October 4, 2024

>>> HELLO, EVERYONE AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & CO." HERE IS WHAT'S COMING UP.

A DESPERATE AND CHAOTIC SITUATION IN LEBANON AS ISRAEL ESCALATES AIR STRIKES ACROSS THE COUNTRY, I SPEAK TO MONA FAWAZ A PROFESSOR AT THE AMERICAN UNIVERSITY OF BEIRUT.

>>> PLUS.

>> NOBODY CAN DENY THE IMPACT OF CLIMATE IMPACT ANYMORE.

>> HURRICANE HELENE IS SWEEPING AWAY HOMES AND KILLING HUNDREDS OF AMERICANS.

BUT IS EITHER CANDIDATE FOR PRESIDENT TAKING THE CLIMATE CRISIS SERIOUSLY ENOUGH?

WE DISCUSS WITH CLIMATE POLICY EXPERT LEAH STOKES AND FORMER SOUTH CAROLINA CONGRESSMAN BOB INGLIS.

>>> ALSO AHEAD -- >> A SMALL NUMBER OF DETERMINED ARMED MEN CAN CONTROL AN ENORMOUS POPULATION.

>> PART TWO OF CHRISTIANE'S CONVERSATION WITH HOLLYWOOD A LISTER MERYL STREEP AND AFGHAN ACTIVISTS ABOUT THEIR FEET FOR WOMEN'S RIGHTS.

>>> PLUS -- >> I THOUGHT I WOULD START IT FRESH.

>> "REVENGE OF THE TIPPING POINT."

MALCOLM GLADWELL TELLS WALTER ISAACSON I DIDN'T SAY' REVISITING HIS BEST-SELLING BOOK TO MAKE SENSE OF THE CONTAGIONS OF THE MODERN WORLD.

♪♪ >>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

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THE SYLVIA A.

AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

MARK J. BLECHNER.

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SETON J. MELVIN.

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AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> AND A VERY WARM WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M PAULA NEWTON IN NEW YORK SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

LEBANON HAS BECOME A PLACE OF FEAR AND CHAOS AS ISRAEL CONTINUES TO ESCALATE IN THE SOUTH AND IN BEIRUT.

LATEST STRIKES ACCORDING TO AN ISRAELI OFFICIAL TARGETING A POTENTIAL SUCCESSOR TO HEZBOLLAH'S SLAIN LEADER HASSAN NASRALLAH, AND HEZBOLLAH IS ANSWERING BY SENDING PROJECTILES INTO ISRAEL, THOUGH WITH NO CASUALTIES REPORTED AT THIS POINT.

NOW, WITHIN LEBANON ABOUT A MILLION PEOPLE HAVE ALREADY FLED THEIR HOMES IN DESPERATION IS REACHING SUCH A FEVER PITCH THAT SOME PEOPLE ARE KROTSING INTO SYRIA.

ALL THIS AS THE WORLD AWAITS ISRAEL'S RESPONSE TO IRAN'S STRIKES ON TUESDAY AND ANY FURTHER ESCALATION.

NOW, FOR THOSE IN LEBANON, IT IS, OF COURSE, A TERRIFYING AND UNCERTAIN TIME AND UNFORTUNATELY ONE THAT IS ALL TOO FAMILIAR.

TO UNDERSTAND WHAT LIFE IS LIKE RIGHT NOW WE WANT TO GO STRAIGHT TO MONA FAWAZ, SHE IS A PROFESSOR AT THE AMERICAN UNIVERSITY OF BEIRUT AND WE THANK YOU FOR GIVING US YOUR INSIGHTS AS YOU CONTINUE TO LIVE THIS OUT HOUR BY HOUR.

THE ESCALATION OF THE WAR IN THE LAST COUPLE OF WEEKS HAS BEEN, OF COURSE, DEVASTATING, I MEAN, THINK ABOUT THIS, IT IS THE MOST INTENSE AERIAL CAMPAIGN OUTSIDE OF GAZA FOR TWO DECADES.

SO A LOGICAL QUESTION IS, HOW IS EVERYONE COPING?

I MEAN, WHAT DOES EVERY DAY LOOK LIKE RIGHT NOW?

>> HI, PAULA.

THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

REALLY, I MEAN, AS YOU'VE DESCRIBED IT, OUR DAYS ARE FILLED WITH ANGUISH.

THERE IS A LOT OF FEAR.

FEAR FOR OUR OWN SAFETY, FEAR FOR THE SAFETY OF OUR CHILDREN, FOR THEIR FUTURE.

WE'RE STRANDED.

AND IN YOUR EVERY DAY LIFE YOU'RE AFRAID TO GO TO THE SUPERMARKET BECAUSE YOU'RE WORRIED THAT THIS WILL SOMEHOW BECOME A TARGET.

JUST TO GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE, I HAVE A BROKEN FOOT.

I HAVE TO GO SEE THE DOCTOR.

I'M SCARED TO DEATH TO GO TO THE HOSPITAL BECAUSE IT BECOMES THE ICONIC TARGET OF THE ISRAELI ARMY IN THE LAST YEAR.

SO THERE IS A LOT OF ANGUISH, OUR LIVES ARE SUSPENDED AND WE TRY TO FILL OUR TIME DOING AS MUCH SOLIDARITY AS WE CAN, BUT THE TRUTH IS REALLY THERE'S A LOT OF FEAR AND THAT FEAR IS FOR A VERY GOOD REASON.

I MEAN, IF YOU LOOK AT JUST THE NUMBERS IN THE LAST WEEK WE'VE HAD ALMOST 2,000 PEOPLE DEAD.

THAT IS MORE THAN THE ENTIRE 2006 WAR ON LEBANON.

WE HAVE HAD 1 MILLION PERSONS DISPLACED, THAT IS ABOUT ONE IN FIVE LEBANESE OR SYRIAN REFUGEES IN LEBANON BECAUSE WE ARE A POPULATION OF 5 MILLION.

AND THEN THE DEMOLITION LEVELS ARE ALREADY REACHING THE LEVEL OF 2006.

SO THERE IS A LOT OF FEAR IN THE COUNTRY, PARTICULARLY BECAUSE IT COMES IN THE HEELS OF WHAT HAS JUST HAPPENED IN GAZA, WHICH WE CAN TALK ABOUT.

I MEAN, FOR ANYONE YOU ASK IN LEBANON TODAY WOULD TELL YOU THAT FOR THE LAST YEAR IF YOU HEARD ISRAELI POLITICIANS IN GENERAL PROMISE THEM THAT LEBANON OR BEIRUT IS GOING TO BECOME THE NEXT GAZA AND THEY'VE WATCHED ONE AFTER THE OTHER, THE HOSPITALS IN GAZA, THE HOMES, THE BUILDINGS, THE SCHOOLS BE DEMOLISHED AND THEY'VE SEEN THE WORLD'S GREATEST SUPER POWERS ACTUALLY DEFEND AND CONTINUE TO SEND WEAPONS TO ISRAEL.

SO WE ARE AFRAID THAT THE SAME THING IS HAPPENING HERE.

>> MONA, INDEED WE HAVE HEARD FROM PEOPLE ON THE STREET FROM OUR CORRESPONDENTS SPEAK TO PEOPLE AND THEY INVOKE GAZA WITH THAT SENSE OF PALPABLE FEAR.

YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE BEEN THROUGH TOUGH TIMES, YOU GREW UP DURING THE BEIRUT CIVIL WAR.

IN AN OPINION PIECE IN AUGUST YOU ACTUALLY MENTIONED THAT THEN YOU HAD THIS ACHING SENSE OF SILENCE SIGNALING IN YOUR WORDS A READINESS FOR THE NEXT ROUND OF VIOLENCE.

NOW, IN RECENT MONTHS, OF COURSE, THAT VIOLENCE PROBABLY EVEN YOU WOULD TELL ME IN RECENT DAYS IT HAS SEEPED BACK INTO EVERY DAY LIVES.

WHAT SIMILARITIES DO YOU SEE IN THE ESCALATION AND DO YOU THINK, THOUGH, THAT THIS IS GOING TO BE A WATERSHED, SOMETHING THAT NO ONE COULD HAVE IMAGINED WOULD HAPPEN IN 2024?

>> I'M REALLY AFRAID THAT'S THE CASE AND THAT'S WHAT EVERYONE IS SAYING AND THERE'S SO MANY SIGN POSTS FOR THIS.

I MEAN, THIS IS A COMBINATION OF WHAT ISRAEL CALLED IN 2006 THE HIYA DOCKET RIP, THE DOCTRINE IN WHICH THEY FLATTEN NEIGHBORHOODS AND DESTROY PEOPLE'S LIVES SO THAT PEOPLE GET UPSET WITH HEZBOLLAH AND BASICALLY THEY UNDERMINE THE PARTY'S CONTROL.

IT IS ON TOP OF THIS THE GAZA PLAYBOOK.

THAT'S NOT MY WORDS, THIS IS THE RECOGNITION OF THE HEAD OF THE U.N. POPULATION FUND TODAY AND MANY OTHER RESPONSIBLE INTERNATIONAL FIGURES THAT ARE POINTING TO THIS.

THIS IS BASICALLY A STATE THAT HAS GONE ROGUE AND THAT IT HAS A BELLIGERENT POSTURE AND IS EMBOLDENED BECAUSE IT HAS THE SUPPORT.

SO, YES, THAT SILENCE IS THE SILENCE OF DEEP FEAR.

AND, I MEAN, HONESTLY WE HAVE NEVER HAD A DAY OF PEACE SINCE REGION.

I AS SOMEONE WHO HAS LIVED HERE HAVE NEVER HAD A DAY OF PEACE BECAUSE WE HAVE THAT SENSE THAT THE WAR CAN ERUPT AT ANY POINT AND THAT BELLIGERENCE CAN COME YOUR WAY.

SO THAT SILENCE THAT WE'RE ACCUSTOMED TO LIVE WITH BECAUSE WE'RE AFRAID OF SOMETHING HAPPENING IS VERY MUCH NOW THE DOMINANT MOOD IN OUR CITY.

