09.11.2021

September 10, 2021

Fmr. Afghan Ambassador to the United States Roya Rahmani, foreign policy expert Lawrence Wilkerson, and retired FDNY Assistant Chief Joe Pfeifer each reflect on the 20th anniversary of 9/11.

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> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO 'AMANPOUR & CO.'

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

THE 20th ANNIVERSARY OF 9/11, A SOBERING LOOK AT HOW THE WORLD HAS CHANGED FOR BETTER AND FOR WORSE SINCE THAT FATEFUL DAY.

> I SPEAK TO AFGHANISTAN'S FIRST FEMALE AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED STATES AND TO LAWRENCE WILKERSON, AIDE TO THE FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE COLIN POWELL ON WHY HE REGRETS HIS ROLE IN THE WAR ON TERROR.

AND HOW HOPE CURDLED INTO DEFEAT.

I REFLECT ON HOW AMERICA'S WAR SQUANDERED GLOBAL GOOD WILL AND RESTORED THE TALIBAN TO POWER.

PLUS --

I RAN OVER THE P.A.s, AND I GRABBED THE MIC, AND I ASKED PEOPLE -- I SAID, IF YOU COULD HOLD ON, JUST HOLD ON A LITTLE LONGER BECAUSE WE'RE COMING FOR YOU.

WE'RE COMING TO GET YOU.

HE WAS THE FIRST FIRE CHIEF TO ARRIVE AT GROUND ZERO.

NOW HE TALKS TO JOE PFEIFFER ABOUT SENDING HIS FIREFIGHTER BROTHER INTO THE NORTH TOWER AND HONORING ORDINARY HEROES.

♪♪♪

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THANK YOU.

> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

20 YEARS AFTER THE 9/11 ATTACKS AND THE START OF THE AFGHAN WAR, HOW'S THIS FOR PROGRESS?

AFGHANISTAN'S NEWEST TALIBAN RULERS SAY WOMEN SHOULD SKIP POLITICS AND STICK TO CHILDBIRTH.

THIS IS THE SO-CALLED TALIBAN 2.0.

SUCCESSES OF THE HARD-LINERS WHO GAVE SHELTER TO OSAMA BIN LADEN AND WHO WERE RUN OUT OF POWER BY COALITION FORCES AFTER 9/11.

BUT TWO DECADES LATER, IN CHARGE AGAIN, THEY'RE BREAKING PROMISES AND TURNING BACK THE CLOCK ON REFORMS.

AFGHANISTAN IS NOW ONE OF THE VERY FEW COUNTRIES WITH NO WOMEN AT ALL IN TOP GOVERNMENT POSITIONS.

PLUS JOURNALISTS HAVE BEEN BEATEN.

UNAUTHORIZED PROTESTS ARE BANNED, AND WOMEN'S MARCHES VIOLENTLY BROKEN UP.

SO HOW DID IT TURN OUT THIS WAY, AND WHAT REALLY HAS BEEN ACCOMPLISHED BY THE AMERICAN INTERVENTION?

ROYA RA MANI WAS AFGHANISTAN'S FIRST FEMALE AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED STATES.

SHE LEFT HER POST IN JULY, AND SHE'S JOINING ME NOW FROM WASHINGTON.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, AMBASSADOR.

DO YOU REMEMBER 9/11, WHERE YOU WERE AND WHAT YOU THOUGHT THAT DAY?

YES, VIVIDLY SO.

I WAS A STUDENT AT UNIVERSITY IN MONTREAL, AND WHEN IT HAPPENED, WE KNEW SOMETHING BIG IS GOING TO CHANGE.

AND THE CHANGE WAS GOOD BECAUSE WHATEVER WAS HAPPENING FOR SO LONG WAS NOT TOLERABLE.

IT WAS A MOMENT OF HOPE.

HOW DO YOU DESCRIBE -- WELL, HOW DID YOU FEEL WHEN YOU KNEW AMERICA WAS COMING TO DEFEAT BIN LADEN AND THE TALIBAN AND NOW THAT AMERICA HAS LEFT AND WE'VE JUST, YOU KNOW, BEEN REPORTING AND YOU'VE SEEN IT WITH YOUR OWN EYES AFTER THE LAST SEVERAL WEEKS, WHAT THE TALIBAN HAS BEEN DOING TO ROLL BACK ANY OF THE GAINS THAT WERE MADE?

WELL, IT IS A TRAGEDY BECAUSE IF WE ARE JUST GOING TO SQUANDER ALL THE GAINS THAT WE HAVE HAD OVER THE PAST 20 YEARS AND THEN WAIT FOR ANOTHER TRAGEDY TO BE ENGAGED, THIS IS A BIG HISTORIC MISTAKE.

WHAT I'M SEEING RIGHT NOW AS AN IMMEDIATE EFFECT IS ONE OF THE MOST TANGIBLE ACHIEVEMENTS OF THE PAST 20 YEARS, WHICH IS THE WOMEN EMPOWERMENT IN AFGHANISTAN, IS AT THE COMPLETELY VERGE OF LOSS.

IT'S A ROLLBACK AS YOU MENTIONED.

THE TALIBAN ARE GOING BACK TO THE SAME WAYS THAT THEY REPRESENTED THEMSELVES BACK IN 1996.

SO LET'S JUST PLAY A LITTLE BIT OF WHAT THE INTERVIEW WAS WITH THE TALIBAN SPOKESMAN THAT SET UP THIS IDEA OF, YOU KNOW, WOMEN SHOULD JUST STAY OUT OF POLITICS.

OF COURSE, WE KNOW THAT THERE ARE NO WOMEN IN THEIR SO-CALLED INCLUSIVE GOVERNMENT.

AND STICK TO CHILDBIRTH.

THIS IS WHAT THE SPOKESMAN.

Translator: THE WOMEN PROTESTING IN THE STREETS DO NOT REPRESENT ALL THE WOMEN OF AFGHANISTAN.

THE WOMEN OF AFGHANISTAN ARE THOSE WOMEN WHO GIVE BIRTH TO MARTYRDOM IN NATION OF AFGHANISTAN.

I GUESS I JUST WANT TO ASK YOU TO REACT TO THAT BECAUSE IT SOUNDS EXACTLY LIKE WHAT WE HEARD BACK IN, YOU KNOW, THE LATE '90s WHEN THEY FIRST TOOK OVER.

AND IT'S EXACTLY THE REVERSE OF WHAT THE OTHERS SAID WHEN THEY CAME IN AND GAVE THAT FIRST PRESS CONFERENCE IN KABUL, THAT WOMEN WOULD IN FACT BE WELCOME IN CERTAIN JOBS AND WITHIN, AS THEY SAID ALL THE TIME, YOU KNOW, THE PARAMETERS OF SHARIA.

DID YOU EXPECT IT TO GET THIS BAD THIS QUICKLY?

LOOKING AT HOW THINGS HAVE TURNED SO FAST AND SO RAPIDLY IN THE PAST FEW WEEKS, YES, THIS IS ALSO EXPECTED.

THIS IS ALSO AN ALARM.

THIS IS AN INDICATION FOR THE ENTIRE WORLD THAT WHILE THERE ARE STILL FEW CAMERAS LEFT, THERE ARE STILL PEOPLE CONNECTED.

THIS IS WHAT THEY'RE TURNING BACK.

IMAGINE WHAT WOULD HAPPEN ONCE YOU'RE ALL TURNING OFF YOUR CAMERAS AND YOU'RE MOVING ON TO THE NEW SUBJECT.

AND THEY ARE TALKING RIGHT NOW ABOUT WOMEN'S ISSUES AND TREATING WOMEN BADLY.

MAYBE THEIR WORLD MAY NOT IMMEDIATELY REACT ON THAT, BUT WHAT HAPPENS IN TERMS OF THEIR TIES WITH AL QAEDA, THE HARBORING OF TERRORISM?

MUCH MORE TO COME WITH THE RULE OF TALIBAN THE SAME WAY THAT IN 1996.

AMBASSADOR, CAN I ASK YOU, SOME REPORTERS, WESTERN REPORTERS, HAVE SAID THAT, YOU KNOW, WHEN THEY VISITED PLACES OUTSIDE THE URBAN CITIES, PERHAPS PEOPLE -- WOMEN IN WHAT WAS MORE TALIBAN TERRITORY, THE PESHTO AREAS OF AFGHANISTAN, THAT THOSE WOMEN COMPLAINED ABOUT BEING TREATED UNEQUALLY.

THEY DIDN'T GET THE SAME KIND OF PROGRESS THAT PEOPLE LIKE YOU DID.

THEY RESENTED CORRUPTION THEY COULD SEE UNFOLDING ON THE STREETS OF KABUL OR RATHER IN THE HALLS OF POWER.

