San Francisco’s Polarizing District Attorney Joins the Show

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR: Now, we’re staying in the courtroom with our next guest. San Francisco district attorney, Chesa Boudin. Elected in 2019. His aggressive platform centers on ending mass incarceration and addressing the root causes of crime. Well, just two years into his tenure, he is now facing a recall effort to remove him from office. Here he is speaking to Michel Martin about rise in violent crime and how the jailing of his parents informs his views on criminal justice.

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MICHEL MARTIN: Thanks, Christiane. District Attorney Chesa Boudin, thank you so much for talking with us today.

CHESA BOUDIN, SAN FRANCISCO DISTRICT ATTORNEY: It’s great to be with you, Michel.

MARTIN: So, obviously every community is different. Every local has his its, you know, particularities. But I want to start with a national circumstance. Something that, you know, cities, towns, suburban areas, small towns, big cities, something people across the country are dealing with, and that is an increase in homicides and gun violence, and this comes at a time when lot of other major crimes have declined. But last year, throughout 2020 and the first part of 2021, homicides are spiking like all over the country, including in San Francisco. And why do you think that is?

BOUDIN: Michel, there is nothing more important to me and my entire office than keeping San Francisco safe. And that is particularly true when it comes to something as serious as homicides. Those are the most serious crimes that we prosecute. And just last week, we secured a conviction in a murder case in front of San Francisco jury. So, we’re doing the work every day to hold people who commit serious crimes accountable. And tragically, as you point out, all across the country because of the proliferation of guns, because of the COVID-19 pandemic and a lot of other factors. We’ve seen an increase in gun violence and homicides. As much as we’re doing here in San Francisco to fight that, we’re lucky that our homicides have not increased the way they have in other parts of the country, in other big cities. But we have to remember, every single homicide is one too many.

MARTIN: That’s not actually true. I mean, homicides have spiked in 2020. That is in the Bay Area — so, I think you’re talking San Francisco proper. But in the Bay Area, this is a trend just like it is like all over the country. You identified a couple of factors. So, why don’t we take them one by one. What do you think the COVID-19 pandemic has to do with that?

BOUDIN: Well, I think for one thing, we see a tremendous amount of anxiety and disruption of normal life, including disruption of the kinds of violence interruption programs that we know are — have proven really effective to prevent violence instead of simply react to it. So, we’ve got groups like Street Violence Intervention Program here in San Francisco. And during the COVID-19 pandemic, a lot of those programs were shut down or were scaled back or converted to electronic. That means people were out in the streets. They couldn’t go to work. They couldn’t go to school. And young people in those circumstances sometimes get into trouble.

MARTIN: What is your take on — like how does this — it is not just how does it start, but why does it escalate?

BOUDIN: The reality is there’s never been more guns on the street and it’s never easier for people to get access to guns. So, when you have young men, primarily, who have beefs or disputes with each other, 30 years ago, they might have settled them with fists or with knives or with baseball bats. Still criminal, still highly problematic. But now, everybody who gets angry can easily go find a gun. The NRA and the folks who have dumped massive numbers, unprecedented numbers of guns, including untraceable ghost guns onto our streets are responsible for this proliferation of gun violence.

MARTIN: How do you know that?

BOUDIN: Because 8 out of 10 guns that the San Francisco Police Department seizes today are unregistered, unserialized ghost guns. That wasn’t true even four years ago or five years ago. This is a direct result of intentional policy by the NRA and Trump administration.

MARTIN: How do you know that? I mean, what (INAUDIBLE) have a policy around ghost guns? I don’t understand that. Explain that.

BOUDIN: The NRA has worked tirelessly for decades to undermine any effort by local or state government to regulate the distribution of guns. And the result is, more guns on our street than there have ever been at any point in American history. When young people who are angry, who are behaving irrationally or who are having arguments or disputes with friends or neighbors have easy access to guns, people get killed. That’s why in San Francisco, we’re being creative and innovative in our ways to fight back. We’re looking at ways we can push back on the ghost gun manufacturers. We rolled out a gun violence restraining order program to help people who know someone shouldn’t have a gun get gun violation restraining orders against that individual. We’re doing everything we can to get guns off the street and prevent new ones from circulating.

MARTIN: You do acknowledge it is upsetting to people. It’s not just — obviously, it is deadly. It’s devastating. It’s sort of traumatic. But even from sort of a policy standpoint you feel that you are doing everything, other people feel that not enough is being done. So, what do you say to people who say you are just not doing enough?

BOUDIN: I 100 percent agree with you, Michel. We need to do more. Law enforcement needs to step up. We need to get more guns off the street. We need to prevent new ones from hitting the streets. And every single use of a gun on the street, every single gun injury or gun death is a tragedy. And it is one that we have a responsibility to prevent, to protect and to heal. That is why we’re also being proactive when it comes to supporting crime victims, victims who have been harmed by gun violence or other violent crime. It is not enough for us to simply prosecute and hold accountable those who cause the harm. We do that to be sure. Like I said, last week, we secured a conviction in a murder that involved a gun during the course of robbery. But we also need to make sure we’re providing victim services as soon as harm is done. Because you are right, it is traumatic. It is traumatic to the entire community. And when people are hurt and traumatized, they go on to commit crimes and hurt other people themselves. We’ve got to break the cycle.

