Rev. Sam Rodriguez on the Latinx Response to President Trump

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR: So, sticking with the White House, turning to immigration and looking through the filter of religion with our next guess, the Reverend Samuel Rodrigez. He’s Puerto Rican, he gave his first sermon at just 16 and he quickly rose to prominence among Christian evangelicals. Now, as his Latino community and his church diverge over the actions of President Trump, he talks to our Michel Martin about the hot button issue of immigration and why he hopes for some compromise in Washington.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

MICHEL MARTIN: Reverend Samuel Rodriguez, thank you so much for talking with us. Is it my understanding that, at least within the last sort of five or 10 years, that you had a belief that the evangelical movement on the whole was embracing the idea of immigration reform? Would that be accurate?

REVEREND SAMUEL RODRIGUEZ, CHRISTIAN EVANGELIST: Yes, I’ve been advocating for immigration reform for years. And I mean close to 20 years. I worked with George W. Bush on it, I worked with President Obama eight years on it and now I’m working with President Trump. To be honest, in the beginning, the white evangelical community was the stanches group opposing immigration reform. There was a meeting where I had my white evangelical brothers and sisters around me, we were praying, and one of them actually, at the end of the meeting, said, hey Samuel, why don’t you tell you people to go back home. Now, I didn’t even bring up the issue of immigration, I was just seated there and out of the blue, tell your people, like if I were Moses, to — for your people to go back home. And I was blown away and then Pew and other research studies validated the idea that the stanches group opposing immigration reform were white evangelicals. Now, move the clock forward in 2018, different story. Evangelicals are now supporting immigration reform in a way that protects the border, stops illegal immigration but deals with those that are currently here in a way that’s compassionate and in a way that integrates them into the collective of the American experience.

MARTIN: So, what’s going on?

RODRIGUEZ: It’s a new day.

MARTIN: So, what’s going on with President Trump though? Why is it that you don’t seem to be able to move him on this issue?

RODRIGUEZ: And listen, and we’ve — and as you all know, we’ve had conversations, I gave — and we’ve had conversations with the White House, with the president, I handed in to the president, to the president himself, in his hands, a proposal that I do believe will solve this issue. I think this is doable. Matter of fact, I know it’s doable. There’s a new proposal that I’m giving to president and you’re one of the first ones to hear it. This proposal is a bit edgy and controversial, it is. I take away the issue of citizenship and perpetuity. Let me explain. So, I sit down with Republican leadership, I ask them, what in the world’s going on? Why would you not — what is it? Every single time we have a chance to pass some immigration reform and in private conversations, off-line they would say, Pastor Sam, we have great angst that we are in essence legalizing 10 million Democratic voters. Now, imagine the election we just had for midterms. And in many of the elections, just two, three, four, five, seven, 10,000 votes determined the outcome. So, 10 million new Democratic voters, this would, in essence, seal the deal in — for multiple generations or election cycles for a Democratic party. Republicans have told me, Pastor Sam, the issue is citizenship. So, if we can remove citizenship from the table, if we can provide legal status for those that are currently here undocumented, that are not involved in nefarious activity, that are not dependent on government welfare entitlement, but good hard working, god fearing individuals, right, who have raised their children here, but we remove citizenship, I believe that’s the deal breaker and President Trump if — I’m not saying he will, or he would, I am speculating, based on conversations, anecdotally and directly, I believe the president may very well sign a piece of legislation that will bring forth comprehensive immigration reform if we remove the citizenship component from any sort of deal.

MARTIN: And so, Pastor Sam, tell me why this is acceptable to you. I mean as a – as a person of Puerto Rican heritage, you’ve always been a citizen, your parents are citizen. You know, why – why do you feel that it is for you to trade away the citizenship rights of other people?

RODRIGUEZ: Oh, I’m not trading away absolutely anything. I’ve been advocating, my record is known and my kids are Mexiricans, my grandkids. So I’m – I’ve started preaching in the front of Mexico, Tamaulipas.

MARTIN: OK, but you just said that you are willing to broker a deal where people would not get citizenship.

