September 1, 2021

> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO 'AMANPOUR AND COMPANY.'

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

THIS DECISION ABOUT AFGHANISTAN IS NOT JUST ABOUT AFGHANISTAN.

IT'S ABOUT ENDING AN ERA OF MAJOR MILITARY OPERATIONS TO REMAKE OTHER COUNTRIES.

THE CLEAREST SIGN YET THAT AMERICA MAY NOT BE BACK BUT PULLING BACK.

FORMER U.S. MILITARY ADVISER AND AFGHANISTAN EXPERT SARAH SHAY DISCUSSES WHAT'S AT STAKE.

AND THE VIEW FROM PAKISTAN, THE TALIBAN'S STRONGEST ALLY WITH FORMER AMBASSADOR IN ISLAMABAD.

THEN, THE W.H.O. IDENTIFIES A NEW COVID VARIANT OF INTEREST AS CASES SURGE AMONGST THE UNVACCINATED.

EPIDEMIOLOGIST, DR. LARRY BRILLIANT JOINS ME FOR A REALITY CHECK.

> PLUS.

WHEN YOU'RE GETTING CALLS SAYING MY BROTHER, MY COUSIN, YOU KNOW, HE CAN NOT GET OUT, PLEASE, I NEED YOUR HELP, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE GOING TO HELP.

HARI SREENIVASAN TALKS TO A FORMER MARINE ABOUT HOW AMERICA'S MILITARY IS PROCESSING THIS RETREAT.

> 'AMANPOUR AND COMPANY' IS MADE POSSIBLE BY SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III, CANDACE KING WEIR, THE CHERYL AND PHILIP MILSTEIN FAMILY.

THE ANDERSON FAMILY FUND, THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, BERNARD AND ANNISE SCHWARTZ.

KOO AND PATRICIA.

ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS, AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

THE FUTURE OF AFGHANISTAN AND AMERICAN FOREIGN POLICIES LIE IN THE BALANCE.

AS PRESIDENT BIDEN DECLARES HIS WITHDRAWAL MARKS NOT JUST AN END TO THAT ENGAGEMENT BUT TO THE WHOLE ERA OF TRYING TO REMAKE OTHER COUNTRIES.

THE TALIBAN ALSO REMAINS DEFIANT.

IN THE FUTURE, THE INFIDELS DID NOT NEED TO COME AND DESTROY OUR LAND.

IN THE FUTURE, GOD WILLING, WE WILL GO TO THEIR LAND AND THEIR COUNTRY, TEN TIMES MORE THAN THEY DID TO OUR COUNTRY.

THE TALIBAN STAGED A MILITARY PARADE IN KANDAHAR.

THE CONSERVATIVE URBAN HEARTLAND IN THE SOUTH SHOWING OFF AMERICAN SUPPLIED VEHICLES AND WEAPONS SEIZED WHEN AFGHAN FORCES PLED, AND A PARADE OF INTERNATIONAL OFFICIALS ARE NOW BEATING A PATH TO THE TALIBAN'S POLITICAL LEADERSHIP IN DOHA, QATAR, TRYING TO MAP OUT A FUTURE RELATIONSHIP.

INCREDIBLE TO WITNESS THIS CHANGE AND SARAH FIRST WENT TO AFGHANISTAN AS A REPORTER AFTER 9/11, AND LATER WENT TO WORK WITH AIDE AGENCIES IN KANDAHAR, AND HAS ADVISED U.S. MILITARY OFFICIALS, INCLUDING THE CHAIRMAN OF THE JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF AND HER LATEST BOOK IS TITLED 'ON CORRUPTION IN AMERICA', AND SHE'S HERE TO EXPLAIN THE CRUCIAL ROLE THIS HAS PLAYED.

WELCOME FROM PARIS.

LET ME ASK YOU, YOU KNOW THEM SO WELL.

YOU WERE THERE FOR SO LONG, AND I HAVE HEARD AMERICAN MILITARY OFFICIALS SAY THE TALIBAN USED THESE LAST 20 YEARS VERY VERY CLEVERLY AND STRATEGICALLY.

IT DIDN'T JUST HAPPEN OVERNIGHT, THIS LAST COUPLE OF, YOU KNOW, WEEKS AND THE FALL.

WHAT DO YOU ATTRIBUTE, HOW DO YOU SEE THE STEPS THAT WERE TAKEN THAT LED TO WHERE WE ARE NOW?

WELL, WHAT I WOULD SAY IS IT'S NOT SO MUCH ESPECIALLY THE TALIBAN WHO USED THIS TIME SO STRATEGICALLY, IT WAS THE PAKISTANI MILITARY INTELLIGENCE AGENCY, WHICH IS THE ORGANIZATION THAT REALLY GINNED UP THE TALIBAN IN THE FIRST PLACE IN THE EARLY 1990s AND STARTING ABOUT 2003, I BEGAN SEEING SIGNS THAT THE ISI, WHICH IS THE ACRONYM OF THAT AGENCY, THAT THE ISI WAS RECONSTITUTING THE TALIBAN.

AND YOU KNOW, AT THAT TIME NO TALIBAN COULD EVEN STAY INSIDE AFGHANISTAN.

THEY WOULD RUN IN, DO ONE ATTACK, AND THEN RUN BACK OUT ACROSS THE BORDER.

AND THEN AS TIME WENT ON, I WATCHED QUITE A SOPHISTICATED CAMPAIGN PLAN DEVELOP THAT RESPONDED WELL TO WHERE NATO FORCES HAD POSITIONED THEMSELVES, AND I WATCHED THAT DEVELOP OVER A MATTER OF YEARS AND IT WAS SOMETIMES DISCOURAGING TO SPEAK TO NATO OFFICERS OR U.S. OFFICERS, WERE SAYING, OH, THE TALIBAN ARE JUST OPPORTUNISTIC, THEY'RE LIKE WATER IN A PLASTIC BAG, YOU SQUISH IT IN ONE PLACE, AND IT POPS OUT SOMEWHERE ELSE.

I SAID, NO, THEY'RE NOT, THEY'RE ACTUALLY EXECUTING QUITE A STRATEGIC PLAN, AND I GUESS I WOULD SAY IN TERMS OF TODAY, THE SAME THING IS TRUE.

LOOK AT THE, YOU KNOW, SIMULTANEOUS SURRENDER AND DEFEAT OF AFGHAN GOVERNMENT FORCES AND CIVILIAN LEADERS ALL AROUND THE COUNTRY, ALMOST AT THE SAME TIME.

LOOK AT THE FOCUS ON THE NORTH FIRST, AND THEN THE SOUTH.

LOOK AT THE PEOPLE WHO FLOODED ACROSS THE BORDER FROM PAKISTAN INTO THE BORDER TOWN OF SPINBOLDAK, AND I WOULD SAY DO WE THINK THIS RAG TAG MILITIA AS WE HAVE BEEN TOLD THE TALIBAN WERE, THAT THEY CONDUCTED SUCH AN EFFECTIVE CAMPAIGN WITH SUCH OBVIOUS PLANNING?

I DON'T THINK SO.

I THINK THEY HAD HELP FROM THE PAKISTANI MILITARY INTELLIGENCE AGENCY.

AND MANY DO ACTUALLY BELIEVE THAT, AND YOU SAID YOU'D INTERVIEWED SO MANY, YOU KNOW, TALIBAN IN THE DAY, BACK IN THE '90s.

THEY DID HAVE KANDAHARI ACCENTS BUT YOU KNEW WHERE THEY HAD COME FROM, AND IT WAS A PARTICULAR MISSION BY PAKISTAN, SO WHY, NOW THE QUESTION IS WHY?

WHY AFTER 20 YEARS WOULD PAKISTAN STILL THROW ITS LOT IN WITH THEM?

IT WAS A WAY TO GAIN AT LEAST PROXY CONTROL OR CLIENT, YOU KNOW, PATRON CONTROL OVER THE TERRITORY OF AFGHANISTAN.

WHAT THE PAKISTANI GOVERNMENT DID NOT WANT WAS A HEALTHY, HAPPY, FORWARD-LOOKING DEMOCRATIC AFGHANISTAN BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, THE MAJOR AFGHAN ETHNIC GROUP, THE PASHTOONS ALSO HAVE A LARGE POPULATION INSIDE PAKISTAN, AND SO YOU KNOW, IF THE PASHTOONS AND AFGHANISTAN WERE ENJOYING A FORWARD-LOOKING PROSPEROUS COUNTRY, WELL, MAYBE THEIR COUSINS AND BROTHERS IN LAW ACROSS THE BORDER IN PAKISTAN WOULD START DEMANDING AN END TO THE MILITARY DICTATORSHIP IN THAT COUNTRY, AND THEN THERE'S THIS RIVALRY WITH INDIA THAT PAKISTAN HAS ALWAYS, YOU KNOW, RAISING AS AN ISSUE.

AND OF COURSE TODAY AS WE SPEAK, YOU'VE GOT PAKISTANI OFFICIALS, YOU'VE GOT INDIAN OFFICIAL, AS I SAID, BRITISH OFFICIALS, ALL OF THEM IN DOHA, TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO DEAL WITH THE TALIBAN.

NOW, GIVEN WHAT PRESIDENT BIDEN SAID AND GIVEN THE STRATEGIC, YOU KNOW, LAYOUT THAT YOU'RE PRESENTING, WELL, HOLD ON A SECOND, WHAT DOES IT MEAN FOR AMERICA AND FOR THE REGION THAT BIDEN HAS SAID THAT'S IT, UNDER MY WATCH, NO MORE REMAKING AMERICA OTHER COUNTRIES, NO MORE NATION BUILDING.

WHAT MESSAGES DOES THIS SEND?

FIRST OF ALL, I DON'T THINK WE EVER DID ANY NATION BUILDING.

I WAS THERE ON THE GROUND, AND I WAS ALSO THERE WITHIN, YOU KNOW, AT THE TOP LEVELS OF THE U.S.

