
directly outspoken critics of the president. I hope we will hear the White House absolutely condemning this kind of violence against journalists.
AMANPOUR: We haven’t yet, frankly. And frankly, the president doubled down and blamed the press, the mainstream press again —
WESTMACOTT: He did.
AMANPOUR: — for creating this environment.
WESTMACOTT: He did. I mean, yesterday the first reaction was a bit more statesman like.
AMANPOUR: Yes. But the second wasn’t.
WESTMACOTT: There is was. It was a journalist again and enemies of the people kind of language. He plays to the base.
AMANPOUR: How dangerous is that do you think, this idea of hate speech, this idea that this comes from the top and flows down?
WESTMACOTT: I think it changes the culture of a country. I actually think — maybe I’m a little biased, when I was there and we had President Obama
who responded extraordinarily well to some of the ghastly mass killings in schools and churches and so on, that the role of the head of state is
actually to calm things down and to bring people together and to spread a message of tolerance and inclusion.
That isn’t what we’ve got. We’ve got a president who never pretended he was that, he was always playing to his base, he was always divisive, he was
always punch people on the nose if he doesn’t agree with them. That’s a game, but it’s also dangerous.
AMANPOUR: It’s very dangerous.
WESTMACOTT: And I worry that he does affect the culture and encourages people who maybe kind of bonkers rather than political activists, but to do
things which can be extremely damaging to individuals and to society.
AMANPOUR: So, then let me ask you what you thought when you first heard that Jamal Khashoggi had been killed and then that it was most likely
directed from the highest heights of Saudi Arabia, again, in Turkey, where you used to be ambassador.
I mean, many of us as journalists took that as a very chilling effect, again, from the kind of speech that’s directed to us by the president of
the United States and emulated now, by authoritarians, dictators, kings, crown princes.
WESTMACOTT: Well, my first reaction was one of incredulity. This was like a bad novel. If somebody given a script like that they would say, “This is
not credible. You know, we’re not going to publish your story.”
But then, the more we saw, the stuff that the Turks were leaking, drip, drip, but without ever putting the evidence out there, the more I thought,
“Dear God, this looks like it is true.” And clearly, there has been very close cooperation between the Turkish Intelligence Organization and the
agencies in the Western countries and indeed, briefing of the United States senators and other people. People do seem to be convinced that it is as
described, so horrendous.
AMANPOUR: So, you talked about the evidence. The CIA Director, Gina Haspel has listened to the tape that the Turks have, that’s the news today,
it’s a scoop by the “Washington Post” and she’s briefed the president.
If it does turn out to be the horrible, gruesome death that the Turkish authorities say it was, where does that put the ball? In whose court?
WESTMACOTT: I think it puts a lot of questions to the White House, I think it places a certain responsibility on the shoulders of President Erdogan
who actually has played his cards, I think so far with considerable skill.
Though I do think at some point he’s going to have to put the evidence out there but maybe that’s begun as you say by explaining to the CIA what’s
been going on. And it makes a lot of people in Saudi Arabia where Mohammed bin Salman has made a lot of enemies over the couple of years in which he
has been top dog. It puts him, I think, in a weakened position.
I think he has alienated a lot of the Arab world. He’s alienated a lot of people inside Saudi Arabia. He has managed to captivate a number of Middle
Eastern commentator who thought, “Well, let’s give him the benefit of the doubt or at least encourage him because Saudi Arabia does need reform.”
But there were always doubts about some of his more impulsive, if not irresponsible foreign policy, starting a war in Yemen, kidnapping the
Lebanese foreign minister, almost starting a war with Canada and all those different activities, people rub their eyes with disbelief.
So, I think what’s going on is that the Saudis and perhaps Mohammed bin Salman himself have authorized a brutal murder of the sort, which sometimes
happen in Saudi Arabia but which has captured our imagination and our horror because it is on diplomatic premises in a friendly country not very
far away.
AMANPOUR: So, I would like to play for you a soundbite by the crown prince, the person who many are pointing their finger at, at this so-called
Davos in the Desert. And we just to put up a few graphics because you can see how many people pulled out, a few people stayed in. But he seemed to
be — and look at those graphics there. You can see very senior people and senior organizations pulled out while others stayed in.
The question is whether MBS can weather this storm. And he seems either to be brazening it out or not to get it yet. Look at the joke he made about
Saad Hariri, who you remember, they potentially kidnapped and forced to resign a year ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MOHAMMED BIN SALMAN, SAUDI ARABIA CROWN PRINCE (through translator): I want to conclude with something, Prime Minister Assad is going to be here
for two days. So please, no (INAUDIBLE) that he is kidnapped.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: So, I don’t know what you make of that. I find it very difficult to digest that in the immediate aftermath of the very same day
President Erdogan was telling his parliament that this was a premeditated murder, that had been planned, you know, for weeks before it happened, or
at least several days before it happened. And in an equally grandiose setting, the man who is accused or at least the world of public opinion is
accusing him is busy joking on stage.
WESTMACOTT: Shortly after he has summoned the son of the man who was murdered, to shake his hands in front of the television.
AMANPOUR: And we have that picture too and it’s heartbreaking.
WESTMACOTT: Now, I think what we have seen is somebody who could not get his story straight. We had three or four completely contradictory Saudi
versions of events, he was alive, nothing happened, we don’t know, it was (INAUDIBLE), oh, it was premeditated. And now, trying to make a joke of
it. I think this shows that they don’t really know how to deal with this kind of crisis and this kind of attack on the credibility, self-inflicted
of course, of the crown prince.
And I think what’s going on is both some big questions about who’s in charge of Saudi Arabia and would he ever be king? And secondly, President
Erdogan, using this both as an opportunity to re-estate his own credentials, but through drip, drip information, making the world realize
that Mohammed bin Salman is not really somebody who they want to do business with, because they’ve had a very bad relationship and he’s been
critical of Erdogan and vice-versa for a number of years now.