AND INDEED THEY FELT THAT THEY SUFFERED THE CONSEQUENCES OF THE SHARP END OF AMERICA'S WAR, THAT THERE WAS SO MUCH KILLING OF RELATIVES -- YOU KNOW BECAUSE YOU WITNESSED IT, YOU HEARD ABOUT IT YOURSELF.

SO MANY TIMES WEDDINGS AND CIVILIANS WERE BOMBED, AND THEN THE U.S. AND ALLIES WOULD APOLOGIZE WHEN IT TURNED OUT THAT IT WASN'T A TERRORIST GROUP AS THEY SAID.

HOW MUCH IMPACT DID THAT HAVE ON WOMEN AND THOSE OTHERS IN THE COUNTRYSIDE AT THAT TIME THAT WERE THE TARGETS?

WELL, THE WAY YOU DESCRIBED IT ALREADY HAS IT.

THE FIRST THING YOU SAID, THEY COMPLAINED THAT THEY DID HAVE MUCH PROGRESS AND OPPORTUNITIES, RESOURCES THAT MANY OTHERS DID, INCLUDING MYSELF IN THE CITIES.

SO THAT IS A DIFFICULT REALITY.

THIS IS ALSO AN INDICATION THAT THEY WANTED THAT PROGRESS, THAT THEY WANTED THE SAME OPPORTUNITIES.

YES, MANY THINGS WENT WRONG, AND IT DID NOT GO THE WAY IT SHOULD HAVE.

CORRUPTION WAS A BIG ISSUE.

WE ALL KNOW ABOUT THAT.

BUT WHEN IT COMES TO THE ISSUE OF KILLING AND CONFLICTS, OF COURSE WOMEN DID SUFFER FIRSTHAND IN MULTIPLE WAYS FROM THE CONTINUATION OF THE CONFLICT.

BUT IT WAS GOING BOTH SIDES.

AS THE AFGHAN FORCES WERE BOMBING AND IT WOULD GO -- HIT THE WRONG TARGET OR THE AMERICANS OR INTERNATIONAL ALLIES DID, AND OF COURSE IT RESULTED IN TERRIBLE MISERIES FOR AFGHAN PEOPLE.

THE TALIBAN DID THE SAME.

THEY USED WOMEN AND CHILDREN, THEIR HOUSES, THEIR VILLAGES AS A SHIELD.

THEY WERE INFILTRATED, AND PEOPLE GOT KILLED AND SUFFERED FROM THE CONFLICT REGARDLESS OF WHO WAS PERPETRATING WHAT.

AND ALSO I WANT TO POINT OUT THAT THE VERY RECENT YEARS, RECENT MONTHS BEFORE TALIBAN TAKE OVER, THEY WERE THE ONES THAT WERE CAUSING THE MAJORITY OF THE CIVILIAN CASUALTIES.

THE HIGHEST NUMBER OF CIVILIAN CASUALTIES.

THEY JUST DIDN'T HAVE A UNIFORM, AND THEY WOULDN'T COME FORWARD AND APOLOGIZE FOR DOING WHAT THEY WERE DOING.

YOU KNOW, WE'VE TALKED A LITTLE BIT ABOUT CORRUPTION.

IT'S BEEN PUBLISHED THAT YOU, YOURSELF, WERE ACCUSED OF IT BY CERTAIN QUARTERS IN KABUL.

YOU'VE DISMISSED IT.

IT TURNS OUT TO BE ABOUT AN ACTUAL WAR AT THE EMBASSY WHERE YOU WERE AMBASSADOR THAT WAS CREATING -- AND IT WAS DAMAGED, AND NEIGHBORS IN WASHINGTON WERE DEMANDING THAT YOU FIX IT.

AND IN AFGHANISTAN, IT BECAME A VIRAL STORY BECAUSE THEY SAID YOU SPENT TOO MUCH ON IT.

YOU'VE REFUTED THOSE ALLEGATIONS.

BUT WHAT DO YOU SAY ABOUT HOW SENSITIVE ORDINARY AFGHANS WERE ABOUT THE AMOUNT OF FOREIGN MONEY THAT WAS POURING IN AND ABOUT HOW SO MANY ON THE GOVERNMENT SIDE WERE SHAKING DOWN ORDINARY CIVILIANS FOR WHATEVER MONEY AND HOW SUCH RAMPANT CORRUPTION WAS HAPPENING WITHIN THE GOVERNMENT ITSELF THAT REALLY CAN AND DID SHAKE EVERYBODY'S FAITH IN THE FUTURE?

WELL, THERE ARE MULTIPLE QUESTIONS IN YOUR QUESTION AND ASPECTS THAT NEED TO BE DESCRIBED.

FIRST OF ALL, LET ME JUST TELL YOU THAT YOU REFERRED TO THE ALLEGATION AGAINST MYSELF, AND I WOULD POINT OUT THAT WHO BROUGHT THOSE ALLEGATION?

IT WAS A LOCAL MEDIA GROUP IN AFGHANISTAN WHO WERE TOLD TO DO SO.

IT WAS A POLITICALLY MOTIVATED CAMPAIGN.

AND THEN IT HAS BEEN INVESTIGATED BY ANOTHER GROUP, MAINLY 'WASHINGTON POST' LOOKED INTO THE CASE AND WROTE WHAT THEY FOUND OUT.

BUT LOOKING AT THIS ISSUE AND THE MEANNESS OF CORRUPTION AND HOW IT ATE UP AFGHANISTAN'S POTENTIAL AND REALLY CONTRIBUTED TO WHAT WE ARE SEEING TODAY IS BECAUSE THERE WAS -- JUSTICE WAS NOT SERVED FROM THE OUTSET.

THE RULES AND LAWS WERE ONLY APPLICABLE TO THOSE WHO WERE NOT POWERFUL ENOUGH, WHO DID NOT VERDICT A BIG SHARE IN POLITICS OR WOULD NOT THREATEN THE STABILITY OR THE GOVERNMENT OR THEIR ELEMENTS.

IF THEY WENT AFTER THEM, THEY WOULD THREATEN THEM.

SO RULES AND LAWS NEVER APPLY TO THEM, AND PEOPLE FELT THAT.

THIS WAS THE REASON THAT THE TRUST INCREASINGLY DIMINISHED OVER THE GOVERNMENT, OVER THE SYSTEM AND THE POTENTIAL.

AND THIS HAD, OF COURSE, AN INCREASING COURSE, ESPECIALLY AS MORE AND MORE OF PEOPLE IN THE GOVERNMENT, THOSE OFFICIALS WHO WERE INVOLVED IN CORRUPTION SAW THAT THIS IS THE END OF AN ERA.

THEY TRIED TO COLLECT AS MUCH AS THEY COULD AND JUST ROLL IT IN THEIR OWN BANKS AS A RESULT.

ONE OF THE THINGS NOW THAT SHOULD HAVE HAPPENED IS THAT AS THE INTERNATIONAL -- FOR THE SAKE OF AFGHANISTAN, FOR THE SAKE OF FUTURE, AND FOR THE SAKE OF PREVENTING THESE THINGS FROM CONTINUALLY HAPPENING OVER AND OVER, THAT ALL THE OFFICIALS, ALL THE AFGHAN OFFICIALS' ACCOUNTS SHOULD HAVE BEEN AUDITED.

EVERYBODY SHOULD HAVE BEEN AUDITED.

THEIR RELATIVES SHOULD HAVE BEEN AUDITED TO SEE WHERE THE MONEY WENT.

AND IT IS THE RIGHT OF PEOPLE.

IT IS THEIR MONEY.

AS YOU POINTED OUT, THEY HAVE BEEN VERY FRUSTRATED.

FOR EXAMPLE, IN MY CASE, IT BECAME SUCH A BIG DEAL BECAUSE IT WAS PORTRAYED THAT IT WAS A LITTLE SMALL WALL LIKE THE WAY EVERYBODY PERCEIVES A WALL, A FEW BRICKS OVER ONE ANOTHER, AND IT WOULD COST THE AMOUNT THAT IT COST, WHICH OF COURSE WAS NOT THE CASE.

AND ANYWAYS, I'M NOT GOING TO GET INTO DETAILS OVER THAT.

FINALLY, THEN, AS YOU LOOK FORWARD, WHY DO YOU THINK THE GOVERNMENT AND THE FORCES COLLAPSED SO QUICKLY -- OR, RATHER, WHY DO YOU THINK THE TALIBAN WAS ABLE TO TAKE OVER SO QUICKLY AND JUST SURPRISE SO MANY PEOPLE?

WELL, THIS WAS BOILING UP FOR SEVERAL MONTHS, AS EARLY AS THE BEGINNING OF THE YEAR AS WE SAW TALIBAN GAINING MORE AND MORE TERRITORY.

THIS WAS SOMETHING THAT COULD BE PREDICTED HAPPENING.

THAT WAS PREDICTED COMING.

IT WAS A STORY THAT WE HAD SEEN BEFORE THAT HOW QUICKLY THEN KABUL FALLS ONCE MAJOR PROVINCES ARE CAPTURED BY THE OPPOSITION GROUP.