INTER-AGENCY.

AND THERE WAS A CONSTANT REFUSAL TO ADDRESS THE MOST IMPORTANT NATION BUILDING ISSUE, WHICH WAS THE INTEGRITY OF THE AFGHAN GOVERNMENT AND HOW MUCH IT WAS ACTUALLY ACTING IN AFGHAN CITIZENS' INTERESTS AS OPPOSED TO THE PERSONAL INTEREST OF MEMBERS OF THE GOVERNMENT AND THEIR CRONIES.

SO I HAVE TO SAY I DIDN'T FEEL A LOT OF NATION BUILDING, AND THAT'S ALWAYS WHAT WE TOLD OURSELVES.

BUT, IN FACT, I MEAN, I HAVE TO SAY IT'S DISTRESSING TO ME TO LOOK AT IT THIS WAY, BUT, YOU KNOW, IN THE UNITED STATES WE HAVE A LOT OF TOP EXECUTIVES, FIRMS LIKE DEFENSE CONTRACTING FIRMS AND PHARMACEUTICAL FIRMS AND FINANCIAL INVESTMENT FIRMS, AND REAL ESTATE MAGNATES AND FOSSIL FUEL MAGNATES, AND THEY CYCLE IN AND OUT OF GOVERNMENT.

AND LOOK AT THE POLICIES THAT THEY HAVE PROMULGATED, RIGHT, IT'S LIKE TWO LOST WARS, A CLIMATE CRISIS, A FINANCIAL MELTDOWN THAT ALMOST BROUGHT DOWN THE WORLD ECONOMY.

AND FAILURES LIKE THAT AND I GUESS UNFORTUNATELY I WOULD SAY YEAH, MAYBE WE DID REMAKE AFGHANISTAN IN OUR IMAGE.

BUT THAT'S NOT AN IMAGE THAT I'M VERY PROUD OF, AND AFGHANS CERTAINLY WERE NOT HAPPY WITH IT.

WHAT MADE YOU GO SO DEEP INTO THE ISSUE OF CORRUPTION?

YOU KNOW, OBVIOUSLY FOR THE LAST 20 YEARS, WE HAVE BEEN TOLD HOW CORRUPT THE AFGHAN PLAYERS WERE, PARTICULARLY AFGHAN GOVERNMENT.

YOU KNOW, IT HAD SO MUCH MONEY FROM THE INTERNATIONAL CONTRACTORS AND THE AID AND ALL THE REST OF IT.

THIS IS WHAT JOHN SOPKO, WHO WAS THE HEAD OF THE GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTING OFFICE FOR AFGHANISTAN TOLD US RECENTLY.

OUR SYSTEM -- AND WE TALK ABOUT THAT IS IN PLACE BECAUSE OF ROTATIONS OF STAFF, BECAUSE OF THE APPROPRIATIONS CYCLE TO REPORT SUCCESS.

AND THERE'S AN INCENTIVE, I USE THE TERM NOT ONLY HUBEROUS AND MENDACITY, THERE'S AN INCENTIVE TO TELL CONGRESS ONLY THE GOOD NEWS.

SARAH CHASE, HE USES THE WORLD HUBEROUS AND MENDACITY TO TALK ABOUT HIS OWN GOVERNMENT, BASICALLY SAYING NOBODY WANTED TO HEAR BAD NEWS OVER THE LAST 20 YEARS.

WHERE DOES -- HOW DO YOU START FOCUSING ON THE CORRUPTION ISSUE AS DONE BY THE UNITED STATES AND HOW DID THAT PLAY OUT TO WHERE WE ARE TODAY?

I WAS ASKED TO FOCUS ON MY AFGHAN NEIGHBORS, STARTING IN 2002, I WAS IN THE PROCESS OF SETTING UP A RADIO STATION, AND I WAS WITH SOME YOUNG PEOPLE, JUST ASKING THEM WHAT THEY WANTED TO HEAR ON THE RADIO, AND WE STARTED TALKING ABOUT SECURITY.

BUT TO THEM IT WASN'T ABOUT THE TALIBAN.

THE TALIBAN WERE GONE.

IT WAS THE MILITIA FIGHTERS WHO WERE WEARING U.S. ARMY UNIFORMS WHO WERE VIOLENTLY SHAKING THEM DOWN AT STREET CORNERS.

BACK IN 2002.

SO MY AFGHAN NEIGHBORS WERE BESEECHING ME TO EXPLAIN TO THE AMERICAN GOVERNMENT THAT THE CORRUPTION OF THE GOVERNMENT THAT WE WERE SUPPORTING IN AFGHANISTAN WAS DRIVING PEOPLE RIGHT STRAIGHT INTO THE ARMS OF THE TALIBAN.

AND I TRIED, EVERY WAY, AT EVERY LEVEL I COULD, I TRIED TO BRING THAT MESSAGE THROUGH, AND THERE'S ANOTHER POINT THAT'S IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND.

IT'S NOT JUST THE AMOUNT OF MONEY THAT MAY HAVE BEEN PILFERED BY DIFFERENT OFFICIALS AT DIFFERENT LEVELS, IT'S ALSO THE HUMILIATION, YOU KNOW, WHEN A POLICE OFFICER SHAKES YOU DOWN IN THE MIDDLE OF THE ROAD, HE DOESN'T DO IT POLITELY, YOU KNOW, IT'S CONTEMPTUOUS, AND AS WE ALL KNOW, AFGHANS ARE PROUD, AND AFTER A WHILE, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE A YOUNG AFGHAN MAN, YOU HAVE BEEN SHAKEN DOWN IN THOSE WAYS ENOUGH TYPES, YOU WANT TO SHOOT THE POLICEMEN, WELL, IN KANDAHAR, THERE WERE TALIBAN ALL AROUND, IT WAS ALMOST HARD NOT TO JOIN THE TALIBAN, SO I THINK, YOU KNOW, AND YOU DIDN'T NEED A MAJORITY OF THE POPULATION TO TAKE UP ARMS.

YOU JUST NEEDED PEOPLE TO SAY THIS GOVERNMENT IS NOT WORTH MY TAKING A RISK TO DEFEND.

AND I THINK WE'VE ABSOLUTELY SEEN THE RESULTS OF THAT IN THE LAST COUPLE OF WEEKS.

AND FLASH FORWARD ALSO TO IT'S ONE THING FOR THE AFGHAN GOVERNMENT, YOU KNOW, TO BE NOT WORTH DEFENDING AS YOU POINT OUT, BUT AGAIN, YOU WRITE SOME EXTRAORDINARY STUFF ABOUT HOW THE UNITED STATES OFFICIALLY DECIDED TO JUST IGNORE THE ISSUE OF CORRUPTION.

LET ME READ A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHAT YOU HAVE SAID.

IN 2011, WHEN THE U.S. DECIDED IT WOULD NO LONGER ADDRESS CORRUPTION IN AFGHANISTAN, YOU WRITE IT WAS NOW EXPLICIT POLICY TO IGNORE ONE OF THE TWO FACTORS THAT WOULD DETERMINE THE FATE OF ALL OF OUR EFFORTS.

THAT'S WHEN I KNEW TODAY THAT THE FALL OF KABUL WAS INEVITABLE.

WHY WOULD THEY TAKE THAT CATEGORIC DECISION?

IT JUST SEEMS SO UN-AMERICAN.

YOU KNOW, I THINK, AND THIS IS WHERE I HOLD CIVILIAN, TOP CIVILIAN OFFICIALS ACCOUNTABLE.

I THINK THEY REALLY WERE AFRAID THAT IT WAS GOING TO BLOW UP INTO THE NEWSPAPERS.

YOU KNOW, PRESIDENT KARZAI AT THE TIME WAS VERY DEFT AT MAKING A BIG FUSS.

AT THAT TIME, YOU KNOW, THERE WERE TWO WARS GOING ON.

THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION HAD OTHER PRIORITIES, AND THERE WAS A VERY STRONG FEELING THAT I RECEIVED THAT THE WHITE HOUSE DID NOT WANT AFGHANISTAN TO BLOW UP IN PRESIDENT OBAMA'S FACE.

AND I ALSO HAVE TO SAY THAT IF THE U.S. GOVERNMENT DECIDED TO ADDRESS CORRUPTION, WELL, THAT WAS GOING TO BE A JOB FOR CIVILIANS TO TAKE ON, RIGHT?

MEN AND WOMEN IN UNIFORM, THEY'RE NOT PARTICULARLY, THAT'S NOT WHAT THEY KNOW HOW TO DO, AND THOSE AREN'T THEIR COUNTER PARTS.

AND I FRANKLY DON'T THINK THAT CIVILIAN OFFICIALS WANTED TO TAKE IT ON.

THEY DIDN'T WANT TO SHOULDER THAT RESPONSIBILITY.

IT WAS ACTUALLY EASIER TO KIND OF HOIST EVERYTHING OFF ON TO THE MILITARY AND THEN BLAME THE MILITARY.

DO YOU THINK THERE WAS ANOTHER WAY?

AND I ASK YOU BECAUSE I SPOKE TO RULER GHANI WHO WAS THE, YOU KNOW, THE FIRST LADY, I SPOKE TO HER EARLIER THIS YEAR, AND SHE ALSO COMPLAINED QUITE STRONGLY THAT AS YOU KNOW BETTER THAN I, YOU KNOW, 75 TO 80% OF AFGHAN FUNDING AND PUBLIC SERVICES IS BASED ON FOREIGN ASSISTANCE AND ALL THAT THAT COMES OUTSIDE WITH A DEPLOYMENT LIKE THIS.

BUT SHE SAID IT WAS OFTEN GOING INTO THE WRONG POCKETS.

THIS IS WHAT SHE TOLD ME.

THE NGO IS NOT A SUSTAINABLE ONE BECAUSE IT'S A CYCLICAL MODEL AND AT THE END OF EVERY CYCLE, THE NGO PEOPLE HAVE TO GO AROUND WITH THEIR BEGGING BALL AND ASK FOR MORE FUNDS.

