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WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY."
HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.
A DISPUTED ELECTION IN GEORGIA.
PRESIDENT SALOME ZOURABICHVILI JOINS ME FROM TBILISI.
SHE SAYS VOTERS ARE VICTIM OF RUSSIA'S HYBRID WARFARE.
THEN -- IRAN ATTACKS.
ISRAEL RESPONDS.
WHAT HAPPENS NOW?
I ASK ANALYST ALI VAEZ HOW TO RESOLVE TENSIONS IN AN ALREADY VOLATILE REGION.
AND -- >> MAKE SOMETHING BEAUTIFUL.
HAVE HONEST CONVERSATION.
DON'T FALL BACK ON CLICHE.
AND BE BRAVE.
>> A CONTROVERSIAL DANCE WORK RETURNS TO THE STAGE, LEGENDARY CHOREOGRAPHER BILL T. JONES IS STILL HERE.
ALSO -- >> IT IS IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND, WHAT DOES MASS DEPORTATION REALLY MEAN?
>> HARI SREENIVASAN SPEAKS WITH AARON REICHLIN-MELNICK ABOUT THE REAL COST OF DONALD TRUMP'S MASS DEPORTATION PLAN.
>>> "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.
JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WEIR.
THE SYLVIA A.
AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM.
THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.
MARK J. BLECHNER.
THE FILOMEN D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION.
SETON J. MELVIN.
THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND.
CHARLES ROSENBLUM.
KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN.
COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.
BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, AND JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS.
AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.
THANK YOU.
>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.
IN TBILISI, GEORGIA, VOTERS HAVE COME OUT TO PROTEST THE RESULTS SAYING, THE OPPOSITION LEADERS SAY IT WAS TAINTED BY RUSSIAN INTERFERENCE.
OUTSIDE OBSERVERS REPORT TROUBLING CONDITIONS.
CITING PERVASIVE INTIMIDATION.
A VOTER'S INSIDE AND OUTSIDE POLLING STATIONS.
VIDEOS LIKE THIS ARE CIRCULATING, CLAIMING BLATANT BALLOT STUFFING.
AND THIS CONTESTED ELECTION IS NOT HAPPENING IN A VACUUM.
IN MOLDOVA, IN LITHUANIA, THE CZECH REPUBLIC AND IN GEORGIA, THERE ARE PERSISTENT ALLEGATIONS OF RUSSIAN INTERFERENCE AS MOSCOW USES VARIOUS METHODS OF HYBRID WARFARE TO DETER COUNTRIES.
SHE IS JOINING US FROM TBILISI.
WELCOME BACK TO OUR PROGRAM.
>> THANK YOU.
YOU'VE BEEN OUTSIDE.
YOU'VE JUST COME IN FROM THESE PROTESTS WHICH YOU CALLED SO FAR THEY'RE PEACEFUL TO PROTEST THIS VOTE AND NOT TO ACCEPT IT.
WHY EXACTLY?
PEOPLE WENT TO THE POLLS.
ARE YOU NOT WORRIED ABOUT, I DON'T KNOW, VIOLENCE OR SOME AWFUL CRACKDOWN OR SOMETHING?
>> NOT AT ALL.
WE HAVE SEEN PROTESTS WHEN THE RUSSIAN LAWS WERE ADOPTED.
WE HAVE SEEN PROTESTS LAST YEAR.
THIS YEAR, THE GEORGIAN POPULATION IS VERY PEACEFUL BUT THEY PEACEFULLY DEFEND THEIR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS TO HAVE THEIR VOTE, TO KEEP THEIR VOTE, AND IN THIS CASE, IT'S MORE THAN THEIR VOTES, IT IS THEIR EUROPEAN FUTURE.
>> LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT WHAT LEADS YOU TO SAY THAT THEY HAVE BEEN RIGGED.
WE'VE HEARD OBVIOUSLY FROM OUTSIDE OBSERVERS AND THE OTHERS.
WE KNOW THAT RUSSIA STILL OCCUPIES, I THINK, ABOUT 20% OF YOUR TERRITORY, SIMILAR TO WHAT IT OCCUPIES IN UKRAINE.
BUT IT OBVIOUSLY DENIES INTERFERING.
WHAT IS YOUR EVIDENCE?
>> THE EVIDENCE IS THE FACT THAT 70% OF THE GEORGIAN POPULATION IN ALL OPINION POLLS ARE SUPPORTING THE EUROPEAN WAY AND THE EUROPEAN INTEGRATION.
AND SUDDENLY, IT IS TURNED AROUND IN ONE ELECTION WHEN PEOPLE HAVE BEEN COMING OUT STEADILY TO SUPPORT THIS.
EVERYTHING HAS BEEN USED IN THIS ELECTION.
ALL THE DIFFERENT RIGGING OF ELECTION, ALL THE INSTRUMENTS, ESPECIALLY A NEW ONE, ELECTRONIC VOTING, WHICH HAS BEEN PROVEN THAT THEY HAVE BEEN USING I.D.
'S THAT WERE TAKEN FROM CITIZENS AND THEY HAVE BEEN USED SEVEN TIMES, TEN TIMES, 17 TIMES.
ALL THIS EVIDENCE HAS BEEN AND IS BEING COLLECTED.
WHAT IS NOW IN PROCESS IS SHOWING THE SYSTEMIC NATURE OF THE VIOLATIONS THAT HAVE TAKEN PLACE.
FLAWS WE HAVE KNOWN, FLAWS OF THIS EXTENT, AND FLAWS OF THIS MULTIPLICITY OF MANNERS IS THE FIRST TIME IT IS WITHOUT PRECEDENT IN GEORGIA AND ALSO IN OTHER COUNTRIES.
>> YOU MENTIONED, AND WE MENTIONED THAT, WELL, YOU SAID THAT A LOT OF YOUR POPULATION CAME OUT TO PROTEST THE RUSSIAN LAWS LIKE ANTI-LGBTQ LAWS THAT THIS PARTY THAT CLAIMS TO HAVE WON IMPOSED.
BECAUSE IT IS IN POWER.
THE PRIME MINISTER, YOU ARE PRESIDENT.
SO THAT IS A CRACKDOWN ON FOREIGN NGOs, CALLING THEM FOREIGN AGENTS LIKE THE RUSSIANS HAVE AND ET CETERA.
BUT GEORGIAN DREAM SAYS THEY TOO ARE PRO EU.
THEY ALSO WANT TO GET IT.
THEY READ THE SAME POLLS YOU DO.
THAT THE MASS POPULATION WANTS TO JOIN THE E.U.
SO THEY WANT TO JOIN THE E.U.
WHY WOULD THEY BE INTERFERING?
>> I DON'T KNOW.
BUT CLEARLY, WHO WE HAVE TO LISTEN TO ARE THE EUROPEANS THAT HAVE CLEARLY SAID TO THE GEORGIAN AUTHORITIES, TO THE RULING PARTY, YOU CANNOT PRETEND THAT YOU WILL JOIN THE EU DOING WHAT YOU ARE DOING.
YOU CANNOT JOIN WHILE DOCUMENTING RUSSIAN LAW.
YOU CANNOT JOIN WHEN YOU'RE ANNOUNCING AS YOUR ELECTION PROGRAM THAT YOU WILL PUT IN THE ELECTION LEADERS, YOU WILL BAN THE THAT ON SIGNIFICANCE PARTIES, THAT YOU WILL PUT THE ORGANIZATIONS UNDER RUSSIAN LAWS THE WAY THE SOCIETY IS TREATED IN RUSSIA.
SO THAT IS THE ANSWER OF ALL THE EUROPEAN LEADERS AND OF THE REASON EUROPEAN COUNCIL.
THERE WILL BE A NEW COUNCIL IN COMING DAYS WHICH WILL CERTAINLY CONFIRM THIS.
IT IS NOT UP TO THE GEORGIAN PRIME MINISTER TO SAY AT WHAT CONDITIONS WE WILL JOIN EUROPE.
THE GEORGIAN POPULATION IS READY.
>> WHAT DO YOU EXPECT THE PROTEST TO ACHIEVE?
>> WELL, TODAY IS JUST A DEMONSTRATION AND IT IS VERY IMPRESSIVE.
I JUST CAME BACK FROM THERE.
IT IS VERY IMPRESSIVE, THE DEMONSTRATION THAT HAS BEEN JUST ANNOUNCED YESTERDAY IS FEELING OUT THE MAIN AVENUE.
THOSE PEOPLE ARE COMING VERY PEACEFULLY TO SAY WE HAVE VOTED.
WE WANT OUR VOTES TO BE DEFENDED.
AND WE WANT OUR EUROPEAN FUTURE, OUR INTEGRATION FUTURE TO BE DEFENDED.
THAT'S ALL THEY ARE SAYING.
TODAY THEY ARE LISTENING TO THE POLITICAL PARTIES AND TO THEIR GAME PLANS THAT THEY ARE PROPOSING AND THAT WILL CONTINUE PROBABLY THE NEXT DAY.
