Ronan Farrow on His Investigation Into Capitol Rioters

> NOW, THERE IS ANOTHER ELEMENT TO THE PROSECUTION'S CASE AGAINST PRESIDENT TRUMP IN THIS, HIS SECOND IMPEACHMENT TRIAL.

DRAMATIC VIDEOS TAKEN AT THE CAPITOL DURING THE INSURRECTION.

HOARDS OF RIOTERS WREAKING HAVOC, SOME CHANTING 'FIGHT FOR TRUMP.'

BUT WHO WERE THE ACTUAL FACES IN THAT CROWD?

RONAN FARROW, CONTRIBUTING WRITER FOR 'THE NEW YORKER' MAGAZINE PROFILED THREE DIFFERENT RIOTERS TO LEARN ABOUT THEIR BACKGROUND.

ALL THREE WERE ARRESTED AND NOW FACE CRIMINAL CHARGES.

HERE'S RONAN FARROW WITH MICHEL MARTIN.

RONAN FARROW, THANKS FOR JOINING US ONCE AGAIN.

ALWAYS GREAT TO BE HERE.

SO YOU'VE BEEN DIGGING INTO THE BACKGROUNDS OF SOME OF THE PEOPLE WHO WERE PART OF THE MOB THAT INVADED THE CAPITOL, AND YOU ACTUALLY DID A DEEP DIVE ON A COUPLE OF THEM.

I JUST WANTED TO GO ONE BY ONE AND ASK YOU TO SAY A FEW WORDS ABOUT EACH AND THEN I WANT TO SEE WHAT THE BROADER THREADS MIGHT BE THAT BRING THEM TOGETHER.

SO WHY DON'T WE START WITH RACHEL POWELL.

YOU KNOW, IT'S ALWAYS A POINT OF CONTROVERSY AND A POINT OF A LOT OF EDITORIAL DISCUSSION ON MY END HOW YOU COVER INDIVIDUALS ACCUSED CREDIBLY OF DOMESTIC TERRORISM IN A WAY THAT DOESN'T GLORIFY BUT HELPS US UNDERSTAND WHAT ARE THESE PROBLEMS AND ARE WE STILL GOING TO BE DEALING WITH THIS IN THE YEARS TO COME.

THE ANSWER TO THAT IS ALMOST CERTAINLY YES.

WE CAN TALK ABOUT SOME OF THE REASONS WHY THE ROOT CAUSES OF THIS ARE GOING TO PERSIST.

THESE INDIVIDUALS THAT YOU MENTIONED EACH ILLUSTRATE THE FACTS FOR THAT ANGERS.

FOR RACHEL POWELL, SHE ACCORDS WITH DATA THAT IS NOW EMERGING AS PEOPLE ANALYZE THESE PARTICIPANTS THAT SUGGEST, YES, THERE WERE ORGANIZED COORDINATED GROUPS INVOLVED WITH PREPLANNING, BUT ALSO THERE WAS A MAYBE SIGNIFICANTLY LARGER PORTION OF THIS CROWD THAT CAME WITH SOME DEGREE OF SPONTANEITY, WITHOUT LAW ENFORCEMENT OR MILITARY TRAINING, AND WITHOUT ANY AFFILIATION WITH A FORMAL GROUP.

THERE WAS A UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO STUDY JUST A FEW DAYS AGO THAT A LARGE SUBSET OF PARTICIPANTS AND FOUND ABOUT 10% HAD SOME AFFILIATION WITH A FORMAL GROUP.

NOW, IS THAT EXCULPATORY?

ABSOLUTELY NOT.

IT DOESN'T CHANGE THE CONDUCT OF SOMEONE LIKE RACHEL POWELL WHO WAS SMASHING THROUGH WINDOWS WITH A MAKESHIFT BATTERING RAM AND ISSUING ORDERS TO OTHERS THROUGH A BULL HORN BUT IT IS IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND BECAUSE THIS IS A GENRE OF EXTREMISM.