(CROSSTALK)

RODRIGUEZ: That’s right, because I asked them – because I asked them. I surveyed them. So I got together in Tucson, Arizona. We had over 1,300 individuals from Arizona, intentionally, so we recruited to make sure we had undocumented leaders and followers in that meeting. And I asked them, I said, “What do we have to do?” Here’s what they’re telling me on the Hill from those are opposing immigration reform, is the issue of citizenship. And this is why, they believe it’s the rule of law. You came in here illegally, there has to – there has to be a price to pay. Now if you’re not willing to go back to your country of origin, they’re saying, “How in the world can we, somewhere down the road, grant citizenship to people who came in here illegally when there are those that are willing to come here legally?” It’s just not right, it’s just not fair. So the response was, “Hey, Pastor Sam, we just want legal status. Citizenship is not the number one thing we’re fighting for. We just – we just want to come out of the shadows.” So my point is, I’m not surrendering anything. I am for their own sake. I want these wonderful, god-fearing people who are blessing to our nation and not a curse, I want them to come out of the shadows. But the only way to do this, to get across this line, is to address the issue of coming here illegally. There’s a price that has to be paid. What is that price? If they remove citizenship from the parents, not the children, mind you, not the children.

MARTIN: OK, that was going to be my question.

RODRIGUEZ: So the children – the children would receive citizenship. I don’t care if they came in here illegally, the kids should not pay for the sins of their parents. So does – the kids receive citizenship immediately, the parents do not, and it’s the price they have to pay for coming here illegally. But they’re legal. They have a permanent green card, they could travel around the world, the they could enjoy this wonderful thing called the American experience as pass this heritage from one generation to the other.

MARTIN: And how does that – how does that address the problem, Pastor Sam, because it seems to me that the line is so long now? A lot of these people are never going to see citizenship anyway. So how is that – how is that addressing the issue?

RODIGUEZ: But it’s just a political issue. It’s – the moral issue’s what I’m fighting for. I’m fighting for these people coming out of the shadows. I’m fighting for an end of this unbelievable hyper-rhetoric where they – where it’s always immigrant, immigrant, immigrant. I want to remind the audience, the immigrant community is a blessed community. Yes, there are some bad apples in every single, you know, group, so we can’t just paint, collectively, the immigrant community as this group engaged in nefarious activities, or in rapes or in murders. My goodness, I know this community first hand. As a Puerto Rican, you know, I’m not technically an immigrant. But as a Puerto Rican, I can tell you first hand, as a pastor of undocumented individuals, some of the most hardworking, god-fearing, most beautiful people on the plant are those that are currently undocumented in America. But the political reality is this ship will never sale unless there is a great compromise, and in the spirit of Daniel Webster and John Calhoun and that sort of thing, back from the 1800s, we need to offer a great piece of compromise, and that is the citizenship component.

MARTIN: There was a moment in which, in fact, I recall that you would do a lot of events and conversations with a person who is very prominent in the evangelical movement at one time, Richard Land who was the head of the Southern Baptist Conventions Ethics and Public Policy Commission. Do you think that relationship kind of moved the conversation forward?

RODRIGUEZ: So I began touring the country at different cities, speaking to white evangelicals, telling them, “Hey, we are not a curse. We are your greatest blessing. We are the fasting growing demographic in the Southern Baptist, the Assemblies of God, the Church of God, the Four Square, and so forth. So I would say, “Try to deport us, try to deport Latinos, or immigrants, and you’re deporting the future of American evangelicalism. You are deporting your own future.” This is the most Christian group. Out of – out of 10 people that come to Jesus, that convert everyday, 6.9 are of Latino descent. It’s the growth of the church. So you’re deporting the growth of the church. Once that conversation took place, we saw changes. But in full disclosure, Richard Land – Richard Land – I’m a Latino, right, speaking to a white audience, I’m advocating for my community. But when Richard Land took the podium and he spoke on behalf of immigrants, to me, that was quintessential game changer.

MARTIN: But wouldn’t it also be fair to say that there were political calculations involved as well as demographic calculations, that you adhere to a certain set of conservative social ideas that are also shared by white evangelicals? There’s a lot of compatibility around those views – around abortion rights, for example, around same-sex marriage rights. Do you think that was part of it, too? That –

RODRIGUEZ: Well –

MARTIN: – years ago where people would have said, “well, you know what? These folks are allies in things that we agree with,” and that – was I that kind of a deal?