I DON'T KNOW EXACTLY WHEN.
NOW THE OUTCOME OF ALL THIS IS TWOFOLD.
ONE IS THAT THEY ARE CALLS FOR INTERNATIONAL INVESTIGATIONS TO ADD TO THE EVIDENCE THAT HAS BEEN GATHERED HERE TO SHOW THE IMAGE, THE GLOBAL IMAGE, THE MASSIVE IMAGE OF THE MANIPULATION AND INTIMIDATION THAT HAPPENED.
AND THEN THE PRESSURE PROBABLY WILL COME FROM EUROPEAN AND AMERICAN GOVERNMENT THAT'S WILL CALL FOR AN INTERNATIONAL INVESTIGATION.
THE PRESSURE ON THE GOVERNMENT TO REVIEW, RE-EXAMINE THE RESULTS OF THIS ELECTION.
IF THAT DOESN'T HAPPEN IN TIME, THEN PROBABLY THE CALL WILL CHANGE TO NEW ELECTIONS.
THAT'S UP TO THE POPULATION.
>> SO GEORGIAN DREAM IS LABELED, I THINK BY YOU ALL, AS A PRO RUSSIAN, PRO KREMLIN PARTY.
THE BACKER IS GEORGIA'S RICHEST MAN, A BILLIONAIRE, HE HAS A FORTUNE WORTH SOME 25% OF YOUR GDP.
WHAT MAKES YOU THINK HE'S PRO RUSSIAN?
PEOPLE WHO SAY HIM SAY HE'S NOT PRO-AMERICAN, PRO-EU.
HE'S JUST PRO-HIMSELF.
>> HIS MONEY.
HE SAID IN A RECENT INTERVIEW, THAT'S WHAT IS IMPORTANT, GEORGIAN POLICIES.
THE POLICIES OF THE GEORGIAN DREAM SINCE THE LAST TWO AND A HALF YEARS AT LEAST HAVE BEEN GRADUALLY MOVING TOWARD MOSCOW.
MOSCOW HAS BEEN CONSTANTLY COMPLIMENTING, INCLUDING VERY RECENTLY, THE RESULT OF THE ELECTIONS.
COMPLIMENTING THE GEORGIAN DREAM AND MAKING SURE THAT THEY ARE CONFORMED TO THE PROPAGANDA OF RUSSIA ON MANY ISSUES THAT ARE VERY COMMON BETWEEN THIS GOVERNMENT AND MOSCOW.
AND THE INTERESTS OF MOSCOW IN THIS IS TO MAKE SURE THAT GEORGIA DOES NOT FOLLOW UP ON THE PATH TOWARD EUROPE.
WE HAVE GOTTEN THE CANDIDATE STATUS LAST DECEMBER.
WE WERE VERY CLOSE TO STARTING OUR PATH TO OPENING UP NEGOTIATIONS AND, AND EVERY MOVE THE GEORGIAN GOVERNMENT MADE THIS YEAR HAS CLEARLY DESIGNED TO GO AGAINST ALL OF THE RECOMMENDATIONS OF THE EUROPEAN COMMISSION TO MAKE SURE THAT WE DON'T GET THE APPROVAL OF THE -- >> OKAY.
>> THE EUROPEAN LEADERS.
>> AND THE, YOUR CURRENT PRIME MINISTER, HEAD OF GEORGIAN DREAM, HAS SAID THEY WON IN A LAND SLIDE AND CLAIMS THAT ANYTHING THAT THE OPPOSITION IS SAYING IS, YEAH, EVERY COUNTRY HAS IRREGULARITIES BUT NONETHELESS WE WON IN A LAND SLIDE.
GIVEN THAT ONE OF YOUR PREDECESSORS IS STILL IN JAIL, DO YOU WORRY THAT YOU MIGHT BE TARGETED IF THE OPPOSITION VICTORY STANDS?
OR IF THE GOVERNMENT VICTORY STANDS?
>> I'M NOT WORRIED ABOUT MYSELF.
I'M WORRIED ABOUT THE WHOLE COUNTRY AND WHERE IT CAN GO IF THINGS ARE IN THE HANDS OF THE GEORGIAN DREAM.
WHAT THEY HAVE SAID IN THEIR ELECTORAL PROGRAM IS THAT THEY WOULD PUT EVERYONE IN JAIL.
THAT THEY WILL BAN OPPOSITION PARTIES.
THAT THEY WILL IMPLEMENT COMPLETELY THE FOREIGN AGENTS WHICH WILL PREVENT NOT ONLY THE NGOs THAT ARE WORKING WITH OUR INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATIONS, BUT ALSO, HUMANITARIAN ORGANIZATIONS.
THAT COULD PREVENT ALSO THE TRANSFERS FROM OUR COMMUNITIES.
THAT'S THE PROGRAM OF THE GEORGIAN DREAM.
SO MAY FUTURE IN THAT IS NOT AS IMPORTANT AS THE FUTURE OF GEORGIA.
THAT'S WHAT OUR PARTNERS, BOTH EUROPEAN AND AMERICANS, HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT MORE THAN ABOUT MYSELF.
>> MADAM PRESIDENT, THANK YOU INDEED.
SO FOR JOINING US.
>>> NOW IRAN FACES A DILEMMA, WHETHER AND HOW TO RESPOND TO ISRAEL'S RETALIATORY STRIKES THIS WEEKEND.
WITH ONE REVOLUTIONARY GUARD DEMANDING ACTION WHILE ANOTHER SAYS WE DO NOT SEEK WAR.
HE WARNS THAT TENSIONS WILL ESCALATE IF ISRAEL CONTINUES ITS AGGRESSION.
IRAN REPORTS FIVE PEOPLE WERE KILLED IN THE ATTACK FRIDAY NIGHT.
BUT ISRAELI TARGETS AVOIDED NUCLEAR SITES, ENERGY PRODUCTION FACILITIES, AND LEADERSHIP POSITIONS.
SO WILL ISRAEL AND IRAN REVERT TO THEIR SHADOW BOXING POSTURES OR WILL THIS DIRECT CONFRONTATION ESCALATE?
ALI VAEZ IS DIRECTOR OF THE IRAN PROJECT AT THE INTERNATIONAL CRISIS GROUP AND HE'S JOINING ME FROM WASHINGTON.
WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.
SO WHAT IS THE CONVENTIONAL WISDOM?
OR WHAT ARE THE TEA LEAVES SAYING?
>> IT'S GREAT TO BE WITH YOU AGAIN.
THE REALITY IS THAT THE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC HAS NEVER BEEN AS VULNERABLE SINCE THE 1980s IN THE MIDDLE OF THE IRAN/IRAQ WAR.
ITS REGIONAL SHIELD, HEZBOLLAH, HAS BEEN CRACKED.
IT'S INTERNAL SHIELD, THE RUSSIAN-MADE DEFENSE SYSTEMS HAVE BEEN COMPLETELY DECIMATED BY THIS ISRAELI ATTACK.
AND A SWORD, ITS BALLISTIC MISSILES, HAVE BEEN DULLED AS A RESULT OF ISRAEL'S MULTILAYERED AERIAL DEFENSE SYSTEM.
AND IT IS NOW FACING A BUNCH OF REALLY, REALLY BAD OPTIONS.
IF YOU ALLOW ME TO USE A POKER ANALOGY TO REFER TO THE AYATOLLAH'S CALCULATIONS, I THINK THE THREE OPTIONS ARE EITHER TO CHECK, TO NOT RETALIATE.
THE CONCERN THERE IS THAT IF THEY USE THIS TIME TO REPAIR THEIR OWN INTERNAL DEFENSES AND TRY TO REHABILITATE THEIR REGIONAL ALLIES, ESPECIALLY HEZBOLLAH, IT MIGHT GET TOO LATE TOO QUICKLY.
BECAUSE THEY LEARNED THE LESSON FROM NOT RESPONDING AFTER THE KILLING, THAT IT ONLY ENCOURAGED ISRAEL TO GO TOO FAR TOO FAST.
ESPECIALLY IN DECAPITATING HEZBOLLAH.
AND THEREFORE, THERE IS CONCERN THAT THIS WOULD NORMALIZE ATTACKS ON TEHRAN AND INVITE EVEN MORE ATTACKS.
THE NEXT RESPOND IS TO RETAL , TO RETALIATE.
ONE RUNG HIGHER.
THAT COULD RESULT IF MORE DESTRUCTION ON THE GROUND IN ISRAEL AND EVEN POTENTIALLY AMERICAN OR ISRAELI CASUALTIES.
AND THEN THE ISRAELI COUNTER STRIKE WOULD BE MUCH MORE EFFECTIVE BECAUSE IRANIAN DEFENSES ARE MUCH WEAKER.
AND THEN FINALLY, THE FINAL OPTION IS TO GO ALL IN AND TRY TO DASH TOWARD NUCLEAR WEAPONS.
THAT'S ALSO EASIER SAID THAN DONE.
>> WHY IS THAT EASIER SAID THAN DONE?