THEY STILL CAN RECEIVE FUNDS FROM ABROAD, BUT THEY SHOULD BE ACCOUNTABLE TO THE PEOPLE THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO BE SERVING.

WELL, THERE'S RULA GHANI, OBVIOUSLY SITTING NEXT TO ASHRAF GHANI WHO FLED ON SUNDAY THE 16th WHEN KABUL FELL.

GIVEN YOUR WORK IN NGOs, GIVEN WHAT INEVITABLY IS GOING TO HAVE TO HAPPEN, AFGHANISTAN IS GOING TO HAVE TO BE HELPED BY FOREIGN ASSISTANCE AS HALF THE POPULATION LIVES IN P POVERTY.

IS THERE ANOTHER WAY OR ARE WE LOOKING AT ENDLESS MONEY GOING INTO A DARK HOLE IF THAT'S INDEED WHAT INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY DOES WITH THE TALIBAN?

WELL, FIRST OF ALL, I WOULD LIKE TO SAY WITH RESPECT TO THE TALIBAN, I DON'T THINK THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY SHOULD TURN THE SPIGOTS BACK ON.

I MEAN, AS WE'VE JUST BEEN DISCUSSING EVEN WHEN WE WERE MORE OR LESS IN CHARGE OF HOW THAT MONEY WAS DISTRIBUTED, NOT MUCH OF IT MADE ITS WAY, NOT ENOUGH OF IT MADE ITS WAY TO THE ORDINARY PEOPLE.

WELL, WHAT ABOUT THE TALIBAN?

HOW CAN WE EXPECT THAT THEY WOULD NOT DO EXACTLY WHAT WESTERN-BACKED GOVERNMENT DID AND PUT THE MONEY IN THEIR OWN POCKETS.

I WOULD SAY AS THE WEST IS CONSIDERING RECOGNITION OR PROVIDING RESOURCES AGAIN, TREAT THE TALIBAN LIKE A HOSTILE COUNTRY THE WAY YOU WOULD A TREATY, AN ARMS CONTROL TREATY, AND INCLUDE VERIFICATION PROVISIONS THAT THE CONDITIONS THAT, YOU KNOW, THE TALIBAN HAVE ANNOUNCED THEY WOULD UPHOLD ARE, IN FACT, UPHELD, AND THAT MEANS, YOU KNOW, INDEPENDENT VERIFICATION ON THE GROUND.

AND THAT'S WHAT I REALLY WISH HAD HAPPENED UNDER THE WESTERN BACKED GOVERNMENT, THE DIFFERENT WAY OF APPROACHING IT WOULD HAVE BEEN MORE OVERSIGHT.

IT'S NOT THE NGO MODEL THAT'S THE PROBLEM.

IT'S THE LACK OF OVERSIGHT.

CERTAINLY LESSONS LEARNED, SARAH CHASE, WE'LL SEE IF THEY ARE, IN FACT, PUT INTO PRACTICE GOING FORWARD.

NOW, AS WE SAID, ONE COUNTRY THAT HAS A LOT AT STAKE AS THE TALIBAN TAKES OVER IS NEIGHBORING PAKISTAN, AND MY NEXT GUEST SAYS THERE'S MUCH TO FEAR IF AFGHANISTAN DESCENDS AGAIN INTO CIVIL WAR.

MALIA LODY IS THE FORMER AMBASSADOR TO THE U.S., U.K. AND THE UNITED NATIONS, AND SHE'S JOINING ME NOW FROM ISLAMABAD.

WELCOME BACK TO YOUR PROGRAM.

I GUESS FIRST AND FOREMOST, I DON'T KNOW IF YOU HEARD SARAH, BUT MOST OF THE WORLD BELIEVES AND KNOWS THAT THE TALIBAN WERE A VERY CLOSE PRODUCT OF YOUR COUNTRY.

DO YOU REGRET THAT, AND 20 YEARS LATER, DO YOU WISH YOUR COUNTRY HAD DONE SOMETHING DIFFERENT?

I THINK WE HAVE TO PUT THIS QUESTION IN ITS PROPER PERSPECTIVE.

I CAN UNDERSTAND THE INSTINCT TO BLAME SOMEBODY FOR WHAT HAS BEEN A U.S.-LED, WESTERN DEBACLE IN AFGHANISTAN, 20 YEARS OF A WAR WAGED BY THE MOST POWERFUL ARMY IN THE WORLD LED TO THE OUTCOME THAT YOU HAVE SEEN WITH PRESIDENT BIDEN SAYING THERE IS NO MILITARY SOLUTION, AND HE'S ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

THAT'S WHAT MY COUNTRY SAID AT THE VERY START OF THIS WAR, THAT THERE WOULD NEVER BEEN A MILITARY SOLUTION.

AND AS FOR PAKISTAN'S ROLE, YES, WE KEPT OUR CHANNEL OF COMMUNICATION OPEN WITH THE TALIBAN, AND IF WE HADN'T, PAKISTAN WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN ABLE TO PLAY THE CONSTRUCTIVE ROLE IT PLAYED IN HELPING IN THE SEQUENCE OF EVENTS THAT LED TO THE DOHA AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES AND THE TALIBAN.

PLUS, THE FACT THAT THE U.S.

MILITARY HAD NO CASUALTIES, NO COMEBACK CASUALTIES FOR A YEAR AND A HALF SINCE THE SIGNING OF THE DOHA AGREEMENT WAS ALSO IN LARGE PART DUE TO PAKISTAN'S ROLE IN PERSUADING AND COAXING AND NUDGING THE TALIBAN TO WORDS OF NEGOTIATION, AND WORDS OF POLITICAL SOLUTION.

I CAN TELL YOU, PAKISTAN HAS THE MOST TO GAIN FROM PEACE AND STABILITY IN AFGHANISTAN, AND AS YOU SAID, IT ALSO HAS THE GREATEST TO FEAR IF AFGHANISTAN DESCENDS INTO MORE FIGHT, ANOTHER BOUT OF CIVIL WAR.

SO YOU KNOW, HERE WE ARE, AND I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT NOT TO KEEP OBSESSING ABOUT THE PAST BUT TO FOCUS ON THE FUTURE AND TO SEE HOW THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY CAN CONTRIBUTE TO PEACE AND STABILITY IN AFGHANISTAN.

THERE ARE HEAVY STAKES FOR EVERYONE, NOT JUST PAKISTAN.

THAT'S THE BIG QUESTION, AMBASSADOR, THAT'S THE BIG QUESTION.

AND THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS THERE WAS A MILITARY SOLUTION AND THE TALIBAN WON.

THAT WAS A MILITARY SOLUTION, AND THEY WON.

AND YOU'RE NOW SAYING THAT YOU HELPED THE UNITED STATES, YOU KNOW, YOU, I THINK I'M READING THROUGH THROUGH THE LINES THAT IT WAS CLEAR THAT THE U.S.

WASN'T BEING ATTACKED OVER THE LAST 18 MONTHS OF THE DOHA AGREEMENT, SO WHAT DO YOU WANT TO SEE GOING FORWARD?

WHAT WILL STOP AFGHANISTAN DESCENDING INTO ANOTHER CIVIL WAR?

AND DON'T FORGET, YOU KNOW, EVEN THOUGH YOU DON'T LIKE TO POINT THE FINGER OF BLAME, YOUR OWN PRIME MINISTER HAS SAID THAT THE TALIBAN HAS DELIVERED AFGHANISTAN FROM SLAVERY.

WHAT DO YOU WANT TO SEE THERE, AND WHAT CAN THEY DELIVER?

I THINK WHAT WE WANT TO SEE IS DECENT STABILITY BECAUSE MY COUNTRY HAS SUFFERED THROUGH FOUR DECADES OF WAR, STRIFE, AND FOREIGN MILITARY INTERVENTIONS IN AFGHANISTAN AND THE FALLOUT IS BEFORE YOU.

I MEAN, YOU'VE BEEN TO THIS PART OF THE WORLD.

YOU HAVE TRAVELED THROUGH PAKISTAN AND TO AFGHANISTAN, AND YOU HAVE SEEN WE HAD TO DEAL WITH REFUGEES, MILLIONS OF THEM.

WE HAD TO DEAL WITH A SECURITY CHALLENGE.

WE ALSO HAD TO DEAL WITH THE PROBLEM OF DRUGS.

I MEAN, WE HAD TO DEAL WITH THE WITCH'S BREW OF PROBLEMS THAT CAME FROM THAT.

AND I THINK WHAT WE WOULD LIKE TO SEE IN AFGHANISTAN AND WHAT WE WOULD LIKE TO SEE THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY DO IN AFGHANISTAN IS TO REMAIN UNITED AND TO ENGAGE WITH THE NEW GOVERNMENT, WHENEVER IT'S FORMED AND TO ENSURE THAT AFGHANISTAN, WE DON'T SEE AFGHANISTAN GOING INTO A STATE OF COLLAPSE.

THAT CAN HAPPEN.

LOOK, THE ECONOMIC SITUATION IS THERE IS VERY DIRE, SO AS FAR AS PAKISTAN IS CONCERNED, WE, LIKE OTHER NEIGHBORING COUNTRIES, WOULD ALSO LIKE THE TALIBAN TO HOLD FIRM TO THEIR COMMITMENTS THAT THEY HAVE MADE TO THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY.

FOR EXAMPLE, THEY HAVE SAID THAT THEY WILL NOT ALLOW THEIR SOIL TO BE USED AGAINST ATTACKS AMONG ANY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE REGION OR, IN FACT, IN THE WORLD.

SO I THINK THAT'S WHAT WE WOULD LIKE TO HOLD THEM TO, BUT IN ORDER TO ENSURE THAT THEY ARE ABLE TO DELIVER ON THEIR PROMISES, WE NEED TO ALSO ENSURE THAT THEY'RE NOT PUSHED TO THE WALL AND THAT THEY ARE ENCOURAGED BECAUSE INTERNATIONAL ENGAGEMENT SO FAR SEEMS TO HAVE HAD AT LEAST AN INITIAL MODERATING EFFECT.