IT HAS HAPPENED OVER AND OVER.

AND WHAT CONTRIBUTED TO THAT?

THERE WAS A WHOLE ARRAY OF FACTORS, INCLUDING THE TRUST THAT WAS DETERIORATED AND LACK OF LEADERSHIP OR GOOD LEADERSHIP IN THE AFGHAN GOVERNMENT.

YEAH.

WE'VE RUN OUT OF TIME.

I'M SORRY.

BUT WE'LL ALL BE WATCHING HOW, YOU KNOW, IT PROCEEDS IN AFGHANISTAN NOW THAT THIS REVERSE HAS TAKEN PLACE.

> AND IN A MOMENT, I'LL SPEAK TO SOMEONE WHO WAS RIGHT THERE IN THE ROOM WITH TOP U.S.

OFFICIALS AS THEY PLANNED THE WAR ON TERROR.

THAT'S COLONEL LAWRENCE WILKERSON, WHO WAS CHIEF OF STAFF TO THEN-SECRETARY OF STATE COLIN POWELL.

> BUT FIRST SOME REPORTING AND REFLECTIONS ON HOW, IN FACT, WE GOT TO THIS PLACE.

THIS JUST IN.

YOU ARE LOOKING AT OBVIOUSLY A VERY DISTURBING LIVE SHOT THERE.

A PLANE HAS CRASHED INTO ONE OF THE TOWERS OF THE WORLD TRADE CENTER.

INCREDIBLY, I DID NOT SEE THE TWIN TOWERS FALL IN REAL-TIME OR ON LIVE TELEVISION.

I DIDN'T SEE THE ATTACK OF 9/11 BECAUSE I WAS ON ASSIGNMENT IN THE FAR-FLUNG WEST AFRICAN NATION AT WAR OF SIERRA LEONE.

CNN IMMEDIATELY STARTED TO TRY TO EXTRACT ME FROM THERE, SEND ME BACK TO BASE IN LONDON AND THEN DEPLOY ME.

IN THE MEANTIME, WE ALSO KNOW BECAUSE OF THE FOOTAGE THAT THE U.S. FORCES FOUND IN AFGHANISTAN THAT OSAMA BIN LADEN, WHOSE DIABOLICAL PLAN THIS WAS, HAD NOT RECKONED WITH THE TOWERS COLLAPSING.

THE CHILLING VIDEO OF HIM TALKING TO HIS AL QAEDA HONCHOS WHERE HE USES HAND GESTURES TO MARK THE TOP TO BOTTOM OF THE WORLD TRADE CENTER, NOT EXPECTING ANYTHING BELOW THE LEVEL OF THE PLANES' IMPACT TO COLLAPSE IS JUST SO STUNNING TO WATCH 20 YEARS LATER.

AND THE IDEA, BECAUSE WE COULDN'T GET INTO AFGHANISTAN AT THE TIME, WAS TO TRY TO FIGURE OUT WHAT THE U.S. AND THE ALLIES WOULD DO.

SO I GOT AN EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW WITH THEN-PRIME MINISTER TONY BLAIR AFTER THE UNITED STATES HAD SAID, PRESIDENT BUSH, THAT WAR HAS BEEN DECLARED ON US, NATO DECLARED ARTICLE 5 FOR THE FIRST TIME IN ITS HISTORY.

I.E., ON BEHALF OF THE UNITED STATES, AN ATTACK ON ONE IS AN ATTACK ON ALL, WHICH MEANT THEY WOULD RESPOND TO THIS ACT OF WAR DECLARED ON THE UNITED STATES.

I DO THINK THAT THE WHOLE OF THE CIVILIZED WORLD WILL STAND TOGETHER, YES.

I THINK THE WHOLE OF EUROPE WILL STAND WITH AMERICA ON THIS BECAUSE PEOPLE KNOW THAT WHAT HAPPENED WAS NOT JUST AIMED AT AMERICA.

IT WAS AIMED AT ALL OF US.

JUST ABOUT EVERYBODY HOPED IT WOULDN'T COME TO WAR.

THEY HOPED THEY COULD PERSUADE THE TALIBAN TO GIVE UP OSAMA BIN LADEN AND AVOID WAR.

OF COURSE THAT NEVER HAPPENED.

THE TALIBAN DIDN'T.

AND OF COURSE IT GOT ME REMEMBERING WHO THE TALIBAN WERE.

I'D HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO WATCH THEIR RISE THROUGH AFGHANISTAN.

IN APRIL OF 1996, I WAS IN HERAT AS THEY TOOK OVER THAT WESTERN AFGHAN CITY.

TODAY, HERAT IS RULED BY THE ISLAMIST FUNDAMENTALIST GROUP KNOWN AS THE TALIBAN.

IT REFUSES TO NEGOTIATE WITH THE KABUL GOVERNMENT, VOWING ONLY TOTAL MILITARY VICTORY.

CLOING DOWN GIRLS' SCHOOLS HAS BEEN THE TALIBAN'S BIGGEST BLOW.

EDUCATION IS JUST FOR BOYS, THEY SAY.

BUT NOW BOYS DON'T GET TAUGHT EITHER BECAUSE MOST OF THE TEACHERS ARE WOMEN.

SO CLASSROOMS FULL OF IDLE CHILDREN WAIT TO TAKE TURNS WITH ONE OF THE FEW MALE TEACHERS.

WE'RE NOT LEARNING ANYTHING, SAYS 15-YEAR-OLD ORBAN, SO WE'LL END UP STUPID AND IGNORANT.

FAST FORWARD NOW TO NOVEMBER 2001.

AN AIR CAMPAIGN BY THE UNITED STATES AND ALLIES HAD OUSTED NOW OSAMA BIN LADEN AND THE TALIBAN.

THEY WERE ON THE RUN.

AND HERE WAS THE MAN WHO THE WEST WAS PINNING HOPES OF LEADING AFGHANISTAN IN A NEW TALIBAN-FREE, TERRORIST-FREE, LAW-ABIDING, PEACEFUL AFGHANISTAN.

HE WAS HAMID KARZAI.

I GOT HIS FIRST TELEVISION INTERVIEW AS HE WAS COMING UP FROM SOUTHERN AFGHANISTAN THROUGH KANDAHAR WHERE WE STOPPED TO TALK, AND WE USED GASLIGHT TO LIGHT OUR LITTLE SORT OF SET BECAUSE THERE WAS NO ELECTRICITY AND VERY LITTLE ELSE.

MR. KARZAI, HERE WE ARE SITTING IN KANDAHAR SURROUNDED BY TRIBAL ELDERS AND LEADERS.

IN ABOUT A WEEK'S TIME, YOU'RE GOING TO TAKE THE HELM OF THE NEW GOVERNMENT FOR AFGHANISTAN, AN INTERIM GOVERNMENT.

WHAT IS GOING THROUGH YOUR HEAD RIGHT NOW?

IT'S AN EXCITING TIME.

IT'S A NEW BEGINNING FOR AFGHANISTAN.

IF THE WORLD DOES NOT PAY ATTENTION TO AFGHANISTAN, IF IT LEAVES IT WEAK AND BASICALLY A COUNTRY WITH WHICH ONE CAN INTERFERE, ALL THESE BAD PEOPLE WILL COME AGAIN.

KARZAI THEN, OF COURSE, WAS TALKING ABOUT HOW THE UNITED STATES AND THE WORLD SHIFTED ITS ATTENTION FROM AFGHANISTAN AFTER THE SOVIET UNION WAS DEFEATED THERE.

THIS IS WHERE AN INVADING SOVIET ARMY MET ITS FINAL TEST AND LOST.

IT IS WHERE A SUPERPOWER AND THE COLD WAR BEGAN TO DIE.

BUT WHAT TRULY SPARKED THE BEGINNING OF THE END OF THE RIGHT KIND OF AMERICAN AND OTHER ATTENTION ON AFGHANISTAN WAS THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION'S DETERMINATION TO EXPAND WHAT WAS A LEGITIMATE RESPONSE TO AN ACT OF WAR TO A GLOBAL WAR ON TERROR, THAT THEY INSISTED WRONGLY, AS IT TURNS OUT, SADDAM HUSSEIN IN IRAQ WAS UNFINISHED BUSINESS FROM THE FIRST GULF WAR.

THEY INSISTED THAT HE WAS SOMEHOW CONNECTED TO 9/11.

THEN THEY INSISTED THAT HE HAD ACTIVE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION, EVEN NUCLEAR.

WRONG AGAIN.

NONETHELESS, THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION NOW SQUANDERED ALL THAT GOOD WILL THAT ITS ALLIES HAD SHOWN IN COMING TO ITS DEFENSE IN AFGHANISTAN BY INSISTING ON GOING OFF SOMEWHERE ELSE.