YOUR LAST POINT IS WHAT IS BEING RAISED AS A CONCERN BY ANALYSTS IN WASHINGTON, AMERICANS, IN GOVERNMENT AND OUTSIDE GOVERNMENT WHO ARE SAYING PARADOXICALLY THIS COULD DO PRECISELY THAT.
>> ABSOLUTELY.
AND I'VE BEEN ARGUING FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE YEAR, THE MORE ISRAEL SUCCEEDS IN WEAKENING THE REGIONAL DETERRENCE, THE MORE IT FAILS TOWARD PUSHING TOWARD THE ULTIMATE DETERRENCE WHICH IS NUCLEAR WEAPONS.
THE REASON I SAY IT IS NOT AS MUCH STRAIGHTFORWARD, THE NUCLEAR PROGRAM IS DEEPLY PENETRATED BY WESTERN INTELLIGENCE.
IF THEY DECIDE TO DASH TOWARD NUCLEAR WEAPONS, IT WILL PROBABLY BE DETECTED AND IT WOULD, IN AND OF ITSELF, BECOME AN INVITATION BY ISRAEL AND THE UNITED STATES.
ALSO, THEY CAN REACH HALEY ENRICHED NUCLEAR MATERIAL.
THAT DOESN'T MEAN THEY HAVE A NUCLEAR WEAPON.
IT TAKES ABOUT 16 TO 18 MONTHS.
IN THAT PERIOD, THEY'RE VULNERABLE.
EVEN IF WE TAKE IT TO THE ULTIMATE END GAME, IF THEY HAVE NEWMANS, THIS YEAR ALONE, ISRAEL HAS ATTACKED BOTH PAKISTAN AND ISRAEL TO NUCLEAR WEAPON STATES.
THAT SHOWS THAT CONVENTIONAL, UNCONVENTIONAL DETERRENCE DOESN'T NECESSARILY PROTECT YOU AGAINST CONVENTIONAL ATTACKS.
>> INDEED.
LET ME ASK BUT THE UNITED STATES.
I WANT TO READ FROM ONE OF YOUR FELLOW ANALYSTS AND COLLEAGUES, THE FORMER STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL HAS SAID, YOU HAVE A DISCONNECT -- HE'S NOW TALKING ABOUT THE UNITED STATES AND ISRAEL.
YOU HAVE A DISCONNECT WHERE THE JUNIOR PARTNER IN THE ALLIANCE HAS A GRAND VISION FOR THE REGION AND THE SENIOR PARTY IS LEFT TRYING TO RESPOND TO EVENTS.
THIS IS NOT A GOOD PLACE FOR THE UNITED STATES TO BE.
CORE TO THE ASSUMPTION OF THE ISRAELIS IS THAT IN A WIDER WAR, THE UNITED STATES WILL BE DOING THE FIGHTING.
THE UNITED STATES IS SLEEPWALKING INTO ANOTHER LONG-TERM CONFLICT IN THE MIDDLE EAST.
SO DO YOU ALSO SEE THE U.S. AS THE WINGMAN OR THE PASSENGER RIGHT NOW?
>> I'M AFRAID SO FAR THIS HAS BEEN THE CASE.
AND THERE IS PLENTY OF BLAME TO PUT ON THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION FOR WHERE THE REGION IS IN GENERAL, WITH GAZA AND LEBANON AND NOW THE TENSIONS BETWEEN IRAN AND ISRAEL.
BUT I THINK WE SHOULD GIVE THEM CREDIT THAT IN THE ABSENCE OF AMERICAN PRESSURE, I THINK ISRAEL WOULD HAVE DONE MORE.
WOULD HAVE TARGETED IRANIAN CRITICAL INFRASTRUCTURE AND EVEN ITS NUCLEAR PROGRAM AND TENSIONS COULD HAVE ESCALATED AND SPIRALED OUT OF CONTROL.
THERE IS THE HOPE THAT AFTER THE ELECTIONS, WHETHER DEMOCRATS WINNER ON LOSE, PRESIDENT BIDEN WOULD HAVE LESS TO LOSE AND THINK ABOUT HIS LEGACY MORE AND THEREFORE WILLING TO EXERCISE MORE PRESSURE ON ISRAEL AND PULL THE PLUG ON THIS CYCLE OF ESCALATION, WHICH BY DEFINITION, WON'T HAVE ANY WINNERS.
>> DO YOU THINK IN SOME WAY, GIVEN THAT IRAN WHICH ISRAEL VIEWS AS ITS BIGGEST THREAT, HAS BEEN WEAKENED IN THE REGION, ALSO, WITH THE HAMAS, HEZBOLLAH KIND OF BEING DEATTEMPT INDICATED, WELL, BEING DECAPITATED.
DO YOU THINK THERE'S A CHANCE FOR THE UNITED STATES TO PUT EVEN MORE PRESSURE FOR A CEASE-FIRE IN GAZA, END OF WAR IN LEBANON?
HOW DO YOU SEE THE WIDER SITUATION PLAYING OUT?
>> LOOK, IF THE U.S. IS NOT IN PURSUIT OF MAXIMUM MALIST OBJECTIVES, AND I DON'T BELIEVE AT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION IS, OR IS ENGAGED IN DAY-DREAMING ABOUT A NEW ORDER IN THE REGION.
IT KNOWS THE LIMITS OF AMERICAN POWER AND BELIEVES THAT ALREADY ENOUGH HAS BEEN GAINED IN TERMS OF ISRAELI OBJECTIVES THAT AFTER THE ELECTIONS, THERE WOULD BE SPACE TO TRY TO TURN THESE TACTICAL WINS INTO SUSTAINABLE STRATEGIC WINS, AND THAT IS POSSIBLE NOW THAT IRAN FEEL MORE VULNERABLE AND LOOKING FOR AN OFF-RAMP.
THAT REQUIRES CREATIVITY AND COURAGE WHICH CAN ONLY HAPPEN IN A VERY SHORT WINDOW RIGHT AFTER THE U.S.
ELECTIONS.
>> FASCINATING.
THANK YOU.
>>> 30 YEARS AGO THIS WEEK, A GROUND-BREAKING MULTIMEDIA DANGS WORK CALLED "STILL/HERE" OPENED AT THE BROOKLYN ACADEMY OF MUSIC AND INVITED A CONTROVERSY THAT STILL ECHOS TODAY.
CHOREOGRAPHER BILL T. JONES FIRST STAGED "STILL/HERE" AT THE HEIGHT OF THE AIDS EPIDEMIC.
WHILE IT CONFRONTS EVERYONE'S MORTALITY, ONE PROMINENT PERSON, THAT MAN, BILL T. JONES, BEGS TO DID I EVER.
AND THREE DECADES LATER, HE'S ASKING NEW AUDIENCES TO WEIGH THE ARTISTIC MERITS OF THE PIECE FOR.
THEY.
I HAD A SOMETIMES FEISTY CONVERSATION WITH HIM AT BAM WHERE "STILL/HERE" RETURNS THIS WEEK.
>> WELCOME TO OUR PROGRAM.
>> GOOD MORNING.
>> GOOD TO SEE YOU.
>> THIS IS A PIECE OF WORK THAT YOU CONCEIVED, CREATED AND PERFORMED EXACTLY 30 YEARS AGO.
>> YES.
>> CREATIVE CHOREOGRAPHER OF "STILL/HERE."
FIRST TELL ME WHAT YOU CREATED.
WHAT WAS GOING THROUGH YOUR ARTISTIC MIND?
>> I SAID THE NEXT PIECE I MAKE WILL BE WITHOUT CONFLICTS.
LET'S CHOOSE A TOPIC.
YOU AS A WOMAN HAVE YOUR GRIPES, I'M SURE ABOUT THE CULTURE.
I AS A BLACK MAN HAVE MAIN.
GAY PEOPLE, TRANS PEOPLE.
WHAT COULD WE NOT DISAGREE ON?
THAT IS OUR MORTALITY.
SO I WANTED TO FIND A WORK THAT WOULD LET ME BREATHE SPIRITUALLY AND ALSO BE RELEVANT TO THE LIVES OF PEOPLE WHO MIGHT SEE IT.
IN THE WORKSHOPS, THE SURVIVOR WORKSHOPS, WE HAD A CONCEPT CALLED THE ARROGANCE OF THE.
WITH THERE WAS A FEELING AT THAT TIME, I'M NOT SURE IF IT'S TRUE NOW, THAT, YOU POOR THINGS, YOU'RE SO SICK, YOU'RE DYING.
THOSE POOR THINGS ARE US.
>> SO THE MORTALITY THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, THE CONTEXT WAS THE AIDS EPIDEMIC?
>> THE CONTEXT WAS LIFE.
AND AIDS WAS A DECOY FOR MANY PEOPLE.
THE REASON I MADE THIS, A WOMAN, A BREAST CANCER SURVIVOR, CHALLENGED ME TO MAKE IT.
I SAID WHAT DO I KNOW ABOUT BREAST CANCER?