RODRIGUEZ: Well, no – well, there’s compatibility that I can’t deny on issues, for example, of life. I believe every single life is sacred, creating in the image of God, indeed, religious liberty, of course. I even have a personal belief about limited government. God over man, men over government. With that being said, I never sat down with Richard Land or with White evangelical leaders to deliberate a more strategy of lets get comprehensive immigration reform passed because in order to do so, we’re going to elect Republican candidates. That’s never been part of the strategy. It’s always been independent, but yes. I can’t deny the fact that there is – there’s a lot of coalescing around issues of life and religious liberty where it behooves white evangelistic – as a matter fact, that’s why I don’t get it. I don’t get why Republicans are not like the staunchest supporters of immigration reform. Like 30 percent close to – 29.7 – 30 percent of Latinos still voted for President Trump in spite of all the tweet and rhetoric. Now –

MARTIN: Yes, tell me why. Why is that? Why do you think that –

RODIRIGUEZ: Holy cow, 30 percent! More than Romney! Why? Because of the faith ethos, because of the faith. It’s all about the faith ethos meaning – what does that mean, the faith ethos? It’s about life and religious liberty. So when Hillary Clinton in her last debate talked about abortion in the ninth month I got texts and emails, but I was bombarded with text. I just shifted my vote. I can’t vote. That’s extreme. Abortion in the ninth month? The moment Hillary Clinton endorsed that, she lost a measurable portion of the Latino electorate, enough to switch Pennsylvania and Florida over to the R in Donald Trump –

MARTIN: OK, so let’s talk about Trump. Let’s talk more about Trump, and sorry to cut you off, but preachers or the one group of people –

RODRIGUEZ: No.

MARTIN: – who never get edited, so you know, I have to move one (ph). So on the one hand like a lot of other evangelicals, you agree with him on certain things. On the other hand, he has – it’s not just rhetoric, but policies that you find deeply hurtful and demeaning to people that you care deeply about.

RODRIGUEZ: Yes.

MARTIN: How did you – first of all, I wanted to ask how did you decide to speak at his inauguration? Was that a difficult decision for you?

RODRIGUEZ: No, it was easy as Sunday morning. In the words of Lionel Ritchie, easy as Sunday – it was easy as Sunday morning. It really was. I’m going to tell you why. If Obama would have invited me, I would have done the same thing. And if – so to me, George Bush, Obama, Donald Trump, to me there’s a continuum – a continuum where I advocate for what I believe policies that are critical to the collective American community and to Latinos and the people of faith, and then I walk away from Washington, D.C. I don’t drink the ideological Kool-Aid. I don’t. I don’t drink the partisan Kool-Aid. So, I did –

MARTIN: So it was an occasion of state and you felt that you were there to lift up your own words if –

RODRIGUEZ: No, to be – no, no. Not my words. Quite the opposite. The opposite drove me. You know, 1.1 billion people watching around the world and I have a chance to preach the gospel to 1.1 billion people and lift up the name of my lord and savior, Jesus. Hey, the answer is yes, yes, and amen.

MARTIN: How did you decide what you were going to pray at the inauguration?

RODRIGUEZ: It’s going to seem interesting. I’m going to tell you we prayed and fasted about it. I know it’s going to seem awkward to some of your audience, but I prayed and fasted. I had people around the country, and I wanted to reconcile the country. So I really believe the lord, the holy spirit drove me to Mathew Chapter 5. Let us be light. Blessed are those. The poor, the marginalized, the hurting, the suffering, those that are persecuted for my name’s sake. And that message of unity and reconciliation, that was the message the holy spirit placed in my heart. It is still my message. It’s the reason why I sat down over dinner at the white with the president and vice president, and I sat down next to Ivanka and Jared, and Jared looked at me and said, “Pastor Sam, what’s in your heart?” I said, “do you really want to know?” He said yes. I said racial reconciliation. He said, “all right, how do you do it?” And I went, “let’s begin with prison reform, justice reform. There are people of color suffering right now in jail when other kids not of color, white kids that got off because they had the right attorneys, and young men of color are now in jail in a disproportionate manner. We need sentencing reform. We need justice reform.” That began a conversation as you well know is now emerging us at first steps at (ph). I mean, think about that. That’s now what peace – coming out of the White House that will impact communities of color, but more important African Americans or better yet, more significantly African Americans.

MARTIN: As you know, there were many people who declined to participate in the inauguration. There are many people who continue to resign from or decline to participate in certain of these councils that are put forward by the White House because they don’t want their presence to be seen as an endorsement of this president’s behavior or his policies. Do you have that concern ever? No.

