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> HELLO, EVERYONE.
WELCOME TO 'AMANPOUR & CO.'
I FEEL ATTRACTED AND INVIGORATED BY THE FACT I TELL STORIES ABOUT MY PEOPLE, ABOUT BLACK PEOPLE.
A NEW SERIES ABOUT COLIN KAEPERNICK REVEALING THE YOUNG MAN WHO BECAME THE ACTIVIST.
WHAT NEEDS TO CHANGE IN HOLLYWOOD AFTER THAT FATAL SHOOTING ON A MOVIE SET.
> MICHAEL LEWIS, GRAPPLES WITH HIS OWN UNIMAGINABLE LOSS.
AT A TIME WHEN THE WHOLE WORLD IS NUMB WITH GRIEF.
> A SHOT TO SAVE THE WORLD.
A JOURNALIST AND AUTHOR TELLS US WHY SO MANY IMMIGRANTS ARE THE UNSUNG HEROES OF THIS PANDEMIC.
> 'AMANPOUR & CO.' IS MADE POSSIBLE BY --
> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.
IS THE NFL DROPPING THE BALL?
AMERICA'S MOST POPULAR SPORTS LEAGUE IS FACING FRESH SCRUTINY THIS WEEK OVER ITS CULTURE.
THAT'S AFTER RACIST AND SEXIST EMAILS LED TO THE RESIGNATION OF JON GRUDEN OF THE LAS VEGAS RAIDERS.
THE COMMISSIONER HAS PROMISED TO MAKE CHANGES.
BUT CRITICS SAY THE LEAGUE, A BILLION DOLLAR BUSINESS WITH LEGIONS OF FANS, SIMPLY HASN'T DONE ENOUGH.
THEY POINT TO THE TREATMENT OF COLIN KAEPERNICK, THE FORMER PLAYER WHO TOOK A KNEE BACK IN 2016 AND LAUNCHED A MOVEMENT FOR SOCIAL JUSTICE.
HIS SUPPORTERS SAY THAT COST HIM HIS SPORTS CAREER.
NOW A NEW NETFLIX SERIES LOOKS AT HOW KAEPERNICK'S HIGH SCHOOL YEARS REVEAL UNSETTLING TRUTHS ABOUT OUR SOCIETY.
HERE IS A CLIP FROM THE TRAILER.
TURNED OUT MY COMPETITION WASN'T ONLY ON THE FIELD.
YOU HAVE NATURAL TALENT.
BUT JOHNSON, HE IS THE PROTOTYPE WE ARE LOOKING FOR.
GROWING UP WITH WHITE PARENTS, I ASSUMED THEIR PRIVILEGE WAS MINE.
FINE, THANKS.
YEAH.
I'M GOOD, TOO.
THANKS.
I WAS IN FOR A RUDE AWAKENING.
WHAT'S UP WITH KAEPERNICK?
THE HAIR.
SOMETHING OFF THE BACK OF HIS HEAD.
NOT ACCEPTABLE.
KAEPERNICK'S COLLABORATOR IS AVA, SHE'S THE PEABODY WINNING DIRECTOR WHO RECEIVED AND OSCAR NOMINATION.
SHE TELLS ME WHAT IT'S LIKE TO BE TRUSTED WITH ALL THESE STORIES, ESPECIALLY AT THIS TIME OF RECKONING, COLLIDING WITH THE CULTURE WARS.
WELCOME BACK TO OUR PROGRAM.
HAPPY TO BE HERE.
GREAT TO SEE YOU IN REAL LIFE.
DURING COVID, IT HAS BEEN REMOTE.
WE HAVE BEEN ON SCREEN.
A PLEASURE.
LIKEWISE.
I WANT TO QUOTE TO YOU WHAT ONE OF THE REVIEWERS HAVE SAID.
IT'S VERY PROFOUND.
TELL ME IF YOU AGREE.
AVA IS A FILM DIRECTOR, A TELEVISION PRODUCER, A STORYTELLER WHOM PEOPLE TURN TO TO TELL THEIR TRUTH, BECAUSE SHE'S SO TRUSTED.
IS THAT YOU?
I LOVE TO HEAR THAT.
I TAKE IT VERY SERIOUSLY.
I DON'T TAKE THAT FOR GRANTED THAT PEOPLE FEEL THAT WAY.
I HAVE HEARD IT BEFORE.
IT TOUCHES ME DEEPLY.
MY FIRST INKLING WAS WHEN I WAS WORKING ON 'SELMA' AND WITH THE KING FAMILY.
WHEN THEY SEE US DEALING WITH THE FAMILIES OF THE FIVE BOYS.
EVEN THERE WAS SOME SPECIFICS WITH FAMILIES OF -- WHO HAVE BEEN VICTIMS OF POLICE BRUTALITY.
WITH COLIN KAEPERNICK, I FEEL LIKE I'M GETTING MORE USED TO IT.
I KNOW HOW TO DO IT.
IT'S ABOUT RESPECT.
IMAGINE IF YOU WERE HANDING YOUR LIFE OVER TO SOMEONE AND ALL THE TRUST IT TAKES TO SAY, PORTRAY ME WELL.
EXPRESS WHAT I WANT TO SAY.
TAKE THAT SERIOUSLY.
WHAT DID COLIN KAEPERNICK SAY TO YOU?
IT'S ABOUT TO LAUNCH ON NETFLIX.
HE SAID HE WAS INTERESTED ON DOING SOMETHING ON HIS EARLY LIFE.
WHEN I HEARD IT, I THOUGHT, LET'S DO SOMETHING NOW.
LET'S DO IT NOW.
HE HAD A PARTICULAR POINT OF VIEW.
I THINK AT THE END OF THE PROJECT NOW I THINK IT WAS WISE.
IT ALLOWS PEOPLE TO ENTER INTO HIS STORY A LITTLE MORE FREE OF POLITICS AROUND IT.
JUST SEE A KID WHO WAS STRUGGLING TO CONTROL AND DETERMINE WHAT HIS VOICE WOULD BE.
IT HAS A NIGHT AFFECT.
IT WAS A DECISION THAT WAS SOLELY BASED ON WHAT HE WANTED TO DO.
I'M GLAD THAT I LEANED INTO IT.
IT REALLY DOES TAKE AWAY FROM THE POLITICS AND THE CULTURE WAR THAT'S ERUPTED OVERT TAKING THE KNEE.
THAT EXTENDED TO THE UK, SOCCER PLAYERS AND IN SO MANY PLACES.
ARE YOU SURPRISED THAT SMALL ACT, SIGNIFICANT SMALL ACT, HAS BECOME SUCH A POISON CHALICE?
I DON'T KNOW IF I'M SURPRISED BY IT.
I THINK IF YOU LOOK AT TOMMY SMITH, IF YOU LOOK AT MUHAMMAD ALI, ATHLETES WHO TRIED TO TAKE CONTROL OF THEIR OWN NARRATIVE, THERE'S SOMETHING ABOUT THE ATHLETE THAT'S IN SUCH A CONTROLLED SYSTEM, BASEBALL, FOOTBALL, AMERICAN FOOTBALL, ALL OF THESE -- THESE ARE INSTITUTIONS THAT HAVE SYSTEMS.
THE ATHLETE IN THE MIDDLE OF IT IS EXPECTED TO BEHAVE AND PERFORM IN A CERTAIN WAY.
A CONTROLLED WAY, THAT'S VERY DEFINED.
IF ANYONE STEPS OUTSIDE OF THAT, COMMITTING A RADICAL ACT.
SO I'M NOT SURPRISED THAT IT CAUSED THE IRE IS HAS.
WHAT SURPRISES ME IS THE REVERBERATIONS SIX YEARS LATER.
IN THE FIRST EPISODE, IT'S VERY DRAMATIC AND UNCOMFORTABLE, I SUPPOSE BY DESIGN, WHERE YOU SORT OF GO FROM IMAGE TO IMAGE, SLAVE AUCTION TO NFL RECRUITMENT.
WHAT ARE YOU SAYING?
THIS IS SOMETHING THAT WAS IMPORTANT TO COLIN.
HE FELT THAT WHEN HE WENT THROUGH THE NFL COMBINE PROCESS -- I WASN'T AWARE OF -- THERE'S THIS PROCESS THAT AS YOU ARE ENTERING INTO PROFESSIONAL AMERICAN FOOTBALL, YOU ARE MEASURED, PREDOMINANTLY BLACK MEN, MUSCLES ARE MEASURES, THEIR STRENGTH IS CALCULATED, THEY ARE ON TABLE WITH THEIR SHIRTS OFF IN THEIR BRIEFS WITH DOCTORS POKING AND PRODDING.
THIS IS A VERY INVASIVE PROCESS FOR THE BLACK BODY TO GO THROUGH TO DETERMINE WHAT THE POTENTIAL FOR PROFIT IS.
HE SAW THAT AS ANALOGOUS TO THE SLAVE AUCTIONS WITH BLACK MEN, WOMEN AND CHILDREN WERE PUT ON SLAVE BLOCKS TO BE POKED AND PRODDED TO ASSESS IF THEY COULD WORK IN THE FIELDS PROPERLY.