SHE IS SOMEONE WHO IS A SELF-DESCRIBED SPORTS MOM.

A LOT OF HER SOCIAL MEDIA IN YEARS PAST WAS NOT POLITICAL, IT WAS JUST ABOUT ORGANIC FOOD AND YOGA AND VERY KIND OF MUNDANE INTERESTS THAT ACCORD WITH WHAT YOU'D EXPECT OF A MOM OF EIGHT IN A SMALL TOWN IN PENNSYLVANIA.

OF COURSE SHE HAD SOME EXTREMIST LEANINGS BEFOREHAND.

SHE HAD SOME VIEWS THAT HAVE BEEN ACCENTUATED IN THE LAST YEAR.

BUT IT REALLY IS IN THE LAST YEAR THAT YOU LOOK AT HER POSTS ON SOCIAL MEDIA AND YOU TALK TO HER NOW AND YOU SEE SOMEONE WHO HAS GONE FULL TILT INTO CONSPIRACY THEORIES AND INTO EXTREMISM.

SO YOU'RE TELLING US IN YOUR PIECE THAT RACHEL POWELL DIDN'T EVEN VOTE FOR TRUMP IN 2016, AND SHE WAS ACTUALLY KIND OF LUKEWARM ABOUT HIM IN 2020.

SO WHAT HAPPENED THAT ALL OF A SUDDEN SHE WAS WILLING TO, WHAT, GET ON A BUS OR HOWEVER SHE GOT THERE, GO TO THE CAPITOL AND START BELL OWING INSTRUCTIONS WITH A BULL HORN.

WHAT HAPPENED?

SHE DROVE DOWN WITH FRIENDS.

MORE TO THE POINT, THIS IS A CENTRAL QUESTION THAT WE'RE GOING TO SEE ANALYZED DURING THE IMPEACHMENT PROCEEDINGS.

HOW MUCH DID TRUMP'S WORDS WEIGH IN THE MINDS OF PEOPLE WHO ARE ACCUSED OF HAVING COMMITTED VIOLENCE THAT DAY.

YOU KNOW, YOU SEE A SPECTRUM WHEN YOU TALK TO SOME OF THESE INDIVIDUALS.

FOR A NUMBER OF PEOPLE THAT I PROFILED AND TALKED TO, THEY VERY DIRECTLY SAY THIS WAS ABOUT LOYALTY TO MY PRESIDENT.

I WAS OBEYING HIS ORDERS ESSENTIALLY.

RACHEL POWELL, I THINK, IS PART OF AN EQUALLY IMPORTANT SUBSET OF THESE INDIVIDUALS TO LOOK AT.

SHE'S SOMEONE WHO FANCIES HERSELF FIERCELY INDEPENDENT.

SHE LIKES THE IDEA THAT SHE'S ANTI-GOVERNMENT.

THAT'S A THREAD THAT RUNS THROUGH THIS GROUP AND THEIR EXTREMIST IDEOLOGIES.

SHE LIKES TO FLAUNT THE FACT THAT SHE DIDN'T VOTE FOR TRUMP THAT FIRST TIME AROUND, THAT SHE HAS CRITICISM OF SOME OF HIS POLICIES, LIKE HIS ENVIRONMENTAL POLICIES.

BUT, YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU SCRATCH THROUGH THE SURFACE OF THAT SORT OF DEFIANT I FOLLOW NO ONE'S ORDERS ETHOS, SHE IS SOMEONE WHO CLEARLY LOVES TRUMP AND HIS POLICIES.

SHE TALKS ABOUT HIM BEING A BRILLIANT BUSINESSMAN, HOW MUCH HE'S BENEFITED THE ECONOMY IN HER VIEW.

SHE FULLY EMBRACES HIS ELECTION FRAUD CONSPIRACY THEORIES AND SEEMS TO HAVE REALLY BEEN LED DOWN THAT ROAD, MICHEL, BY A COHORT OF TRUMP SUPPORTERS, ESPECIALLY RUDY GIULIANI IS SOMEONE SHE TALKED ABOUT A LOT THAT SHE LISTENS TO VERY CLOSELY AND WHO OPENED HER EYES, AS SHE PUTS IT, TO THIS WORLD OF FALSEHOODS AND CONSPIRACY THEORIES.