AMANPOUR: So, some are positing that perhaps Erdogan is trying to separate President Trump from MBS.
WESTMACOTT: Yes.
AMANPOUR: Do you think that’s possible?
WESTMACOTT: Well, I think it is certainly possible that what he is doing is showing what MBS is about.
AMANPOUR: Now, back to the United States. You were ambassador there. Senator Lindsey Graham, who’s a supporter of President Trump, has called
Mohammed bin Salman a wrecking ball who, you know, is going to go, basically.
The senators, the lawmakers, have power. They can prevent arms sales, they can enact the Magnitsky Act, which is about sanctions and apparently,
they’ve already given the president 120 days to come up with whether this was a premeditated extra judicial killing or not. Where do you think this
is going to go? What pressure will Congress put on the president?
WESTMACOTT: Well, the Saudis themselves have now admitted that it was premeditated. So, I think that one is a given. You’re right, Congress can
be extremely strict on sales of the military equipment to other countries. So, let us wait and see really where that takes us. I think there is an
indignation towards Saudi Arabia but many of them have visited many times. America wants to see 10 million barrels a day of Saudi oil in the market,
because that in its strategic interests.
AMANPOUR: Well, especially as they plan more sanctions against Iran.
WESTMACOTT: I don’t think we will get to the stage of the international community doing what they did in response to British requests for support
after the Russians poisoned people in Britain, there was lots of international sanctions of expulsion of spies —
AMANPOUR: Why not?
WESTMACOTT: Well, because Saudi Arabia is a different country. If he’s got a lot of money and he buys a lot of weapons and it invest a lot of
money and it’s got tons of oil.
AMANPOUR: So Western morals, Western principles, down the oil tunnel and down the oil pipeline?
WESTMACOTT: Well, let’s wait and see, I think there will be changes and there certainly will be some change in the strategic thinking in the White
House and elsewhere that MBS is the guy who is the cornerstone of our future Middle Eastern policy.
And it for Erdogan, back to him for a moment, if it means that he’s a bit weaker and American is a little less reliant on the combination of Israel
and Saudi Arabia, who join them in hating Iran and anybody who is talking to Iran and regarding them as the source of all the evils in the region,
that will not be a bad outcome for Erdogan and with Saudi Arabia’s credibility a little bit diminished. But I’m not holding my breath for the
sort of sanctions that we all put together very effectively against Russia after they brutally tried to murder people in Britain.
AMANPOUR: Real politic. Sir Peter Westmacott, thank you very much.
WESTMACOTT: Thank you.
AMANPOUR: Turning back to the attempted mail bombings in America. At first, President Trump called for unity, saying any acts or threats of
political violence are an attack on our democracy itself. But then, he quickly reverted to type, blaming us, the media, at a political rally in
Wisconsin last night. As the first wave of these mail bombings was being investigated.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: The media also has a responsibility to set a civil tone and to stop the endless hostility and constant negative and
oftentimes, false attacks and stories. Have to do it. Have to do it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Now, John Brennan, the Former CIA Director, whose names with on the bomb sent to CNN’s New York office responded with this tweet for the
president. He said, “Stop blaming others, look in the mirror, clean up your act. Try to act presidential. The American people deserve much
better.”
So, as the New York Governor, Andrew Cuomo, says, “America is at a boiling point.” Juliette Kayyem was Assistant Secretary at the Department of
Homeland Security under President Obama and she’s now a lecturer in international security at Harvard’s Kennedy school. And she is joining me
now from Boston.
Juliette Kayyem, welcome to the program.
JULIETTE KAYYEM, FORMER ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF HOMELAND SECURITY: Nice to be here, thank you.
AMANPOUR: Can I first ask you — well, it’s such an awful thing that’s happening and I wonder, you know, put on your Homeland Security hat and
tell me how you, at this point, more than 24 hours later, analyze what these devices are, who could have possibly been amongst the suspects? I
mean, in a general sense. What type?
KAYYEM: So, there’s just going to be the usual of what we’re really familiar with type of investigation, which is these are bombs that did not
go off. So, there’s going to be lots of data on those bombs, fingerprints, possibly hair. There were purchases made. There were — there’s video
cameras in New York.
So, you’re doing, in some ways, a traditional type of investigation, trying to find the individual or individuals who would have done this. I should
add, there’s also an entire sort of courier aspect to this, right, the postal services and courier services that may have been involved.
Then you are also looking at whether there are people who have written letters to those who were receiving the bombs, who have said something
publicly, who have been into social media, whose friends or neighbors may know something. And so, you’re trying to sort of do outreach to the
network or the community that might be a part of the assailant’s world, who may know something more.
So, this is a big investigation, multiple states, multiple agencies, aligned around what we call the Joint Terrorism Task Forces, which take
lead and, you know, to protect not just right now, but obviously of concern is whether there’s more bombs out there.
AMANPOUR: It does seem incredibly organized. I mean, some say, “Well, it looks sort of amateurish because the actual pipe bombs were very sort of
rudimentary.” But on the other hand, we’ve just said, five states and Washington, D.C., almost all at once.
KAYYEM: I agree with you on that. You know, even though the bombs are rudimentary and they didn’t go off and we don’t know why they didn’t go
off, to be able to plan, right, multiple, you know, close to a dozen bombs to be sent to individuals, which you have a certain amount of
sophistication, because you know who they are, you know possible ways to reach them, to try to bypass security reviews through the postal or courier
system, this is someone who has thought about this a long time and may have targeted this very close our election, which is less than two weeks away
now.
And so, I think that this is someone who has a sophistication of a desire to either be noticed or to terrorize or you know, to be really blunt here.