SHE SAID FOR THAT REASON YOU SHOULD MAKE IT.
IT IS A FACT OF LIFE.
IT IS AS REAL AS BIRTH.
>> WHAT DO YOU WANT PEOPLE TO KNOW ABOUT MORTALITY?
>> IT BELONGS TO ALL OF US.
IT IS ONE OF THOSE CHALLENGES THAT FRIGHTEN THE HELL OUT OF US BUT IT IS ENNOBLING IF WE CAN FIND A WAY TO LIVE WITH IT.
THERE WAS A WOMAN DIAGNOSED WITH BREAST CANCER WHEN SHE WAS PREGNANT WITH HER CHILD.
WHAT IS THAT?
I MAY NOT EVEN BE AROUND TO LOVE MAY CHILD.
HOW DO YOU GET UP EVERY DAY?
HOW DO YOU LOVE?
THAT'S WHAT THE NAME OF THE SURVIVAL WORKSHOPS WERE.
PEOPLE WERE EXPLAINING THEIR STRATEGIES.
THIS IS A PIECE TO MAKE PEOPLE, HELP PEOPLE TO LIVE.
NOT TO MOURN.
THIS IS ABOUT US.
AND THAT IS THE CHALLENGE OF MAKING ART LIKE MINE THAT ASKED PEOPLE TO HAVE A STRONG, AESTHETIC POINT OF VIEW.
AT THE SAME TIME, TO BE OPEN AND BRAVE ENOUGH TO TALK AS HUMAN BEINGS FULL OF FEAR LIKE MOST OF US ARE.
>> WHAT DOES IT LOOK LIKE FOR THOSE WHO HAVEN'T SEEN THE ORIGINAL AND WILL COME TO VIEW THE REOPENING OCTOBER 30th.
AGAIN, 30 YEARS.
>> YES!
>> WHAT WILL WE SEE?
HOW DOES THAT SHOW UP WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT ON STAGE?
>> I WOULD HAVE TO BE A DANCE JOURNALIST.
>> YOU'RE A COULD GO I DON'T HO >> IT'S NOT THE SAME THING.
>> THE CURTAIN RISES ON A VERY BARE STAGE.
BUT THERE ARE SCREENS.
MY FRIEND, GRETCHEN WHO IS NOW A MUCH-REVERED ARTIST WAS TRYING TO FIND A VOCABULARY THAT WOULD SPEAK TO WHAT WE DISCOVERED IN THESE WORKSHOPS.
SHE AND I HAD BEEN TALKING ABOUT DAY TIME TELEVISION AND HOW, DON'T LOOK AT GERALDO.
I DON'T LOOK AT OPRAH OR WHATEVER.
LOOK AT THE PEOPLE IN THE AUDIENCE AND THEIR EYES.
SHE SAID THAT'S WHAT THE SURVIVAL WORKSHOPS SHOULD BE LIKE IN YOUR WORK.
SO THOSE WILL HAVE IMAGES OF THE MANY, MANY PEOPLE OF ANY AGE AND ECONOMIC CLASS AND THEY WILL HAVE THEIR MOMENTS ON THE SCREEN.
THE PERFORMANCE HAPPENS IN AND AROUND THE SCREENS WHICH KEEPS CHANGING.
THAT'S THE FIRST SECTION.
IT'S CALLED STILL.
THE SECOND SECTION SCORED BY THE GREAT VERNON REED, A BONA FIDE ROCK MUSICIAN.
HE SPLICED IT TOGETHER IN A VERY CLEVER, WITTY, SOMETIMES FUNNY, ULTIMATELY POIGNANT WAY SO YOU HEAR THE VOICES COMING OUGHT ACROSS THE FLOOD LIGHTS.
AND MY COMPANY IS BEAUTIFUL.
THEY ARE STILL -- WE DISTINGUISHED OURSELVES, YEARS AGO.
DIFFERENT BODY TYPES, DIFFERENT TRAININGS, DIFFERENT TEMPERAMENTS.
THEY'RE DANCING OFF IN ABSTRACTION BUT WHAT YOU HEAR IS VERY CONCRETE IN THE AIR.
THE TRICK FOR ME IN CONTEMPORARY DANCE HAS BEEN, WHAT YOU SEE AND WHAT YOU HEAR ARE GREATER THAN THE SUM OF THEIR PARTS.
>> WHAT STANDS OUT TO YOU ALL THESE YEARS LATER ABOUT HOW THE INITIAL AUDIENCES REACTED?
HOW DID THEY REACT?
YOU ARE, THE AUDIENCE CAME TO SEE A WORK THAT HAD NOT YET BEEN MEDIA-TIZED.
PEOPLE SHOT TO THEIR FEET AND THEY IMMEDIATELY WANT TO TALK ABOUT WHAT IT WAS AND THE ETHICS OF WHAT IT WAS AND COULD THEY SEE THEMSELVES IN IT, WHY WAS IT EXISTING.
BUT THE WORK IS VERY, IT'S A CHARMING WORK, ULTIMATELY.
IT WAS DESIGNED TO HAVE A POPULAR APPEAL.
>> I WANT TO READ A SOMETHING.
THIS WAS IN THE PROGRAM NOTES FROM 30 YEARS AGO.
YOU SAID, MAY INTENTION SINCE THE ONSET OF THIS PROJECT HAS BEEN TO CREATE A WORK NOT AS A ROOM NATION ON DEATH AND DECLINE BUT THE RESOURCEFULNESS AND COURAGE NECESSARY TO PERFORM THE ACT OF LIVING.
DO YOU FEEL YOU WERE SUCCESSFUL?
>> YES, I WAS.
AND I AM STILL SUCCESSFUL.
I BELIEVE THE TEST IS NOW, THE WORLD IS BESET BY SO MANY OTHER CONCERNS.
ARE YOU WORRIED ABOUT THE RISING SEA LEVELS?
ABOUT THE WAR IN GAZA?
THE WAR IN UKRAINE?
THERE'S WAR, WAR, WAR.
IT COMES WITH A THING CALLED ZOOM SCROLLING WHICH YOU PROBABLY KNOW VERY WELL.
THERE WAS NO SUCH THING AS DOOM SCROLLING AT THAT TIME.
PEOPLE WEREN'T SITTING AND LOOKING AT THE WORLD GO UP IN FLAMES.
THEY FELT THEY HAD SOME AGENCY AROUND THE, WHAT THEY WERE FEELING AND WHAT THEY WERE SEEING ON THE NEWS.
NOW I THINK PEOPLE FEEL LESS AGENCY.
ANGER.
>> DO YOU FEEL PEOPLE WHO HAD AIDS IN THE '80s AND '90s FELT THEY HAD AGENCY?
>> YOU MEAN LIKE WOMEN WITH BREAST CANCER?
PEOPLE WITH CYSTIC FIBROSIS?
>> THERE WASN'T THIS DOOM SCROLLING.
>> HOW DO PEOPLE -- >> I MEANT DID.
>> I MAY NOT EAN DO.
I INSIST THAT IT IS NOT LOOKING BACK.
IT IS TALKING ABOUT SOMETHING THAT IS IMPORTANT RIGHT NOW.
>> SO WHAT WE'RE GOING TO DO IS READ, HAVE YOU READ THE CURRENT PROGRAM NOTES.
OKAY?
>> OKAY.
I AM DIFFERENT AND HAVE EXPERIENCED SEVERAL TYPES OF SURVIVORSHIP OVER THE LAST 30 YEARS.
ONE OF THESE IS SURVIVING IN THE FACE OF THE RELENTLESS CONVERSATION THAT A WORK OF ART MUST ENDURE.
MORTALITY IS AN ASPECT OF THE HUMAN CONDITION THAT DOES NOT FOLLOW FASHIONS, NOR AESTHETIC CONVERSATIONS.
IT IS A POWERFUL FACT THAT WE CAN ONLY STAND OUR GROUND IN THE FACE OF, OR WE FALL DOWN AND ARE SWEPT AWAY.
>> DO YOU THINK THAT 30 YEARS LATER, GIVEN THE CONTEXT, THE PROGRESS OF SCIENCE, GIVEN MEDIA AND THERAPY AND PEOPLE BEING ABLE TO TALK MUCH MORE OPENLY NOW THAN THEY DID 30 YEARS AGO, THAT THERE IS A DIFFERENCE IN THE WAY PEOPLE, OR HAVE YOU OBSERVED A DIFFERENCE IN THE WAY EVERYBODY, WOMEN, MEN, WHOEVER IT IS, DEAL WITH THEIR MORTALITY THAN 30 YEARS AGO?
>> WELL, CONSIDERING I'M NOT A SOCIAL SCIENTIST, AND I WOULDN'T HAVE THE STATISTICS.
THAT'S ONE OF THE PROBLEMS.
>> YOUR FEELING.
>> I'M DEALING IN A BODY THAT'S AGED.
I'M DEALING IN A BODY THAT SURVIVED.
AND I AM ASKED TO BRING THIS WORK BACK IN THIS WONDERFUL HALL.