ONLY THIS TIME, NEITHER ALLIES LIKE CHIRAC, OR ADVERSARIES, IT TURNS OUT, LIKE PUTIN, SUPPORTED AN EXPANSION OF THIS WAR.

AND ON THE EVE OF THE IRAQ WAR, THAT WOULD BE MARCH OF 2003, I SAT DOWN WITH THE FRENCH PRESIDENT, WHO EXPLAINED WHY, AND WHO IN ALL THESE YEARS LATER HAS BEEN PROVEN RIGHT AND PROPHETIC.

WE JUST FEEL THERE IS ANOTHER OPTION, ANOTHER WAY, A LESS DRAMATIC WAY THAN WAR.

ON THE EVE OF WHAT LOOKS LIKE WAR, WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO SAY TO PRESIDENT BUSH, WHO YOU CALL A

I JUST WANT TO TELL HIM THAT I DON'T SHARE HIS VIEWS, THAT I DON'T APPROVE OF HIS INITIATIVES.

WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED IF THEY HAD TAKEN CHIRAC'S ADVICE ON THE EVE OF THE 2003 WAR?

A FRIEND WAS TRYING TO TELL THEM TO GIVE IT A BIT MORE TIME, FIND A BIT MORE EVIDENCE.

MAYBE THEY WOULDN'T HAVE ENCOUNTERED THIS TERRIBLE DEBACLE IN IRAQ.

MAYBE THEY WOULDN'T HAVE PRECIPITOUSLY RETREATED AND WITHDRAWN AND, YOU KNOW, SEEN THE RISE OF ISIS IN IRAQ, WHICH THEN TOOK THOUSANDS MORE U.S.

TROOPS TO COMBAT ISIS.

AND WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED IF THEY HADN'T WITHDRAWN TOTALLY AND CHAOTICALLY FROM AFGHANISTAN?

BUT THEY HAVE, AND THE TALIBAN IS BACK AND IN CHARGE.

THE WORLD HAS ONE MORE WASTELAND WHOSE PEOPLE WERE GOOD ENOUGH TO FIGHT ITS WAR BUT NOT WORTH THE EFFORT FOR PEACE.

20 YEARS LATER, IT'S COME FULL CIRCLE, AND IT IS ACTUALLY A 180-DEGREE CIRCLE, CERTAINLY FROM WHAT I WITNESSED, BACK TO HELL.

SO WHAT NOW OF AMERICA'S PLACE AND ITS ROLE IN THE WORLD?

AS I MENTIONED, RETIRED U.S.

ARMY COLONEL LAWRENCE WILKERSON WAS CHIEF OF STAFF TO THE FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE COLIN POWELL, AND HE HELPED PREPARE HIM FOR THAT NOW INFAMOUS 2003 SPEECH AT THE U.N. SECURITY COUNCIL WHERE POWELL FALSELY, IT TURNS OUT, CLAIMED THAT SADDAM HUSSEIN HAD THOSE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION.

THAT, OF COURSE, LED THE U.S.

INTO IRAQ AND LEFT WILKERSON WITH A LIFETIME OF REGRETS.

HE'S JOINING ME NOW FROM FALLS CHURCH, VIRGINIA.

LAWRENCE WILKERSON, WELCOME TO OUR PROGRAM.

I WONDER WHAT YOU THINK HAD THAT ROAD THAT WASN'T TAKEN BEEN ACTUALLY TAKEN, THAT THE ADVICE OF CHIRAC HAD ACTUALLY LANDED ON WILLING EARS IN THE WHITE HOUSE, IN DOWNING STREET, AND ELSEWHERE AND THAT THEY HADN'T PRECIPITOUSLY GONE INTO IRAQ.

DO YOU THINK -- DO YOU THINK THAT WAS POSSIBLE, AND WOULD IT HAVE MADE A SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE?

IT WOULD HAVE MADE A HUGE DIFFERENCE PERSONALLY FOR ME AND, I THINK, OVERWHELMINGLY FOR THE LEVANT, FOR AMERICA, AND ULTIMATELY LIBERAL DEMOCRACY IN THE WEST.

WE STARTED SOMETHING IN THE LEVANT WITH OUR INVASION OF IRAQ, BUT WE STARTED SOMETHING THAT STRETCHED FROM THE RED SEA TO AFGHANISTAN, AND WE STARTED SOMETHING THAT CAME BACK, RICOCHETING MIGHTILY IN OUR OWN BACKYARD WITH TORTURE, WITH DESTROYING OUR REPUTATION THAT WE BUILT UP SO PAINSTAKINGLY SINCE WORLD WAR II.

AND WE DID THAT ESSENTIALLY, AS I LOOK BACK ON IT, BECAUSE WE DID SOMETHING THAT WAR THEORISTS AND OTHERS HAVE ADVISED STRENUOUSLY NOT TO DO, AND THAT IS TO MAKE NATIONAL SECURITY DECISIONS -- IN THIS CASE FATEFUL DECISIONS, DECISIONS THAT WILL SEND YOUNG MEN AND YOUNG WOMEN TO DIE -- TO MAKE THEM IN A SENSE OF RAGE AND FEAR AND NOT CALM AND DELIBERATENESS.

THAT'S WHAT WE DID.

WE HAD AN INEXPERIENCED PRESIDENT.

WE HAD A MACHIAVELLIAN VICE PRESIDENT WHO WAS ALLIED WITH A MACHIAVELLIAN SECRETARY OF DEFENSE.

WE HAD A SECRETARY OF STATE WHO WAS CAUGHT IN THE MIDDLE AND COULDN'T SEEM TO BREAK OUT, AND A NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER, DR. RICE, WHO SIDED WITH THE PRESIDENT MORE OFTEN THAN NOT.

AND WE HAD A SITUATION OF RAGE AND FEAR THAT WAS DEALT WITH LIKE IT WAS RAGE AND FEAR, WITHOUT DELIBERATION, WITHOUT CALMNESS.

PRESIDENT BUSH ACTUALLY ASKED A EVANGELICAL GROUP TO MEET WITH HIM IN THE OVAL OFFICE AND HELP HIM RESTRAIN HIS RAGE.

HE WANTED THEIR CHRISTIAN DEMEANOR TO HELP HIM RESTRAIN HIS RAGE.

THAT'S NOT THE WAY TO MAKE NATIONAL SECURITY DECISIONS.

COLONEL, THAT'S REALLY AN INCREDIBLE STORY.

I DON'T THINK I'D HEARD THAT STORY BEFORE.

BUT I WANT YOU TO PERHAPS RELATE IT TO WHEN THE PRESIDENT, AFTER A FEW DAYS OF TRYING TO KEEP A LID ON, YOU KNOW, I GUESS RAGE AND TRYING TO KEEP A LID ON NATIONAL ANGER, WENT TO GROUND ZERO.

AND THERE HE STARTED TO FEEL THE CROWD KIND OF GETTING ANGRY.

AND THAT FAMOUS CLIP OF HIM GETTING UP ONTO THE RUBBLE, HAND AROUND THE SHOULDER OF THE FIREMEN THERE, AND WITH THE MEGAPHONE, ANSWERING THE PEOPLE WHO DEMANDED HE SAY SOMETHING STRONG.

THIS IS WHAT HE SAID.

I CAN HEAR YOU!

[ CROWD CHEERING ]

I CAN HEAR YOU.

THE REST OF THE WORLD HEARS YOU.

AND THE PEOPLE WHO KNOCKED THESE BUILDINGS DOWN WILL HEAR ALL OF US SOON.

[ CROWD CHEERING ]

USA!

USA!

I WONDER WHAT YOU THOUGHT THEN AND WHAT YOU THINK NOW SEEING IT, AND HOW FORMATIVE WAS THAT IN WHAT YOU'RE DESCRIBING AS THIS VERY RAGEFUL AND INFURIOUS FEELING CLEARLY, HAVING BEEN ATTACKED.

YOU PICKED A SUPERB POINT TO EXPLAIN WHAT HAPPENED THERE.

I'VE HAD 400 BRILLIANT STUDENTS ON UNIVERSITY CAMPUSES DOING CASE STUDIES ON THIS FOR THE PAST 16 YEARS, AND THEY'VE TAUGHT ME AS MUCH AS I'VE TAUGHT THEM.

THAT WAS THE TRANSFORMATION MOMENT.

THAT PERSONIFIED WHAT HAPPENED THEN.

THEN DOMESTIC POLITICS BECAME AS MUCH A PART OF THE RAGE AND FEAR AND THEREFORE THE REACTION AS WHAT HAD ACTUALLY HAPPENED WAS.

BY THAT I SIMPLY MEAN AS LBJ IN 1965, WHEN HE KNEW OLD HO AIN'T GOING TO BE MOVED BY NO BOMBS -- THAT'S A DIRECT QUOTE -- AND STILL WENT TO 500,000 IN VIETNAM BECAUSE HE KNEW IF HE CUT AND RUN FROM VIETNAM, HE WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO GET HIS GREAT SOCIETY LEGISLATION THROUGH AND SO FORTH, DOMESTIC POLITICS THEN TOOK OVER FOR GEORGE W. BUSH.