We would be — this person, you know, tried to assassinate two former presidents. That it didn’t work doesn’t matter, right. The intent was to
harm the former presidents or their families. And so, the sort of immediacy of this investigation becomes that much more real.
AMANPOUR: Juliette, do you — have you ever seen or heard of a dragnet of specific political targets like this? They’re all people who have engaged
with the president or who the president has engaged with in very negative and very public terms.
KAYYEM: Yes. So, I’m going to just put my law enforcement Homeland Security hat on because the politics here are just so insane that to state
the obvious is viewed as political. It is not a political statement to say, as an investigator, what do these people, the people who are targeted,
have in common, right. Any rational investigation would do that. It is of course that they are democrats or media institutions that are viewed as
liberal, and they are all individuals who the president has either tweeted at or engaged at or said that, you know, they should be locked up.
That is relevant for investigation because it’s going to go to motive and then motive goes to the pool of people who might be responsible for that.
There’s sort of a wariness of saying that directly but you’d would be sort of — you know, you don’t want to be so careful that you’re not smart about
this, which is there’s an obvious group of people who are targeted.
AMANPOUR: Yes. But, Juliette, you know, one of the things — that is absolutely clear and we shouldn’t hesitate to say the facts because those
are the facts. Now, other thing though which is causing great consternation and nobody knows quite how to say it is, does this emanate
from the top? Is it because of a tone that has been set at the very top of power in the United States? Before you answer that, I am going to play a
mashup of important quotes from the president. Just listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Fake as hell, CNN. The worst.
Hillary is a very dishonest person. If you look at the things she says, I mean, they’re so dishonest.
I think Brenan is a very bad guy. And if you look at it, a lot of things happened under his watch. I think he’s a very bad person.
And of course, the legendary low IQ, Maxine Waters. Low IQ person.
It was very polarized under President Obama, unbelievably polarized under President Obama.
They’ll go to a person holding a sign, who gets paid by Soros or somebody.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: You know, obviously the White House is pushing back. They refuse to accept any kind of linkage. What do you do in law enforcement?
What do you think about that? And, of course, the president has said that a lot of the anger in the tweet is purposely the false and inaccurate
reporting of the mainstream media. In other words, he’s saying that’s what’s causing the anger in the country.
KAYYEM: So, I still believe that the president of the United States has a unique role in this country, of setting a tone. And supporters of Trump
and defenders of the president, you know, are quick to remark in other instances that, you know, people love his straight talk, that they — that
his supporters love the way he talks, they — you know, that they relate to that.
So, it seems odd that they would say on the one hand, he speaks to them in a way that they like or they like to hear and that he’s not — you know,
that that language might not — might have an impact which could lead — there’s no direct line, which could lead an individual to do something like
this. It’s not a direct line. But it’s certainly, if you believe that the president of the United States has a moral tone to set the tone of the
country, of which we should believe that, then Donald Trump’s remarks are one that — are ones in which he could very well lower temperature —
AMANPOUR: So, to that point —
KAYYEM: — accusing the press or media.
AMANPOUR: To that point, both the Republican Governor, John Kasich, and the Democratic Governor, Andrew Cuomo, have called for a restraint, for a
pulling back from the brink. A bipartisan group of governors, and everybody is saying that. Do you think there’s a possibility of a reset of
dialogue between the press and the president, between the president and his political opponents, a cease-fire?
KAYYEM: I don’t think so. And that’s unfortunate to say. I mean, I just think because — well, yesterday, the president said all the rights things,
this morning, he woke up attacking an, essentially, an institution that had received, you know, one of the bombs, right, and was the subject or the
focus of a potential terror attack.
The tone may come from the ground up at this stage. But —
AMANPOUR: Right.
KAYYEM: — the tone you have to remember is not just about what the American public feels, right, it’s also about how those working hard, the
first responders are feeling right now. They need their heads down, focused on finding who this person is more than worrying about the
atmospherics of politics right now.
AMANPOUR: It’s an incredible story, Juliette, thank you so much for weighing in for us.
Now, a world of challenges, of course, ahead for the United States. But what will the government look like after the midterms?
It’s not just America paying attention but many around the world, trying to read America’s political tea leaves. There are tight races across the
United States. But few are as watched as Florida.
The famous swing state is in a tumultuous fight to the finish between Democrat, Andrew Gillum, and Republican, Ron DeSantis. They both want to
be governor. And watch the sparks flying as race was raised in their debate last night.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RON DESANTIS, FLORIDA REPUBLICAN CANDIDATE FOR GOVERNOR: I will represent all the people, everyone will get a fair shake. But I am not going to bow
down to the altar of political correctness, I’m not going to let the media smear me like they like to do with so many other people.
ANDREW GILLUM, FLORIDA DEMOCRAT CANDIDATE FOR GOVERNOR: Sir, I’m going to stop it right there.
DESANTIS: And I’m certainly not going to take anything from Andrew Gillum.
GILLUM: Now, I’m not calling Ms. DeSantis a racist, I’m simply saying the racists believe he’s a racist.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Well, our Alicia Menendez sat down with two leading Florida journalists to break down the nuts and bolts of this swing state and the
issues. Patricia Mazzei from the “New York Times” and Marc Caputo from “Politico.”
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALICIA MENENDEZ: Thank you both so much for sitting down with us.
PATRICIA MAZZEI, Miami Bureau Chief, “New York Times”: Thanks for having us.
MENENDEZ: What is the biggest political story happening in Florida that you’re not hearing enough about?
MAZZEI: I think would you think the Senate race is the biggest story because the Senate hangs in the balance in Washington and we have a
competitive race here. But the governors’ race is really the one that has gotten the most attention.
MARC CAPUTO, REPORTER, “POLITICO”: Right. We’re seeing, for the first time ever, the Florida Democratic party or any major political party has
nominated an African-American to be its nominee for governor. You know, despite Florida’s multiethnic, multiracial culture, we haven’t seen that
before.
