Rachel Vindman on Democracy and Authoritarianism

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR: We’ve been talking about the rise of autocrats around the world. And our next guest is not afraid to call one of them out. She is Rachel Vindman, whose husband, Alexander, was thrust into the national spotlight after blowing the whistle on President Donald Trump’s alleged abuse of power. And in her new podcast, “The Suburban Women Problem,” she talks about how her break-up with the Republican Party represents a larger trend of suburban women following suit. Here she is speaking to Michel Martin.

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MICHEL MARTIN, CONTRIBUTOR: Thanks, Christiane. Rachel Vindman, thank you so much for joining us.

RACHEL VINDMAN, OPINION COLUMNIST, USA TODAY: Thank you for having me. This is an honor.

MARTIN: So, you’re living your life, you’re a military spouse, you’re obviously very proud of your husband’s service and the work that he’s doing. You’ve lived in countries around the world. You’re back here. And all of a sudden, like everything changes for you. It just — could you just walk us through like those first few days where you realized, I don’t even, holy cow, like this is a tsunami coming at us. Like what was that like?

VINDMAN: The first few days were pretty awful. I’m not going to sugarcoat it. There was a lot of support, an on (INAUDIBLE) support, of course. But then, the trolls started coming. And a little bit before that, my husband was called in by the chief of staff of the army, General James McConville. And at that moment, that conversation, when he told me what happened in that conversation, I knew that his career in the army was over. It took him a lot longer to realize it. But I could tell from what General McConville said to him, what he didn’t say, I knew his career was over. And then, the next day is really when Don Jr. started in and there was someone else online who was saying some things that weren’t true and Alex is an extremely forgiving person. And he is like, look, Rachel, this person, he’s a combat veteran, you know, maybe there’s more going on, it’s not true. Let’s just leave it. It will just go away. And then, the next day, the president was going somewhere. He actually quoted the guy or alluded to the allegations that were being made. And I just thought, you know, I was trying to tell him, it doesn’t matter what the truth is. Have you not been watching? Have you not been paying attention for the past, you know, three years that this man has been, you know, in the — well, you know, that he’s been running for president and president. The truth is immaterial. If they want to destroy you, if they want to destroy us, they will and nothing else will matter. So, it was very, very scary.

MARTIN: So, what was that like for you? I mean, were you like checking your phone constantly to see like what the latest terrible thing was being said? Were your friends all calling you to ask if you were OK? Like what was that like for you?

VINDMAN: Yes. I mean, at that point, I think we enjoyed, you know, a lot of bipartisan support because even the attacks that were made on Alex, I mean, people knew it was patently untrue even if they disagreed with what he did or how he did it, but, you know, because he was, you know, a member of the military in service, he certainly couldn’t do media and speak out. So, it was very hard to not have the truth out, to not be able — for someone to be making allegations and saying about you and just having zero ability to respond, and that was really frustrating to me. At the same time, I know the truth. I know who we are. And because — you know, throughout our relationship and time together, that has been tough. We’ve had to lean on each other a lot of times. So, I found, you know, comfort in that, and of course, you know, my closest family and friendships. But it is — it was frustrating, very, very frustrating.

MARTIN: Were you ever afraid? Because one of the things these trolls are known to do is to threaten people.

VINDMAN: Many times. Many times I was afraid. So, definitely, after the closed-door testimony and then after the public testimony, in particular, there were Senator Marsha Blackburn’s tweets, which the very witty Vindman is the whistleblower’s handler and other comments like that. She really has a way with words. But those comments, especially, as stupid as they were, definitely led to an uptick in rhetoric and threats. We did get some letters to our house and we definitely — our local community — you know, the army made sure that we, you know, have protection. But I was very, very scared for my husband’s safety. I mean, when he would go to work, I was afraid for him at work in his work environment because they knew everywhere he was going and what he would do. I didn’t even know the extent of it, which is probably best until later of all the ways that they were making his life very miserable. And — but fortunately, I guess they left us out of it at home.

MARTIN: So, now, you’ve made the decision to actually keep speaking out. Talk about that. You’ve become a columnist for “USA Today.” You have a podcast, which we’re going to talk about in a minute, where you kind of grapple with some of these issues. You know, some people would just kind of like, I’m done with this. When that chapter is closed, you’re like, please close the door again. I never want to talk about politics and I’ll just disappear. That was not your choice. Tell me more about that, like why?

VINDMAN: Because this moment, this fight that we have is ongoing and I have a platform and I think it’s my duty to use my platform to speak out. It’s – – sorry.

MARTIN: What are you feeling right now?

