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>>> HELLO, EVERYONE WELCOME TO AMANPOUR & COMPANY .
HERE IS WHAT IS COMING UP.
>> WE HAVE TO TURN DOWN THE HEAT ON U.S., CHINA RELATIONS SO SAYS CALIFORNIA GOVERNOR AND DEMOCRATIC HEAVYWEIGHT, GAVIN NEWSOM, SPEAKING TO ME FROM BEIJING.
>>> PLUS, KAITLYN COLLINS ON WHAT REMAINS AFTER SLAUGHTER IN ISRAELI.
>> AND THE HELLHOLE THAT IS GAZA AND THE CONTINUOUS ISRAELI BOMBINGS.
AND THEN MICHELLE MARTIN SPEAKS TO HISTORIAN ON THE EVOLUTION OF HAMAS.
FINALLY THE INTERSECTION OF TECHNOLOGY AND LONELINESS AND I SPEAK TO RENOWNED RELATIONSHIP THERAPIST ESTHER FOR L. >> AMANPOUR & COMPANY AND COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, CANDACE AND WE ARE.
THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LAYLA AND MICKEY STRAUSS , JIM ATWOOD AND JUST LESLIE WILLIAMS.
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COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.
BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.
ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.
THANK YOU.
>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
BEFORE THE CATASTROPHE AND THREAT OF WIDER WAR IN THE MIDDLE EAST, THE UNITED STATES WAS THROWING ITS STRATEGIC WEIGHT AT ITS CHINA PROBLEM.
TODAY CALIFORNIA GOVERNOR GAVIN NEWSOM TELLS ME FROM BEIJING THAT DIVORCE IS NOT AN OPTION.
SAYING THE U.S. AND CHINA NEED TO MANAGE STRATEGIC DIFFERENCES IN THEIR OFTEN CONTENTIOUS AND DEEPLY INTERCONNECTED RELATIONSHIP.
TODAY HE MET WITH PRESIDENT XI JINPING.
HE HOPES THAT THE VISIT WILL PAVE THE WAY FOR MORE COOPERATION BETWEEN BEIJING AND WASHINGTON.
GOVERNOR NEWSOM IS ON A WEEKLONG VISIT TO PROMOTE GREEN TECHNOLOGY AND ACTION ON CLIMATE CHANGE.
WE SPOKE EARLIER ABOUT THE GOALS OF THIS TRIP, BEING A BIDEN EMISSARY AND THE RAGING MIDDLE EAST WAR.
>>> YOU JUST MET WITH PRESIDENT XI BUT I WANT TO TALK TO YOU ABOUT YOUR FIRST STOP WHICH WAS IN ISRAEL AFTER THE TERROR ATTACKS ON OCTOBER 7th.
WHAT WAS THE PURPOSE OF YOUR VISIT?
>> I FELT LIKE I NEEDED TO DO SOMETHING MORE THAN JUST PUT OUT A STATEMENT CONDEMNING THE ATTACK.
MY PHONE LIT UP,, LIKE SO MANY, JUST WHAT WE COULD DO TO BE SUPPORTIVE.
I REPRESENT THE LARGEST STATE IN AMERICA.
I REPRESENT AN ECONOMY THAT WOULD BE THE FIFTH LARGEST ECONOMY IN THE WORLD, BUT I ALSO RECOGNIZE A STATE THAT HAS THE SECOND-LARGEST APPALACHIAN OF JEWISH AMERICANS.
I JUST FELT COMPELLED TO DO SOMETHING MORE SUBSTANTIVE.
I DECIDED TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE TRIP WHERE I WAS MAKING MY WAY OUT TO BEIJING AND I LEFT A DAY EARLY AND FLEW IN AT 4:30 TWO TEL AVIV AND I MET WITH THE PRESIDENT AND MET WITH PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU, HERE IS THE REAL REASON I WENT, THAT WAS A CHANCE TO MEET WITH SOME OF THE VICTIMS OF THE VIOLENCE INCLUDING MEETING THE FAMILY FROM CALIFORNIA, A YOUNG MAN WHO IS 23 WHO IS BEING HELD HOSTAGE.
I JUST FELT AS A HUMAN BEING I NEEDED TO BE THERE, AS A GOVERNOR WHAT A PRIVILEGE TO BE THERE AND PROVIDE SOMETHING MORE SUBSTANTIVE AND THAT IS WHAT WE ARE TRYING TO DO.
>> LET ME ASK YOU, YOU ARE IN BEIJING AND YOU ARRIVED INTO THE ATMOSPHERE, THE FOREIGN MINISTER WHO YOU ALSO MET WITH BASICALLY SAID PUBLICLY AFTER ABOUT A WEEK THAT ISRAEL HAS GONE BEYOND SELF-DEFENSE YOU CAN SEE HOW THE WORLD IS SHAPING UP AND DIVIDING OVER THIS TERRIBLE CRISIS.
DID HE SAY THAT TO YOU?
>> WE TALKED TO THE CHINESE FOREIGN MINISTER THIS MORNING AND WE TALKED ABOUT MANY THINGS AROUND THE GLOBE, INCLUDING WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THE MIDDLE EAST IN GAZA.
WE TALKED ABOUT OUR MUTUAL SUPPORT, I SPEAK FOR MYSELF IN THIS CONTEXT, A TWO STATE SOLUTION, REINFORCED BY THE MINISTER AS WELL.
HE WILL BE MEETING WITH JAKE SULLIVAN, HE IS LEAVING LATER THIS EVENING TO GO TO DC REGARDING THIS TOPIC.
YOU CANNOT BE A HUMAN BEING AND WATCH SOME OF THE IMAGES.
I WATCHED SOME OF THE IMAGES ON CNN OF A TEENAGE GIRL IN GAZA WHO WAS SHOWING A YOUNG GIRL, PROBABLY THE AGE OF MY DAUGHTER, WALKING THROUGH HER BEDROOM AND LOOKING OUTSIDE SAYING I CANNOT TAKE THIS.
THE HUMANITARIAN CRISIS IS REAL AND RAW AND WE DO NOT WANT THIS TO BE A REGIONAL CRISIS, I DO NOT THINK ANYONE DOES, INCLUDING THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT.
THIS IS A CHALLENGING TIME, BUT AT THE SAME TIME WE HAVE TO CALL TERRORISM TERRORISM.
WHAT HAMAS DID WAS PURE EVIL.
>> LET'S TALK ABOUT YOUR MEETING WITH PRESIDENT XI .
PRESENT BITING IS HOPING TO MEET HIM AT THE APEX SUMMIT NEXT MONTH IN YOUR HOME STATE IN SAN FRANCISCO.
IS PRESIDENT XI COMING?
DID HE COMMIT THAT HE WOULD BE COMING ?
>> WE HAD THAT CONVERSATION AND I WILL LET HIM ANSWER THAT QUESTION.
WE ARE HOPEFUL.
IT WAS A NICE VISIT TO MY MEANINGFUL AND SUBSTANTIVE EXCHANGE ON MANY ISSUES, ON A HUMAN BASIS, IT IS IMPORTANT THAT WE HAVE TO ENGAGE AGAIN, NOT WITH CLOSED FIST, BUT WITH AN OPEN HAND.
WE HAVE BEEN OUT HERE DOING THAT .
THESE WERE HIGH-LEVEL MEETINGS AND VERY CONSTRUCTIVE.
>> DID YOU GET A SENSE FROM HIM THAT THIS RELATIONSHIP IS HURTLING TOWARDS EVEN A HOT WAR OVER THE NEXT FEW YEARS OVER TAIWAN OR WHATEVER.
WHAT SENSE DID YOU GET FROM HIM OF THE RELATIONSHIP HE WANTS TO HAVE WITH AMERICA GOING FORWARD?
>> ON THE BASIS OF THE CONVERSATIONS THAT I HAD WITH THE VICE PRESIDENT, FOREIGN MINISTER AND OTHER MINISTERS TODAY, WE DISCUSSED NOT WITH PRESIDENT XI SPECIFICALLY BUT WE DID TALK ABOUT HUMAN RIGHTS REFERENCING WHAT IS HAPPENING THERE AND IN HONG KONG.
AS A RELATES TO THAT SPECIFIC QUESTION AND YOUR REFERENCE TO PRESIDENT XI, I FELT THE OPPOSITE TO BE CANDID I DO NOT WANT TO SAY WE ARE TURNING A PAGE, BUT IT WAS SIGNIFICANT.
SECRETARY OF STATE BLINKEN WAS OUT HERE, THE COMMERCE SECRETARY AND TREASURY SECRETARY, I WAS WITH AMBASSADOR BURNS TODAY.
THE FACT THAT WE HAVE ACCESS TO THESE HIGH-LEVEL MEETINGS, I WILL BE MEETING WITH FIVE PROVINCIAL GOVERNORS TOMORROW, I THINK IT SUGGESTS THAT WE ARE ENTERING A NEW PHASE.