SO AMBASSADOR LODI, YOU'RE A WOMAN, YOU KNOW FIRSTHAND THAT THE BIGGEST FEAR THERE IS AMONGST THE WOMEN, AMONGST MANY OTHER PEOPLE OF COURSE BUT FOR THEIR RIGHTS TO BE DISMISSED AS BEFORE.

I GUESS WHAT I WANT TO KNOW FROM YOU, YOU'VE SAT AT ALL THE, YOU KNOW, NEGOTIATING TABLES AT THE WORLD OF DIPLOMACY SINCE 9/11, WHO IS GOING TO TEACH THE TALIBAN, WHO HAVE ONLY TAKEN TERRITORY AND WHO HAVE NEVER GOVERNED, WHO ARE GOING TO TEACH THEM TO DO ALL THE THINGS YOU'VE JUST ASKED, AND WHAT IS THE WORLD'S REACTION GOING TO BE?

BECAUSE WE'VE ALL ALREADY HAD, YOU KNOW, VERY SENIOR WESTERN AND OTHER OFFICIALS, YOU JUST HEARD SARAH CHASE, BASICALLY SAYING WE SHOULD NOT ENGAGE WITH THEM.

IT'S A TERRORIST ORGANIZATION.

THEY MUST BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE TO THE INTERNATIONAL NORMS.

HOW IS THAT GOING TO HAPPEN, DO YOU THINK?

LOOK, FOR A START, ENGAGEMENT AS MADE POSSIBLE THE EVACUATION THAT TOOK PLACE AND AS YOU KNOW, MY COUNTRY ALSO HELPED TO EVACUATE OVER 10,000 PEOPLE.

NOW IF THE WEST HAD NOT ENGAGED WITH THE TALIBAN, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN NEXT TO IMPOSSIBLE FOR THEM TO EVACUATE THEMSELVES, THEIR SOLDIERS, AND THEIR NATIONALS, AND THEIR PARTNERS, SO TO SPEAK.

SO I THINK ENGAGEMENT DOES PAY.

THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY HAS ASKED, I MEAN, AMONGST IT'S THREE KEY ASKS ARE THE FOLLOWING, ONE, COUNTER TERRORISM, MAKE SURE THAT ALL OF THESE VIOLENT GROUPS ON YOUR SOIL ARE NOT GOING TO ATTACK ANYONE.

SECONDLY, FORM AN INCLUSIVE GOVERNMENT BECAUSE AFGHANISTAN IS ETHNICALLY DIVIDED, AND IF THERE ISN'T A BROAD-BASED GOVERNMENT, THE DANGER IS ALWAYS THERE OF AFGHANISTAN DESCENDING INTO ANOTHER BOUT OF CIVIL WAR OR CHAOS.

AND NUMBER THREE, AND PAKISTAN IS PART OF THE INTERNATIONAL CONSENSUS AND THE CORE POINTS, RESPECT HUMAN RIGHTS, AND RESPECT WOMEN'S RIGHTS.

LOOK, I DO NOT WISH TO HAVE AFGHANISTAN TAKE A PATH THAT IS ANY DIFFERENT FROM THE PATH THAT MANY OF US IN DEVELOPING COUNTRIES ARE TAKING, AND I THINK WHAT WE HAVE BEEN HEARING FROM THE TALIBAN ARE A SET OF PROMISES AND COMMITMENTS AND ALSO THAT THEY DON'T WANT TO GO BACK TO THE DARK DAYS.

NOW, WE HOPE THAT THEY WILL NOT GO BACK TO THE DARK DAYS.

THERE'S NO GUARANTEE, OF COURSE, BUT I THINK THAT THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY SHOULD HOLD FIRM BUT ALSO STAY UNITED.

BUT IF THE INTERNATIONAL CONSENSUS BEGINS TO FRAY, THEN I THINK IT WILL PROVIDE WIGGLE ROOM TO THE TALIBAN TO BACK OUT OF THESE PROMISES.

THEY MUST BE HELD TO THESE PROMISES, AND THAT'S WHAT PAKISTAN NEEDS.

WE'LL BE WATCHING, AND WE'LL BE WATCHING PAKISTAN'S INFLUENCE IN THE SECOND 20 YEARS OF THE TALIBAN, AND HOPING THAT WHAT THEY SAY IS NOT JUST A ONE OFF FOR THE MOMENT.

AMBASSADOR, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US.

THANK YOU.

> AND WE TURN NOW TO THE PANDEMIC OF COURSE WHICH RAGES AROUND THE WORLD AS CASES SURGE IN THE UNITED STATES, THE EU IS RECOMMENDING A NEW BAN ON NONESSENTIAL TRAVEL FOR AMERICANS.

AT THE SAME TIME, THE W.H.O. HAS IDENTIFIED A NEW COVID VARIANT OF INTEREST.

THE NEW VARIANT WAS FIRST IDENTIFIED IN COLOMBIA, LATIN AMERICA, AND IT'S SINCE BEEN FOUNDED IN 39 OTHER COUNTRIES AND IT COULD BE MORE RESISTANT TO VACCINES.

EM DEEMOLOGIST DR. LARRY BRILLIANT HELPED DEFEAT SMALLPOX IN THE 1970s, AND HE'S JOINING ME NOW FROM CALIFORNIA WITH HIS EXPERTISE AND WISDOM ON THESE MATTERS.

SO DR. LARRY, WITH THESE VARIANTS AND TRYING TO GET A REALITY CHECK OF WHAT'S GOING ON RIGHT NOW, AND HEARING HOW, YOU KNOW, EU MIGHT BE PUTTING IN VARIOUS TRAVEL BANS AND THE LIKE, WHAT IS THE THING THAT'S MOST CONCERNING YOU RIGHT NOW AS WE SPEAK TODAY WITH THE CURRENT SURGE?

FIRST OF ALL, WELCOME BACK, IT'S REALLY WONDERFUL TO HAVE YOU.

THE NEW VARIANT SMELLED NU IS THE GREEK LETTER NU.

IT MAY GET CONFUSING BECAUSE IT IS THE NEWEST VARIANT, BUT EVEN THAT LITTLE ANECDOTE, I THINK, REVEALS WHAT WE'RE SEEING, WHICH IS A VIRUS WHICH IS CONTINUALLY MAKING, CREATING, SELECTING FOR NEW VARIANTS THAT HAVE A PARTICULAR SET OF CHARACTERISTICS.

THEY ARE EITHER MUCH MORE TRANSMISSIBLE, THE DELTA VARIANT BEING PERHAPS THE MOST TRANSMISSIBLE VIRUS WE HAVE EVER SEEN IN A LIVING MEMORY, AND THE NEW VARIANT WHICH SEEMS TO BE SELECTING FOR WAYS IN WHICH TO DEFEAT OUR VACCINES AND OUR PREVIOUS IMMUNITY.

I THINK THAT'S THE THING WHICH HAS TO WORRY US THE MOST IS THIS PERPETUAL SPINNING OFF OF VARIANTS AND PARTICULARLY BECAUSE WE'RE NOT REALLY SURE HOW THAT HAPPENS.

WE THINK IT HAPPENS WHEN THERE'S AN EVENT.

IT HAPPENS SOMETIMES WHEN ONE INDIVIDUAL IS IMMUNOCOMPROMISED AND HAS THE VARIANT OR THE VIRUS WITHIN THEM FOR A LONG TIME, AND JUST LIKE THE OLD DAYS OF HIV/AIDS, IF SOMEBODY HAD TUBERCULOSIS, THEY WOULD CREATE A VERY RESISTANT FORM OF TUBERCULOSIS, SOMEHOW THE VIRUS SEEMS TO DO SOMETHING NOT EXACTLY LIKE THAT BUT SIMILAR.

AND THE OTHER KIND OF EVENT IS WHEN YOU HAVE SOMETHING LIKE THE KUMELA IN INDIA, SOME HUGE EVENT WITH LOTS OF CASES ALL HAPPENING ALL AT ONCE, VARIANTS OCCUR UNDER CIRCUMSTANCES LIKE THAT.

SO OBVIOUSLY FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE IN THEIR HOMES, VERY HUMAN CONCERNS ARE RIGHT NOW, I GUESS, FOR KIDS GOING BACK TO SCHOOL.

LET ME JUST READ A COUPLE OF THINGS.

THERE'S BEEN FOUR TO FIVE TIME INCREASE IN COVID CASES AMONGST CHILDREN IN THE LAST MONTH ALONE IN THE UNITED STATES, AND YOU KNOW, VIRUSES AMONGST THEM ARE SURGING, FLU AS A WILD CARD.

SCHOOLS DON'T HAVE MASK MANDATES, AND OBVIOUSLY KIDS UNDER A CERTAIN AGE DON'T GET VACCINES.

DO YOU SEE THIS AS A POTENTIAL, YOU KNOW, SORT OF SUPER SPREADER WHEN EVERYBODY STARTS GOING BACK TO SCHOOL?

YOU PUT YOUR FINGER ON IT.

I DO SEE IT.

I DO WORRY ABOUT IT.

ALL OF THE MODELS BEFORE WE CAME TO THE END OF THE SUMMER IN THE UNITED STATES AND ELSEWHERE SUGGEST THAT THE DELTA VARIANT WAS SO TRANSMISSIBLE THAT WE'D GET A RAPID UP AND A RAPID DOWN, A KIND OF INVERTED V KIND OF EPIDEMIC CURVE, AND THAT'S CONTINUED ELSEWHERE IN THE WORLD.

WE ARE SEEING THE DELTA VARIANT BURN HOT AND QUICK AND THEN MOVE ON.

IN THE UNITED STATES, WE PREDICTED THE SAME THING.