VINDMAN: You know, it’s difficult. It’s — this is always a difficult question for me to answer of the why, and I guess, you know, as I said to my first “USA Today” column, just the most authentic version of myself right now. I feel that I came to on the sidelines. This is the country that I love. I gave up my career ambitions. I gave up a lot when I married Alex to be a military spouse and I did so gladly because I thought it was an extension of his service to our country. And I know a lot of military spouses feel that way. But when I realized that just a regular person’s voice could have a difference, I felt I had to use it.

MARTIN: How did the podcast start?

VINDMAN: So, the podcast is really just women talking to women and having discussions. And that is something I can completely relate to. And I often liken it to, you know, our bus stop moms’ group. So, you know, people have come and gone and moved. My daughter is in fifth grade. We’ve — I’ve been doing the bus stop thing for six years. And, you know, everyone comes from different backgrounds and their different political views, but we have one really key thing in common is that we all have children. They go to the same school and we care about them a lot. That’s a pretty big base from which, you know, you can talk about a lot of things on that level. And if you talk about, you know, you start disagreeing, as you build up, then it’s — I respect those women that I have made those relationships with so much and I think that there’s a place there that we can talk to each other and even have the hard conversations. And I think as a nation, we can do that as well. But I really like to focus on women. It just is — it’s where I feel most comfortable. I — also, in addition to the podcast, I am on the advisory board of the Renew Democracy Initiative, which is a bit more highbrow, I guess. But, I mean, in terms of, you know, what they’re trying to do. But I feel like that’s a place where I can still be me and, you know, still bring my unique perspective, which is with like democracy is being attacked and how can we get people to understand that’s happening. And again, I feel like it’s easiest through conversation.

MARTIN: Well, let’s dig into that for a minute here because that is the vantage point a lot of people are fascinated by. I mean, first of all, just how Donald Trump got elected to begin with. Like how do you understand that? A lot of people still feel like, well, wait a minute, you had the most qualified woman, probably in history, probably the most qualified candidate in history, and people are like, nah. And so — and, you know, picked somebody who had never held public office, had a terrible reputation for racism and misogyny. So, let’s just start there. Like how do you understand it?

VINDMAN: I had definitely already been moving away from the Republican Party, that goes without saying, I guess. But it’s not something that only when it happened to my family. I didn’t have the sense of mediacy (ph). I didn’t have an appreciation for how dire the situation was. And, you know, to the question, why did I think this — how did it land with me and was I surprised? I mean, yes. Since then, what I have learned is a lot of people in our country don’t feel heard. And right, wrong or indifferent, Donald Trump made them feel like someone was listening to them. A lot of people feel very left behind and no one is answering their questions, no one is talking to them.

MARTIN: Let’s fast forward to an election that just happened. I think you live in Virginia.

VINDMAN: Yes, I do.

MARTIN: Yes. And this was one of those races that people were paying a lot of attention to. It was — you know, Virginia is a state that Biden won handedly. And, you know, two years later, Glenn Youngkin, another businessman, first-time candidate, you know, kind of really leaned in on issues that, frankly, some other people considered racist or at least race baiting. So, I just want to point out that Glenn Youngkin, there was a 13-point swing from where — among white women from Joe Biden just two years earlier — I mean, two years later, Glenn Youngkin, as I understand it, went won 50 separate percent of white women’s votes in Virginia compared to 43 percent for McAuliffe. This is according to NBC’s exit polling. So, what do you think happened there?

VINDMAN: I think that Terry McAuliffe didn’t talk to the voters. When he made the gaffe that he said he was not going to have parents in school, the response — the campaign’s response was to have an ad that primarily had teachers. And I sent an e-mail and I said, have you thought about doing an ad with parents, the response from parents? And, you know, I got an e-mail back. Thank you for your feedback. And that was it.

MARTIN: The classic, thank you for your feedback.

VINDMAN: Yes. It’s humbling always, right? And then, the organization that does my podcast, Red White and Blue, which is then, you know, very — they were very active in this election and helping actually local school schoolboard candidates. You know, 72 percent of school board candidates who ran again, crazy right- wing, like anti-CRT nonsense, they won. 72 percent of people won. But you know how they won? They won because they addressed the concerns of the parents. So, we made an ad, very low budget. I mean, it was a good ad, and the campaign actually took our ad, took their ad off with the teachers and put the ad of Virginia moms on. But I think it was just too late to really make a difference. But, you know, fundamentally, I think, unfortunately, Former Governor McAuliffe, didn’t listen to people and didn’t talk to them. Because, you know, here’s the deal, Michel, when people are scared, they’re scared. Whether it’s a real fear or not, whether it’s the culture war, CRT, whatever the case may by, you can’t just say, that doesn’t exist and we’re not going to talk about it. You have to, you know, meet people where they are. You have to talk to people, whether it’s individuals talking to people, politicians also have to talk to people and understand what they want.

