October 8, 2024

>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> SO SHE'S GOT TO NOW TRAVEL TO ANOTHER STATE.

GOD HELP HER THAT SHE HAS SOME EXTRA MONEY TO PAY FOR THAT PLANE TICKET.

>> THE DOLLARS AND CENTS OF REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS.

TOP ECONOMIST LAURA TYSON TELLS ME HOW SUPPORTING WOMEN IS THE KEY TO PROSPERITY.

THEN -- >> I'VE NEVER READ REVIEWS.

I'VE NEVER BEEN MOTIVATED BY THE WRONG THING.

>> LEADING ACTRESS KATE WINSLET ON BLOCKING OUT THE NOISE AND TRANSFORMING INTO A DOGGED WAR REPORTER FOR HER NEW FILM, "LEE."

>> PLUS -- >> I JUST FELT LIKE IF I COULD TALK TRASH THE WAY THE MEN TALKED TRASH, THEN MAYBE I COULD BE ONE OF THE BOYS.

>> THE LEGENDARY CONNY CHUNG.

SHE TALKS ABOUT MAKING HER NAME IN THE ALL MALE INDUSTRY THAT WAS NETWORK NEWS.

>>> AMANPOUR & COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE SYLVIA A AND SIMON B. POITA ENDOWMENT.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LAYLA AND MICKEY STRAUSS.

MARK J. BLESCHNER.

CHARLES ROSEN BLOOM.

KO AND PATRICIA EWAN COMMITTED TO BRIDGING DIFFERENCES IN M OUR COMMUNITIES.

JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH RODGERS AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

IT IS CRUNCH TIME FOR BOTH KAMALA HARRIS AND DONALD TRUMP, FOUR WEEKS TO THE ELECTION DAY.

AMERICANS ARE ON THE VERGE OF MAKING ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT DECISIONS OF THEIRS AND ALL OF OUR TIME AND AS WITH MOST ELECTIONS, ECONOMY IS ISSUE NUMBER ONE.

BUT ALSO IN FOCUS LIKE NEVER BEFORE, REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS AFTER ROE VERSUS WADE WAS OVERTURNED IN 2022.

ON THE SURFACE THESE TWO ISSUES MAY NOT SEEM RELATED BUT ECONOMIST LAURA TYSON ARGUES THEY ARE ACTUALLY LINKED.

TYSON IS THE FIRST FEMALE HEAD AT THE COUNCIL OF ECONOMIC ADVISERS IS NOW A PROFESSOR AT U.C.

BERKELEY AND SHE'S JOINING ME NOW FROM THERE.

LAURA TYSON, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> IT'S A WONDERFUL PLEASURE TO BE WITH YOU.

THANK YOU.

>> SO YOU ARE ONE OF KAMALA HARRIS'S, I DON'T KNOW, KITCHEN CABINET OF ECONOMIC ADVISERS RIGHT NOW, AND YOU HAVE WRITTEN ABOUT THE ISSUE THAT I'VE JUST MENTIONED, HOW REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS AND FREEDOM ACTUALLY IS INTRINSICALLY LINKED TO PROSPERITY.

SO EXPLAIN TO US WHY BECAUSE ON THE SURFACE THEY MAY SEEM TWO -- ONE'S A CULTURAL ISSUE, ONE IS A WOMAN'S ISSUE, THE OTHER IS A HUGE ECONOMIC ISSUE.

>> THERE ARE NUMEROUS STUDIES OVER MANY, MANY YEARS THAT HAVE DOCUMENTED THE FREEDOM TO CHOOSE REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS, THE FREEDOM TO CHOOSE AS A KEY CORNER STONE, REALLY, OF WOMEN'S ECONOMIC FREEDOM BECAUSE WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HERE IS FREEDOM TO CHOOSE YOUR EDUCATION PATH, FREEDOM TO CHOOSE YOUR CAREER PATH, FREEDOM TO BALANCE YOUR FAMILY WITH YOUR PROFESSIONAL COMMITMENT, YOUR CARE COMMITMENT WITH YOUR PROFESSIONAL COMMITMENTS.

SOMEHOW OR OTHER THESE LINKS, VERY OBVIOUS TO WOMEN, SEEM TO BE TOTALLY LOST IN DISCUSSIONS BY A LOT OF THE ECONOMIC ADVISERS ABOUT THE ECONOMY.

SO I DECIDED I WANTED TO WRITE THIS PIECE TO REALLY DOCUMENT ALL OF THE WAYS IN WHICH REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS, ABORTION RIGHTS, THE FREEDOM TO CHOOSE, FREEDOM TO DECIDE WHAT TO DO WITH YOUR BODY REALLY AFFECT THE ECONOMY.

AND AS I SAID, THERE HAVE BEEN NUMEROUS STUDIES OVER MANY YEARS.

IN FACT, THERE WAS A VERY POWERFUL AMICUS BRIEF SUBMITTED TO THE SUPREME COURT AT THE TIMING OF THE DOBBS DECISION WHERE A LOT OF THESE EFFECTS WERE LAID OUT.

A LOT OF THE ECONOMIC IMPLICATIONS OF TAKING AWAY THE RIGHT THAT WAS AVAILABLE IN ROE.

SO I CAN CERTAINLY ENUMERATE THEM -- >> YEAH, I WANTED TO GIVE YOU -- GIVE US A COUPLE OF EXAMPLES OF THE -- LITERALLY THE DOLLARS AND CENTS.

>> OKAY.

SO THE DOLLARS AND CENTS HERE TO ME START WITH EDUCATIONAL ADVANCEMENT.

YOU KNOW, I'M GOING TO JUST DO A PERSONAL ANECDOTE HERE.

WHEN I WAS A Ph.d. STUDENT IN M.I.T.

MANY, MANY, MANY YEARS AGO NOW I WAS ADVISED BY MY GRADUATE ADVISERS WHO WERE ALL MEN, DO NOT HAVE A CHILD UNTIL YOU GET TENURE.

YOU SEE, THIS NOTION OF YOU BALANCE YOUR PROFESSION WITH YOUR FAMILY, YOU HAVE TO PLAN.

YOU HAVE TO PLAN.

AND WHAT WE'VE SEEN IS, YOU KNOW, WOMEN HAVE VASTLY INCREASED THEIR EDUCATIONAL ATTAINMENT LEVELS.

MORE -- WOMEN ACCOUNT FOR A LARGER SHARE OF SECONDARY EDUCATION, TERTIARY EDUCATION THAN MEN DO.

THEY -- WE ALSO KNOW ABSOLUTELY DOCUMENTED, NOT JUST IN THE U.S.

BUT AROUND THE WORLD, THAT THERE IS A MOTHERHOOD PENALTY PROFESSIONALLY AND THE MOTHERHOOD PENALTY COMES FROM THE FACT -- THE REALITY THAT WHEN A WOMAN HAS A CHILD, EVEN IF SHE'S THE HIGH EARNER IN HER FAMILY, SHE IS MORE LIKELY TO DROP OUT OF THE LABOR FORCE, TO TAKE LEAVE FROM THE LABOR FORCE, AND WHEN SHE GOES BACK, SHE'S NOT ABLE TO RECOUP OR CATCH UP ON BE THE WAGES AND THE TIME THAT SHE GAVE UP FOR CHILD CARE.

SO BASICALLY THE MOTHERHOOD PENALTY IS JUST SO WELL-DOCUMENTED, AND WOMEN KIND OF KNOW IT, SO WOMEN ARE TRYING TO PLAN PROFESSION, CAREER, EDUCATION AND CHILD.

THEY WANT TO HAVE THE REPRODUCTIVE FREEDOM TO HAVE THAT CHOICE.

>> SO YOU'RE ARGUING THAT IT'S NOT JUST AN INDIVIDUAL'S PROSPERITY AND ADVANCEMENT THAT CAN BE ENHANCED BY BEING ABLE TO HAVE THAT CHOICE AND THAT PLANNING ABILITY, BUT THAT IT SPREADS TO THE COMMUNITY ECONOMIC HEALTH.

>> YES.

>> I DON'T KNOW, THE NATIONAL ECONOMIC HEALTH.

>> EXACTLY.

>> I GUESS I WANT TO ASK YOU, ARE THERE ANY EXAMPLES OF STATES IN THE UNITED STATES SINCE THE REVERSAL OF ROE VERSUS WADE THAT SHOW AN ECONOMIC LAG OR SOME KIND OF EFFECT ON WOMEN, CHILDREN AND THE STATE OF ECONOMIC HEALTH IN STATES THAT ARE MUCH MORE STRICT ON THIS?