THE MODELS ALL SHOWED THAT, BUT NOW WE'RE PLATEAUING, AND I THINK THAT THE REASON WE'RE PLATEAUING, WE MUST LOOK AT THE FACT THAT THIS WEEK, NEXT WEEK AND A ONE-MONTH PERIOD, 100,000 SCHOOLS ARE OPENING UP.

100,000 SCHOOLS ARE OPENING UP, AND MOST OF THEM DON'T HAVE VACCINE MANDATES, THEY DON'T HAVE MASK MANDATES, AND FOR THESE YOUNG CHILDREN WHO WE USED TO THINK DIDN'T GET OR CARRY THE VIRUS, THEY CERTAINLY DO GET, CARRY AND SPREAD THE DELTA VARIANT, WE'RE PUTTING THEM IN HARM'S WAY.

WE'RE NOT THINKING OF THESE KIDS FIRST WHO CAN'T BE VACCINATED YET, ARE NOT BEING MASKED IN SOME STATES, CAN'T BE PROTECTED WITH TESTING BECAUSE IT'S TOO EXPENSIVE, REALLY, FOR PUBLIC SCHOOLS.

SO I'M VERY WORRIED THAT THAT, WHAT WE EXPECTED TO BE THAT RAPID UP AND DOWN FROM THE DELTA VARIANT IS RUNNING INTO AN EVENT.

AND THIS EVENT IS THE OPENING OF SCHOOLS.

WHICH IS A SHAME BECAUSE YOU SAY IT COULD ACTUALLY HAVE DONE THE RIGHT THING HAD IT BEEN DEALT WITH IN THE RIGHT WAY.

SO MAYBE JUST QUICKLY ASK YOU, BECAUSE VACCINE MANDATES OBVIOUSLY, YOU KNOW, IT'S A BIG ISSUE.

SINCE THE FDA FORMALLY APPROVED ALL OF THESE VACCINES, WE'VE SEEN AN UPTICK IN VACCINES, THAT MUST HEARTEN YOU, AND DOES IT MAKE YOU THINK THAT THERE WILL BE MORE EFFORT AND ACCEPTANCE OF VACCINE MANDATES THAT SAY IN THE UNITED STATES?

YES, IT DOES.

WE HAVE ABOUT 90 MILLION UNVACCINATED PEOPLE IN THE UNITED STATES, MAYBE HALF OR 40% OF THOSE ARE KIDS, SOON, I HOPE WILL BE ABLE TO GET THE VACCINE.

THE PROBLEM THAT WE FACE IS WE'VE ALWAYS TALKED IN THE PAST ABOUT HERD IMMUNITY, AND WE THOUGHT IT WAS SOMETHING LIKE 60, 70, 80%, BUT WITH A VARIANT LIKE DELTA, HERD IMMUNITY APPROACHES, 100%, 95%, THESE ARE ALMOST UNAPPROACHABLE LEVELS.

WE HAVE TO, FIRST OF ALL, GET AS MUCH VACCINE AS WE CAN TO THE REST OF THE WORLD.

WE ARE NOT AN ISLAND, ESPECIALLY NOT IN A PANDEMIC, AND THE VERY FIRST THING WE NEED TO DO IS TO MAKE SURE THAT THERE'S AN EQUITABLE AMOUNT OF VACCINE, AT LEAST AS A BASELINE.

ALL COUNTRIES OF COURSE WILL NOT BE ABLE TO GET THE SAME AMOUNT OF VACCINE, AND THE SECOND THING, WE NEED TO DO WHAT WE HAVE DONE HISTORICALLY FOR ALL THE OTHER MAJOR DISEASES.

WE NEED TO HAVE A GLOBAL PLAN.

WE NEED TO HAVE GLOBAL LEADERSHIP, A GLOBAL LEADER, A PLACE WE CAN POINT TO, AND THOSE ARE THINGS WHICH I THINK ARE REALLY CRITICAL RIGHT NOW.

WELL, LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT THAT BECAUSE IN CONVERSATION BEFORE THIS INTERVIEW, YOU SAID PUBLIC HEALTH OFFICIALS, GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS, THE LIKE, WILL LOOK BACK, AND I THINK YOU ALSO ARE CONCERNED ABOUT SOME OF THE FAILURES, AND SOME OF THE FAILURES ARE YOU SAY VIRUSES WILL DO WHAT VIRUSES DO, BUT WE HAVE HAD IT IN OUR HANDS SEVERAL TIMES TO STOP THIS PANDEMIC AT VARIOUS STAGES.

AND YOU LIST WUHAN, AND YOU LIST, YOU KNOW, THE UNITED STATES AND YOU GO ON.

JUST SUM UP FOR US HOW WE COULD HAVE DONE THIS DIFFERENTLY?

I THINK THAT THERE'S A WHOLE COMMUNITY OF EPIDEMIOLOGISTS THAT WERE PREDICTING THERE WOULD BE AN EPIDEMIC AND PANDEMIC LIKE THIS, IT'S NOT IF, IT'S WHEN.

WE GOT A LOT OF IT RIGHT.

THE ONE THING WE DID NOT GET RIGHT, WHEN WE DID THE MOVIE CONTAGION OR HAD COUNTLESS MEETINGS, WE DIDN'T EXPECT GOVERNMENT INEPTITUDE AND POLITICAL ENTRY INTO THE RESPONSE, AND WUHAN, WHEN THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT ALLOWED MILLIONS OF CHINESE TOURISTS AND REBELERS TO LEAVE WUHAN FOR THE CHINESE NEW YEAR, CARRYING THE VIRUS ALL OVER THE WORLD, IF THEY HADN'T DONE THAT, WE WOULD HAVE BEEN ABLE TO HAVE A CHANCE TO CORNER THE VIRUS IN A SMALL PLACE, AND IN THE UNITED STATES, WHEN THE VIRUS REACHED OUR SHORES AND PRESIDENT TRUMP SAID HE DIDN'T WANT THOSE CASES COUNTED AGAINST HIS RECORD, EVEN PUSHING AWAY OR TRYING TO PUSH AWAY A CRUISE SHIP, THAT SET A TONE WHERE IT BECAME POLITICAL AND FINDING ALL THE CASES BECAME ADVERSE TO SOMEONE'S POLITICAL CAREER, FINDING ALL THE CASES IS THE NECESSARY CONDITION IN ORDER TO STOP THE PANDEMIC.

SO WHEN WE LOOK BACK, WE'LL LOOK BACK AT THE VIROLOGY, WE'LL LOOK AT WHERE DID IT BEGIN, THE ORIGIN OF IT, AND WE'LL REALLY LOOK BACK AT POLITICAL INEPTITUDE AND PARTISAN POLITICS.

I DON'T KNOW WHETHER THIS PLAYS INTO IT RIGHT NOW, BUT THE IDEA OF BOOSTERS OBVIOUSLY IS GETTING A HUGE AMOUNT OF PLAY.

THE U.S. HAS SUGGESTED THAT POTENTIALLY, AT LEAST THE PRESIDENT, IT COULD HAPPEN IN THE U.S. BY THE END OF THE MONTH, BUT THE FDA HASN'T WEIGHED IN, AND WE HAVE HEARD REPORTS OF SOME FDAs QUITTING BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT HAPPY ABOUT IT.

FRUSTRATION THAT THE U.S. IS, OR RATHER THE PRESIDENT IS GETTING AHEAD OF THE FDA ON THIS.

WHERE ARE YOU ON BOOSTERS AND WOULD IT MAKE A BIG DIFFERENCE RIGHT NOW?

FIRST, I'M VERY SADDENED BY THIS.

TED RIS, THE DIRECTOR OF W.H.O.

SAID DON'T GIVE BOOSTERS UNTIL EVERYBODY IN THE WORLD GETS A CERTAIN NUMBER.

WHY SHOULD SOME PEOPLE GET THREE DOSES AND 90% OF THE WORLD GET NOTHING, AND I THINK THAT'S FROM THE EQUITY LENS, INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT.

BUT IT SHOULDN'T BE EITHER/OR.

WE HAVE IN THE UNITED STATES 10, 14% OF OUR POPULATION OVER 65 HAVE SOME IMMUNOCOMPROMISED STATE AND HAVE NOT HAD THEIR SECOND DOSE FOR SIX OR EIGHT MONTHS.

THOSE PEOPLE ALSO, NOT ONLY IS IT EQUITABLE TO GIVE IT TO THEM, BUT THEY ALSO POTENTIALLY COULD COOK THE VIRUS, AND MAKE IT INTO VARIANTS IF WE'RE NOT CAREFUL.

I THINK PUTTING THESE TWO COMMUNITIES AGAINST EACH OTHER IS WHAT MAKES ME SAD.

AS FAR AS A THIRD DOSE FOR EVERYBODY, YOU KNOW, IT'S GOING TO BE A TOUGH CALL.

WE ARE FINDING THAT TWO DOSES OF PFIZER ARE ONLY 40, 45% EFFECTIVE AGAINST THE DELTA VARIANT, PEOPLE GETTING IT.

NOT GETTING SICK, WE HAVE 90% PROTECTION GETTING REALLY SICK.

GETTING ON A VENTILATOR, THE MORTALITY RATE IS DROPPING DRAMATICALLY.

I THINK WE OUGHT TO FIRST TAKE CARE OF THE PEOPLE WHO ARE IMMUNOCOMPROMISED, THE ELDERLY WHO HAVE NOT HAD THEIR SECOND VACCINE, A LOT OF TIME HAS ELAPSED AND QUICKLY TRY TO EXPORT NOT JUST VACCINE BUT VACCINE MANUFACTURING FACILITIES ALL OVER THE WORLD, AND TAKE THIS AS SERIOUSLY ON A GLOBAL LEVEL AS WE SHOULD, AND THEN WE CAN COME BACK AND GIVE THIRD DOSES TO EVERYBODY.

REALLY IMPORTANT, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

GREAT TO HEAR FROM YOU DR. LARRY BRILLIANT.