HE SAW AN ANALOGY BETWEEN THAT WHICH I THOUGHT WAS STRIKING AND AGREED IT WAS A CONVERSATION TO BE HAD.
SO WE OPENED THE SERIES ON THESE IMAGES THAT REALLY ASK US TO CONSIDER HOW WE VALUE BLACK LIVES.
IS IT ONLY VALUABLE WHEN IT'S FAMOUS, WHEN IT'S RESPECTABLE, WHEN IT'S IN SERVICE TO THE DOMINANT CULTURE?
OR IS IT INHERENTLY OF VALUE?
HE WAS A QUARTERBACK FOR THE SAN FRANCISCO 49ers.
THEN HIS CAREER TOOK A DIVE BECAUSE OF TAKING THE KNEE.
LET'S GO BACK TO HOW YOU START.
IT'S ABOUT HIS CHILDHOOD AND THE CORNROWS.
TELL ME WHY THAT WAS SO IMPORTANT AND SO FORMATIVE FOR A YOUNG BLACK KID, BUT MIXED RACE.
HIS MOTHER WAS WHITE.
HIS FATHER WAS BLACK.
HE WAS ADOPTED BY A WHITE FAMILY.
THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THE CORNROWS.
EACH EPISODE TACKLES SOMETHING THAT ON THE SURFACE IS SEEMINGLY UNIMPORTANT.
RIGHT?
OR SOMETHING SMALL.
EVERY EPISODE -- HIM GETTING HIS LICENSE.
THIS ISSUE WITH THE FIRST TIME HE TOOK A GIRL TO PROM, ASKED A GIRL TO PROM.
CULTURAL CONTEXT AND TALKING ABOUT IDENTITY AND PRIVILEGE AND RESPECTABILITY AND RACE AND CLASS.
IN THE FIRST EPISODE, THE ONE I DIRECTED, WE TALK ABOUT CORNROWS.
A TEENAGER WHO WANTS TO HAVE A NEW HAIRSTYLE.
PARENTS DON'T LIKE THE HAIRSTYLE.
WHAT KID HAS THIS NOT HAPPENED TO?
WITHIN THIS EPISODE, WE TALK MORE ABOUT THE SIGNIFICANCE OF BLACK HAIR.
BLACK HAIR OVER THE GENERATIONS HAS BEEN NOT REALLY BLACK HAIR BUT A PROXY FOR SOCIAL CONTROL.
MOST PEOPLE DON'T KNOW THAT BLACK MEN WERE REALLY REQUIRED NOT TO HAVE FACIAL HAIR IN THE EARLY PART OF THE LAST CENTURY.
BLACK WOMEN, YOU SEE A MAJORITY HAVE STRAIGHTENED OR PROCESSED HAIR.
IT'S MORE RESPECTABLE.
YOU WILL GET THE JOB.
IT'S MORE AMENABLE.
MORE LIKE WHITE MEN.
EVEN THE HAIR I WEAR IS A POLITICAL ACT.
YES, THIS IS NATURALLY COMING OUT OF MY HEAD THIS WAY.
RIGHT?
I DON'T STRAIGHTEN MY HAIR.
I USED TO.
DON'T STRAIGHTEN MY HAIR.
THE IDEA THAT HAIR HAS TO BE A QUESTION FOR BLACK PEOPLE, AS TO HOW IT WILL BE PROCESSED OR NOT PROCESSED IS SOMETHING THAT NON-BLACK PEOPLE DON'T EVEN HAVE TO THINK ABOUT OR DEAL WITH.
THE IDEA OF TAKING THE CORNROWS, A SEEMINGLY SMALL THING, REALLY PUTTING THAT INTO THE LARGER CULTURAL CONTEXT IS WHAT WE DO THROUGHOUT THE SERIES.
PARTICULARLY -- HE HAS A FIRST TRY WITH THE CORNROWS.
IT'S SO PAINFUL.
HE GETS A HEADACHE.
IT'S NOT DONE PROPERLY.
SOMEHOW HE GETS HIS MOM, HIS WHITE MOTHER, TO TAKE HIM TO THE FIRST BLACK BARBER SHOP OR HAIRSTYLIST.
IT'S LIKE WALKING INTO NIRVANA.
OPENING THE DOOR AND GOING INTO THE MOST FANTASTIC REALITY FOR HIM.
HE WAS IN PROXIMITY TO BLACKNESS FOR THE FIRST TIME.
GOING INTO A SPACE THAT'S IN INHERENTLY BLACK.
BLACK PEOPLE, BLACK LIFESTYLE, ANECDOTES, FOOD, MUSIC, HAIRSTYLE.
HAVING BEEN IN A WHITE FAMILY IN A WHITE TOWN, HE HAD NO PROXIMITY TO SOMETHING HE WAS ATTRACTED TO AND FELT A PART OF.
IN THE EARLY DAYS WHEN HE WAS GOING INTO THE BARBER SHOP, WHICH WE KNOW THE BLACK BARBER SHOP AND BEAUTY SALON, A THERAPEUTIC KIND OF SACRED PLACE FOR SOME PEOPLE.
HE GOES INTO THAT SPACE AND FEELS AN AFFECTION AND AFFINITY, A CONNECTION TO SOMETHING THAT HE HAD BEEN DISCONNECTED FROM.
HE HAS SAID IN INTERVIEWS THAT THIS IS NOT JUST FOR BLACK AND BROWN PEOPLE TO LOOK AT AND HOPEFULLY GET INSPIRATION AND LEARN ABOUT THEIR CULTURE, THEIR HERITAGE, WHAT'S THEIR RIGHT, THEIR SPECIAL PLACE, BUT ALSO FOR WHITE PEOPLE TO OBSERVE THE MICRO AGGRESSION, ALL THE DAILY ABUSES THAT SO MANY BLACK PEOPLE FACE.
GROWING UP WITH WHITE PARENTS, I MOVED THROUGH LIFE WITH THE AUDACITY OF WHITENESS.
WHAT ABOUT HIS FAMILY WHO ARE WRITE?
THE MOTHER AND FATHER SAY, COLIN, IT'S TIME TO STOP WEARING THE HAIR.
YOU WON'T GET HERE, THERE, ANYWHERE.
IT MAKES YOU LOOK LIKE A THUG.
THUG WAS WHAT THE NBA PLAYER WHO WAS HIS SORT OF -- HE LOOKED
ALLEN IVERSON.
HE HAD BEEN CALLED THAT BY OTHERS.
DID THE MOTHER CALL HIM A THUG?
HAVE THEY SEEN THE SERIES?
I DON'T KNOW IF THEY HAVE SEEN THE SERIES.
THAT'S COLIN'S RESPONSIBILITY.
I DON'T KNOW WHAT HE HAS DONE.
YES, HE SAID THAT THAT DID HAPPEN.
INTERESTING THING ABOUT WORKING WITH THE CHARACTERS OF THE PARENTS FOR ME IS WHENEVER I'M WORKING AS A DIRECTOR OR WRITER, PRODUCER ON A PIECE, I HAVE TO FEEL A CONNECTION TO EVERY CHARACTER.
I'M WRITING THAT CHARACTER.
I'M HELPING PORTRAY THAT CHARACTER THROUGH DIRECTION.
FOR ME, I HAD TO THINK ABOUT HIS WHITE PARENTS.
AS I TALKED WITH HIM AND KIND OF GOT TO KNOW THEM THROUGH HIS EYES, I FELT LIKE THESE WERE WELL MEANING PEOPLE WHO LOVED HIM.
YOU WATCH THE SEAR RSERIES, THE LOVE, THERE'S A CONNECTION TO THEIR BOY.
THIS IS THEIR SON.
THAT THEY WERE ILL EQUIPPED TO BE RAISING A BLACK MAN.
THEY DID NOT KNOW HOW TO DO THAT.
THEY WANTED HIM TO BE LIKE THEM.
THEY DIDN'T WANT HIM NOT TO BE HIMSELF.
THEY WANTED TO KEEP HIM SAFE.
WE KNOW HOW TO DO THAT OVER HERE WHEN YOU ARE WITH US DOING THIS.
WE DON'T KNOW HOW TO PROTECT YOU OVER THERE.
WE HAVE TO GET OUT OF THE PLACE WHERE CRIMINALIZING FOLKS FOR WHAT THEY DON'T KNOW.
AT THAT TIME, THEY JUST DID NOT KNOW.
THEY WERE WELL MEANING.
OVER THE YEARS, THEY STARTED TO WARM TO WHAT HE WANTED TO DO, TO WHAT HE WAS ATTRACTED TO.
KIND OF COME TO A PLACE OF UNDERSTANDING.
WHAT DO YOU WANT TO BE THE LASTINGING LEGACY OR THE IMMEDI THAT VIEWERS TAKE AWAY?
I HOPE PEOPLE DON'T WALK AWAY AND SAY THIS IS A PIECE ABOUT COLIN.
I HOPE THEY THINK OF IT IN THEIR OWN JOURNEY.
THIS IS ABOUT THE LITTLE THINGS THAT HAPPEN TO YOU THAT YOU JUST HOLD DEAR AND YOU DON'T REALLY EVEN THINK ABOUT HOW IT AFFECTS WHO YOU HAVE BECOME.