THE LAST FEW YEARS HAVE BEEN VERY STRESSFUL AND I THINK THAT GOES TO YOUR QUESTION.
WE HAVE TO TURN DOWN THE HEAT.
WE HAVE TO MANAGE OUR STRATEGIC DIFFERENCES AND WE HAVE TO RECONCILE OUR STRATEGIC REDLINES THAT ARE WELL-ESTABLISHED BETWEEN OUR TWO COUNTRIES.
I WANT TO CALL THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION ON THE BASIS OF THE TALK THAT I HAD TODAY, I WANT TO APPLAUD HIS WILLINGNESS TO RECONCILE THOSE DIFFERENCES PEOPLE TO PEOPLE EXCHANGE, THE FACT THAT HE IS MEETING WITH THE GOVERNOR OF CALIFORNIA IS INDICATIVE.
>> PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS GONE OUT OF HIS WAY TO TELL EVEN RECENTLY THE UN, HE WANTS TO RESPONSIBLY MANAGE THE COMPETITION BETWEEN THE TWO COUNTRIES TO AVOID CONFLICT AND HE WANTS TO THE RISK AND NOT DECOUPLE.
ARE THEY GETTING THAT MESSAGE?
DID YOU PUT THAT MESSAGE TO THEM?
>> I REINFORCED THAT.
DIVORCE IS NOT AN OPTION.
WE HAVE TO DEFINE THE TERMS OF THE FUTURE AND WE HAVE TO LIVE TOGETHER WITH OUR DIFFERENCES.
I HAVE FOUR YOUNG KIDS, I DO NOT WANT TO SEE THIS RELATIONSHIP DETERIORATE, IT SERVICES NO ONE.
1.4 BILLION PEOPLE PRAYED WE GOT THE ISSUE OF CLIMATE CHANGE AND THERE IS NO SOLUTION TO THE CLIMATE CHANGE CRISIS WITHOUT THE COOPERATION OF CHINA,.,..
WITH RELATION TO YOUR KIDS AND MY KIDS WE HAVE TO RECONCILE THESE DIFFERENCES.
COMPETITION IS GOOD IT IS HEALTHY.
I TALKED ABOUT THAT, IT IS THE REASON WHY CALIFORNIA IS THE FIFTH LARGEST ECONOMY IN THE WORLD.
DE-RISKING IS DIFFERENT THAN DECOUPLING.
I WAS IN WITH PRESIDENT BIDEN THAT RESPECT, TO ME IT IS NOTHING OTHER THAN DIVERSIFICATION.
WHAT PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS DONE IS MASTER CLASS POLICYMAKING.
THE MOST SIGNIFICANT REFORMS AS A RELATES TO INFRASTRUCTURE, AND OF COURSE THE IRA, $369 BILLION TO INVEST IN SUPPLY- CHAIN DIVERSIFICATION.
I THINK THE PRESIDENT HAS IT RIGHT BUT I THINK HIS RHETORIC IS SPOT ON.
NOT BECAUSE I'M PAID BY THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION TO DO THAT.
I AM NOT A MEMBER OF THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION, BUT I BELIEVE IN THE PRINCIPLES THAT HE IS ADVANCING AND I BELIEVE THEY ARE FOUNDATIONAL PRINCIPLES TO ADVANCE OUR RELATIONSHIP.
>> I THINK THE CHINESE ARE VERY EXERCISED ABOUT THAT.
THEY DO NOT LIKE EXPORT CONTROLS ON KEY TECHNOLOGIES AND SEMI CONDUCTORS, DID THEY BRING THAT UP TO YOU?
I KNOW THEY BROUGHT IT UP WITH PREVIOUS SECRETARIES WHO VISITED.
>> NOTHING WAS OFF LIMITS, ON THE ISSUE SEPARATE AND ABOVE FROM THE CHIPS AND SCIENCE ACT ITSELF AND THE LEGISLATIVE ACCOMPLISHMENTS AND THE BILLIONS OF DOLLARS HAPPENING DOMESTICALLY IN THE UNITED STATES, A FEW PEOPLE ARE MORE IMPACTED FROM FIDUCIARY RESPONSIBILITY IS GOVERNOR OF CALIFORNIA, WE MANUFACTURE THESE CHIPS ON THE WEST COAST SO I DEEPLY UNDERSTAND WHEN IT COMES TO THESE HIGH-VALUE CHIPS.
BUT I ALSO UNDERSTAND WHAT SECRETARY BLINKEN SAID A FEW WEEKS AGO AND HE SAID IF THE SHOE WAS ON THE OTHER FOOT HE WOULD NOT BE SURPRISED IF CHINA DID THE SAME THING AS A RELATES TO NATIONAL SECURITY.
THAT IS A FOUNDATIONAL REDLINE FOR BOTH NATIONS, NATIONAL SECURITY.
I THOUGHT PRINCIPLE IN TERMS OF WHAT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION AND THE COMMERCE SECRETARY IS DOING.
OBVIOUSLY THAT WAS BROUGHT UP, THERE IS ANXIETY IN THAT SPACE.
ONE OF THE FIRST MEETINGS I HAD WAS NOT EVEN WITH THE FOREIGN MINISTER OR THE PRESIDENT BUT A PROVINCIAL GOVERNOR FELT IMPACTED BY THE PROSPECT OF WHAT THAT WOULD MEAN FOR HIS ECONOMY.
I THINK ISSUES OF NATIONAL SECURITY ARE SACROSANCT.
THAT IS A TABLE THAT WE CAN SET WHEN WE DIALOGUE IN A RESPONSIBLE AND RESPECTFUL MANNER.
>> ABOUT THE CLIMATE BECAUSE THAT IS THE MAIN PURPOSE OF YOUR VISIT.
THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION CLIMATE CZAR, FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE JOHN KERRY CAME AWAY REALLY DISAPPOINTED TRYING TO GET THE CHINESE ON BOARD WITH REAL RESPONSIBLE PARTNERSHIP ON THIS, WERE YOU ABLE TO SEE ANY DESIRE TO DO MORE ON THE CLIMATE ISSUE?
WHICH THEY HAVE TO DO IT IT CANNOT BE DONE BY ONE COUNTRY ALONE, THEY HAVE TO BE A PARTNER.
>> THE AND DRC WHICH RUNS THE FIVE-YEAR ECONOMIC PLAN AND THE CLIMATE PLAN, THE MINISTER AND I MET THIS MORNING PRAYED HE PERSONALLY SIGNED AND I SIGNED A NINE PART MEMORANDUM OF UNDERSTANDING SPECIFICALLY TO ADVANCE OUR EFFORTS TO CHANGE AND PRODUCE ENERGY.
WE ARE MAKING PROGRESS.
IT IS ONE OF MANY ML USE THAT WE ARE ADVANCING.
THE NATIONAL FRAME HERE IN CHINA AND MANY OTHERS AT THE NATIONAL LEVEL NO REAL PROGRESS IS BEING MADE.
LET ME APPLAUD SENATOR KERRY, I TALKED TO HIM TWO NIGHTS AGO ON THIS TOPIC, THE WORK HE IS DOING ON METHANE AND THE WORK HE IS DOING ON COAL PRODUCTION AND OUR COLLECTIVE WORK THAT WE ARE DOING TO TALK ABOUT STRATEGIES AND RELIABILITY THAT DO NOT REQUIRE COAL, AND FOCUS ON NEW TECHNOLOGY LIKE BATTERY TECHNOLOGY, METHANE TECHNOLOGY IN TERMS OF MITIGATION AND REDUCTION.
WE ARE BUILDING ON THAT.
I DO NOT WANT TO OVERSTATE IT BUT I FEEL REAL PROGRESS IN THIS SPACE, AGAIN BUILDING ON THE FRAMEWORK OF COLLABORATION THAT WAS ADVANCED BY PRESIDENT XI AND PRESIDENT OBAMA BIDEN THEMSELVES.
>> CAN I ASK YOU ABOUT DEMONSTRABLE DYSFUNCTION IN THE AMERICAN SYSTEM, WE STILL DO NOT HAVE A HOUSE SPEAKER, THAT MIGHT CHANGE IN THE NEXT 24 HOURS, WHO KNOWS.
WE KNOW THAT PRESIDENT XI WAS HOSTING PRESIDENT PUTIN IN A KIND OF ANTI-AMERICAN AXIS WHEN PRESIDENT BIDEN WAS IN ISRAEL.
DO THEY THINK THEY HAVE A LEG UP ON AMERICA THAT AMERICA IS AN IRREVERSIBLE POLITICAL DECLINE?
>> I DON'T KNOW IF THEY BELIEVE THAT, I MADE THE POINT NEVER COUNT AMERICA OUT, QUITE THE CONTRARY.
I WILL SAY THAT ARROGANTLY AND I DO NOT SAY THAT TO TALK DOWN ANYBODY, DO NOT COUNT OUT AMERICA.