AND NOW, PRESIDENT BIDEN ALSO WANTS TO HIGHLIGHT THE MENTAL TOLL OF WAR ON SERVICE MEMBERS AND VETERANS.

WE SEE IN THE SHOCKING AND STUNNING STATISTICS THAT SHOULD GIVE PAUSE TO ANYONE WHO THINKS WAR CAN EVER BE LOW GRADE, LOW RISK, OR LOW COST.

18 VETERANS ON AVERAGE WHO DIE BY SUICIDE EVERY SINGLE DAY IN AMERICA.

NOT IN A FAR OFF PLACE, BUT RIGHT HERE IN AMERICA.

THERE'S NOTHING LOW GRADE OR LOW RISK OR LOW COST ABOUT ANY WAR.

IT'S TIME TO END THE WAR IN AFGHANISTAN.

SOMEONE WHO'S EXPERIENCED THAT FIRSTHAND IS A FORMER MARINE AND BEST SELLING AUTHOR, ELLIOT ACKERMAN, HE SERVED FIVE TOURS IN IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN, AND HE'S NOW HELPED HUNDREDS OF AFGHANS ESCAPE.

HE CALLS IT A DIGITAL, AND NOW TALKING TO HARI SREENIVASAN.

WHAT HAD BEEN HAPPENING WITH YOU AND YOUR FRIENDS WHO HAD SERVED TOGETHER WITH AFGHANS OVER THE PAST FEW WEEKS AND MONTHS, I MEAN, WHO ARE THE PEOPLE THAT SERVED WITH YOU?

WHAT DID THEY DO AND HELP YOU WITH?

AND WHY WAS THAT FEELING SO VISCERAL FOR YOU TO RESPOND TO THESE FOLKS THAT YOU MIGHT NOT HAVE SEEN IN YEARS?

THESE ARE MY FRIENDS.

I MEAN, THESE ARE MY WAR BUDDIES.

WHEN I SERVED IN AFGHANISTAN, I SERVED EXCLUSIVELY AS AN ADVISER TO AFGHAN SPECIAL OPERATIONS UNITS.

WHEN I WAS IN BATTLE, I LOOKED TO MY LEFT AND RIGHT, THERE WERE AFGHANS I WAS FIGHTING ALONGSIDE, AND IN THE INTERVENING YEARS, MANY HAVE COME TO THE UNITED STATES, BUT THEIR YOUNGER BROTHERS, THEIR COUSINS, THEIR FAMILIES HAVE ALIGNED THEMSELVES WITH THE FORMER AFGHAN GOVERNMENT AND WITH OUR COUNTRY.

AND YOU KNOW, THESE ARE PEOPLE WHO BASICALLY ACCEPTED THE PROMISES THAT WE HAD MADE THEM OVER TWO DECADES AT FACE VALUE AND PUT THEIR LIVES ON THE LINE TO MAKE GOOD ON THOSE PROMISES.

SO AT THE END OF THE DAY, YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE AN OBLIGATION TO HELP THESE FOLKS, AND SO WHEN YOU'RE GETTING CALLS FROM SOMEONE WHO YOU FOUGHT ALONGSIDE SAYING, YOU KNOW, MY BROTHER, MY COUSIN, YOU KNOW, HE CAN NOT GET OUT, PLEASE, I NEED YOUR HELP, YOU'RE GOING TO HELP.

WHAT WAS THEIR IMMEDIATE FEAR?

DID THEY KNOW THEY WERE ON WATCH LISTS?

AS THEY SAW, TOO, NEWS OF THE TALIBAN TAKING OVER ONE PART OF THE COUNTRY AND ANOTHER CITY AND ANOTHER PROVINCE?

ABSOLUTELY.

THESE PEOPLE, FIRST OF ALL, I MEAN, JUST THE ATTACK, KIND OF THE GRANULAR LEVEL OF IT.

IN AFGHANISTAN, VIRTUALLY EVERY PERSON WHO WORKED WITH THE UNITED STATES IN ANY CAPACITY FROM A SOLDIER TO A CONTRACTOR, WE AS THE U.S. GOVERNMENT COLLECTED THEIR BIOMETRIC DATA.

THERE ARE DATA BASES WITH FINGER PRINTS, PHOTOS, YOU NAME IT AND THAT BIOMETRIC DATA IS IN THE HANDS OF THE TALIBAN RIGHT NOW.

THESE ARE PEOPLE WHO CAN NOT HIDE.

THEY CAN'T JUST MAKE A NEW LIFE FOR THEMSELVES IN AFGHANISTAN.

YOU KNOW, THEY ARE MARKED FOR TALIBAN JUSTICE.

SO THESE FOLKS, OBVIOUSLY, JUST LIKE I WOULD, DO NOT WANT TO STICK AROUND AND FIND OUT WHAT TALIBAN JUSTICE IS GOING TO MEAN FOR THEM AND THEIR FAMILIES.

SO WHAT DID YOU AND YOUR FRIENDS DECIDE TO START DOING?

WELL, PRETTY EARLY ON IN THIS EVACUATION, I STARTED RECEIVING PHONE CALLS ABOUT INDIVIDUALS ORGANIZING PRIVATE FLIGHTS BECAUSE THE GOVERNMENT FLIGHTS WEREN'T COMING, WEREN'T MOVING QUICKLY ENOUGH, AND THERE WERE PRIVATE CITIZENS WHO WERE WILLING TO PUT UP THE MONEY TO FLY IN CHARTER AIRCRAFT, AND SO WE STARTED TRYING TO RAISE THE MONEY FOR THAT AND SORT OF MANIFESTING FAMILIES ON TO THESE FLIGHTS.

WE WERE ABLE TO GET A FEW OF THOSE FLIGHTS OUT.

THEN CONDITIONS AT THE AIRPORT, IN KABUL, SWIFTLY DETERIORATED SO THOSE FLIGHTS BECAME MORE COMPLICATED, MORE DIFFICULT.

YOU COULD NO LONGER BUST PEOPLE INTO THE AIRPORT, REALLY AFTER JUST A FEW DAYS.

FRANKLY WHEN IT STARTED TO DETERIORATE, SMALL GROUPS OF INDIVIDUALS WE KNEW ABOUT WHO WE WERE TRYING TO GET OUT, GUIDING THEM TOWARDS THE VARIOUS GATES AT THE AIRPORT, WHETHER IT'S ABBEY GATE WHERE THE SUICIDE BOMB WAS OR THE NORTH GATE, WHERE THE MARINES WERE, WE WERE ABLE TO GET PEOPLE THROUGH.

CALLING OUR CONTACTS IN THE U.S.

MILITARY AND IN THE INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY SAYING, HEY, WE'VE GOT A GROUP COMING TO YOU.

YOU KNOW ME.

THE COLONEL AT THE NORTH GATE, HE AND I WENT THROUGH QUANTICO, IN THE MARINES TOGETHER, IN OUR EARLY 20s.

I HAVE KNOWN HIM FOR YEARS.

IT WAS ME REACHING OUT TO HIM, I HEAR YOU'RE AT THE NORTH GATE.

YEAH, I'M THERE.

I'VE GOT PEOPLE WHO NEED YOUR HELP.

OKAY.

I'LL HAVE MY MARINES MAKE SURE THEY GET IN.

I BRING UP THAT PERSONAL CONNECTION BECAUSE IT SHOULDN'T COME TO THAT.

I MEAN, THAT'S GREAT THAT I HAVE A PERSONAL CONNECTION AND CAN HELP THESE AFGHANS, SOME OF WHOM I KNOW, MOST OF WHOM I DON'T KNOW, GET THROUGH THE NORTH GATE, BUT WHAT ABOUT THE TENS OF THOUSANDS OF OTHER AFGHANS WHO DON'T HAVE THAT TYPE OF CONNECTION OR HAVE WORKED FOR THE U.S.

WHAT I WAS WITNESSING WAS A COMPLETE BREAK DOWN OF PROCESS.

THERE WAS NO PROCESS.

THE PROCESS WAS TRY TO FIND AN AMERICAN WHO KNOWS SOMEBODY AND IF YOU'RE LUCKY, YOU'LL BE ABLE TO GET ON TO AN AIRPLANE!

AND WHEN YOU SUCCEEDED IN DRIBS AND DRABS HERE, DID WORD SPREAD?

IT DID SPREAD AND IT SPREAD TO OTHER FOLKS IN OTHER NETWORKS OF PEOPLE WHO HAD AFGHANS WHO WERE SEEKING TO GET OUT, PEOPLE I NEVER KNEW, SO I HAVE A WHOLE CONNECTION OF FOLKS THAT I HAVE BEEN PLACED IN TOUCH WITH WHO HAD A GROUP OF, YOU KNOW, 20 INDIVIDUALS HERE WHO HAVE DONE HUMAN RIGHTS WORK WHO NEED IT TO GET OUT OR 30 INDIVIDUALS HERE WHO HAD DONE WORK IN, YOU KNOW, ENTERTAINMENT THAT THEY WOULD BE PUNISHED FOR IN THE TALIBAN.

ALL FOLKS WHO NEEDED TO GET OUT, AND YOU KNOW, THE DIGITAL DUNKIRK HAS BEEN THROWN AROUND, AND IT WAS, IT WAS ONE OF THESE DUNN KIRKESQUE PROCESSES WHERE EVERYONE IS SAILING ON THEIR LITTLE BOAT TRYING TO GET OUT WHOEVER THEY CAN.

WHAT DOES THIS DO TO THE YOUNG AFGHAN, AS YOU POINT OUT, IF 20 YEARS HAVE BEEN THIS RESPITE FOR THEM, AND THEIR WORLD VIEW IS SHAPED IN A TOTALLY DIFFERENT WAY THAN UNDER TALIBAN RULE.

AND HOW DO THEY PERCEIVE THIS EXIT BY THE UNITED STATES?

I THINK IT'S A BETRAYAL.

I MEAN, I THINK IT'S A MASSIVE BETRAYAL.