>> WELL, I HEARD YOUR -- I HEARD WHAT WAS SAID BEFORE BY VICE PRESIDENT HARRIS, CANDIDATE HARRIS.

YOU KNOW, INCOME AND EDUCATION LEVEL, IF A WOMAN IN A HIGHLY RESTRICTIVE STATE LIKE TEXAS IS A GRADUATE STUDENT IN NEED OF AN ABORTION, SHE WILL GO TO ANOTHER STATE.

SO BASICALLY I THINK THAT RIGHT NOW YOU HAVE A SITUATION -- SO THE PROBLEM HERE IS THAT THIS IS MUCH MORE BURDENSOME FOR POOR WOMEN.

SO A LOT OF THE ABORTION RESTRICTIONS OCCUR IN THE STATES WHERE THE PERCENTAGE OF WOMEN IN POVERTY IS HIGHER.

THE PERCENTAGE OF CHILDREN IN POVERTY IS HIGHER.

THE LIKELIHOOD THAT A MOTHER -- A SINGLE MOTHER LIVING IN POVERTY IF SHE CANNOT GET AN ABORTION WILL HAVE ANOTHER CHILD LIVING IN POVERTY, THOSE ARE THE WAYS IT SHOWS UP.

THE INCIDENTS OF THIS IS QUITE UNEVEN AND IT IS LOWER INCOME WOMEN IN POOR STATES THAT ARE THE MOST RESTRICTIVE THAT CANNOT FIND A WAY TO GET AN ABORTION.

WE HAVE STILL IN THE UNITED STATES SEVERAL STATES THAT ALLOW THAT, BUT THE ECONOMIC EFFECTS THERE ARE WHO CAN AFFORD TO DO THAT?

WHO CAN EVEN HAVE THE KNOWLEDGE TO DO THAT?

SO I WOULD -- THAT'S HOW I WOULD ANSWER THAT QUESTION.

>> SO -- >> SO LET ME -- GO AHEAD.

>> I JUST WANT TO ASK YOU A COUPLE OF ISSUES BECAUSE IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT THAT PARTICULAR ISSUE.

KAMALA HARRIS, I MEAN, OBVIOUSLY SHE HAS REALLY BEEN THE ADMINISTRATION'S POINT PERSON EVEN BEFORE BECOMING THE CANDIDATE ON ALL OF THESE ISSUES AROUND ROE VERSUS WADE.

>> RIGHT.

>> BUT SHE ALSO FOR HER ECONOMIC POLICY WANTS TO INCREASE THE CHILD TAX CREDIT, INCREASE SPENDING ON CHILD CARE AND ELDER CARE, AND TO ENCOURAGE HOMEOWNERSHIP AND NEW HOUSING CONSTRUCTION, BUT THOSE -- THE PREVIOUS ONES, THE FIRST THREE AGAIN GO DIRECTLY TO WOMEN AND THEIR ROLE IN THE ECONOMY BECAUSE THEY DISPROPORTIONATELY, RIGHT, BEAR THE BURDEN OF CHILD AND ELDER CARE.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

ABSOLUTELY.

SO I -- I BASICALLY MADE THE POINT IN WHAT I'VE WRITTEN THAT NOT ONLY ARE THE RED STATES OR THE SENATORS FROM RED STATES, THE PEOPLE WHO ARE MOST AGGRESSIVE ON VERY RESTRICTIVE ABORTION, LET'S LOOK AT THEIR POSITIONS ON THOSE KINDS OF ISSUES.

THEY ARE -- HAVE HISTORICALLY BACKED ANY PAID FAMILY LEAVE.

THEY HAVE HISTORICALLY -- THEY ALLOWED FOR A TEMPORARY INCREASE IN THE EXPANSION OF THE CHILD TAX CREDIT DURING COVID BUT THEY TOOK IT AWAY IMMEDIATELY.

WHEN IT WAS PROPOSED THAT THEY CONSIDER IT AGAIN, BASICALLY TRUMP IN ANOTHER EXAMPLE SAID TO THE REPUBLICANS, DON'T DO THIS NOW BECAUSE YOU'RE GIVING THE DEMOCRATS A WIN, JUST LIKE HE SAID THAT ON THE IMMIGRATION RESTRICTION LAW.

DON'T GIVE -- I -- HE'S NOW SAYING THINGS LIKE, YEAH, I THINK WE SHOULD HAVE CHILD CARE TAX CREDIT OR SOME KIND OF CARE PROVISION, BUT I DON'T WANT IT -- I DON'T WANT A CHILD TAX CREDIT IN A DEMOCRATIC CONGRESS RIGHT NOW.

I WANT IT TO BE MY WIN.

SO THIS IS -- ANOTHER AREA THAT THE SAME STATES, THE SAME GOVERNORS, THE SAME SENATORS WHEN IN VITRO FERTILIZATION CAME UP, HERE'S THE REAL PROBLEM FOR THEM.

ACCORDING TO PROJECT 2025, WHICH INFORMS MANY OF THEIR THINKING, TWO THINGS ARE TRUE.

NUMBER ONE, WE CAN NO LONGER HAVE MEDICATION-INDUCED ABORTION, SO THOSE WOMEN WHO MIGHT LIVE IN A STATE THAT ALLOWS IT BUT ACTUALLY ARE POOR, THEY WON'T BE ABLE TO GET THEIR MEDICATION.

OKAY?

IF THAT'S PROJECT 2025.

ANOTHER PROJECT 2025 SAYS THAT -- BELIEVES IN FETAL PERSONHOOD.

SO I ACTUALLY THINK THAT THIS ISSUE WILL EXTEND TO IVF, IT'LL EXTEND TO ALL FORMS OF ABORTION, INCLUDING MEDICAL ABORTION.

AND LET ME SAY THAT FROM THE POINT OF VIEW OF THE COMMUNITY, I THINK THAT WHAT WE HAVE HERE IS A SITUATION WHERE, AS I SAID, IT'S HARDEST ON POOR WOMEN.

AND IF YOU LOOK AT THESE STATES, YOU WILL SEE THAT WOMEN ARE MORE LIKELY TO BE ILL. THEIR CHILDREN ARE MORE LIKELY TO DIE IN THEIR FIRST YEAR OF BIRTH.

ALL OF THESE THINGS THAT ACTUALLY ARE FOR THE COMMUNITY.

THEY'RE NOT JUST ON THE INDIVIDUAL.

AS FAR AS THE MACRO ECONOMY IS CONCERNED, I WOULD SAY THE MAIN INFLUENCE HERE IS WOMEN'S LABOR FORCE PARTICIPATION RATES.

WE KNOW THAT IF YOU LOOK AT MALE LABOR FORCE PARTICIPATION RATES IN THE U.S., THEY'VE BEEN ON A DECLINE FOR THE PAST 35 YEARS.

WOMEN'S LABOR FORCE PARTICIPATION RATES WENT UP AND THEN KIND OF STABILIZED, AND IT'S TOO EARLY TO SEE WHETHER THIS ABORTION RESTRICTION WILL HAVE AN EFFECT, OKAY?

BUT WE KNOW THAT, AGAIN, WOMEN WILL HAVE TO LEAVE THE LABOR FORCE.

>> YEAH.

>> WE SEE THAT.

WE KNOW THAT.

>> LAURA, I'VE GOT TO ASK YOU A QUESTION.

>> YES.

>> YOU TRIED TO BROADEN OUT TO THE MACRO ECONOMY AND I NEED TO ASK YOU THIS.

A NEW STUDY COMPARING HARRIS AND TRUMP'S ECONOMIC PLANS IS MAKING NEWS.

APPARENTLY THE COMMITTEE FOR RESPONSIBLE BUDGET SAID BOTH CANDIDATES' POLICIES WILL INCREASE THE FEDERAL DEFICIT, WHICH IS QUITE CONSIDERABLE.

THEY ESTIMATE TRUMP'S WILL INCREASE IT MUCH MORE, LIKE TWICE AS MUCH AS HARRIS.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT ANALYSIS?

AND HOW IS -- HOW -- I MEAN, I KNOW THE FEDERAL DEFICIT IS LIKE A SACRED COW AND EVERYBODY TALKS ABOUT IT, BUT, A, THE ANALYSIS AND WHAT DOES IT MEAN, IN FACT, IN REAL ECONOMIC TERMS FOR THE COUNTRY?