LET'S TALK ABOUT DONOVAN CROWELL.

I THINK HE FITS THE PROFILE THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE WOULD HAVE HAD.

50 YEARS OLD, FORMER MARINE, SERVED AS A HELICOPTER MECHANIC, ACCORDING TO YOUR REPORTING.

HE IDENTIFIES AS A MEMBER OF -- HE DOES IDENTIFY AS A MEMBER OF ONE OF THESE MILITIA GROUPS, OATH KEEPERS.

TELL ME ABOUT HIM.

WHAT'S HIS STORY?

AS YOU SAY, DONOVAN CROWELL FITS MORE OF I THINK WHAT PEOPLE SEE AS THE CONVENTIONAL MOLD FOR DOMESTIC TERRORISTS.

HE IS A PART OF AN ORGANIZED EXTREMIST GROUP.

HE HAD BEEN SHOWING UP ALONG WITH OTHERS IN THIS RAGTAG MILITIA, A SUBCHAPTER OF THE OATH KEEPERS ESSENTIALLY.

IT'S AFFILIATED WITH THIS NATIONAL GROUP OATH KEEPERS.

HE HAD BEEN SHOWING UP WITH THEM AT VARIOUS EVENTS IN HIS STATE IN OHIO FOR MONTHS, OFTEN ARMED AND FULLY KIDDED OUT IN MILITARY ATTIRE.

THIS IS SOMEONE WHO IS A VETERAN OF NO PARTICULAR DISTINCTION.

DIDN'T SERVE IN COMBAT BUT DOES SAY THAT HE HAS PTSD.

HE STRUGGLES WITH ADDICTION.

SOMEONE WHO VERY MUCH FELL OFF OF THE GRID AND FELL INTO A RABBIT HOLE OF CONSPIRACY THEORIES AS WELL, GRADUALLY ALIENATING EVERYONE AROUND HIM.

THESE ARE INDIVIDUALS WHOSE FAMILY MEMBERS HELPED TURN THEM IN IN A LOT OF CASES.

AND YOU TALK TO SOMEONE LIKE DONOVAN CROWELL AND YOU REALLY UNDERSTAND WHY.

HE IS SOMEONE WHO --

THEY WERE SCARED OF HIM?

I THINK THEY'RE SCARED OF HIM.

THEY TALK ABOUT HIM BEING A MARKSMAN AND FEARING THAT HELD COME FOR THEM OR BE VIOLENT.

THEY TALK ABOUT HIM BEING ERRATIC, ALLEGEDLY DUE TO HIS DRUG ABUSE.

YOU SENSE THAT INTERVIEWING HIM.

HE IS SOMEONE WHO THREATENED ME.

I'VE HAD SECURITY PATROLS OUTSIDE PARTLY BECAUSE OF HIS THREATS AND THE FACT THAT HE'S TIED TO A MORE CREDIBLE, LARGER GROUP OF EXTREMISTS IN THE FORM OF THE OATH KEEPERS.

SO YOU'VE GOT RACHEL POWELL, WHO SEEMS TO BE KIND OF SOMEBODY SEARCHING FOR SOMETHING TO BELIEVE IN AND THEN YOU'VE GOT DONOVAN CROWELL WHO IS WHAT A LOT OF PEOPLE WOULD THINK WOULD BE ATTRACTED TO THIS, THE LEAST, THE LAST, THE LOST, KIND OF BROKEN, NOT DOING VERY WELL.

BUT THEN YOU GET TO LARRY BROCK, WHO'S THE THIRD PERSON YOU PROFILE.

AIR FORCE ACADEMY GRAD, LOTS OF SERVICE MEDALS, SMALL BUSINESS OWNER, EARLY 50s.

WHAT'S THAT ABOUT?