AND I THINK IT'S A BETRAYAL THAT WILL COME TO HAUNT THE UNITED STATES IN THE LONG RUN.

I THINK IT WILL COME TO HAUNT THE UNITED STATES AMONG AN ENTIRE WHAT I'M CERTAIN IS A GENERATION OF AFGHANS WHO FEEL AS THOUGH WE HAVE TURNED OUR BACKS ON THEM AND LEFT THEM BEHIND.

I THINK WE'RE GOING TO BE HELD TO ACCOUNT IN THAT REGARD, AND I THINK WE'RE GOING TO BE HELD TO ACCOUNT WITH REGARD TO OUR ALLIES AROUND THE GLOBE.

THIS UNEQUIVOCALLY WEAKENS THE WORD OF THE UNITED STATES AS A GLOBAL PARTNER, AND THE SYSTEM OF, YOU KNOW, RELATIVE STABILITY THAT WE HAVE ENJOYED AS AMERICANS OVER, YOU KNOW, 20, 30, HOWEVER FAR YOU WANT TO GO BACK, YOU CAN GO BACK TO THE SECOND WORLD WAR, HAS REALLY IN MANY RESPECTS BEEN UP HELD WITH THIS IDEA THAT AMERICA'S WORLD, AMERICAN CREDIBILITY STANDS FOR SOMETHING.

THIS ALSO SEEMS LIKE A STRESS TEST FOR THE INSTITUTION OF THE U.S. MILITARY.

AND I MEAN, FROM THE THINGS THAT I READ, I SENSE A DISILLUSIONMENT FROM MY OTHER VETERAN FRIENDS WHO SAY, WELL, WHY DO WE DO THIS.

YEAH, I THINK THAT'S ACCURATE.

I THINK THERE ARE SOME VERY STRONG CURRENTS OF DISILLUSION THAT ARE COURSING THROUGH THE U.S. MILITARY RIGHT NOW.

I DON'T PROFESS TO SPEAK FOR THE ENTIRE U.S. MILITARY BUT I CAN TELL YOU WHAT MY FRIENDS ARE TALKING ABOUT WHO ARE ON ACTIVE DUTY, WHO ARE VETERANS AND WHEN I LOOK BACK AT THE LAST 20 YEARS OF WAR, AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I THINK IS SINGULAR ABOUT THESE WARS IS THE WAY THEY HAVE BEEN WAGED.

YOU KNOW, EVERY CONFLICT THE U.S. HAS FOUGHT SINCE ITS INCEPTION HAS HAD TO HAVE A CONFLICT TO SUSTAIN IT, A CONFLICT AROUND BLOOD AND TREASURE, HOW DO WE MAN THESE WARS AND PAY FOR THEM.

THE CIVIL WAR, THE CONSTRUCT WAS THE FIRST EVER DRAFT COMES OUT OF THE CIVIL WAR, THE FIRST EVER INCOME TAX, THE SECOND WORLD WAR, WAR BOND DRIVERS AND THE VIETNAM WAR WAS CHARACTERIZE DS BY AN UNPOPULAR DRAFT.

POST 9/11 WARS HAVE BEEN CHARACTERIZED BY AN ALL VOLUNTEER MILITARY, THAT'S HOW WE HAVE DONE THE BLOOD, AND DEFICIT SPENDING, THERE'S NEVER BEEN A WAR TAX, PUT IT ON THE CREDIT CARD.

THAT HAS INSULATED AMERICAN SOCIETY THROUGH THE COST OF THE WAR.

UNLESS YOU HAVE A CHILD WHO'S A VOLUNTEER OR CLOSE FAMILY MEMBER, YOU DON'T FEEL THEM.

IN 2018, THERE WAS A RASMUSSEN POLL DURING THE MIDTERM ELECTIONS AND AMERICANS WERE ASKED IS THE WAR IN AFGHANISTAN IS GOING ON, 42% OF AMERICANS COULDN'T EVEN SAY WHETHER OR NOT THE WAR IN AFGHANISTAN WAS STILL GOING ON.

THAT'S HOW DISCONNECTED WE HAD BECOME FROM THESE WARS.

OBVIOUSLY IT'S VERY MUCH IN THE HEADLINES TODAY, BUT I THINK WHAT'S SO DANGEROUS ABOUT THIS IS YOU HAVE A U.S. MILITARY NOW THAT IS INCREASINGLY BECOME ALMOST LIKE A SUBCULTURE, YOU KNOW, A SEGREGATED CAST IN AMERICAN SOCIETY.

IF WE LOOK BACK THROUGH HISTORY, YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU HAVE A DYNAMIC OR A DEMOCRACY, LARGE STANDING MILITARY, AND EXTREMELY DYSFUNCTIONAL POLITICS AT HOME, DEMOCRACIES DON'T LAST LONG IN THAT ENVIRONMENT, AND I AM CONCERNED ABOUT, AS YOU SAID, YOU KNOW, THESE CURRENTS OF DISILLUSIONMENT OR BETRAYAL THAT SOME OF THE MILITARY FEEL, AND EVEN THOSE WHO WANT THE WAR IN AFGHANISTAN TO END, HEY, WE HAVE PEOPLE DYING THERE WHO WERE BORN THE YEAR THE WAR STARTED AND AT THE SAME TIME, THE HAPHAZARD MANNER THIS WAS EXECUTED IS VERY CONCERNING, AND THEY WANT ACCOUNTABILITY FOR THAT.

I THINK ANYTIME YOU SEE THE LEVEL OF DISSATISFACTION WITH OUR MILITARY THAT IS ISOLATED FROM THE SOCIETY IT SERVES, IT DOESN'T SEEM TO END WELL, AND I THINK THAT IS AN ISSUE THAT WE AS A COUNTRY SHOULD BE PAYING ATTENTION TO BUT HAVE PAID VERY LITTLE ATTENTION TO OVER THE LAST 20 YEARS.

WHAT FRUSTRATES YOU AS A VETERAN?

THIS IS ONE CAMPAIGN.

THIS IS OBVIOUSLY IN OUR LIFETIMES, IT'S THE LONGEST ONE THAT WE ALL CAN REMEMBER, SO YOU'VE GONE THROUGH YOUR SERVICE.

THERE ARE THOSE IDEALS AND BELIEFS THAT DREW YOU IN, AND WHEN YOU SEE WHAT COULD BE AT LEAST A PHASE AND AN OUTCOME RIGHT NOW, WHAT ARE YOU AND YOUR FRIENDS SAYING TO EACH OTHER?

I WOULD SAY A STRAIN, PARTICULARLY IN RECENTLY WEEKS THAT I HAVE HEARD AND I AM SYMPATHETIC AND VERY MUCH AGREE WITH IS A CALL FOR ACCOUNTABILITY.

I DON'T THINK THERE IS ANY WAY TO LOOK AT WHAT JUST OCCURRED IN AFGHANISTAN OVER THE LAST THREE WEEKS OF OUR WITHDRAWAL AND TO CHARACTERIZE IT AS ANYTHING BUT UTTER DEBACLE.

AND HAVING SERVED IN THE MILITARY, YOU KNOW, IF I WAS A CAPTAIN AND I WAS RUNNING A LIVE FIRE RANGE AND A MARINE GOT SHOT ON A LIVE FIRING TRAINING EXERCISE, I WOULD BE FIRED.

I WOULD LOSE MY JOB, IT WOULD PROBABLY BE A CAREER END FOR ME.

WE WATCHED THE SENIOR RANKS OF THE U.S. MILITARY PRESIDE OVER AN ABSOLUTE DEBACLE, LLOYD AUSTIN, MILLE, SECRETARY OF STATE, THIS HAS BEEN A BOTCHED WITHDRAWAL BASED OFF OF FAILED POLICIES.

IS ACCOUNTABILITY GOING TO COME?

WILL PEOPLE LOSE THEIR JOBS OVER THIS BECAUSE THEY SHOULD.

AND IF THEY DON'T, THERE WILL BE NO CLEARER EVIDENCE THAT AT THE HIGHEST LEVELS OF THE U.S.

GOVERNMENT THERE EXISTS A CULTURE OF NO ACCOUNTABILITY AND THAT JUST DOESN'T CONCERN ME AS A VETERAN, IT ALSO CONCERNS ME AS A CITIZEN, AND I THINK IT SHOULD CONCERN ALL OF US AS CITIZENS.

WE NEED TO BRING BACK A CULTURE OF ACCOUNTABILITY HERE.

WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT ACCOUNTABILITY, RIGHT NOW IT'S HARD TO SEPARATE THAT FROM THE POLITICAL LENS, RIGHT, SO LET'S SAY SOMEONE SHOULD BE FIRED, BUT DOES THAT ACT, IS THAT ACT PREVENTED FROM SAYING, WELL, WE DON'T WANT THE OTHER TEAM TO SCORE POINTS.

IT'S GOING TO LOOK LIKE WEAKNESS.

THIS IS GOING TO HEAD INTO THE MIDTERMS.

THIS IS GOING TO CHANGE OUR CALCULUS, ET CETERA, ET CETERA, VERSUS SAYING YOU'RE RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS, THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE, YOU NO LONGER HAVE A JOB HERE?

I TOTALLY AGREE.

I THINK THAT'S WHY WE SHOULD BE ALL CONCERNED.

PARTISANSHIP MAKES US DUMB AS AMERICANS.

IT ERODES THE FOUNDATIONS OF OUR SOCIETY.

IT MAKES US DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS FIRST AND AMERICANS SECOND.

AND IF WE LIVE IN THAT TYPE OF SOCIETY, THE FUTURE OF THAT SOCIETY IS DARK, SO IF WE LIVE IN A SOCIETY WHERE THERE IS NO ACCOUNTABILITY BECAUSE ACCOUNTABILITY MEANS THAT YOU MIGHT GIVE THE OTHER TEAM, THE OTHER REPUBLICAN OR DEMOCRATIC TEAM A WIN AND SO NO ONE CAN EVER BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE, THEN WE ARE SICK AND IN A TERRIBLE PLACE AS A COUNTRY.