MARTIN: And when you say law enforcement should step up, what do you mean?

BOUDIN: I mean, we need to be proactive and creative in how we get guns off the street. It is not enough to simply stop and search every black and brown van the way New York City did for so many years. We need to also go to the root of the problem. We need to make sure that illegal gun manufacturing, illegal gun distribution is nipped in the bud. We need to go after the manufacturers and we need to get serious about regulation that makes it harder for gun manufacturers to dump guns on to our streets when they get into the hands of people who aren’t supposed to have them.

MARTIN: What do you say to people who argue that your progressive policies, you know, trying to deemphasize incarceration for example, trying to hold law enforcement, you know, accountable, in part what’s creating sort of the circumstances that are leading to these outcomes? I mean, as you know, a lot of people around the country and also in your city are — believe that these progressive policies on which you ran, have kind of created a sense of anything goes. Anything goes. They feel like it is created a sense that we won’t be held accountable. So, therefore, people are trying to get away with a sense of chaos. And what do you say that?

BOUDIN: Well, it’s simply not true. You can look at the evidence, you can look at the data and it speaks for himself. My first year in office, 2020, overall crime in San Francisco down by about 20 percent. You look nationwide and you see that the cities that are controlled by Republican mayors that have traditional tough on crime prosecutors actually saw gun violence go up as much or more than it did in other cities that are controlled by former prosecutors. And in San Francisco, for example, gun did go up substantially and tragically, but we’re also far lower in our homicide rate and in the increase in homicide rate than big cities around the Bay Area, including Oakland, Sacramento, where we’re got a very tough on crime prosecutor, her homicide rate skyrocketed in last year. This is not about local policies made by reformers. This is about easy access to guns, about a year of people being pent up in their homes and having no way to engage with the community that’s productive, no way to go to school, massive increase in unemployment and wealth inequality, and we see the outcome all over the country, not just cities where is we’re implementing reform policies.

MARTIN: And you’re — you know, you are aware that for some this takes on sort of an ethnic queue as well, right? I mean, the fact is that, you know, San Francisco is one of the cities in which there were a number of attacks on people of Asian descent last year. A lot of people felt that that was in part of response to the context created by the prior administration, you know, referring to the coronavirus in racist terms, et cetera. But nevertheless, these are some really, again, deeply disturbing when you see sort of elders being knocked down on the street and things of that sort, and a lot of these incidents got a lot of play both in the mainstream media and also sort of on social media. And for some people, it just feels like, I’m just going to be blunt about it, it just feels like, for some people, are reading that as these people don’t matter and other people matter more, particularly when you couple that with your emphases (ph) on trying to lessen the impact of incarceration. How do you respond to that?

BOUDIN: I want to be crystal clear, Michel. San Francisco is proud of our diverse communities. We are proud to be the city and country and 48 Unites States that has the biggest Asian American population. We have the oldest Chinatown in the Unites States and we stand with and standby our Chinese American and Asian American Pacific Islander communities. The reality is, we have seen across the country a very disturbing increase in hate incidents and hate speech. And I’m proud of the work my office has done. We’ve got a dedicated hate crimes prosecutor who handles every single hate crime investigation the police brings us from beginning to end. We also have done a wide array of trainings to help police in San Francisco better investigate and gather evidence that allows us to prosecute hate crimes. And I convened a meeting with all of Bay Area district attorneys to ensure our offices are coordinating efforts to push back and stand up for our vulnerable communities, whether they be Asian, whether they be immigrant, whether they be limited to English speaking, whether they be people of color.

MARTIN: You are elected on a platform of deemphasizing incarceration and traditional law enforcement approaches, that so-called (INAUDIBLE) and exploring and implementing other strategies. I mean, is it possible that the ideas that you ran on and that you believe in are just not appropriate to this moment?

BOUDIN: This moment more than any moment in American history is a moment that cries out for innovative, creative approaches to reduce crime and build safe communities. We saw last year the rise of a national Black Lives Matter movement. A bigger grassroots social movement than this country has ever experienced. It was a movement calling out for more effective approaches to law enforcement, for building trust between communities that are impacted by crime and the law enforcement officials that have sworn to serve and protect those communities. I am proud of the work we’re doing in San Francisco. We’re leading the way in police accountability. In equal enforcement of the law and independent innocence commission to make sure nobody is serving time for a crime they didn’t commit. And hates crimes — a dedicated hate crime, the assistance district attorney, and so many other ways that we’re on the cutting edge of effective data-driven, root-cause focus criminal justice enforcement.

MARTIN: People argue that part of the social justice — the consequence — I mean, not the consequence, sort of the corollary to those social justice movements is a damaging of morale among law enforcement. There are those who argue, and I know you have heard this argument, that law enforcement just isn’t stepping up to the degree that you think they should be in part because morale is poor because they feel that they are under attack. Do you think there is any merit to that argument?

