Oscar-Nominated “Flee” and the Relentless Trauma of Refugees

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR: Now, the United Nations says 10 million Ukrainians have fled their homes either internally displaced or across borders. It seems an age ago now, but only seven months ago NATO pulled out of Afghanistan. It fell to the Taliban. And over 300,000 became refugees and many more are trying to. Indeed, wars have forced Afghans to plea for the past 40 years. Now, there’s an animated movie called “Flee” about a young man called Amin and his journey to Denmark. And it’s won three Oscar nominations. The Danish director Jonas Poher Rasmussen talks with Hari Sreenivasan about his film and the similarities and also the stark differences with today’s European refugees.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HARI SREENIVASAN: Christiane, thanks. Jonas Poher Rasmussen, thank you for joining us. First, for people who might not have heard of or seen the film, give us kind of a nutshell summary, if you can.

JONAS POHER RASMUSSEN, DIRECTOR, “FLEE”: So, “Flee” is an animated documentary about a very different man who I met when I was 15 and he was 16. And he arrived to my Danish hometown all by himself from Afghanistan and stayed in foster care family, just around the corner from where I lived. And I was, of course, already been thinking, curious about how and why he had come, but he didn’t want to talk about it. And this story kind of became this black box in our friendship and within him. And it stayed like that until nine years ago when he finally started talking about it. And that’s what you see in the film.

SREENIVASAN: And so, when was that moment where you figured out that not only is this good for a film, but there’s just been this huge part of your friend’s life that you’ve never known?

RASMUSSEN: I knew all along that there was a huge part of his life that I didn’t know anything about, because I had asked him, and he just didn’t want to talk about it. But if it was going to be a film, you know, that was a process of him starting to open up. And slowly, you know, I would experience his testimony and see, OK, oh, my God, this is — he went through so many things in his childhood and his youth that he hadn’t told anyone, and here also, I have it, and he helped to, you know, make it into an animated film.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Where is your father? Can we just talk about we start?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Yes, of course.”

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Some things are to talk about. It’s still tough, but I need to come to terms with them. It’s my past, I can’t run away from it, and I don’t want to. I might be ready in half a year, a year.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Of course. We’ll take it at your pace.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SREENIVASAN: My question is why decide to do this as an animated film?

RASMUSSEN: Just different reasons. You know, one thing was what your hand of thumb is Amin telling these stories for the very first time, and it’s — you know, it’s his life trauma and these things are not easy for him to talk about. So, he wasn’t able to be, you know, in the public eye with these stories. So, the fact that he could be anonymous behind the animation was really what enabled him to start opening up. But also, you know, it’s a story that mostly takes place in the past. So, how do you make the past come back to live? And here, the animation was really a good tool to kind of revitalize his childhood at home and (INAUDIBLE) in the ’80s and Moscow in the ’90s. And also, it’s really sort of about memory and trauma. And with the animation, we could really go into these experiences, these very traumatic experiences and be a lot more expressive and surreal about these things where, you know, it’s not about what things look like what happened, it’s about the emotion he has inside and what the animation would really go into that.

SREENIVASAN: And we’ve witnessing refugee outflows from Syria for the past several years as people try to cross the Mediterranean. Here in this film, there’s a scene that I want to play here of the family getting on a boat that should not be holding as many people to try to go cross the Baltic Sea. Let’s take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): So, you’re bailing out water in the pouring rain.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): We need to keep bailing it out, because it keeps getting in. The boat doesn’t even have a radio. So, we can’t call for help. No one knows how to swim either. I think it would have been easier if it was just me. My mother was terrified. Whenever she talked about death, she always mentioned water. Dying in water, drowning was her worse nightmare.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): What’s going through your head?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Who do I save first, if the boat goes down?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SREENIVASAN: When he was telling you about what it was like on that boat, what he was going through, was that a particularly emotional and traumatic event for him to retell?

RASMUSSEN: It was. It really was, and you can also sense it in the scene in a sequence that, you know, things start to kind of stop making sense to him, you know? He’s on that boat with his mother and there’s so much going on, and the ship is sinking and he’s there. He’s been a young teenager and he’s thinking like, who do I save? But he that knows he can’t swim, you know, But things just don’t make any sense anymore, and that’s kind of where we – – like, we could use the animation really to just kind of show these experiences of where we (INAUDIBLE) kind of collapses and you’re just kind of inside a very traumatic experience. And it was definitely very difficult for him to talk about and it was also hard, you know, for me being a friend sitting next to him and listening to these stories.