>> WELL, I THINK YOU HAVE TO -- IT IS CERTAINLY TRUE THAT THE -- I'M GOING TO START WITH THE FACT THAT THERE ARE NUMEROUS ANALYSIS OUT THERE.

THIS IS THE MOST RECENT ONE.

EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM SHOWS A DRAMATICALLY LARGER INCREASE IN THE DEFICIT OVER TEN YEARS UNDER TRUMP THAN UNDER HARRIS.

HARRIS IS PROPOSING TO TRY TO -- TO COVER HER NEW PROGRAMS BY A FAIRER, HIGHER TAX BURDEN ON THE VERY WEALTHY AND ON CORPORATIONS.

AND SHE ACTUALLY HAS A PAY FOR PLAN FOR MOST OF THE THINGS THAT SHE WANTS TO INTRODUCE, MOST OF WHICH ARE CARE RELATED, OKAY?

THEY ARE CARE RELATED.

SHE WANTS TO EXPAND THE EARNED INCOME TAX CREDIT, WHICH AS FAR AS THE ECONOMY IS CONCERNED, THAT IS ONE THING WE KNOW DOES WORK AT PUTTING PEOPLE TO WORK.

THAT IS SOMETHING THE CLINTON ADMINISTRATION EXPANDED, THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION EXPANDED, WE SHOULD EXPAND IT.

>> OKAY.

>> I GUESS I REALLY COME OUT HERE, I THINK, VERY SIMILAR TO WHERE JASON FURMAN WHO WAS THE CHAIRMAN OF THE COUNCIL OF ECONOMIC ADVISERS UNDER OBAMA, WHAT HE HAS BASICALLY SAID HERE, WHICH IS THAT TRUMP'S BUDGET, TRUMP'S TARIFFS, TRUMP'S THREAT TO THE INDEPENDENCE OF THE FEDERAL RESERVE POSE A MUCH GREATER RISK TO THE U.S. ECONOMY AND, INDEED, ORGANIZATIONS LIKE MOODY AND GOLDMAN SACHS ARE SAYING, HEY, THIS LOOKS LIKE IF HE GOES THROUGH WITH THESE TARIFF INCREASES, AND SOME -- EVEN SOME OF THE DEPORTATION OF LABOR, WE ARE GOING TO HAVE AN ECONOMY WHICH IS IN STAGFLATION.

WE'RE GOING TO HAVE A RECESSION AND WE ARE GOING TO HAVE STAGFLATION.

THAT'S THE REALITY.

THAT'S THE REALITY.

>> ALL RIGHT.

BUT THERE'S ANOTHER REALITY AS WELL, AND THAT IS THE NARRATIVE ON THE LATEST CNN POLLS OF LIKELY VOTERS SAY -- AND MOST POLLS HAVE BEEN SAYING THIS, THEY TRUST TRUMP OVER HARRIS TO HANDLE THE ECONOMY.

THE LATEST IS 49% TRUMP, 35% FOR HARRIS.

SO HOW DO YOU SQUARE THAT CIRCLE?

>> I -- I DON'T -- I WILL SAY ONE THING ABOUT THIS.

WE -- PEOPLE WHO ARE THINKING BACK TO TRUMP, THE MAIN DISTINCTION FOR THEM IS THAT PRICES WERE LOWER.

WE DID NOT HAVE THAT BOUT OF INFLATION THAT OCCURRED POST COVID IN 2021 AND 2022 SO BASICALLY PEOPLE ARE MAINLY RESPONDING TO HIGHER PRICES.

AND RELATED TO THAT, HIGHER INTEREST RATES AND THE ABILITY TO GET A HOME LOAN.

OR THE WILLINGNESS OF PEOPLE TO SELL THEIR HOUSE IF THEY ACTUALLY HAVE A REAL GOOD LOW INTEREST LOAN ON IT.

SO I THINK WHAT -- WHAT HARRIS HAS SAID NUMEROUS TIMES IS, YES, PRICES ARE TOO HIGH.

WE WANT TO DO WHAT WE CAN TO BRING THEM DOWN.

SO, FOR EXAMPLE, ON PRESCRIPTION DRUGS, THIS IS REALLY IMPORTANT BECAUSE THE IRA THAT -- INFLATION REDUCTION ACT, WHICH WAS LARGELY A CLIMATE ACT, BUT IT DID HAVE THE ABILITY OF THE GOVERNMENT TO NEGOTIATE ON DRUG PRICES.

DO YOU KNOW HOW IMPORTANT THAT IS?

THE GOVERNMENT IS ONE OF THE BIGGEST BUYERS OF DRUGS IN THE WORLD.

EVERY OTHER BUYER NEGOTIATES WITH DRUG COMPANIES.

SO I DO -- I DO THINK WE HAVE TO GO AFTER EACH AREA.

HOUSING SHE HAS SAID, OKAY, YES, HOUSING PRICES ARE HIGH.

INTEREST RATES ARE COMING DOWN, BUT WE HAVE TO DO MUCH MORE TO BUILD ADDITIONAL HOUSING UNITS.

SHE'S THE ONLY ONE WITH A DETAILED PLAN THAT MOST OBSERVERS, ECONOMISTS AND PEOPLE IN THE BUSINESS ARENA SAID THIS IS A PRETTY GOOD PLAN WITH A GOAL OF 3 MILLION ADDITIONAL HOUSING UNITS WORKING WITH STATE AND LOCAL GOVERNMENTS.

SO I THINK WHAT SHE'S DONE IS SAY, OKAY, YES, PRICES ARE TOO HIGH.

LET'S GO THROUGH PRICE BY PRICE, AREA BY AREA.

WHAT CAN WE DO OVER TIME TO BRING PRICES DOWN, BUT I THINK THAT IS PROBABLY THE MAIN REASON WHY VOTERS, WHEN THEY THINK BACK TO TRUMP AND THEY SAY, WELL, WHAT WAS GOOD ABOUT THAT ECONOMY VERSUS THIS ECONOMY, I THINK THEY JUST SAY, PRICES.

>> ALL RIGHT.

BUT -- >> ON THE OTHER HAND, LET ME JUST SAY, BECAUSE THIS IS REALLY GOOD NEWS -- >> YEAH.

>> -- THE LAST SEVERAL JOBS REPORTS, THE ONE FROM LAST WEEK SHOWS -- >> I'VE GOT TO WRAP YOU NOW LAURA.

>> WAGES ARE RISING FASTER THAN PRICES.

WAGES ARE RISING FASTER THAN PRICES.

>> YOU GOT THAT LAST PRICE IN.

LAURA TYSON, ADVISER TO THE HARRIS CAMPAIGN.

>>> NOW AS THE CONFLICT IN THE MIDDLE EAST WORSENS, THE WORLD LOOKS TO JOURNALISTS ON THE GROUND TO TELL THE TRUTH SO WE TURN TO ONE PHOTOGRAPHER WHO PAVED THE WAY FOR WAR CORRESPONDENTS BUT WHOSE STORY REMAINS LARGELY UNTOLD.

LEE MILLER CAPTURED THE ATROCITIES OF THE SECOND WORLD WAR DESPITE FACING RESISTANCE AS A WOMAN IN THE FIELD.

AWARD WINNING ACTRESS KATE WINSLET IS BRINGING THAT STORY INTO THE SPOTLIGHT IN HER NEW FILM, "LEE."

I RECENTLY SPOKE WITH WINSLET.

HERE'S OUR CONVERSATION.

KATE WINSLET, WELCOME TO OUR PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> IT IS WONDERFUL FOR ME ANYWAY AND FOR THE GENERAL AUDIENCE, I'M SURE, TO SEE YOU PLAYING ONE OF THE MOST ILLUSTRIOUS WAR CORRESPONDENTS OF THE 20th CENTURY.

WHAT MADE YOU CHOOSE THIS CHARACTER WHO WASN'T KNOWN FOR WHAT SHE WAS REALLY BEST AT?

>> WELL, I THINK IT'S PROBABLY EXACTLY, AS YOU SAY, SHE WASN'T WELL KNOWN AND SHE WASN'T REVERED, I FELT, FOR THE RIGHT REASONS.