And so, you have a true, true blue progressive, kind of a Bernie Sanders mold with a little bit of Hillary Clinton and some Barack Obama in Andrew
Gillum and then he’s against a very Trump-y, pro Trump Republican in Ron DeSantis.
What’s interesting about this race is some people ask, well, where’s the middle? Well, there’s kind of no middle here. There’s an old joke that
says, what’s in the middle of the road? Road kill. And in this race, that’s probably what we’re going to see. It’s not that we’re a red state
or a blue state, we might be a schizophrenic state.
MENENDEZ: And that’s representative of the rest of the country right now, if feels like.
CAPUTO: That’s the point. Yes. And in addition to that, we actually might see Andrew Gillum, if the polling is right, the very progressive guy,
get elected governor. And then, very conservative Republican governor we currently have, Rick Scott, being elected to the United States Senate. So,
we’re looking at kind of a split decision here if the polling is right. But we just, in the end, don’t know.
MENENDEZ: When you look at the Senate race, why is an incumbent Democrat like Bill Nelson having so much trouble?
CAPUTO: Well, because he’s in part running in a purple state. This is not a blue state. It’s not a red state. Although, really, if you look at for
the midterms, this is the time when Republicans excel. Also, Bill Nelson is against Rick Scott. This guy is richer than (INAUDIBLE). He so far
spent $40 million of his own money in the race, and we’re looking at tens of millions more than Rick Scott might spend.
Florida’s is not one state, it’s 10 states, that’s 10 media markets. In order to campaign here, you don’t go to diners, you advertise on
television. That cost a lot of money, as much as $3 million a week. So, that’s a big part of the equation. We also have a lot of White retirees
who tend not only to move to Florida and want to vote but they vote Republican and they vote Republican often.
MENENDEZ: With the influx the Puerto Ricans that have come into the state following Hurricane Maria, are they poised to actually make a difference in
this election?
MAZZEI: I am skeptical. Not because Puerto Ricans don’t want to be a political force but because the ones who have arrived since Maria, in many
cases, are still trying to settle in and have bigger priorities than voting. And they come from an island where there are no midterm election.
So, they don’t have the culture of voting every two years, they vote every four years.
MENENDEZ: But they have a heavy culture of voting during those four years.
MAZZEI: They do. But Trump is not on the ballot. We’re just talking about candidates who are Trump-ian, but it’s not the same as having Trump
at the ballot. So, if they’re upset at the president for the hurricane response, it’s not like a direct link.
And in general, the Puerto Ricans who have been here before Maria had tended not to vote as much as they could. They’ve underperformed in
elections. And think until we see that change, it’s going to be hard to say, “Oh, my God, they’re going to be a huge force.”
CAPUTO: Governor Rick Scott has done a fabulous job of telling Puerto Rican voters that he cares. And if we saw, at least, in the early polling,
he’s been successful in doing that. What we don’t know is not only what these new voters from Puerto Rico are going to do, but the older ones who
are here, they’re now being paid attention to. They’re now being told, “Look, you matter. Show up and vote.”
And I think we might start seeing a change in their turn-out patterns, which we haven’t seen before. As far as the Hispanic community in Florida,
it’s not one Hispanic community, it’s a bunch. But the bulk is Cuban- Americans. Cuban-Americans have a fantastic voting right. And slowly you’re starting to see the Cuban-American Republicans in South Florida
starting to be counterbalanced by the Puerto Rican voters who are Democratic-leaning in Central Florida. We don’t know how it’s going to mix
out.
MAZZEI: And what Governor Scott has done well that I think other Republicans have tried to do here as well, which maybe people haven’t seen
in the rest of the country might be surprised by, is that he has campaigned to each nationality differently as opposed to treating Latinos like one
homogenous group that you just speak to them in in Spanish. He goes to Colombian Independence Day event and he goes to a Puerto Rican round table,
where the focus is not just Latinos in general, “But, oh, we’re going to talk about your specific issue.”
And people really respond well to that because they don’t feel like they’re just lumped in as part of a big group but like somebody is actually — even
if they can’t do much. Because, you know, the governor of Florida doesn’t set foreign policy, they can at least listen to them and they feel heard.
MENENDEZ: So, understanding that younger Cuban-Americans are trending more progressive than their older forbearers, do Cubans still set a firewall for
Republicans in South Florida?
MAZZEI: I would say that one of the surprises we’ve seen from 2016 to now is there were a lot of skeptical Cubans towards Trump because they had to
come off of this fractious Republican primary where Trump defeated Jeb Bush and Marco Rubio who were like the local favorite sons. Especially Rubio,
who is Cuban-American. And so, there were some Cubans who maybe didn’t vote for president or voted Democrat or just didn’t know what to do. Wrote
in Jeb Bush, you know.
But now, they’re sort of — they’ve consolidated in many cases behind Trump because the Republican party of Florida has become the Republican party of
Trump. And so, they are much more comfortable saying that they’re going to support him and I think you’re going to see that in some Congressional
races where local Republicans in Miami, especially, have more Cuban support than they might have had in 2016.
CAPUTO: And I think the only politician from the Democratic side of the aisle that kind of cracked the Cuban puzzle was President Obama. He was
able to get those younger voters out. And I think that was more of a function of him being kind of a transformational figure. And therefore,
younger voters, regardless of ethnicity or race, came out, voted for him.
Maybe Andrew Gillum will have that effect. I’m not sure. One of the things about Andrew Gillum’s candidacy in the governor’s race is that he
doesn’t seem to have had enough money and enough time to message as deeply as you would and as deeply as you can in a presidential race. So, we might
be looking at a lower turnout race here. And because it’s a midterm, using midterm races in Florida have a lower turnout than a presidential race.