>> YEAH, I CAN HEAR IN WHAT YOU'RE SAYING THAT THERE IS THAT SENSE OF LITERALLY STANDING ON THE EDGE OF THE ABYSS AND GIVEN WHAT'S HAPPENED IN GAZA THE FEARS ARE REAL.

YOU ARE CRITICIZING OF COURSE ISRAELI POLICY, BUT TURNING TO THE LEBANESE GOVERNMENT NOW, YOU HAVE LONG DETAILED THE LACK OF GOVERNMENT RESPONSE THROUGH SO MANY CRISES IN LEBANON.

YOU KNOW, I LOOKED AT YOUR SOCIAL MEDIA FEED IN A GREAT WAY YOU'VE BEEN HIGHLIGHTING SOCIAL MEDIA, THE GRASSROOTS VOLUNTEERS THERE, EVERY HOUR THEY CONTINUE TO DO THE MOST TO HELP THE MOST VULNERABLE, BUT THAT IS IN THE ABSENCE OF SO MUCH GOVERNMENT WORK THAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN.

THIS WEEK THE LEBANESE FOREIGN MINISTER WAS ASKED ON THIS SHOW ABOUT THE POWER AND PRESENCE OF HIS GOVERNMENT.

HIS RESPONSE, THE DECISION OF WAR WAS NOT OURS TO TAKE.

IS THAT AN ACCEPTABLE RESPONSE AS FAR AS YOU'RE CONCERNED, GIVEN THE DECADES OF HISTORY HERE?

>> I MEAN, LOOK, YEAH, I WOULD AGREE DEFINITELY THAT WE DID NOT MAKE THE DECISION TO START TO WAR.

WE DID NOT MAKE THE DECISION TO ESTABLISH A SUPREMACIST STATE IN THIS REGION AND TO BASICALLY HAVE ISRAEL ALSO HAVE THAT DISPOSITION OF A RACIST BULLY THAT DOES NOT WANT TO LIVE WITH ITS NEIGHBORS.

I MEAN, THERE ARE SO MANY WAYS IN WHICH SOMEONE CAN IMAGINE THAT PEOPLE FROM THIS REGION CAN LIVE TOGETHER AS EQUALS BUT WE HAVE A BULLY WHO HAS NOT WANTED FOR ONE DAY TO LIVE WITH ITS NEIGHBORS IN PEACE.

SO THIS MEANS THAT BASICALLY WE DON'T CHOOSE WAR AND PEACE.

THAT DOESN'T FORGIVE THE LEBANESE GOVERNMENT OF COURSE -- NOT THIS GOVERNMENT, BUT ALL THE SUCCESSIVE GOVERNMENTS SINCE THE END OF THE CIVIL WAR FROM HAVING CONTINUED A POLICY OF NEGLECTING ALL THE ASPECTS OF BUILDING STATE INSTITUTIONS.

OF COURSE WE ARE STILL TODAY RUN BY WAR LORDS AND THEIR ALLIES WHO BANKRUPTED THE COUNTRY.

SO I WILL NOT FORGIVE THEM.

I HAVE ACTUALLY TRIED ALL MY LIFE TO BE AN ACTIVIST AND BUILD AN ALTERNATIVE AND I HAVE TO SHOUT OUT FOR EVERYONE IN MY SOCIETY RIGHT NOW THAT HAS TURNED THEIR LIVES AROUND TO SUPPORT PEOPLE -- >> AND THEY ARE INDEED STEPPING UP.

I DO HAVE TO ASK YOU, THOUGH, IT IS AN INCREDIBLE SALIENT POINT.

HEZBOLLAH HAS REALLY FILLED THE POLITICAL VACUUM NOW FOR SO MANY DECADES.

ON OCTOBER 8th, A DAY AFTER OCTOBER 7th, THAT HORRIFIC ATTACK ON ISRAEL, HEZBOLLAH'S LATE LITER HASSAN NASRALLAH DECIDED TO JOIN THE CONFLICT AND IN SOLIDARITY WITH HAMAS HE -- YOU KNOW HOW HE ENGAGED IN TERMS OF ALL THE PROJECTILES, ALL THE ROCKETS THAT HAS LED TO AT LEAST 60,000 ISRAELIS HAVING TO ABANDON THEIR OWN HOMES.

THEY HAVE NOT RETURNED.

DO YOU BLAME HASSAN NASRALLAH THAT THE SITUATION THAT LEBANON FINDS ITSELF IN NOW?

>> LOOK, I HAVE SAID IT ALREADY, WE HAVE NEVER HAD A DAY OF PEACE.

HEZBOLLAH STARTED IN 1983, '84.

MY MOM, WHO WAS A FIVE-YEAR-OLD IN 1948, HAD TO RUN AWAY FROM HER SOUTH LEBANESE VILLAGE WITH PALESTINIANS BECAUSE THEY WERE UNDER ISRAELI FIRE.

AS LONG AS THE ISRAELI POSTURE IS ONE OF BULLYING AND NOT LIVING TOGETHER AS EQUALS IN THIS REGION, THEY ARE THE PARTY THAT NEEDS TO BE BLAMED AND THEIR ALLIES WHO ARE SENDING THEM NOW WEAPONS AND EMBOLDENING THEM TO NOT LIVE WITH US -- >> DOES THAT MEAN THAT YOU SUPPORT WHAT HEZBOLLAH DID ON THE DAY AFTER THAT SAVAGE ATTACK IN ISRAEL?

>> LOOK, I -- AGAIN, I KNOW I DON'T -- I DON'T THINK HEZBOLLAH HAS EVEN CREATED SOLIDARITY BETWEEN LEBANESE AND PALESTINIANS.

WHAT I REALLY -- I DON'T WANT TO SUPPORT ANY KIND OF WAR OR AGGRESSION, BUT I SERIOUSLY ASK THAT PEOPLE LOOK AT WHO IS THE AGGRESSOR IN THIS CASE AND THE AGGRESSOR IN THIS CASE BY AND FAR IN THE LAST 78 YEARS HAS NOT BEEN HEZBOLLAH.

THIS BORDER HAS BEEN HOT, I'VE LIVED IN THE 1982 INVASION OF ISRAEL FROM MY VILLAGE IN SOUTH LEBANON, I'VE SEEN THE SOLDIERS WALK ON US AT THAT TIME.

HONESTLY I THINK WE NEED TO WIDEN THE HISTORICAL SCOPE AND WORK TOWARDS DEESCALATION BY ASKING FOR A CEASEFIRE IMMEDIATELY.

BY STOPPING THE FLOW OF WEAPONS TO OUR COUNTRY.

>> MONA, I DON'T HAVE A LOT OF TIME LEFT AND, LORD KNOWS, YOU ARE LIKELY FATIGUED OF TRYING TO REALLY TUNE INTO THAT OPTIMISM THAT I KNOW YOU HAVE FOR LEBANON.

DO YOU SEE -- ESPECIALLY IN YOUR WORK AS AN URBAN PLANNER, AS A SCHOLAR -- A FUTURE FOR LEBANON THAT GETS BEYOND OUR CURRENT CRISIS?

A GOOD OPPORTUNITY HERE?

>> LOOK, WE HAVE AMAZING SKILLS IN THIS COUNTRY.

WE HAVE GREAT PEOPLE.

I LOOK AT MY STUDENTS WHO GRADUATE FROM THE AMERICAN UNIVERSITY OF BEIRUT, THEY GO ALL OVER THE WORLD.

THEY ARE BUILDING THE INFRASTRUCTURE OF THE ARAB GULF.

THEY ARE INVOLVED IN SO MANY GREAT INVENTIONS.

I HAVE NO DOUBT THAT WE HAVE THE CAPABILITY TO BUILD A GREAT COUNTRY.

WE HAVE TO BE ABLE TO DO IT, BUT WE NEED TO ONCE AND FOR ALL CREATE SOME KIND OF STABILITY AT THE REGIONAL LEVEL WITHOUT INVENTING THOSE NEW MIDDLE EAST WHICH EVERY TIME AN INITIATIVE COMES FROM ISRAEL AS IN 1982 OR MORE RECENTLY IN 2006 AND ENDS UP DESTROYING EVEN MORE THE BASIS OF OUR LEBANESE SOCIETY.

BUT I DEFINITELY HAVE HOPE THAT THE KIND OF STUDENTS THAT I SEE, THE KIND OF COLLEAGUES THAT I HAVE HAVE AN INCREDIBLE CAPABILITY TO BUILD A BETTER COUNTRY.

AND THEY DON'T WANT WAR.

NO ONE WANTS WAR HERE.

>> AND WE WILL CONTINUE TO CHECK IN WITH YOU, MONA FAWAZ.

STAY SAFE AS THE COUNTRY GOES THROUGH YET ANOTHER DIFFICULT TIME.

APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANKS, PAULA.

THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>>> NOW WE TURN TO THE UNITED STATES WHERE FLOODS AND DEVASTATION ARE SPREAD RIGHT ACROSS THE SOUTHEAST AFTER HURRICANE HELENE CARVED A PATH THROUGH MULTIPLE STATES.

MORE THAN 200 PEOPLE NOW HAVE BEEN KILLED IN THIS HISTORIC STORM.

HUNDREDS, THOUGH -- THINK ABOUT THAT -- STILL UNACCOUNTED FOR RIGHT ACROSS THE STATES.

PEOPLE FEEL THAT NO MATTER WHERE THEY ARE, THEY ARE NOT INDEED SAFE FROM THE RAVAGES OF EXTREME WEATHER AND CLIMATE CHANGE.

NOW, A QUICK REMINDER.

ALL THE SCIENCE SAYS THIS IS NOW THE BASELINE.

SO WHILE EFFORTS TO REDUCE CARBON EMISSIONS RAMP UP ALL OF THOSE EFFORTS WE'VE BEEN OUTLINING ON THIS PROGRAM, SO, TOO, MUST EFFORTS TO ADAPT INFRASTRUCTURE MEET UP THIS NEW REALITY AND THIS NEW MOMENT.