THE PRESIDENT HAS REPEATEDLY SAID OVER THE PAST FEW DAYS, LOOK, THERE IS NO GOOD WAY, ESSENTIALLY, TO EXIT THIS.

SHOULD WE HAVE STAYED.

SHOULD WE HAVE LEFT A -- SOME SORT OF A PRESENCE THERE?

BECAUSE PRESIDENT BIDEN SAYS HE DOESN'T WANT TO GO INTO THE NEXT DECADE OF COMMITTING U.S.

SOLDIERS TO WHAT SEEMS LIKE QUICK SAND.

WE DON'T SEEM TO HAVE A RESOLUTION IN THIS PROCESS OF NATION BUILDING THAT WE ORIGINALLY SAID WE DIDN'T WANT TO DO, BUT WE BEGAN DOING.

YOU KNOW, IT'S VERY INTERESTING, AS I HAVE BEEN THINKING OVER THE LAST FEW DAYS, I WENT BACK AND REWATCHED SECRETARY OF STATE'S TONY BLINKEN'S VIDEO WHEN HE ACCEPTED PRESIDENT BIDEN'S NOMINATION AS SECRETARY OF STATE, AND IN THAT HE TOLD A STORY OF, I THINK IT WAS HIS STEP GREAT GRANDFATHER WHO WAS JEWISH IN THE SECOND WORLD WAR AND AT THE CULMINATION OF THE WAR HE WAS HIDING FROM THE GERMANS, HE HEARD A TANK, HE SAW THAT THE TANK HAD A FIVE POINTED WHITE STAR, AND BLINKEN TELLS THIS MOVING STORY OF HIS GRANDFATHER RUNNING UP TO THE TANK, DROPPING ON TO HIS KNEES AND SAYING THE ONLY THREE WORDS OF ENGLISH HE KNEW WHICH WERE GOD BLESS AMERICA AND THIS AMERICAN TANKER JUMPING DOWN AND WHISKING HIS GRANDFATHER AWAY TO FREEDOM, AND ALLOWING HIM TO LIVE THE LIFE THAT HE HAS HAD IN HIS FAMILY TO ASCEND TO THE SECRETARY OF STATE, AND HE ENDED THAT STORY BY SAYING BECAUSE THAT'S WHO WE ARE.

AND THAT STORY AND THAT SENSE OF WHO WE ARE IS SO DIVORCED FROM THE POLICIES THAT PRESIDENT BIDEN SEEMS TO BE PURSUING RIGHT NOW.

SPECIFIC TO YOUR QUESTION, SHOULD WE HAVE STAYED IN AFGHANISTAN, I THINK IT BEGS A LARGER QUESTION IS WHO ARE WE AS THE UNITED STATES, YOU KNOW, ARE WE A COUNTRY OF ISOLATIONISTS, DO WE RECEIVE WITHIN OUR BORDERS WHEN WE COME TO PEOPLE AND TELL THEM THAT, YOU KNOW, WE ARE YOUR ALLIES IN PURSUING A FREE AND DEMOCRATIC NATION, WE'LL STAND BY YOU, DOES THAT ACTUALLY MEAN SOMETHING?

SO, I THINK, YOU KNOW, WHEN WE LOOK AT AFGHANISTAN, AFGHANISTAN IN 2009, '10, '11 IS VERY DIFFERENT THAN 2017 AND 2008, KIND OF THE YEARS WHEN OUR WITHDRAWAL AND DRAW DOWN BEGAN.

WHEN I WAS THERE, THERE WERE MORE THAN 150,000 U.S. TROOPS IN AFGHANISTAN, AND WE WERE FULLY ENGAGED IN COMBAT OPERATIONS.

2018, WE HAD A LITTLE OVER 10,000 TROOPS.

THEY WERE ACTIVELY FIGHTING A WAR AGAINST THE TALIBAN BUT IT WAS A WAR THAT THEY WERE BY AND LARGE FIGHTING AND WE WERE DOING A GOOD JOB HELPING THEM FIGHT.

SO I BELIEVE THERE ARE MANY MODELS THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN MORE BENEFICIAL TO THE UNITED STATES LONG-TERM INTERESTS THAN THE MODEL WE JUST EXECUTED WHICH WAS A BOTCHED WITHDRAWAL, AND HERE'S HOPING AFGHANISTAN TURNS OUT FOR THE BEST.

SO I THINK AFGHANISTAN, I THINK THE COURSE WE HAVE PURSUED IS CYNICAL.

IF YOU LOOK AT, YOU KNOW, WHO WE ARE, I DON'T BELIEVE IT IS ALIGNED WITH AT LEAST WHAT IN MY ADULT LIFETIME HAS BEEN OUR AMERICAN VALUES, AND I THINK IN THE LONG-TERM, IT'S GOING TO BE MORE COSTLY FOR US THAN HAVING KEPT A PRESENCE THERE AND TO TRY TO KEEP WORKING WITH THE AFGHAN GOVERNOR.

ELLIOT ACKERMAN, AUTHOR, AND MARINE VETERAN.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

THANKS VERY HAVING ME.

> AND OF COURSE IT IS A REALLY IMPORTANT QUESTION, WHO ARE WE AND WHAT DO WE STAND FOR, AND FINALLY, OF COURSE, WHO ARE THE TALIBAN.

EVER SINCE THEY TOOK CHARGE AGAIN, WE HAVE BEEN ASKING THAT QUESTION, WHAT WILL IT DO THIS TIME AROUND?

WELL, HERE'S A LITTLE FLASHBACK FOR YOU.

CLIPS OF MY CONVERSATIONS WITH AFGHANS AND WHAT THE VERY FIRST WESTERN INTERVIEWS WITH A TALIBAN OFFICIAL BACK WHEN THEY FIRST CAPTURED KABUL IN 1996.

A LOT OF PEOPLE ON THE OUTSIDE ARE WATCHING THE ACTIONS TAKEN BY THE TALIBAN.

A LOT OF PEOPLE WANT TO KNOW WHAT YOU'RE GOING TO DO ABOUT THE WOMEN ISSUE, WHAT ABOUT WOMEN'S EDUCATION, GIRLS' EDUCATION, WOMEN WORKING, WIDOWS WHO HAVE NO OTHER WAY TO SUPPORT THEMSELVES?

I KNOW THAT ESPECIALLY IN NEWS MEDIA, IT'S THE PROPAGANDA THAT WE ARE AGAINST WOMEN'S EDUCATION, WHICH IS NOT RIGHT, WHICH IS NOT CORRECT.

BUT THE GIRLS CAN'T GO TO SCHOOL.

WE HAVE BEEN TO SCHOOLS HERE THAT ARE ALL CLOSED.

A HEADMASTER SITS IN SPLENDID ISOLATION, KEEPING THE BOOKS JUST IN CASE THE TALIBAN RELENTS AND LETS HAD HIS PUPILS BACK AGAIN.

NOT ONLY SCHOOL BUT ALL WOMEN'S PROGRAMS HAVE BEEN STOPPED.

AID ORGANIZATIONS, FOR INSTANCE, CAN NO LONGER TEACH WOMEN OR YOUNG GIRLS ABOUT HEALTH CARE, SANITATION OR MINE AWARENESS.

MINES STILL ACCOUNT FOR MOST CIVILIAN DEATHS.

EVEN THE YOUNGEST UNDERSTAND SOMETHING IS NOT RIGHT.

10-YEAR-OLD AZIDA COMPLAINS ABOUT HAVING TO STAY HOME ALL DAY.

WE JUST DO HOUSEWORK, CLEANING, BAKING BREAD AND SWEEPING THE FLOORS, SHE SAYS.

AT THE CHARITY, A GROUP OF PROFESSIONAL WOMEN MEETS AGAIN FOR THE FIRST TIME SINCE THE TALIBAN TOLD THEM TO QUIT THEIR JOBS HERE SIX WEEKS AGO.

THEY HAVE COME OUT BECAUSE THEY WANT THE WORLD TO KNOW THEIR PLIGHT.

I LOVE MY WORK.

IT'S MY RIGHT TO WORK.

AND I NEED TO WORK BECAUSE I GOT EDUCATION IN THIS COUNTRY, AND THE GOVERNMENT SPENT MONEY ON ME, AND EVEN MY FAMILY, AND I WANT TO EXPRESS MYSELF TO MY SOCIETY.

I WANT TO SERVE MY PEOPLE, MY COUNTRY.

WE HAVE JUST TOLD THEM THAT FOR THE TIME BEING, THEY SHOULD NOT COME TO OFFICE AND SCHOOL SO THAT WE CAN COME OUT WITH SOME SORT OF SOLUTION, OR PROVIDE THEM WITH PLACES THAT THEY CAN BE EDUCATED OR THEY CAN WORK IN OFFICES.

WHAT DO YOU SAY ABOUT WOMEN WHO ARE WORKING AND WHO HAVE TO WORK TO SUPPORT THEMSELVES?

THOSE WOMEN, WE HAVE ALREADY DECIDED SOME OF THESE WOMEN WHO ARE WORKING IN GOVERNMENT OFFICES, WE HAVE JUST TOLD THEM THAT THE NEXT SECOND ORDER THEY SHOULD BE SITTING AT HOME.

SOUND FAMILIAR?

IT WAS 25 YEARS AGO, AND IT'S COME FULL CIRCLE.

THAT WAS MOHAMMED STANIZAI, THE TALIBAN DEPUTY FOREIGN MINISTER AND NOW HEADS THEIR POLITICAL OFFICE IN DOHA WHERE HE AND HIS COHORTS ARE SAYING THE SAME THINGS AND MAKING THE SAME PROMISES.

THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

REMEMBER, YOU CAN ALWAYS FOLLOW ME AND THE SHOW ON TWITTER.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING 'AMANPOUR AND COMPANY' ON PBS, AND JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW.