October 30, 2023

>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP -- >>> DESPERATION IN GAZA UNDER FIERCE ISRAELI BOMBARDMENT.

WE HEAR FROM A TOP RED CROSS OFFICIAL THERE.

FORMER ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER EHUD OLMERT JOINS ME ON WHAT NETANYAHU WANTS, WILL BE A LONG WAR.

PLUS, ISRAELI JOURNALIST AND HISTORIAN GORE SHOP GORENBERG.

ALSO AHEAD -- >>> STANDING MY GROUP.

MICHEL MARTIN SPEAKS TO CAPITOL HILL POLICEMAN HARRY DUNN, SEEKING ACCOUNTABILITY FOR JANUARY 6th.

>>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

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>>> ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS BY THESE FUNDERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

IN GAZA, GROWING HUNGER, DESPERATION, AND COLLAPSING CIVIL ORDER, WARNS THE UNITED NATIONS THERE.

ISRAEL'S ATTACKS CONTINUE FROM AIR AND LAND, INCLUDING NEAR THE AL QUDS HOSPITAL.

THE PALESTINIAN HEALTH MINISTRY IN RAMALLAH SAY MORE THAN 8,000 PEOPLE HAVE BEEN KILLED.

PRESIDENT BIDEN IS PRESSING PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU TO PROTECT CIVILIANS, AND ALLOW MORE AID IN AND QUICKLY.

THE EYES OF THE WORLD ARE ON THIS CONFLICT, WITH A WAVE OF GLOBAL PROTESTS AGAINST ISRAEL'S OFFENSIVE AND THE PLIGHT OF PALESTINIANS.

AND THERE HAVE BEEN CHILLING INSTANCES OF ANTI-SEMITISM, INCLUDING THIS ANGRY MOB THAT STORMED AN AIRPORT IN RUSSIA'S DAGESTAN REGION, AFTER A FLIGHT HAD LANDED FROM TEL AVIV.

SINCE THE OCTOBER 7th ATTACKS BY HAMAS THAT KILLED AT LEAST 1,400 PEOPLE IN ISRAEL, THE IDF HAS VOWED TO CRUSH HAMAS.

SALMA ABDELAZIZ LOOKS AT THE CIVILIANS CAUGHT IN THE CROSSFIRE.

AND A WARNING, THE IMAGES IN THIS REPORT ARE DIFFICULT TO WATCH.

>> Reporter: THIS IS WHAT THE SO-CALLED SECOND STAGE OF WAR LOOKS LIKE.

PANIC AND SUFFOCATION INSIDE NORTHERN GAZA'S AL QUDS HOSPITAL.

AIR STRIKES NEARBY, AFTER THE IDF TOLD PEOPLE HERE TO FLEA SOUTH.

>> WE HAVE OVER 400 PATIENTS WHO ARE INSIDE THE HOSPITAL, MANY OF THEM ARE IN THE INTENSIVE CARE UNIT.

EVACUATING THEM MEANS KILLING THEM.

>> Reporter: THE EVACUATION ORDER CALLED IMPOSSIBLE BY THE WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION AND THE U.N., BOTH STRESSED HOSPITALS AND CIVILIANS MUST BE PROTECTED.

INCLUDING SOME 12,000 DISPLACED PEOPLE SHELTERING INSIDAL KOOU HOSPITAL.

>> Translator: TELL US WHERE IT IS SAFE.

IT IS NO SAFE ANYWHERE.

>> Reporter: NEAR CONSTANT AIR STRIKES NOW POUND THE ENCLAVE, WHILE EARLY TROOPS EXPAND THEIR GROUND OPERATIONS.

THE IDF INSISTS ITIS ERADICATING HAS HAS.

BUT ON THE GROUND, UTTER DEVASTATION IS THE CONSEQUENCE.

THERE ARE 2 MILLION PEOPLE, HALF OF THEM CHILDREN, TRAPPED HERE UNDER BOMBARDMENT AND UNDER SIEGE.

>> Translator: THIS IS REVENGE, A COWARDLY, RACIST CAMPAIGN.

WE IN THIS AREA, WE ARE ONE FAMILY, WE ARE KIND PEOPLE.

INSTEAD OF WAKING UP TO THE SOUND OF THE CALL TO PRAYER, WE WOKE UP TO AN AIR STRIKE.

>> Reporter: THE ANGUISH AND HORROR INSIDE GAZA SPARKING MASS DEMONSTRATIONS, FROM NEW YORK CITY TO LONDON, TO ROME, AND CALLS FOR A CEASE-FIRE ARE GROWING LOUDER.

U.N. MEMBERS OVERWHELMINGLY VOTED FOR AN IMMEDIATE AND SUSTAINED TRUCE LAST WEEK.

BUT EVEN AS PALESTINIAN FAMILIES BURY THEIR YOUNGEST, MORE THAN 3,000 CHILDREN KILLED IN THREE WEEKS, SAVE THE CHILDREN SAID, CITING GAZA'S HAMAS-CONTROLLED HEALTH AUTHORITIES, AMPLIFYING THE GLOBAL OUTCRY, PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU VOWS, THIS IS ONLY THE BEGINNING.

INTERNATIONAL AID OFFICIALS THAT, IN FACT, SUCH A HUGE PROPORTION OF THOSE DEAD ARE CHILDREN IN GAZA.

AND LATER IN THIS PROGRAM, WE'RE GOING TO HEARING FROM THE ICRC, THE INTERNATIONAL RED CROSS STATION HELD, WHO IS IN SOUTHERN GAZA, AND WHO CONFIRMS THAT NOWHERE IN THAT STRIP IS SAFE RIGHT NOW.

NETANYAHU IS INCREASINGLY UNDER PRESSURE FROM ISRAELIS TO TAKE HIS SHARE OF THE RESPONSIBILITY.

OVER THE WEEKEND, HE WAS FORCED TO APOLOGIZE AND DELETE A TWEET CRITICIZING ISRAEL'S SECURITY SERVICES.

NETANYAHU SAID EVERYONE WILL HAVE TO ANSWER FOR FAILURES, INCLUDING ME.

JOINING ME NOW FOR MORE ON THIS IS THE ISRAELI JOURNALIST AND HISTORIAN GERSHOM GORENBERG.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

CAN I JUST START FROM THERE, IN THE MIDDLE OF A WAR, A PRIME MINISTER USUALLY HAS THE BACKING OF THE PEOPLE, PEOPLE USUALLY RALLY AROUND THE PRIME MINISTER, THE PRESIDENT, WHOEVER IT IS.

BUT THIS SEEMS TO BE DIFFERENT.

TELL US, FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE, AS ON THE GROUND THERE, OBSERVING, HOW MUCH ANGER IS FOCUSED ON HIM RIGHT NOW?

>> I THINK THAT THE SIGNS ARE THAT DISSATISFACTION WITH NETANYAHU IS QUITE WIDESPREAD.

80% OF THE PUBLIC EXPECTS HIM TO TAKE PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.

GETTING 80% OF ISRAELIS TO AGREE ON ANYTHING IS JUST SHORT OF A BIBLICAL MIRACLE.

THE ANGER AT HIS TWEET WHERE HE TRIED TO TRANSFER BLAME TO THE SECURITY SERVICES, ESSENTIALLY SAYING THE BUCK STOPS ANYWHERE BUT ME, WAS TREMENDOUS, AND FORCED HIM INTO AN EXTREMELY UNUSUAL RETREAT.

AT THE PRESS CONFERENCE A COUPLE OF NIGHTS AGO, HE WAS PRESSED REPEATEDLY ON TAKING RESPONSIBILITY, AND HE REFUSED TO DO SO.

THERE IS CONSTANT TALK ABOUT THE FACT THAT HE HAS NOT VISITED MOURNING FAMILIES, THAT HE HAS NOT GONE TO FUNERALS, THAT HE HAS NOT VISITED THE OPERATIONS CENTERS SET UP OVERNIGHT BY THE VERY PROTEST ORGANIZATIONS WHICH WERE MARCHING AGAINST HIM UP UNTIL THE BEGINNING OF THE WAR AND ARE NOW, ESSENTIALLY, TIMING THE ROLE OF THE GOVERNMENT IN PROVIDING AID TO CITIZENS, SO, THERE IS -- THERE IS A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF DISSATISFACTION WITH NETANYAHU.

>> CAN I JUST READ THIS TWEET, BECAUSE IT'S CAUSED A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF DISSATISFACTION.

NETANYAHU TWEETING, AT NO POINT, WAS A WARNING GIVEN TO PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU ON HAMAS' INTENTION TO START A WAR.

ON THE CONTRARY, ALL THE DEFENSE OFFICIALS, INCLUDING THE HEADS OF THE INTELLIGENCE ASSESSED THAT HAMAS WAS DETERRED.

THEN, HE APOLOGIZED.

ANOTHER TWEET.

I WAS WRONG.

THINGS I SAID FOLLOWING THE PRESS CONFERENCE SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN SAID AND I APOLOGIZE FOR THAT.

SO, WE'VE TALKED ABOUT THAT, WE'VE TALKED ABOUT TRYING TO SHIFT THE BLAME.

BUT CAN WE TALK ABOUT THE SUBSTANCE?

THERE HAD BEEN A THOUGHT INSIDE ISRAEL IN THE PRIME MINISTER'S OFFICE AND I DON'T KNOW HOW WIDE IT WENT, THAT HAMAS HAD BEEN MANAGED.