HIS POLL RATINGS WENT FROM 89 TO 90%. AND KARL ROVE TOLD HIM -- I OVERHEARD HIM SAYING THIS IN THE INDIAN TREATY ROOM -- IF WE MILK THIS RIGHT, MEANING THE TERRORIST WAR, WE'LL BE IN POWER FOR A LONG TIME.

AND GEORGE BUSH ACTUALLY SAW HIMSELF AS BEING BETTER THAN DADDY, BETTER THAN GEORGE H.W.

BUSH BECAUSE HE'D GET RE-ELECTED IN 2004 BY USING THIS CONFLICT.

THEN WHEN IT DIED DOWN TO A CERTAIN EXTENT, HE NEEDED TO EXTENUATE IT.

HE NEEDED TO MAKE IT MORE THAN IT WAS.

SO HE WENT TO IRAQ.

THIS IS THE ESSENCE OF THE DECISION-MAKING IN THE BUSH, CHENEY, RUMSFELD, AND I'M SAD TO SAY POWELL ADMINISTRATION.

CLEARLY HISTORY HAS COME DOWN ON YOUR SIDE AND ON THE SIDE OF ALL THE CRITICS OF THE IRAQ WAR.

BUT I DO WANT YOU TO MAKE A DIFFERENTIATION IF YOU CAN, AND IF YOU FEEL THAT WAY, THAT ALSO MOST OF THE SO-CALLED CIVILIZED WORLD, AS TONY BLAIR PUT IT, THE PRIME MINISTER, ALSO BELIEVED THAT WHEN YOU ARE ATTACKED ON YOUR HOMELAND, YOU HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO RESPOND.

THE U.N. EVEN EMPOWERED A RESPONSE.

IT WAS CONSIDERED THAT'S WHAT YOU DO.

WHEN AN ACT OF WAR IS DECLARED ON YOU, YOU AVENGE IT, AND YOU TAKE OUT THE ENEMY, WHICH WAS OSAMA BIN LADEN HOSTED BY THE TALIBAN IN AFGHANISTAN.

YOU WERE ONBOARD THAT FAR, WEREN'T YOU?

YES, BUT AS YOU KNOW, WE DIDN'T TAKE OUT OSAMA BIN LADEN, THE PRINCIPAL OBJECTIVE, UNTIL MANY YEARS LATER.

AND WE TOOK HIM OUT, INTERESTINGLY ENOUGH, AND THOSE WHO DEVELOPED THE TALIBAN, THE GODFATHER OF THE TALIBAN, THE PAKISTANIS, IN PARTICULAR, THE ISI IN PAKISTAN.

YOU ALSO -- I THINK YOU HAVE TO GRASP IT IN TERMS OF THE TWO MAJOR REGIONAL -- AFGHANISTAN AND THEN IRAQ.

HAD WE GONE TO AFGHANISTAN AS INDEED POWELL WAS RECOMMENDING BECAUSE HE KNEW -- HE'D BEEN CHAIRMAN WHEN WE CUT THE SERVICES BY 25% AND THE BASE ALSO.

HE KNEW THAT WE COULDN'T DO AFGHANISTAN AND IRAQ, TWO MAJOR REGIONAL CONTINGENCIES, SIMULTANEOUSLY.

SO HE LET BUSH KNOW THAT.

OF COURSE CHENEY REBUKED HIM BECAUSE HE TOLD HIM, PUTTING HIS FINGER IN HIS CHEST, YOU'RE NOT THE CHAIRMAN ANYMORE, NOT THE CHAIRMAN OF THE JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF.

YOU'RE THE SECRETARY OF STATE NOW, SO STAY OUT OF MILITARY BUSINESS.

NONETHELESS, HE OFFERED HIS ADVICE, AND IT WAS, YOU CAN'T DO THESE TWO THINGS AT ONCE.

SO IF YOU'RE GOING TO DO IRAQ, YOU NEED TO GET OUT OF AFGHANISTAN.

AND AS IT TURNS OUT, I THINK IT WOULD HAVE BEEN A MUCH BETTER DECISION TO SPEND A SIX-MONTH TO A YEAR PERIOD IN AFGHANISTAN TEACHING THE TALIBAN A LESSON, GET AS MUCH OF AL QAEDA AS POSSIBLE, AND THEN LEAVE.

IF YOU'RE GOING TO IRAQ, YOU NEEDED TO DO THAT.

WELL, THAT ASSUMES IT'S RIGHT TO GO TO IRAQ, AND I DON'T THINK IT WAS.

BUT MILITARILY IF YOU WERE GOING TO DO IT, THAT WAS WHAT YOU SHOULD DO.

AND WE DIDN'T.

WE COMPOUNDED OUR STRATEGIC ERROR BY STAYING IN AFGHANISTAN AND TAKING ON IRAQ TOO.

BY THE WAY, WE DIDN'T JUST TAKE ON IRAQ.

WE TOOK ON SYRIA, LIBYA, SOMALIA, AND A FEW PLACES I CAN'T EVEN TALK ABOUT.

SO THEN LET ME ASK YOU BECAUSE WE'RE FACED NOW, 20 YEARS LATER, WITH WHAT MANY HAVE DESCRIBED AS FULL CIRCLE.

RE-EMPOWERING, HANDING OVER JUST ABOUT UNDER THE GUISE OF NEGOTIATIONS IN DOHA, TOTALLY IT SEEMS ON THE TALIBAN'S TERMS, THAT COUNTRY BACK TO THE TALIBAN.

WHAT DO YOU THINK IS GOING TO BE THE RESULT OF THAT?

I MEAN I COULD ASK YOU WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT THAT, BUT I THINK I UNDERSTAND.

WHAT'S GOING TO BE THE RESULT OF IT IN TERMS OF AFGHANISTAN, IN TERMS OF AMERICA'S PLACE IN THE WORLD AND FUTURE FOREIGN POLICY?

WE HAVE TWO ALTERNATIVES AS I SEE IT.

THERE ARE PERMUTATIONS OF EACH, BUT BASICALLY THEY ARE WHAT I THINK WE'LL DO BECAUSE WE HAVE BECOME AN EMPIRE WITHOUT RESTRAINT.

THE FIRST ONE IS WHAT I THINK WE'LL DO, AND THAT IS THAT WE WILL FUND AND SUPPORT ANYBODY IN THE AREA WHO WANTS TO OVERTHROW THE CURRENT TALIBAN GOVERNMENT.

WE'LL CREATE SIX OR SEVEN NEW LIONS OF PANJSHIR, IF YOU WILL.

WHAT WE SHOULD DO, WHAT WE SHOULD DO IS GET WITH SERGEY LAVROV, GET WITH WANG YI, GET WITH THEIR EQUIVALENTS IN IRAN COUNTRIES -- TURKEY, TURKMENISTAN, UZBEKISTAN -- AND SIT DOWN SOMEWHERE AND TALK ABOUT WHAT WE'RE GOING TO DO FOR AFGHANISTAN NOW THAT NONE OF US HAVE DONE TO THIS POINT.

AND OF COURSE YOU'VE GOT TO BRING PAKISTAN IN THERE, AND SORT OF WITH ONE ARM BEHIND THEIR BACK AND TWISTED HARD.

YOU'VE GOT TO GET THESE PEOPLE INTERESTED IN AN AFGHANISTAN THAT IS STABLE, AN AFGHANISTAN THAT IS LARGELY PEACEFUL AND NOT A HAVEN FOR TERRORISTS, AND I THINK EVERYONE HAS AN INTEREST IN THAT FROM THE CHINESE TO THE RUSSIANS AND ALL AROUND THE BORDERS.

AND DO SOMETHING DECENT FOR ONCE.

USE YOUR GOOD OFFICES.

USE DIPLOMACY.

USE ECONOMIC AND FINANCIAL POWER.

RELEASE THEIR RESERVES, FOR EXAMPLE.

AS I UNDERSTAND IT RIGHT NOW, THEY CAN'T EVEN TOUCH THEIR RESERVES, THE TALIBAN.

THEY CAN'T DO ANYTHING REALLY TO FUNCTION AS A GOVERNMENT IF THE SURROUNDING COUNTRIES AND US DON'T ALLOW THEM TO DO SO, WE'RE PRIMARILY THE COUNTRY THAT NEEDS TO HELP THEM BECAUSE WE OWN SO MUCH OF THE WORLD BANKING SYSTEM.

THAT'S WHAT WE SHOULD DO.

WILL WE DO IT?

I WOULD BE VERY SURPRISED IF WE TAKE THAT APPROACH.

I THINK WE'LL PROBABLY TAKE THE FIRST APPROACH.