MENENDEZ: So, when you look at Gillum and DeSantis and they’re not necessarily bringing moderates to the table, who are they appealing to?
What is the appeal of each candidate?
MAZZEI: Gillum is appealing, in some cases, to people who don’t usually vote in midterms. We saw in the primary that he brought out some young
voters, some non-White voters that were unusual to see on the voting roles, we’ll see if he continues that for the general.
And his — and I think his key appeal to a lot of these folks is that he’s very likable. I mean, he has the charisma that is sort of difficult to
teach and to learn as a politician. And DeSantis is bringing out people who voted for Trump and who are solid conservative Republicans and want to
see the state remain red. And Florida usually votes red in midterms, which I think is hard for people to realize because we’re such a purple swing
state, the largest swing state in the country in presidential years. It doesn’t usually act that way in midterm.
CAPUTO: DeSantis’ message is just two things, it’s, “I’m going to stay the course and Andrew Gillum is a corrupt copier.” And this is essentially his
message that he’s —
MAZZEI: That’s he’s a radical.
CAPUTO: Right. That you saw in his first debate. And, you know, you can’t trust Andrew Gillum. You’re seeing some of the similar messaging
used against Barack Obama that’s being used against Andrew Gillum. It’s one of those things that leads some Democrats, especially African-American
Democrats to think it is kind of a race-based attack.
And in fact, one of the things that characterized the peculiarity of the governor’s race at the very beginning of the general election, was the day
after Ron DeSantis, when interviewed on “Fox,” had said that he didn’t want voters to monkey this up when it came to this election. And a lot of
Democrats and a lot of African-Americans perceived that as a racial slur against Andrew Gillum who again is the first African-American nominee for
governor in the Florida Democratic party or any major Democratic party.
And for about a month, we had a lot of racial tension. One of the things that you saw from the 2016 presidential race, which we didn’t really see in
Florida before, is how racial messaging can actually work for Republicans. You saw that with President Trump. And there was a strong white turnout
for him that we hadn’t really seen before.
And there’s a school of thought among Conservatives in Florida, that look if Andrew Gillum wants to talk about race and Andrew Gillum wants to make
this a referendum about race and accuse Ron DeSantis of race-baiting which he essentially did during the first debate, that’s actually going to turn
out more white voters. And that’s an element we have very little experience in kind of gauging and we’re going to have to wait until
election day to see if it’s effective.
MENENDEZ: You said that traditionally Florida votes red during a midterm election. Midterm elections at the same time are generally seen to be a
referendum on this president. How do those two dynamics comport in this election?
MAZZEI: I think this is a weird midterm because it’s an unusual president, in that he has inspired a lot of the left to become more active in
politics. And so that is what Democrats are banking on, which is that there will be people who are just going to vote for Democrats because
there’s a D next to their name and not an R and the president is a Republican.
More than in other midterm election which is sort of the emotions toward Trump are just very raw. But, you know, the election were happening right
in the middle of the immigration crisis, right where there was a lot of controversy over kids being separated from their parents. I think it would
have been easier to say, oh, that’s going to drive a bunch of people out because that was an issue that sort of pierced and cut through and
everybody knew about it and was talking about.
Do some of the other controversies that sort of take over Washington get trickled down to the average voter? I’m not sure. So that’s why, it’s
sort of like we’ll see if they’ll be able to actually tap into some of that, you know —
MENENDEZ: Then stepping away —
MAZZEI: — progressive resistance and get them to vote.
MENENDEZ: Stepping away then from the national environment when you are talking to Floridians, what are the issues in this state that are
motivating them to vote?
MAZZEI: Not some of the same issues that get talked about nationally. I mean in Florida the environment is a big issue. We had a summer where
water quality was a real problem. You had toxic algae.
MENENDEZ: Red tide.
MAZZEI: Red tide in the Gulf of Mexico that was killing a lot of fish and mammals, dead sea turtles by the hundreds and the thousands coming up on
the beaches. And then you had blue-green algae coming down from Lake Okeechobee and causing respiratory problems —
CAPUTO: It was disgusting stuff.
MAZZEI: — that it looks like pea soup. I mean — and so this is happening on both ends of the state, in a state where already climate
change is a big issue because you see tidal flooding and sea level rise threatening builders and affecting people’s insurance rates. So all of
those issues together, matter a lot more here and it matter to a lot of voters, much more than they would elsewhere in the country.
CAPUTO: We look at the polling they say health care is a big issue. Florida is a state that has an expanded Medicaid under Obamacare, 800,000
people lack health insurance that they otherwise would have gotten and Democrats have made a good, concerted effort to make that a big deal. It
does appear that when you put everything together, the environmental catastrophe of red tide, blue-green algae, there is even a brown tide, dead
whale shark on the beaches, dead dolphin.
President Trump’s relative lack of popularity in the state and then the issue of health care, it starts to look like a very bad toxic soup for
Republicans. Yet to their credit, they’re still holding on and that’s why we’re kind of hesitant to say oh, Rick Scott is going to win or lose.
MAZZEI: And they’re going to spend so much money between now and election day in these expensive TV markets that it’s going to be on slot.
MENENDEZ: I want to turn to an issue that I haven’t heard either of you speak about, which is the shooting in Parkland. A lot of enthusiasm and
energy especially from young voters in Florida. At the time that it happened, has that enthusiasm held?
CAPUTO: That’s a good question. I mean the fact that we didn’t mention it and the fact that it was so politically significant kind of reflects the
broader attention span, perhaps not just the political class, but also of voters in general. What Parkland did change this election season, was a
perception of guns. For the first time, it became politically safe and perhaps even politically necessary for Democrats to embrace gun control
full on.
MAZZEI: The fact that candidates are even talking about gun control [13:35:00] and not just Democrats. But in the first debate for governor,
you did not see Ron DeSantis give a huge pushback on the gun issue, which normally would have been like catnip for a Republican to go after. So they
have changed the tenor of the debate and the fact that it’s even coming up in debates and in ads, because we are seeing the gun ads come out.