OUR LOWS TAKE ALL THESE LITTLE TURNS.
SOMETHING SOMEONE SAID TO YOU.
SOMEONE TOLD ME, YOU HAVE DARK ELBOWS.
I NEVER SHOW MY ELBOWS.
I ALWAYS HAVE THIS ON.
SERIOUSLY?
SERIOUSLY.
WITH ALL THAT YOU KNOW?
I WAS 9.
EVEN NOW?
I KNOW.
I KNOW.
BUT THEY TOLD ME THAT.
WHEN I'M GETTING DRESSED, I THINK ABOUT IT.
THIS IS WHAT LIFE IS.
IT'S THE LITTLE THINGS THAT CHANGE US, THAT GO DEEP.
THAT'S WHAT I WANT TO SHOW.
THAT CHANGED HIM.
THE EPISODE YOU SEE WHERE IT'S HIS FIRST INTERACTION WITH A BLACK GIRL CHANGED HIM, AS A GIRLFRIEND.
LITTLE THINGS THAT SHAPE US.
ASK PEOPLE TO INTERROGATE, WHERE ARE THE LITTLE THINGS I HAVE BEEN TOLD ABOUT MYSELF THAT I ACCEPTED AND WHAT DO I NEED TO RETELL?
I WANT TO --
NEXT TIME YOU SEE ME, I WILL BE IN A SUNDRESS.
YES.
YOU CANNOT ALLOW THAT TO SHAPE YOUR LIFE.
BUT TO SHAPE THE WAY YOU DRESS.
COLIN HAS BEEN LAMBASTED AS WELL AS ADMIRED FOR WHAT HE HAS DONE.
SOME HAVE SAID, IF HE LOVED FOOTBALL, HE WOULD KEEP PLAYING INSTEAD OF KNEELING.
THIS IS WHAT HE SAID.
I'M STILL UP AT 5:00 A.M.
TRAINING FIVE, SIX DAYS A WEEK, MAKING SURE I'M PREPARED TO TAKE A TEAM TO A SUPER BOWL AGAIN.
THAT'S NOT SOMETHING I WILL LET GO OF REGARDLESS OF THE ACTIONS OF 32 TEAMS AND THEIR PARTNERS TO DENY ME EMPLOYMENT.
WILL HE EVER MAKE PEACE WITH WHAT HAPPENED?
DO YOU THINK HE WILL GO BACK TO THE NFL?
I KNOW YOU DON'T KNOW.
WHAT DO YOU THINK?
IT'S THE INSTITUTION THAT BLACKBALLED HIM.
HE STAYS READY TO PLACE.
AS A FRIEND, IT'S NOT MY WISH FOR HIM.
I DON'T WISH FOR ANYONE TO GO INTO AN UNHEALTHY, RACIST ENVIRONMENT.
THAT'S WHAT THE NATIONAL FOOTBALL LEAGUE IN THE UNITED STATES IS, STRAIGHT UP.
HE HAS A DESIRE AND A GREAT LOVE OF FOOTBALL AND STAYS READY TO GO BACK.
IT'S UP TO THEM.
THE GREAT DIRECTOR JANE KAMPION WHERE SHE DOESN'T PRODUCE A FILM AND NOW THERE'S A NEW ONE 'THE POWER OF THE DOG' WHICH I'M LOOKING FORWARD TO.
SHE HAS SAID THAT SHE FEELS THINGS HAVE CHANGED FOR WOMEN DIRECTORS SINCE THE ME TOO MOVEMENT.
NONETHELESS, EVERYTHING SHE DOES IS FOCUSED ON WOMANHOOD, ON WHAT IT MEANS TO BE A WOMAN.
EVERY PIECE OF WORK SHE DOES.
THAT'S HER MISSION, SHE SAYS.
BECAUSE HALF THE WORLD'S POPULATION ARE COMPLETELY UNDERREPRESENTED.
YOU HAVE MADE YOUR NAME FOCUSING ON AFRICAN-AMERICANS, THE LEGACY OF SLAVERY AND EVERYTHING IT MEANS TO BE BLACK.
IS THAT YOUR MISSION?
DO YOU FEEL ABSOLUTELY CONSCIOUS THAT IS WHAT YOU WILL DO FOR THE REST OF YOUR WORKING LIFE?
I FEEL ATTRACTED TO THAT AND ACTIVATED BY IT AND INVIGORATED BY THE FACT I GET TO TELL STORIES ABOUT MY PEOPLE, BLACK PEOPLE.
IT DOESN'T FEEL LIKE A WEIGHT.
IT DOESN'T FEEL LIKE A RESPONSIBILITY.
IT DOESN'T FEEL LIKE ANYTHING I NEED TO COMMIT TO.
AS AN ARTIST, I'M ATTRACTED TO DOING THINGS I'M INTERESTED IN.
I'M INTERESTED IN US.
BECAUSE THERE'S NOT ENOUGH OUT THERE.
THERE'S SO MANY OTHER STORIES TO TELL.
100 YEARS OF CINEMA AND LOOK AT THE FRACTION OF THAT THAT'S BEEN DEDICATED TO BLACK LIVES AND BLACK PEOPLE.
THERE'S SO MUCH MORE TO DO.
I GET TO DO IT.
GIVE IT TO ME.
HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT CRITICAL RACE THEORY AND THE BAC BACKLASH RIGHT NOW?
I THINK IT'S PEDESTRIAN, IT'S UNINFORMED.
PEOPLE ARE UNEDUCATED ABOUT WHAT CRITICAL RACE THEORY IS.
THE WORDS HAVE BEEN WEAPONIZED.
THE THEORY IS NOT FULLY UNDERSTOOD.
I THINK THE GOVERNOR OF IVY SENT OUT A TWEET SAYING, CRITICAL RACE THEORY HAS BEEN BANNED.
WE ARE TEACHING OUR CHURILDREN READ AND WRITE.
ARE THEY THE SAME THING?
NO.
IT'S TOUT USUALLY AT THE COLLEGE LEVEL.
IT'S ABOUT SYSTEMS.
IT'S ABOUT LOOKING AT STRUCTURES AND SYSTEMS THAT HAVE BEEN PUT IN PLACE TO CREATE HIERARCHY, TO CREATE AN ENFORCED CAST.
THE IDEA WE ARE SO AFRAID OF OUR OWN HISTORY THAT WE CAN'T EVEN TEACH WHAT'S HAPPENED IN THE PAST TO OUR CHILDREN IS INSANITY.
IT'S A ROAD TO DESTRUCTION AND DESPAIR.
ANOTHER WATER COOLER ITEM HAS BEEN THE REMOVAL OR THE MOVING OF THE STATUE OF THOMAS JEFFERSON AT THE NEW YORK CITY COUNCIL.
THIS WAS PUT UP IN 1834 BY A JEWISH GENTLEMAN LEVY WHO DID IT IN RESPONSE AND IN GRATITUDE TO THOMAS JEFFERSON'S PROCLAMATION FOR RELIGIOUS FREEDOM.
THOMAS JEFFERSON HAD SLAVES.
MY QUESTION TO YOU IS, WHEN YOU GET TO THAT LEVEL, WHAT SHOULD WE BE THINKING ABOUT THAT?
YOU ARE OWNING 600 HUMAN BEINGS.
ARE YOU WORTHY OF HAVING STATUES IN PUBLIC SPACES BECAUSE OF SOMETHING GOOD THAT YOU DID OVER HERE?
IT'S A WORTHY CONVERSATION.
IT'S ABOUT TAKING A CLOSER LOOK AT OUR AMERICAN HEROES AND REALLY NOT ACCEPTING THE ESTABLISHED NARRATIVE.
I DON'T KNOW.
CAN I ASK YOU ANOTHER QUESTION?
I ASK YOU AS A DIRECTOR.
THE TRAGIC SHOOTING THAT HAPPENED ON THE SET OF 'RUST' WITH ALEC BALDWIN.
DO YOU HAVE THOSE FEARS WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT BEING ON SET AND IF THERE ARE GUNS OR WHATEVER OR OTHER DANGEROUS ITEMS?
IT WAS A GUT PUNCH TO HEAR ABOUT THAT INCIDENT.
I THINK FOR ANYONE THAT WORKS ON SETS.
I SPEND HALF OF MY YEARS ON A SET.
THAT SPACE IS A SACRED SPACE, INTIMATE SPACE, A SPACE OF TRUST WITH EVERYONE AROUND YOU.
THIS IS A SET WHERE PROTOCOLS WENT WRONG.
THINGS THAT ARE ESTABLISHED IN OUR INDUSTRY DID NOT HAPPEN.
FOR ME, WE STOPPED USING GUNS, REAL GUNS ON OUR SETS FIVE YEARS AGO.
ANY SET I CONTROL, ANYTHING I DIRECT.
IT COMES OUT OF OUR PRODUCTION COMPANY.
WE USE RUBBER GUNS AND THINGS THAT ARE TOYS, HOLLOW ON THE INSIDE.
THERE'S NO REASON TO STILL BE HAVING LIVE AMMO ON A SET.
THE BOTTOM LINE IS THEY SHOULDN'T BE ON SETS.