THAT SOMEHOW HAMAS WAS NOT CONSIDERED TO HAVE BEEN INTERESTED IN CONTINUING THE MILITARY FIGHT AGAINST ISRAEL.

AM I CORRECT ABOUT THAT?

AND THAT WAS CLEARLY WRONG.

>> THAT WAS CERTAINLY THE CONCEPTION IN NETANYAHU'S OFFICE.

IN FACT, SOMETHING THAT EMERGED JUST YESTERDAY, ONE OF THE CHANNEL 13 ISRAELI TV NEWS FOUND A RECORDING OF NETANYAHU SPEAKING TO A CAUCUS MEETING JUST IN JUNE, CAUCUS MEETING OF HIS OWN PARTY, IN WHICH HE SAID, I'M TRANSLATING AS I'M READING THIS FROM THE HEBREW, HAMAS IS HAVING DIFFICULTY RECOVERING AND WE'VE SET THEM BACK FOR TEN YEARS.

AND HE TAKES CREDIT FOR DOING THIS.

IN OTHER WORDS, NETANYAHU'S CONCEPTION WAS THAT HAMAS WAS NOT CAPABLE OF GOING TO WAR WITH ISRAEL.

AT THE SAME TIME, THERE ARE MULTIPLE REPORTS INDICATING THAT NETANYAHU HAD BEEN PAYING LESS ATTENTION TO SECURITY AFFAIRS THIS YEAR, BECAUSE HIS MAIN FOCUS WAS ON HIS SO-CALLED, I STRESS SO-CALLED JUDICIAL REFORM.

IN FACT, A BID TO CHANGE ISRAEL'S SYSTEM OF GOVERNMENT AND GIVE MUCH MORE POWER TO THE PRIME MINISTER AND THE GOVERNMENT AND REMOVE JUDICIAL RESTRAINTS, THAT WAS AN ISSUE WHICH WAS TEARING THE COUNTRY APART UP TO THE BEGINNING OF THE WAR.

>> YEAH.

>> MILITARY OFFICIALS WHO SOUGHT MEETINGS WITH HIM WERE PUT OFF.

THAT THE SECURITY CABINET, THE MINISTERIAL COMMITTEE IN CHARGE OF MILITARY AND FOREIGN AFFAIRS, MET ONLY SPORADICALLY.

THAT THE KNESSET COMMITTEE CONTROLLED BY NETANYAHU'S COALITION DID NOT HOLD ANY HEARINGS ON THE POTENTIAL DANGER FROM GAZA.

THERE WAS A -- THERE WAS A COMPLACENCY.

>> YEAH.

>> ON THIS.

>> LET ME ASK YOU THIS, BECAUSE THERE ARE, AS YOU KNOW, THERE HAS BEEN CRITICISM OF THE FACT THAT THE IDF HAD BEEN SHIFTED OVER TO THE WEST BANK AS PART OF HIS POLITICAL PROGRAM, AND THAT OF HIS ULTRACONSERVATIVE COALITION MEMBERS AND PARTNERS.

AND IT'S ABOUT THE SETTLEMENTS AND THE IS THE SETTLERS, THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF VIOLENCE SINCE OCTOBER 7th THERE, MORE THAN 100 PALESTINIANS KILLED SINCE OCTOBER 7th ON THE OCCUPIED WEST BANK.

THIS IS WHAT THE AMERICAN NATIONAL SECURITY -- NATIONAL SECURITY OFFICER JAKE SULLIVAN SAID ON SUNDAY ABOUT -- ABOUT THIS.

>> WE BELIEVE THAT PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU DOES HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY TO REIGN IN THE EXTREMIST SETTLERS ON THE WEST BANK, WHO ARE POURING FUEL ON THE FIRE, AS PRESIDENT BIDEN PUT IT.

AND IT IS TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE TO HAVE THAT VIOLENCE AGAINST INNOCENT PEOPLE IN THE WEST BANK.

THAT IS SOMETHING THAT WE WILL CONTINUE TO PRESS ON.

>> I WANT TO HEAR YOUR REACTION TO THAT.

BOTH FROM AN ISRAELI GOVERNMENT PERSPECTIVE, BUT ALSO FROM A U.S. PERSPECTIVE, BECAUSE YOU COULD SAY THAT UNTIL OCTOBER 7th, THE UNITED STATES HAD SORT OF THOUGHT THAT THINGS, PARTICULARLY JAKE SULLIVAN, THINGS WERE QUIET IN THE MIDDLE EAST AND PERHAPS THE PALESTINIAN ISSUE WOULD BE TAKING CARE OF ITSELF OR OUTSOURCED TO NORMALIZATION DEALS WITH OTHER ARAB COUNTRIES AND ISRAEL.

>> WELL, I WON'T PRETEND TO KNOW WHAT WAS GOING ON INSIDE OF THE WHITE HOUSE AND WHAT WAS SAID PRIVATELY IN CONTRAST TO WHAT WAS SAID PUBLICLY.

I WILL SAY THAT THE PUSH FOR A DEAL -- BETWEEN ISRAEL AND SAUDI ARABIA, LIKE THE PREVIOUS AGREEMENTS BETWEEN ISRAEL AND THE EMIRATES AND OTHER ARAB COUNTRIES, PUT A STRESS ON -- ON MIDDLE EAST PEACE-MAKING AS BEING BETWEEN ISRAEL AND ARAB GOVERNMENTS, AND PUT THE PALESTINIAN ISSUE IN THE BACKGROUND.

I THINK THAT THIS WAS A REVERSAL OF PRIORITIES.

IT WASN'T POSSIBLE TO -- ISRAEL CANNOT SOLVE ITS ESSENTIAL PROBLEM BY MAKING PEACE WITH DISTANT -- RELATIVELY DISTANT ARAB CAPITALS.

THE ISSUE IS A NEED FOR A RESOLUTION OF THE CONFLICT WITH THE PALESTINIANS.

THE FOCUS ON THOSE PEACE AGREEMENTS CERTAINLY SUITED MR. NETANYAHU, WHO HAS ALWAYS CLAIMED THAT THE REAL PROBLEM IS WITH ARAB GOVERNMENTS AND THAT ISRAEL CAN GO ON RULING THE WEST BANK.

THIS GOES BACK TO IDEAS THAT HE EXPRESSED IN A BOOK THAT HE WROTE 30 YEARS AGO.

PRESENTING HIS PROGRAM.

AND ON THIS ISSUE, AT LEAST, HE'S BEEN RELATIVELY CONSISTENT ALL ALONG.

>> GERSHOM, I WANTED TO ASK YOU, YES, INDEED, AND AS YOU SAID, THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE THAT THIS WAS A WAY FOR HIM NEVER TO HAVE THE TWO-STATE SOLUTION AND NOT TO ACTUALLY AGREE TO ANY OF THE -- AT LEAST THE ESTABLISHED PEACE PROCESSES THAT HAVE BEEN UNDER WAY, BUT I WANT TO ASK YOU THIS, YOU SAID AT THE BEGINNING THAT THERE'S BEEN PRECEDENT, THAT IN WORLD WAR II, CHAMBERLAIN WAS FORCED TO RESIGN, BUT THAT WAS BECAUSE HE WAS PERCEIVED TO BE APPEASING HITLER, AS FAR AS I KNOW, AND IT WAS A VERY, VERY, YOU KNOW, PUGNACIOUS WINSTON CHURCHILL WHO TOOK HIS PLACE.

WHY DO YOU CALL FOR NETANYAHU TO BE -- TO RESIGN NOW?

AND WHAT EFFECT WOULD THAT HAVE ON THIS WAR WITH HAMAS NOW?

>> FIRST OF ALL, I THINK THAT NETANYAHU IS -- BEARS PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE LACK OF PREPAREDNESS.

IT WASN'T JUST A MATTER OF HIS LACK OF ATTENTION IN THE LAST YEAR, WHICH I MENTIONED EARLIER, BUT OF HIS STRATEGIC CONCEPTION THAT THE CONFLICT COULD BE MANAGED INDEFINITELY WITHOUT A RESOLUTION.

HIS BEHAVIOR SINCE THE OUTBREAK OF THE WAR HAS BEEN DETACHED FROM THE COUNTRY.

HE DOES NOT INSPIRE CONFIDENCE.

AND THAT, IN TURN, CASTS DOUBT FOR THE PUBLIC ON ANY MOVES THAT THE GOVERNMENT MAKES.

IN ORDER FOR THERE TO BE A SENSE WITHIN ISRAEL THAT THINGS ARE BEING MANAGED PROPERLY, NETANYAHU HAS TO GO.

WE NEED -- WE NEED TO HAVE SOMEBODY LEADING THE COUNTRY IN WHOM THE PUBLIC HAS NOT LOST FAITH.

AND THAT'S -- THAT'S THE BIGGER ISSUE THAN -- WHEN I MENTIONED CHURCHILL AND CHAMBERLAIN, THE BIGGER ISSUE IS NOT TO TRY TO CREATE AN EXACT ANALOGY BETWEEN BRITAIN OF 1940 AND ISRAEL OF TODAY, IT'S TO SAY THAT A COUNTRY IN THE MIDST OF A HUGE CRISIS, A COUNTRY WHICH HAS SUFFERED TREMENDOUS LOSSES, IN WHICH THERE'S A NATIONAL SENSE OF MOURNING AND A CONSTANT AWARENESS OF -- OF WIDESPREAD DEATH OF CIVILIANS, LITERALLY, YOU KNOW, ON EVERY STREET, THERE'S SOMEBODY WHO HAS LOST SOMEBODY, THAT, A COUNTRY IN THAT SITUATION, WHICH IS ISRAEL'S SITUATION TODAY, NEEDS TO BE ABLE TO CONFRONT THAT CRISIS WITH A SENSE OF -- THAT ITS LEADER IS CONNECTED, IS RESPONSIBLE, IS NOT PLAYING POLITICS, BUT IS ACTUALLY DEALING WITH THE CRISIS, AND I THINK FEWER AND FEWER ISRAELIS HAVE THE FEELING THAT BENJAMIN NETANYAHU FILLS THE BILL ON THAT.