SREENIVASAN: There’s also a lot of layers of just plain old power dynamics at work, throughout the different societies he’s inhabiting, throughout the transit that he’s going through, whether it’s corrupt police officers or, you know, institutions like passport control, et cetera, the amount of power that comes with a tiny piece of paper, whether you have this piece of paper or not, and what kinds of rights and privileges you’re afforded as you cross these invisible lines.

RASMUSSEN: Yes. And, you know, I mean, he’s been through all this in an — at an age where, you know, having a home, having someplace where you feel safe, where you don’t have people chasing you, you know, is so crucial. But he didn’t have that. And to always feel unsafe in this very kind of formative years has really impacted him in such a profound way. And, you know, he’s been afraid for many, many years afterwards, and carried these things around with him ever since.

SREENIVASAN: He also seemed to have, at least in portions of the film, a layer of kind of almost survivor’s guilt, that look at what my brother has done for me. Look at what these other people have done, and should I allow myself the freedom to enjoy something?

RASMUSSEN: Yes. And that’s very prominent, and I think especially, you know, with what happened in Afghanistan and somewhere else and what’s going on in Ukraine right now, to see that, you know, millions and millions of people are experiencing the same things he did, like the sense of guilt is always there, and it is difficult for him to enjoy certain things, and there’s always this kind of this voice in his head saying, you should be able to do something more to help people, do something else, because there were people who helped you out. Your family helped you out. So, it’s always there. It’s always going to be there.

SREENIVASAN: How much do you think that the difficulty he had crossing from Afghanistan, concealing his geographic and national identity fused with concealing that he was gay? I mean, it seems like there were so many layers of secrets that this young man had to keep.

RASMUSSEN: No, but I think they’re very — they kind of mirror each other, those two stories, you know, of him always having to hide parts of himself, you know, having to flee parts of himself, not being able to be honest. You know, when you keep secrets, you tend to keep people at a certain distance. And because you’re afraid of getting exposed. And when you keep people in the distance, it’s difficult to like create close connections. And I think it’s so important for human beings to have close connections. So, it’s — I think those stories are totally aligned.

SREENIVASAN: As Kabul fell, and you saw this massive exodus of Afghans again, what went through Amin’s mind or what have you been talking about?

RASMUSSEN: No, but we were in touch all the time at that point and he was very affected by it. You know, he still had relatives in Kabul at the time. So, of course, that. But also just being reminded of his own journey again and seeing a new generation of Afghans getting pushed out of the country and probably having to go through the same limbo he was in and not being able to choose their own path in life. It affected him profoundly.

SREENIVASAN: Now, there’s a scene that when they’re, well, not quite rescued, but basically the equivalent of a cruise liner shows up next to the rickety boat they’re on, and you see the passengers there taking photos and looking at them, but there’s this moment where once their fate has been sort of decided that they’ll be sent back to Estonia or the Estonian border patrol is going to come for them, that those tourists just kind of walk away from the rails. I wonder if we aren’t those passengers on this cruise ship as we see these images over and over again for the past several years of migrants crossing on boats across the Mediterranean or elsewhere.

RASMUSSEN: No, but totally, and I felt the same one when Amin told me that story, you know, I felt like being one of those — the tourists on the cruise ship, and it really crystallizes the situation of refugees on the second boat and kind of the West, you know, on the cruise ship sailing by. And I really hope, you know, right now, it’s wonderful to see how the West and Europe kind of brought us open and arms and hearts opened to the Ukrainian refugees, and I hope this is going to be a general change in how we perceive refugees in the future, if they’re from Ukraine or Afghanistan or Syria or wherever people are in need of help and in need of a place to go home.

SREENIVASAN: I’m careful how I say this, not to take away from any of the trauma that the Ukrainian refugees are going through right now and that — in any way diminish how other countries receive them. But I wonder also if Amin, yourself and others noticed the difference in how the world is perceiving refugees from Ukraine versus the refugees that are fleeing everywhere else? You know, that there’s kind of maybe — I don’t know how it is. Is it a different perception of humanity, their humanity and ours?