I KNEW WHO LEE MILLER WAS AND I WAS AWARE OF HER WORK AS A PHOTOGRAPHER AND I KNEW WHAT SHE LOOKED LIKE, BUT I FOUND THAT AS I STARTED TO REALLY DIG INTO THE REST OF HER LIFE, THE SORT OF HEADLINE DESCRIPTION OF HER WAS FORMER NEWS -- ACTUALLY NOT THE, A FORMER MUSE, EX-COVER GIRL, EX-"VOGUE" MODEL.

THESE KIND OF REDUCTIVE THINGS THAT REDUCED HER, IN A WAY, REDUCED HER POWER, SORT OF STUCK HER IN A MOMENT IN HISTORY THAT SHE COULDN'T WAIT TO GET AWAY FROM.

>> THE GREAT SURREALIST ARTIST OF THE 20th CENTURY, IN FACT, IT WASN'T UNTIL AFTER SHE DIED THAT HER SON FOUND BOXES OF HER DIARIES AND PHOTOS HIDDEN AWAY.

IT'S ALMOST LIKE SHE DIDN'T WANT TO TELL, SHE DIDN'T WANT TO LET ON.

WHY DO YOU THINK THAT WAS?

>> I DON'T THINK IT'S A CASE OF WANT, I THINK IT'S A CASE OF COULDN'T.

I THINK IT'S A CASE OF SO MANY PEOPLE HAD TERRIBLE DEBILITATING PTSD AFTER WORLD WAR II AND LEE WAS NO EXCEPTION TO THAT.

IN FACT, QUITE THE OPPOSITE.

IT RETRIGGERED IN HER THE TRAUMA OF WHAT HAPPENED TO HER AS A CHILD AND I THINK THE LEVEL OF EXPOSURE TO SUCH EXTREME HORROR AS THEY WITNESSED DURING THE WAR, IT CRACKED HER OPEN AND I THINK REVEALED OLD WOUNDS THAT SHE SIMPLY HAD TO DO HER VERY BEST TO CLOSE.

AND PART OF THAT WAS QUITE LITERALLY CLOSING HER PHOTOGRAPHS AND PRINTS INTO BOXES, SHUTTING THEM AWAY, PUTTING THEM IN THE ATTIC AND NEVER SPEAKING OF IT.

AND IT'S ABSOLUTELY TRUE THAT ANTONY PENN ROSE HAD ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA WHAT HIS MOTHER HAD DONE IN WORLD WAR II AFTER HER DEATH WHICH HE FOUND IN THOSE BOXES.

>> HE WROTE THE STORY AFTER HER DEATH.

>> LEE BECAUSE OF HER TRAUMA AND BECAUSE SHE GOT PREGNANT WITH HIM UNEXPECTEDLY JUST AFTER THE WAR, SHE FOUND IT EXTREMELY HARD TO BE A MOTHER.

SHE HAD A DANGEROUS RELATIONSHIP WITH ALCOHOL, AND HE HAS TALKED ABOUT HOW FRACTURED THEIR RELATIONSHIP WAS, EVEN DESCRIBING IT AS CAUSTIC AT TIMES.

I RECENTLY HEARD HIM SAY THAT UNTIL HE OPENED THOSE BOXES AND STARTED TO READ HER ARTICLES ABOUT THE SIEGE OF SAN MARLO AND LOOK AT THOSE IMAGES, HE SAID, I JUST THOUGHT SHE HAD BEEN THIS USELESS OLD DRUNK AND HERE SHE WAS REVEALED TO ME AS BEING SO MUCH MORE I EVER COULD HAVE IMAGINED OR EVER COULD HAVE HOPED.

IT'S BEEN A PHENOMENAL JOURNEY FOR HIM PIECING TOGETHER WHO SHE TRULY WAS BUT COMING TO UNDERSTAND WHY SHE HAD BEEN THE WAY SHE HAD BEEN TO HIM AS A MOTHER.

>> IT'S REALLY AMAZING THAT WE BROUGHT THIS UP SO EARLY BECAUSE IT GOES RIGHT TO THE HEART OF WHAT IT IS TO BE A WOMAN AND A WOMAN AT WORK AND A WOMAN WHO DOES DANGEROUS THINGS.

LET'S SORT OF START AT THE BEGINNING BEFORE THE FAMOUS PICTURE OF HER IN HITLER'S BATHTUB.

SHE WANTED TO GO COVER THE BRITISH WAR EFFORT AND SHE WASN'T ALLOWED, RIGHT?

>> YES.

SHE WAS INITIALLY -- AFTER SHE HAD DECIDED THAT BEING A WAR CORRESPONDENT FOR BRITISH "VOGUE" IN ORDER TO CONVEY INFORMATION TO THE FEMALE READERS OF BRITISH "VOGUE," SHE INVENTED THAT JOB.

INITIALLY SHE WAS -- YES, SHE WAS GIVEN THE TASK OF GOING AND PHOTOGRAPHING, AS YOU SAY, THE WOMEN, THE PILOTS, IN THE WOMEN'S QUARTERS BUT SHE WAS ABSOLUTELY DETERMINED TO GO TO THE FRONT LINE.

AND WOMEN WERE NOT ALLOWED, THEY WERE NOT.

EVEN AS SHE GOT THERE WHEN WE SEE IN THE FILM, NO WOMEN IN THE PRESS BRIEFING.

THE UTTER OUTRAGE.

AND WHAT I LOVED AND STILL LOVE AND WILL FOREVER LOVE ABOUT LEE IS THAT SHE LED HER LIFE WITH INTENTION AND GRACE, INTEGRITY AND RESILIENCE, REDEFIING FEMININITY ALREADY IN THE WAY THAT WE LIVE NOW.

THIS WAS A WOMAN WHO NOT ONLY KNEW SHE HAD EARNED HER PLACE AT THE TABLE BUT WAS DETERMINED TO SIT AT THE HEAD OF IT.

AND THAT FOR ME IN TERMS OF A GLOBAL MESSAGE ABOUT FEMALE LEADERSHIP IS PHENOMENAL AND IMPORTANT.

>> AND THEN SHE SOMEHOW BECAME THE FIRST PERSON TO BREAK THE NEWS OF SOME OF THESE CONCENTRATION CAMPS, NOTABLY DAKAO.

HOW DID SHE EVEN GET THERE?

>> LEE WAS PHENOMENALLY GOOD AT USING HER CHARMS.

SHE REALLY WAS.

AND SHE LENT INTO THE FACT THAT SHE WAS A WOMAN AND COULD BUDDY UP WITH THE GUYS EASILY.

SHE WOULD CHITCHAT WITH THE GIs, FIND INFORMATION ON THE INSIDE AND SHE WOULD JUST FOLLOW HER NOSE.

AND THE MORE AND MORE THAT THEY WERE HEARING ABOUT PEOPLE GOING MISSING AND THE MORE THAT THEY BECAME AWARE THAT NO ONE KNEW WHERE THEY HAD GONE TO OR HAD BEEN TAKEN, THE HUNGRIER IT MADE LEE TO UNEARTH THIS MYSTERY, THIS ATROCITY, THIS LIE AND TO REVEAL IT TO THE WORLD.

SHE KEPT HEARING RUMORS OF SOMETHING HAPPENING DOWN SOUTH, AND SHE WRITES ABOUT THAT.

AND WE INCLUDE WORDS TO THAT EFFECT IN OUR FILM.

AND SHE AND DAVIE SHERMAN WERE ALWAYS THE FIRST IN THE DOOR AT ANY SCOOP.

AND THEY ARRIVED AT DAKAO NOT KNOWING REALLY ANYTHING ABOUT WHAT THEY WERE ABOUT TO SEE BUT KNOWING THAT THAT'S WHERE ALL THE MILLIONS OF MISSING HAD ALLEGEDLY BEEN TAKEN, ONE OF MANY PLACES, MANY, MANY PLACES ACROSS EUROPE AS OF COURSE NOW WE KNOW SO MANY MILLIONS OF PEOPLE HAD BEEN TAKEN TO.

WHAT HAD HAPPENED TO THEM, OF COURSE, THEY WERE ONLY ABOUT TO DISCOVER.

>> THROUGH HER PICTURES?

>> THROUGH HER PICTURES.

>> AT ONE POINT THE MOST FAMOUS PICTURE THAT BASICALLY THE WORLD KNOWS ABOUT LEE MILLER IS, FRANKLY, HER IN HITLER'S BATHTUB.

IT'S BEEN VERY MISREPRESENTED OVER THE YEARS AS SOME KIND OF DELETANTE ACTION, IT SHOWS DAVIE COLLIN SETTING UP THE SHOT OF YOU AS LEE MILLER IN THE BATHTUB.

