Russell Moore on Southern Baptist Sex Abuse Report

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR: Ethics also on the agenda in the United States where a devastating report has found that Southern Baptist Convention leaders mishandle sexual abuse allegations over two decades. Survivors were ignored, disbelieved, and even intimidated, the report says. The protestant denomination has an estimated 14 million members. Russell Moore is the former president of the Ethics Commission for the convention. He resigned a year ago over what he felt was an inadequate response to many of the allegations of sexual abuse. But the report’s findings still surprised him as he tells Michel Martin.

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MICHEL MARTIN, CONTRIBUTOR: Thanks, Christiane. Pastor Russell Moore, thank you so much for joining us once again.

RUSSELL MOORE, PUBLIC THEOLOGIAN, CHRISTIANITY TODAY: Thanks for having me.

MARTIN: The reason we’re talking today is that the Southern Baptist Convention released the findings of a yearlong investigation by a third- party professional investigative firm looking at allegations of sexual abuse, or at least the way the convention addressed matters of sexual misconduct, of abuse, of harassment, of assaults going back for 20 years. Frankly, the findings are deeply disturbing, to anybody, I would think, reading them. How did they strike you?

MOORE: Well, I expected to be the last person to be surprised by the investigation, because I was the one who called for an investigation to take place, and I thought, well, everyone else should see what’s going on here and make decisions. But even I was shocked by the depths of it. I mean, this investigation revealed things that were so horrifying and shocking that I don’t know how any functioning conscience could not withdraw in horror from some it.

MARTIN: For people who haven’t read it, what were some of the findings that stood up to you?

MOORE: Well, one of the findings that was most shocking to me, after years and years of several of us saying, how can we work towards some sort of database that could prevent pastors, staff members, or others who are abusers moving from one church to the other and being told by the Executive Committee, it couldn’t be done, we looked into it legally, it can’t happen, there’s no way to know these things. There actually was a secret shadow database in the Executive Committee, with what the report says could be up to over 700 individuals involved in this kind of abuse correlated there, not to protect sexual abuse victims, but to protect themselves. That was startling to me. Also, when you look through and see, as somebody who experienced the obstacles from the Executive Committee in addressing these matters, even at the point of just calling them a crisis, that was objected to repeatedly. When you look at the back and forth, it’s in black and white print, the conversations that were going on internally. The sort of dismissiveness towards a sexual abuse victims and survivors, the inhumanity there is horrifying.

MARTIN: Let me read from the executive summary that says that, for almost two decades, survivors of abuse of other concerned Southern Baptists have been contacting the SBC Executive Committee to report child molesters and other abusers who were in the pulpit or employed as church staff. They made phone calls, mailed letters, sent e-mails, appeared at SBC and EC, Executive Committee meetings, held rallies, contacted the press only to be met time and time again with resistance, stonewalling, and even outright hostility from some within the Executive Committee.

MOORE: Yes.

MARTIN: And by outright hostility, I mean, like, they were vilified.

MOORE: Yes.

MARTIN: These were — let me just say, religiously, as a pastor, as a person who is ordained, as a person who’s committed to carrying the word of your faith, how do you understand that?

MOORE: Well, there was something going on there that was the work of the devil, but it wasn’t that of the sexual abuse victims and survivors. It was these conversations that would picture them as crazy or as evil. And frankly, the least surprising thing to me in this report is the way that sexual abuse instances were spoken of as a distraction, because that was something many of us encountered over and over and over again. We can’t get distracted from the mission, from what it is were called to do. Well, the most basic and minimal level of our mission is to have safety for kids and for vulnerable people, that Jesus tells you he loves. And that’s not some sort of extra, that any institution has to do. That’s basic and fundamental, especially when it’s happening in the name of Jesus.

MARTIN: One of the other disturbing things about the report is that people at the highest levels, some of the most revered leaders within the organization were implicated in this conduct, not just as covering it up, but also actively participating in it themselves.

MOORE: Yes.

MARTIN: And I have to ask you, did you see that?

MOORE: I was not surprised by some of the cases that were correlated because those were things that had been reported previously, but there were several that were indeed shocking. There was one minister mentioned who was one of the very few people who seems to be or seemed to be respected across all of the typical divisions and camps, and that one was quite a shock, and there are many people that I talk to you right now who are still reeling from that set of revelations.

MARTIN: Pastor Moore, you wrote about this in a very powerful and, obviously, deeply felt essay for “Christianity Today.” You write, who cannot now see the rot in a culture that mobilizes to exile churches that call a woman on staff a pastor or that invite a woman to speak from the pulpit on Mother’s Day, but dismisses rape and molestation as distractions and efforts to address some of the violations of the cherished hurts autonomy? In sectors of today’s SBC, Southern Baptist Convention, women wearing leggings as a social media crisis, dealing with rape in a church is distraction. How do you understand this within the structure of the Southern Baptist Community that this went on for so long? Frankly, I will say to you that there are people who identify as evangelical, who identify as belonging to the religious tradition of that specific group, who say that really, it’s related to that kind of misogyny and that deeply rooted patriarchy within the church, that basically says that men are more important that women, that men have power and women don’t? Could it be that?

MOORE: Yes. I think that’s a key part of it. An attitude towards women that is unbiblical and is wrong. We would see that when sexual abuse survivors or victims would be spoken of behind closed doors as Jezebels or as Potiphar’s wife, an example that’s not relevant at all from scripture against these brave and courageous women who are going forward, that sort of language. You combine that with, in some sectors, there was a sense that, well, these are fake issues, the MeToo movement, that something out there in the culture, that’s a liberal idea. It’s not something that is really relevant to us. Now, along with institutional self-protection, which is one of the things that we have seen over and over again in multiple institutions, where the institution itself becomes an idol and it becomes more important than innocent people.

MARTIN: We are talking about people who as children or as very young — as young girls were brought into sexual relationships with people that could be damaging lifelong. I mean, there was the first-person testimony about this. People — survivors have spoken publicly about this. These are people who are committed to the church.

MOORE: Yes.

MARTIN: And so, I guess what I am wondering, since you know these people, some of the people implicated in this report, I am just wondering, did — how do you see that? Is it that they feel they are just more important or – – I’m just — do you understand what I’m asking here?

MOORE: Yes. It is a deep darkness, and that is one of the reasons why I — when people ask me, well, what should be done in terms of structural reforms, there are a lot of structural reforms that need to happen. The SBC Executive Committee itself is far too powerful and its power happens mostly behind closed doors. There are databases, there are things that can be done. But that is not enough. What has to happen is to also get at the root of where is this coming from, and it is deeply, deeply dark. And that is one of the reasons why some — several of us were told, well, you need to work within the system and do things according to the process that is there. Well, all of us did. I mean, I was working within the process for 50 years as a loyal Southern Baptist from the moment I was conceived. And eventually, one gets to the point of saying, wait, this is deeper than just ignorance and this is deeper than just people not knowing how to solve a problem. Now, what I will say is that as dark a view as I have of the Executive Committee, and what has happened here, I am encouraged in the sense that this investigation never would have happened if grassroots Southern Baptist’s hadn’t shown up at the convention and demanded it happened and go around much of their leadership to do that. And so, we will see what happens in the days to come. But maybe, finally, the people being abused are ready to say, enough of this.

MARTIN: What should happen now?

MOORE: It is hard for me to say what can happen in such a short period of time, given the crisis and how long it has taken to get here. But there needs to be accountability for the leaders who have been involved in this. There needs to be restitution for those who have been harmed during this awful process. That there needs to be a taking away of the kind of power and the kind of authority that could allow this sort of thing to go on unchecked. And with it, the kind of culture of intimidation and retaliation. Not just against the sexual abuse survivors, not just those that we see in this report, but also for those who would advocate for them or who would whistle blow, that has to happen. And the agenda being set within the denomination by a small group of people who wish to act as political power brokers and sometimes almost a mafia, that has to be addressed. So, there are a lot of sweet and good and Christ-like people, most of them in the pews are. But they have to realize that this is happening, and to say, not in our name anymore. And that means not blaming the people who say that there is a problem, but blaming the problem and fixing the problem.