SO I'M FEELING PRETTY DAMN GOOD.
PEOPLE ARE FREIGHTENED.
CHILDREN HAVE A WAY TO FEAR THAT THEY SHOULD NOT HAVE.
THERE ARE PEOPLE IN THIS PIECE WHO WERE NOT BORN WHEN THE PIECE WAS MADE.
THEY SOMETIMES SAY TO ME IN DIFFERENT CONTEXTS, THEY SAY, IT'S JUST LIKE YOUR WORLD.
THEY SAY 30 YEARS AGO, YOU WEREN'T WORRIED ABOUT THE WORLD GOING UP IN FLAMES.
SO.
IN CASE, I FEEL FOR THEM.
I WOULD NOT WANT TO BE A 19, 20, 21-YEAR-OLD PERSON JUST STARTING OUT IN THE SEXUAL JOURNEY OF MY LIFE NOW.
>> WHAT DO YOU THINK IS DIFFERENT TODAY WITH THE FEAR THAT YOU POINT OUT WITH WAR AND CLIMATE CHANGE AND THE WORLD GOING UP IN FLAMES FOR THE AVERAGE 9, 20, 21 YEARS OLD, THAN FOR US IN THAT AGE WHEN THERE WAS A FATHER OF NUCLEAR WAR.
>> I'M NOT 19 YEARS OLD.
THEY TELL ME THAT THEY FEEL THAT THEIR FUTURE IS LESS CERTAIN THAN I FELT MY FUTURE WAS.
I HAD THIS BELIEF IN ART.
I THOUGHT THAT ART WAS PARTICIPATION IN THE WORLD OF IDEAS.
IT WAS LIKE RELIGION.
IF YOU WANT TO KNOW WHAT MAKES LIFE WORTH LIVING, GIVE YOURSELF TO AN AESTHETIC PURSUIT.
WHAT IS A POETIC PHRASE?
HOW CAN LANGUAGE BE USED?
AND AM I AN ANONYMOUS NUMBER?
OR AM I SOME ENTITY THAT HAS A PLACE?
I THINK ARTISTS IN THIS VERY EGO DRIVEN WORLD THAT WE LIVE IN CAN GIVE US A CHANCE OF ANSWERING THAT QUESTION.
I HAVE SOME UNIQUENESS THAT YET I'M PART OF WHAT BEYONCE SAYS POLITICS IS PLURALITY.
HOW DO WE LIVE TOGETHER?
THAT'S A BIG ONE FOR ME.
THAT'S WHAT IT IS STILL TRYING TO DO.
IT WANTS TO MAKE SOME COMMON EXPERIENCE.
THE COMMON EXPERIENCE IS WE LIVE, WE GROW.
SOME OF US WILL REPRODUCE.
AND WE WILL CERTAINLY DIE.
WE ALL KNEW THAT BUT WE HAVE TO BE REMINDED AGAIN AND AGAIN THAT THAT IS THE ARC.
NOW WHAT WILL WE DO WITH IT WHILE WE'RE HERE?
>> WHAT SHOULD WE DO WITH IT?
>> MAKE SOMETHING BEAUTIFUL.
HAVE HONEST CONVERSATION.
DON'T FALL BACK ON CLICHE.
AND BE BRAVE.
>> ARE YOU STILL ANGRY?
>> BY THE MINUTE, SOMETIMES YES, AND SOMETIMES NO.
MORE THAN ANYTHING, I'M VERY MUCH IN LOVE WITH MY HUSBAND.
AND I CAN SAY I HAVE A HUSBAND NOW.
I COULD NOT SAY IT AT THAT TIME.
I HAVE A LOVELY COMPANY.
OLD ENOUGH TO BE MY CHILDREN IN SOME REGARDS.
AND WE HAVE A LIVELY DISCUSSION.
I HAVE A LOT THAT MAKES ME HAPPY.
I HAVE A LOVELY HOUSE WHICH HAS A GARDEN AROUND IT.
I SLEEP IN THE VERY ROOM THAT MY COMPANION ARTIE DIED IN.
SO I DON'T HAVE THINGS HIDDEN.
THERE ARE NOT RESENTMENTS.
I HAVE A WAY OF GETTING THINGS OUT.
>> HE WAS PART OF THE CONTEXT OF WHEN YOU PERFORMED AND CREATED "STILL/HERE" FIRST.
THIS IS WHAT YOU SAID TO BILL, THE JOURNALIST.
YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT ESSENTIALLY A CRITICISM THAT WAS LEVELED AT YOU.
ONE CRITIC FROM THE NEW YORKER.
DIDN'T EVEN WANT TO SEE YOUR ORIGINAL PRODUCTION.
>> DIDN'T SEE IT.
>> DIDN'T WANT TO, DIDN'T SEE IT.
SAID IT WAS VICTIM ART AND AS SUCH IT WAS RUBBISH AND NOT WORTH SEEING.
>> SO WHAT THIS ARTICLE WRITTEN BY A CRITIC THAT I HAD GREAT RESPECT FOR BEFORE THIS, SHE SUDDENLY PULLS THE" HE FRIGHTENS ME" CARD.
AWARE TALKING ABOUT MODERN DANCE.
YOU'RE NOT OUT IN THE STREET CONFRONTING A BLACK N IN THE PARK.
THAT'S A DOG WHISTLE.
HOW DID WE GET THERE?
THAT'S WHAT THAT ARTICLE WAS.
IT WAS AN OBFUSCATION.
AND SHE SAID THINGS LIKE, THERE'S NO DANCING IN THE PIECE.
COME SEE THIS PIECE.
>> SHE HADN'T SEEN IT.
>> THIS IS HOW YOU DESCRIBE YOURSELF AFTERWARDS.
SHE SAID IT IS ODD, THAT HER CRITICISM WAS IDENTIFIED AS BLACK OR GAY OR BOTH OR WHATEVER.
>> THAT'S A CRITICISM.
STOP A MOMENT.
SHE -- >> SHE SAID THAT.
>> YES.
IT WAS SUCH A FOOLISH AND STUPID POSITION.
WHY ARE WE TALKING ABOUT HER NOW?
>> BECAUSE I WANT TO ASK BUT WHAT YOU SAID ABOUT IT.
YOU SAID TO BILL, HE HAPPENS TO TELL A WRITER ON THE WRONG DAY THAT HE'S HIV POSITIVE.
NOW HE'S NO LONGER BILL.
HE IS AN HIV POSITIVE BLACK MALE HOMOSEXUAL.
IS THAT STILL RELEVANT?
>> HE'S RELEVANT IF WE MAKE IT IN THIS INTERVIEW RELEVANT.
I'M NOT GOING TO ADDRESS THE QUESTION.
>> BECAUSE?
TIME HAS MOVED ON?
>> IT'S STUPID.
I'M THE REAL DEAL.
I HAVE SURVIVED.
I'M A MAJOR ARTIST AND DOING A WORK MUCH BIGGER THAN I AM.
FOR ME TO GO BACK TALKING ABOUT BEING THE VICTIM, RIGHT?
OF LIFE CIRCUMSTANCES IS NOT USEFUL IN THIS LITTLE TIME WE HAVE TOGETHER.
>> I'M GOING TO ASK YOU ONE MORE QUESTION ABOUT BEING A VICTIM.
BECAUSE, YOU MUST KNOW.
I SEE IT.
IT'S ALMOST, THERE IS A LOT OF VICTIM HOOD.
A LOT OF SNOW FLAKORY.
THERE IS A LOT OF, I AM THIS AND YOU CAN'T CALL ME THAT.
EVERYBODY IS GETTING CANCELED.
WE LIVE IN THAT ERA RIGHT NOW.
I WONDER HOW THAT AFFECTS YOU AND WHAT YOU THINK THAT THAT IS SO PROMINENT NOW.
SOMETHING THAT MADE YOU SO ANGRY 30 YEARS AGO.
DOES LIFE CHANGE?
>> I FEEL LIKE YOU'RE TRYING TO PUT ME IN A CORNER.
>> NO, I'M NOT.
>> LET ME THINK ABOUT IT FOR A MOMENT IF IN THE WORLD OF TELEVISION I'M ALLOWED TO THINK.
>> WE'RE A THINKING PROGRAM.
>> WE'RE TALKING MORE THAN WE'RE THINKING.
THE FACT IS THAT I HAVE TO FIND A WAY TO, I AM ALSO AN AGING PERSON IN A YOUNG PERSON'S FIELD.
>> LIKE MYSELF.
>> ISN'T IT WONDERFUL?
AND YOU LOOK FABULOUS.
>> THANK YOU.
SO DO YOU.
>> THANK YOU, THANK YOU.
I HAVE HAD TO FIND WAYS TO SPEAK TO MAY YOUNG DANCERS IN SUCH A WAY THAT THEY CAN SEE ME AS A WHOLE PERSON.
PEOPLE HAVE THREATENED TO CANCEL ME.
THIS IS THE PERSON YOU'RE READING ABOUT WHO IS SUCH A RADICAL.