I THINK YOU WILL FIND MORE CREWS SAY WE DON'T WANT IT.
MORE DIRECTORS WILL SAY, NO.
I DOUBT THEY WILL BE RESISTANT.
UNFORTUNATELY, THE TRAGEDY PUT US IN A PLACE WHERE IT MAY HELP OUR INDUSTRY.
FINALLY, WHAT'S NEXT FOR YOU?
SO MANY THINGS.
I'M WORKING WITH D.C. COMICS ON A COUPLE OF THINGS.
I'M WORKING IN THE UNSCRIPTED PLACE, IN THE ANIMATION SPACE.
I LOVE THE IDEA I CAN HAVE THE SAME IDEAS, THAT I CAN APPLY THEM TO DIFFERENT FORMATS.
THAT'S SOMETHING THAT BLACK WOMEN DIRECTORS BEFORE ME AND PRODUCERS NEVER HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO DO.
I'M DOING IT ALL.
I'M ENJOYING IT.
ON THAT NOTE --
YES.
THANK YOU.
THANK YOU.
FANTASTIC TO SIT WITH YOU.
IT WILL START STREAMING ON NETFLIX ON FRIDAY.
> NEXT, WE TURN TO THE PANDEMIC AND ITS UNRELENTING CRUELTY.
THE WORLD WILL SOON MARK 5 MILLION DEATHS FROM THIS PANDEMIC, KNITTING SO MANY FAMILIES OF DIFFERENT BACKGROUNDS AND BELIEFS INTO ONE COMMON HEARTBREAK.
BUT THERE ARE STORIES OF HOPE, OF THOSE WHO SAW THE WORST AROUND THEM AND ACTED FOR THE GOOD OF US ALL.
THEIR STORIES ARE TOLD BY MICHAEL LEWIS IN HIS LATEST BOOK 'THE PRESIDENT-EMONITION.'
WE SPOKE ABOUT IT IN MAY.
LESS THAN THREE WEEKS LATER, TRAGEDY STRUCK.
THEIR 19-YEAR-OLD DAUGHTER WAS KILLED IN A CAR CRASH ALONG WITH HER BOYFRIEND.
LEWIS IS ONLY LATELY READY TO TALK ABOUT IT PUBLICALLY.
HE IS JOINING ME FROM NEW YORK.
MICHAEL LEWIS, WELCOME BACK TO THIS PROGRAM.
I'M JUST -- WITH ALL OUR HEART WE SEND OUR CONDOLENCES AND WE ARE JUST SO SORRY FOR WHAT'S HAPPENED TO YOUR FAMILY.
THE LOSS OF YOUR DAUGHTER.
THESE MONTHS LATER, HOW ARE YOU COPING?
HOW ARE YOU DEALING WITH THIS GRIEF AMID SO MUCH GRIEF THAT YOU WRITE ABOUT, THAT YOU LIVE IN IN OUR GLOBAL SITUATION RIGHT NOW?
YOU KNOW, IT WASN'T MY FIRST THOUGHT OR MY SECOND THOUGHT OR MY TENTH THOUGHT.
BUT AFTER DIXIE DIED AND I REALIZED, IT'S LIKE THE EFFECTS OF LOSS, I DID CONNECT IT UP, WHAT WAS GOING ON IN THE CONNECT.
WE ARE SURROUNDED BY PEOPLE WHO ARE GOING THROUGH SIMILAR THINGS.
I DON'T THINK WE'RE VERY GOOD AT LOSS.
I THINK WE DON'T DO GRIEF WELL.
IT HAS ALL THESE KNOCK-ON AFFECTS.
I WAS STRUCK IN THE FIRST PLACE BY JUST HOW EXHAUSTING IT IS, THAT YOU LOSE THIS CHILD WHO YOU LOVE MORE THAN ANYTHING IN THE WORLD.
YOUR FIRST REACTION IS TO BE TIRED ALL THE TIME.
WHERE IS THAT COMING FROM?
I THINK WHERE IT'S COMING FROM IS YOU HAVE THIS -- WE ALL MOVE THROUGH THE WORLD WITH THIS REALITY IN OUR HEAD.
WE SORT OF -- WE ASSUME A FUTURE.
WHEN YOU HAVE TO REWRITE THAT FUTURE BECAUSE OF SOME TRAUMA, I THINK THAT THAT -- IT OCCUPIES A LOT OF YOUR BRAIN SPACE.
THE OTHER THING THAT STRUCK ME IS THAT WHEN YOU HAVE THIS KIND OF LOSS AND IT'S THE FIRST OF ITS KIND IN MY LIFE, THAT YOU ARE KIND OF ADMITTED AS A CITIZEN TO THE KINGDOM OF GRIEF.
PEOPLE AROUND ME, PEOPLE QUITE CLOSE TO ME WHO HAD NOT KIND OF COME FORTH WITH THEIR OWN STORIES OF LOSS AND THE LOSS THEY WERE LIVING WITH THAT WAS GRINDING AT THECM EVERY DAY, STARTED TO OFFER THEM UP.
IT'S KIND OF AMAZING.
IT'S THIS HIDDEN UNDERCURRENT.
MY TAKEAWAY -- I HAVE HAD A LOT OF THOUGHTS ABOUT THIS.
IT HAS BEENGUT-WRENCHING TIME.
I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE OTHER PEOPLE IS FEELING AND BE MORE TOLERANT.
WHEN YOU HOLD THIS KIND OF THING INSIDE, YOU START TO -- YOU REALIZE THAT IT REALLY DOES HAVE A WARPING AFFECT ON HOW YOU MOVE THROUGH THE WORLD.
I DIDN'T -- DIXIE WAS 19.
BRI BRAVE AND DELIGHTFUL COLLEGE STUDENT WHO DIED IN A CAR ACCIDENT.
IT'S NOT A COVID DEATH.
IT'S A MOMENT WHERE I THINK THERE'S BURIED GRIEF.
I FIND MYSELF A LITTLE MORE ALIVE TO IT.
CAN I ASK YOU, BECAUSE CLEARLY YOU AND YOUR FAMILY ARE GOING THROUGH UNBEARABLE LOSS.
NO MATTER HOW MUCH EVERYBODY ELSE IS IN DIFFERENT LANES IN THEIR LIVES, THIS IS ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED TO YOU AND YOUR FAMILY.
YOU TALKED ABOUT THE EXHAUSTION.
I HAVE HEARD THAT.
I HAVE HEARD GRIEF-STRICKEN FAMILIES TALK ABOUT EXHAUSTION.
YOU SAID, WE'RE NOT VERY GOOD AT DEATH AND GRIEF.
I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT ANOTHER WONDERFUL WRITER WHO I HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO INTERVIEW.
SHE LOST BOTH HER PARENTS.
IT HAPPENED, SOME DURING COVID.
SHE TALKED ABOUT THE RITUAL OF A CATHOLIC MASS IN NIGERIA FOR HER FATHER'S DEATH.
THAT'S WHAT THEY WERE, CATHOLIC.
THEN THE -- THEY WERE FROM THE IGBO TRIBE OF THE PUBLIC RITUALS OF THAT TAKING PLACE AND HOW IT WAS COMFORTING AND A WAY TO EXPRESS.
SHE SAID, I STARTED TO UNDERSTAND THAT THERE'S A SENSE IN WHICH VOCALIZING PAIN IN THAT KIND OF COMMUNAL WAY CAN ACTUALLY BE COMFORTING.
I WONDER WHETHER YOU HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO DO THAT IN YOUR OWN WAY.
IT'S A REALLY INTERESTING OBSERVATION.
YES, THE ANSWER IS YES.
THERE'S REAL TRUTH IN THAT TO ME.
OUR WAY IS -- IT'S THE SAME WAY.
IT'S WITH COMMUNITY.
WHEN YOU SUFFER THE LOSS OF A CHILD -- I MEAN, IN OUR -- WHAT HAPPENED WITH US IS THERE WAS THIS SUB MMERGED COMMUNITY OF CONNECTIONS OF LOVE.
IT ROSE UP AND SURROUNDED US.
TRYING TO TAKE CARE OF US IN MANY WAYS.
IT DOES TWO THINGS.
ONE, I MEAN, IT'S NICE TO KNOW OTHER PEOPLE CARE.
BUT IT'S MORE THAN THAT.
YOU REALIZE THAT -- WE REALIZE THAT THE LOSS OF DIXIE ISN'T JUST OUR LOSS.
I HAVE BEEN SURPRISED BY JUST HOW DEEPLY THIS STRUCK OTHER PEOPLE WHO KNEW HER.
YOU ARE AWARE THAT IT ISN'T -- YOU AREN'T ALONE IN THE LOSS.
THERE'S A LONELINESS TO LOSS THAT IS -- IT SOOTHS BY COMPANY.
HAVING SAID THAT, THE HONEST TO GOD TRUTH IS THAT I HAVE FOUND THAT ALL RELEASE IS TEMPORARY.
I WAKE UP EVERY MORNING THINKING OF HER.
I GO TO BED EVERY NIGHT THINKING OF HER.
IT'S REALLY VERY DIFFICULT TO GET USED TO THE IDEA OF NOT HAVING THIS CHILD IN MY LIFE AND IN THE WORLD.