>> WELL, AS YOU CAN SEE, AND WE CAN SEE, THE CURRENT EXECUTION, PROSECUTION OF THIS WAR INVOLVES MASSIVE AERIAL BOMBARDMENTS, THE U.N., THE ICFC TELL US THAT NOWHERE IS SAFE IN GAZA, THAT EVEN THE SOUTH, WHERE THEY'VE BEEN RECOMMENDED TO GO BY THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT, IS UNDER BOMBARDMENT.

SO, WHAT I WANT TO ASK YOU IS, AS AN ISRAELI, WHO IS MOURNING, THE WHOLE COUNTRY IS MOURNING AND IN SHOCK, WHAT DO YOU THINK THE EFFECT IS IN ISRAEL, AND WHAT DO YOU THINK IT WILL HAVE FOR ISRAEL OF THIS CONTINUED HUMANITARIAN CATASTROPHE IN GAZA?

>> LOOK, FIRST OF ALL, I WANT TO BE VERY CAREFUL HERE, BECAUSE AS A JOURNALIST, MY MOTTO IS, I DO NOT REPORT THE FUTURE.

IF YOU HAD ASKED ME ON OCTOBER 6th WHAT OCTOBER 7th WOULD BE LIKE, I WOULD NOT HAVE PREDICTED THAT WE'D BE AT WAR.

FURTHER MORE, THE MOOD IN THE COUNTRY CAN CHANGE QUICKLY.

IN WARTIME, IT'S VOLATILE, SO, TO TELL YOU WHAT THE MOOD WILL BE TOMORROW IS EXTREMELY DIFFICULT.

WHAT I CAN SAY IN A GENERAL SENSE IS THAT SUPPORT FOR WARS, PARTICULARLY IN THE INTERNET AGE, OR EVEN STARTING WITH THE TELEVISION AGE, TENDS TO DROP OFF QUICKLY.

THAT IS TO SAY, AS THE CASUALTIES BOTH ON ONE'S OWN SIDE AND ON THE OTHER SIDE BECOME MORE APPARENT, PUBLIC SUPPORT TENDS TO DROP OFF.

SO, I WOULD NOT BE SURPRISED TO SEE THAT HAPPENING IN ISRAEL, BUT I'M NOT -- I'M NOT GOING TO MAKE -- >> UNDERSTOOD.

SO, LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT THE HOSTAGES THEN, BECAUSE THEY HAVE BEEN VERY VOCAL, YOU KNOW, FROM THE BEGINNING, THEY WANT THEIR LOVED ONES BACK, THE FAMILIES I'M TALKING ABOUT, AND THEY HAVE MADE THAT CLEAR TO THE PRIME MINISTER, TO ALL THE JOURNALISTS WHO WILL TALK TO THEM, THEY -- YOU KNOW, THEY'RE DOING SIT-INS OUTSIDE THE OFFICE OF THE PRIME MINISTER.

NOW, WE UNDERSTAND, YOU KNOW, THERE WAS A VIDEO -- ANYWAY, THERE'S A LOT GOING ON WITH HOSTAGES.

BUT AS A HISTORIAN, IS IT POSSIBLE TO DO TWO THINGS AT THE SAME TIME, AS NETANYAHU HAS SAID?

TO TRY TO GET THE HOSTAGES AND CRUSH HAMAS AT THE SAME TIME?

ONE REQUIRES, AS HAS BEEN POINTED OUT, NEGOTIATION.

THE OTHER REQUIRES, YOU KNOW, MILITARY HARDWARE.

WHAT DO YOU THINK?

>> LOOK, ON THE SURFACE, THE TWO GOALS THAT ARE INDEED CONTRADICTORY, THEY'RE AN IMMENSE DILEMMA, NOT JUST FOR THIS GOVERNMENT, BUT FOR ANYBODY WHO WOULD BE MANAGING THIS CONFLICT.

THE DILEMMA IS ACTUALLY DEEPER THAN WHAT YOU'RE LAYING OUT, BECAUSE WHATEVER THE MILITARY STRATEGY IS, IT -- ONE OF THE ESSENTIAL GOALS IS TO PREVENT AN EVEN GREATER DISASTER IN THE FUTURE.

AND IN ANY HOSTAGE NEGOTIATION, ONE OF THE ISSUES IS, ARE YOU ENCOURAGING A REPEAT OF THIS BY WHAT YOU GIVE UP?

SO, THERE'S TREMENDOUS PUBLIC PRESSURE TO SOLVE THE HOSTAGE PROBLEM, WHICH, AS YOU SAID, REQUIRES NEGOTIATING, ALBEIT INDIRECTLY, WITH HAMAS, AND MAKING CONCESSIONS.

AND THERE'S ALSO PRESSURE TO BREAK HAMAS MILITARILY, SO THAT ISRAEL DOES NOT SUFFER A DISASTER LIKE THIS AGAIN.

>> OKAY.

>> THAT'S EXACTLY WHY I SAY THAT HAVING A GOVERNMENT IN WHICH THE -- A MAJORITY OF THE PUBLIC DOES NOT HAVE CONFIDENCE IS A PARTICULARLY GREAT PROBLEM, WHEN THE GOVERNMENT IS FACING SUCH DIFFICULT DECISIONS.

>> YEAH.

IT'S REALLY FASCINATING.

THANK YOU FOR YOUR INCREDIBLE PERSPECTIVE.

THANK YOU.

>>> AND JOINING ME NOW TO DISCUSS IS THE FORMER ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER, EHUD OLMERT.

MR. OLMERT, WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

I WONDER IF I COULD PICK UP WHERE I LEFT OFF WITH GERSHOM SEEMINGLY COMPETING IMPERATIVES, TO GET THE HOSTAGES BACK TO, FOR THE PRIME MINISTER TO, YOU KNOW, DO WHAT THE FAMILIES WANT, AND THAT IS TO SAFEGUARD THE HOSTAGES, AND AT THE SAME TIME, TO QUOTE UNQUOTE CRUSH HAMAS MILITARILY AND POLITICALLY.

ARE THE TWO POSSIBLE AT THE SAME TIME?

>> GOVERNMENT WILL HAVE TO TAKE A DECISION, AND I THINK THAT THIS IS, I WOULD SAY, THE DECISION, WHAT DO WE DO FIRST?

DO WE FOCUS ON THE EVACUATION AND THE RELEASE OF THE HOSTAGES OR DO WE CONTINUE WITH THE FULL-FLEDGED MILITARY ASSAULT AGAINST HAMAS?

AND CAN IT BE SOMEHOW JOINED TOGETHER?

AS I SAID, I DOUBT IT, I DOUBT IT.

I DOUBT IT.

I DOUBT IT.

>> WHAT WOULD YOU DO?

>> WELL, ONE THING I CAN TELL YOU, WHEN I WAS PRIME MINISTER, I THOUGHT THAT THE DEAL THAT WE MADE ABOUT -- THAT WAS OFFERED TO US TO RELEASE ONE PRISONER WAS TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE AND I TURNED IT DOWN.

NOW, WE HAVE 238, ONE WAS RELEASED LAST NIGHT IN A VERY HEROIC MILITARY OPERATION OF OUR SECRET SERVICE, WHICH IS VERY ENCOURAGING, BUT WE STILL HAVE 238 HOSTAGES, AND I DON'T THINK THAT HAMAS IS READY OR WILL BE READY TO RELEASE THEM IN A QUICK DEAL.

IT WILL TAKE A LOT OF TIME TO RELEASE THEM, SO IF THE CONDITION FOR RELEASING THEM IS ENDING THE MILITARY ASSAULT, THEN PRACTICALLY WE HAVE TO GIVE UP THE MILITARY ASSAULT FOR SOMETHING WHICH IS QUESTIONABLE, AND PERHAPS EVEN IMPOSSIBLE, BECAUSE I DON'T THINK THAT HAMAS WILL RELEASE THEM IN ONE SHOT.

THEY WILL THEN BREAK IT OVER A LONG PERIOD OF TIME, WHICH WILL MAKE THE MILITARY OPERATION OBSOLETE, SO -- THE QUESTION IS, WHAT IS THE STRATEGIC INTEREST OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL?

AND THIS IS A VERY TOUGH QUESTION TO ANSWER AT THIS POINT.

>> GOSH.

I MEAN, TO HEAR YOU, YOU KNOW, QUESTION THAT, IS INCREDIBLE, BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT IT BOILS DOWN TO.

WHAT IS THE INTEREST, AND HOW TO ACHIEVE IT?

BUT IN THE MEANTIME, EVEN ISRAEL'S CLOSEST FRIENDS, THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, ARE GETTING MORE AND MORE UPSET AND POLITICALLY, THE PRESIDENT, THE SECRETARY OF STATE, THE NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER, ALL OF THEM ASKING ISRAEL TO PLEASE TAKE CARE OF THE CIVILIANS.