PEOPLE HAVE SAID IT'S OPPRESSIVE TO BE IN YOUR WORK BECAUSE OF GENDER.
GENDER?
WHEN THIS PIECE WAS MADE, PEOPLE WERE NOT DOING PRONORTH KOREANS.
THERE IS A SECTION CALLED SLASH, POISON OR BURN.
IT'S EXTREMELY GENDERED.
IT'S ABOUT WOMEN AND THEIR BREASTS.
THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO SAY I AM NOT A MAN OR A WOMAN.
HOW DO THEY SEE THEMSELVES?
I THINK THAT'S HUMBLING AND I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT THAT I AND WE AND MY GENERATION WATCHING THIS INTERVIEW HAVE TO REALIZE, WE HAVE TO KNOW HOW THE LISTEN.
BUT NOW I HAVE TO REALIZE, YOU ARE IN A POSITION TO HAVE AUTHORITY.
WHAT ARE YOUR VALUES IN THE STUDIO?
WHAT ARE YOUR VALUES IN ART?
HOW DO YOU TREAT WOMEN?
HOW DO YOU TREAT TRANS PEOPLE?
HOW DO YOU THINK ABOUT YOUR OWN DEFINITION AS BEING A GAY PERSON?
HAVE YOU INTERNALIZED LOATHING, ALL THESE THINGS ARE, THAT'S WHY MY DUKES ARE UP.
MOHAMMED ALI SAID, I'M THE BUTTERFLY.
>> FLOAT LIKE A BUTTERFLY, STING LIKE A BEE.
>> EXCEPT BE CAREFUL HAD A YOU STING.
YOU'LL GET CANCELED.
NO.
I DON'T CARE ABOUT THAT.
I'M BEING TOO CLEVER.
THE IDEA IS TO BE AN ARTIST THESE DAYS.
YOU HAVE TO BE SMART.
AND YOU HAVE TO BE CONVERSANT IN ALL SORTS OF DIFFERENT LANGUAGES.
AND DON'T EXPECT ANY ENTITLEMENT.
>> ARE YOU PLANNING TO STING WITH THIS, STILL?
>> I DON'T KNOW.
I'VE LEARNED IN YOUR LONG CAREER, DO NOT PLAN.
THE AUDIENCE IS A MULTIHEADED THING.
THERE ARE THOUSANDS OF HEADS AND YOU DON'T KNOW WHO IS WATCHING.
YOU DON'T KNOW WHOSE CHILDREN WILL BE TOLD ABOUT THIS.
SO HAVE SOME HUMILITY AND HAVE A LOT OF COURAGE.
AND BILL, IF YOU CAN, HAVE SOME FUN.
>> I THINK WE'VE HAD SOME FUN.
>> YOU ARE SOMETHING.
THANK YOU SO MUCH.
>> THANK YOU.
>>> WITH JUST OVER ONE WEEK TO GO TO THE U.S. ELECTION OVER THE WEEKEND, DONALD TRUMP DELIVERED ONE OF THE MOST EXTREME, ANGRY, FULL OF RACIST COMMENTS CLOSING ARGUMENTS IN MODERN PRESIDENTIAL HISTORY CALLING ILLEGAL MIGRANTS VICIOUS AND BLOOD THIRSTY CRIMINALS.
IF ELECTED, WOULD LAUNCH THE LARGEST DEPORTATION PROGRAM IN AMERICAN HISTORY ON DAY ONE.
HOW MUCH WOULD IT COST?
THE AMERICAN IMMIGRATION COUNCIL HAS BEEN CRUNCHING THE NUMBERS.
SENIOR FELLOW AARON REICHLIN-MELNICK JOINED HARI SREENIVASAN TO DISCUSS IT.
>> YOUR ORGANIZATION, THE AMERICAN IMMIGRATION COUNCIL, HAD PUT OUT A FASCINATING REPORT.
IT IS TITLED MASS DEPORT ATION.
YOU WENT THROUGH THIS THEORETICAL EXERCISE ALMOST AND REALLY JUST LOOKED VERY SPECIFICALLY AT WHAT SORT OF COST IT WOULD BE IF WE WERE TO BE ABLE TO DO SOMETHING LIKE THIS.
SO WHY WRITE THIS NOW?
>> WELL, RIGHT NOW WE ARE AT A TIME WHEN MASS DEPORTATION HAS BECOME A POPULAR WILL TOPIC FOR POLITICIANS AND POLICY MAKERS TO PROPOSE.
GIVEN THAT ISSUE, IT IS IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND, WHAT DOES IT MEAN?
IT IS NOT JUST A THEIRETT CAL AMOVOUS IDEA.
WE'RE TALKING ABOUT A U.S. LAW ENFORCEMENT OPERATION DESIGNED TO ROUND UP OVER 13 MILLION PEOPLE OVER A PERIOD OF TIME AND TO DEPORT THEM OUTSIDE OF THE UNITED STATES.
AND THAT IS A HUGE OPERATION WHICH WOULD HAVE DRAMATIC CONSEQUENCES WITH THE UNITED STATES, ITS ECONOMY AND ITS PEOPLE.
>> HAVE WE EVER DONE ANYTHING LIKE THAT?
HAVE WE EVER MOVED THAT MANY PEOPLE?
THIS IS NOW HALF THE POPULATION OF NORTH CAROLINA.
>> THE PREVIOUS OPERATION CARRIED OUT UNDER PRESIDENT EISENHOWER WAS FOCUSED MOSTLY ON MEXICANS AND UNFORTUNATELY, SOME MEXICAN AMERICANS WHO WERE AT THE TIME LIVING AROUND THE U.S.-MEXICO BORDER.
MANY OF WHOM WERE MIGRANT FARM WORKERS.
TODAY THE UNDOCUMENTED POPULATION LIVES IN EVERY STATE AND MOST COMMUNITIES AND REPRESENTS A WIDE ANDINCREASING LY DIVERSE NATIONALITY.
>> IF WE WERE ABLE TO CARRY OUT SOME SORT OF MASS DEPORTATION, YOU PUT THE TAG AT $315 BILLION.
HOW DID YOU COME TO THAT NUMBER?
>> THAT NUMBER WAS CALCULATED IN THE MOST CONSERVATIVE WAY POSSIBLE BECAUSE IT IS THE ESTIMATE JUST OF THE THEORETICAL COSTS OF A SINGLE ONE-TIME MASS DEPORTATION OPERATION, PRESUMING NO COST CHANGE CURRENTLY.
WE LOOKED AT FOUR INDIVIDUAL COSTS.
THE COSTS OF ARRESTING PEOPLE, THE COSTS OF DETAINING THEM, THE COSTS OF PROCESSING THEM FOR REMOVAL AND THE COST OF ACTUALLY CARRY IT OUT.
WE CALCULATED AN AVERAGE COST USING TODAY'S PRICES AND MULTIIFIED IT BY THE AFFECTED POPULATION.
THAT DOESN'T TAKE INTO ACCOUNT ALL THE ADDITIONAL COSTS THAT WOULD BE NEEDED TO CARRY OUT THIS STAGGERINGLY LARGE OPERATION WHICH IS WHY WE DEVELOPED AN ESTIMATE FOR WHAT IT WOULD TAKE TO DE PORT 1 MILLION PEOPLE A YEAR.
>> LET'S BREAK THAT DOWN.
89.3 BILLION ON ARRESTS.
WHO WOULD BE ABLE TO CARRY OUT ALL THESE ARRESTS?
WHAT AGENCIES WOULD BE NECESSARY?
DO WE PHYSICALLY HAVE THE MANPOWER, SO TO SPEAK, TAD IT?
>> RIGHT NOW, I.C.E.
DOES NOT HAVE THAT MANPOWER.
THE AGENCY HAS SEVERAL INTERNAL DIVISIONS THAT CARRY OUT ARRESTS OF PEOPLE.
IT IS NOPE AS THE CRIMINAL APPREHENSION PROGRAM AND THE FUNERAL FUGITIVE APPREHENSION PROGRAM.
IT IS THE DEPARTMENT INSIDE I.C.E.
THAT GOES OUT.
THOSE IN THE PROGRAM ARE MOSTLY GOING TO STATE AND LOCAL JAILS AND PICKING UP PEOPLE ALREADY IN CUSTODY.
AS YOU CAN IMAGINE, THAT'S MUCH EASIER.
IF SOMEBODY IS ALREADY IN JAIL, THE FEDERAL OFFICER HAS TO SHOW UP AND HAVE CUSTODY TRANSFERRED.
IF PEOPLE ARE OUT IN THE COMMUNITY WHO NEED TO GO OUT AND DO AN ARREST AND THAT IS MUCH MORE EXPENSIVE.
IN THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, WE CALCULATED AND LOOKED AT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, THE ERA WHICH WE HAD THE BEST DATA FOR.
THAT WAS 2016 TO 2020.
DURING THAT PERIOD, THE AVERAGE I.C.E.
ARRESTS WERE LESS THAN 30,000.
SO RIGHT NOW, THE FUGITIVE PROGRAM IS REALLY ONLY GOING AFTER TENS OF THOUSANDS A YEAR BUT NOT THAT MANY OVERALL CONSIDERING THERE ARE OVER 13 MILLION POTENTIALLY REMOVABLE.
SO THE U.S.
DOES NOT HAVE THAT MANPOWER.
AND WOULD HAVE TO EITHER HIRE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS IN THE SHORT TERM OR 31,000 A YEAR.
IF THEY COULDN'T HIRE THOSE PEOPLE, THEY WOULD HAVE TO PULL THEM FROM OTHER LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES WHICH MEANS YOU WOULD HAVE THE PEOPLE INVESTIGATING CHILD PORNOGRAPHY SUDDENLY TAKING OFF TO GO AFTER SOME GRANDMA WHO HAS BEEN HERE FOR DECADES.
>> GOT IT.
SO YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THE DETAINMENT COSTS.
AND FOR THAT, YOU ESTIMATE $167 BILLION.
WHERE WOULD THAT TAKE PLACE?
WHETHER IT IS A MILLION PEOPLE A YEAR OR 13 MILLION ALL AT ONCE?
>> FOR THIS 13 MILLION ALL AT ONCE ESTIMATE, THAT IS MASSIVELY CONSERVATIVE.
THAT'S THE COST ESTIMATE PRESUMING THERE WOULD BE NO ADDITIONAL COSTS INCURRED BY DETENTION.
IN OTHER WORDS, THE CURRENT COST PER PERSON FOR DETENTION WOULD NOT GO UP.
BUT WE KNOW IT WOULD.
BECAUSE IF YOU LOOK AT OTHER SHORT-TERM DETENTION FACILITIES THAT THE U.S. GOVERNMENT HAS THROWN UP AT THE BORDER, THEY'RE CALLED SOFT-SIDED FACILITIES USED FOR MIGRANTS, THEY ARE MUCH MORE EXPENSIVE THAN THE FACILITIES USED BY I.C.E.
TO DETAIN PEOPLE WHICH ARE USUALLY JAILS AND PRISONS WHICH HAVE BEEN CONSTRUCTED YEARS AGO OR DECADES AGO.
MANY ARE CONVERTED FEDERAL PRISONS OWNED BY PRIVATE PRISON CONTRACTORS.
AND SO THOSE COSTS ARE LOWER THAN BUILDING NEW FACILITIES.
AND RIGHT NOW, IF YOU LOOK AT OFFICIAL BUREAU STATISTICS FROM THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, IT SHOWS AS OF THE END OF 2022, THERE WERE 1.9 MILLION PEOPLE DETAINED IN JAILS AND PRISONS AROUND THE COUNTRY.
THAT'S FEDERAL, STATE, AND LOCAL PRISONS.
IF YOU WANTED TO DETAIN 13 MILLION PEOPLE, THAT MEANS YOU WOULD HAVE TO INCREASE THE NATIONAL JAIL CAPACITY BY MORE THAN SIX TIMES.
AND EVEN IF YOU WANTED TO DETAIN A MILLION PEOPLE A YEAR IN I.C.E.
DETENTION, YOU WOULD HAVE TO INCREASE TOTAL CAPACITY OF ALL JAILS AND PRISONS IN THE UNITED STATES BY MORE THAN 50%.
YOU CANNOT DO THAT EASILY, AND YOU CERTAINLY CAN'T DO THAT CHEAPLY.
WE'RE LOOKING AT THESE SOFT-SIDED DETENTION FACILITIES AT THE BORDER COST MORE THAN HALF A BILLION DOLLARS PER 5,000 DETENTION BEDS.
>> WOW!
THE ACTUAL REMOVAL COSTS YOU ESTIMATE AT $24 BILLION.
>> THIS IS BECAUSE THE I.C.E.
SYSTEM IS RUN BY CONTRACT CHARTER FLIGHT SERVICES.
THE COSTS TO OPERATE THOSE FLIGHTS ARE VERY HEY.
AT A CONGRESSIONAL HEARING IN 2023, ACTING I.C.E.
DIRECTOR JOHNSON TESTIFIED THAT THE AVERAGE COST PER FLIGHT HOUR WAS AROUND $17,000 PER FLIGHT HOUR.
>> WE HAVE TALKED ABOUT THE COSTS OF IMPLEMENTATION OF SOME MASS DEPORTATION.
WHAT ARE THE ECONOMIC COSTS IF WE WERE TO THEORETICALLY TAKE 13 MILLION PEOPLE OUT OF THE EXISTING U.S. ECONOMY AND THE ROLES THAT THEY PERFORM TODAY?
>> ESTIMATES ARE THAT UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS ARE ANYWHERE FROM 4% TO 5% OF THE U.S. WORK FORCEFUL SO IF YOU CARRY OUT MASS DEPORTATIONS, YOU ARE SHRINKING THE U.S. LABOR FORCE SIGNIFICANTLY.
AND THAT IS GOING TO AFFECT THE OVERALL ECONOMY.
IT'S NOT THE CASE THAT IMMIGRATION IS A ZERO SUM GAME.
IF ONE IMMIGRANT COMES HERE, THAT'S ONE AMERICAN WHO DOESN'T GET A JOB.
THAT'S BECAUSE IMMIGRANTS HELP CREATE JOBS.
NOT ONLY THROUGH CONSUMER DEMAND BUT THEY OFTEN START BUSINESSES OR HELP ENSURE THAT AMERICAN BUSINESSES CAN STAY ACTIVE AND KEEP HIRING OTHERS.
SO WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE MASS DEPORTATION OPERATION OF THIS POPULATION, WE ESTIMATE THAT A MASS DEPORTATION WOULD LEAD TOW A DROP IN U.S.
GROSS DOMESTIC PRODUCT ANYWHERE FROM 4.2% TO 6.8%.
AND I KNOW THAT SOUNDS THEORETICAL.
THAT IS LARGER THAN THE GREAT RECESSION.
AT THE HEIGHT OF THE GREAT RECESSION, THERE WERE 15 MILLION AMERICANS OUT OF WORK.
>> SO ONE OF THE FRAMINGS THAT HAS BEEN VERY SUCCESSFUL FOR FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP AND HIS CAMPAIGN SPEECHES AND RALLIES IS THAT THIS IS A ZERO SUM GAIN.
THAT AMERICANS WILL BE GIVEN OPPORTUNITIES TO GET THE JOBS BACK THAT THE ILLEGAL WORKERS ARE TAKING.
WHAT'S WRONG WITH THAT THINKING?
>> YEAH, I MEAN, PART OF THAT IS WRONG BECAUSE THERE ARE, THERE IS A LABOR SHORTAGE AND THERE SIMPLY AREN'T ENOUGH AMERICANS TO TAKE THESE JOBS.
IF YOU CUT ALL OF THESE PEOPLE OUT OF THE POPULATION, THERE WILL BE CERTAIN JOBS THAT JUST WILL GO UNFILLED.
AND AS THOSE JOBS GO UNFILLED, THE FIRMS THAT ARE TRYING TO HAIR THERE, THE COMPANIES, THE BUSINESSES, MANY OF THEM SMALL BUSINESSES, THEY WON'T RAISE THEIR PRICES OR ADJUST THEIR PRICES AND STAY IN BUSINESS.
THEY'LL JUST GO OUT OF BUSINESS.
IF THEY HAVE AMERICANS WORKING THERE AS WELL, WHICH YOU WILL FIND IS VERY COMMON, THEY WILL LOSE THEIR JOB, TOO.
ONE RECENT STUDY FOUND THAT FOR EVERY 500,000 UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS DEPORTED, 44,000 AMERICANS LOSE THEIR JOBS.
BUT BEYOND THAT, YOU'RE ALSO LOOKING AT THE FACT UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS WORK IN A LOT OF THE FIELD THAT'S HELP AMERICA THRIVE.
ONE IN SEVEN PEOPLE WORK IN THE ENTIRE CONSTRUCTION INDUSTRY.
EVERYTHING FROM DAY LABORERS ALL THE WAY TO THE CEO'S IS UNDOCUMENTED.
ONE IN THREE ROOFERS, DRYWALL INSTALLERS, STUCCO MASONS AND CEILING TIMERS, THEY ARE ALSO UNDOCUMENTED.
IF YOU THINK IT IS HARD TO GET A CONTRACTOR NOW, IMAGINE IF A THIRD OF THE PEOPLE DOING THOSE JOBS WEREN'T HERE.
THE PRICES WOULD GO UP AND FEWER PEOPLE WOULD BE ABLE TO ACCESS THOSE SERVICES.
YOU WOULDN'T SUDDENLY SEE A HUGE INCREASE IN AMERICANS TAKING THOSE JOBS.
THERE MIGHT BE SOME SUBSTITUTION BUT IT WOULD NOT BE 100%.
IF IT WERE 100%, THAT COULD TAKE DECADES AND THERE WOULD BE SIGNIFICANT ECONOMIC DOWNSIDES IN THE INTERIM.
>> LET'S WALK THROUGH A LITTLE OF VICE PRESIDENT HARRIS'S IMMIGRATION POLICY AS SHE'S LAID IT OUT.
DOES IT FIRST OF ALL DIFFER SIGNIFICANTLY FROM PRESIDENT BIDEN'S?
>> WELL, IT IS CERTAINLY DIFFERENT FROM PRESIDENT BIDEN'S CAMPAIGN POLICY PROMISES BACK IF 2020.
BUT FROM WHAT HAS BEEN PUT OUT SO FAR, IT DOES BE DIFFER SIGNIFICANTLY FROM THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION'S CURRENT APPROACH.
AND THAT APPROACH THAT HAS BEEN DEVELOPED REALLY SIGNIFICANTLY OVER THE LAST TWO YEARS IS BASICALLY WHAT I'VE CALLED THE CARROT AND STICK APPROACH.
THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION IS OFFERING MIGRANTS ALTERNATE LEGAL PATH WAYS TO ENTERING THE UNITED STATES.
EITHER THROUGH PAROLE PROGRAMS THAT PEOPLE INSIDE THE UNITED STATES CAN APPLY TO SPONSOR PEOPLE TO COME HERE, OR THROUGH THE CBP 1 APP, A MEANS THAT PEOPLE CAN GET IN LINE TO GO THROUGH A PORT OF ENTRY ALONG THE SOUTHERN BORDER.
AND THOSE WHO DON'T USE THOSE TOOLS ARE BEING INCREASINGLY TARGETED FOR DEPORTATION BY THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION.
WE'VE SEEN THE HARRIS ADMINISTRATION LARGELY ADOPT THIS, AT LEAST WHEN IT COMES TO THE BORDER.
INSIDE THE UNITED STATES, THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION IS HEAVILY PRO-IMMIGRANT.
THERE ARE NO MASS RAIDS LIKE WE SAW UNDER THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION AND THERE'S NO SIGN I'VE SEEN THAT THE HARRIS CAMPAIGN IS SUGGESTING IT WOULD START THOSE KINDS OF MASS ENFORCEMENT OPERATIONS AGAIN.
>> SO IS THE POLICY WORKING?
WE HAD A RECORD NUMBER OF BORDER CROSSINGS IN 2023, RIGHT?
>> WELL, WE HAD A RECORD NUMBER OF APPREHENSIONS.
WASN'T NECESSARILY A RECORD NUMBER OF CROSSINGS.
THAT'S BECAUSE ABOUT 20 YEARS AGO, THE STATISTICS ON APPREHENSIONS WERE MUCH LOWER BECAUSE MOST PEOPLE WHO CROSSED THE BORDER WERE BEING CAUGHT.
TODAY IT IS BLANKETED IN SURVEILLANCE CAMERAS.
WE HAVE TENS OF THOUSANDS MORE AGENTS THAN BACK THEN.
SO APPREHENSIONS HIT A RECORD WHILE CROSSINGS ARGUABLY DIDN'T.
BUT SETTING THAT ASIDE, THE NUMBERS ARE DOWN.
THE NUMBERS HAVE BEEN DOWN SIGNIFICANTLY DUE TO TWO THINGS.
DUE TO THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION REACHING A DEAL WITH MEXICO IN LATE DECEMBER OF LAST YEAR, AND MEXICO HAS NOW EMBARKED ON ITS HARSHEST AND RECORD-SETTING ENFORCEMENT OPERATION.
THE HARSHEST IN AMERICAN HISTORY AND THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION IN JUNE BEGAN TURNING AWAY ASYLUM SEEKERS TO CROSSED THE BORDER BY CHANGING THE PROCESS AND RAISING THE STANDARD FOR PEOPLE SEEKING PROTECTION.
SO RIGHT NOW, SEPTEMBER WAS THE LOWEST BORDER APPREHENSIONS OF BIDEN'S TIME IN OFFICE.
AND INDEED, WAS ABOUT THE LEVEL OF SUMMER 2020 BEFORE TRUMP LEFT OFFICE.
>> CANDIDATE HARRIS ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL CONSTANTLY REFERS TO THE FAILURE OF THE IMMIGRATION REFORM LEGISLATION THAT SHE SAYS FAILED IN PART BECAUSE PRESIDENT TRUMP GOT ON THE PHONE AND TOLD REPUBLICANS NOT TO VOTE FOR IT.
NOW, THAT BILL, IF IT HAD GONE THROUGH, WHAT LIKELY CHANGES WOULD WE BE SEEING BY TODAY?
>> I THINK THE SITUATION AT LEAST WHEN IT COMES TO THE SOUTHERN BORDER, WOULD LOOK SOMEWHAT SIMILAR.
AND THAT'S BECAUSE THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION'S JUNE POLICIES ADOPTED SOME PARTS OF THAT BILL.
HOWEVER, THE BILL ITSELF WAS NOT, IT WAS IMPERFECT.
IT HAD CREATED THIS BORDER EMERGENCY AUTHORITY THAT WAS MANDATORY EXCEPT AT THE TIMES WHEN IT WAS VOLUNTEER AND IT WAS AT TIMES VOLUNTARY.
IT WAS NOT GREAT EFFECTIVE SENSIBLE POLICY.
IN THAT SENSE IT CAME WELL RESOURCES.
THAT'S THE THING THE SYSTEM NEEDS MORE THAN EVER.
IT WOULD HAVE LED TO THE HIRING OF THOUSANDS OF NEW ASYLUM OFFICERS, HUNDREDS OF NEW IMMIGRATION JUDGES, AND MORE AGENTS, MORE OFFICERS, MORE RESOURCES.
WHICH AS I'VE LONG ARGUED IS THE BIG ISSUE RIGHT NOW.
WE HAVE AN UNDERRESOURCED ASYLUM SYSTEM THAT HAS BEEN STRAINING UNDER ITS WEIGHT FOR YEARS NOW.
CONGRESS KEEPS DRIBBLING DOLLARS AND CENTS INTO IT.
FOR THE FIRST TIME, THIS BILL WOULD HAVE GIVEN THE ADJUDICATION SYSTEM A HUGE BURST OF FUNDING.
>> IS THERE KIND OF A PATHWAY HERE FOR ANY SORT OF STRUCTURAL REFORM TO IMMIGRATION?
IN 2024, DO YOU SEE A PATH TO NAVIGATE?
>> WELL, A COUPLE OF PATHS.
ONE IS YOU THIS EDUCATION.
A REALLY FASCINATING POLL CAME OUT, IT MEANS ROUNDING PEOPLE UP AND PUTTING THEM IN CAMPS.
IT MEANS SPENDING HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS OF DOLLARS AND THEN YOU COMPARE IT TO A PATH FOR LEGAL STATUS FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN HERE FOR YEARS, THEY PAY BACK TAXES AND PAY A FINE, THEY OVERWHELMINGLY PREFER A PATH TO LEGAL STATUS OVER MASS DEPORT AFLGS STEP TWO IS TO GET CONGRESS TO ACT.
THE PROBLEM IS THIS IS A, THIS HAS BEEN AN ISSUE FOR DECADES.
THE LAST TIME CONGRESS MADE ANY MAJOR CHANGES TO OUR LEGAL IMMIGRATION SYSTEM WAS IN NOVEMBER OF 1990.
ONE MONTH BEFORE THE WORLDWIDE WEB WENT ONLINE.
THE LAST TIME WE MADE ANY CHANGES TO OUR IMMIGRATION ENFORCEMENT AND ASYLUM SYSTEM WAS IN 1996.
AND THE HEIGHT OF THE MACARENA CRAZE.
WE ARE USING THESE 20th CENTURY RELICS TO RUN OUR IMMIGRATION AND ASYLUM SYSTEM AND WE HAVEN'T CHANGED THAT STRUCTURE.
THERE ARE MORE POINTS ON WHICH POLITICIANS AND THE PUBLIC AGREE ON IMMIGRATION THAN THERE ARE POINTS THAT WE DISAGREE.
AND WE HAVE TO KEEP FOCUSED ON THOSE AND MAKING THE CHANGES THAT WE NEED WHILE ACKNOWLEDGING CHANGES HAVE TO BE MADE ON BOTH SIDES.
UNTIL WE CAN HAVE THAT ADULT CONVERSATION, I'M WORRIED WE WON'T SEE PROGRESS IN WASHINGTON.
>> THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.
>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.
AND THAT'S OUR PROGRAM FOR TONIGHT.
IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT IS COMING UP EVERY NIGHT, YOU CAN SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER.
THANKS FOR WATCHING.
GOOD NIGHT.
>>> "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.
JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WEIR.
THE SYLVIA A.
AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM.
THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.
MARK J. BLECHNER.
THE FILOMEN D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION.
SETON J. MELVIN.
THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND.
CHARLES ROSENBLUM.
KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN.
COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.
BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, AND JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS.
AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.
THANK YOU.