I DON'T WANT TO OVERSTATE HOW HELPFUL RITUAL IS OR HOW HELPFUL COMMUNITY IS.
I THINK THAT THERE ARE LIMITS.
I THINK THAT I HAVE BEEN STRUCK BY -- THIS MAY BE MY OWN EXPERIENCE.
THAT NOTHING ANYBODY HAS SAID EXACTLY CAPTURES THE REALITY OF WHAT I'M GOING THROUGH.
I THINK IT'S BECAUSE IN EACH CASE, IT'S DIFFERENT.
IT'S WHAT YOUR RELATIONSHIP WAS WITH THIS PERSON.
WHO THIS PERSON WAS, WHO YOU ARE, HOW THEY DIED.
I THINK THAT HOW YOU PROCESS -- HOW YOU ARE WIRED.
I THINK THAT IT'S -- THERE'S A DEEP DESIRE IN PEOPLE TO BASICALLY GO ON A BUS TOUR IN LIFE.
TO HAVE A GROUP OF PEOPLE TO GO THROUGH THINGS WITH.
I THINK IT REACHES ITS LIMITS HERE.
AT SOME POINT, YOU ARE GOING THROUGH SOMETHING BASICALLY ALONE.
YOU HAVE TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE TO GO THROUGH THIS IN YOUR OWN PARTICULAR WAY.
YOU CAN'T GRAB A BOOK OFF THE SHELF.
YOU CAN'T GRAB A PSYCHOLOGIST OFF THE SHELF AND THEY WILL GET YOU THROUGH IT.
YOU HAVE TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO GET YOURSELF THROUGH THE THING.
THAT'S WHERE I AM.
I RESERVE THE RIGHT TO CHANGE MY OPINIONS ON THIS EVERY DAY.
YOU HAVE --
IT'S A VOLATILE EMOTIONAL STATE.
I KNOW SIX MONTHS FROM NOW I MAY FEEL DIFFERENTLY THAN I FEEL NOW.
RIGHT NOW, I JUST -- I LOVED HER AND I MISS HER.
I WAS SO PROUD TO BE HER DAD.
I WAS GOING TO SAY, YOU HAVE EVER RIGHT TO CHANGE YOUR OPINIONS.
YES, IT'S INTENSELY PERSONAL.
OUR HEARTS ARE WITH YOU AND YOUR FAMILY.
IT HAPPENED AS YOU WERE OUT PROMOTING THE FIRST -- THE PUBLICATION OF 'THE PREMONITION' ABOUT THIS GLOBAL PANDEMIC THAT CAUSED SO MUCH DEATH.
NEARLY 5 MILLION PEOPLE NOW WE JUST SAID AS OF TODAY HAVE DIED OVER THE COURSE OF THE PANDEMIC AROUND THE WORLD.
YOU DECIDED TO WRITE 'THE PREMONITION' ABOUT THE EARLY PART OF IT.
YOU DECIDED TO FOCUS NOT ON ALL THE HAVOC CREATED, BUT OF THE GREAT INDIVIDUALS WHO HAD SO MANY PREMONITION ABOUT WHAT WAS COMING AND HAD THEY BEEN LISTENED TO, COULD HAVE MADE A MATERIAL DIFFERENCE, PARTICULARLY AT THE BEGINNING.
JUST STARTING WITH THE FACT THAT YOU POINT OUT, BOTH THE USA, WHERE WE ARE, AND THE UK, WITH THE BIGGEST RESOURCES, SHOULD HAVE COME OUT OF THE GATE THE MOST SUCCESSFULLY ON THIS, IN FACT, DIDN'T.
START FROM THERE ABBTHERE.
THE BOOK IS ABOUT -- IT'S ABOUT PEOPLE WHO TRIED TO PREPARE PARTICULARLY THE UNITED STATES FOR THIS EVENT.
WHO DID END UP PREPARING MUCH OF THE WORLD.
THE STRATEGY FOR DEALING WITH A NEW PATHOGEN BEFORE THERE'S ANY KIND OF VACCINE COMES OUT OF THE BUSH WHITE HOUSE.
IT'S THE WORK OF A HANDFUL OF DOCTORS WHO ACTUALLY NOT JUST THOUGHT ABOUT IT BUT WENT AND KIND OF LOOKED THROUGH HISTORY FOR -- WENT BACK TO 1918 TO SEE WHAT HAPPENED AND WHAT WORKED AND WHAT DIDN'T WORK.
THEY SOLD THE PUBLIC HEALTH COMMUNITY ON SOCIAL DISTANCING.
THEY SAID THEY HAD ENORMOUS -- THEY SAY UNTOLD LIVES.
NOT AS MANY IN THE UNITED STATES AS THEY MIGHT HAVE IF WE HAD EMBRACED THE STRATEGY THE WAY OTHER COUNTRIES DID.
THE STARTING POINT FOR ME -- THE END POINT OF THE BOOK WAS GOING TO BE WHEN THESE PEOPLE WHO TRIED TO SET US UP FOR SUCCESS REALIZE THAT WE HAD FAILED.
THAT WAS ABOUT JUNE OF LAST YEAR.
THERE WAS THIS REALLY STARTLING BUT VERY STABLE STATISTIC THAT KIND OF RIGHT FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE PANDEMIC RIGHT THROUGH TO THE MOMENT VACCINES ARE AVAILABLE, THAT THE UNITED STATES HAS FEWER THAN 5% OF THE PEOPLE ON THE PLANET.
WE HAD MORE THAN 20% OF THE DEATHS.
THAT IS AN INCREDIBLE STATEMENT JUST BY ITSELF, BECAUSE AS YOU SAY, THERE WERE A PRETTY -- A PRETTY SOPHISTICATED PANEL OF EXPERTS TWO YEARS AGO SAT DOWN AND TRIED TO JUDGE HOW RELATIVELY PREPARED DIFFERENT COUNTRIES WERE FOR THIS THING.
THEY JUDGED THAT THE UNITED STATES WAS THE BEST PREPARED.
IT'S A BIT LIKE PRESEASON COLLEGE FOOTBALL RANKINGS.
YOU HAVE TEAMS THAT HAVE ALL THESE STAR RECRUITS.
THEN YEAR AFTER YEAR, WHEN THEY HAVE TO PLAY THE GAME, THEY FALL APART.
IT'S A PROBLEM OF NOT A TALENT.
IT'S A PROBLEM OF ORGANIZATION.
I FOUND MYSELF LOOKING AT THE BEGINNING OF THIS -- OF THE PANDEMIC FOR PEOPLE WHO COULD EXPLAIN IT TO ME.
TEACH ME WHAT HAPPENED.
WHY HAD WE FAILED?
IT LED ME TO THESE PEOPLE.
IT'S VERY TELLING.
THEY WEREN'T IN THE CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL, IN THE WHITE HOUSE, THEY WEREN'T WHERE THEY NEEDED TO BE.
THE WRONG PEOPLE WERE IN THE WRONG PLACE MUCH AS ON A FOOTBALL TEAM BADLY MANAGED.
YEAH.
YOU HAVE THIS AMAZING CHARACTER WHO I WOULD LIKE YOU TO JUST FLESH OUT A BIT.
HAD SHE BEEN IN THE RIGHT PLACE OR DIFFERENT PLACE, THINGS COULD HAVE BEEN DIFFERENT.
YOU ALSO POINT OUT, GEORGE W.
BUSH YEARS AGO HAD BOUGHT A BOOK ON THE 1918 FLU PANDEMIC.
HE KNEW IT.
THERE WAS A PLAYBOOK.
THIS COUNTRY WAS PREPARED.
YET IT ALL SEEMED TO CRUMBLE WHEN IT ACTUALLY CAME TO ROOST HERE.
YES.
THE STORY OF THE U.S. RESPONSE STARTS WITH BUSH POST KATRINA, POST 9/11, ALIVE TO THE POSSIBILITY THAT TRAGIC ACCIDENTS CAN AND DO HAPPEN.
WE NEED TO PREPARE FOR THEM, EVEN IF THEY ARE REMOTE POSSIBILITIES.
IS HANDED A BOOK ABOUT HISTORY OF THE 1918 PANDEMIC.
HE ASKS SOMEBODY, WHAT'S THE PLAN?
HE IS TOLD, THERE ISN'T ONE REALLY.
HE SAYS -- HE IS ANGRY.
HE SAYS, WE'RE GOING TO CREATE A PLAN.
IN SHORT ORDER, HE GETS CONGRESS TO AUTHORIZE $7 BILLION FOR THE CREATION AND PROMOTION OF A PANDEMIC PLAN.
IT ATTRACTS -- WHAT THEY DO IS ACTUALLY REALLY INTERESTING.
IT'S AMAZING THIS HAPPENED WITHOUT ANYBODY PAYING MUCH ATTENTION.
THEY GO TO SEVEN RELEVANT AGENCIES LIKE THE DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES, THE DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS, PEOPLE INVOLVED IN ANY PANDEMIC RESPONSE, WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THE CDC.
THEY SAY, SEND US YOUR MOST ORIGINAL THINKER.