JOINING ME NOW TO TALK ABOUT ALL OF THIS IS LEAH STOKES, SHE IS A CLIMATE POLICY EXPERT AT THE UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA SANTA BARBARA, AND BOB INGLIS A FORMER CONGRESSMAN FROM SOUTH CAROLINA, ONE OF THE STATES THAT HAS ALSO BEEN HIT BY THIS HISTORIC STORM.

I DO WANT TO GET TO THIS STORM THAT HAS JUST THROWN EVERYONE IN THE UNITED STATES -- EVEN THOSE WHO FELT THEY WERE PREPARED.

LEAH, HOW MIGHT HURRICANE HELENE CHANGE THE WAY VOTERS, AMERICANS, UNDERSTAND CLIMATE AND HOW IT WILL IMPACT THEM?

>> YEAH, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

YOU KNOW, I KNOW PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN THIS REGION WHO HAVE BEEN TALKING TO ME AND THEY'VE ASKED ME TO SPEAK UP ABOUT THE LINKS BETWEEN THIS DEVASTATING HURRICANE AND CLIMATE CHANGE.

YOU KNOW, THE CLIMATE SCIENTISTS HAVE DONE THESE RAPID STUDIES AND THEY SHOW THAT IT'S 20 TIMES MORE LIKELY TO HAVE AN EVENT LIKE THIS BECAUSE OF CLIMATE CHANGE.

THE FLOODING THAT WE SAW IN WESTERN NORTH CAROLINA AND PLACES LIKE ASHEVILLE AND LOTS OF SMALLER TOWNS WAS HUGE.

WE ARE TALKING A 1 IN 1,000-YEAR RAINFALL EVENT.

THE WATER JUST KEPT COMING AND COMING.

IT INUNDATED THE WATER TREATMENT PLANT.

PEOPLE HAVE NO WATER.

ENTIRE COMMUNITIES ARE GONE IN WESTERN NORTH CAROLINA.

AND THIS IS BECAUSE OF CLIMATE CHANGE.

AND WE HAVE ONE CANDIDATE RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT, DONALD TRUMP, WHO SAID IN THE WAKE OF THIS DISASTER THAT THE PEOPLE IN WESTERN NORTH CAROLINA WILL BE OKAY AND THAT CLIMATE CHANGE WAS A SCAM.

THIS IS TERRIBLE.

THIS IS CLIMATE CHANGE IN ACTION AND WE DESERVE LEADERS WHO TAKE THIS CRISIS SERIOUSLY.

AND SO IT WILL BE VERY INTERESTING TO SEE HOW THE ELECTION GOES IN NORTH CAROLINA BECAUSE NORTH CAROLINA IS, OF COURSE, A SWING STATE AND THE -- YOU KNOW, THE POLLS ARE VERY CLOSE RIGHT NOW.

MY HEART REALLY GOES OUT TO EVERYBODY WHO IS AFFECTED BY THIS DISASTER.

THE STORIES THAT I'VE BEEN HEARING FROM DIRECT COLLEAGUES AND FRIENDS LIVING IN THE REGION ARE TERRIFYING AND REALLY DEVASTATING.

AND WE DESERVE A GOVERNMENT WHO TAKES THIS CRISIS SERIOUSLY AND THAT'S WHY I THINK, YOU KNOW, A LOT OF PEOPLE MIGHT BE TURNING TOWARDS KAMALA HARRIS AND TIM WALZ BECAUSE THEY ARE ON TV SAYING THE CLIMATE CRISIS IS REAL.

THEY'RE NOT OUT THERE SAYING THEY ARE NOT SURE IF CARBON EMISSIONS ARE LINKED TO CLIMATE CHANGE AS, FOR EXAMPLE, J.D.

VANCE DID DURING THE VP DEBATE.

>> BOB, YOU HAVE BEEN ON THE FRONT LINES WITH YOUR REPUBLICAN PARTY SAYING IT IS INDEED REAL.

YOU'VE DONE A BIT OF MEA CULPA ON THIS AND HAVE BEEN WORKING FOR YEARS TO CONVINCE PEOPLE THAT THIS MATTERS.

WHEN YOU LOOKED AT THE EFFECTS OF THE STORM OVER THE LAST WEEK DID YOU THINK THAT THIS COULD, IN FACT, PERHAPS AFFECT THE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION?

MAYBE A MORE IMPORTANT QUESTION IS DO YOU BELIEVE IT SHOULD?

>> I THINK, YOU KNOW, EXPERIENCE IS AN EFFECTIVE TEACHER.

IT'S OFTEN A VERY HARSH TEACHER.

SO WE'RE BEING TAUGHT VERY HARSHLY ABOUT CLIMATE CHANGE, BUT IT HAS A WAY OF GETTING THROUGH AND IT COULD WELL HAVE AN IMPACT ON THE ELECTION.

YOU KNOW, I LIVE IN UPSTATE SOUTH CAROLINA, I'M JOINING YOU NOW FROM UTAH AT JOHN CURTIS' CONSERVATIVE CLIMATE SUMMIT, BUT THERE'S NO POWER AT MY HOUSE.

WE HAVE TWO DAUGHTERS THAT LIVE IN ASHEVILLE, NORTH CAROLINA, SO THEY HAD TO DECAMP TO OUR HOUSE IN SOUTH CAROLINA, BUT I HAVE A SON-IN-LAW THAT'S GOING UP TODAY AGAIN, YESTERDAY HE WAS UP THERE IN A BUCKET BRIGADE TO DIP WATER OUT OF SWIMMING POOLS TO TAKE TO THE PUBLIC HOUSING COMPLEX TO FLUSH TOILETS.

THEY WERE ABLE TO FLUSH ABOUT 600 TOILETS YESTERDAY.

MY DAUGHTER IS UP THERE HANDING OUT FOOD IN ONE OF THE VERY RAVAGED COMMUNITIES.

THESE PLACES ARE ABSOLUTELY DEVASTATED.

SO TO CALL IT A HOAX, THAT SHOULDN'T GO DOWN VERY WELL RIGHT NOW IN WHEN NORTH CAROLINA BECAUSE I THINK EVERYBODY THERE REALIZES THIS STORM CAME OVER VERY HOT WATER IN THE GULF OF MEXICO, GATHERED UP IN ITS CLOUDS A GREAT DEAL OF MOISTURE, AND THEN BECAUSE OF THAT WARM WATER IN THE GULF, ACCELERATED TOWARD FLORIDA, HIT THERE, BUT THEN CARRIED THAT WATER WAY INLAND TO A PLACE LIKE ASHEVILLE, NORTH CAROLINA, AND THEN DUMPED IT.

AND SO I THINK THIS SENSE OF VULNERABILITY IS REAL RIGHT NOW ACROSS THE SOUTHEAST AND ESPECIALLY IN PLACES LIKE WESTERN NORTH CAROLINA.

>> AND IT IS VERY REAL AS I HEAR YOU, BOB, FOR YOU AND YOUR FAMILY.

AND YET DO YOU BELIEVE THIS SHOULD BE A POLITICAL ISSUE AND RIGHT NOW, WHAT'S IN PLACE RIGHT NOW?

HAS THE GOVERNMENT RESPONSE BEEN EFFECTIVE?

YOU HAVE JUST OUTLINED HOW BASICALLY YOUR FAMILY IS IN SOME WAY, SHAPE OR FORM FENDING FOR ITSELF AND TRYING TO HELP OTHERS IN THE COMMUNITY WHO HAVE NOT HAD THE HELP THEY NEED.

>> YEAH, WELL, I THINK AS WE WERE JUST HEARING, IT IS THIS PROBLEM OF THE INFRASTRUCTURE.

YOU KNOW, WE'VE GOT TO HARDEN THE INFRASTRUCTURE, BUT WHO WOULD HAVE THOUGHT BEFORE THIS THAT THE FRENCH BROAD RIVER WOULD BE 25 FEET HIGHER THAN EXPECTED?

SO THAT WATER TREATMENT FACILITY, WELL, IT'S GOING TO HAVE TO BE HARDENED.

SO ENORMOUS EFFORT IS GOING TO HAVE TO BE UNDERTAKEN IN THIS COUNTRY TO GET READY FOR THIS REALITY.

AND WE ARE LIVING IN CLIMATE CHANGE.

YOU KNOW, WHEN I WAS GETTING TOSSED OUT OF CONGRESS BACK IN 2010 FOR SAYING CLIMATE CHANGE IS REAL IT WAS BASICALLY AGGRESSIVE DISBELIEF, I DON'T BELIEVE IN CLIMATE CHANGE AND YOU SHOULDN'T, EITHER.

NOW AS MY FRIEND CATHERINE HAHEW LIKES TO SAY PEOPLE HAVE STOPPED ARGUING WITH THERMOMETERS SO MUCH AND FOLKS WILL ARGUE ABOUT THE RAINFALL POSSIBILITIES NOW.

SO IT'S VERY REAL.

BUT THERE IS MOVEMENT.

THAT'S THE GOOD NEWS IS THERE IS MOVEMENT.

IT'S SLOWER THAN SHOULD BE, BUT -- FOR EXAMPLE, I'M HERE IN UTAH WHERE JOHN CURTIS IS DOING THIS -- REPRESENTATIVE JOHN CURTIS, LIKELY TO BE SENATOR JOHN CURTIS IS DOING THIS CONSERVATIVE CLIMATE SUMMIT AND ALL FIVE OF HIS REPLACEMENT PARTS, THE PEOPLE THAT ARE RUNNING FOR HIS HOUSE SEAT, ALL FIVE OF THEM AGREED THAT THEY WOULD JOIN THE THING THAT HE STARTED IN THE HOUSE, THE CONSERVATIVE CLIMATE CAUCUS.

THAT'S REMARKABLE CHANGE THAN WHAT I WAS EXPERIENCING IN 2010 >> I HEAR YOU THAT IT IS REMARKABLE CHANGE BUT IN TERMS OF HARDENING THE INFRASTRUCTURE WHAT MORE HAS TO BE DONE HERE?