WE ARE IN ECONOMIC TENTPOLE IN THE ECONOMY RIGHT NOW AND WE ARE IN GOOD HANDS WITH PRESIDENT BIDEN.
WE ARE NOT IN GOOD HANDS WITH THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IT IS A CLOWN SHOW.
THEY CANNOT MANAGE THEMSELVES.
WHAT AN EMBARRASSMENT.
AS A DEMOCRAT I AM NOT SURPRISED AS AMERICAN IT IS RATHER DISTRESSING.
WHEN YOU ARE AN AMERICAN OVERSEAS, THIS HAS REAL IMPACT GLOBALLY AND THEY BETTER GET THEIR ACT TOGETHER.
>> WHAT DO THEY SAY TO YOU, THE CHINESE, WHO ARE LOOKING AT AND MOST IDENTIFIED BY THE ADMINISTRATION, EVEN OBAMA, AS ONE OF THE MOST INTERNATIONAL RELATIONSHIPS TO PROPERLY MANAGE .
DO THEY THINK TRUMP MIGHT COME BACK?
EVERYBODY IS TALKING ABOUT HE HOW HE WILL BE THE NOMINEE AND IN CERTAIN STATES HE IS AHEAD OF PRESIDENT BIDEN, EVEN IN SOME SWING STATES AND WHAT DO YOU FEEL ABOUT THAT AND WHAT DID YOU TELL THEM?
>> I TALKED ABOUT WHAT IT WAS LIKE WORKING WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP AT THE TIME AS GOVERNOR DURING COVID.
WE HAD A INTERESTING AND POSITIVE WORKING RELATIONSHIP WHICH WAS FOR ANY DEMOCRAT IN THE UNITED STATES AT THE TIME.
I ALSO TALKED ABOUT HOW WE NEED TO CALL HIM OUT AND WE DID ON THE ISSUES OF CASINO PHOBIA AND THE ISSUES THAT LED TO HATE CRIMES AGAINST ASIAN AMERICANS AND HOW DISGUSTED I WAS ABOUT THAT AND THE IMPORTANCE OF RECONCILING THAT AND HOW IMPORTANT RHETORIC IS WITH OUR RELATIONSHIPS AND FRAME OUR FUTURE MORE BROADLY AND HOW WE NEED TO BE MORE RESPONSIBLE.
MY JOB WAS TO MAKE A CASE FOR STEADY LEADERSHIP OF THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION AND MAKE THE CASE FOR THE STEADY LEADERSHIP WITHIN MY PARTY, THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY.
I HAVE SAID THIS, I MIGHT BE PARTISAN, BUT I AM AMERICAN FIRST AND FOREMOST I COULD NOT BE MORE PROUD AS AN AMERICAN OF THE ACCOMPLISHMENTS OF THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION THE LAST TWO AND HALF YEARS AND I THINK THEY ARE RESPONSIBLY MANAGING THE RELATIONSHIP WITH CHINA.
I THINK THAT IS DEMONSTRABLE AND THE FACT THAT I HAVE BEEN RECEIVED AND WILL SUPPORTED HERE ON THIS TRIP AND THE FOREIGN MINISTER IS FLYING OUT TO MEET WITH MEMBERS OF THE ADMINISTRATION THIS WEEK AND HOPEFULLY A PACK CAN BE MEANINGFUL IN ADVANCING THAT RELATIONSHIP FURTHER WITH THE SUPPORT OF PRESIDENT BIDEN.
>> SO MUCH DEPENDS ON THIS PRESIDENT AND HIS POLICIES.
WERE YOU ABLE TO ASSURE THEM THAT HE WOULD WIN AND DID THEY ASK YOU IF PRESIDENT BIDEN WOULD WIN?
WHAT DO YOU THINK WOULD BE THE CONSEQUENCE ABROAD WITH ANOTHER TRUMP TERM?
>> FAILURE IS NOT AN OPTION FOR US.
THE DEBATE WE ARE HAVING A WASHINGTON, D.C. AS RELATES TO THIS FOURTH ATTEMPT TO GET A SPEAKER IS AROUND SOMEONE WHO WANTS TO BE IN THAT POSITION WHO BELIEVES IT WAS STOLEN.
WE ARE TALKING ABOUT DEMOCRACY, I WAS TALKING ABOUT DEMOCRACY TODAY, WE WANT MORAL AUTHORITY WHEN WE DO THAT.
GLOBALLY THESE ARE IMPORTANT QUESTIONS FOR HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF AMERICANS.
THESE ARE IMPORTANT QUESTIONS THAT ULTIMATELY WILL BE ANSWERED NEXT YEAR.
THAT IS WHY I'M WORKING HARD EVERY DAY, EVERY WAY PERSONALLY AND PRIVATELY IN EVERY CAPACITY ROLE WHETHER I'M HOME OR ABROAD IN MAKING THE CASE FOR THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION.
>> MANY LOOK AT CHINA AND SEE THAT IT IS POTENTIALLY AN ECONOMY IN DECLINE AND THERE IS THIS ORGANIZATION THAT MAY GO BANKRUPT, DO YOU FEEL THAT?
ARE THEY WORRIED ABOUT THEIR ECONOMY?
AND WHAT MIGHT THAT HAVE AS A CONSEQUENCE TO THE WORLD OR U.S.?
>> CHINA IS WORRIED ABOUT THEIR ECONOMY AND THEIR INTENTIONALITY AS WELL AS ESTABLISHING THEIR FIVE-YEAR PLAN AND THE ROBUST GDP GROWTH OVER THE COURSE OF THE LAST 45 YEARS.
YOU LOOK BACK TO 1978 WHEN THIS COUNTRY OPENED UP WITH FREE TRADE AND EXCHANGES IT HAS BEEN AN EXTRAORDINARY SUCCESS STORY PRETTY THE HOUSING BOOM BUST, IT IS NOT UNIQUE TO CHINA BUT IT IS CHALLENGING AT THE MOMENT , WHAT HAS OCCURRED AS IT RELATES TO REALITY, THE WORLD WE LIVE IN POST COVID.
THEY ARE DEEPLY MINDFUL OF THAT AND I THINK THAT IS PART OF THIS DESIRE TO TURN THE PAGE AND TO RENEW AND REINVIGORATE OUR WELL-ESTABLISHED RELATIONSHIP, INCLUDING, JUST ON PEDESTRIAN ISSUES OF TOURISM AND MORE FLIGHTS AND ENCOURAGING MORE INVESTMENT AND BEGINNING TO ADDRESS SOME OF THIS DIALECTIC THAT HAS OCCURRED IN THE LAST FEW YEARS.
I HAVE HOPE THAT APEC WILL BE A BIG SUCCESS.
THAT IS NO INSIGHT ON IF HE IS GOING TO MAKE IT OUT TO MY OLD CITY, SAN FRANCISCO, BUT THAT IS MY HOPE.
>> GOVERNOR NEWSOM, THANK YOU.
THAT WAS FASCINATING INSIGHT.
THANK YOU.
>> GREAT TO BE WITH YOU.
>> AS WE SAID, THE GOVERNOR STOPPED IN ISRAEL AND THEY ARE TODAY MANY PEOPLE CONTINUE LAYING THEIR LOVED ONES TO REST.
THE GRIEF, THE AGONY AND THE ANGER ARE ALL PALPABLE.
MANY ARE STILL IN DEEP SHOCK AND MOURNING AS WE CONTINUE TO LEARN MORE ABOUT THE HARROWING EVENTS OF OCTOBER 7th.
PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU CONTINUES TO SAY A GROUND INCURSION INTO GAZA IS COMING ON TOP OF A MASSIVE AIR CAMPAIGN.
KATE COLLINS VISITED, AND SAW FIRSTHAND THE AFTERMATH OF THE HORRIFIC VIOLENCE INSIDE PEOPLE'S HOMES.
A NOTE, SOME OF THESE IMAGES ARE DIFFICULT TO WATCH.
>> Reporter: IT SITS LESS THAN THREE MILES AWAY FROM THE GAZA ORDER.
A QUIET COMMUNITY WHERE RESIDENTS GROW AVOCADOS AND RAISE POULTRY.
>> AS THE SUN ROSE SATURDAY OCTOBER 7, THE, AROUND 300 PEOPLE CALLED HOME BECAME THE SITE OF A MASSACRE AS HAMAS MILITANTS STORMED INSIDE AND MURDERED 14 PEOPLE A KIDNAPPING FOR OTHERS MAJOR, WATCH FROM HOME AS THE BRUTAL ATTACK UNFOLDED THAT DAY.
HE WANTS THE WORLD TO BEAR WITNESS TO THE ATROCITIES FIRSTHAND.
>> THE SHOCK IS STILL THERE.
IT IS STILL HARD TO SEE.