SOMEONE WHO IS GOING TO COME THINKING ABOUT THIS PROBLEM DIFFERENTLY.
TO THIS PROBLEM ARE ATTRACTED TWO DOCTORS.
THEY ARE -- THEY ARE JUST DOCTORS WHO -- THEY HAVE BEEN IN THE BUSINESS OF SAVING PEOPLE'S LIVES IN CRITICAL STATES.
THEY START TO THINK ABOUT THIS PROBLEM.
TWO YEARS LATER, THEY HAVE NOT ONLY PRODUCED THIS PLAN THAT INVOLVES SOCIAL DISTANCING AND SOME SELECTIVE CLOSURES OF INSTITUTIONS IN THE EVENT OF A PANDEMIC, BUT THEY HAVE ACTUALLY SOLD IT TO THE WORLD.
THAT'S PART OF THE STORY.
IT'S THE TRICK OF THE BOOK, I THINK, IS TO TAKE A CHARACTER WHO IS ACTUALLY REALLY IMPORTANT BUT HAS LOW STATUS, A LOCAL PUBLIC HEALTH OFFICER, AND MAKES HER THE MAIN CHARACTER.
THE LOCAL PUBLIC HEALTH OFFICER SHOULD HAVE BEEN THE MAIN CHARACTER IN THIS STORY.
THEY ARE THE PEOPLE WHO ARE COMMANDERS IN DISEASE CONTROL.
YOU HAVEN'T SEEN THEM OR MAY NOT HAVE THOUGHT YOU HAVE SEEN THEM, BUT THEY ARE THE ONES CONTROLLING TUBERCULOSIS OUTBREAKS OR MEASLES AND MENINGITIS OR WHATEVER.
THEY KNOW THE CONFLICTS THAT OCCUR WHEN YOU TRY TO MANAGE THIS.
THEY HAVE UNDERFUNDED AND IGNORED IT FOR TWO GENERATIONS.
IT'S NOT UNCOMMON FOR THEM WHEN THEY GET NEW CASES -- THEY HAVE THE SOURCE OF ALL REPORTING IN ADDITION TO CONTROL.
THEY WRITE THEM UP AND MAIL THEM TO THE CDC OR FAX THEM.
THEY ARE NOT PLUGGED IN ELECTRONICALLY.
MICHAEL LEWIS, IT'S A MUST READ, 'THE PREMONITION.'
OUR THOUGHTS ARE WITH YOU AND YOUR FAMILY.
THANK YOU.
> STAYING WITH COVID, NEXT TO A JOURNALIST SHINE MORGUE LIGHT ON WHAT WENT RIGHT DURING THE PANDEMIC.
GREG ZUCKERMAN IS AN INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER WITH 'THE WALL STREET JOURNAL.'
HIS NEW BOOK 'A SHOT TO SAVE THE WORLD' TAKES US BEHIND THE SCENES OF YEARS OF GROUNDBREAKING RESEARCH THAT PAVED THE WAY FOR THE mRNA VACCINES WE HAVE TODAY.
HERE HE IS TALKING WITH WALTER ISAACSON ABOUT THE LITTLE KNOWN SCIENTISTS WHO CREATED THEM.
THANK YOU.
WELCOME TO THE SHOW.
GREAT TO BE HERE.
A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE AFRAID OF THIS VACCINE BECAUSE IT HAPPENED SO FAST.
IT WAS THIS GREAT MIRACLE, AS YOU DESCRIBE IN THE BOOK.
WHEN YOU SAW HOW FAST IT HAPPENED, DID THAT REASSURE YOU OR DOES THAT MAKE YOU MORE SCARED ABOUT THIS VACCINE?
ONE OF THE GOALS OF MY BOOK IS TO SHOW THE EVOLUTION OF THE VACCINE APPROACHES, mRNA AND THE OTHERS I WRITE ABOUT, IS ACTUALLY A LONG AND WINDING ROAD GOING BACK DECADES.
IN SOME WAYS IT'S VERY REASSURING, THE INVESTORS, EXECUTIVES SPENT YEARS AND YEARS WORKING AND IMPROVING AND HONING THESE APPROACHES.
IT WAS NOT AN OVERNIGHT SUCCESS AS ONE MIGHT THINK.
THEY WEREN'T SURE THESE APPROACHES WERE READY ON THE EVE OF THIS GREAT PANDEMIC.
THEY HAD AN INKLING, A GOOD IDEA.
TURNS OUT THEY WERE RIGHT.
IN SOME WAYS, IT'S REASSURING THAT IT TOOK DECADES ACTUALLY, NOT MONTHS OR EVEN WEEKS TO GET THESE VACCINES REALLY DONE.
THE MESmRNA, PFIZER AND MODE, THOSE ARE THE BIG BREAKTHROUGHS.
TELL ME ABOUT THE EARLY BREAKTHROUGHS, INCLUDING AT THE UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA, THAT HELPED PEOPLE FIGURE OUT, HOW DO YOU USE A MESSENGER STRAND TO BUILD A LOW PROTEIN IN OUR BODY THAT WILL ACT AS A VACCINE?
SURE.
mRNA IS A MOLECULE.
WE HAVE IT.
IT SENDS A MESSAGE TO OUR CELLS TO CREATE PROTEINS WHICH WE DEPEND ON.
WE LIVE THANKS TO THE PROTEINS.
IT MADE SENSE TO SAY, WHAT IF IN OUR LAB WE COULD CREATE SOME OF THESE MOLECULES?
GOING BACK DECADES -- I GO BACK TO 1990 WHERE THERE'S A REALLY INTERESTING AND GROUNDBREAKING PIONEERING SCIENTIST NAMED JOHN WOLF IN WISCONSIN WHO DOES EARLY WORK ON CREATING THESE mRNA MOLECULES IN THE LAB.
IT'S BEEN THE HOLY GRAIL THING AMONG SOME IN THE WORLD OF SCIENCE, WHAT IF WE CREATED THE mRNA MOLECULES TO CREATE SOMETHING LIKE -- YOU COULD SEE IT AS YOUR OWN FACTORY, YOUR OWN BODY BECOMES THE FACTORY, CREATING ANY KIND OF MEDICINE OR VACCINE THAT YOU WANT.
THEY SPENT A LONG TIME ON IT.
AS YOU SUGGEST, FIRST THERE WAS THIS JOHN WOLF.
HE PASSED THE BATON TO A GROUP AT DUKE.
THEY PASSED IT TO A COUPLE OF RESEARCHERS AT THE UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA.
THEY DID GROUNDBREAKING STUFF.
THEIR WORK WAS FOCUSED ON GETTING THIS mRNA INTO THE CELL AND NOT HAVING THE CELL, THE BODY'S IMMUNE SYSTEM FIGHT IT OFF.
THAT WAS A PROCESS THAT REALLY TOOK YEARS.
THEY DID A LOT OF IMPRESSIVE WORK.
A LOT OF THE GOAL OF MY BOOK IS TO HIGHLIGHT SOME OF THE BREAKTHROUGH REALLY IMPRESSIVE CRUCIAL WORK DONE BY SCIENTISTS OVER THE YEARS.
IT TOOK YEARS AND YEARS TO DO IT.
NOW mRNA IS ON THE THRESHOLD OF SAVING THE WORLD IN TERMS OF THIS VIRUS, BUT ALSO POTENTIALLY TAKING ON OTHER DISEASES.
YOU MENTIONED THE RESEARCHERS OF THE UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA WHO DO GROUNDBREAKING WORK TO GET THE mRNA INTO OUR CELLS AND NOT BE REJECTED.
ONE OF THE CONTROVERSIAL THINGS IS THEY DO NOT LICENSE THEIR PATENT TO MODERNA.
WHAT HAPPENS WHEN A COMPANY LIKE MODERNA WANTS TO MAKE mRNA AND THEY CAN'T GET A PATENT?
IT'S A REAL CHALLENGE.
IT WAS A PROBLEM FOR MODERNA.
THEY HAVE A GREAT IDEA.
THEY ARE IN CAMBRIDGE, MASSACHUSETTS.
THEY WANT TO USE THE mRNA MOLECULES TO CREATE THEM TO CREATE VACCINES.
THEY CAN'T GET THE LICENSE.
UPENN LICENSED IT AND NOTHING CAME OF THAT.
THEY WERE STUCK.
IT CAME DOWN TO A YOUNG SCIENTIST, ONE OF THE FIRST HIRES AT MODERNA.
THE GUY WHO DOESN'T GET MUCH CREDIT.
HE IS LABORING ALONE IN THE BOWELS OF A LABORATORY IN CAMBRIDGE, MASSACHUSETTS.
HE FIGURES OUT HIS OWN WAY TO MODIFY THE CHEMICAL BASIS OF mRNA TO MAKE IT SUCH THAT THE IMMUNE SYSTEM DOESN'T REJECT IT.
IT'S GROUNDBREAKING, BREAKTHROUGH STUFF.
HE HAS NEVER GOTTEN CREDIT.
HE SHOULD GET A LOT OF THANKS.
YOUR BOOK IS FILLED WITH COLORFUL CHARACTERS.
ONE OF THE MINOR CHARACTERS I LOVE WAS HELPING MODERNA MANUFACTURE THE VACCINE.