I MEAN, BOTH CANDIDATES, BOTH TRUMP AND VP HARRIS HAVE BEEN AT LEAST TO GEORGIA, SURVEYING WHAT'S GONE ON THERE AND THE DEVASTATION.

I WANT YOU TO HEAR NOW, THOUGH, FROM VP HARRIS FROM HER TOUR.

>> WE ARE HERE FOR THE LONG HAUL.

THERE IS THE WORK THAT WE HAVE DONE TOGETHER THAT WAS THE IMMEDIATE RESPONSE.

WELL, PREPARATION FOR AND THEN THE IMMEDIATE RESPONSE AFTER, BUT THERE'S A LOT THAT WORK THAT'S GOING TO NEED TO HAPPEN OVER THE COMING DAYS, WEEKS AND MONTHS.

>> YOU KNOW, HARRIS SPEAKS THERE OF HAVING TO BE THERE FOR THE LONG HAUL, BUT, LEAH, CAN PEOPLE IMPACTED BY STORMS LIKE THIS, ESSENTIALLY IT'S BEEN A SLAP IN THE FACE FOR THEM, IS THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT REALLY EQUIPPED FOR THIS, ESPECIALLY IF WE STILL DO NOT HAVE THE CROSS PARTISAN SUPPORT THAT REALLY IS NEEDED ON ALL LEVELS?

>> WELL, WHAT'S SO INTERESTING IS THAT WE ACTUALLY ARE HAVING BIPARTISAN COOPERATION IN THE DEVASTATION OF THIS STORM.

WE HAVE GOVERNORS ALL THROUGHOUT THE REGION THAT ARE BOTH REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS SAYING THAT THEY ARE PARTNERING WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, WITH THE BIDEN/HARRIS ADMINISTRATION AND THAT THEY ARE GETTING THE HELP THAT THEY NEED.

THAT IS HAPPENING FROM REPUBLICAN GOVERNORS IN SOUTH CAROLINA AND GEORGIA AND DEMOCRATIC GOVERNORS IN NORTH CAROLINA.

AND SO, YOU KNOW, THIS IS SOMETHING THAT WE CAN SEE BIPARTISAN COOPERATION OVER.

AND I THINK THAT'S SO IMPORTANT BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE ARE TAKING THIS DEVASTATING DISASTER -- AND MY HEART REALLY GOES OUT TO BOB INGLIS WHO IS A WONDERFUL PERSON AND I FEEL BADLY FOR HIS FAMILY AND I REALLY VALUE THAT HE IS A REPUBLICAN OUT THERE SPEAKING ABOUT THE LINKS BETWEEN CLIMATE CHANGE AND A DISASTER LIKE HURRICANE HELENE.

YOU KNOW, WE HAVE GOOD PEOPLE IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY WILLING TO SPEAK UP, BUT THE FACT IS THAT DONALD TRUMP IS NOT ONE OF THEM.

DONALD TRUMP IS SAYING THAT CLIMATE CHANGE IS A SCAM IN THE WAKE OF THIS DISASTER.

HE IS SAYING THAT CLIMATE CHANGE IS A HOAX.

HE IS SAYING THINGS LIKE THESE PEOPLE WILL JUST BE OKAY.

AND I WANT TO REMIND PEOPLE THAT THERE WAS REPORTING JUST YESTERDAY THAT DONALD TRUMP WHEN THERE WERE WILDFIRES IN CALIFORNIA WITHHELD FEDERAL AID TO PEOPLE SUFFERING FROM A CLIMATE DISASTER BECAUSE HE DIDN'T THINK THEY WERE VOTING FOR HIM ENOUGH.

AND IT WAS ONLY WHEN SOMEBODY SHOWED HIM THAT ACTUALLY THERE WERE LOTS OF REPUBLICANS IN ORANGE COUNTY, CALIFORNIA, THAT HE DECIDED THAT THEY SHOULD SEND FEDERAL AID.

WE CAN'T HAVE A PRESIDENT DECIDING WHO DESERVES HELP.

EVERY AMERICAN DESERVES HELP IN THE WAKE OF A DISASTER WHETHER IT'S CAUSED BY CLIMATE CHANGE OR ANYTHING ELSE.

>> IN FACT, DONALD TRUMP, WHETHER IT WAS WHAT HAPPENED IN HURRICANE MARIA IN PUERTO RICO IN 2019, HE WENT THERE AND HE VISITED BUT IT SEEMED TO TAKE HIM A WHILE TO GRASP THE MAGNITUDE AND THE FEDERAL HELP THAT WAS NEEDED.

IN 2019 HE ALSO SAID THAT IN TERMS OF AUTHORIZATION AND TRYING TO GET FEMA COME UP WITH 100% OF THE FUNDS THAT WERE NEEDED TO RECOVER FROM HURRICANE MICHAEL, HE APPARENTLY ACTUALLY SAID THEY LOVE ME IN THE PANHANDLE.

THAT IS ACCORDING TO THE STATE'S GOVERNOR AND THAT'S WHY HE PILED IN.

BOB, SO I HAVE TO ASK YOU THERE IS A VERY REAL CHANCE THAT DONALD TRUMP COULD BE THE NEXT PRESIDENT AS WELL.

DO YOU BELIEVE POLITICS HAS SHIFTED ENOUGH AT THIS POINT OR IS THIS A BOTH SIDES ARE TO BLAME KIND OF SITUATION THAT TRUMP WILL POINT TO?

>> WELL, I CERTAINLY HOPE THAT HE IS NOT ELECTED.

THAT'S WHY I'M VOTING FOR KAMALA HARRIS.

I'M A REPUBLICAN WHO WILL BE VOTING FOR KAMALA HARRIS BECAUSE OF THE THINGS THAT LEAH HAS JUST SAID.

SO IF HE GETS ELECTED IT REALLY IS -- IT'S GOING TO BE A REALITY THAT HE'S GOING TO HAVE TO DEAL WITH THE CLEANUP, THE FIX UP OF ALL OF THESE SYSTEMS BECAUSE WE'RE TALKING ENORMOUS SUMS OF MONEY.

LEAH CAN TELL US ABOUT THE STUDIES ABOUT, YOU KNOW, JUST HOW WE TOO OFTEN TALK ABOUT, OH, IT'S GOING TO COST SO MUCH TO INVENT NEW ENERGY.

WELL, NO.

NO.

IT'S COSTING AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT TO CONTINUE WITH THE DIRTY STUFF.

THAT'S WHERE THE COST IS.

AND SO WHEN YOU FACTOR THAT IN, PAY ME NOW OR PAY ME LATER.

SO WHAT WE'RE DOING NOW IS PAYING LATER BASICALLY IN WESTERN NORTH CAROLINA AND WE'RE GOING TO PAY A LOT.

THE AMERICAN TAXPAYER IS GOING TO PAY A LOT FOR THE CLIMATE DAMAGE THAT'S JUST HAPPENED THERE.

AND SO IF YOU COUNT ALL THESE STORMS AND WILDFIRES AND THESE THINGS, THAT NEEDS TO GO IN THE ECONOMIC ANALYSIS AND IT HAS WITH GREAT WORK THAT PEOPLE LIKE LEAH HAVE DONE.

IT'S THERE, IT'S JUST NOW WE NEED PEOPLE TO PAY ATTENTION TO IT.

OUR POLICY -- ELECTED OFFICIALS, PARTICULARLY IN MY PARTY, THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, TO HAVE SOME COURAGE AND DEPART FROM DONALD TRUMP'S HOAXER-ISM.

>> BOB INGLIS, WE WISH THE BEST TO YOU AND YOUR FAMILY AND LEAH STOKES, WE WILL CONTINUE TO CHECK IN WITH YOUR RESEARCH ON WHAT MUST BE A CROSS PARTISAN ISSUE.

>>> NOW WITH WOMEN'S RIGHTS SERVING AS A KEY TOPIC IN THE UPCOMING PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION WE TURN OUR ATTENTION TO AFGHANISTAN ONCE AGAIN WHERE AS MERYL STREEP SAID AT THE U.N. GENERAL ASSEMBLY A FEMALE CAT HAS MORE FREEDOM THAN A WOMAN THERE.

CHRISTIANE SAT DOWN WITH THE ACTOR ALONGSIDE FAWSIA KUFI AND HABIBA SARABI TO DISCUSS A NEW DOCUMENTARY CALLED "THE HARP EDGE OF PEACE" WHICH FOLLOWS THE DOOMED EFFORTS OF PEACE TALKS WITH THE TALIBAN BACK IN 2020.

LET'S TAKE A LISTEN TO THE SECOND HALF OF THEIR CONVERSATION.

>> I THINK THAT SOCIETIES THAT DOOM THEIR WOMEN, THAT SUPPRESS THEIR WOMEN, ARE THE LEAST SUCCESSFUL ECONOMICALLY AND I KNOW MONEY IS IMPORTANT TO EVERYONE.

IT'S ALMOST LIKE FOLLOW THE MONEY.

>> YOU WORK WITH JESSICA, WITH MARGOT WALLSTRÖM, YOU WALL WORK TOGETHER AND ONE OF YOUR ISSUES IS DO NOT ENGAGE WITH THE TALIBAN BECAUSE IF YOU ENGAGE THEN THEY HAVE NO INCENTIVE TO CHANGE.

WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT IT AND YOU GUYS AS WELL, AFTER NEARLY TWO, THREE YEARS OF THIS, NO ENGAGEMENT WITH THE TALIBAN HAS MADE IT WORSE, NOT BETTER.

DO YOU THINK ABOUT THAT?

>> I THINK ABOUT IT.

I CAN'T SPEAK FOR THE GROUP.

>> YEAH.

>> BUT JUST AS A MOTHER AND A GRANDMOTHER, I DON'T THINK ANYTHING GETS SOLVED BY SHUTTING PEOPLE OUT OF THE ROOM.