BOUDIN: I think it’s been a very difficult 18 months for law enforcement. For all of us, right? Our social lives, our professional lives changed. There’s been an increased scrutiny of police and prosecutors all across the country. We’re being held to an extremely high standard, and it’s one that I know most of the hard-working members of the San Francisco Police Department are eager to meet. We are ready to rise to the challenge. We are ready to meet the high expectations and the high standards that the voters and taxpayers set for us.

MARTIN: Let me just ask — well, again unique to California, unique to — not — it’s pretty unique among sort of — among government systems is that, you know, California has the opportunity — gives citizens the opportunity to recall elected officials. You are at present the subject of a recall movement. What do you think that’s about?

BOUDIN: We see a virus that the Trump administration left us with. It is not just a coronavirus. But we see across the country a virus of people who don’t like the outcome of election, refusing to accept the will of the people. We see about 30 percent of this country refusing to accept that Biden won and Trump lost. Here in California, we see Republican operatives using a recall to try and undo the election of Governor Gavin Newsom and all the way down to the local level across the State of California, we’ve got about 70 different recall efforts under way all by disaffected, dissatisfied folks who simply can’t accept the outcome of the last election. I refuse to be distracted. The work we’re doing is too important. We will not be deterred. We will move forward with building policies that make and strong communities in San Francisco.

MARTIN: I know you are aware of this. Some of the people who are funding the recall effort against you are Silicon Valley heavyweights/ And I wonder what you think that means?

BOUDIN: Well, we know that the Silicon Valley venture capital community, the tech community in San Francisco is as diverse as any other area of business or government. And what we see is some folks who are ultra conservative, who refuse to accept the outcome of elections, who believe that every poor person of color should be in a cage, funding this recall. They’re writing checks for $50,000, $75,000 each. That’s not what I believe and that is not what I know the majority of workers in the tech industry and leaders in the tech industry believe. In fact, many of our biggest supporters are also in the tech community. Our folks — our volunteers, folks who are helping to provide jobs for people coming home from jail or prison are also leaders in the tech community. And we know that we work with our partners in tech to create innovative solutions to issues of public safety, whether it have to do with video surveillance or risk assessment algorithms, we are working together with tech leadership to find ways to build safer communities. But there are those, sadly, who want to exploit every tragedy, who want to undermine criminal justice reform and police accountability and who want to go back to an era of Jim Crow in this country. I refuse to be distracted by those folks.

MARTIN: That’s some pretty strong words. I mean, you feel that mostly people are motivated by racism?

BOUDIN: I think some of the major donors behind the recall movement are. I’m sure there’s other who are motivated by other things. We’re living in a difficult period. People are scared. There is a lot of anxiety. There’s a lot of misinformation and disinformation especially on social media. And so, people are being misled. They’re being misled by folks who are exploiting strategies, who are spreading misinformation and who are attempting to undo the will of the voters in San Francisco.

MARTIN: Can I talk a little bit for people who aren’t familiar with your background just about your background? You know, of course, a lot of people know you but a lot of people don’t. You come to law enforcement from kind of a different place than a lot of people do. I mean, both of your parents were, I don’t know if you like this term, kind of political radicals in the 60s. They were both incarcerated throughout your childhood. Do you — could you just talk a little about how or whether that experience informs your approach to policing and to law enforcement?

BOUDIN: You know, like the majority of Americans, I grew up with an immediate family member incarcerated. The majority of Americans have an immediate family member who is either currently or formally incarcerated. So, I have that in common with the vast majority of people in this country. And it is a sad state of affairs when we as a country, the land of the free, lead the world in locking people up. My earliest memories are going through metal detectors and steel gates just to see my parents. Just to give them a hug. I’ve now been visiting my father in prison for nearly 40 years. So, that experience of seeing up close and personal, of being directly impact by this country’s approach to criminal justice has absolutely shaped my life and my perspective that I bring to the work as prosecutor. I know because I’ve lived it and I’ve seen it professionally and personally that our old approach to locking as many people up for as long as possible does not make us safe. It is not humane. It is not cost effective and it does not honor or dignify the suffering of crime victims.

MARTIN: How do you persuade people that your approach is correct who have not had the experience that you have? I mean, a lot of people are used to this binary thinking. You know, there’s the good people and then there’s the bad citizens. And how do you persuade people who aren’t that interested in the humanity of incarcerated persons that your approach is correct? How do you persuade them of that?

BOUDIN: First and foremost, we do it through results. We do the hard work every day of building safe communities of implementing policies that promote public safety. And second, we point out that the world is complicated and it’s nuanced, and we need to recognize that most of the people we are prosecuting in San Francisco and across this country have themselves been victims of serious or violent crimes. In San Francisco, 75 percent of people arrest arrested are drug addicted, mentally ill or both. If we can get at the root causes of those crimes rather than pretending that a cage is going to cure someone of mental illness, we will all be safer and we’ll have more money to invest in the things that reflect our values.

MARTIN: District Attorney Chesa Boudin, thank you so much for talking with us today. I do hope we’ll talk again.

BOUDIN: Thank you so much, Michel. I look forward to next time.