WE SEE HIM AT THE BEGINNING STOCKPILING TOILET PAPER.
AT THE END OF THE BOOK CRYING.
TELL ME ABOUT HIM.
YEAH.
A FASCINATING GUY.
INTERESTING, GOOD GUY.
HE RUNS MANUFACTURING AT MODERNA.
IN JANUARY OF 2020, HE STARTED GETTING NERVOUS.
THINGS HE READ AND INSTINCT.
HE HAD BEEN AROUND THE INDUSTRY A LITTLE WHILE.
HE IS NOT A SCIENTIST BUT IN THE DRUG BUSINESS.
HE STARTED TELLING HIS PERSONAL FAMILY IN BOSTON, WE HAVE TO START GETTING NERVOUS, WE HAVE TO START STOCKING UP.
HE STARTED BUYING TOILET PAPER, PAPER TOWELS.
HE BOUGHT A THIRD REFRIGERATOR.
HIS FAMILY THOUGHT HE WAS INSANE.
THEY THOUGHT HE WAS NUTS.
THEY STARTED LAUGHING AT HIM.
ARE YOU CRAZY?
WE HAVE INSTINCTS.
TL THERE'S SOMETHING IN CHINA.
THEY PETERED OUT.
WON'T IT DO THE SAME THING?
THEY WERE MAKING FUN OF HIM.
SADLY, HIS OWN MOTHER-IN-LAW PASSED AWAY OF COVID ABOUT A MONTH LATER.
THEY LIKE THE REST OF US, HIS FAMILY, STARTED REALIZING THE SERIOUSNESS OF THIS.
HIS HEART IS INVOLVED IN THIS THING.
FRANKLY, THE PEOPLE AT MA ODERN THEY OWN SHARES.
THESE PEOPLE PUT THEIR HEART AND SOUL INTO CREATING VACCINES TO SAVE THE WORLD.
FOR AS MANY PEOPLE AS THEY HAVE SAVED, THEY BEAT THEMSELVES UP ABOUT WHO THEY SHOULD HAVE -- HOW MANY MORE VACCINES THEY COULD HAVE MADE, HOW MUCH MORE THEY COULD HAVE DONE.
ON ONE HAND, HE WAS VERY PROUD OF WHAT HE HAD DONE.
HE SHOULD BE.
HE FEELS HE COULD HAVE DONE MORE.
IN SOME WAYS, THEY ARE EMOTIONALLY SHOT, SOME OF THE PEOPLE INTERNALLY.
THEY ARE TRYING TO HEAL IN SOME WAY FS FROM THIS PAST YEAR.
THEY WERE A SMALL COMPANY.
NOW THEY ARE A HOUSEHOLD NAME.
THEY WEREN'T.
IT'S IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER THAT.
I THINK TO SHARE SOME APPRECIATION FOR SOME OF THE WORK THAT THESE PEOPLE HAVE DONE, INCLUDING JUAN.
ONE OF THE HEROES IN YOUR BOOK IS THE GUY AT VIONTECH WHO CREATES THE PFIZER VACCINE.
THEY ARE DISTRIBUTING IT.
HE IS AN INTERESTING CHARACTER.
TELL ME HOW HE SORT OF BECOMES THE WINNER IN FIRST GETTING mRNA TO WORK AS A VACCINE.
A LIFE LONG CANCER RESEARCHER.
NOT REALLY FOCUSED NECESSARILY ON DISEASES LIKE COVID, THAT THING.
HE ALWAYS BELIEVED IN THE BODY'S IMMUNE SYSTEM.
HE BELIEVED THERE ARE WAYS TO WAKE IT UP, TO TEACH IT.
THAT MAYBE WE HAVEN'T APPROACHED IN THE PAST.
HE DEDICATED HIS LIFE TO THAT.
HE STARTED A COMPANY.
THEY WEREN'T MAKING THAT MUCH PROGRESS ON THE SURFACE, TO THE OUTSIDE WORLD.
INTERNALLY, THEY WERE GETTING MORE EXCITED ABOUT THEIR APPROACHES, INCLUDING mRNA.
HE IS AN INTERESTING GUY.
HE LIVES WITH HIS WIFE WHO CO-RUNS THE COMPANY, WHO IS ALSO A CANCER RESEARCHER.
THEY LIVE IN AN APARTMENT IN GERMANY.
HE DOESN'T OWN A CAR OR TELEVISION.
HE GOES ON VACATIONS AND LUGS COMPUTERS WITH HIM AND SCIENTIFIC PAPERS AND BRINGS THEM TO THE POOL.
HE DEMANDS THAT DEDICATION FROM HIS OWN EMPLOYEES.
THEY CAN BE SEEN -- YOU WOULD APPRECIATE THIS -- AS A LITTLE STEVE JOBS LIKE.
THEY DEMAND A LOT OF DEDICATION.
THEY ARE QUIRKY, INTERESTING CHARACTERS.
SOMETIMES GENIUS RESULTS FROM THAT.
ONE HAS TO THANK BOTH OF THOSE CHARACTERS.
AS I LOOK AT THE CHARACTERS IN YOUR BOOK AND I GO THROUGH T THEM, YOU CAN SEE WHERE I'M GOING.
THEY ARE ALL IMMIGRANTS, FLEEING OPPRESSION.
THEY ALL -- SO MANY OF THEM -- ALMOST EVERY MAJOR CHARACTER IN YOUR BOOK IT SEEMS HAS COME TO THE U.S. AS AN IMMIGRANT.
WHY IS THAT?
IT'S A GREAT POINT.
THEY WOULD ARGUE THAT IT NEEDED TO BE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF AMERICAN INVESTORS.
THE TURKISH IMMIGRANT TO G GERMANY.
THE COMPANY IS GERMAN.
THEY DID THEIR INITIAL PUBLIC OFFERING IN THE UNITED STATES.
THEY GOT KEY INVESTMENT MONEY FROM THE UNITED STATES.
WE HAVE A CAPITAL MARKET THAT COMPANIES TURN TO, DEPEND ON FOR CRUCIAL INVESTMENT MONEY.
I THINK THAT IT'S IMPORTANT TO REMIND US ALL OF THOSE ACHIEVERS OFTEN ARE IMMIGRANTS WHO COME TO THIS COUNTRY, THEY STRIVE, THEY ARE HUNGRY, THEY FOCUS ON EDUCATION OFTEN.
THEY ARE IMPRESSIVE.
THE CEO OF PFIZER IS AN IMMIGRANT TO THE UNITED STATES.
TIME AND TIME AGAIN, WITHIN THE COMPANIES, THE SCIENTISTS AS WELL, IT'S STRIKING AND IMPRESSIVE.
THE CHARACTERS YOU TALKED ABOUT AREN'T ALL THAT FAMOUS.
WEREN'T BEFORE THIS HAPPENED.
THEY WEREN'T THE PREMIERE RESEARCHERS AND BIG DRUG COMPANIES LIKE MERCK.
ONE OF THE AMAZING THINGS IS, WHY DOES MERCK FAIL?
WHY DO THESE UNKNOWN PEOPLE SUCCEED?
I THINK THAT'S ONE OF THE MOST INTERESTING, AT LEAST TO ME, THEMES FROM MY BOOK.
YOU WOULD HAVE EXPECTED THE VACCINE GIANT TO HAVE BEEN THE ONE TO CREATE THESE VACCINES, TO SAVE THE WORLD.
THAT'S MERCK, SANOFI.
PFIZER WASN'T A VACCINE PLAYER, MODERNA, THESE GROUP IN OXFORD, THIS GROUP UP IN BOSTON I WRITE ABOUT THAT CREATED THE JOHNSON & JOHNSON VACCINE, THEY WERE OVERLOOKED.
THEY WERE UNDERPR DLAPPRECIATED.
DISMISSED.
VACCINES UNTIL THIS PAST YEAR WERE SEEN AS SORT OF A LOSER BUSINESS IN THE WORLD OF PHARMA.
MERCK, THEY ARE A BIG COMPANY.
THEY WEREN'T SURE IT WAS WORTH THEIR WHILE TO CHASE THE COVID VACCINE.
THERE WERE PEOPLE WHO DID WANT TO CHASE IT AND FOCUS ON IT.
HISTORICALLY, MERCK IS THE VACCINE GIANT.
WE DEPEND ON THEM FOR MUMPS AND MEASLES AND OTHER VACCINES.
THERE WERE RESEARCHERS WITHIN MERCK WHO PUSHED THE COMPANY AND EXECUTIVES.
WE SHOULD BE THE ONES TO DEVELOP A COVID VACCINE.
OTHERS IN THE COMPANY SAID, WE ARE DOING SO WELL WITH CANCER AND SOME OTHER AREAS.
THEY SAVED LIVES IN OTHER AREAS WITH CANCER DRUGS AND SUCH.
THEY DIDN'T WANT TO TAKE THEIR EYE OFF THE BALL.
THEY HAD SEEN WHAT HAPPENED IN THE PAST WITH MERS AND SARS AND WHAT IT TAKES TO GET THOSE VACCINES MADE AND HOW THOSE VIRUSES PETERED OUT.