I THINK YOU HAVE TO ENGAGE SOMEHOW.

AND WHETHER IT'S -- IT'S WITH THE COMPULSION OF FINANCIAL HARDSHIP OR -- YOU KNOW, IT'S VERY IMPORTANT THAT WE NOT NEGLECT THE AFGHAN WOMEN RIGHT NOW IN WORKING TOWARDS AN EVENTUAL SOLUTION.

SO THE FRONT LINE WOMEN'S ORGANIZATION IS SOMETHING THAT IS HELPING GET MONEY TO THE WOMEN DIRECTLY SO THAT IT'S NOT DIVERTED OFF INTO TALIBAN HANDS.

>> AS A POLITICIAN, A FORMER MP, WHAT'S YOUR ASSESSMENT OF THE -- OF THE ATTEMPT TO GET -- FORCE CHANGE, I MEAN, THEY ARE NOT INVITED TO THE U.N., NO COUNTRY RECOGNIZES THE TALIBAN, BUT THEY'RE STILL THERE AND THEY'RE STILL, YOU KNOW, ISSUING THE MOST UNBELIEVABLE EDICTS AS WE TALKED AT THE BEGINNING.

THE LATEST IS YOU CAN'T RAISE YOUR VOICE OR SPEAK IN PUBLIC.

DID YOU THINK THAT IT WOULD GET THIS BAD?

>> AS THE TALIBAN PROMISED, NO, BECAUSE THEY HAVE PUBLICLY SAID ON THE RECORD THAT THEY WANT WOMEN BEFORE THE NEGOTIATION, THROUGHOUT THE NEGOTIATION AND THIS WAS A NARRATIVE ALSO PROMOTED BY SOME DIPLOMATS IN WASHINGTON, THE TALIBAN 2.0 AND THEY HAVE CHANGED AND BECOME MORE MODERATE.

I WANT TO SEE THEM.

I WANT TO KNOW WHERE THEY ARE.

I THINK YOU AND I TALKED WHEN THE WITHDRAWAL WAS ANNOUNCED IN 2021 WHEN I SAY IT'S A MORAL DEFEAT FOR THE AMERICANS TO LEAVE THE WAY IT IS.

NO COUNTRY WANTS A FOREIGN TROOP ON THEIR SOIL.

WE AS A FREEDOM-FIGHTING NATION WE NEVER WANTED THE U.S. TO STAY IN AFGHANISTAN FOREVER, BUT I THINK THE WAY THE WITHDRAWAL HAPPENED, I THINK IT WAS A FAILURE OF MORAL FROM THE U.S. FOREIGN POLICY ONE AFTER THE OTHER.

I'M NOT SAYING PRESIDENT TRUMP DID GOOD AND BIDEN DID NOT GOOD.

I THINK IT STARTED WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP AND CONTINUED WITH PRESIDENT BIDEN.

NOBODY ACTUALLY THOUGHT ABOUT US, THE PEOPLE OF AFGHANISTAN, AS THEIR ALLIES.

AND IT CONTINUES UNTIL NOW, CHRISTIANE.

I'M TELLING YOU THE WORLD IS ACTUALLY ENGAGED WITH TALIBAN DAY AND NIGHT, IF I'M NOT MISTAKEN THE FIGURES MAY BE AROUND 10,000 MEETINGS WITH THE TALIBAN, NOT AMERICANS, ALL INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY.

WHEN YOU ASK THEM WHERE IS WOMEN'S RIGHTS IN THIS DISCUSSION?

I THINK IN THE REGION WOMEN'S RIGHTS IS NUMBER SIX OR SEVEN PRIORITY.

FROM THE GLOBAL COMMUNITY, I'M NOT REALLY SURE, BECAUSE THE LAST MEETING IN DOHA IN JUNE THEY ACTUALLY EXCLUDED WOMEN AND EXCLUDED WOMEN'S RIGHTS FROM THE AGENDAS.

SO I THINK THE CONTINUED ENGAGEMENT WITH THE TALIBAN WITHOUT PRINCIPLES HAS ONLY EMBOLDENED THEM.

>> WE'RE GOING TO PLAY THIS CLIP ABOUT MUSLIMS ATTACKING YOUR OWN CIVILIANS.

[ SPEAKING IN A NON-ENGLISH LANGUAGE ] >>> WE WERE TALKING ABOUT ISLAMIC NATIONS.

THERE IS NO OTHER ISLAMIC NATION THAT BARS GIRLS FROM SCHOOL OR FROM WORK OR FROM -- OR FROM OTHER SUCH THINGS.

THIS IS THE ONLY ONE.

AND WE TALK A LOT ABOUT THE UNITED STATES, BUT WHY DO YOU THINK YOUR ISLAMIC BROTHERS AND SISTERS HAVE NOT COME TO YOUR RESCUE?

THE COUNTRIES IN THE REGION THAT HAVE LEVERAGE, THAT SURROUND YOUR COUNTRY, WHY DO YOU THINK THEY'VE LEFT YOU HANGING?

>> ACTUALLY, THIS IS OUR QUESTION.

THIS IS THE WOMEN OF AFGHANISTAN'S QUESTION THAT WHY OUR MUSLIM MAJORITY COUNTRY, OUR MUSLIM BROTHERS AND SISTERS, ARE NOT TAKING PART OR NOT BEING WITH US.

OF COURSE, THERE ARE SOME COUNTRIES, THERE ARE SOME FIGURES THAT THEY ARE SUPPORTING US.

THEY HAVE TO CREATE DEBATE WITH THE MUSLIM SCHOLAR THAT TO CHALLENGE TALIBAN OR WOMEN IN THE OTHER MUSLIM COUNTRIES ENJOYING FROM THEIR LIFE FROM THEIR BASIC RIGHTS WHICH IS NOT HAPPENING IN AFGHANISTAN.

>> IT APPEARS THAT THERE ARE TWO KINDS OF TALIBAN, THERE'S THE KABUL TALIBAN, THE HAKANI TALIBAN WHICH IS MUCH MORE SOPHISTICATED, I INTERVIEWED THE LEADER, HE SAID ALL THE RIGHT THINGS, AND THEN THERE'S THE SO-CALLED SUPREME LEADER IN KANDAHAR WHO HAS A MUCH MORE HARD LINE VIEW AND IS SURROUNDED BY A FEW PEOPLE WHO HAVE THAT KIND OF VIEW.

IS THERE ANY WAY, DO YOU THINK, TO RIP THAT APART, TO SEPARATE?

>> THAT'S SOMETHING THAT THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY, AGAIN, TRIED TO PORTRAY AND THAT'S WHAT WE HOPE AS WELL, HOWEVER, HOW MUCH TIME WE HAVE TO WAIT FOR THE TALIBAN TO, YOU KNOW, DIVIDE AND THEN ALLOW US TO GO TO SCHOOL, ALLOW WOMEN TO GO TO WORK.

IT'S BEEN THREE YEARS.

YES, WE HAVE LOST DEMOCRATIC INSTITUTIONS, BUT PEOPLE OF AFGHANISTAN DID NOT LOSE DEMOCRACY.

IF THIS COUNTRY LOSE MY FEAR IS THAT RADICALIZATION BECOMES A NEW NORM IN AFGHANISTAN BECAUSE NOW THEY HAVE CREATED 15,000 MADRASSAS ACROSS AFGHANISTAN, THEY HAVE RECRUITED 100,000 TEACHERS.

THE QUESTION IS WHERE DO THEY GET THAT MONEY?

IF WOMEN IN AFGHANISTAN, DIGNIFIED WOMEN HAVING Ph.D. AND MASTER'S DEGREE IS OFFERED $20 TO FEED HER CHILDREN BECAUSE SHE LOST HER HUSBAND IN THE WAR, IT'S HEART WRENCHING FOR ME, CHRISTIANE, TO SPEAK ABOUT ALL OF THIS AFTER 25 YEARS.

I GET EMOTIONAL BECAUSE HOW LONG AND WHY?

WE HAVE TO BE SACRIFICE OF ALL OF THIS.

AND IN FIVE YEARS' TIME WE WILL LOSE THE WHOLE GENERATION TO RADICALIZATION.

THAT EMBRACES -- >> YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT MORE POLITICAL VIOLENCE AND I KNOW THAT THAT'S ON YOUR MIND AS WELL.

>> WELL, I WAS JUST GOING TO SAY THAT ALL THIS MADRASSAS -- >> THESE ARE THE RELIGIOUS SCHOOLS.

>> YES, THEY TEACH YOUNG BOYS, THEY SEPARATE THEM FROM GIRLS, THEY DON'T KNOW HOW TO BE WITH GIRLS, THIS HE FEAR WOMEN AND GIRLS.

THIS LEADS TO A RISE, ONCE AGAIN, OF AL QAEDA, OF DAESH, OF ALL THE MISCHIEF MAKERS IN THE WORLD.

SO THERE'S A GLOBAL CONCERN ABOUT THIS DEVELOPMENT.

>> WHAT DO YOU THINK THE EFFECT ON THE WORLD IS, LET'S JUST SAY IN AFGHANISTAN, WATCHING THE POLITICAL SHENANIGANS IN THE UNITED STATES?

>> I FEEL THAT -- I CAN'T SPEAK FOR HOW OTHER PEOPLE VIEW US.

I JUST -- I JUST KNOW FROM MY OWN LIFE IN A SMALL TOWN IN CONNECTICUT, WE HAD TWO BAD ACTORS, TWO BAD GUYS WHO WERE SELLING DRUGS, THEY WERE BEATING UP WOMEN, THEY WERE -- AND EVERYBODY IN THE TOWN KNEW WHO THEY WERE, AND ONE PERSON GOT MURDERED AND EVERYBODY IN THE TOWN KNEW WHO DID IT, BUT -- BECAUSE THEY WERE AFRAID OF THIS GROUP.

BECAUSE THIS GROUP WAS VIOLENT.

THAT'S A SMALL NUMBER OF DETERMINED ARMED MEN CAN CONTROL AN ENORMOUS POPULATION.