WE'VE HEARD, AND WE WILL PLAY HIS INTERVIEW AFTER WE TALK TO YOU, THERE IS NO SAFE PLACE IN GAZA.

NONE OF THESE CIVILIANS, WHETHER THEY ARE EVEN LISTENING TO THE -- TO THE REQUEST OR THE WARNING TO MOVE FROM NORTH TO SOUTH, THERE'S NO SAFE PLACE.

IT'S ALL GETTING BOMBED.

8,000 DEAD.

MANY OF THEM CHILDREN.

I -- AND AID NOT BEING ALLOWED IN.

I GUESS I JUST WANT TO ASK YOU, AS A PRIME MINISTER, WOULD YOU HAVE IMPOSED A TOTAL SIEGE, NO HUMANITARIAN AID, AND EVEN BOMBING THE SO-CALLED SAFE AREAS?

>> TWO THINGS THAT SHOULD BE EMPHASIZED.

NUMBER ONE, WITH ALL DUE RESPECT TO THE NUMBERS THAT YOU QUOTE, THE NUMBERS ARE NOT VERIFIED.

THEY ARE ABSOLUTELY BLOWN OUT OF ANY REALISTIC PROPORTIONS ABOUT THE DEAD AND THE WOUNDED.

AND THIS IS PART OF THE PROPAGANDA OF HAMAS, WHICH HAS TO BE TAKEN WITH A GRAIN OF SALT.

>> OKAY.

>> AND WITH ALL DUE RESPECT, I CAN'T ACCEPT IT AND I SUGGEST THAT YOU WOULD BE VERY CAREFUL WHEN YOU -- >> OKAY, I ASK YOU THIS SPECIFICALLY.

I ASK YOU THIS SPECIFICALLY, PRIME MINISTER, BECAUSE ALL OF YOUR IDF SPOKESMEN AND PEOPLE SAY, HOW CAN YOU TAKE HAMAS NUMBERS?

FIRST OF ALL, WE HAVE CHECKED WITH U.N. PEOPLE AND WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION, AND THEY SAY TO US, IN THE PAST, THE FIVE, SIX CYCLES OF CONFLICT, THESE FIGURES BY HAMAS-RUN GAZAN MINISTRY OF HEALTH WERE CONSIDERED CONSIDERABLE.

BUT I'M NOT GOING TO GET TIED UP IN A NUMBERS BATTLE WITH YOU.

IT IS AWFUL AND THE CIVILIANS ARE BEING BOMBARDED.

HOW DOES THAT HELP YOUR WAR EFFORT?

>> LET ME TRY TO RESPOND.

FIRST OF ALL, WITH ALL DUE RESPECT, THE U.N.

NUMBERS ARE AS CREDIBLE AS HAMAS NUMBERS, AND WE LEAVE IT ASIDE FOR A SECOND.

I DON'T TRUST U.N.

NUMBERS, THE U.N.

NUMBERS ARE NOT RELIABLE.

>> 50 OF THEIR OWN PEOPLE HAVE BEEN KILLED, THEY TELL US.

ACTUALLY 60 NOW.

63.

>> ALL RIGHT.

>> OF THEIR OWN PEOPLE.

>> I REGRET -- I REGRET THE DEATHS OF -- BELIEVE ME, I REGRET THE DEATHS OF EVERYONE AND I'M VERY SORRY FOR THAT, BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT THEIR REPORTS ABOUT THE NUMBER OF CASUALTIES, THE NUMBER OF VICTIMS ARE NECESSARILY ACCURATE, BUT THE MOST IMPORTANT QUESTION IS WHAT IS EXPECTED FROM ISRAEL TO DO?

WHEN PRESIDENT BIDEN WAS IN ISRAEL, AND PRESIDENT BIDEN IS A FRIEND AND I HAVE NO DOUBT ABOUT HIS TOTAL COMMITMENT, MORAL COMMITMENT AND COMMITMENT FOR THE SECURITY OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL.

WHEN HE SAID ISRAEL HAS A RIGHT TO RESPOND AND WE UNDERSTAND THAT ISRAEL WILL RESPOND AND WE'LL SUPPORT IT, WHAT DID HE EXPECT?

WHAT CAN WE DO THAT WILL NOT, UNFORTUNATELY, INVOLVE A CERTAIN DEGREE OF COLLATERAL DAMAGE?

WE WANT TO AVOID AS MANY VICTIMS AS WE CAN, AND BY THE WAY, ISRAEL AGREED FOR HUMANITARIAN SUPPLY TO THE PALESTINIANS THAT WERE PULLING OUT FROM THE CENTER OF GAZA IN THE SOUTH.

AND THE FACT IS THAT EVERY DAY, THERE ARE -- THERE ARE TENS OF -- CONVOYS OF TRUCKS THAT ARE COMING FROM EGYPT AND PROVIDING SUPPLY AND HUMANITARIAN SUPPORT FOR THE PALESTINIANS.

NOT ONLY THAT WE AGREED TO IT, BUT THERE WAS A BIG DEBATE, YOU KNOW THAT THE NATURE OF THE ISRAELI GOEFT, WHICH IS ENTIRELY NOT -- >> YEAH, YEAH, BUT THERE'S A DROP IN THE OCEAN.

WE'VE BEEN WATCHING IT.

PRIME MINISTER, WE HAVE PEOPLE ON THE BORDER, IT'S A DROP IN THE OCEAN, IT HASN'T BEEN MEANINGFUL YET, HOPEFULLY IT WILL BE.

BUT I GUESS I WANT TO ASK YOU ANOTHER QUESTION THEN -- >> I HOPE SO.

>> BECAUSE YOUR GOVERNMENT, YOUR DEFENSE MINISTER, ALL YOUR DIFFERENT MINISTERS HAVE LAID OUT EXACTLY WHAT THEY THINK.

FULL, TOTAL SIEGE OF GAZA.

THEY'VE SAID IT.

GAZA IS GOING TO BE REDUCED TO A STRIP FULL OF TENTS.

THEY'VE SAID IT.

WE ARE GOING TO REMOVE ALL RESTRAINTS FROM THE IDF, THEY'VE SAID IT.

SO, THEY'VE SAID THESE THINGS.

AND I WONDER HOW IT'S GOING TO TURN OUT, BUT WHAT I WANT TO ASK YOU, ESPECIALLY -- NO, NO, MR. PRIME MINISTER, LISTEN TO ME, I WANT TO KNOW WHETHER YOU THINK THIS IS GOING TO MAKE YOU SAFER IN THE LONG RUN?

BECAUSE THE LATEST POLLS SHOW, AND THEY WERE TAKEN IN GAZA BEFORE THE WAR, BEFORE OCTOBER 7th, THAT A MAJORITY OF GAZANS DO NOT LIKE HAMAS.

THEY WANT TO BE FREED OF HAMAS.

SO, THIS -- THIS COLLECTIVE PUNISHMENT, WHERE DO YOU THINK IT'S GOING TO PUT FUTURE GENERATIONS?

>> IS THERE TIME FOR ANSWER IN YOUR INTERVIEW?

>> YOU'VE GOT 90 SECONDS.

90 SECONDS.

>> RIGHT.

THANK YOU.

>> OKAY, THEN, WE'LL BRING HIM BACK FOR THOSE 90 SECONDS.

LET'S LISTEN, AS I WAS TALKING ABOUT, THE SITUATION IN GAZA.

I'VE BEEN SPEAKING TO WILLIAM SCHOMBURG ABOUT THAT URGENT HUMANITARIAN SITUATION.

TAKE A LISTEN.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

THE UNITED STATES HAS DEMANDED MORE AID AND MUCH FASTER.

IS IT HAPPENING?

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH, CHRISTIANE.

SO, THERE HAS BEEN A TRICKLE OF TRUCKS THAT HAVE BEEN ABLE TO ENTER INTO GAZA VIA THE RAFAH CROSSING WITH EGYPT.

THE INTERNATIONAL COMMITTEE OF THE RED CROSS, THE ICRC, HAS SO FAR BEEN ABLE TO RECEIVE SIX TRUCKS WITH NEEDED MEDICAL AID, WHICH WILL BE GOING TO HOSPITALS IN THE GAZA STRIP, AS WELL AS A SURGICAL TEAM THAT ARRIVED THE DAY BEFORE YESTERDAY, THAT WILL BE SUPPORTING HOSPITALS WITH URGENT SURGERIES REQUIRED FOR THE WEAPON WOUNDED.

WE ARE HOPING THAT MORE TRUCKS WILL ARRIVE TOMORROW AND IN THE DAYS AHEAD.

FRANKLY SPEAKING, IT IS A DROP IN THE OCEAN, RELATIVE TO WHAT IS REQUIRED, GIVEN THE VAST HUMANITARIAN NEEDS THAT RESULTED FROM THE LAST 2 1/2 WEEKS OF HOSTILITIES.SCHOMBURG, WE ARE LOOKING AT TOTAL DESTRUCTION IN SOUTHERN GAZA.

THE ISRAELIS FAMOUSLY HAVE TOLD PEOPLE TO MOVE FROM THE NORTH TO THE SOUTH.

YOU ARE IN THE SOUTH.

WHAT IS THE SITUATION THERE?

>> NOWHERE TODAY IN THE GAZA STRIP IS SAFE.

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT ONE OF THE MOST DENSELY POPULATED LOCATIONS ON EARTH, WITH A POPULATION THAT EXCEEDS 2 MILLION INDIVIDUALS.