>> Reporter: THE STENCH OF DEATH IS THICK IN THE AIR AS YOU WALK ALONG THE TREE-LINED STREETS.
IF YOU DID NOT LOOK CLOSELY YOU WOULD NEVER GUESS THAT A SLAUGHTER TOOK PLACE HERE.
THEN YOU NOTICE THE BULLET HOLE IN THE DOOR.
THE 90-YEAR-OLD GRANDMOTHER WHO LOVED GARDENING WAS IN HER BATHROOM WHEN HAMAS MILITANTS SHOT HER IN THE HEAD.
HER BLOOD IS SMEARED ON THE ENTRYWAY TWO WEEKS LATER.
>> IF YOU DID NOT LOOK OVER HERE IT WOULD LOOK LIKE A REGULAR HOME ON A SATURDAY MORNING, NEWSPAPER, MAIL, COOKIES, YOU LOOK OVER HERE AT THE KITCHEN AND YOU CAN SEE PEOPLE HAVE GONE THROUGH IT, THEY OPENED ALL THE CABINETS, THERE ARE STILL CUPS IN THE SINK , HER KETTLE IS STILL OUT AND GINA IS ONE OF SEVERAL WHO WAS BRUTALLY MURDERED ON THAT SATURDAY MORNING.
>> Reporter: THE ZACH FAMILY LIVED DOWN THE STREET, THE PARENTS, THEIR 14-YEAR-OLD SON WERE AT HOME WHEN THE ATTACK BEGAN.
THEIR OLDER CHILDREN WERE AWAY.
WE REACHED THE 24-YEAR-OLD ON FACE TIME.
>> WHAT WAS THROUGH THAT WINDOW?
>> Reporter: THIS IS THE FIRST TIME HE'S ABLE TO SEE THE CHARRED REMAINS OF HIS FAMILY HOME.
>> I FOUND MY DAD LAYING ON THE GROUND WITH THE DOG.
>> Reporter: THE BODIES OF HIS MOTHER AND LITTLE BROTHER WERE FOUND HUGGING EACH OTHER IN A NEARBY BOMB SHELTER WHERE THEY IS FIXATED AFTER MILITANTS SET THEIR HOME ON FIRE.
JUST DAYS BEFORE HE WAS DANCING HIS HEART OUT AT A BRUNO MARS CONCERT IN TEL AVIV.
>> I AM 24, WE HAVE TENURES BETWEEN US, IT IS HARD TO SEE MY LITTLE BROTHER.
>> Reporter: HIS SISTER ARNE NOW ORPHANS.
>> IT IS ABSURD TO ME THAT YOU GUYS ARE THERE AND NOT SOMEONE FROM ISRAEL.
MY KIBBUTZ IS AMAZING BUT THE GOVERNMENT , I HAVE NO WORDS TO DESCRIBE IT.
>> Reporter: 24 HOURS LATER, A IDF SOLDIER IS KILLED AND THREE OTHERS WOUNDED DURING A RAID AHEAD OF ISRAEL'S EXPECTED GROUND INVASION IN GAZA.
AND OMINOUS WARNING SIGN OF WHAT IS YET TO COME.
>> SO MUCH SUFFERING.
>>> IN GAZA, THE U.S. IS JOINING CALLS FOR A HUMANITARIAN PAUSE TO ALLOW AID TO ENTER.
THE UN SAYS THEY WILL BE FORCED TO SHUT DOWN IN THE COMING HOURS UNLESS FUEL IS DELIVERED.
FRANCE SAYS THEY ARE DISPATCHING , TO SUPPORT HEALTHCARE CENTERS IN GAZA.
ISRAEL CONTINUES TO BORROW FUEL AND REJECT CALLS FOR A CEASE- FIRE EVEN STEPPING UP CALLS FOR BOMBARDMENT.
A WARNING, SOME OF WHAT YOU ARE ABOUT TO SEE IS DISTURBING.
>> Reporter: THIS IS A WAR ON HAMAS ISRAEL SAYS, BUT IT IS THE PEOPLE OF GAZA WHO ARE PAYING THE HEAVIEST PRICE.
NO PLACE SAFE, NO PLACE SPARED ISRAEL'S WRATH.
DANGER LOOMS AROUND EVERY CORNER OF THIS LAND, EVERY DAY, EVERY MINUTE SPENT IN FEAR OF WHEN DEATH MAY STRIKE.
MANY NOW WRITE THEIR CHILDREN'S NAMES ON THEIR LEGS SO IF THEY ARE KILLED THEIR LITTLE ONES ARE NOT JUST A NUMBER.
ISRAEL SAYS THEY DO NOT TARGET CIVILIANS, IT IS HAMAS THAT IS USING THEM AS HUMAN SHIELDS.
THEY TRY TO AVOID CIVILIAN CASUALTIES, BUT THE NUMBERS AND PICTURES TELL A DIFFERENT STORY IN A PLACE WHERE IT IS THE INNOCENT WHO IS THE MAJORITY.
HOSPITALS, SCHOOLS, MOSQUES HAVE BEEN BOMBED AND ON FRIDAY GAZA ABSORBED ANOTHER HORROR, ONE THAT HIT THE TINY CHRISTIAN COMMUNITY.
AN AIRSTRIKE ON A BUILDING AT THE COMPOUND OF THIS ORTHODOX CHURCH, ONE OF THE OLDEST CHURCHES IN THE WORLD WHERE HUNDREDS SOUGHT REFUGE FROM THE RELENTLESS BOMBARDMENT.
THIS WAS NO SANCTUARY, A SCENE OF CHAOS AT THIS HOUSE OF WORSHIP WITH NO POWER THEY USE THEIR PHONES TO LIGHT UP THE RUBBLE AND DIG BODIES AND SURVIVORS OUT OF THE CARNAGE.
DAYLIGHT BROUGHT THE PAINFUL SCENES OF THOSE SEARCHING THROUGH SHATTERED BODIES FOR THEIR LOVED ONES, THE INCONSOLABLE GRIEF OF THOSE WHO FOUND THEM.
THE GUT WRENCHING GRIEF OF A FATHER MOURNING HIS CHILDREN AND A GRANDMOTHER HER LITTLE GEORGE.
>> WITH NO PRIOR WARNING THEY BOMBED CIVILIANS IN CHURCH.
THEY KILLED MY THREE CHILDREN, THEY KILLED MY COUSIN'S.
MY COUSIN'S FAMILY WAS WHITE.
>> Reporter: THE ISRAELI MILITARY SAID THE AIRSTRIKE WAS TARGETING A HAMAS COMMAND CENTER NEARBY AND SAID THIS WAS NOT THE INTENTION, WHAT THEY CALLED COLLATERAL DAMAGE.
17 CHRISTIANS, ENTIRE FAMILIES INCLUDING INFANTS PERISHED FOR A 26-YEAR-OLD VIOLA WAS KILLED ALONG WITH HER HUSBAND AND BABY GIRL AND HER SISTER, HUSBAND AND CHILDREN ALSO GONE.
>> UNBELIEVABLE.
WE ARE HERE 2000 YEARS, WE ARE NOT GOING TO LIVE.
WE WILL CONTINUE OUR LIFE AS ALL THE POPULATION.
>> SO MUCH GRIEF, SO MUCH ANGER AT THE SILENCE OVER THE SUFFERING AND THOSE WHO WILL NOT STOP THE BLOODSHED.
>> THIS IS A MESSAGE TO THE WORLD AND SPECIFICALLY TO BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.
HE SHOULD NOTE THAT THE CHRISTIAN COMMUNITY IN GAZA ARE BEING TARGETED, NO ONE IS SAFE HERE, EVERYONE IN DANGER.
OR MAXELL SHOCK SURVIVORS BUT CHRISTIANS AND MUSLIMS SET AROUND THE CHURCH THIS WEEKEND WITH SEEMINGLY NOWHERE LEFT TO RUN.
>>> MEANWHILE, ISRAEL HAS STOPPED ISSUING VISAS TO UN STAFF AND CALLED FOR THE RESIGNATION OF THE SECRETARY- GENERAL.
THIS AFTER HE SAID THE HAMAS ATTACK DID NOT HAPPEN IN A VACUUM.
ISRAEL'S FOREIGN MINISTER ALSO CANCELED HIS MEETING WITH THE UN CHIEF WHICH TODAY SAID HE WAS SHOCKED AT THE MISINTERPRETATION OF HIS STATEMENT.
AND THE SECURITY COUNCIL MEETING YESTERDAY HE PLAYED A RECORDING OF A HAMAS TERRORIST BRAGGING ABOUT KILLING JEWS .
>> I WOULD LIKE TO LISTEN TO THIS RECORDING.
[SPEAKING IN A NON-ENGLISH LANGUAGE] >> MANY ISRAELIS AND PEOPLE THE WORLD OVER ARE TRYING TO UNDERSTAND WHERE THIS BARBARITY CAME FROM.