ALL AROUND THE WORLD.

IT'S THE SAME STORY.

>> WHICH IS WHY I'M INTERESTED IN WHAT THE TALIBAN ARE DOING TO THE MEN NOW AND IT APPEARS THAT THE MEN ARE REBELLING IN A WAY, A LOT OF MEN ARE TRYING TO LEAVE.

I MEAN, TELL ME WHAT'S HAPPENING.

>> SO, YEAH, WE TALK ABOUT WOMEN'S RIGHTS BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY THIS IS A SEVERE HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATION OF OUR CENTURY WHAT'S HAPPENING TO THE WOMEN IN AFGHANISTAN BUT I MUST SAY THAT MEN ALSO DO NOT ENJOY A LUXURY LIFE.

IF YOUR DAUGHTER CANNOT GET OUT OF YOUR HOME, IF YOUR WIFE WHO WAS THE SUPPORTER CONTRIBUTED ECONOMICALLY CANNOT WORK, IF YOUR SISTER IS SUPPRESSED AND IF YOU DON'T HAVE A JOB, IF, YOU KNOW -- IN THE OFFICE YOU'RE BEING SUPERVISED BY SOMEBODY WHO IS NOT EVEN EDUCATED BUT HE IS A TALIB.

HOW DOES IT FEEL?

OBVIOUSLY A LOT OF PEOPLE EITHER MAKE A HARD CHOICE TO FIGHT BACK THE TALIBAN OR THEY LEAVE AFGHANISTAN AND THERE IS A BRAIN DRAIN.

I FEEL FOR MY COUNTRY BECAUSE WE HAVE INVESTED SO MUCH OF ENERGY TO BUILD THAT NATION AND I SEE ALL OF THESE EDUCATED, YOUNG MEN, ARE TAKING ENORMOUSLY DANGEROUS ROUTE TO GO TO EUROPE OR OTHER COUNTRIES, WHICH CAN ACTUALLY CONTRIBUTE TO A MIGRATION CRISIS AND THAT'S WHY WE NEED TO ACTUALLY HAVE A DIFFERENT APPROACH TO AFGHANISTAN, A MORE POLITICAL APPROACH RATHER THAN JUST HUMANITARIAN AID, RATHER THAN JUST PUBLISHING REPORT ABOUT HUMAN RIGHTS.

IF WE DO NOT CHANGE THE POLITICAL ECOSYSTEM, AND THIS IS A TIME, I THINK, IN THE UNITED STATES BECAUSE THEY WILL HAVE A NEW GOVERNMENT SOON, I THINK THEY WILL CONSULT THE AFGHAN WOMEN.

THEY SHOULD MAKE THEM PART OF THEIR PROCESS OF POLICY REVIEW.

LISTEN TO US BECAUSE WE KNOW WHAT'S GOOD FOR OUR COUNTRY.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH INDEED.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> NOW YOU CAN WATCH THE FULL INTERVIEW ONLINE ON OUR WEBSITE.

>>> NOW, FROM ENDING RACIAL SEGREGATION TO THE SPREAD OF PANDEMICS TECTONIC SHIFTS IN SOCIAL NORMS CAN OFTEN BE TRACED BACK TO MULTIPLE SMALL ACTIONS.

UNDERSTANDING THE HOW AND WHY OF THIS HAS BECOME THE LIFE'S WORK OF OUR NEXT GUEST.

25 YEARS NOW AFTER HIS GROUND-BREAKING PUBLICATION "THE TIPPING POINT," SOCIAL THINKER AND "NEW YORK TIMES" BEST SELLING AUTHOR MALCOLM GLADWELL SPEAKS WITH WALTER ISAACSON, REVISITING, IN FACT, THE SUBJECT IN HIS LATEST BOOK.

>> THANK YOU, PAULA.

MALCOLM GLADWELL, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> THANK YOU, WALTER.

>> YOUR BOOK "THE TIPPING POINT" WHICH CAME OUT ABOUT 25 YEARS AGO SPENT EIGHT YEARS ON THE BEST SELLER LIST.

I MEAN, THAT'S HUGE.

WHY DID YOU DECIDE TO REVISIT IT NOW?

>> WELL, IT WAS THE 25th ANNIVERSARY AND I THOUGHT -- WE THOUGHT IT WOULD BE FUN TO JUST DO A REVISED EDITION AND I WENT BACK AND I HADN'T READ IT IN 25 YEARS, AND I WENT BACK AND I READ IT AND I SAID, ACTUALLY, I THINK IT WOULD BE SILLY TO REVISE IT.

IT'S A TIME CAPSULE, YOU KNOW, IT WAS WRITTEN IN 1999.

IF I REALLY WANT TO REVISIT THIS I SHOULD WRITE A WHOLE NEW BOOK.

AND SO I REVERSED COURSE IN MIDSTREAM AND JUST STARTED FROM THE BEGINNING AGAIN.

>> YOU GOT ABOUT MIDSTREAM.

WAS THERE A TIPPING POINT, SO TO SPEAK, WHEN YOU SAID, WAIT, I HAVE TO DO A WHOLE NEW BOOK?

>> THERE WERE SO MANY THINGS I WANTED TO KIND OF -- I WANTED TO TALK ABOUT COVID, I WANTED TO TALK ABOUT THE OPIOID EPIDEMIC, I WANTED TO TALK ABOUT -- I WAS -- YOU KNOW, I HAD MY ONGOING OBSESSION WITH -- WITH ELITE SCHOOLS.

I SORT OF MADE A LIST OF ALL THE THINGS THAT I WANTED TO TALK ABOUT AND I REALIZED THERE WAS NONE OF THE ORIGINAL BOOK LEFT.

THAT WAS -- I THINK THE CRUCIAL POINT WAS THE OPIOID STUFF.

I REALLY, REALLY, REALLY DID WANT TO TRY TO -- THE BOOK BEGINS AND ENDS WITH THE OPIOID CRISIS AND THAT WAS THE THING THAT GOT ME STARTED AND I HAD A LOT I WANTED TO SAY ABOUT THAT AND I COULDN'T FIND A WAY TO FIT IT INTO THE ARCHITECTURE OF THE OLD BOOK SO I THOUGHT I WOULD START FRESH.

>> I TALK ABOUT THE OPIOID CRISIS AND OF COURSE THE COVID EPIDEMIC AND THE FRAMING DEVICE FOR THE WHOLE CONCEPT OF A TIPPING POINT BOTH IN YOUR ORIGINAL BOOK AND NOW IS THAT SOMETIMES SOCIAL MOVEMENTS OR IDEAS BECOME A TIPPING POINT LIKE AN EPIDEMIC, AS IF A VIRUS ATTACKS AND THEY SPREAD VIRAL VIRALLY.

HOW DID THAT APPLY TO OPIOID AND COVID.

>> COVID IS SUPER INTERESTING BECAUSE ONE OF THE THINGS WE DID NOT REALIZE UNTIL VERY LATE IN THE PANDEMIC WAS THAT THE COVID PANDEMIC HAD A -- A FEATURE THAT IS OFTEN DISTINCTIVE OF EPIDEMICS, WHICH IS THAT IT WAS PROFOUNDLY ASYMMETRICAL, IT WAS BEING SPREAD BY A VERY SMALL NUMBER OF PEOPLE.

SO WE HAD THIS ASSUMPTION GOING IN THAT EVERYONE WHO WAS INFECTED WITH COVID POSED SOME RISK TO OTHERS AND THAT IT SPREAD SORT OF FROM PERSON TO PERSON TO PERSON TO PERSON.

AND THEN WHAT WE BEGAN TO UNDERSTAND NEAR THE END OF THE PANDEMIC WAS THAT SORT OF A VERY SMALL FRACTION OF INDIVIDUALS 5%, 5% PROBABLY AT MOST FOR SOME REASON WE DON'T ENTIRELY UNDERSTAND, SOMETHING TO DO WITH THEIR GENETIC MAKEUP WERE PRODUCING HUNDREDS IF NOT THOUSANDS MORE VIRAL PARTICLES OR EXHALING THEM IN THEIR BREATH AND IN THEIR SPEECH THAN EVERYBODY ELSE AND THAT THOSE PEOPLE WERE PROBABLY THE ONES WHO WERE DOING THE MAJORITY OF THE DAMAGE IN THE PANDEMIC.

>> THAT IDEA OF A SUPERSPREADER TAKES ME BACK TO THE ORIGINAL BOOK BECAUSE SOMETIMES YOU TALK ABOUT PEOPLE WHO ARE THE SUPERSPREADERS OF IDEAS, THAT SMALL PERCENTAGE.

>> YEAH, SO THAT BECOMES -- I TALKED ABOUT THAT IN THE ORIGINAL BOOK, BUT THE IDEA THAT SUPERSPREADER BECOMES A VERY BIG PART OF THIS BOOK BECAUSE IT'S ALSO WHAT MAKES -- HELPS US MAKE SENSE OF THE OPIOID CRISIS.

THAT WHEN YOU -- STAGE ONE OF THE OPIOID CRISIS WAS DRIVEN BY DOCTORS PRESCRIBING OXYCONTIN AND THE QUESTION WAS, YOU KNOW, HOW DO WE MAKE SENSE THAT HAVE BEHAVIOR?

WAS THIS EVIDENCE OF SOME KIND OF FUNDAMENTAL FAILING OF THE MEDICAL PROFESSION?

AND WHEN YOU LOOK CLOSELY AT HOW PURDUE FOMENTED THE SPREAD OF OXYCONTIN YOU REALIZE THEY WEREN'T RELYING ON A FLAW IN THE MEDICAL PROFESSION.

THEY WEREN'T EVEN RELYING ON THE EFFORTS OF THE MAJORITY OF DOCTORS.

WHAT THEY WERE DOING WAS EXPLOITING A VERY, VERY TINY NUMBER OF HIGHLY PROBLEMATIC, HIGHLY SUSCEPTIBLE DOCTORS WHO THEY REALIZE THEY ONLY NEEDED A COUPLE THOUSAND DOCTORS TO START A NATIONAL EPIDEMIC AROUND OXYCONTIN.