I WONDER WHETHER -- YOU KNOW, I THINK CERTAINLY THE WEST HAS TALKED ABOUT TRYING TO HELP THE AFGHAN PEOPLE, BUT LOOK AT THE EVIDENCE THAT THEY'RE FACED WITH EVERY DAY NOW.

THE TALIBAN JUST LIKE ESSENTIALLY THROWING IT IN THEIR FACES WITH EVERYTHING THEY DO AGAINST WOMEN AND THE REST.

SO THAT'S AN INTERESTING CONCEPT.

YOU KNOW, PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS SUGGESTED THESE YEARS OF AMERICAN EMPIRE, TRYING TO REMAKE OTHER COUNTRIES IN AMERICA'S IMAGE, IT'S JUST OVER.

AND OTHERS HAVE PUSHED BACK, SAYING, WELL, WE DO NEED TO ACTUALLY DEFEND THOSE VERY IMPORTANT VALUES THAT WE, AMERICA, HELPED BUILD AND DEFEND SINCE THE END OF WORLD WAR II.

SO WHAT IS THE MIDDLE GROUND THERE?

WHAT IS THE THIRD WAY?

DO YOU SEE A THIRD WAY BETWEEN MILITARY INTERVENTION EVERYWHERE AND NOTHING?

I THINK THERE HAS TO BE, AND I THINK IT'S ARISTOTLE'S MODERATION IN ALL THINGS, IF YOU WILL.

LET ME JUST BACK UP FOR A SECOND AND SAY THE PERSON, THE ENTITY, THE STATE ENTITY IN PARTICULAR, THE EMPIRE, THE IMPEER YUM THAT HAS DONE THE MOST DAMAGE TO LIBERAL DEMOCRACY IN THE WORLD TODAY IS THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, FROM ONE END OF THE GLOBE TO THE OTHER.

POLLS NOW SHOW THAT BETTER THAN HALF OF THE WORLDS 7 BILLION, 8 BILLION PEOPLE BELIEVE THE GREATEST THREAT TO THEIR FUTURE AND THEIR CHILDREN'S FUTURE IS THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

THIS COMES FROM BOMBS DROPPING ON INNOCENT PALESTINIAN CHILDREN, TO AFGHANISTAN, TO IRAQ, TO SYRIA, TO SOMALIA, YOU NAME IT.

IT COMES FROM ALL OF THAT.

WE HAVE DONE AS MUCH TORTURE, WE HAVE DONE AS MUCH DAMAGE TO OUR REPUTATION AND TO THE WORLD'S VIEW OF US THAN ANY OTHER SINGLE THING.

THAT SAID, WE DO HAVE TO FIND THAT MIDDLE ROAD THAT YOU'VE JUST DESCRIBED, AND I APPLAUD PRESIDENT BIDEN FOR SAYING TO THE MILITARY, WHO WERE AGAINST THIS, YOU WILL NOTE THEY'VE ALREADY STARTED THEIR CAMPAIGN OF STABBED IN THE BACK.

IT'S NOT STABBED IN THE BACK.

IT'S NOT HARRY SUMMERS IN VIETNAM, WE NEVER LOST ON THE BATTLEFIELD.

IT'S THE MANTRA OF, OH, THIS WAS A POLITICAL DEFEAT, NOT A MILITARY DEFEAT.

OH, TELL ME THAT, GENERALS.

ALL YOU GENERALS WHO WERE IN AFGHANISTAN ALL THIS TIME AND NEVER ONCE OBJECTED TO THE EXPENDITURE OF MONEY, BLOOD, AND TREASURE OR ANYTHING ELSE.

THIS IS AN INCREDIBLE INDICTMENT OF THE PENTAGON, AND YET WE'VE GOT THIS RISING UP, IF YOU WILL, AGAINST THE POLITICAL DECISION TO GET OUT.

WE GOT OUT, AND I APPLAUD PRESIDENT BIDEN FOR THAT.

BUT NOW AS I SAID, WE CAN'T JUST ABANDON THEM, AND WE CAN'T RESUME THE JIMMY CARTER SUPPORT THE MUJAHIDEEN, THE RONALD REAGAN IDEA OF LET'S OVERTHROW EVERYTHING OVER THERE AS LONG AS IT DOESN'T AGREE WITH US.

WE'VE GOT TO BECOME A MORE COMPETENT POWER IF WE'RE GOING TO MAINTAIN OUR IMPACT, AND WE PARTICULARLY HAVE TO BE MORE COMMENT ON THE PERIPHERY OF THAT EMPIRE WHERE OTHER PEOPLE LIKE THE CHINESE HAVE A PREROGATIVE, HAVE A RIGHT TO DO WHAT THEY'RE DOING LIKE THE RUSSIANS AND SO FORTH.

I'M NO FAN OF PUTIN.

I'M NO FAN OF XI JINPING.

BUT WE'VE GOT TO LEARN TO LIVE WITH THESE EMPIRES, THESE NEAR EMPIRES IF YOU WILL, AND WE'VE GOT TO LEARN TO USE DIPLOMACY MORE OFTEN THAN WE USE MILITARY POWER, BOMBS, BULLETS AND BAYONETS.

LOOK AT THE MONEY WE'VE SPENT.

WE HAVE SPENT, COUNTING THE COST OF TAKING CARE OF OUR VETERANS, ALMOST $7 TRILLION.

MAYBE DIPLOMACY IS GOING TO BE THE WAY OUT OF THIS.

WE'LL SEE.

FASCINATING INSIGHTS, COLONEL WILKERSON.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH INDEED FOR BEING WITH US ON THIS ANNIVERSARY COVERAGE.

> OUR NEXT GUEST HAS AN EXTRAORDINARY PERSONAL STORY.

HE WAS THE NEW YORK FIRE CHIEF JOE PFEIFFER ON THE MORNING OF 9/11, HE LED HIS FIREFIGHTERS TO INVESTIGATE THE SMELL OF GAS IN DOWNTOWN MANHATTAN, HAVING NO IDEA WHAT WOULD COME NEXT.

JOE DOCUMENTED HIS ACCOUNT AS THE FIRST FIRE CHIEF AT GROUND ZERO IN HIS MEMOIR 'ORDINARY HEROES,' AND HE SPOKE ABOUT THE DAY EVERYTHING CHANGED.

CHIEF, THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

IT WAS BY COINCIDENCE THAT THERE WAS A PAIR OF BROTHER FILMMAKERS WHO WERE FOLLOWING YOU ALONG ON THIS DAY, AND YOU WERE OUT FOR WHAT SEEMED LIKE A ROUTINE GAS LEAK INSPECTION, OUT ON THE STREETS WHEN THIS HAPPENED.

TAKE US BACK TO THAT MOMENT WHEN YOU HEARD THE FIRST PLANE.

WE WERE AT AN ORDINARY EMERGENCY IN THE STREET, AN ODOR OF GAS, WHICH TURNED OUT TO BE NOTHING.

AND THEN AT 8:46, WE HEARD THIS LOUD NOISE OF A PLANE COMING OVERHEAD, WHICH YOU NEVER HEAR IN MANHATTAN BECAUSE OF THE TALL BUILDINGS.

[ SOUND OF AIRPLANE ] AND THEN I SEE THIS PLANE RACING SOUTH ALONG THE HUDSON RIVER, SO LOW THAT I COULD READ ON THE FUSELAGE OF THE PLANE THE WORD 'AMERICAN.'

IT DISAPPEARED BEHIND SOME OF THE TALLER BUILDINGS.

THEN WHEN IT REAPPEARED, I SAW THE PLANE AIM AND CRASH INTO THE WORLD TRADE CENTER.

YOU GET IN THERE, AND AS WE SEE IN THE FILM AND AS YOU DESCRIBE IN THE BOOK, IT IS A SURREAL LANDSCAPE BECAUSE THERE'S ALREADY BROKEN GLASS EVERYWHERE ON THE GROUND.

THERE ARE TEAMS OF FIREFIGHTERS COMING IN.

THEY'RE KIND OF WAITING FOR ORDERS BECAUSE THE ELEVATORS DON'T WORK.

THEY'RE FULL OF JET FUEL AND YOU ALREADY HAVE BURNED PEOPLE IN THE LOBBY.

AND YOU'RE GIVING ORDERS TO THESE YOUNG MEN TO WHAT?

START CLIMBING THE STAIRS, 70 FLIGHTS TO START RESCUING PEOPLE.

MY ORDERS, AS THEY CAME UP TO ME, WERE TWO THINGS.

TO GO UP BY CLIMBING THE NARROW STAIRS AS YOU MENTIONED BECAUSE THE ELEVATORS WERE NOT WORKING IN THE NORTH TOWER.

AND AS THEY WERE CLIMBING UP, I ASKED THEM TO EVACUATE THE BUILDING, GO UP TO THE METAL FLOORS.

WE WILL REGROUP, AND THEN WE'LL PUSH UP FURTHER TO RESCUE THOSE THAT WERE TRAPPED BY FIRE AND BY SMOKE.

ONE OF THESE PEOPLE THAT YOU GAVE THAT ORDER TO IS YOUR LITTLE BROTHER, KEVIN.

UM, MY YOUNGER BROTHER CAME IN A LITTLE BEFORE 9:00, AND HE CAME UP TO ME WITHOUT SAYING A WORD.

WE LOOKED AT EACH OTHER, WONDERING IF EACH OF US WAS GOING TO BE OKAY.

AND THEN LIKE I DID FOR THE OTHER FIRE OFFICERS, I ORDERED HIM UP TO EVACUATE AND RESCUE.

HE SLOWLY TURNED AROUND AND TOOK HIS ENGINE COMPANY, ENGINE 33, AND WHEN HE LEFT THE LOBBY, THAT WAS THE LAST TIME I SAW MY BROTHER KEVIN.

THERE ARE MOMENTS, IF PEOPLE HAVEN'T SEEN THE FILM OR READ YOUR BOOK, THERE ARE MOMENTS THAT ARE REALLY DIFFICULT FOR PEOPLE TO IMAGINE.

AND ONE OF THEM IS THE SOUND OUTSIDE THAT SOUNDS LIKE A TON OF BRICKS OR A CAR HAS JUST FALLEN FROM THE SKY.

WHAT WERE THOSE SOUNDS?

THOSE WERE SOUNDS OF A LOUD THUD, AND IT WAS CRASHING ON TOP OF A PLEXIGLAS CANOPY THAT WAS AT THE ENTRANCE TO THE LOBBY OF THE NORTH TOWER.

AND IT WAS VERY, VERY LOUD, AND IT KEPT HAPPENING.

THOSE SOUNDS WAS THE SOUND OF PEOPLE JUMPING.

AND EACH THUD MEANT ANOTHER LIFE BEING EXTINGUISHED.

AND I WAS SO FRUSTRATED, AT ONE POINT I RAN OVER TO THE P.A., AND I GRABBED THE MIC, AND I ASKED PEOPLE -- I SAID, IF YOU COULD HOLD ON, JUST HOLD ON A LITTLE LONGER BECAUSE WE'RE COMING FOR YOU.

WE'RE COMING TO GET YOU.

BUT I ONLY COULD IMAGINE WHAT THAT MUST HAVE BEEN LIKE.

THERE ARE MOMENTS WHERE WHEN THE TOWER THAT YOU ARE NOT IN COLLAPSED, THE DEBRIS COMES IN TO WHERE YOU ARE.

YOU'RE ALL RUNNING.

AND IT MAKES IT ABSOLUTELY PITCH BLACK.

AND BY COINCIDENCE, THERE'S A CAMERA AROUND.

YOU JUST HEAR MUFFLED VOICES.

WHAT WERE YOU THINKING AT THAT TIME?

AT 9:59, WE HEARD THIS RUMBLING SOUND, AND IF YOU'RE WATCHING ON TV, YOU KNEW THAT WAS THE SOUTH TOWER COLLAPSING.

I HAD NO IDEA WHAT THAT SOUND WAS.

IT SOUNDED LIKE I WAS STANDING UNDERNEATH THE TRAIN TRESTLE WHERE A TRAIN IS COMING OVERHEAD.

IT GETS LOUDER AND LOUDER AND DISSIPATES.

BUT I THOUGHT SOMETHING WAS CRASHING INTO THE LOBBY, MAYBE DOWN THE ELEVATOR SHAFT OR THROUGH THE WINDOWS FROM ABOVE.

REALLY I THOUGHT WE WERE THE ONLY ONES THAT FELT IN.

AND THEN THE LOBBY GOES COMPLETELY BLACK WHERE WE COULDN'T SEE ANYTHING.

AND THE CHIEF I WAS WITH SAYING, WE'VE GOT TO GET OUT OF HERE, WHICH WAS A GOOD DECISION.

BUT I KNEW HOW TO GET OUT OF HERE.

I'VE BEEN IN THIS BUILDING HUNDREDS OF TIMES.

SO THAT AGAIN GAVE ME A MOMENT TO DELIBERATELY THINK, IF WE HAVE TO GET OUT OF HERE, WHAT WILL I HAVE TO DO RIGHT THIS MOMENT?

AND I GOT ON THE RADIO, AND I SAID, COMMAND TO ALL UNITS IN TOWER ONE, EVACUATE THE BUILDING.

ALL UNITS, EVACUATE THE BUILDING.

COMMAND POST TO ALL UNITS.

SO I WAS PULLING MY FIREFIGHTERS OUT FOR PERHAPS THE FIRST TIME IN HISTORY WITH SO MANY PEOPLE STILL IN THE BUILDING.

YOU WRITE THAT IN THE BOOK.

NEVER IN THE HISTORY OF FDNY HAD CHIEFS MADE A DECISION TO ABANDON A BURNING BUILDING WITH OVER 1,000 PEOPLE IN IT.

AND THIS IS JUST MINUTES AFTER, THROUGH YOUR OWN FRUSTRATION, YOU GOT ON THE PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENT SYSTEM AND SAID, WE ARE COMING.

WHAT IS THAT MOMENT LIKE KNOWING THAT YOU'RE THE PERSON THAT GAVE THESE PEOPLE HOPE, AND AT THE SAME TIME, TO HELP SAVE YOUR OWN FIREFIGHTERS AND ANYBODY ELSE POSSIBLE, YOU ARE TELLING THEM TO STOP DOING THAT JOB AND LEAVE THE BUILDING?

AT THAT MOMENT, I STILL HAD NO IDEA THAT A SKYSCRAPER JUST COLLAPSED.

WHAT I WAS TRYING TO DO IS THAT SOMETHING REALLY WENT WRONG.

I DON'T KNOW WHAT IT IS.

LET'S PULL OUR FIREFIGHTERS OUT, REGROUP, AND THEN GO BACK IN.

LITTLE DID I KNOW THAT WE ONLY HAD 29 MINUTES BETWEEN THE TWO COLLAPSES.

I WANT TO ASK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT JUST THE AFTERMATH OF ALL THIS.

I MEAN FIRST OF ALL, TILL US WHAT KEVIN WAS LIKE.

KEVIN WAS MORE FUN-LOVING THAN MANY.

HE LOVED DEFENSIVE ADVENTURE.

HE SHARED A PRIVATE PLANE WHERE HE FLEW, A LITTLE CESSNA, ONE PROPELLER.

AND I DIDN'T GO ON THE PLANE WITH HIM.

I WAS MORE THAN A LITTLE CAUTIOUS.

BUT HE ALSO HAD AN 18-FOOT HOBI CAT, AND WE WENT SAILING IN THE OCEAN AND THE BAY AROUND NEW YORK CITY.

AND THERE'S A PLACE CALLED AVALANCHE, WHICH IS JUST AT THE TIP OF THE ROCKAWAYS, WHERE OUT IN THE OCEAN, IT'S LIKE A SANDBAR, AND THEN THERE'S BREAKERS.

AND WITH THE HOBI CAT AND WITH THE TWO PONTOONS AND THE HUGE SAIL, WE WERE SURFING WAVES WITH A SAILBOAT IN THE OCEAN, SCREAMING AT THE TOP OF OUR LUNGS, GO FASTER, GO FASTER.

SO HE WAS DEFINITELY MORE INTO ADVENTURE, BUT I WOULD JOIN HIM EVERY NOW AND THEN, AT LEAST IN THE SAILING.

HE WAS ONE OF SO MANY OF THE FIREFIGHTERS THAT YOU KNEW THAT YOU LOST.

YOU WERE ONLY ONE OF FOUR SURVIVING BATTALION CHIEFS.

THIS PRACTICALLY WIPED OUT SOME OF THE SENIOR LEADERSHIP IN THE FDNY IN JUST ONE EVENT.

WE LOST 19 BATTALION CHIEFS THAT DAY.

WE LOST OUR CHIEF OF DEPARTMENT, A NUMBER OF ASSISTANT CHIEFS.

WE LOST THE TOP OF THE DEPARTMENT.

AND NOT ONLY DID WE HAVE TO REBUILD THE DEPARTMENT, BUT IN THE MOMENT, WE HAD TO BUILD A COMMAND STRUCTURE FROM NOTHING BECAUSE OUR TOP LEADERS WERE ALL KILLED.

AND WHAT I SAW WAS OUR DEPUTY CHIEFS TAKING COMMAND JUST BY THE VIRTUE OF WHO THEY ARE.

THE SITE WAS DIVIDED INTO FOUR QUADRANTS.

I CAN REMEMBER HEARING THEIR VOICES FROM DIFFERENT QUADRANTS AND PEOPLE TRUSTING THEM.

SO COMMAND WAS ESTABLISHED IN THIS EMERGING PROCESS FROM THE BOTTOM UP, NOT FROM THE TOP DOWN BECAUSE THEY HAD ALL DIED.