THERE WAS -- THERE WAS A -- THERE WAS A -- AN ORDER, A WARNING GIVEN TO THE CIVILIAN POPULATION IN THE NORTH TO MOVE SOUTH, THOUSANDS OF FAMILIES, PERHAPS UP TO 300,000 CIVILIANS, HAVE NOW RELOCATED.

THE REALITY IS THAT AIR STRIKES CONTINUE ACROSS THE GAZA STRIP, INCLUDING IN RAFAH, AND WE UNDERSTAND, THOUGH IT IS VERY DIFFICULT TO VERIFY REPORTS, THAT THERE IS INTENSIFICATION OF HOSTILITIES IN THE NORTH OF THE GAZA STRIP, BUT AS I SAID, RIGHT NOW, GIVEN THE SMALL LAND MASS AND THE HIGH POPULATION, THERE IS, FRANKLY, NOWHERE THAT IS SAFE.

THERE ARE HOSTILITIES EVERYWHERE, AND THERE ARE HUMANITARIAN NEEDS WHEREVER YOU LOOK.

>> WILLIAM SCHOMBURG, WE HAVE HAD SEVERAL DROPOUTS OF OUR CONVERSATION, WE'RE STITCHING IT TOGETHER, I SAY THIS, BECAUSE THE ISRAELIS CUT THE INTERNET AND PHONE LINKS.

THE UNITED STATES INSISTED THEY BE RECONNECTED.

AND IT MEANS THAT PEOPLE CAN'T REACH FAMILIES, THAT AMBULANCES CAN'T REACH THE, YOU KNOW, THE INJURED.

IS IT BACK?

ARE YOU ABLE TO ACTUALLY, YOU KNOW, WORK?

CAN THE HOSPITALS, THE AMBULANCES BY PHONE?

>> TELL COMMUNE KAGS WERE CUT FOR OVER 24 HOURS, WHICH MEANS THAT FAMILIES ARE NOT ABLE TO COMMUNICATE WITH ONE ANOTHER, THE WOUNDED ARE NOT ABLE TO CALL FOR THE SUPPORT OF AMBULANCES, AND HUMANITARIAN AGENCIES ARE NOT ABLE TO OPERATE.

THERE HAS NOW BEEN A LIMITED RETURN OF TELECOMMUNICATIONS, I'M ABLE TO SPEAK OVER THE PHONE.

THE INTERNET DOES NOT WORK IN MANY PLACES IN THE GAZA STRIP.

AND BEING ABLE TO RUN A HUMANITARIAN OPERATION UNDER THE CURRENT CONDITIONS IS VERY COMPLICATED.

MADE EVEN MORE CHALLENGING BY THE FACT THAT WE ARE YET ABLE TO ESTABLISH A FLOW OF BOTH GOODS AND PEOPLE THAT ARE DESPERATELY REQUIRED IN ORDER FOR THE ICRC AND OTHER ACTORS TO MEET URGENT NEEDS ON THE GROUND.

>> AND CAN YOU TELL ME THE UNRA HEAD, THE U.N. HEAD THERE, HAS SAID THAT, YOU KNOW, SOCIAL FABRIC IS AT RISK, IF NOT ALREADY FALLING APART, BECAUSE IT'S JUST IMPOSSIBLE RIGHT NOW.

THAT PEOPLE -- DESPERATE PEOPLE HAVE LOOTED SOME OF THEIR WAREHOUSES.

CAN YOU CONFIRM THAT KIND OF THING HAPPENING?

>> IN TERMS OF -- IN TERMS OF LOOTING, I AM, OF COURSE, AWARE OF THESE REPORTS AND WE ARE HIGHLY ALARMED BY THEM.

I THINK WHAT WE NEED TO FOCUS ON VERY CLEARLY IS THE FACT THAT MOTHERS DO NOT HAVE COOKING GAS TO BE ABLE TO PROVIDE HOT MEALS TO THEIR CHILDREN.

THE ELDERLY ARE INCREASINGLY UNABLE TO ACCESS HEALTH SERVICES OR MEDICATIONS, WHICH ARE DWINDLING ON THE LOCAL MARKET.

AND SUPPLIES OF CLEAN WATER ARE BECOMING EVER MORE CHALLENGING TO GET HOLD OF.

SIMPLY PUT, THE CIVILIAN POPULATION HAS VERY DESPERATE HUMANITARIAN NEEDS.

THAT IS NOT TO SAY THAT THERE ARE NOT OTHERS WHO MIGHT BE BENEFITING FROM THE SITUATION SOMEHOW.

CLEARLY, THE LEVEL OF DESPERATION IS GROWING BY THE HOUR.

>> I'M ASSUMING THAT SOME OF THE LOOTERS WILL BE DESPERATE PEOPLE THAT ARE HUNGRY.

I'M NOT ON THE GROUND, I DON'T KNOW.

THE OTHER QUESTION IS ABOUT THE AL QUDS HOSPITAL.

THE ISRAELIS WARNED THE HOSPITAL, BUT EYEWITNESSES SAY THEY ARE HITTING QUITE CLOSE TO IT, AND THE DOCTORS SAY THEY CANNOT LEAVE, BECAUSE THEY CANNOT EVACUATE THEIR PATIENTS.

>> WHEN IT COMES TO THE AL QUDS HOSPITAL, WHICH IS RUN BY THE PALESTINIAN RED CRESCENT, A KEY PARTNER OF THE INTERNATIONAL RED CROSS, WE ARE IN CLOSE CAUSE TACT WITH THE TEAM, WHO ARE WORKING THEIR TIRELESSLY TO TREAT THE SICK AND THE WOUNDED.

THE REALITY IS, HEALTH CARE WORKERS, DOCTORS AND NURSES, ARE OPERATING AROUND THE CLOCK IN THE TOUGHEST OF CONDITIONS TO BE ABLE TO CARE FOR THESE PEOPLE, WHILE AT THE SAME TIME, LIKE HOSPITALS ACROSS THE GAZA STRIP, THEY ARE ALSO HOSTING THOUSANDS, POTENTIALLY TENS OF THOUSANDS OF INTERNALLY DISPLACED CIVILIANS WHO HAVE TAKEN REFUGE IN HOSPITALS BECAUSE THEY FEAR THAT THEY HAVE NOWHERE ELSE SAFE TO GO.

HOSPITALS MUST BE SANCTUARIES FOR THE WOUNDED AND THE SICK AND SHOULD NEVER BE SITES OF VIOLENCE OR DESTRUCTION.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH, INDEED, THANK YOU.

>>>COMS HAVE BEEN BAD ALL OVER THE PLACE, I WANT TO BRING BACK EHUD OLMERT.

YOU ARE BACK WITH US.

I WANT YOU TO ANSWER THE LAST QUESTION, ALREADY, THE PALESTINIANS IN GAZA HAD LOST FAITH, THE MAJORITY, IN HAMAS.

SO, I WANT TO KNOW THESE KINDS OF REPORTS THAT WE'RE SEEING, YOU KNOW, THE HUMANITARIAN CATASTROPHE, WHAT YOU THINK THAT WILL -- WHAT EFFECT THAT WILL HAVE, YOU KNOW, FOR ANOTHER GENERATION, IN TERMS OF ISRAEL'S SECURITY?

>> HAMAS WILL BE IN CONTROL OF GAZA, THERE WILL NOT BE ANY CHANGE.

THEY WILL CONTINUE TO BE THE VICTIMS OF THE ATROCITIES AND THE IRON FIST OF HAMAS AGAINST THE CIVILIANS IN GAZA.

THE ONLY WAY TO RELEASE THOSE PEOPLE THAT SUFFER FROM HAMAS IN GAZA IS TO ERADICATE HAMAS, WHICH MEANS THAT ISRAEL HAS TO CONTINUE ITS MILITARY OPERATION AND TO TRY AND DO IT IN THE MOST CAREFUL MANNER IN ORDER TO REDUCE THE COLLATERAL DAMAGE TO THE MAXIMUM POSSIBLE.

AND THAT'S WHAT WE ARE TRYING TO DO.

WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING.

YOU KNOW, I ASK YOU, I ASK YOU, CHRISTIANE, WHEN YOU SAY, AND YOU INTERVIEWED ME ON THE FIRST DAY, THAT YOU UNDERSTAND THAT ISRAEL HAS TO REACT, WHAT EXACTLY DID ANYONE EXPECT THAT ISRAEL WOULD DO?

CAN WE ATTACK HAMAS WITHOUT REACHING OUT FOR WHERE THEY ARE?

AND IF THEY ARE IN THE CENTER OF GAZA, CAN WE DO SOMETHING THAT WILL NOT POSSIBLY ALSO CREATE CERTAIN COLLATERAL DAMAGE, WHICH IS -- HOW CAN WE RELEASE GAZA FROM HAMAS IF WE WILL NOT ATTACK THEM?

>> WE WILL CONTINUE TO FOLLOW THIS.

EHUD OLMERT, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR BEING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> AND NOW, TO THE UNITED STATES.

WHERE AN UNPRECEDENTED TRIAL BEGINS IN COLORADO.

A HANDFUL OF REPUBLICAN AND INDEPENDENT VOTERS ARE TRYING TO BAN FORMER PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP FROM EVER ENTERING THE WHITE HOUSE AGAIN OVER HIS ROLE IN THE JANUARY 6th INSURRECTION.

OFFICER HARRY DUNN WAS DEFENDING THE CAPITOL WHEN THE RIOTS TOOK PLACE, AND NOW HE'S WRITTEN A BOOK CALLED "STANDING MY GROUND" ABOUT THAT EXPERIENCE.