I SHOULD POINT OUT, YOU KNOW, HIS MEDALS ARE, YOU KNOW, A MODERATE LEVEL OF DISTINCTION.

A LOT OF THEM ARE SORT OF PARTICIPATION MEDALS THAT ONE WOULD EXPECT TO HAVE WITH THE AMOUNT OF TIME HE SPENT IN THE SERVICE.

SO, YOU KNOW, HE'S DECORATED BUT NOT HIGHLY DECORATED.

BUT DOES REPRESENT A KIND OF MIDDLE OF THE ROAD SUCCESSFUL MILITARY PROFILE WHO THEN WENT INTO THE PRIVATE SECTOR AND WAS ALSO MIDDLE OF THE ROAD SUCCESSFUL.

HE WAS A PILOT FOR A MAJOR AIRLINE FOR A TIME.

LIVES A VERY COMFORTABLE, SUBURBAN, MIDDLE CLASS LIFESTYLE.

AND I THOUGHT THAT THAT WAS ALSO IMPORTANT TO DRAW OUT.

THERE WERE INDIVIDUALS THERE THAT DAY IN THAT CROWD WHO CAME ON PRIVATE PLANES.

THIS WAS NOT, AS YOU JUST ALLUDED TO, JUST THE DOWNTRODDEN, THE SAD, THE LOST.

THERE IS AN INFRASTRUCTURE, MICHEL, PARTICULARLY ONLINE, THAT IS SETTING ABOUT RADICALIZING A WHOLE SWATH OF DIFFERENT KINDS OF PEOPLE.

LET'S TALK ABOUT THESE COMMON THREADS.

ONE IS RACE.

LOOK, IT'S NO SECRET THAT MOST OF THE PEOPLE THERE ARE WHITE.

MM-HMM.

THEY SEEM TO BE MOSTLY MALE.

CERTAINLY NOT EXCLUSIVELY MALE.

AND YOU COULD TELL THAT A LOT OF THEM WERE OLDER.

THEY WEREN'T KIDS, YOU KNOW, LOOKING FOR SOMETHING TO DO.

THEY WEREN'T TEENAGERS, THEY WEREN'T YOUNG ADULTS.

A LOT OF THESE WERE OLDER.

YOU ALLUDED TO THIS RESEARCH AT THE UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO THAT TWO RESEARCHERS JUST PUBLISHED AND FOLKS CAN READ IT IN 'THE ATLANTIC' AND THEY SAID OF THE 193 PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN CHARGED SO FAR, THE AVERAGE AGE IS 40.

TWO-THIRDS OF THEM ARE 35 OR OLDER.

AND 40% ARE BUSINESS OWNERS OR HAVE WHITE COLLAR JOBS.

THOSE ARE SOME OF THE PEOPLE THAT YOU PROFILED.

SO WHAT'S THE COMMON THREAD HERE?

I THINK THERE ARE A COUPLE OF COMMONALITIES THAT ARE WORTH LOOKING AT.

ONE OF THE MOST SIGNIFICANT IS THE INTERNET, IS SOCIAL MEDIA COMPANIES IN PARTICULAR.

AND REALLY WE'RE TALKING OVERWHELMINGLY ABOUT FACEBOOK HERE.

EACH OF THESE INDIVIDUALS WHEN I PRESSED THEM ON WHERE THEY GOT THEIR NEWS, THEIR MISINFORMATION, THEIR CONVICTIONS ABOUT ELECTION FRAUD, THEIR IDEAS ABOUT THE COVID PANDEMIC, OVERSTATED AS A THREAT, THEY HAD TO BE SORT OF DRAWN INTO ANSWERING THAT QUESTION BECAUSE I THINK A LOT OF THEM HADN'T THOUGHT ABOUT WHERE THIS CAME FROM, BUT ULTIMATELY IT CAME THROUGH FACEBOOK.

RACHEL POWELL LIKED TO SAY SINGLE NEWS SOURCE OR LOOK AT THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA, BUT WHAT SHE'S SEEING IS CONTENT COMING AT HER ON HER FACEBOOK FEED.