MARTIN: You have been very open about the fact that you have left the Republican Party. You said that that was kind of a long time coming. And after what happened to you and your husband and your family, it really wasn’t much of a choice. But at the end of the day, are you more disappointed with the Republicans or the Democrats at this point? Because you’ve had some words about the Democrats too.

VINDMAN: That’s a tough question. I am disappointed in people who don’t see the urgency to protect democracy. So, the Renew Democracy Initiative just published a letter signed by, gosh, I think it’s 50 dissidents from 30 countries around the world who were looking at the United States screaming, shouting, jumping up and down saying, there’s a shark behind you. Get out of the water. And people are still floating around, you know, playing around and splashing around. And people are trying to warn us. They’re on the shore. They’ve been there. They understand. And we’re still going along like nothing is happening. And everything is OK. And I guess, in some ways, I may be on the shore also because I feel that what happened to my family, although it’s probably not going to happen, I mean, it’s a very like specific instance, but I think norms are being eroded. People are being attacked, and you’re not listening. You’re just going on with life because, hey, the economy is OK and it’s probably going to be all right. And, you know, this is —

MARTIN: I have what I want, so I don’t care.

VINDMAN: Yes. Exactly. I mean —

MARTIN: Well, I want to read from one of the things you wrote in one of your columns. You said, as is the case with many, I identify as a one issue voter at this time. When I look at a ballot, the only thing I see is a choice between democracy and a slide toward authoritarianism. Those are very strong words. I mean, unfortunately, we’ve been hearing them so much over the last few years that perhaps it doesn’t strike people as alarmingly as it might have five years ago or even 10 years ago.

VINDMAN: Sure. Yes.

MARTIN: But what can people do?

VINDMAN: They need to vote. That’s really important. But engage. Engage, learn what your elected leaders are saying. I would hope that people are just absolutely appalled by this nonsense of — you know, ask your elected leaders, what are you doing? What are you doing to protect democracy? What are you doing for accountability for January 6th? Meaningful things. What is being done? Are we ever going to have accountability for the, you know, complete tragedy that we saw on January 6th? The attack on our democracy? How many more warnings do you need? And I think, you know, people need to — if they believe in something, if they believe that democracy is worth saving, if they believe that we need leaders of integrity, they need to go out and advocate for it. We had, you know, people who were helping with the McAuliffe campaign. I mean, good candidate or not, again, it goes back to this choice. Is someone who’s going to talk about election integrity? I mean, Glenn Youngkin would not admit that the 2020 election is legitimate. That’s a deal breaker for me. I don’t care what he promised to do. And that right there, we’re done. But, you know — so, we needed more people. But people were saying, oh, maybe he’s not that bad. He’ll be OK. No. If you can’t admit that a free and fair election was indeed free and fair and that we should have had a peaceful transition of power, which we didn’t, then you’re not the candidate for me, and more people need to just say that. Like I’m not even going to engage with you. I’m not even going to listen to what you feel or say if we can’t agree on very basic things. But, you know, I don’t know what Glenn Youngkin personally believes. Maybe he doesn’t believe that as some people have tried to say. But the fact that he was willing to go along with it, I mean, if you can’t stand up for basic things and get elected, then I don’t think you deserve to be an elected official to the United States of America.

MARTIN: But you’re also critical of the Democrats. I mean, you write in “USA Today” in a piece that’s published just this morning, you wrote, too often when a former Republican — future former Republican never-Trumper says something objectionable to a Democrat, their loyalty is immediately questioned. They are loyal to democracy and willing to put in the time and effort to defeat Trumpism. More importantly, if we are going to win, we need their votes. Tell me more about that.

VINDMAN: Every single day on Twitter someone tells me that I’m not progressive enough. That I am new to the party and that I, maybe because of that, shouldn’t have such a say. And it’s not — I mean, it’s not just me. I’m, I guess, a bigger target. But I see people saying it to others all the time. And it’s — there’s so many people who have jumped on to help. You know, it will be great when we get back to talking about tax rates and, you know, other, like those halcyon days of, you know, how much should we spend on the military, et cetera, et cetera. So — but that’s not where we are now. And it’s going to take everyone to win this fight. This fight is the fight — this is still the fight for the soul of America, because the soul of America is democracy and that’s still what we’re fighting for. So, that’s why it’s going to take everyone. And if everyone is going to be on the team, everyone needs to feel like they’re a valued member of the team or they might just not show up to the game, and that’s the worst thing that could happen.

MARTIN: Rachel Vindman, thank you so much talking with us. I hope we’ll talk again. And somehow, I suspect that we will.

VINDMAN: Thank you very much, Michel.