HE TELLS MICHEL MARTIN HOW HE TRIED TO SAVE AMERICA THAT DAY.

THIS CONVERSATION IS PART OF OUR ONGOING INITIATIVE THAT REPORTS ON THREATS TO DEMOCRACY, THE IMPACT OF CHANGES TO VOTING LAWS, AND WHAT CITIZENS NEED TO KNOW.

IT'S CALLED "PRESERVING DEMOCRACY."

>> THANKS, CHRISTIANE.

OFFICER HARRY DUNN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME ON, IT'S GOOD TO BE WITH YOU.

>> WE'RE TALKING ABOUT YOUR BOOK, AND I THINK PEOPLE WILL HAVE SEEN YOU, ANYBODY WHO'S FOLLOWED THIS STORY WILL HAVE SEEN YOU, BUT YOU'VE DONE A LOT OF INTERVIEWS AND YOU'VE TALKED A LOT ABOUT YOUR EXPERIENCES ON JANUARY 6th AND FOLLOWING THAT.

I WAS JUST WONDERING WHAT MADE YOU WANT TO WRITE THE BOOK?

WAS THERE A PARTICULAR STORY THAT YOU WANTED TO TELL THAT YOU HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO TELL SO FAR?

>> WELL, I'VE BEEN VERY FORTUNATE TO HAVE PEOPLE CARE ABOUT WHAT I'VE HAD TO SAY, AND I THINK THAT KIND OF LED TO THE WRITING OF THE BOOK.

I WAS GIVEN THIS PLATFORM, SO TO SPEAK, AND INDIVIDUALS SEEM TO RESONATE WITH SOME OF THE THINGS I WAS SAYING, AND IF I COULD DO MY PART TO HELP INSPIRE SOMEBODY, TO EDUCATE SOMEBODY, TO SHINE A BETTER LIGHT ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED THAT DAY, JANUARY 6th, THEN IT'S WORTH IT.

ADDITIONALLY, IT WAS STILL CATHARTIC AND HEALING FOR ME TO WRITE THIS BOOK.

>> YOU STARTED IT BY SAYING, "WE'VE ALL BEEN THROUGH A TRAUMA."

YOU KNOW, WHETHER WE WANT TO ACKNOWLEDGE IT OR NOT.

WHY DID YOU WANT TO START THAT WAY?

>> BECAUSE MY FEELINGS WERE FRONT AND CENTER WITH THIS BOOK.

IT WAS A VERY PAINFUL EXPERIENCE FOR ME.

IT WAS VERY HURTFUL, A GUT PUNCH, IF YOU WOULD.

THE REASON WHY I INCLUDED ALL OF US, WE NEED TO TALK ABOUT OUR TRAUMA, IS BECAUSE JANUARY 6th, WHICH WILL GO DOWN AS ONE OF THE DARKEST DAYS IN AMERICAN HISTORY, THE POLICE OFFICERS, WHETHER, YOU KNOW, WE WERE THE ONES WHO WERE CATCHING THE BRUNT OF THE PHYSICAL ABUSE, IT WAS AN ATTACK ON OUR SYSTEM OF GOVERNMENT, OUR DEMOCRACY, SO, THAT EFFECTS EVERY SINGLE AMERICAN PERSON, WHETHER THEY KNOW IT OR NOT.

SO, YOU KNOW, SOME PEOPLE WERE THOUSANDS OF MILES AWAY, WATCHING IT ON THEIR iPAD OR WATCHING IT ON THEIR TELEVISION, ON THEIR PHONE, AND THEY FELT SOME KIND OF A WAY, SO -- ALL OF US EXPERIENCED SOME KIND OF TRAUMA THAT DAY.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS I FOUND REALLY MOVING ABOUT YOUR BOOK, YOU TALKED ABOUT THE FACT THAT AS A CAPITOL POLICE OFFICER, YOU TOOK IT VERY SERIOUSLY.

YOUR JOB WAS TO PROTECT FREE SPEECH, YOUR JOB WAS TO PROTECT THE RIGHT OF DEMONSTRATORS TO EXPRESS THEMSELVES WITHIN APPROPRIATE BOUNDARIES.

YOU POINT OUT, YOU DIDN'T ALWAYS TAKE IT THAT SERIOUSLY, SO, HOW DID IT COME TO YOU?

>> CORRECT.

YEAH, YOU KNOW, WHEN I FIRST STARTED THE JOB, I WAS THIS YOUNG KID THAT HAD GOT A GOOD-PAYING JOB, AND IT WAS A FIRST REAL JOB, AND IT WAS A PAYCHECK.

AND, YOU KNOW, THAT'S WHAT IT WAS.

AND THEN, IT TURNED INTO A CAREER.

PEOPLE COME UP TO THE CAPITOL ALL THE TIME TO EXPRESS THEIR GRIEVANCES WITH THEIR GOVERNMENT, WITH THEIR ELECTED OFFICIALS, AND SOMETIMES, YOU KNOW, WE WOULD BE OUT THERE ON THE PERIMETER WATCHING THESE PEOPLE PROTEST WITH ALL THEIR HEART AND THEIR SOUL AND SO PASSIONATE ABOUT ANY AND EVERY EVENT.

AND THEN JUST SITTING THERE LISTENING TO SOME OF THE GRIEVANCES THAT THEY WERE RAISING, WHETHER IT WOULD BE, YOU KNOW, MEDICARE BEING TOO HIGH OR WHETHER IT BE THE COST OF GROCERIES OR -- SO, YOU KNOW, IT WAS KIND OF LIKE A PERSONAL GROWTH.

AND I STARTED SAYING, YOU KNOW, THIS STUFF DOES EFFECT ME, AND I SAW HOW OTHER INDIVIDUALS WERE SO ENGAGED AND INVOLVED IN THEIR GOVERNMENT, AND IT KIND OF MADE ME TAKE NOTICE AND THEN SAY, YOU THOUGH WHAT, THIS IS REALLY AN IMPORTANT PART OF OUR GOVERNMENT, AND I'M HONORED TO HAVE A PART IN PLAYING -- PLAYING A SMALL PART IN DEFENDING THOSE INDIVIDUALS' RIGHT TO DO SO.

>> DO YOU THINK THAT YOUR FELLOW OFFICERS, TO THE DEGREE WHICH YOU FEEL COMFORTABLE SPEAKING FOR THEM, FELT THE SAME WAY YOU DO, THAT YOUR JOB WAS NOT JUST TO KEEP MEMBERS OF CONGRESS SAY, BUT ALSO TO PROTECT PEOPLE'S RIGHT TO ADDRESS THEIR GOVERNMENT, DO YOU THINK THAT OTHER OFFICERS FEEL THE SAME WAY YOU DO?

>> YEAH, THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION.

YOU KNOW, I'VE ALWAYS MADE IT CLEAR THAT I DON'T ATTEMPT TO TRY TO SPEAK FOR ANYBODY BUT MYSELF, BUT THERE ARE A FEW OFFICERS THAT, YOU KNOW, JUST HAVING CONVERSATIONS, TALKED ABOUT THE DEMONSTRATIONS THAT WE WOULD SEE ON A DAY-TO-DAY BASIS UP THERE, AND I BELIEVE THAT MY COWORKERS DO TAKE THEIR INDIVIDUALS HAVING THOSE RIGHTS VERY SERIOUSLY.

I DON'T KNOW IF EVERYBODY REALIZES THE GRAVITY AND THE MAGNITUDE THAT JANUARY 6th BROUGHT TO THE FOREFRONT, THAT DEMOCRACY IS IN SUCH PERIL, OR IT'S SO FRAGILE, THAT WE NEED TO FIGHT EVEN HARDER TO PROTECT IT.

>> GOING BACK TO THE EVENTS SORT OF LEADING UP TO JANUARY 6th, WHEN DID YOU REALIZE THAT THIS WAS GOING TO BE -- THAT THIS WAS DIFFERENT?

THIS WASN'T LIKE OTHER DEMONSTRATIONS WHERE YOU HAD WORKED?

>> LOOKING BACK NOW, NOW THAT IT ALREADY HAPPENED, THERE WAS SIGNS THAT THIS SHOWED THAT THIS WASN'T A NORMAL PROTEST.

LIKE, I'LL GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE.

WE WERE IN THE MIDDLE OF A PANDEMIC AT THE TIME, AND, YOU KNOW, THE -- D.C. OFFICES WERE CLOSED, IT WAS -- NOBODY WAS -- IT WAS -- TRAFFIC WAS NONEXISTENT.

SO, DRIVING DOWN INTO WORK, IT WOULD BE A PIECE OF CAKE.

AND THAT MORNING, 6:30 IN THE MORNING, THERE WERE PEOPLE WALKING DOWN NORTH CAPITOL STREET WITH FLAGS AND -- THIS IS IN THE MIDDLE -- THIS IS WEIRD.

THERE'S PEOPLE OUT HERE, WHAT'S GOING ON?

SO, BEING ABLE TO LOOK BACK, TOOK THAT INTO ACCOUNT.

BUT ON THE ACTUAL DAY, WHEN THEY GOT THE CALLS, WHEN WE GOT THE CALLS FOR THE PIPE BOMBS, THAT WERE FOUND AT THE RNC AND DNC RESPECTIVELY, THAT KIND OF SAID, ALL RIGHT, THIS IS -- THIS IS A REALLY BAD THING THAT'S GOING ON HERE.

>> FIRST OF ALL, WHERE WERE YOU WHEN THE VIOLENCE ERUPTED?