THAT IS A VERY DIFFICULT THING THAT WE HAVE TO GRAPPLE WITH AS A SOCIETY.

I'VE TALKED TO A LOT OF ACADEMIC EXPERTS ON RADICALISM AND THEY ALL POINT TO THAT AS A COMMONALITY.

THE FACT THAT THE ALGORITHMS BUILT INTO FACEBOOK ARE DESIGNED SO THAT IF YOU CLICK EXTREMIST MISINFORMATION, IT'S GOING TO SEND MORE OF THAT YOUR WAY.

IF YOU SEARCH FOR RUDY GIULIANI, YOU'RE GOING TO BE SENT DOWN A WHOLE RABBIT HOLE NOT OF INFORMATION ABOUT WHO RUDY GIULIANI IS THAT'S ACCURATE, BUT ABOUT RUDY GIULIANI'S WORLD VIEW AND SOME OF THE MISINFORMATION THAT HE HAS PEDDLED.

AND THAT'S A VERY HARD THING FOR US TO BREAK FREE OF AS A SOCIETY.

IT IS OMNI PRESENT AND IN THE FACEBOOK FEEDS OF BOTH EX-MILITARY GUYS WHO ARE LOOKING FOR A NEW MISSION AND, YOU KNOW, A MOM IN RURAL PENNSYLVANIA WHO IS ALSO FEELING UNMOORED AND HAS SOME BIGOTED AND EXTREME VIEWS TO BEGIN WITH BUT IS SORT OF A RIPE TARGET FOR THIS SORT OF THING.

I WANT TO DIG INTO A COUPLE OF THE THINGS YOU JUST SAID.

FIRST OF ALL, THE RACIAL ASPECT OF IT.

YES.

I KNOW THAT AS YOU JUST SAID A LOT OF THESE FOLKS GO I'M NOT A RACIST.

OH, MY GOD, I'M NOT RACIST.

BUT IT DOES SEEM THAT IN SOME OF THEIR CASES THAT THIS SORT OF EITHER RACIAL INSECURITY OR RACIAL ANIMUS DOES SEEM TO BE AN ANIMATING FORCE.

I MEAN I KNOW WITH ONE OF THEM IN PARTICULAR, DONOVAN CROWELL, HIS FAMILY MEMBERS SAID THAT HE WAS A STONE COLD RACIST AND THAT HE JUST WAS FOR SOME REASON JUST REALLY UPSET BY BLACK PEOPLE.

BUT WITH THE OTHERS, WHAT ABOUT THEM?

WHAT ROLE DOES RACE PLAY IN THEIR WORLD VIEW OR AT LEAST THEIR SUSCEPTIBILITY TO THIS KIND OF MESSAGING?

YOU'RE EXACTLY RIGHT THAT ALL OF THESE INDIVIDUALS TO VARYING EXTENTS ARE PEOPLE OF WHOM THEIR FAMILY MEMBERS SAID WE'VE HEARD THEM SAY HORRIFIC RACIST THINGS.

I'VE THOUGHT A LOT ABOUT THIS QUESTION TOO.

IT'S STRIKING TALKING TO PEOPLE WHO HAVE THAT KIND OF A HISTORY OF RACIAL VIEWS AND HEARING THEM EXPLAIN IT AWAY.

AND IT REALLY SOUNDS LIKE A NARRATIVE THEY ARE FEEDING THEMSELVES.

I CAN'T BE RACIST BECAUSE I WAS NICE TO THIS ONE BLACK PERSON IN MY LIFE.

YOU KNOW, EACH ONE OF THOSE INDIVIDUALS THAT YOU MENTIONED ANSWERED QUESTIONS ABOUT RACISM WITH SOME VARIANT OF, YOU KNOW, I HAD A BLACK BOYFRIEND, I HAD A BLACK GIRLFRIEND, I HAD A BLACK FAMILY MEMBER.

AND I THINK IN THEIR MIND THEY SINCERELY FEEL THAT MEANS THEY ARE NOT A RACIST.