We’re seeing some of the Parkland parents not in favor of gun control but who want to focus on school safety cut ads for Republicans. So it’s a
complicated issue. The fact that it’s being discussed or being called about or asked about in a debate I think is a change and we would not have
predicted in January.
CAPUTO: They also effectuated change at the state level. The Parkland shooting happened right in the midst of the Florida legislative session.
But the idea, if you would have told me a year ago — heck, if you would have told me on February 13, the day before the massacre, that Republican-
led legislature and Republican Governor Rick Scott would have supported gun control that would have raised the age limit for purchasing semiautomatic
or just long guns, that they would have put in what is known as a red flag law allowing police essentially to seize your guns if they think you are,
mentally unstable, I would have laughed you off the street. And those things not only were brought up, they passed in record time.
MENENDEZ: So looking forward to 2020. How much will the results of this midterm impact how each party thinks about their approach to the next
presidential election?
CAPUTO: If the Democrats lose both the governor’s race and the Senate race, you’re going to see a party in shambles. Because they were already
needing, to put it mildly therapy, after Hillary Clinton lost Florida. They didn’t think they would. And they had previously lost in the midterm
in 2014.
If you — if the Democratic party winds up losing three general elections in a row in Florida, we’re going to stop looking at Florida as a swing
state, this is going to start looking like a red state. If the Republicans lose, they’re going to blame their candidates. In the end, Governor Rick
Scott, while tremendously wealthy, and while he does have a good record of campaign on, is an awkward campaigner. And he’s still going against an
incumbent in Senator Bill Nelson.
And the gubernatorial race, to Patty’s point earlier, Andrew Gillum is very likable and charismatic candidate. Those words are not used to describe
the Republican nominee, Ron DeSantis. There are a lot of Republicans who know him from Congress, from the Foreign Delegation who don’t really like
him. So he’s not kind of a warm and fluffy guy.
MAZZEI: And in the governor’s race, if it plays out where Gillum does win, I think Democrats are going to have an argument nationally to make for
progressive candidates because that has always been the test case for him. Democrats here have usually put up a very centrist candidate for governor.
Last time, it was a former Republican.
And here they’re going all the way in on the progressive message. And if the progressive message bests the Trump acolyte message that is going to be
able to hold them parallel to 2020, to well, how do you run against Trump? This is one way to do it.
MENENDEZ: Thank you both so much.
MAZZEI: Thank you.
CAPUTO: Thanks.
AMANPOUR: Fascinating insight from our colleagues in Florida there.
But let’s face it, politicians will never be as popular as Hollywood stars. Cue stage right. Two-time Oscar winner Michael Caine is my final guest
tonight. His wide range has seen him shape-shift into a playboy in “Alfie”, a thief in the Italian Job and even Batman’s butler.
Now, at age 85, he’s reflecting at what he’s learned and what he wants to pass on from a life very well lived in his new book, “Blowing the Bloody
Doors Off.” When I sat down with Michael Caine recently, I found him as charming and as roguish as you might imagine, with soft spots in all the
right places.
So Michael Caine, welcome to the program.
MICHAEL CAINE: Thank you.
AMANPOUR: So this is not your first book. It’s your second book.
CAINE: It’s the third.
AMANPOUR: It’s the third.
CAINE: Third.
AMANPOUR: This one is called “Blowing The Bloody Doors Off.”
CAINE: Bloody Doors Off. I’ll tell you where that comes from.
AMANPOUR: Well, could it come from the film with the clip we’re going to show right now?
CAINE: The Italian Job.
AMANPOUR: Yes. Let’s watch.
CAINE: Yes.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Five, four, three, two, one, go.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You’re only supposed to blow the bloody doors off.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: It still brings a chuckle. So why do you call this Blow the Bloody Doors Off? Blowing.
CAINE: Blowing the Bloody Doors Off is how to make something out of your life. What it was, was [13:40:00] my view was this wasn’t going to be a
sort of third autobiography, which it would have been. This was a journey between me and the reader. It was you and me. And we were going to do
this together.
And it came about because I told these people saying I want to be rich and famous. You know, but what I felt was that you’ve got to find out what you
want to do and be the best possible person you can be at it. In my case, there are actors who are better than me, actors who are worse than me. My
only competition was me. I had to be better every time.
AMANPOUR: So let’s just go back to the unlikelihood of you getting to where you are today. Because if we go all the way back to 1933, when you
were born, and your parents who lived in what can only be described really as abject poverty.
CAINE: It was abject poverty. Yes. Yes. After the war, I was moved into a prefab because we got bumped out, which was a modern little cottage made
of asbestos. And this was the greatest thing that happened to me because I was 12-years-old and I had a house with an indoor toilet, a bathroom, a
refrigerator. I’ve never had anything. So my father was a village fish market porter and he used to take one out of every box so they didn’t
notice.
AMANPOUR: He used to take one out of every box that he was —
CAINE: Yes.
AMANPOUR: — to bring home?
CAINE: Yes, we’ve had loads of fish. He was quite well paid as a fish market porter but he was a gambler. So we never had a lot of money.
AMANPOUR: So all of that got frittered away?
CAINE: Oh, yes.
AMANPOUR: One of the most chilling passages about your childhood is when you were sort of farmed out once the war broke out and many people were
farmed out, right?
CAINE: They were called evacuees, people —
AMANPOUR: Evacuees.
CAINE: People took you in, in the country, away from your parents.
AMANPOUR: In the countryside?
CAINE: Yes, in the countryside. And many of them did it not out of compassion but for money. And that was unfortunate enough. I went to a
house, me and another boy called Clarence, and these people used to go away every weekend and they would lock us in the cupboard under the stairs with
a tin of sardines and a bottle of water.