WHERE EXACTLY WERE YOU POSITIONED?

>> SO, I WAS ON THE EAST SIDE OF THE CAPITOL, WHERE -- NOT THE WEST FRONT WHERE THEY CAME FROM ON THE ELLIPSE, AND THE REASON WHY I RESPONDED OVER TO THE WEST SIDE, WHERE THE INAUGURAL STAGE WAS UNDER CONSTRUCTION.

ONE OF THE REASONS I RAN OVER THERE IS BECAUSE THEY WERE CALLING ON THE RADIO FOR OFFICERS TO RESPOND OVER THERE, AND I COULD HEAR THE HORROR AND THE FEAR IN THE OFFICERS VOICES THAT WERE SAYING, SEND US MORE UNITS OVER HERE.

AND I DIDN'T HAVE A VIEW OF WHAT WAS GOING ON, BUT I JUST IMAGINED THE WORST, WHEN YOU COULD HEAR THE FEAR AND THE ANGUISH IN THEIR VOICES ON THE RADIO CALLING FOR MORE BACKUP.

>> YOU ALSO POINT OUT IN THE BOOK THAT -- YOU KNOW, LOOK, JANUARY 6th WAS HORRIBLE, I -- FOR EVERYBODY IN LAW ENFORCEMENT, I MEAN, WE SAW IT WITH OUR OWN, YOU KNOW, EYES.

I'M THINKING ABOUT, YOU KNOW, AN OFFICER THAT WAS BASICALLY -- LOOKED LIKE HE WAS BEING CRUSHED IN ONE OF THE DOORWAYS.

>> OFFICER DANIEL HODGES.

GOOD FRIEND OF MINE.

>> BUT THERE WAS ALSO A LEVEL OF KIND OF RACIST ABUSE THAT OFFICERS LIKE YOU AND OTHER AFRICAN AMERICAN OFFICERS HAD TO EXPERIENCE.

AND I WAS JUST -- JUST INTERESTED IN WHAT YOU -- HOW DO YOU THINK ABOUT THAT?

>> YEAH, YOU KNOW, SO, I DON'T BELIEVE THAT AT ITS CORE THE JANUARY 6th WAS THIS BIG OLD RACIST FEST, THIS RACIST-FUELED EVENT, I DON'T BELIEVE THAT.

I DO BELIEVE THAT THERE WERE A LOT OF RACIST INDIVIDUALS THERE.

LIKE THE OFFICER THAT YOU JUST MENTIONED, DANIEL HODGES, HE'S A WHITE OFFICER, AS HE WAS BEING ATTACKED AND PUMMELED BY OTHER WHITE PEOPLE IN THE CROWD.

SO, THESE PEOPLE WERE OPPORTUNISTS THAT JUST TOOK ADVANTAGE, AND ATTACKED ANYBODY THAT WAS IN THEIR WAY, AND STOPPED THEM.

SO, I DON'T THINK, LIKE I SAID, THE RACE, NECESSARILY, PLAYED AN ISSUE IN THEIR BEHAVIORS, HOWEVER, THE RACIST INDIVIDUALS LET THEIR THOUGHTS BE KNOWN HOW THEY FELT THAT DAY TOWARDS PEOPLE OF COLOR.

>> AND IS THAT THE FIRST TIME YOU'D EXPERIENCED THAT ON THE JOB?

>> ON THE JOB, THAT WAS THE FIRST TIME I HAD BEEN CALLED THE N-WORD IN UNIFORM, CORRECT.

WHICH IS REALLY -- WHICH IS REALLY TELLING, BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, THE WHOLE, YOU KNOW, WITH THE BACK THE BLUE KIND OF THING.

AND IT WAS -- I WAS SURPRISED, MAYBE I SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN, BUT I WAS.

>> AND THERE WAS THIS SENSE, GEE, IF THIS HAD BEEN BLACK LIVES MATTER DEMONSTRATORS, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN DEALT WITH DIFFERENTLY.

HOW DO YOU RESPOND TO THAT?

>> I DON'T KNOW.

I KIND OF HAVE TO PUSH BACK A LITTLE BIT ON THAT, BECAUSE BLACK LIVES MATTER DEMONSTRATORS DID COME UP TO THE CAPITOL AND THEY DID NOT ASSAULT POLICE OFFICERS, THEY DID NOT CROSS POLICE LINES.

IN FACT, THERE WERE SOME OFFICERS WHO TOOK KNEES WITH BLACK LIVES MATTER PROTESTERS IN SOLIDARITY.

SO, I THINK -- I CAN ONLY SPEAK TO, LIKE, JUST WHAT HAPPENED AT THE CAPITOL, I AM NOT SPEAKING ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED IN PORTLAND OR EVEN DOWNTOWN D.C. BY THE WHITE HOUSE OR IN MINNESOTA, I CAN'T SPEAK TO ANY OF THAT, BUT JUST AT THE CAPITOL, THE PROTESTS THAT WAS AT THE CAPITOL WHEN BLACK LIVES MATTER WAS THERE WAS JUST THAT, IT WAS A PROTEST.

WHAT HAPPENED ON JANUARY 6th WAS A RIOT AND AN INSURRECTION.

>> A NUMBER OF OFFICERS DIED ON JANUARY 6th AND OTHERS TOOK THEIR OWN LIVES AFTERWARDS, AND I JUST WONDER HOW YOU LEARNED OF THIS AND HOW DID YOU PROCESS THAT?

>> YOU KNOW, THAT'S ONE OF THE THINGS I FEEL LIKE THAT'S OVERLOOKED IN THE WHOLE JANUARY 6th TALKING POINTS, THAT THERE WERE REAL VICTIMS THAT DAY.

YOU KNOW, OFFICER BRIAN SITNICK DIED THAT DAY, JEFFREY SMITH, TWO OTHER METROPOLITAN POLICE OFFICERS DIED VIA SUICIDE AFTERWARDS, AND, YOU KNOW, ANY TIME SOMEBODY LOSES THEIR LIFE, WE SHOULD -- WE SHOULD HAVE A LITTLE BIT OF COMPASSION, BUT IT'S TURNED INTO, LIKE I SAID, TALKING POINTS, YOU KNOW?

IF ONE SIDE WILL SAY, YOU KNOW, OFFICERS WERE KILLED ON JANUARY 6th, THEN ANOTHER SIDE WILL COME BACK AND SAY, NOBODY DIED ON SO, THE HUMAN LIFE ELEMENT HAS BEEN LOST, HAS BEEN TAKEN, AND IT'S VERY FRUSTRATING, BECAUSE I KNOW SOME OF THE WIDOWS, AND I KNOW PEOPLE, THE MOTHER OF SOME OF THE OFFICERS AND -- THEY WOULD DO ANYTHING TO HAVE THEIR BABIES BACK, TO HAVE THEIR LOVED ONES BACK, SO -- THAT REALLY GETS TO ME AT MY CORE, BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, LIKE, JANUARY 6th HAS BECOME THIS POLITICAL TALKING POINT, BUT REAL LIFE VICTIMS WERE -- AND LIVES WERE CHANGED FOREVER THAT DAY.

>> AND YOU'RE STILL ON THE JOB, THOUGH?

>> YEAH.

>> YOU'RE STILL ON THE FORCE.

I'M JUST WONDERING WHAT IT'S LIKE FOR YOU TO -- TO BE UP THERE, YOU ARE A TRAINING OFFICER, SO, YOU'RE DOING OTHER THINGS, BUT YOU KNOW, THERE ARE MEMBERS OF CONGRESS WHO ARE STILL SERVING WHO HAVE DENIED THAT THIS WAS A VIOLENT RIOT, THAT THIS WAS A VIOLENT MOB ATTACK, THAT THIS WAS AN INSURRECTION.

THERE ARE MEMBERS STILL SERVING WHO SAY THESE WERE PEOPLE WHO WERE JUST TOURISTS.

>> THAT'S ANOTHER REASON WHY I WROTE THE BOOK.

MY BOOK ISN'T FOR THOSE MEMBERS OF CONGRESS.

IT'S FOR THE AMERICAN PEOPLE TO HAVE A -- AN ACCURATE REPRESENTATION OF WHAT HAPPENED THAT DAY.

SOMEBODY THAT WAS THERE, TO TELL THEIR STORY, SO THEY CAN KNOW WHAT REALLY HAPPENED.

BECAUSE WHO HOLDS THE PEOPLE IN CONGRESS ACCOUNTABLE?

THE AMERICAN PEOPLE DO.

AND THEY DO IT WITH THE STRONGEST TOOL THAT WE HAVE TO PROTECT -- FOR DEMOCRACY, AND THAT IS THEIR VOTE, SO, YOU KNOW, EDUCATED VOTERS MAKE EDUCATED DECISIONS AND CHOICES FOR PEOPLE IN OFFICE.

SO, PEOPLE ARE STILL BEING FED MISINFORMATION ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED, YOU KNOW, IT'S UP TO US, OR PEOPLE THAT WERE THERE TO SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT, IF YOU WILL.

>> I MEAN, AS WE ARE SPEAKING NOW, A NUMBER OF PEOPLE HAVE GONE TO TRIAL, MANY HAVE BEEN CONVICTED, A FEW HAVE BEEN ACQUITTED OF SOME SORT OF CHARGES, I MEAN, PEOPLE ARE GOING TO JAIL, BUT OTHER PEOPLE -- OTHER PEOPLE ARE STILL MAINTAINING THAT, YOU KNOW, THEY DIDN'T DO ANYTHING WRONG, OR THAT THEY HAD A GOOD FAITH BASIS FOR THINKING THAT THEY WERE DOING SORT OF THE RIGHT THING, AND I'M JUST -- I DON'T KNOW, DO YOU FEEL THAT ACCOUNTABILITY IS AT HAND?