>> WHAT?

>> QUICK.

I NEED YOU.

>> FOR WHAT?

>> GOOD?

>> ALL RIGHT.

>> ALL RIGHT.

THERE.

>> YEAH.

READY?

>> FOR HISTORY'S SAKE, TELL US WHY SHE TOOK THAT BATH.

IT WASN'T JUST A WAR TROPHY.

AND HITLER WAS COMMITTING SUICIDE OR HAD JUST COMMITTED SUICIDE IN HIS BUNKER AT THAT TIME.

>> LEE AND DAVIE HAD NOT WASHED OR CHANGED THEIR CLOTHES FOR SIX WEEKS, AND THEY CERTAINLY HADN'T TOUCHED HOT WATER, AND THAT IS A FACT.

THAT IS A HISTORICAL FACT.

SO IT JUST DOESN'T SURPRISE ME THAT LEE WOULD THINK, WELL, THERE'S NO ONE HERE.

THERE'S A LOCKABLE DOOR.

THERE'S HOT, RUNNING WATER.

AND I BELIEVE AND TONY PEN ROSE SHARES THE SAME VIEW, THAT IT WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN UNTIL SHE WAS IN THAT BATH THAT SHE REALIZED, HANG ON A SECOND, THIS MIGHT JUST BE SOMETHING I NEED TO DO.

>> TO WASH OFF THE HORROR?

>> TO WASH OFF THE DIRT OF DAKAO AND THE HORROR AND THE EVIL IN HITLER'S BATHTUB, TO STAMP THAT MUD INTO HIS GURLY YELLOW LEMON BATH MAT AS SHE HERSELF DESCRIBED IT.

IT'S PURE LEE.

IT JUST DOESN'T SURPRISE ME NOW I KNOW HER AS INTIMATELY AS I DO, I CAN ABSOLUTELY SEE WHY SHE WOULD DO SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

>> WE HAVE ANOTHER CLIP WHERE LEE HAS SENT THESE PICTURES OF THE CONCENTRATION CAMPS BACK TO "VOGUE."

YOU SEE THE SORT OF -- LEE CUTTING THEM UP IN ANGER BECAUSE THEY HADN'T BEEN PRINTED AND SHE WANTS TO GET THE STORY OUT.

WE'RE GOING TO PLAY THIS CLIP.

>> STOP, STOP, STOP, STOP, STOP, STOP.

THEY'RE AN HISTORICAL RECORD.

>> WELL, WHO CARES.

NOBODY IS PRINTING THEM.

>> I FOUGHT FOR THEM, LEE.

I FOUGHT FOR THEM.

THESE MUST BE PRESERVED.

>> TO STAY IN A FILING CABINET?

>> THE MINISTRY THOUGHT THEY MAY DISTURB THE PEOPLE.

>> THIS HAPPENED.

THIS REALLY HAPPENED.

>> LEE, LEE, LEE, LEE -- >> THIS HAPPENED.

>> -- THESE IMAGES WILL DISTURB PEOPLE MORE THAN THEY'VE ALREADY BEEN DISTURBED.

PEOPLE NEED TO MOVE ON.

>> MOVE ON?

MOVE ON?

THAT LITTLE GIRL IN A DEATH CAMP RAPED AND BEATEN, HOW DOES SHE MOVE ON?

HOW ZOES SHE MOVE ON?

EVER, EVER, EVER?

>> SO FOR ME THAT WAS AN INCREDIBLE SCENE.

HAVING COVERED WAR MYSELF AND HAVING BEEN TOLD YOU CAN'T SHOW THAT AMOUNT OF DETAIL OR THAT AMOUNT OF ACTUAL HORROR, IT WAS EXTRAORDINARY, THE REACTION THAT LEE HAD.

TELL ME ABOUT HER AND THE ARGUMENT SHE WAS HAVING WITH THE EDITOR, WHO WAS ON HER SIDE.

THE EDITOR WAS A BIG SUPPORTER OF HER.

AND DID THOSE PICTURES EVENTUALLY GET PUBLISHED?

WHAT IMPACT DID THEY HAVE?

>> LEE AND AUDREY WITHERS HAD AN EXCEPTIONAL RELATIONSHIP.

IT CROSSED OVER FROM A BOSS AND EMPLOYEE INTO THE TERRITORY OF VERY GENTLE, IMPORTANT FEMALE FRIENDSHIP.

THIS REALLY HAPPENED, THIS SCENE.

IT'S SOMETHING THAT ACTUALLY DID TAKE PLACE.

>> YES.

>> I MET A WOMAN WHEN I WAS RESEARCHING THE FILM WHO WAS A 15-YEAR-OLD SECRETARY AT "VOGUE" AT THE TIME.

SHE TOLD ME THE STORY.

KATE, I WILL TELL YOU SOMETHING THAT HAPPENED THAT WAS RATHER REMARKABLE.

SHE CAME IN AND SHE WAS RATHER DRUNK.

SHE WAS IN A TERRIBLE STATE AND SHE WAS FURIOUS THAT MORE OF HER IN "VOGUE."

SHE STARTED GOING THROUGH DRAWERS.

SHE PICKED UP MY SCISSORS AND SHE STARTED HACKING, HACKING, AS THOUGH SHE WAS TRYING TO CUT THEM OUT OF HERSELF.

THAT'S HOW I READ THAT.

AND THE ONLY WAY THIS YOUNG GIRL COULD GET HER TO STOP CUTTING -- SHE FEARED SHE WAS GOING TO HURT HERSELF.

LEE LOOKED HER IN THE EYE AND WAS ALMOST STARTLED AND SHE STOPPED AND SHE PUT THE SCISSORS DOWN AND SHE LEFT.

I HAVE ACTUALLY HELD THOSE CUT UP NEGATIVES MYSELF IN MY HAND.

AND WHEN I HEARD THAT STORY I KNEW IT WOULD HAVE TO BE A PART OF OUR FILM PRECISELY BECAUSE OF THAT DEEP METAPHOR THAT LEE WAS SO TRAUMATIZED AND SO DESPERATELY TRYING TO GET RID OF THESE THINGS THAT SHE HAD SEEN.

LIKE SO MANY PEOPLE, LEE FELT COMPLETELY PORTRAYED BY THAT.

THERE WAS AN INTERVIEW WITH AUDREY IN THE ' 80s THAT LEE SAID IT HAUNTED HER.

SHE HAD THEM PRINTED IN AMERICAN "VOGUE" IN AN ARTICLE ENTITLED "BELIEVE IT."

THEY WERE PRINTED IN A MUCH LARGER SCALE ACROSS MANY PAGES IN THE END AND AUDREY DID FIGHT FOR THAT.

>> YOU'VE PLAYED OTHER CHARACTERS OF THE WORLD WAR II NAZI ERA.

YOU STARTED I THINK YOUR FILM CAREER WHEN YOU WERE 17 OR SO.

YOUR DAD, I READ, DROVE YOU TO THE AUDITION FOR "HEAVENLY CREATURES."

IT APPEARS YOU GREW UP IN A VERY LEVEL HEADED, LOVING FAMILY.

I JUST WONDER GIVEN ALL THE TRAUMA, PTSD THAT YOU PORTRAY IN FILMS FOR THOSE CHARACTERS, WHAT HELPED YOU GET THROUGH A SUPERSTAR CAREER IN THE LEVEL HEADED WAY THAT YOU SEEMED TO HAVE TURNED OUT?

>> YOU KNOW, THE HONEST ANSWER IS, YOU KNOW, PART OF ME IS SORT OF ALMOST NOT SURE.

I THINK PERHAPS EXACTLY AS YOU POINT OUT.

I DID HAVE AND DO HAVE AN EXTREMELY GROUNDED, LOVING FAMILY WHO CARE ABOUT THE IMPORTANT THINGS.

THEY CARE ABOUT TOGETHERNESS, THEY CARE ABOUT FEASTING AND SHARING AND STOPPING AND CLIMBING TREES AND NOT BEING ENDLESSLY CONSUMED BY PHONES AND SOCIAL MEDIA AND WHAT THE WHITE NOISE IS SAYING.

I'VE NEVER READ REVIEWS.

I'VE NEVER BEEN MOTIVATED BY THE WRONG THING.

AND I THINK WHEN YOU GROW UP IN A FAMILY THAT IS SO WEALTHY WITH HEART AND WEALTHY WITH AFFECTION AND SPONTANEITY, IT MEANT THAT I FELT I WAS NEVER SEARCHING FOR SOMETHING MORE IN MYSELF.