And that changes you in life a lot, about how you see things. And for instance, from a charitable point of view, the charities I do are all for
children. I don’t do any charities for adults. It’s all kids.
AMANPOUR: And another thing that stayed with you — and not many people talk about this and I was really really interested to read it. You spent
time at war. You were drafted. You went to Post-World War II Germany as part of the occupiers.
CAINE: We were an occupation force in Berlin, yes, for a year. I was 18. And then they sent us to Korea for a year.
AMANPOUR: Which is really incredible. You were on the front lines. You were in a shooting war.
CAINE: I was his rifleman, yes.
AMANPOUR: And how scary was that?
CAINE: It’s terrifying. But one of the things about it was you — when you get to that situation, you’re a young man, you’re supposed to be brave
and all that. And then you’re in this situation and so you think to yourself when it starts, am I going to be a coward, you know, and run away?
And I was involved in an incident which I proved I wasn’t a coward. So it literally made a man of me.
AMANPOUR: Which is really —
CAINE: But I don’t recommend it.
AMANPOUR: No. But it’s the bedrock foundation, I would assume.
CAINE: Of me, yes, the Korean War.
AMANPOUR: Yes, of you, a hundred percent?
CAINE: I have no fear of anything because I have no fear that I’m a coward because I know I’m not.
AMANPOUR: So I’m going to play a little clip of your first breakout movie which was Zulu.
CAINE: Yes.
AMANPOUR: So it is about war, different war, different time. It was the famous Brits against the Zulus at Rock’s Drift. It’s an amazing story.
Phenomenal. I just want to play this clip.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hard work.
JOHN CHARLES: Damn hard work.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Still, the river cooled you off a bit now, eh? Who are you?
CHARLES: John Charles, royal engineer.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Twenty-four. That’s my post up there. You’ve come down from the column.
CHARLES: That’s right. They want a bridge across the river.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who said you could use my men?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: I hear a chuckle. What do you think seeing that? I mean you must have seen it a million times.
CAINE: Well, I think seeing that is I think how lucky I was I had an American director. It was directed by an American called Cy Endfield who
was living in England. And I was originally supposed to play the cockney corporal because I have a cockney accent.
And then the American director said can you do a Posh accent? And I said yes, I could do any accent. I’ve been in repertory for nine years, I play
a new part every week, you know. And so he gave it to me. But I swear to you that [13:45:00] no English director —
AMANPOUR: He have given it to you?
CAINE: Even if it had been a left-wing communist, it would not have given me that part. I promise you.
AMANPOUR: Then, of course, comes Alfie.
CAINE: Yes.
AMANPOUR: And that rockets you to a whole another level of stardom, not just here but also in the United States and elsewhere. I’m going to play
it case there is a little bit of the Cockney accent issue here.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALFIE: My name is —
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Alfie.
ALFIE: Alfie. I suppose you think you’re going to see the bleeding tomatoes now. Well, you’re not so you can all relax.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Alfie.
ALFIE: What time did your old man say he would be waiting for you at the station?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, never mind about him.
ALFIE: That’s just who I’m going to mind. Never spoil a good thing. That’s a thing you women can’t get in your heads. Come on now, enough as
good as a feast.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: What about the “it” that you called the women? It. I mean, you know, you were playing a pretty sexist misogynist kind of guy there.
CAINE: Oh, yes, the very typical of the young men then, yes. It’s beautiful, that one, you know.
AMANPOUR: It’s beautiful.
CAINE: They always say it, not she. It’s wonderful.
AMANPOUR: You write in this book how you have been sensitizing. You always were sensitized to the kind of unlevel playing field when it came to
women and men. Certainly, in your business, but all over.
CAINE: Oh, yes.
AMANPOUR: And we’re talking about this it” at the Me Too time. Reflect a little bit on that.
CAINE: Well, it is the ’60s that changed it all. You know, when women became stars as well as men. You know, there’s so many women, Julie
Christie and all that. They became stars as well. And also, the pill came along and so sexuality was more. They were no longer it, they were them.
AMANPOUR: You said about the situation, you said I always knew or I thought I knew about the casting couch. But to my regret and shame, I
never thought too hard about it.
CAINE: Well, my view of the casting couch is I worked with Harvey Weinstein three times. And I knew, we all knew he was a bit of a lad with
the ladies. My view of the casting couch was the actresses, the pretty young actress comes in. He tells you, you’ve got the part. Now, I want to
you do this. And she says, no. And he said, no. And he said, no, you haven’t got the part and she walks out.
I didn’t think in terms of anything of exhibition or any kind of assault or anything like that. It’s just that you didn’t get the part, you know. And
I never thought Harvey was like that. It was a big shock to me when all those women came out.
AMANPOUR: Do you think it’s a good thing for your industry and for all of us, actually that this is all coming out now?
CAINE: It’s a fabulous thing. You know why? Because no producer would dare to approach an actress over a part for another 50 years. It’s freed
the women. They don’t — you know no producer would dare now. How is he going to say, “Well, unless you sleep with me, you’re not getting the
part.” The actors would phone the next newspaper and it would be on every headline in the world in the morning.
AMANPOUR: So I’m really not mixing these two things. But it’s just slipped into my head that when you first went to be an actor, at these
various youth clubs and things in your youth, you were looking through the windows, you thought well that looks kind of nice. And you describe
yourself as a bit of a geeky, awkward sort of teen.
CAINE: Yes, I was.
AMANPOUR: And maybe that was a good place to go and get your first kiss.
CAINE: Yes, that was. Yes. I was in a youth club and I was — I went upstairs to play basketball on the roof and I passed this door with two
glass windows and I noticed it and wonder, I thought what is it about this and I realize it was full of all the prettiest girls in the club. And so I
just looked further, I wonder what they’re doing and they’d always be good looking and talking to each other and all that. I wonder what’s going on
in there.