THERE WAS ONE DOCTOR WHO -- THERE WERE DOCTORS -- ONE DOCTOR WHO COULD BE CONVINCED TO PRESCRIBE THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF PILLS OF OXYCONTIN WAS SUFFICIENT.

YOU DIDN'T NEED TO CONVINCE 100 TO PRESCRIBE IT TEN TIMES.

RIGHT?

THEN THERE WAS THIS EXACT SAME PRINCIPLE THAT DROVE THE COVID PANDEMIC, WAS BEING DRIVEN BY THE SPIRIT OF SMALL CORE.

IF YOU WANT TO UNDERSTAND WHY THE OXYCONTIN SPREAD AS QUICKLY AS IT DID, YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THE BEHAVIORS OF A VERY SELECTIVE GROUP OF DOCTORS WHO WERE DELIBERATELY TARGETED BY PURDUE.

>> YET WHEN YOU FRAME THESE THINGS AS EPIDEMICS, THERE SEEMS TO BE A MAJOR DISTINCTION TO ME AT LEAST BETWEEN OPIOIDS AND, SAY, COVID.

COVID IS AN EPIDEMIC THAT HITS US FROM THE OUTSIDE, A VIRUS COMES AND GETS US.

OPIOID IS SOMETHING WE DID TO OURSELVES.

WHY DO YOU MUSH THOSE TWO TOGETHER?

I KNOW AT THE END YOU SAY WE HAVE TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE IDEAS AND THEMES THAT SURROUND US.

SO TO WHAT EXTENT IS THIS TIPPING POINT IDEA, THIS EPIDEMIC IDEA, ONE IN WHICH WE HAVE POWER TO CONTROL?

>> I THINK WE HAVE POWER TO CONTROL -- I MEAN, WHAT LINKS THOSE TWO EXAMPLES, ONE IS OBVIOUSLY A BIOLOGICAL PHENOMENON, THE OTHER IS A BEHAVIORAL PHENOMENON, BUT THEY -- FIRST OF ALL, THEY RESEMBLE EACH OTHER IN THE PATTERN OF THEIR -- OF THE PHENOMENON.

IN OTHER WORDS, THEY FOLLOW AN EPIDEMIC CURVE.

THESE ARE NOT PROBLEMS THAT ROSE SLOWLY AND STEADILY OVER TIME.

THEY EXPLODED AT A CERTAIN CRITICAL MOMENT IN EXACTLY THE WAY THAT NONLINEAR PHENOMENON LIKE EPIDEMICS DO.

SECONDLY THERE WAS THIS DYNAMIC OF ASYMMETRY WHICH IS A POWERFUL INDICATOR OF EPIDEMICS, THAT SMALL NUMBERS OF PEOPLE WERE MOVING THEM FORWARD, BUT THERE'S ALSO -- THERE IS A CONTAGIOUS ELEMENT IN BOTH.

YOU KNOW, IN ONE CASE IT'S CONTAGION THAT WE UNDERSTAND, BIOLOGICAL CONTAGION, BUT WITH OXYCONTIN THERE WAS A BEHAVIORAL CONTAGION THAT THIS WAS SOMETHING THAT SPREAD WITHIN COMMUNITIES WHERE THERE WAS, YOU KNOW, THE EXPOSURE TO SOMEONE WHO WAS AN OXYCONTIN USER, DRAMATICALLY INCREASED YOUR -- YOUR CHANCE OF BECOMING AN OXYCONTIN USER YOURSELF.

I THINK WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT OUR -- OUR BIOLOGICAL MODEL OF CONTAGION IS TOO NARROW.

THAT THIS IS -- THESE ARE PHENOMENON THAT APPLY VERY BROADLY TO BEHAVIORS.

>> YOU CALL IT THE "REVENGE OF THE TIPPING POINT."

WHY REVENGE?

>> BECAUSE I WAS STRUCK IN THE BOOK BY HOW OFTEN I THOUGHT INSTITUTIONS OR INDIVIDUALS WERE DELIBERATELY USING THE EPIDEMIC PRINCIPLES TO FURTHER THEIR OWN ENDS.

SO THAT PURDUE WOULD BE THE CLASSIC EXAMPLE, THAT'S WHY I SPEND SO MUCH TIME ON THAT CASE, BUT, YOU KNOW, I HAVE A CHAPTER ON HOWARD UNIVERSITY.

I THINK THAT ELITE UNIVERSITIES ARE PLAYING A SIMILAR -- IT'S NOT AS EGREGIOUS A GAME, BUT THEY'RE PLAYING A GAME AROUND -- THEY'RE USING EPIDEMIC RULES TO TRY AND MANAGE THEIR INSTITUTIONAL CULTURE.

SO HOW DO YOU -- IF YOU'RE SOMEONE WHO, YOU KNOW -- THAT CHAPTER IS ALL ABOUT THE WAY SPORTS ARE USED BY HARVARD AND SCHOOLS LIKE HARVARD.

ESSENTIALLY TO MAINTAIN A KIND OF CULTURE, UPPER MIDDLE CLASS PRIVILEGE CULTURE IN THEIR -- IN THEIR SCHOOL.

THE WAY HARVARD LOOKS AT A SCHOOL LIKE CAL TECH THAT HAS HAD DRAMATIC SHIFTS IN ETHNIC PROPORTIONS OVER THE LAST 25 YEARS, AND I THINK MAKES A VERY DELIBERATE DECISION THAT THAT'S NOT WHAT THEY WANT TO BE.

THAT'S WHAT THE WHOLE COURT CASE LAST YEAR WAS ABOUT, WHY IS HARVARD SUPPRESSING THE NUMBER OF ASIANS.

MY CHAPTER IS HOW DID THEY GO ABOUT SUPPRESSING THE NUMBER OF ASIANS IN THEIR SCHOOL?

THE ANSWER IS IN PART THAT THEY USED ATHLETICS, THEY USED THE BACK DOOR, THEY USED -- THEY HAVE MORE VARSITY SPORTS THAN ANYBODY ELSE AND THEY CREATE A BACK DOOR FOR ATHLETES TO GET IN WITH MUCH LOWER TEST SCORES AND THAT'S HOW THEY MAINTAIN WHAT THEY THINK OF AS HARVARD.

NOW, THOSE -- THAT IS IN A CERTAIN SENSE USING EPIDEMIC PRINCIPLES TO CONTROL THE CULTURE OF INSTITUTION.

>> GAVIN NEWSOM, THE GOVERNOR OF CALIFORNIA, JUST SIGNED A LAW SORT OF STOPPING LEGACY ADMISSIONS, GIVING FAVOR -- FAVORED STATUS TO PEOPLE WHOSE PARENTS WENT TO A CERTAIN COLLEGE OR UNIVERSITY.

WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THAT?

>> OH, MY GOD.

SO HAPPY ABOUT THIS.

THIS IS THE BEST THING EVER.

I WOULD HAVE GONE FURTHER.

THIS IS NOT MY IDEA IT'S ADAM GRANT A PSYCHOLOGIST'S IDEA.

ADAM GRANT SAYS IT SHOULDN'T BE THAT SCHOOLS ARE NEUTRAL, IT SHOULD BE THEY SHOULD PENALIZE YOU IF YOUR PARENTS WENT TO THAT SAME INSTITUTION BECAUSE YOU'VE ALREADY RECEIVED THE CHILD OF SOMEONE WHO HAS ATTENDED HARVARD HAS ALREADY RECEIVED THE BENEFITS THAT HARVARD BESTOWED ON THEIR PARENTS, RIGHT?

SO THEY SHOULD -- SO THEY'VE ALREADY GOT THEIR LEG UP SO THEY SHOULD BE PENALIZED IF THEY WANT TO ATTEND THE SAME INSTITUTION.

NOW, THAT'S SAID IN TONGUE IN CHEEK.

I THINK THAT LEGACY -- LEGACY ADMISSIONS, YOU KNOW, IN THESE SCHOOLS WERE -- I THINK IT'S SAFE TO SAY WERE A STAIN ON AMERICAN MERITOCRACY AND I AM ASTONISHED IT HAS TAKEN US THIS LONG FOR SOMEONE LIKE GAVIN NEWSOM TO TAKE ACTION AGAINST IT.

AND IF THIS TIME NEXT YEAR THE SCHOOLS OF THE NORTHEAST HAVE NOT FOLLOWED SUIT, I WILL BE APPALLED.

>> WHEN I WAS GROWING UP THE TERM THE TIPPING POINT OFTEN REFERRED TO RACIAL TIPPING IN A PARTICULAR NEIGHBORHOOD.

I GREW UP IN BROADMOOR IN THE CENTRAL CITY OF NEW ORLEANS WHICH WAS A MIXED NEIGHBORHOOD AND THERE WERE CONSCIENCE EFFORTS TO MAKE SURE THAT REAL ESTATE AGENTS WEREN'T ALLOWED TO TIP THE NEIGHBORHOOD TO MAKE IT ALL BLACK OR ALL WHITE AND IT REMAINS AND STILL IS A MIXED RACIAL NEIGHBORHOOD.

HOW DOES THAT NOTION OF A TIPPING POINT TIE INTO OUR RACE AND NEIGHBORHOOD DISCUSSIONS?

>> SO THE PHRASE A TIPPING POINT, YOU'RE RIGHT, ACTUALLY ORIGINATES FROM THE 1950s DURING THE ERA OF WHITE FLIGHT.

REALTORS -- IF FACT, WE KNOW EXACTLY -- IF YOU LOOK IN KIND OF THE HISTORY OF THAT TERM IT WAS FIRST USED BY REALTORS TO DESCRIBE THIS VERY THING.

THE POINT AT WHICH THERE WERE SO MANY BLACKS IN A NEIGHBORHOOD THAT THE WHITE POPULATION WOULD LEAVE EN MASSE.

YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT AS WELL THAT IN THE '50s AND '60s THERE WERE SOME UNSCRUPULOUS REALTORS WHO SOUGHT TO REACH THE TIPPING POINT BECAUSE THEY WANTED THE TURNOVER.

THERE WERE LANDLORDS WHO WELCOMED THE INFLUX OF -- WHO THOUGHT THEY COULD EXPLOIT THE NEWCOMERS IN A WAY THAT -- SO THAT'S WHERE THE TERM ORIGINATES, AND MANY OF OUR IDEAS ABOUT BEHAVIORAL CONTAGION AND THE APPLICABILITY OF EPIDEMICS TO SOCIAL BEHAVIOR COME FROM THAT ERA, RIGHT?

IT WAS, YOU KNOW, THE FAMOUS ECONOMIST THOMAS SHELLING WHO WRITES ABOUT -- WHO PRODUCED ALL KINDS OF LITERATURE ON TIPPING POINTS SPOKE -- WROTE EXPLICITLY ABOUT THIS SAME PHENOMENON.

ONE OF THE THINGS WE LEARNED -- I TALK ABOUT THIS IN ONE OF MY CHAPTERS.

ONE OF THE THINGS WE LEARN FROM THAT ERA IS WHERE THE TIPPING POINT WAS.

IT IS NOT THE CASE THAT ONE BLACK FAMILY MOVING INTO A WHITE NEIGHBORHOOD IS SUFFICIENT TO MAKE ALL THE WHITE PEOPLE LEAVE.

THERE IS A NUMBER, IT'S SOMEWHERE AROUND 25 -- BETWEEN 25% AND A THIRD WHERE WHEN THE OUTSIDERS REACH THAT -- THE NEWCOMERS REACH THAT NUMBER, THE EXISTING POPULATION LEAVES EN MASSE.

AND I DESCRIBE IN THE BOOK THIS FASCINATING EXPERIMENT DONE IN PALO ALTO IN A COMMUNITY CALLED THE LAWRENCE TRACT WHERE THEY SAID WE'RE GOING TO MAKE COMMUNITY RULES THAT SAY NO ETHNICITY WHITE, ASIAN OR BLACK CAN EVER BE ABOVE A THIRD.

WE'RE GOING TO TRY TO POLICE -- YOU EXPLICITLY USED THE PRINCIPLES BEHIND EPIDEMICS TO MAKE SURE WE CAN MAINTAIN RACIAL DIVERSITY IN OUR NEIGHBORHOOD.

AND WHAT YOU WERE DESCRIBING IN BROADMOOR SOUNDS LIKE AN INFORMAL VERSION OF THE SAME THING.

THE PEOPLE REALIZED THAT THROUGH COLLECTIVE ACTION THEY COULD KEEP THE FEAR OF WHITE PEOPLE IN CHECK BY TELLING THEM WE'RE NOT GOING TO LET THIS PROCESS BE TAKEN OVER BY UNSCRUPULOUS REAL ESTATE AGENTS OR LANDLORDS.

WE'RE GOING TO HAVE -- WE'RE GOING TO HAVE A -- IN THE MIDST OF THIS KIND OF UPHEAVAL, KEEP A STEADYING HAND ON THE WAY THAT THE CHANGE WORKS, RIGHT?

THAT.

I KNOW IT'S COMPLICATED AND I KNOW IT RAISES ALL KINDS OF QUESTIONS BUT I THINK THE IDEA OF THOUGHTFULLY INTERVENING IN THESE KINDS OF PROCESSES BECAUSE YOU UNDERSTAND THE WAY CONTAGION WORKS IS THE SOLUTION TO MANY OF THESE KINDS OF SOCIAL PROBLEMS.

>> I WANT TO APPLY SOME OF THIS IMMIGRATION.

THERE SEEMS TO BE A CERTAIN POINT, IT'S KIND OF CLOSE TO THE TIPPING POINT YOU TALK ABOUT IN NEIGHBORHOODS, 15 TO 20%, THROUGHOUT AMERICAN HISTORY OR THE HISTORY OF ALMOST ANY OTHER COUNTRY IF THE NUMBER OF IMMIGRANTS IS MORE THAN 15 OR 20% YOU HAVE THE BIG BACK LASHES OF THE 1840s AGAINST THE IRISH OR THE ITALIANS OR JEWS OR BLACKS OR HAITIANS NOW.

TELL ME ABOUT HOW WHAT YOU WRITE ABOUT APPLIES TO OUR CURRENT DEBATE ON IMMIGRATION.

>> YEAH.

SO THAT'S A REALLY INTERESTING QUESTION.

AND I DO THINK THERE IS SOMETHING TO BE LEARNED FROM THE LITERATURE ON TIPPING POINTS AND APPLIED TO IMMIGRATION.

SO IF I HAD -- IF I WAS TO WAVE A MAGIC WAND AND REDO AMERICAN IMMIGRATION POLICIES FROM SCRATCH, WHAT I WOULD RATHER HAVE SEEN, RATHER THAN HAVE THESE SURGES FOLLOWED BY BACK LASHES FOLLOWED BY SURGES FOLLOWED BY BACK LASHES, A SMARTER THING TO DO WOULD BE TO HAVE A STEADY STATE AT SOMEWHERE BELOW WHAT WE BELIEVE TO BE THE TIPPING POINT FOR SOCIAL UNREST.

SO NEVER HAVE -- AND THEN WHAT -- SO YOU WOULD -- SO YOU COULD SORT OF AVOID -- YOU COULD ENGINEER YOUR WAY OUT OF THESE VERY SOCIALLY UNPRODUCTIVE AND PROBLEMATIC BACKLASHES BECAUSE VERY OFTEN THE BACKLASH, WHAT'S GOING ON RIGHT NOW WITH HAITIANS IN SPRINGFIELD IS JUST APPALLING.

I MEAN, PEOPLE WHO COME TO THIS COUNTRY WHO ARE WORKING, WHO ARE HERE LEGALLY, WHO HAVE REVIVED A COMMUNITY.

SO BACKLASHES ARE THINGS THAT WE DESPERATELY NEED TO FIGURE OUT WAYS TO AVOID AND I THINK SOMETHING, YOU KNOW -- LOWERING THE -- BE CAREFUL NOT TO EXCEED THE KIND OF PUBLIC THRESHOLD FOR -- WOULD BE A VERY WISE STRATEGY.

THAT BEING SAID, YOU KNOW, I'M A CANADIAN, CANADA HAS BEEN A COUNTRY THAT OVER THE LAST 30 YEARS HAS QUITE HAPPILY, UNTIL VERY RECENTLY, SUSTAINED A MUCH HIGHER LEVEL OF ANNUAL IMMIGRATION THAN MANY OTHER WESTERN NATIONS.

SO I WONDER -- I WOULD -- I WOULD COUPLE THAT ADVICE WITH SAYING IT WOULD BE USEFUL TO GO TO COUNTRIES LIKE CANADA AND AUSTRALIA AND FIND OUT WHY THEY HAVE MANAGED TO MAINTAIN HIGHER LEVELS OF IMMIGRATION WITHOUT THAT KIND OF PUBLIC BACKLASH.

THAT'S A VERY -- THE CANADA PUZZLE, AS SOMEONE WHO GREW UP THERE AND WAS AN IMMIGRANT TO CANADA MYSELF HAS ALWAYS FASCINATED ME.

CANADA TAKES WAY MORE REFUGEES AND THE PUBLIC SUPPORT FOR TAKING REFUGEES IS MUCH HIGHER THAN ALMOST ANYWHERE ELSE.

IT'S REALLY -- THAT HAS SOMETHING TO DO WITH THE STORY CANADIANS TELL THEMSELVES ABOUT WHO THEY ARE.

THAT THAT STORY INCLUDES A KIND OF -- THAT THEY ARE, YOU KNOW A BIG EMPTY COUNTRY THAT WANTS TO BE FILLED UP WITH PEOPLE FROM AROUND THE WORLD.

THAT'S A VERY POWERFUL STORY.

IT'S BEEN TOLD FOR 250 YEARS IN CANADA AND HOW THEY'VE KEPT THAT STORY ALIVE WOULD BE A VERY INTERESTING THING TO INVESTIGATE.

>> ONE OF THE BIG DIFFERENCES BETWEEN 25 YEARS AGO WHEN YOU WROTE "THE TIPPING POINT" AND NOW WHEN YOU WRITE THE "REVENGE OF THE TIPPING POINT" IS YOU'VE HAD TWO KIDS.

HOW DOES HAVING A COUPLE OF KIDS CHANGE THE WAY YOU LOOK AT THIS AND HOW DOES THE WAY YOU LOOKED AT THE NEW BOOK CHANGE THE WAY YOU RAISE YOUR TWO YOUNG KIDS NOW?

>> WELL, HAVING KIDS MEANS THAT I WILL NEVER GIVE PARENTING ADVICE AGAIN.

I'M OUT OF THAT GAME.

I NOW REALIZE HOW FUTILE IT IS TO TELL ANYONE HOW TO RAISE THEIR KIDS SINCE I HAVE NO CLUE MYSELF.

YOU JUST EVERY DAY ARE CONFRONTED WITH -- I TRY AND TRACK THE PERCENTAGE OF TIMES MY 3-YEAR-OLD AGREES WITH ME OR OBEYS SOME COMMAND I MAKE.

IT'S NOW -- I'M DOWN AT LIKE 25% AND SHE'S ONLY 3 SO WHERE WILL I BELIEVE WHEN SHE'S 16?

AND ALSO, I DON'T KNOW, I'VE ALSO BEEN PLEASANTLY SURPRISED AT HOW LITTLE ALL OF MY THEORIZING ABOUT THE WORLD IS -- HOW LITTLE OF IT I USE IN MY OWN DAY TO DAY PARENTING.

I THINK ALL BETS ARE OFF WHEN YOU'RE RAISING SMALL CHILDREN.

IT HAS BEEN A POWERFULLY HUMBLING EXPERIENCE.

>> MALCOLM GLADWELL, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANK YOU, WALTER.

>>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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