I WAS SEARCHING FOR A DREAM.

I WAS PURSUING A DREAM THAT I BELIEVED IN.

I KNEW I WANTED TO ACT.

I WAS DETERMINED TO DO IT.

AND SO WHEN I WENT FOR THAT AUDITION FOR "HEAVENLY CREATURES," I JUST COULDN'T BELIEVE IT.

EVEN HOLDING A FILM SCRIPT IN MY HAND, I WAS LIKE, WOW, THIS IS A FILM SCRIPT.

IT WAS HEAVY, THICK.

I HAVE THIS CHARACTER ON EVERY SINGLE PAGE, MY GOODNESS.

IF I COULD GET THIS JOB, MY DAD LOOKED AT ME AND SAID, YOU'LL GET IT.

I THOUGHT, YES.

ACTUALLY, YES.

FROM THEN ON I HAVE ALWAYS TRIED TO MAINTAIN A SENSE OF GROUNDEDNESS, DETERMINATION PERHAPS WHEN I WAS MUCH YOUNGER WAS POSSIBLY SOMETHING THAT GAVE ME THE COURAGE TO EVEN WALK OVER THE THRESHOLD.

IT IS ME THEY WANT.

THEY WON'T KNOW IT UNTIL I WALK IN THE ROOM.

IT IS ME.

>> AT SOME POINT YOU HAD SO MUCH PUBLIC PRESSURE FROM THE PUBLIC GAZE, THE MALE GAZE, THE PAPARAZZI.

HOW DID YOU GET THROUGH THAT DARK TUNNEL?

>> I THINK WHERE I WAS VERY FORTUNATE, AND I ALWAYS JUMP TO THE POSITIVE, IS THAT MENTALLY I WAS OKAY.

LIKE I DIDN'T CRACK.

I DIDN'T HAVE A NERVOUS I'VE NEVER TAKEN DRUGS.

REALLY NEVER TAKEN DRUGS.

AND, ACTUALLY, PEOPLE WILL OFTEN SAY TO ME HOW DID YOU NOT COMPLETELY GO UNDER?

AGAIN, THAT IS BECAUSE I HAVE THIS LEVEL FAMILY.

IF IN DOUBT I'D GO HOME FOR SUNDAY LUNCH.

MY MOM WOULD HAVE PUT THE WORLD TO RIGHTS WITH A WONDERFUL ROAST DINNER.

I WAS A BIT POWERLESS AS TO HOW TO NAVIGATE THE WAY WHEN DEALING WITH A LEVEL OF SCRUTINY FROM MAINSTREAM MEDIA THAT I KNEW WAS MORALLY VERY WRONG.

AND WHAT WAS I GOING TO DO?

STAND UP AND DEFEND MYSELF FOR JUST BEING MYSELF?

I MEAN, I WASN'T DOING ANYTHING WRONG, I WAS JUST BEING CRITICIZED FOR HOW I LOOKED PHYSICALLY.

THAT IS NOT OKAY.

AND IT MAKES ME SO HAPPY TO SIT BACK AND WATCH WONDERFUL, POWERFUL YOUNG ACTRESSES WHO ARE JUST GORGEOUS AND ENJOYING THIS EXPERIENCE OF ACTING GOING INTO FULFILLING CAREERS AND STANDING UP FOR THEMSELVES AND EACH OTHER AND NOT BEING AFRAID TO SAY, HANG ON A MINUTE, YOU CAN'T SAY THAT ABOUT ME.

THAT'S NOT NICE.

AND IT'S A WONDERFUL THING TO THINK THAT I MIGHT HAVE, YOU KNOW, BEEN A PART OF IGNITING THAT DISCUSSION AND MAKING SURE THAT THOSE CONVERSATIONS CONTINUE TO HAPPEN BECAUSE IT REMAINS TO BE SPECTACULARLY IMPORTANT.

>> KATE WINSLET, THANK YOU SO MUCH INDEED.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> AND WE TURN NOW FROM THAT FEMALE PIONEER TO ANOTHER.

A TRAILBLAZER IN TELEVISION NEWS.

CONNIE CHUNG WAS ONE OF THE FIRST WOMEN AND FIRST ASIAN AMERICAN WOMAN TO ANCHOR AN AMERICAN NEWSCAST.

HER MEMOIR "CONNIE" IS OUT.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIAN AND CONNIE CHUNG, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> THANK YOU, WALTER.

HAPPY TO BE WITH YOU.

>> YOUR BOOK IS ABOUT BREAKING GENDER BARRIERS IN PART.

ONE OF THE FIRST CHAPTERS IS CALLED MALE ENVY.

I REALIZED I COULD BE THE SON MY PARENTS DESPERATELY WANTED.

TELL ME ABOUT THAT.

>> IT'S TRUE, WALTER.

I -- I KNOW THAT MY FATHER HAD WRITTEN ME A LETTER WHEN I WAS IN THE NEWS BUSINESS ALREADY AND HE SAID, MAYBE YOU CAN CARRY ON THE NAME CHUNG THE WAY SONS DO.

AND I SUDDENLY REALIZED BECAUSE THEY HAD LOST THREE BOYS AS INFANTS, THEY DESPERATELY WANTED A SON.

LE SO I THOUGHT I WOULD SOLIDIFY THAT NAME IN HISTORY THE WAY MALES CARRY ON THE LAST NAME OF THE FAMILY NAME IN PERPETUITY.

I TOOK IT SERIOUSLY.

AND I TOOK THE WHOLE MALE THING SERIOUSLY.

THAT'S WHY MY FIRST CHAPTER IS MALE ENVY.

I ENIED WHAT MEN COULD DO IN ANY CORPORATION, IN ANY BUSINESS.

THEY COULD COMMAND RESPECT JUST BY VIRTUE OF BEING A MAN, AND I WANTED TO GAIN THAT KIND OF RESPECT AUTOMATICALLY.

>> YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU SAY YOU WERE BOTH A WOMAN AND CHINESE, IN THE BOOK YOU REFER TO THAT AS A TWOFER.

WAS THAT BOTH A GOOD THING AND A BAD THING?

>> YES, IT WAS.

I -- IT WAS PRIMARILY -- FOR ME IT WAS A WOMAN'S BATTLE BECAUSE WOMEN WERE JUST NOT -- ACTUALLY NOT ACCEPTABLE.

WE WERE -- WE WERE VERY MUCH FORCED UPON CORPORATIONS, UPON NEWS ORGANIZATIONS TO BE HIRED THANKS TO THE CIVIL RIGHTS LAW OF 1964 AND ALSO BECAUSE OF LAWSUITS THAT SEEMED TO BE CREEPING ONTO THE CORPORATE LANDSCAPE.

AND UNFORTUNATELY FOR THE CORPORATIONS, THEY HAD TO COUGH UP JOBS FOR WOMEN.

MINORITIES WERE STRONG, BUT IT WAS PRIMARILY BLACK GROUPS THAT WERE PUSHING HARD.

ASIAN GROUPS HAVE NEVER BEEN ON THE MAP FOR AGGRESSIVE EQUALITY.

>> HOW DID THIS AFFECT THE WAY YOU PRESENTED YOURSELF ON TV?

YOU SAY IN THE BOOK, I BECAME AGGRESSIVE, TOUGH, BODY, EXTREMELY COMPETITIVE.

YES, I LOOKED LIKE A LOTUS BLOSSOM, YOU WRITE, BUT I TALKED ALIKE A SAILOR.

>> IT WAS MY WAY OF CREATING AN ARMOR BECAUSE MY APPROACH WAS SIMPLY THAT I GREW UP A VERY, VERY SHY, DEMEUER CHINESE LITTLE GIRL, AND IN SCHOOL I KIND OF SOUGHT STUDENT GOVERNMENT POSITIONS.

THAT SORT OF GAVE ME THE COURAGE TO STAND UP AND SPEAK FOR MYSELF.

WELL, WHEN I GOT INTO THE NEWS BUSINESS AND REALIZED WHAT AN AGGRESSIVE BUSINESS IT WAS, THAT REPORTERS HAD TO STEP OUT OF THEIR NORMAL LANES AND -- JUST TO ENGAGE IN BEHAVIOR THAT PROBABLY WASN'T SOMETHING THEIR MOTHER WANTED THEM TO DO.