RODRIGUEZ: No, because I was there for President Obama when I disagreed with a great number of his policies, as you well know, and so, how about that? So, to me presence is everything. Remember Dr. King? Dr. King — Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., he would tell us, listen, you have to be present even with the people you disagree with. Matter of fact, that’s when you should really be present. A conversation can change a heart. I want to be there — I want to be there where a conversation can be filled with the grace and love of god, where someone’s heart will change. I believe in that.

MARTIN: Is what — when something happens like, for example, that the people who are being called the caravan, when tear gas was fired at them, because there were a few of these people who were rushing the border, what is your response to an event like that? What do you do?

RODRIGUEZ: Everyone stood privy to the fact that I was very disappointed with the engagement of strategies and tactics engaged by wonderful people in our border patrol. I actually have them in my church and my campuses in Los Angeles, border patrol agents, one of them is one of my key leaders actually. So, I understand, they do a great job in protecting our border and I appreciate their services, however, tear gas, and there were kids there and I understand some of the kids were used intentionally by those that were in the beginning of that group, attempting to come in here illegally, I get that, but man, we can do better. We can do better. And by the way, it’s not a caravan of seven, 10,000 people attempting to invade America and of Much Malo hombres, the vast majority of people are just desperate people looking for a better day. It should break your heart — it should break the heart of every American. I have no problem when American’s say, these people are trying to come in here illegally, they can’t come in here illegally. I respect that, but I want to hear the following likewise, but we are hurting with them. We need to address their need. We should do something to help them, because they are people created in the image of god. Oh my god, what would I do if I would be in their same — in similar situations.

MARTIN: But why do you keep saying people who are attempting to come here illegally, because it’s my understanding that if you present yourself for asylum, that the interpretation of the current law is that, you’re not illegal until you have been demonstrated to have not met the conditions for asylum, so why do you keep using tha term?

RODRIGUEZ: I hear you. There’s two groups of them. There is a group that was explicit in saying, if we are not accepted through the legal port of entry, then we’re going to come in here illegally. I’m addressing that group. The group of individuals attempting to come in here legally, via the conduit of a port of entry, apply for asylum, there is a process in place. There is a legal system in place, if they are engaging or attempting to engage that system that’s already in place, god bless them. More power to them. Go, go. Go, through the process that’s already in place, but what I call illegal are those that are attempting to come in here illegally, who stated explicitly on Univision and other networks, if they don’t permit me to come in here, if they reject me here, I’m going to try to come in here illegally. And we want people to come here legally.

MARTIN: It just seems to me that the New Testament is very clear about welcoming the stranger. How is it that have espoused a certain set of faith principles can be so hostile toward people who are fleeing for their lives. And since you are a person who has a foot in both worlds, how do you understand this disconnect and how this issue is viewed?

RODRIGUEZ: There is a group that really says, our great angst, our consternation, the imperative that provisty acid reflux regarding this issue is the illegal entry. We want people to come here legally. But then there’s another group and I these people suffer from this monochromatic myopic way of thinking, where they believe that being an American is a western European presentation of the American definition and that’s not what makes you an American. The color of your skin, your pigmentation does not make you American. And what makes you an American is an adherence to the Constitution, The Bill of Rights, Declaration of Independence, a Covenant, mind you, where you embrace these values of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. What makes you an American is either you’re born here or your naturalized here or you’re a son of an — you’re a child of an American who believes in this great idea that we have rights that only god gave us and only god can take them away.

MARTIN: So, how do you change that? How do you change it if somebody deeply believes that they are right and deeply believes that immigrants are a threat to the character of the country that they love? What are you going to do to change that belief?

RODRIGUEZ: When you wake up in the morning, if you see yourself primarily as a Republican or a Democrat, you have issues. You should see yourself primarily as a Christian, a child of god. And if you’re a Christian, first and foremost, then you will live out that Christian heritage as outlined by Jesus and then we will have compassionate world view, one that reconciles the rule of law with compassion, Romans 13 with Matthew 25. Otherwise, then we’re just Sunday Christians and we’re not living out our faith every single days of our lives.

MARTIN: That’s the Reverend Samuel Rodriguez. Pastor Sam, thank you so much for talking with us.

RODRIGUEZ: Thank you for having me.