THERE WERE SOME PEOPLE WITHIN MERCK WHO SAID IT WASN'T THEIR WHILE.
WHAT DID WE LEARN FROM THE ATTEMPT TO CREATE AN AIDS VACCINE?
WHY DON'T WE HAVE AN AIDS VACCINE?
THAT'S JUST A VIRUS AS WELL.
YEAH.
I START MY BOOK OFF WRITING ABOUT THE CHANCE FOR AN HIV VACCINE.
IT'S INSTRUCTIVE.
WE HAVE NEVER FIGURED OUT.
THERE IS FRUSTRATION AFTER FRUSTRATION.
ONE OF THE APPROACHES THAT WAS DEVELOPED TO FIGHT HIV AND DEVELOP A VACCINE IS THE APPROACH OF USING A VIRUS, A HARMLESS VIRUS, TO FERRY GENETIC INFORMATION TO THE BODY, TO THE CELLS AND TO TEACH THE IMMUNE SYSTEM TO -- THEY WERE TRYING TO DO HIV.
IT DIDN'T WORK WITH HIV.
MERCK SPENT YEARS ON IT.
I WRITE ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED.
IT'S SAD AND IT DIDN'T WORK.
IT EVEN POTENTIALLY HARMED.
FROM THAT FRUSTRATION CAME BOTH THE JOHNSON & JOHNSON AND THE ASTRAZENECA EFFORTS.
THOSE ARE EFFECTIVE VACCINES.
IT'S A LESSON THAT SCIENTIFIC BREAKTHROUGHS SOMETIMES COME FROM FRUSTRATION.
GETTING BACK TO YOUR POINT, HIV IS SO MUCH MORE CHALLENGING AND HARDER THAN OTHER ILLNESSES LIKE COVID.
WE HAVE CONCERNS ABOUT COVID AND WHAT IT BROUGHT.
HIV AS A DISEASE, AS A VIRUS, IT'S CHANGING ALL THE TIME.
IT CHANGES FROM BONE PERSON TO THE NEXT.
OUR IMMUNE SYSTEM NEEDS SO MUCH HELP AND IT HAS NOT BEEN PROVEN ANY WAY TO HELP FIGHT IT OFF.
MY HEROES IN MY BOOK ARE WORKING ON HIV.
THEY ARE NOT GIVING UP.
THE RESILIENCE THAT THEY SHOW IS PRETTY IMPRESSIVE.
WE ARE HOPING OVER THE NEXT FEW YEARS MAYBE THEY CAN HAVE SUCCESS THERE AS WELL.
HOW MUCH CREDIT SHOULD OPERATION WARP SPEED, LED BY ANOTHER IMMIGRANT, UNDER THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION GET FOR THESE VACCINES HAVING BEEN CREATED SO QUICKLY?
I THINK WE NEED TO GIVE A LOT OF CREDIT TO OPERATION WARP SPEED.
THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION DIDN'T DO A GREAT JOB BEFORE WARP SPEED IN TERMS OF INITIALLY REACTING TO THE VIRUS AND ITS SPREAD.
ONE CAN ARGUE THE ROLLOUT WASN'T DONE FLAWLESSLY.
BOTH BY THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION BUT BY THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION.
OPERATION WARP SPEED FUNNELED MONEY QUICKLY TO A LOT OF THE COMPANIES.
IT ALSO DID ALL KINDS OF REALLY IMPORTANT WORK THAT HASN'T BEEN FOCUSED ON IN TERMS OF LOGISTICS.
YOU NEED A PART, MODERNA IN MASSACHUSETTS, THERE ARE PARTS.
THEY WERE ABLE TO CLOSE ROADS AND FERRY THIS KIND OF STUFF AND OVER BRIDGES AND GET TRUCKS AND SUCH AND GET THE PARTS NECESSARY.
OPERATION WARP SPEED IS HELPFUL.
THAT SAID, SOMETIMES -- I WRITE ABOUT IT IN THE BOOK.
SOMETIMES IT THREW A WRENCH INTO THE PLANS, SET THEM BACK.
JUST LIKE ANY BUREAUBUREAUCRACY.
THERE ARE BUREAUCRATIC WAYS THEY SLOW THINGS DOWN.
THERE'S A REASON WHY PFIZER -- THEY SOLD VACCINES TO THE GOVERNMENT.
BUT THEY DIDN'T TAKE MONEY TO DEVELOP BECAUSE THEY THOUGHT IT WOULD SLOW THEM DOWN.
I DON'T THINK IT'S A COINCIDENCE THAT PFIZER IS THE FIRST COMPANY TO PRODUCE THE VACCINES.
IT HELPED THEM THEY DIDN'T TAKE MONEY FROM OPERATION WARP SPEED.
IT WAS VERY HELPFUL FOR ALL THE MAKERS.
THERE WERE TIMES WHEN IT SLOWED THINGS DOWN.
WHAT WAS THE THING THAT MOST SURPRISED YOU IN DOING THIS BOOK?
THE PRECARIOUS WAY MODERNA OR PFIZER WERE AND HOW CLOSE A CALL THEY HAD?
I WAS SURPRISED THAT AS RECENTLY AS THE SPRING AND EARLY SUMMER OF 2020, IT WASN'T CLEAR WHETHER MODERNA WAS GOING TO DEVELOP ANY VACCINE WHATSOEVER.
THEY HAD THE TECHNOLOGY.
THEY HAD THE APPROACH.
THEY PRODUCE AID A VACCINE.
IN TERMS OF MANUFACTURING ENOUGH, THEY DIDN'T HAVE THE MONEY.
THEY WERE DESPERATE FOR MONEY.
THEY WENT TO THE GATES FOUNDATION, NON-PROFITS, THEY WENT TO THE GOVERNMENT.
NO ONE GAVE THEM MONEY.
THEY HAD TO TURN TO WALL STREET.
I KIND OF FOUND INTERESTING.
BIG, BAD PHARMA LINKED UP WITH BIG, BAD WALL STREET.
THEY RAISED SO MUCH MONEY THAT THEY COULD FINALLY PRODUCE THESE VACCINES.
IT COULD HAVE GONE ANY OTHER WAY AND IT WAS VERY POSSIBLE THAT MODERNA WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN THE ONE TO PRODUCE THESE VACCINES.
YOU HAVE WRITTEN ABOUT WALL STREET.
YOU HAVE WRITTEN ABOUT HEDGE FUNDS.
IS OUR SYSTEM A WACKY ONE OR IS IT A GOOD ONE WHERE A SMALL COMPANY LIKE MODERNA HAS TO HUSTLE FOR MONEY AND MAYBE THERE'S GOVERNMENT SUPPORTING FOR BASIC RESEARCH AND FINALLY MAYBE THEY CAN GO TO WALL STREET AND GET INVESTORS?
IS THAT AN EFFICIENT AND GOOD WAY TO DO THINGS?
IT'S A LITTLE LIKE CHURCHILL SAID ABOUT DEMOCRACY.
IT'S NOT THE BEST SYSTEM, BUT IT BEATS ALL THE OTHERS.
THERE ARE A LOT OF INVESTORS OUT THERE, VENTURE CAPITAL INVESTORS AND OTHERS, SMALL INVESTORS LIKE YOU AND I WHO ARE READY TO PUT MONEY INTO COMPANIES WITH JUST -- ON A PROMISE, ON THE HOPE.
THERE'S A LITTLE COMPANY I WRITE ABOUT THAT I THINK WILL COME OUT WITH A REALLY EFFECTIVE COVID VACCINE.
IT WAS A DOLLAR A SHARE GOING INTO 2020.
THERE WERE INVESTORS WHO BELIEVED.
CAPITALISM DOES GET SOME CREDIT FOR THESE COVID VACCINES AND FOR THE CRITICISM, WE HAVE TO GIVE APPRECIATION.
GREG ZUCKER MMAN, THANK YOU R BEING WITH US.
A LOT OF FUN.
A MIRACLE OF SCIENCE.
> TONIGHT, WE RETURN TO THE FIGHT FOR RACIAL JUSTICE.
ONE THAT THIS 82-YEAR-OLD WOMAN IS NOT GIVING UP ON.
CLAUDETTE IS FILING A MOTION TO CLEAR HER NAME FROM A CONVICTION IN 1955.
THAT'S WHEN, AGE 15, SHE WAS ARRESTED IN JIM CROW MONTGOMERY, BAM, ALABAMA, FOR REFUSING TO GIVE UP HER SEAT ON A BUS TO A WHITE PERSON.
SHE NEVER COMMITTED A CRIME AND THE D.A. AGREES SAYING SHE ACTED PURELY OUT OF CONSCIENCE.
UPON LEAVING COURT, SHE QUIPPED --
I'M 82 YEARS OLD.
WHAT IT MEANS THAT, I'M NO LONGER A JUVENILE DELINQUENT.
RECALLING THAT DAY, SHE SAID SHE HAD BEEN THINKING OF FREEDOM AND FEMALE HEROES.
I WAS NOT GOING TO MOVE THAT DAY, SHE SAID.
I TOLD THEM THAT HISTORY HAD ME GLUED TO THAT SEAT.
ON THAT NOTE, THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.
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JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.
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