AND SO I -- I TOOK THAT ON, BUT I TOOK PAGES FROM THE MALE PLAYBOOK.

I KNEW THAT I NEEDED TO WALK INTO A ROOM AND OWN IT.

I KNEW THAT I NEEDED TO BE STRONG AND AGGRESSIVE, SO I DID THAT, BUT IN THE PROCESS I ALSO DEVELOPED A POTTY MOUTH.

AND I'M NOT PROUD OF IT, BUT IT WAS MY -- I DON'T KNOW, IT WAS A FUNNY THING.

I JUST FELT LIKE IF I COULD TALK TRASH THE WAY THE MEN TALKED TRASH, THEN MAYBE I COULD BE ONE OF THE BOYS.

>> ONE OF THE SCENES EARLY ON IN THAT 1972, THE FAMOUS McGOVERN CAMPAIGN, TIMOTHY CROUSE DOES THE BOYS ON THE BUS.

YOU'RE THE ONE WHO ISN'T THE BOY AND YOU DON'T HANG AROUND THE BAR WITH EVERYBODY ELSE AT THE WAYFAIR HOTEL UNTIL YOU REALIZE YOU HAVE TO CHANGE THE WAY YOU ACT.

TELL ME ABOUT THAT.

THE.

>> WELL, I WAS -- AS -- AS TIMOTHY CROUSE SAID IN HIS BOOK, I WAS ALWAYS IN MY ROOM TUCKED INTO BED.

AND YOU KNOW, WALTER, I WOULD CALL THE -- IT WAS WAY BEFORE CELL PHONES, WAY BEFORE WE COULD GET NEWS AUTOMATICALLY JUST BY TAPPING OUR LITTLE PHONE, I WOULD CALL FIRST THING IN THE MORNING, I'D CALL THE OVERNIGHT DESK AT CBS NEWS IN WASHINGTON AND I'D SAY, WHAT HAPPENED?

ANYTHING HAPPEN OVERNIGHT?

ANY STORIES BREAK IN THE MORNING?

WHAT'S IN THE WASHINGTON POST?

WHAT'S IN "THE NEW YORK TIMES"?

WHAT'S IN THE "BOSTON GLOBE" AND "L.A. TIMES"?

AND HE WAS READING THE WIRE SERVICES.

HE COULD TELL ME ABOUT ANY STORY THAT HAD OCCURRED OVERNIGHT.

I WOULD BE POISED TO STICK A MICROPHONE IN GEORGE McGOVERN'S FACE, THE DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE, 1972, AND I WOULD QUESTION HIM ABOUT IT.

AND ALL THE BLEARY-EYED REPORTERS WHO HAD BEEN AT THE BAR ALL NIGHT WERE JUST LISTENING BECAUSE THEY KNEW IT MIGHT BE THE STORY OF THE DAY.

WHEN I REALIZED THAT THOSE BOYS IN THE BAR WERE BREAKING STORIES, I THOUGHT, HOW DID THEY DO THAT?

AND IT SUDDENLY DAWNED ON ME, THE CAMPAIGN WORKERS ARE SPILLING THE BEANS IN THE BAR.

SO I ENDED MY EARLY OVERNIGHTS, WENT TO THE BAR AND TRIED TO DRINK THEM UNDER THE TABLE TOO.

>> YOU WERE VERY DETERMINED AND SO WAS YOUR CO-ANCHOR AT THE CBS EVENING NEWS, DAN RATHER?

TELL ME ABOUT THE STORY OF OKLAHOMA CITY WHERE IT CAME TO A HEAD?

>> YES, I DO THINK IT WAS INEVITABLE THAT IT WOULD CLASH INTO A BATTLE ROYALE.

WHAT HAPPENED WITH OKLAHOMA CITY WAS THAT I HAPPENED TO BE ON THE WEST COAST AND I LEARNED VERY QUICKLY THAT THE BOMBING IN OKLAHOMA CITY HAD OCCURRED SO I CALLED THE OFFICE IN NEW YORK AND SAID, DO YOU WANT ME TO GO?

BECAUSE AS REPORTERS, AS SOON AS WE HEAR ABOUT A BREAKING STORY, WE -- WE WANT TO GO THERE.

WE DON'T RUN FROM IT.

THE CBS HEADQUARTERS IN NEW YORK SENT ME TO OKLAHOMA CITY.

AT THE SAME TIME, DAN RATHER WAS ON VACATION IN TEXAS, WHICH IS HIS HOME, AND IT WAS A TIME BEFORE CELL PHONES.

IT WAS VERY EASY TO BE OUT OF TOUCH.

AND THEY TRIED TO CALL HIM BUT HE -- OR CONTACT HIM AND THEY COULD NOT GET TO HIM.

SO THERE I WAS.

I WAS THE FIRST ONE ON THE GROUND IN OKLAHOMA CITY.

THEY HAD SENT A REPORTER FROM NEW YORK NAMED SCOTT PELLEY.

WE WERE THE FIRST ONES ON THE GROUND.

WE NOT ONLY BROKE INTO REGULAR PROGRAMMING TO REPORT ABOUT THE HORRIFIC BOMBING CAUSED BY TIMOTHY McVEIGH, BUT I WAS THE ONLY SOLE ANCHOR OF THE BIG THREE, ABC, NBC, AND CBS, TO BE ANCHORING THAT NIGHT FROM THE SCENE.

CBS WAS VERY PROUD THAT WE WERE SO QUICK, SO FAST.

DAN RATHER WAS NOT HAPPY BECAUSE HE FELT THAT HE HAD BEEN ON EVERY BIG BREAKING STORY FOR YEARS.

I HAD NO IDEA THAT ALL THIS DRAMA WAS GOING ON.

WHEN I CAME BACK TO NEW YORK TWO DAYS LATER AFTER ANCHORING AND DOING SPECIAL REPORTS IN OKLAHOMA CITY I DISCOVERED A VERY BAD SCENE, THAT DAN WAS IN FACT FURIOUS THAT HE HAD NOT BEEN SENT AND IN FACT I HAD BEEN SENT, BUT THERE HAD BEEN A PATTERN, WALTER, FOR OVER THE PERIOD OF TWO YEARS THAT I WAS CO-ANCHORING THAT ANY TIME I WENT OUT AND COVERED A STORY, DAN WAS NOT HAPPY ABOUT IT AND WANTED -- WANTED TO COVER THAT STORY, TOO.

ULTIMATELY DAN TOLD ME THAT I NEEDED TO STAY IN THE STUDIO AND READ THE TELEPROMPTER AND NOT GO OUT ON STORIES.

IT WAS -- I -- I -- TO ME IT SOUNDED LIKE STAY IN THE KITCHEN AND STAY -- YOU KNOW, STAY HOME.

IT WAS WHERE YOU WOMEN BELONG.

I'M -- I MAY BE TAKING IT TO AN EXTREME, BUT IT WAS, JUST READ THE TELEPROMPTER.

DON'T TRY AND BE -- GET OUT IN THE FIELD.

>> WHEN YOU MOVED TO ABC NEWS THERE ARE TWO OTHER GREAT WOMEN STARS, BARBARA WALTERS AND DIANE SAWYER.

AND YOU SAY YOU SAW THEM WITH YOU AS A POWERFUL TRIUMVERET.

I ENVISIONED WE WOULD BE A SISTERHOOD TAKING ON THE BOYS CLUB.

I FOOLISHLY BELIEVED WOMEN WOULD BE MY COMRADES.

WHAT HAPPENED?

AND WHY?

>> BARBARA AND DIANE WERE IN A BATTLE COMPETING FOR INTERVIEWS THAT WERE EVERY -- I MEAN, LIKE MOVIE STARS, THE GET OF THE DAY.

WHATEVER STORY IS A BIG STORY, THEY WERE BOTH GOING AFTER IT.

AND AT ABC HAD I KNOWN, IF MANAGEMENT HAD TOLD ME THAT I COULD NOT PURSUE STORIES THAT I WANTED TO PURSUE, EVEN IF BARBARA AND DIANE WERE PURSUING THEM, I WOULD NOT HAVE GONE THERE.

IN FACT, I -- IF BARBARA AND DIANE WERE COMPETING FOR AN INTERVIEW OR FOR A STORY, I COULD NOT GO AFTER IT.

IT WAS THE MOST BIZARRE -- THEY WERE BIZARRE RULES, BUT IN MANY WAYS I THOUGHT THEY WOULD WELCOME ME SO THAT WE COULD GANG UP AND FIGHT THE BOYS, BUT IT WAS NOT THE CASE.