>> WELL, THAT'S WHAT MAKES IT EVEN MORE DIFFICULT, BECAUSE MY DEFINITION OF ACCOUNTABILITY IS TO DETER INDIVIDUALS FROM DOING THIS AGAIN.

HOWEVER, WHAT HAPPENS IF -- EVEN IF CONVICTED, THESE INDIVIDUALS BELIEVE IN THEIR HEART THEY WERE RIGHT?

SO, YOU KNOW, WHAT'S TO STOP FROM DOING IT OR HAPPENING AGAIN?

I THINK THAT'S ONE OF THE MOST THINGS THAT I STRUGGLE WITH THE MOST, REGARDING ACCOUNTABILITY, BECAUSE, LIKE I SAID, YOU HAVE PEOPLE WHO WERE THERE AND PEOPLE WHO WERE INCITED AND DOUBLING DOWN AND SAYING THAT THEY DIDN'T DO ANYTHING WRONG.

SO, IT'S REALLY FRUSTRATE, AND I DON'T EVEN KNOW HOW TO OVERCOME THAT, BUT THAT -- THAT EXISTS, SO -- AS FAR AS, YOU KNOW, AS FAR AS WHATEVER THE GOVERNMENT OR THE PROSECUTORS OR, YOU KNOW, THE PEOPLE THAT ARE -- THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT, WHATEVER THEY CAN DO, BUT HOW DO YOU -- HOW DO YOU COMBAT AN IDEOLOGY, YOU KNOW?

>> HOW HAS YOUR LIFE CHANGED SINCE JANUARY 6th?

YOU TALK A LOT ABOUT IT IN THE BOOK, BUT FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVEN'T, YOU KNOW, READ IT YET OR HAVEN'T HAD A CHANCE TO HEAR YOU TALK ABOUT IT, I MEAN, FOR ONE THING, YOU'VE BEEN VERY HONEST ABOUT THE FACT THAT YOU SUFFER FROM POST-TRAUMATIC STRESS.

>> YEAH, I'LL BE OUT WITH SOME OF MY FRIENDS, BEING AROUND CROWDS, I'M A LITTLE ON EDGE A LITTLE BIT, EVEN MORE, LIKE I SAID, I'VE ALWAYS PAID ATTENTION TO MY SURROUNDINGS AND SUCH, BUT EVEN MORE SO NOW, LIKE, I'LL SEE A RED HAT AND I'M WONDERING, IS THAT GUY A TRUMP SUPPORTER?

OR I'LL SEE THE CARGO PANTS AND THE TACTICAL GEAR, YOU KNOW, LIKE, WAIT, WAS THAT GUY THERE ON JANUARY 6th?

SO I'M DOING A LOT BETTER, LIKE I SAID, WE'RE GOING ON, YOU KNOW, THREE YEARS IN JANUARY, SO, I'VE HEALED A LOT, BUT AS FAR AS, LIKE, THE PTSD, YOU REALLY HAVE TO FIGHT TO SHAPE YOUR NARRATIVE, TO CHANGE YOUR NARRATIVE, AND UNDERSTAND WHY YOU'RE DOING WHAT YOU'RE DOING.

AND IS IT IMPORTANT TO DO WHAT YOU'RE DOING?

WHILE MISINFORMATION IS STILL BEING SPREAD AND DEMOCRACY IS STILL AT, YOU KNOW, AT A RISK OF BEING DESTROYED, THERE'S STILL SOMETHING THAT I CAN DO, SO, WHICH IS WHY I CONTINUE TO SPEAK OUT AND SEEK ACCOUNTABILITY AND JUSTICE.

>> AND AS WE ARE SPEAKING NOW, FOUR PEOPLE WHOLE ARE ASSOCIATED WITH FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP HAVE NOW PLEADED GUILTY TO VARIOUS CHARGES IN THEIR ROLE IN ASPECTS OF THE JANUARY 6th EXPERIENCE, SORT OF BROADLY DEFINED, I MEAN, SPECIFICALLY IN THE GEORGIA ELECTION SUBVERSION CASE, AND I JUST -- I WONDER, DOES THAT -- DOES THAT HELP IN ANY WAY?

DOES THAT FEEL LIKE JUSTICE TO YOU?

>> NO, I -- I GUESS, YOU KNOW, LIKE I SAID, A DIFFERENT CASE GOING DOWN THERE IN GEORGIA, I'VE BEEN FOCUSED ON THE ONE THAT'S HAPPENING ON MARCH 3rd, MARCH 4th HERE IN D.C., BUT SEEING INDIVIDUALS WITH -- I BELIEVE THEY TOOK PLEA DEALS, THAT, YOU KNOW, FOREVER WHATEVER IT IS, THEY ARE TRYING TO SAVE THEIR OWN BUTTS, BUT WHEN INDIVIDUALS TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEIR ACTIONS, THAT'S A LITTLE BIT ENCOURAGING.

I DON'T KNOW, LIKE I SAID, I DON'T KNOW THE DEPTHS AND THE SPECIFICS OF WHAT THEY ACTUALLY PLEAD TO OR, YOU KNOW, WHAT CAME -- THE CONSEQUENCES WERE, BUT AT LEAST THEY ACKNOWLEDGED THAT, YOU KNOW, I'M GUILTY, SO, THAT'S, I GUESS, IF ANYTHING, THAT'S ENCOURAGING, I GUESS.

>> AND WHAT ABOUT PRESIDENT TRUMP?

>> THAT'S ONE OF THE GUYS THAT DOESN'T THINK HE DID ANYTHING WRONG.

AND THAT'S A LITTLE FRUSTRATING.

AND I DON'T KNOW HOW -- I DON'T KNOW HOW TO DEAL WITH THAT.

I'VE HEARD THE SAYING THAT TRUTH IS THE BEST DISINFECTANT, AND AS LONG AS WE CONTINUE -- WE, MEANING THE ENTIRE COUNTRY -- CONTINUE TO SHED LIGHT AND THE TRUTH, WE'LL BE -- THAT'S THE ONLY WAY WE CAN COMBAT IT, I GUESS.

>> THIS IS PART OF OUR HISTORY NOW, AND AT SOME POINT, IT'S GOING TO BE IN A TEXTBOOK, AND I'M JUST WONDERING, WHAT DO YOU HOPE THAT CHAPTER WILL SAY?

>> THAT EVEN THOUGH THAT DAY HAPPENED, DEMOCRACY ONLY GOT STRONGER AFTER THAT.

SO, LIKE I SAID, WE'RE STILL TRYING TO FIGURE IT OUT NOW, BUT I HOPE THAT IN THE END, THIS ONLY MAKES US APPRECIATE DEMOCRACY MORE, AND EVERYBODY REALIZE THAT THEY HAVE A ROLE IN DEFENDING IT, LIKE I SAID, WHETHER THAT BE AN OFFICER AT THE CAPITOL, WHETHER THAT BE AN EMPLOYEE AT THE GAS STATION IN WISCONSIN, THEY HAVE A VOTE, SO, EVERYBODY HAS A ROLE IN DEFENDING THIS.

AND I JUST HOPE THAT PEOPLE REALIZE THAT THIS IS SOMETHING THAT WE CANNOT TAKE FOR GRANTED.

>> OFFICER HARRY DUNN, THANK YOU FOR SPEAKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> AND FINALLY, IN THIS STRUGGLE, TO IRAN, WHERE THE RENOWNED HUMAN RIGHTS DEFENDER HAS BEEN ARRESTED AND BEATEN.

THAT HAPPENED ON SUNDAY AT THE FUNERAL OF THE 16-YEAR-OLD GIRL WHO WAS ALLEGEDLY ASSAULTED BY IRAN'S MORALITY POLICE FOR NOT WEARING A HEADSCARF.

THEY WERE OUT OF JAIL ON MEDICAL FURLOUGH AFTER BEING SENTENCED TO 38 YEARS IN PRISON AND 148 LASHES, THAT WAS BACK IN MARCH OF 2019.

WHEN SHE WAS LOBBYING ON BEHALF OF GIRLS RIGHTS.

WHEN I SPOKE TO HER FROM TEHRAN THIS FEBRUARY, I ASKED IF SHE WAS AFRAID FOR HER OWN SAFETY.

>> YES.

I AM FEARFUL, BECAUSE OF THAT.

AND -- BUT ON THE OTHER HAND, I'M ALSO FRIGHTENED THAT IF I DON'T DO ANYTHING, IF I STAY PASSIVE, THAT WOULD LEAD TO WORSENING OF THE SITUATION, A KIND OF SLAVERY OF OUR YOUNG WOMEN AND MEN.

>> THOSE ARE THE STAKES, AND THAT IS HER COURAGE.

ACCORDING TO HER HUSBAND, SHE'S IN PRISON, WHERE SHE'S BEEN REFUSED VISITORS.

SHE'S ON HUNGER STRIKE, AND SHE'S REFUSING MEDICATIONS.

JUST LAST WEEK, SHE WAS HONORED IN ABSENTIA, WINNING THE 2023 CIVIL COURAGE PRIZE IN NEW YORK CITY.

>>> THAT'S IT FOR NOW.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING.

GOOD-BYE FROM LONDON.