MARTIN: In response to the report, the current president of the Southern Baptist Convention, Ed Litton, said in a statement that, there are not adequate words to express my sorrow at the things revealed in this report and that the Southern Baptist’s must resolve to change our culture and implemented desperately needed reforms. Do you believe him?

MOORE: Do you I believe Ed? Yes. Because Ed has been speaking and working on these issues for a long time. But Ed can’t do it alone, he knows that. That is going to take — and it can’t be done through these just trust us, it’s going to take a long-time sort of blue-ribbon committee approaches. It’s been 20 years of this. And so, this needs action now, and not any more delay. And I think Ed is completely sincere in seeing that that happens. Everybody else needs to join him, as well. And J.D. Greear who was the president right before him also was heroic in trying to address this. And he, like many of us, faced obstacle after stonewall after stonewall here. And that needs to end. These lone leaders who were speaking to this along with the army of sexual abuse survivors and their advocates out there, none of these people can do it on their own. There needs to be a driving away from apathy for everybody to deal with it.

MARTIN: These were issues that you have been dealing with for quite some time. These issues, the conventions failure to respond to them appropriately were among the reasons you resigned. Also, the harassment directed at you, because you kept pushing on this issue was — were among the reasons you resigned. And I just have to ask, even though you knew about some of these things, what was your reaction when you read the report, when you saw all of this written down in black and white?

MOORE: I was physically repulsed. As a matter of fact, I had a physical reaction. I broke out into hives that I have had to have treated. And what that caused me to wonder is what is the response of — I’ve talked to many sexual abuse advisers — sexual abuse survivors who have had a very difficult time reading this report, far worse than anything I could imagine. And I have to wonder about those out there in the country who don’t feel that they have any voice or any power at all, what their response must be to reading this. And it is gut wrenching.

MARTIN: Do you have any regrets about leaving, feeling like perhaps you could be part of this change? Do you feel like if you had not left that perhaps the change would not have come?

MOORE: I have no regrets. Although, I have great pain. I was raised with my entire identity tied up in being a Southern Baptist. And it’s almost impossible to think of myself as anything other than a Southern Baptist, but I had to. And there was no other way that I could carry out of the calling that Jesus had given to me. I could not do what they wanted me to do and I couldn’t be who they wanted me to be.

MARTIN: But do you — I remember you writing, at one point, that your wife said, I love you, I’m with you to the end. But if you don’t leave, you’re going to be in an interface marriage.

MOORE: Yes. She had seen too much.

MARTIN: She’s seen too much?

MOORE: Yes. She was with me, along with my son at an Executive Committee meeting because after so many of these attacks on various fronts from there, my son, 15 years old, had asked her, has dad had some sort of a moral failure? And so, I said, why don’t you come with me and just listen to it all. And he did. And when, when we left, he just said, dad, why do we want to be a part of this? Now, you know, that was really a big moment for both of us. We had to leave. A lot of people have had to leave. At one point, 1 million people over the last three years. That said, I don’t expect anybody else to leave and I don’t judge the people who are staying just as I would hope they wouldn’t judge me for leaving. We need people to stay and to work for reform, and we also need people to say, sometimes when there is — what I consider to be a toxic environment, I have to leave it in order to be faithful to who they taught me to be.

MARTIN: Is there anything that would cause you to go back?

MOORE: I don’t think so. But that doesn’t mean that I don’t pray and hope that they get this right. I wish that I had been wrong on what I concluded, and I really, really hope that over the next year, and the next several years we look back and say, they are doing the right thing. That’s is my hope.

MARTIN: Pastor Russell Moore, thank you so much for talking with us once again.

MOORE: Thank you.