TERRY IS A ANALYST, HISTORIAN AND AUTHOR OF HAMAS CONTAINED.
HE HAS WRITTEN ABOUT THAT ORGANIZATION FOR YEARS.
HE JOINED MICHELLE MARTIN FOR CONVERSATION ABOUT THE COMPLEX HISTORICAL AND POLITICAL DYNAMICS LEADING UP TO THE RAMPAGE OF OCTOBER 7.
>> THANK YOU.
THANK YOU FOR SPEAKING WITH US.
>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.
>> I JUST WANT TO MAKE IT CRYSTAL CLEAR THAT YOU ARE A HISTORIAN, YOU ARE NOT A SPOKESMAN FOR HAMAS YOU ARE NOT AN APOLOGIST FOR HAMAS YOU ARE A HISTORIAN WHO HAS STUDIED THE MOVEMENT FOR MANY YEARS.
WITH THAT BEING SAID, GIVE US THE SHORT COURSE ON HOW HAMAS DEVELOPED.
WHAT IS THE ORIGIN OF THE STORY?
>> HAMAS IS A CHAPTER OF THE MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD WHICH IS PRESENT THROUGHOUT THE MIDDLE EAST AND COMMITTED TO WHAT THEY CALL -- IT REALLY STARTED AS A SOCIAL NETWORK THAT LOOKS AT PROVIDING EDUCATIONAL FACILITIES, HEALTHCARE, CHARITABLE WORK, VOCATIONAL CENTERS AND IT EMBEDS ITSELF IN SOCIETY AS A MOVEMENT THAT WANTS TO HELP PALESTINIANS LIVE A VIRTUOUS ISLAMIC LIFE.
IN 1987, AT THE BEGINNING OF THE FIRST PALESTINIAN, WHEN PALESTINIANS ROSE UP AGAINST ISRAEL'S OCCUPATION, THAT ISLAMIC PARTY WHICH WAS PRESENT IN THE PALESTINIAN TERRITORIES SPAWNED OFF INTO WHAT CAME TO BE KNOWN AS HAMAS.
HAMAS IS THE HAS BEEN ISLAMIC RESISTANCE PARTY.
IT IS COMMITTED TO THE LIBERATION OF PALESTINE THROUGH THE USE OF ARMED STRUGGLE.
IT IS BELIEVED THE ONLY WAY ISRAEL IS COMPELLED TO END THEIR OCCUPATION IS THROUGH RESISTANCE AND ARMED FORCE.
>> IS THERE A PIVOTAL MOMENT WHEN HAMAS CREATED ITS OWN MOVEMENT AS IT WERE?
SORT OF APART FROM OTHERS THAT WERE THERE?
WAS THERE A PIVOTAL EVENT?
>> IT WAS THE BEGINNING OF.
HAMAS PARENTS, LET'S SAY THE MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD BELIEVED IN ONE THING, THEY BELIEVED IN ORDER TO ACHIEVE LIBERATION, PALESTINIANS NEED TO HAVE A SOCIETY.
IT FOCUSED ON THE SOCIAL ELEMENTS RATHER THAN POLITICAL OR MILITARY ELEMENT OF RESISTING THE OCCUPATION.
AT THE BEGINNING WE SAW PALESTINIANS ENGAGE IN POPULAR STRUGGLE THROUGHOUT PALESTINE AGAINST ISRAELI OCCUPYING FORCES AND ISRAEL RESPONDED WITH FORCE.
-- BEING CALLED ON THE ISRAELI ARMY TO BREAK UP THE PROTESTERS AND HERE WE ARE TALKING MOSTLY CHILDREN GOING OUT TO FIGHT WITH ROCKS AGAINST TANKS.
HAMAS AT THE TIME SAW THIS AS A VERY CRITICAL ESCALATION AND DECIDED THAT THE LONG-TERM PROJECT OF LIBERATION HAD TO BE SWITCHED ON ITS HEAD.
RATHER THAN, BEFORE LIBERATION THE GROUP DECIDED ACTUALLY THE WAY NOW IS TO ENGAGE IN ARMS RESISTANCE AGAINST ISRAEL OCCUPATION FORCES AS A MODE OF LIBERATING PALESTINE.
>> I UNDERSTAND FROM YOUR WRITINGS THAT YOU THINK CALLING HAMAS A TERROR GROUP MISREPRESENTS REALITY.
>> IT IS MANIPULATIVE TO USE THAT TERM BECAUSE IT, IT THE CONTEXTUALIZES HAMAS.
IT SUGGESTS THAT THEY ARE ENGAGING AND ARMED RESISTANCE FOR VIOLENCE FOR THE SAKE OF VIOLENCE.
IT MISSES THE POINT THAT HAMAS HAS ENGAGED IN ARMED RESISTANCE AGAINST A COLONIAL FORCE.
WHEN WESTERN POLICYMAKERS VIEW HAMAS AS A TERRORIST ORGANIZATION THEY ARE SUGGESTING THAT IT CAN BE DEALT WITH MILITARILY.
THEY ARE ALLOCATING THEIR RESPONSIBILITY TO -- >> A BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN HAMAS AND THE PLO IS PLO RECOGNIZED THE RIGHT OF ISRAEL TO EXIST AND HAMAS NEVER HAS HER THE WHOLE POINT OF HAMAS CHARTER, HAMAS MAKES CLEAR THE REFUSAL TO RECOGNIZE THE STATE OF ISRAEL AND ALSO IT HAS BEEN COMPLETE WITH ANTI-SEMITIC REFERENCES BUILT ON STEREOTYPES AND HOW ARE WE TO LOOK AT THAT?
OBVIOUSLY THE WAY THAT A NUMBER OF ANALYST LOOK AT THAT IS IT IS BLOODLUST AND THAT IT IS A FANTASY THAT ISRAEL WILL BE WIPED OFF THE FACE OF THE EARTH.
I WOULD JUST LIKE TO HEAR YOUR TAKE.
>> THERE ARE TWO POINTS AND BOTH ARE IMPORTANT.
THE FIRST IN TERMS OF THE PLO RECOGNITION OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL.
BEFORE THE PLO RECOGNIZES THE STATE OF ISRAEL IT TO ENGAGED IN ARMED RESISTANCE AND IT TOO WAS DEEMED TO BE A TERRORIST ORGANIZATION BY THE U.S. AND OTHER MEMBERS OF THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY.
TO DENOUNCE THE RESISTANCE AND THE STATE OF ISRAEL IN ORDER TO ESTABLISH THE STATE OF PALESTINE.
FAST-FORWARD THREE DECADES PALESTINIANS DO NOT HAVE A STATE THAT THEY HAVE MORE ENTRENCHED OCCUPATION.
THEY HAVE A REGIME THAT IS MORE FASCIST THAN IT HAS EVER BEEN IN HISTORY.
IT IS EXPANDING COLONIAL VALENT VIOLENCE AGAINST PALESTINIANS -- THE IDEA THAT THE RECOGNITION OF ISRAEL HAS PAVED THE WAY FOR PALESTINIAN RIGHTS HAS COMPLETELY UNDERMINED BY THE WAY THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY HAS REFUSED TO HOLD ISRAEL ACCOUNTABLE.
THE SECOND POINT IS HAMAS.
HAMAS SEES THE EXPERIENCE.
THEY UNDERSTAND THE RECOGNITION OF ISRAEL IS NOT GOING TO LEAD TO PALESTINIAN RIGHTS BECAUSE WE HAVE THAT HISTORY AND WE SEE THE TRACK RECORD.
THE BEST WAY TO SECURE PALESTINIAN LIBERATION IS THROUGH ARMED RESISTANCE.
AT THE NEGOTIATING TABLE, WHICH HAMAS HAS NOT DISMISSED, THEY HAVE TALKS ABOUT POSSIBLY NEGOTIATING BUT THAT HAS TO COME FROM A POSITION OF FORCE.
I WANT TO SAY ONE POINT ABOUT HAMAS ANTI-SEMITISM.
HAMAS IS CHARTER WAS ANTI- SEMITIC.
THEY ENGAGED AROUND TROPES AND THE JEWISH PEOPLE INCLUDING TEXT OF ZION AND DEALING WITH, AROUND THE JEWISH PEOPLE CONTROLLING THE MEDIA AND CONTROLLING WORLD POWERS.
THE MOVEMENT SINCE THE EARLY INCEPTION HAS EVOLVED QUITE SIGNIFICANTLY.
IN 2017 HE ISSUED A NEW DOCUMENT THAT IS TO REPLACE THE ORIGINAL CHARTER.
IN THAT DOCUMENT IT OPENLY DISTINGUISHES BETWEEN JEWS AND ZION NEST.
PROJECT OF LIBERATION IS AGAINST ZIONIST COLONIALISM .
>> WHAT I'M ASKING THOUGH, IS IS STILL DIVISION OF HAMAS THAT ISRAEL SHOULD BE ELIMINATED?