NOW WHAT'S INTERESTING IS WHEN YOU THEN ASK THEM ABOUT BLACK LIVES MATTER, THEY GET VERY ANGRY, THEY SAY THAT'S VERY DIFFERENT.

THERE WAS LOOTING, THERE WAS DESTRUCTION, YOU KNOW, THAT THESE ARE CRIMINALS, PEOPLE WHO WERE PROTESTING IN THOSE BLACK LIVES MATTER PROTESTS.

AND I THINK THAT GETS AT THE NEXUS OF THESE TWO FACTORS.

THE SOCIAL MEDIA INFRASTRUCTURE THAT IS FEEDING EXTREMIST CONTENT TO PEOPLE WHO ARE VULNERABLE TO IT AND THIS UNDERCURRENT OF RACISM THAT'S BEING EXPLOITED BY THAT INFRASTRUCTURE.

THAT FASCINATES ME, THOUGH.

THE CONTRADICTIONS IS WHAT -- DO THEY NOT SEE WHAT THEY DID AT THE CAPITOL AS DESTRUCTIVE?

I MEAN THESE ARE SOME OF THESE GUYS WEARING THOSE BLUE LIVES -- THIS IS ONE OF THE JARRING THINGS FOR ME IS OBVIOUSLY MANY PEOPLE HAVE NOTED THE CONFEDERATE FLAGS BEING CARRIED AROUND THROUGH THE CAPITOL.

BUT THE BLUE LIVES MATTER FLAGS, A LOT OF GUYS WEARING BLUE LIVES MATTER PATCHES, MEANWHILE, THEY ARE VICIOUSLY ASSAULTING POLICE OFFICERS, MOST OF WHOM ARE WHITE.

AND THEY SEVERELY INJURED MANY OF THEM.

I DON'T THINK THIS HAS BEEN ADEQUATELY UNDERSTOOD HOW MANY PEOPLE HAVE SUSTAINED SEVERE INJURIES.

WE KNOW THAT A NUMBER OF PEOPLE DIED AND WE KNOW ONE PERSON DIED SOON AFTER OF HIS INJURIES.

WE KNOW THAT AT LEAST ONE OTHER PERSON TOOK HIS OWN LIFE AFTER THE TRAUMA OF THE EVENT.

BUT ALSO THERE ARE DOZENS OF POLICE OFFICERS WHO ARE SEVERELY INJURED AS A RESULT OF THE CONDUCT AT THE CAPITOL THAT DAY.

I'M JUST WONDERING HOW THEY SQUARE THAT?

I DON'T THINK IT CAN BE LOGICALLY SQUARED.

I THINK THAT WHEN YOU LOOK AT EXTREISM AND RACISM, THERE ARE A LOT OF INHERENT CONTRADICTIONS THAT YOU HAVE TO SWALLOW TO COME AROUND TO THOSE KIND OF ABHORRENT VIEWS.

THE POINT THAT I WAS GOING TO MAKE ABOUT THE INTERSECTION BETWEEN THESE TWO THINGS IS IT'S NOT JUST THAT PEOPLE WITH SIMMERING RACIST VIEWS ARE RIPE FOR EXPLOITATION BY ALL OF THESE STRUCTURES THAT ARE DESIGNED TO RADICALIZE IN THE SOCIAL MEDIA ECOSYSTEM, IT'S THAT THE EXTREMIST CONTENT BEING FUNNELED THROUGH THAT ECOSYSTEM IS ACTUALLY, I THINK, DESIGNED TO ACCELERATE AND IGNITE RACISM.

SPECIFICALLY EXPERTS WHO STUDY EXTREMISM TALK A LOT ABOUT HOW THAT SUMMER OF PROTESTS WHERE PEOPLE ROSE UP AND SAID ENOUGH ABOUT POLICE BRUTALITY, ET CETERA, THAT HAS BEEN PROCESSED BY A FAR RIGHT-WING MACHINE.