WHAT IS HARD TO IMAGINE IS THE LAYERS OF TRAUMA THAT THE FIREFIGHTERS AND FIRST RESPONDERS WERE DEALING WITH BECAUSE IT WASN'T JUST A SINGULAR EVENT ON THAT SPECIFIC DAY.

FOR WEEKS AND WEEKS AND MONTHS, THERE WERE FIREFIGHTERS, INCLUDING YOURSELF STANDING AT TIMES 18 HOURS A DAY, LOOKING FOR THEIR LOVED ONES.

YOU LOOKING FOR YOUR BROTHER AND FINDING ALL KINDS OF THINGS THAT I DON'T THINK MOST OF US EVEN WANT IN OUR MEMORIES.

CERTAINLY THE MONTHS AFTER -- AND WE SPENT NINE MONTHS AT THE SITE.

IT WASN'T CLOSED UNTIL MAY 30th OF 2002 WHEN WE WERE DOWN LITERALLY AT THE BOTTOM OF THE PILE.

BUT I THINK WE GO THROUGH A PROCESS OF RESILIENCE, AND NOT JUST THE FIRST RESPONDERS AND THE FIREFIGHTERS, BUT EVERYBODY.

AND THE FIRST THING IS COMING TOGETHER.

FOR US, IT WAS THE FIREHOUSE.

IT FELT COMFORTABLE BEING WITH FELLOW FIREFIGHTERS.

BUT WE ALSO SAW IN THE STREET PEOPLE COMING TOGETHER AND MAKING A MAKESHIFT MEMORIAL OF CANDLES AND FLOWERS AND PICTURES OF LOST LOVED ONES BECAUSE WE DIDN'T WANT TO GO THROUGH THIS TRAUMA ALONE.

AND THEN WHAT WE DO IS LIKE WE'RE DOING TODAY.

WE TELL STORIES.

AND FOR ME, IT WAS REFLECTING ON THE PAST.

BUT WE CAN'T STAY THERE.

WE HAVE TO ENVISION A NEW FUTURE TO TURN THOSE TRAUMATIC MEMORIES INTO HOPE.

AND FOR ME, THAT WAS WORKING IN THE FIRE DEPARTMENT WITH A NEW PURPOSE TO BE THEIR CHIEF OF COUNTERTERRORISM AND EMERGENCY PREPAREDNESS, A TITLE WHICH I LITERALLY MADE UP.

IT DIDN'T EXIST BEFORE, SO THAT WE COULD WORK WITH MULTIPLE AGENCIES.

SO I THINK THOSE THINGS IS WHAT WE WENT THROUGH AFTER 9/11 AND SO MANY OTHER FIREFIGHTERS WENT THROUGH THAT PROCESS AS WELL AS THE PEOPLE THROUGHOUT THE COUNTRY.

IF YOU DON'T MIND, CAN YOU TELL ME WHAT IS THE PROCESS LIKE WHEN THEY FOUND YOUR BROTHER?

WHAT WENT THROUGH YOU?

WHAT HAPPENED ON THE SITE?

IT'S A VERY PERSONAL STORY.

ON SUPER BOWL SUNDAY 2002, I WAS CALLED TO THE SITE.

I HAPPENED TO BE WORKING THAT DAY BY CHANCE, AND THEY WOULDN'T TELL ME WHERE I WAS GOING, WHICH WAS KIND OF STRANGE, OR WHAT I WAS GOING TO DO, RATHER.

BUT I KNEW, SINCE THEY DIDN'T TELL ME, THAT THEY FOUND MY BROTHER.

AND I CAME TO THE SITE, AND THEY HAD HIM IN A STOKES STRETCHER, AND THEY KNEW IT WAS KEVIN BECAUSE ON THE BACK OF HIS TURNOUT COAT, IT SAYS PFEIFER.

AND THERE WAS AN AMERICAN FLAG COVERING HIM.

AND MYSELF AND MEMBERS WE PULLED FROM ENGINE 33, WE CARRIED HIM OUT OF THE PIT OF GROUND ZERO INTO A WAITING AMBULANCE.

AND I CAN REMEMBER BEING IN THAT AMBULANCE, AND IT WAS THE SADDEST DAY OF MY LIFE SITTING NEXT TO HIM ON THE SQUAD BENCH WHILE HE WAS ON THE STRETCHER.

AND I REMEMBER TEARS RUNNING DOWN MY FACE AND SEEING THE ENGINE WITH FLASHING LIGHTS BEHIND THE AMBULANCE IN THE SPOT MY BROTHER USED TO SIT.

BUT THEN ALL OF A SUDDEN, I FELT THIS -- THIS SENSE OF WARMTH, ALMOST LIKE A WARM BREEZE, AND I STARTED TO REMEMBER THE TIMES WE SAILED TOGETHER.

AND I WENT FROM THIS INTENSE SADNESS TO MEMORIES OF JOY.

AND THAT'S HOW I REMEMBER MY BROTHER, AND I'M VERY FORTUNATE THAT I HAD THAT OPPORTUNITY TO HAVE THAT LONG AMBULANCE RIDE FROM GROUND ZERO TO THE MORGUE AT BELLEVUE HOSPITAL.

IT SEEMS FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT THAT WAS THE LAST TIME THAT AMERICANS SET ASIDE POLITICS GENUINELY AND CAME TOGETHER FOR SOMETHING.

AND WE'VE HAD MULTIPLE PRESIDENTS, AND WE'VE HAD THIS WAR THAT'S GONE ON FOR SO LONG.

WE'VE JUST HAD A LOT OF PEOPLE TEARING EACH OTHER DOWN.

WHAT CAN YOU SAY FROM YOUR LIFE EXPERIENCE ABOUT HOW YOU SURVIVED THIS, HOW YOU'VE STAYED OPTIMISTIC THROUGH THIS THAT WE CAN LEARN FROM?

THIS RESILIENCE THAT YOU HAVE, HOW DO WE GET SOME OF THAT?

I THINK WE GET IT BY TRYING TO CONNECT BACK TO THAT SPIRIT WE FELT 20 YEARS AGO.

ALL OF US FELT THE SENSE OF UNITY, OF NATIONALISM, OF ACTUALLY BEING PART OF A GLOBAL COMMUNITY.

AND IT WASN'T JUST A THOUGHT IN OUR MINDS.

WE FELT IT IN OUR HEARTS.

AND I THINK THIS 20th ANNIVERSARY, MORE THAN ANY OTHER ANNIVERSARY, I GET THIS SENSE SINCE WE'RE SO FRAGMENTED NOW, THAT THEY WANT TO COME BACK TO THAT SPIRIT THAT WE CAN DO THIS TOGETHER.

I MEAN, WE'RE GOING TO FACE OTHER TERRORIST EVENTS, CLIMATE CHANGE EVENTS, THE PANDEMIC WE'RE IN, AND I THINK THE ANNIVERSARY IS A MOMENT FOR US TO FEEL THAT SENSE OF UNITY AND TAKE IT FROM 20 YEARS AGO AND TO APPLY IT TODAY AND TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE IN EACH OTHER'S LIVES.

CHIEF JOE PFEIFER, THANKS SO MUCH FOR SHARING YOUR STORY, AND OUR CONDOLENCES TO YOUR FAMILY.

THANK YOU.

> AND FINALLY, THE CITY OF NEW YORK HAS, OF COURSE, RESILIENTLY REBUILT SINCE 9/11.

AND AFTER THE PRESIDENT AND THE FAMILIES COMMEMORATE ALL THAT WAS LOST THAT DAY, LATER ON, SATURDAY'S 20th ANNIVERSARY, ONE ARENA AT LEAST WILL BE HOPPING WITH FRENZIED FANS.

NEW YORKERS HAVE FLOCKED TO THE BILLIE JEAN KING NATIONAL TENNIS CENTER FOR THE MOST FAIRY TALE OF SPORTS STORIES THAT'S BEEN BUILDING OVER THESE PAST TWO WEEKS, TOWARDS A HISTORY-MAKING U.S. OPEN WOMEN'S FINAL BETWEEN TWO UNDERDOGS, BOTH TEENS, BOTH MULTICULTURAL DAUGHTERS OF IMMIGRANTS.

CANADIAN LEYLAH FERNANDEZ MEETS BRITAIN'S EMMA RAD CANOE.

THE WILLIAMS SISTERS PLAYED IN THE 2001 FINAL JUST A FEW DAYS BEFORE THE ATTACKS.

20 YEARS LATER TO THE DAY, THE TORCH IS FINALLY BEING PASSED TO A NEW GENERATION.

PERHAPS NEW HOPE.

AND THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

REMEMBER THAT YOU CAN FOLLOW ME AND THE SHOW ON TWITTER.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING 'AMANPOUR & CO.' ON PBS AND JOIN US AGAIN NEXT TIME.