IF NOT, WHAT IS THEIR VISION OF WHAT SHOULD OCCUR?
>> THE WAY THAT HAMAS TALKS ABOUT ITS VISION, THIS IS NOT NECESSARILY THE VISION THAT IS SHARED BY MANY PALESTINIANS.
HAMAS'S VISION IS THAT IT WOULD LIBERATE PALESTINE.
WHAT THAT MEANS IS IT WOULD CREATE ESTATE AS IT DEFINES IT THAT IS GROUNDED IN ISLAM AND HAS ISLAM AS ITS FOUNDING PRINCIPLES UNDER WHICH JEWS, CHRISTIANS AND PALESTINIANS WOULD LIVE IN EQUALITY.
THAT IS HOW THEY DEFINE THEIR PROJECT.
WHAT THAT MEANS IN PRACTICE IS.
IT DOES NOT NECESSARILY MEAN THAT DESTRUCTION OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL AND THE WAY THAT IS MANIPULATED WHICH IS THROWING ISRAELI JEWS INTO THE SEA, THAT IS NOT PART OF THEIR POLITICAL PROJECT .
THERE ARE MEMBERS IN HAMAS THAT BELIEVE THEY SHOULD BE DOING THAT, BUT THE POLITICAL PROJECT AS THEY DEFINE IT IS THE CREATION OF THE STATE OF PALESTINE IN WHICH ALL THREE RELIGIONS CAN LIVE AND IT IS A STATE GROUNDED IN ISLAM.
>> WHY HAS IT HAMAS HAD ELECTIONS IN 17 YEARS SO THEY CAN DEMONSTRATE THEIR VISION FOR PALESTINE?
IF THEY HAD THE MEANS TO DEVELOP THIS COMPLEX SERIES OF TUNNELS UNDERNEATH THE STRIP WHICH HAS ALLOWED THEM TO MOUNT THESE ATTACKS, WHY HAVE THEY NOT BEEN ABLE TO INSTITUTE OTHER PRINCIPLES OF GOVERNANCE?
>> THAT IS A GOOD QUESTION.
IN THE LAST SET OF ELECTIONS THAT HAPPENED IN THE PALESTINIAN TERRITORIES, HAMAS WON THE ELECTIONS.
IT WAS CHOSEN BY THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE IN 2006 TO COME INTO A SYSTEM OF GOVERNMENT.
THOSE ELECTIONS WERE DEEMED FAIR BY INTERNATIONAL OBSERVERS.
WHEN WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE NEXT ROUND OF ELECTIONS, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT TWO THINGS, FIRST OF ALL WILL THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY INCLUDING THE U.S.
EXCEPT HAMAS AS THE VICTOR?
RIGHT NOW IN 2021 THE LAST, THAT IT WILL WIN.
THE SECOND QUESTION, TO HAVE DEMOCRATIC ELECTIONS IT HAS TO BE IN PALESTINE THAT MEANS INCLUDING THE WEST BANK AND THE GAZA STRIP.
RIGHT NOW, THE ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER IS SPEAKING, NOT ME, HE HAS OPENLY ENDORSED THE POLICY OF SEPARATING THE GAZA STRIP FROM THE WEST BANK.
ALL EFFORTS TO ENGAGE IN A UNITY GOVERNMENT OR TO ENGAGE IN DEMOCRATIC ELECTIONS ARE UNDERMINED BY ISRAELI AUTHORITIES.
>> YOU HAVE A PIECE IN THE NEW YORK REVIEW OF BOOKS THAT I FOUND FASCINATING.
YOU SAID THERE IS SOMETHING OF A SYMBIOTIC RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE NETANYAHU GOVERNMENT AND HAMAS.
ONE POINT THAT YOU MADE IS THE VERY ISOLATION THAT THE NETANYAHU GOVERNMENT HAS INSTITUTED AND MAINTAINED OVER THE GAZA STRIP ACTUALLY ALLOWED GAZA TO DEVELOP RESISTANCE MOVEMENT MORE THOROUGHLY.
COULD YOU SAY A LITTLE MORE ABOUT THAT?
>> I THINK IT IS AN IMPORTANT QUESTION.
OVER THE PAST 16 YEARS ISRAEL'S POLITICAL ESTABLISHMENT AND CERTAINLY THEIR MILITARY ESTABLISHMENT BELIEVE THAT THEY CAN CONTAIN HAMAS IN THE GAZA STRIP.
THEY BELIEVE THEY CAN TOLERATE AND EVEN ENABLE HAMAS TO OPERATE AS THE AUTHORITY IN THE HAMAS -- GAZA STRIP.
THAT WOULD ALLOW ISRAEL TO DEFLECT THE RESPONSIBILITY OF OCCUPYING FORCE.
BY PLACING HAMAS OR ALLOWING HAMAS TO CONTINUE TO EXIST AS A GOVERNING ENTITY IN THE GAZA STRIP IT WOULD, FROM THE REST THE PALESTINE.
IN SO DOING ESSENTIALLY -- 2 MILLION PALESTINIANS FROM UNDER ITS CONTROL.
TO MAINTAIN HAMAS AS A GOVERNING AUTHORITY, ISRAEL RELIES ON SOMETHING THE MILITARY ESTABLISHMENT CALLS.
WHICH MEANS THAT EVERY FEW YEARS IT WOULD CARRY OUT A MILITARY ASSAULT ON THE GAZA STRIP TO TRY TO UNDERMINE HAMAS'S MILITARY CAPABILITIES AND IN EXCHANGE IT WOULD EXPECT HAMAS TO CONTINUE TO EXIST IN GAZA, RAIN IN RESISTANCE FROM GAZA AND ACQUIESCED TO REMAINING UNDER.
DURING THAT TIME, IT IS NOT CLEAR THAT HAMAS HAS BEEN USING ITS ROLE AS A GOVERNING ENTITY AND THE GAZA STRIP TO DEVELOP AN ARSENAL AND TO SHIFT BACK THE DYNAMIC.
RATHER THAN ACCEPTING TO CONTINUE TO LIVE SILENTLY, IF THEY WERE PREPARED TO TURN THE TABLES ON ISRAEL AND REASSERT THE PALESTINIAN PROJECT.
>> ONE THING THAT WE HEAR FROM ISRAELI LEADERS AT THIS JUNCTURE IS THAT THEY HAVE NO CHOICE IN THE WAY THEY ARE PURSUING THEIR SHUTDOWN, PARTICULARLY IN THE WAKE OF THIS GRUESOME ATTACK.
ARE YOU SAYING HAMAS FEELS THE SAME THAT THEY HAVE NO CHOICE?
>> NO.
I DISAGREE WITH THAT TAKE FROM THE ISRAELI POLITICAL ESTABLISHMENT.
>> DO YOU DISAGREE OF THAT TAKE FROM HAMAS?
THE CAPABILITY THEY DEMONSTRATED IN BUILDING OF THIS ARSENAL AND RESISTANCE, SOME OF THAT COULD HAVE BEEN DIRECTED TOWARD IMPROVING THE LIVES OF THE PEOPLE LIVING IN GAZA AND THEY CHOSE NOT TO DO THAT.
>> WHAT WOULD IMPROVING THE LIVES OF PALESTINIANS IN GAZA LOOK LIKE?
IF THEY INVESTED IN HEALTHCARE AND EDUCATION AND INFRASTRUCTURE , AND THE PALESTINIANS IN GAZA ARE ENJOYING A BETTER QUALITY OF LIFE WHILE ISRAEL CONTINUES TO MAINTAIN, THAT MEANS FOOD, MEDICINE, FUEL, ELECTRICITY IS STILL CONTROLLED BY ISRAEL, THE MAJORITY OF PALESTINIANS IN GAZA ARE UNDER A 16 AND THEY HAVE NEVER LEFT THE GAZA STRIP AND THEY HAVE SUFFERED NUMEROUS WARS AND MILITARY ASSAULT.
WHAT WE ARE SAYING IS HAMAS SHOULD HAVE INVESTED IN MAKING THE LIVES OF PALESTINIANS BETTER WHILE REMAINING IN THEIR PRISON CELL.
FOR HAMAS, IF THEY ARE LOOKING TO OVERTURN THAT REALITY, TO BREAK OUT OF THE BLOCKADE THERE IS NO WAY.
THAT IS NOT SOMETHING THAT THE MOVEMENT GOT TO EASILY.
HAMAS OVER THE COURSE OF THE PAST FEW YEARS, LET'S NOT TALK ABOUT 30 YEARS LET'S TALK THE LAST FEW YEARS, HAMAS HAS ENGAGED IN VARIOUS TACTICS.
THEY HAVE OFFERED TO ENGAGE IN POPULAR STRUGGLE.