IN FACT, BARBARA AND DIANE KIND OF WERE TRYING TO RECRUIT ME SO THAT I COULD BATTLE WITH THE OTHER ONE.

SO IT WAS A PECULIAR SETUP, BUT I THINK I'VE FIGURED OUT WHAT IT WAS ALL ABOUT.

WOMEN THEN AND EVEN BEFORE THEN WERE ONLY ALLOWED A TINY SLIVER OF THE BIG PIE THAT CONSISTED MOSTLY OF MEN.

AND SO SINCE WE HAD TO SHARE THAT TINY SLIVER OF THE PIE, BARBARA AND DIANE WERE BATTLING FOR THE TOP -- THE BIGGEST PORTION OF THAT PIE.

AND I JUST DIDN'T FIT IN.

SO I BACKED OFF.

I DIDN'T -- I DIDN'T WANT TO BE PART OF THAT.

>> YOU WRITE THAT TELEVISION NEWS DEVOLVED IN THE 1990s.

ONE OF THE THEMES IN YOUR BOOK IS THIS TABLOIDIZATION OF NEWS.

YOU WERE KIND OF A PART OF THAT, WHETHER THE O.J.

SIMPSON, OR TANYA HARDING AND NANCY KERRIGAN.

TELL ME, WHY DID IT DEVOLVE AND WHAT DID YOU FEEL ABOUT THAT SORT OF TABLOID CULTURE HITTING NATIONAL NEWS?

>> THE PROBLEM THAT CAUSED THE NEWS TO -- TELEVISION NEWS TO DEVOLVE, AND ACTUALLY NEWSPAPERS AND PRINT AS WELL, WAS THE FACT THAT PARTICULARLY IN TELEVISION, THE FLEE NETWORKS, ABC, NBC, AND CBS, WERE TAKEN OVER BY COMPANIES THAT NO LONGER BELIEVED IN THE VALUE OF JOURNALISM.

WHAT HAPPENED WAS THEY WANTED TO MAKE MONEY, CONSEQUENTLY, EACH OF THE NETWORKS WANTED TO GET VIEWERS INTO THE TENT.

AND THE WAY TO GET VIEWERS INTO THE TENT WAS TO DO POP CULTURE.

INTERVIEWS WITH MOVIE STARS.

INTERVIEWS WITH SOMEONE WHO SUDDENLY ANNOUNCED SOMETHING THAT EVERYBODY WANTED TO KNOW ABOUT, BUT IT MAY NOT BE A SAVORY SUBJECT.

SO SUDDENLY WE FOUND OURSELVES INTO THIS TABLOID NUVEAU, AND I FOUND THAT THE MEN WOULD NOT TRY AND GET THESE INTERVIEWS.

I THEN WAS ASKED -- NOT ASKED BUT TOLD THAT DAN RATHER WOULD NOT TOUCH THE O.J.

SIMPSON STORY, THAT"60 MINUTES" PEOPLE WOULD NOT TOUCH IT.

THEY TOLD ME I NEEDED TO GO AFTER AN O.J.

CHARACTER BECAUSE BARBARA WALTERS WAS GETTING THIS, DIANE SAWYER WAS GETTING THAT.

I THOUGHT, SO WHAT.

THEY SAID, NOBODY ELSE WILL AT CNBC.

-- CBS.

YOU HAVE TO DO IT.

>> YOU INTERVIEWED DONALD TRUMP.

DO YOU THINK THE TABLOIDIZATION HAS BROUGHT US CHARACTERS LIKE DONALD TRUMP TO THE FLOOR?

>> YOU'RE RIGHT, I INTERVIEWED HIM VERY RELUCTANTLY.

THIS WAS A TABLOID KING.

HE WAS TOUTING HIS REAL ESTATE LONG BEFORE HE DECIDED TO RUN FOR PRESIDENT.

AND I WAS WITH THE MAGAZINE PROGRAM.

I WAS THE ONLY REPORTER ON IT.

THE EXECUTIVE PRODUCER SAID, WE HAVE AN INTERVIEW WITH DONALD TRUMP.

I HAD BEEN TRAVELING ALL OVER THE COUNTRY AND I ONLY HAD ONE DAY HOME WHEN I WOULD TAPE THE PROGRAM AND DO THE SUNDAY NEWS.

I SAID, I DON'T WANT TO INTERVIEW HIM.

WHY ARE WE INTERVIEWING HIM?

HE'S JUST A TABLOID BLOVIATOR.

HE SAID, LOOK, WE HAVE TO FILL THE PROGRAM.

I SAID, WHY WITH THAT?

WHY DON'T WE FILL IT WITH SOMETHING ELSE?

IT'S EASY.

PLEASE GO DO IT.

HE'S ALREADY AGREED.

AND THERE I WAS.

AT THE TIME I DIDN'T SEE THE VALUE OF IT, BUT ONCE AGAIN THEY SAID, WELL, BARBARA WALTERS INTERVIEWED HIM, WHY DON'T YOU?

YOU KNOW, I JUST DIDN'T -- I -- I DIDN'T ENJOY GROVELING FOR THESE SORT OF CELEBRITY INTERVIEWS.

NEITHER DID THE MEN.

THE MEN THOUGHT IT WAS BENEATH THEM.

>> TELL ME ABOUT GENERATION CONNIE.

>> IT WAS THE MOST WONDERFUL REVELATION FOR ME THAT I COULD EVER HAVE IMAGINED.

A YOUNG WOMAN NAMED CONNIE WONG COLD EMAILED ME, SHE TOLD ME SHE WAS NAMED AFTER ME.

I TALKED TO HERR ON THE PHONE.

SHE FOUND -- YES, SHE SAID, SHE HAD -- HER PARENTS HAD ASKED HER WHAT NAME WOULD YOU LIKE TO HAVE?

YOU HAVE TO HAVE AN AMERICAN NAME.

SHE KNEW ONLY WHAT SHE SAW ON TELEVISION.

SHE SAID, CONNIE OR ELMA.

THANKFULLY THEY CHOSE CONNIE.

U.C.

BERKELEY.

SHE WAS IN A -- THE CAFETERIA AND SOMEONE SAID, CONNIE, CONNIE WONG, AND SHE TURNED AROUND, BECAUSE THERE'S SO MANY ASIANS AT U.C.

BERKLEY.

THE SHE DISCOVERED THE PHENOMENON OF THE GENERATION OF CONNIES.

SHE WROTE A SUNDAY "NEW YORK TIMES" OPINION SECTION, AND IT WAS THE MOST BEAUTIFULLY WRITTEN STORY OF HOW ASIAN PARENTS NAMED THEIR BABY DAUGHTERS CONNIE AFTER ME.

I COULDN'T IMAGINE.

I HAD NO -- NO IDEA THAT THIS WAS GOING ON.

I WAS JUST DOING MY JOB, WALTER.

I WAS GOING DAY BY DAY TRYING TO CLIMB MY WAY UP THE LADDER.

AND I HAD NO IDEA WHO WAS ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE CAMERA WATCHING.

I CAME TO THE STARK REALIZATION THAT MY HUSBAND WAS RIGHT.

HE SAID I WAS THE JACKIE ROBINSON OF NEWS.

AND I THINK I FINALLY CAN GET MY ARMS AROUND THE IDEA AND KIND OF BELIEVE THAT MY HUSBAND WAS RIGHT FOR THE FIRST TIME.

>> CONNIE CHUNG, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU, WALTER.

>>> WHAT A LOVELY STORY.

AND FINALLY TONIGHT, SOME UNEXPECTED TURBULENCE IN THE SKIES.

AFTER REACHING CRUISING ALTITUDE THINGS GOT BUMPY FOR PASSENGERS ON A RECENT QUANTUS FLIGHT.

THE R RATED MOVIE, DADDYO WAS SHOWN ON EVERY SCREEN ON THE PLANE.

THE FILM STARRING SEAN PENN HAS NUDITY AND QUITE A FEW RACY TEXT MESSAGES.

AUDIBLE GASPS COULD BE HEARD THROUGHOUT THE FLIGHT UNTIL THE CABIN CREW MANAGED TO SWITCH SCREENS OVER TO THE MORE FAMILY FRIENDLY "INSIDE OUT 2."

QUANTUS HAS HAD TO APOLOGIZE TO PASSENGERS.

THERE IS A FLIGHT THAT REALLY TOOK OFF.

>>> IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.