RASMUSSEN: I think there’s something about when it feels like it’s in your backyard. I think people relate to it more. But they shouldn’t, of course. You know, its universal story, and just to understand how alike we are in the — from — if you’re from Ukraine or the Middle East, or Myanmar, you know, it’s kind of — people are — have the same needs, hopes and dreams for the future, and hope for having a home. Wanting to feel safe no matter where they come from. And so, I really hope that because — you know, to try to see right now in Ukraine and a new surge of refugees coming there and to see how people open their doors to that, I hope it’s going to change people’s perspective on. OK. But this is — you know, we are fellow human beings, we’re all connected and we need to help each other

SREENIVASAN: Yes. I mean, you know, it’s — you juxtapose the hardships that Amin and his family went through to try to cross into a border, and you see these amazing and wonderful and heartfelt stories about Ukrainian nationals going into Poland and being met with open arms. And even today, you see there are some stories — there was one in the New York Times recently about kind of two different refugees. One from Sudan in Ukraine, another one from Ukraine, was Ukrainian, trying to get into Poland and how difficult and how different the processes were and how they were treated.

RASMUSSEN: Yes. And, you know, it’s — I don’t know what to say to that really, you know. It becomes very obvious what it is, you know. And I just — I really hope that — because what’s going on with how people accept refugees from Ukraine right now is so wonderful, you know, and I hope that people understand that we need to do this to every refugee.

SREENIVASAN: How is Amin now? I mean, as you watch the film, you realize that his family exists, but they’re all split up. Have they stayed apart?

RASMUSSEN: Yes. You know, they all have different stories. They have to stick to. So, they all kind of live different lives. And, you know, it’s so many years ago now. So, now, to have their separate lives in different countries, but they do meet up, you know. They can meet up and do celebrate, you know, birthdays and weddings and what not. And you know, Amin is in a good place now. He succeeded in building a good life for himself and his husband and his family, and he’s — all these things, he will, of course, always carry around, and it would always affect him, but he feels safe now and he’s in a good place

SREENIVASAN: How do you get people who are watching this film not to take for granted that we are probably watching this in a safe place? That we — that there are so many people who are struggling just to have a sense of home?

RASMUSSEN: I think, you know, what I want to see with this film is really for people to understand that you shouldn’t take this for granted. That there are people around the world who don’t have that and who are looking for it. So, for me, I think the act of sharing Amin’s story, first of all, for Amin to share his story and for people to get a nuanced idea of what the refugee experience is and to understand how important it is to have a sense of belonging, of a sense of — a place in the world where you can be who you are with everything it entails. Because, you know, “Flee,” is, of course, about physical fight, going from Afghanistan to Denmark, but it’s about a guy who always had to flee parts of himself, you know, being young and gay in Afghanistan, he couldn’t be openly so, and then, arriving in Denmark, and he couldn’t be honest about his past. So, he always had to, you know, flee parts of himself. So, the fact, you know, that this is a story about finding home, finding a place in the world where you can be who you are, with everything, with your sexuality, with your past and everything else, I think it’s quite universal story and something that most people can relate to.

SREENIVASAN: You know, here we are right now seeing these people from Ukraine fleeing by any means possible, by foot, by car, often just taking the clothes on their backs and maybe a couple of items. As you watch this film of these traumatized families, how do you think that these experiences are going to be affecting them five years out, 10 years out? Because as you show in this film, this is a 30-yearlong story, and the central character is still living with it for most of his life.

RASMUSSEN: I really think it depends on how they are received. You know, if they are received with open arms and feel like they are welcomed, I think there’s a possibility for them to share and heal. You know, “Flee” is really a story about, you know, listening and sharing and healing, and if people are welcomed with open arms, allowed to be themselves and allowed to share their experiences, I think there’s a pathway to kind of move on. I think that’s really crucial.

SREENIVASAN: Jonas Poher Rasmussen, director of the film “Flee,” which is Oscar nominated, thank you for joining us.

RASMUSSEN: Thanks for having me.