THAT MEANS PALESTINIANS IN GAZA MOBILIZED THROUGH CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE AND POPULAR MARCHES IN 2018 THAT WAS ONE OF THE BIGGEST CIVIL SOCIETY PEACEFUL PROTESTS LED BY THE PALESTINIANS IN GAZA, ACTUALLY AN PALESTINIAN HISTORY, IT LASTED FOR MONTHS.
ISRAEL RESPONDED WITH SNIPER FIRES.
THEY KILLED OVER 200 PALESTINIANS, CIVILIANS INCLUDING MEDICS AND JOURNALIST AND IT RESULTED IN THE AMPUTATION OF MORE THAN 36,000 LIMBS IN THE GAZA STRIP.
POPULAR RESISTANCE DID NOT WORK.
HAMAS HAS OFFERED.
AT VARIOUS POINTS IN ITS HISTORY THOSE WERE DISMISSED AS TERRORIST.
THE MOVEMENT HAS ENGAGED IN OTHER OPTIONS BUT ISRAEL MADE IT CLEAR THAT THEY ARE INTERESTED IN DEALING NOT ONLY WITH HAMAS BUT WITH PALESTINIANS IS THROUGH FORCE.
THROUGH MILITARY REPRISALS NOT THROUGH POLITICAL MEANS.
>> SUICIDE BOMBER SPIRIT THAT HAS BEEN A CONTINUOUS TACTIC OF HAMAS.
>> HE WAS SIDE BOMBERS WERE CONTENTIOUS FOR HAMAS.
BY THE WAY HAMAS WAS NOT THE ONLY PARTY ENGAGED IN SUICIDE BOMBINGS, SO IS, WHICH IS NOW UNDER.
THOSE ARE CONTENTIOUS PRECISELY BECAUSE THEY WERE TARGETING CIVILIANS.
OBVIOUSLY THEY WERE WAR CRIMES.
THE MOVEMENT, AS DID THE PALESTINIANS MORE BROADLY IN THE HISTORY OF THEIR STRUGGLE ENGAGED WITH ARMED RESISTANCE IN A MANNER, THEY TALK ABOUT THE MORAL IMPLICATIONS AND THEY TALK ABOUT THE STRATEGIC IMPLICATIONS.
IT WAS NEVER A STRAIGHTFORWARD QUESTION.
THE TRUTH OF THE MATTER HAS BEEN THAT IN THE PAST ISRAEL HAS RESPONDED MOSTLY TO FORCE AND ACTIVELY MILITARIZE THE PALESTINIAN MOVEMENT.
WHEN WE WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE SUICIDE BOMBINGS, IT BEGAN AS A POPULAR MOBILIZATION BY THE PALESTINIANS.
ISRAEL MILITARIZE THAT FROM THE EARLIEST DAYS BY SHOOTING ON CIVILIANS.
>> WHAT WOULD YOU LIKE TO SEE HAPPEN?
IF YOU FEEL COMFORTABLE SAYING WHAT SHOULD HAPPEN?
>> THE ONLY WAY FOR THIS CYCLE OF VIOLENCE TO END AND FOR SECURITY TO BE ENJOYED BY ISRAELIS AND PALESTINIANS IS FOR THE DEMANDS OF THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE, WHICH ARE RECOGNIZED IN INTERNATIONAL LAW , ARE SECURED THE DEMANDS ARE CLEAR.
THE DEMANDS TO RETURN TO THEIR HOMES AND FOR PALESTINIANS TO BE ALLOWED SELF-DETERMINATION, TO HAVE A STATE OF THEIR OWN.
UNTIL WE ENGAGED WITH PALESTINIANS POLITICALLY AND NOT MILITARILY THERE WILL BE NO SECURITY FOR ISRAEL HE CHOOSE JEWS.
THAT WAS VERY CLEAR .
>> THANK YOU FOR SPEAKING WITH US.
>> THANK YOU.
>>> FINALLY, HUMAN NATURE.
ESTHER PERRAULT IS PROBABLY THE MOST FAMOUS COUPLES THERAPIST ON THE PLANET.
WITH THE NEW SERIES OF HER HIT PODCAST WHERE SHOULD WE BEGIN AND A NEW COURSE TURNING CONFLICT INTO CONNECTION SHE IS BACK.
WE TALKED ABOUT THE CURRENT STAGE OF RELATIONSHIPS WHEN WE SAT DOWN TOGETHER IN LONDON.
JUST A NOTE THIS INTERVIEW WAS RECORDED BEFORE THE OCTOBER 7th ATTACK.
>> WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.
HERE YOU ARE DOING A WHOLE NEW SHOW AND YOU HAVE A NEW SERIES OF YOUR PODCAST AND NEW VENTURES .
TELL ME WHAT YOU KNOW NOW, AI, TECH, YOU TALKED ABOUT SOCIAL ATROPHY, WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?
>> IF YOU LOOK AT WHAT TECHNOLOGY IS OFFERING US AT THIS MOMENT, I AM INTERESTED IN THE WAY TECHNOLOGY IS SHAPING HUMAN RELATIONSHIPS, IN PARTICULAR I'M LOOKING AT THE INTERSECTION BETWEEN TECHNOLOGY, LONELINESS AND LOVE .
I HAVE A CALENDAR THAT TELLS ME WHAT I NEED TO DO I HAVE WAYS OF TELLING ME HOW TO GET THERE, I HAVE SPOTIFY TELL ME WHAT TO LISTEN TO AND NETFLIX TELLING ME WHAT TO WATCH.
I AM HAVING ASSISTED LIVING WITH A SET OF DEVICES THAT ARE HELPING ME TO POLISH AND SMOOTH OUT ALL THE INCONVENIENCES OF MY LIFE.
I BEGIN TO LOSE THE SKILLS THAT I NEED IN ORDER TO BE ABLE TO INTERACT WITH PEOPLE.
I ASKED A QUESTION RECENTLY THAT HELPS ME TO UNDERSTAND, DID YOU GROW UP PLAYING FREELY ON THE STREETS?
IT IS A REAL GENERATIONAL DIVIDE.
WHAT YOU GET WHEN YOU DO AND YOU DON'T ANYMORE IS YEARS OF PRACTICE OF FROM UNSCRIPTED, UN- CHOREOGRAPHED, UNMONITORED SOCIAL NEGOTIATION YOU PLAY YOU MAKE RULES, YOU FIGHT WITH YOUR FRIENDS YOU MAKE UP, YOU COMPETE, YOU HAVE A REPERTOIRE OF SOCIAL NEGOTIATIONS THAT GIVE YOU THE SKILLS AFTER YEARS OF LETDOWN AND TECHNOLOGY THAT IS BASICALLY DIGITALIZED IN OUR LIVES WE FIND OURSELVES AT A LOSS FOR ALL THE DIFFICULT CONVERSATIONS THAT WE NEED TO HAVE.
WHAT I OFTEN THINK ABOUT IS MODERN LONELINESS MASKS ITSELF AS HYPER CONNECTIVITY.
YOU CAN HAVE 1000 VIRTUAL FRIENDS AND NO ONE TO FEED YOUR CAT.
YOU CAN HAVE 15 PEOPLE THAT YOU CAN TEXT OR DM ON FRIDAY NIGHT BUT HOW LONG IS THE LIST OF PEOPLE THAT CAN GO AND PICK UP A PRESCRIPTION AT THE PHARMACY?
THIS SENSE OF LONELINESS IS ACTUALLY CREEPING UP ON US.
WE DO NOT REALLY TALK TO PEOPLE.
PEOPLE PRETEND THEY HAVE RELATIONSHIPS BUT IT IS ALL TEXTED.
THERE IS NO DIRECT CONNECTION.
THAT DIRECT CONNECTION IS A PART OF LIFE THAT DRIVES ON HAPPENSTANCE AND SPONTANEITY.
PEOPLE ARE NOTORIOUSLY UNPREDICTABLE AND IMPERFECT, MUCH MORE FALLIBLE.
>> WHAT DO YOU TELL YOUR PATIENTS OR CLIENTS IN THE SPACE THAT IS PUBLIC?
OR IN ONE- ON-ONE SESSIONS?
WHAT DO YOU TELL THEM?
>> I SPENT A LOT OF TIME HELPING PEOPLE REACH OUT TO PEOPLE AND HAVE REAL CONVERSATIONS, BE PHYSICAL WITH PEOPLE, GO DANCING.
SEX IS ONE EXPRESSION OF PHYSICAL CONNECTION.
FOR SOME OF THEM, HOW DO YOU REACH OUT, HOW DO YOU INITIATE, HOW DO YOU NEGOTIATE CONSENT, HOW DO YOU NOTICE WHAT IS THE ENERGY AT THIS MOMENT?
HOW DO YOU CULTIVATE THAT ENERGY?
HOW DO YOU EXPRESS YOUR ATTRACTION AND DESIRES FOR ANOTHER PERSON IN A WAY THAT IS AN INVITATION AND NOT IRRITATION?
BASIC SKILLS AROUND BEING SEXUAL AND PHYSICAL AND SENSUAL WITH EACH OTHER.