And then one day, I fell through the door. I leaned on the door and fell in and they thought I’d come to join. I was about 12, 13, 14 and there was
a girl there that I wanted to kiss, you know. And the woman who ran the club said, “Come in. We haven’t got any men. There are no men in here.”
So I said, oh, all right. And I thought could we do a play, we get a love scene and I’ll get to kiss any of this. So I said, OK, I’ll join. So that
was the reason I became an actor, unfortunately.
AMANPOUR: And that is the reason, right? That was it?
CAINE: That’s why I became an amateur actor and went on in my life to do something I love because I loved acting once I started doing it. And then
that’s what — that was one of the lucky things for me is to be able to do a job that I would do for nothing and I got paid for it.
AMANPOUR: One always likes to know the personal life and the story behind the story. It is incredible in today’s world that you and your wife
Shakira have been married for [13:50:00] —
CAINE: Forty-seven years.
AMANPOUR: — forty-seven years, right. Nearly 50 years.
CAINE: Nearly 50 years, yes.
AMANPOUR: And it’s not normal, it’s not usual for many, certainly in Hollywood and look there she was when I think you first spied her.
CAINE: Yes. Oh, yes.
AMANPOUR: And there’s an amazing Maxwell House Coffee ad —
CAINE: Yes, it’s a coffee ad.
AMANPOUR: — that we’re going to run. Let’s have a quick run of that.
CAINE: You’re going to run the coffee ad?
AMANPOUR: Why not.
CAINE: Yes, right.
AMANPOUR: Why not? Yes.
CAINE: I love seeing it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My wife was so bent on helping the builder. Woman, I said, leave that poor man alone and make us some coffee. Not that kind
you’ve been buying, either. Instant Maxwell House Coffee. Red jar, good to the last drop. Maxwell House. The instant that tastes like — like
coffee. Be a good little Maxwell Housewife and we’ll be happy here for a long time. Maxwell House Coffee, instant and ground.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Oh my goodness. It’s not just Maxwell House and you saw it but it was really madman kind of. I mean be a good little Maxwell Housewife?
CAINE: Yes. Well, I saw that movie — that advert and I tracked her down through the advertising agency. Because I was watching it with my mate.
He’s dead now but my best male friend. And I’m a very good cook and we had been out in discos and jazzing around.
And then one night I said let’s stay in and watch television which we had never done. We never watched television. We said we’ll watch television
tonight. I watched the television. I went mad about this girl. And I thought she was Brazilian because it’s a coffee in Brazil.
And I said, Paul, let’s go to Brazil. I had plenty of money. I was doing very well in the movies. I said, Paul, let’s go to Brazil in the morning
and I’m going to find her. And then I got all excited and I said, well, let’s go down to the disco. One of my best friends had tramp which is a
fabulous disco. We go down and have a drink.
We were sitting there, having a drink with Johnny. Another guy came in that we knew and he said hello. He said three guys without a girl, what’s
going on? I said, no, no, I just came in. I’ve been watching television all evening and I’ve seen the most beautiful girl I’ve ever seen and I’ve
got to go and find her. She’s in Brazil. I’m going to Brazil in the morning.
He said I’ve been watching television all night. He said I haven’t seen any beautiful women. I said she wasn’t in a show. She was in a
commercial. He said what for? I said Maxwell House Coffee. He said we do that. I said, do you? I said, you mean the girl in the Maxwell House
Coffee? And said yes. He said she’s not Brazilian, she’s Indian. And he said she’s not in Brazil. She lives in London. And I got the phone number
and I phoned her and she told me to F-off.
AMANPOUR: She told you? So how did you win her over then?
CAINE: I kept going. What happened was, it’s something I often think about is I’ve been married very, very happily for 47 years. And on the
last night that I phoned her, I decided this is it. I’ve been phoning her now I think for 10 or 1 1 nights. I phoned her every night and she told
me, she didn’t say f-off, but she told me to go away.
And then on this, on the 11th night I went, that’s it. If she doesn’t come out with me tonight, forget it. And what she did decided I found out later
was she was fed up with it and so what she was going to do is come out with me just for one night and get it over with and then stop me phoning. And
that’s what happened, you know.
But if either of us had changed our mind, that’s 47 years are the happiest years of my life would have gone. It’s amazing.
AMANPOUR: It is amazing.
CAINE: It’s quite incredible what life does for you.
AMANPOUR: You write about how, part of how you stayed together or how you kept the flame alive. Shakira has always come with me on location, not so
much to keep an eye on me or for me to keep an eye on her, but so that our lives would stay intertwined.
CAINE: Yes. If you spend a lot of time away from each other, you get to meet people the other one doesn’t know. You know? And I’m not saying
anything like women or being unfaithful with men or something. But just friends, you just make friends that the other person doesn’t know. And
movies, three months, two and three months long, you can get into a whole load of habits.
So when you come back together again, you’re two slightly different people than the ones you started with. And that can — if you’re not careful, you
know, cause a wider incision the whole time.
AMANPOUR: But beyond that, she did actually you say, save your life. You were in a pretty bad heavy drinking phase of your life.
CAINE: I was drinking quite heavily. I mean I have a vodka at breakfast.
AMANPOUR: What?
CAINE: Yes. Once I met her, I — to this day, I never drink in the daytime. I only have a glass of wine with food and I never drink on an
empty stomach.
AMANPOUR: Very wise words.
CAINE: Yes.
AMANPOUR: Very wise words indeed. And on that note, sir Michael Caine, thank you so very much indeed. Blowing The Bloody Doors Off.
CAINE: Thank you so much. You’ve been very kind. Thanks a lot, Christiane.
AMANPOUR: A master class if ever there was one.
And that is it for our program tonight. Thanks for watching.
END