IT HAS BEEN EXCERPTED AND SLICED UP AND VIDEOS SHOWING MOMENTS OF CHAOS IN THOSE PROTESTS HAS BEEN FED DIRECTLY INTO THESE KINDS OF DARK ENCLAVES OF THE INTERNET WHERE EXTREMISM FLOURISHES.

AND SO THERE IS, I THINK, A REAL RESURGENCE OF NOT JUST EXTREMIST CONSPIRACY THEORIES AT LARGE BUT SPECIFICALLY OF RACIAL ANIMOSITY.

I REALLY DO FEEL LIKE I HAVE TO GO BACK TO DONALD TRUMP HERE.

THE SECOND IMPEACHMENT TRIAL IS COMMENCING WHERE HE HAS BEEN CHARGED WITH INCITING THIS MOB, INCITING THE PEOPLE WHOM YOU PROFILED AND OTHERS PRESUMABLY WHOM YOU WILL PROFILE.

I JUST WONDER WHAT ROLE DID HE PLAY IN THEIR LIVES?

THINKING BACK TO RACHEL POWELL WHO SAYS SHE WASN'T PARTICULARLY FOND OF HIM AT THE BEGINNING, WAS KIND OF LUKEWARM TOWARD HIM BUT AT SOME POINT HE BECAME VERY IMPORTANT TO HER.

WHAT ROLE DOES DONALD TRUMP PLAY IN THEIR LIVES AND IN THIS WHOLE INCIDENT BASED ON YOUR REPORTING?

WELL, I THINK IT'S STRIKING AND ILLUSTRATES HOW DANGEROUS DONALD TRUMP WAS AND CONTINUES TO BE.

HE'S STILL A FIGURE IN THESE CIRCLES THAT INDIVIDUALS WHO HAVE THESE VIEWS LOOK UP TO, TO LOOK AT THAT RAPID TRANSFORMATION IN SOMEONE LIKE RACHEL POWELL'S VIEWS ABOUT TRUMP.

YOU KNOW, SHE CAME AROUND TO A VERY ARDENT EMBRACE OF TRUMP I THINK BECAUSE OF CLASSIC AUTHORITARIAN TACTICS.

DONALD TRUMP REALLY FED INTO THIS DEMOGRAPHIC AND THEIR MINDS, YOU KNOW, THE OTHERING OF WHETHER IT'S IMMIGRANTS OR BLACK PEOPLE, A LOT OF RACIST DOG WHISTLES.

THE SUSPICIONS OF THE LEGITIMATE FREE PRESS.

THESE ARE ALL HALLMARKS OF HOW AUTHORITARIAN LEADERS SEIZE CONTROL, LEANING INTO XENOPHOBIA, LEANING INTO ATTACKS ON THE PRESS AND ON ACCOUNTABILITY AND ON TRUTH.

AND YOU COUPLE THAT POTENT COCKTAIL OF AUTHORITARIAN TACTICS THAT HAS THE POWER TO BRING AROUND EVEN PEOPLE WHO WERE INITIALLY SKEPTICAL OF HIM WITH THE OTHER POPULATION THAT WE SEE REPRESENTED HERE, PEOPLE WHO REALLY RESPONDED TO THOSE TROPES FROM THE BEGINNING AND WERE ALL IN ON DONALD TRUMP, AND CERTAINLY THAT SEEMS TO BE TRUE OF PEOPLE LIKE BROCK, PEOPLE LIKE CROWELL.

THEY FEEL LIKE THEY ARE IN A PITCHED BATTLE FOR THE FUTURE OF THE COUNTRY AND THE CULTURE AND THAT DONALD TRUMP IS THE LEGITIMATE LEADER OF THAT BATTLE.

YOU KNOW, THEY TALK ABOUT WANTING TO SERVE HIM.

SO THIS CONTINUES I THINK TO BE A POWERFUL AND TROUBLING FORCE IN ALL OF THIS.

DONALD TRUMP'S ROLE IS NOT OVER.

RONAN FARROW, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

ALWAYS A PLEASURE.