>> YOU ALSO TALK ABOUT SOMETHING THAT I ABSORBED IN DAILY LIFE, THERE IS A LOT OF THERAPY SPEAK THAT GOES ON IN DAILY LIFE.
THERE IS A LOT OF, WHAT LOOKS LIKE HR STATEMENT THAT GOES ON AMONGST PEOPLE AND FRIENDSHIPS OR EVEN AROUND THE WORKTABLE.
THERE IS A FORMALITY TO THE LANGUAGE THAT YOUNG PEOPLE ARE USING TO EITHER BREAK UP OR HAVE A WORD DISCUSSION, OR EVEN A FRIENDSHIP CRISIS.
>> THERE IS A LOT OF CONFUSION AROUND RELATIONSHIPS.
THEY ARE NO LESS IMPORTANT THAN THEY EVER WERE.
THE EXPECTATIONS AROUND RELATIONSHIPS ARE MUCH HIGHER BECAUSE THERE HAS BEEN A DIMINISHMENT OF OTHER INSTITUTIONS PRIMARILY RELIGION AND SOCIAL STRUCTURES THAT USED TO GIVE US FRAMEWORKS.
WE HAVE DISPLACED ALL OF THOSE NEEDS ONTO RELATIONSHIPS.
AT THE SAME TIME THERE IS CONFUSION AND AGONY.
PEOPLE ARE TRYING TO CREATE A VOCABULARY TO HELP THEM MAKE SENSE OF ALL OF THIS.
YOU HAVE THIS WHOLE RANGE OF LANGUAGE OF RELATIONSHIPS, I AM ICING, HOSTING, GAS LIGHTING, BREADCRUMB IN, IT IS NONSTOP PERIODS >> BOUNDARIES, I DON'T FEEL SAFE -- >> ON THE ONE HAND THERE IS SOMETHING IMPORTANT AND THE STIGMATIZING.
I'M THE FIRST ONE TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT IT IS IMPORTANT BECAUSE THESE WORDS AND EXPERIENCES USED TO BE SHAME INDUCING AN ISOLATED.
ON THE OTHER HAND THERE IS THE RISK OF WEAPON ICING.
>> DO YOU FEEL IN YOUR SESSIONS THAT THE WEAPONIZATION IS BECOMING NORMAL?
>> YES.
PART OF WHAT HAPPENS IS IF YOU DO NOT HAVE NEGOTIATION SKILLS, IF YOU CANNOT ENGAGE IN DIFFICULT CONVERSATION, IF YOU CANNOT UNDERSTAND THAT MANY PROBLEMS ARE COMPLEX PROBLEMS THAT DO NOT GET ANSWERED IN ONES AND ZEROS.
YOU CANNOT SIMPLIFY IT THE WAY THAT OUR DEVICES WANT TO MAKE US BELIEVE.
WHAT THE COMPLEX PROBLEM DEMANDS YOU TO DO IS TO HOLD POLARITY AND TO HOLD CONTRADICTIONS, THAT THERE IS NOT A SOLUTION BUT THERE IS A PARADOX THAT YOU NEED TO MANAGE .
>> DO YOU FEEL THAT YOU MIGHT HAVE ENCOURAGED ALL OF THIS?
>> NO, I DON'T.
I THINK I AM MUCH MORE OF A TRANSLATOR AND A PERSON WHO PUTS WORDS TO THE CONFUSION OF OUR EXPERIENCES AND HELPS PEOPLE MAKE SENSE OF ITS AND PARTICULARLY WHENEVER THEY NEED TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY TO BE MORE ACCOUNTABLE, BUT WHEN IT IS NOT THEIR FAULT TO ALSO UNDERSTAND THAT THEY DO NOT HAVE TO PERSONALIZE WHAT IS HAPPENING.
>> BECAUSE, A LOT OF PEOPLE OPENLY SAY MY THERAPIST AND YOU NEVER HEARD THAT 10 YEARS AGO.
IS IT BECOMING?
>> KNOW IT IS A SYMBOL OF SELF- AWARENESS AND WHAT HAS CHANGED IS THE IMPORTANCE OF THE INFERIORITY OF OUR LIVES.
OUR INNER LIVES MATTER.
FINDING A PERSON WHO IS CURIOUS ABOUT THEIR INNER LIFE IS SEEN AS A SIGN OF MATURITY AND SELF- DEVELOPMENT AND GROWTH.
THAT BECOMES AN ATTRACTIVE THING, IT IS A PLUS.
THAT IS AN AMAZING TRANSFORMATION.
THERAPY IT WAS FOR THE CRAZIES, IT WAS STIGMATIZED AND SHAMEFUL AND IT WAS SECRETIVE TO TURN IT INTO SOMETHING OPEN IS GOOD.
WE DO LIVE IN A SOCIETY WHERE THIS IS THE PRIMARY VOCABULARY OF THE MOMENT, THE PSYCHOLOGICAL THERAPY SPEAK.
I THINK SOMETIMES IT GOES TOO FAR.
IT PUTS PEOPLE IN BOXES AND IT GETS WEAPONIZED.
AT OTHER TIMES IT HAS OPENED SOMETHING UP.
THE AMOUNT OF PEOPLE THAT LIVE WITH THEIR MENTAL HEALTH CHALLENGES, IT IS NOT EITHER OR.
NORMALIZING MENTAL HEALTH IS IMPORTANT.
>> YOUR LATEST SERIES IS SPECIFICALLY ABOUT CONFLICTS.
EXPLAIN.
>> I CREATED A COURSE ON CONFLICT THAT IS AN HOUR LONG COURSE WITH A BUNCH OF VIDEOS AND A WORK BOOK.
I THOUGHT SOMETHING IS HAPPENING IN OUR SOCIETY WHERE WE ARE FINDING OURSELVES MORE AND MORE SOCIALLY ATROPHIED WITH THE LOSS OF SOCIAL SKILLS TO HELP US NEGOTIATE THE DYNAMIC CHALLENGES AND ONE IN PARTICULAR IS CONFLICT.
WE HAVE BECOME CONFLICT AVOIDANCE RATE IF I DON'T WANT TO AGREE WITH YOU I DON'T WANT NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU.
IF I DON'T LIKE WHAT MY FAMILY TELLS ME I CUT OFF MY FAMILY MEMBERS AND IF I DO NOT AGREE WITH THE VALUES OF THE POLITICAL STANCES, I DO NOT KNOW HOW TO BE WITH PEOPLE WHO HAVE A DIFFERENT WORLDVIEW THAN MINE.
THAT IS NOT A NECESSITY.
THERE IS A WAY TO DISAGREE WITH PEOPLE WITHOUT DISCONNECTING.
THERE IS A WAY TO FEEL CLOSE TO PEOPLE WHO FEEL DIFFERENTLY ABOUT THE NATURE OF THE WORLD, POLITICS, YOU NAME IT HOW DO WE DO IT?
>> HOW DO YOU DO THAT?
WE ARE TALKING AT A TIME IN THE UNITED STATES, THE WORD POLARIZATION AND CONFLICT IT IS NOT JUST WEAPONIZED IT IS AND ECONOMIC FACT THEY WANT CONFLICT BECAUSE IT BRINGS MORE EYEBALLS YOU CAN SEE GOVERNMENT IS PRACTICALLY PARALYZED.
>> I WILL NOT SAY THIS WILL RESULT IN A POLITICAL STATEMENT , BUT THE IDEA OF ITS, WE HAVE THE TOLERANCE TO LISTEN 10 SECONDS WHEN SOMEBODY SAYS SOMETHING THAT WE DO NOT AGREE WITH, ESPECIALLY IF IT IS SOMETHING ABOUT US.
AT THAT MOMENT WE STOP LISTENING.
HOW DO WE ACTUALLY BEGIN A CONVERSATION THAT DOES NOT SHUT THE OTHER PERSON DOWN?
ONE THING WE DO IS KITCHEN SINK.
I DON'T DISAGREE WITH YOU ON ONE THING I BRING EVERYTHING ELSE THAT I HAVE AN ARGUMENT WITH YOU ABOUT.
IF YOU PUT ALL THE DIRTY DISHES IN THE SINK YOU CANNOT WASH A DISH.
I MAP THE CREATIVE STRATEGIES THAT WE HAVE TO HAVE A CONVERSATION.
CHARACTER ASSASSINATION, YOU THIS, YOU THAT, ALWAYS, NEVER, WE ARE VERY IMAGINATIVE AND HOW TO MAKE SURE THAT WE CAN HAVE A CONVERSATION THAT INCLUDES INTENTION PERIODS >> THAT IS FOOD FOR THOUGHT AND EVERYONE SHOULD GET ONTO YOUR NEW SERIES.
THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
>>> TURNING CONFLICT INTERCONNECTION.
THANK YOU FOR WATCHING.
GOODBYE FROM LONDON.