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> HELLO, EVERYONE.
AND WELCOME TO 'AMANPOUR AND COMPANY.'
HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.
> HOW DOES SPORT CHANGE AND CHALLENGE SOCIETY?
WE START A SPECIAL SHOW WITH A LOOK AT THE GREATEST.
I HAVE PAID, BUT I AM FREE.
MOHAMED ALI GETS THE KEN BURNS TREATMENT.
HOW HIS ACTIVISM WAS FUELED BY HIS FAITH.
THEN --
IT STILL HASN'T SUNK IN BECAUSE AFTER THE MATCH I HAVEN'T REALLY HAD A MOMENT TO JUST STOP.
AS A NEW GENERATION OF TENNIS STARS EMERGES, I TALKED TO FORMER NUMBER ONE JOHN McENROE HEALTH ON COURT.
WHAT COLIN KAEPERNICK PROVIDED WAS A METHOD OF STRUGGLE.
TALKING ABOUT THE KAEPERNICK EFFECT.
♪♪♪
> 'AMANPOUR & COMPANY' IS MAD- SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III.
CANDACE KING WEIR.
THE CHERYL AND PHILIP MILSTEIN FAMILY.
THE ANDERSON FAMILY FUND.
THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION.
JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.
BERNARD AND DENISE SCHWARTZ.
KU AND PATRICIA EWING, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.
ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.
THANK YOU.
EVERYONE.ME TO THE PROGRAM I'M CHRISTIANA AMANPOUR IN LONDON.
> TODAY, HOW ATHLETE WHO IS STAND UP TO BE COUNTED CAN BE CRUCIAL TO PROGRESS.
SO WE START WITH A BRAND NEW INVESTIGATION INTO AN AMERICANA, FAITH AND RACE DECADES BEFORE PROTESTED RACIAL INJUSTICE BYK TAKING A KNEE DURING THE NATIONAL ANTHEM, THERE WAS MOHAMMED ALI, THE GREATEST, WHO RISKED JAIL, BEING STRIPPED OF HIS TITLES AND FINANCIAL RUIN TO DEFEND HIS FAITH AND AFRICAN AMERICAN RIGHTS.
HERE IS ALI'S DAUGHTER RASHEDA.
DADDY EVOLVED.
HE BECAME BETTER.
AND DADDY SAID THAT, I'M BIGGER THAN BOXING.
THAT MEANT BOXING WAS THIS MUCH.
HIS EVOLUTION INTO THE PERSON HE IS TODAY IS BIGGER THAN BOXING.
DRAWING THE EYE OF KEN BURNS, WHO CALLS HIM A TRANSCENDENT AMERICAN CHARACTER.
IN HIS NEW PBS DOCUMENTARY SERIES 'MOHAMMED ALI.'
HERE IS A CLIP.
BADDEST MAN IN THE WORLD.
WITHOUT ANY FURTHER INTRODUCTION, MOHAMMED ALI.
HE'S YOUNG, HE'S HANDSOME.
THEY KNOW IT.
WHO'S GOING TO STOP ME?
WELL AIN'T NOBODY GONNA STOP ME.
AND GET RESPECT FROM THE WORLD.
HE'S 22 YEARS OLD.
AND HE'S STANDING UP TO THE WHOLE ESTABLISHMENT.
WAIT TILL YOU SEE MOHAMMED ALI.
I'VE BEEN SPEAKING TO KEN BURNS ABOUT THE AMERICAN ICON HE FINDS SO COMPELLING.
KEN BURNS, WELCOME BACK TOUR PROGRAM.
SO GOOD TO BE WITH YOU.
THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.
WE KNOW A LOT ABOUT MOHAMMED.
WE'VE SEEN HIS FIGHTS.
WE KNOW WHO HE IS.
THE GREATEST, YOU KNOW.
STING LIKE A BEE.
OR THE OTHER WAY AROUND.
WHY DID YOU DECIDE THAT THERE WAS MORE TO SAY ABOUT HIM?
WE ARE INTERESTED, AS WE ARE A ONE TO DO IN A RATHER COMPREHENSIVE VIEW.
AND SO WE WANTED TO START AT HIS BIRTH AND CHILDHOOD IN SEGREGATED JIM CROW LOUISVILLE, KENTUCKY AND TAKE IT ALL THE WAY TO HIS DEATH BY PARKINSON'S NOT THAT LONG AGO IN 2016, FIVE YEARS AGO.
WE ALSO WANTED TO COVER THE BOXING AND DO IT COMPLETELY.
AND OF COURSE IF YOU TAKE THE SERIES OF HIS BOXING MATCHES, IT WORKS OF WILLIAM SHAKESPEARE.
IT IS AN AMAZING STORY AND AMAZING EPIC ACTUALLY.
AND TO MY MIND CONCLUDES WITH POLITICS.
IT IS HOW THIS PERSON IN ALL HIE SO LET'S JUST START A LITTLE BIS BIRTH.
AS A LITTLE BOY, HE CAME ACCIDENTALLY TO BOXING.
AS YOU SAY, GROWING UP IN JIM CROW, SEGREGATED, LOUISVILLE, KENTUCKY.
HE AS YOU MENTIONED BASICALLY HAD HIS BRAND NEW RED SCHWINN BICYCLE STOLEN THAT HE WAS SHARING WITH HIS BROTHER.
AND HE WENT TO FIND A POLICEMAN TO COMPLAIN TO.
I'M GOING TO PLAY THIS SEGMENT FROM THE FIRST EPISODE.
ABOUT IT.WE'RE GOING TO TALK
WENT THERE IN THE BASEMENT RUNNING A LITTLE BOXING SCHOOL.
LATER THAT FOR A MINUTE HE FORGOT ABOUT HIS BIKE BECAUSE THE SIGHT OF THIS BOXING GYM T SMELL OF THE LEATHER AND SWEAT AND EXCITEMENT OF BOYS IN A RING HITTING EACH OTHER, BLACK AND WHITE TOGETHER.
AND AND HE REPORTED THE GUY I'M GONNA KILL HIM.HE GUY AND KNOW HOW TO FIGHT?LL, DO YOU FIGHT?
AND THAT WAS THE BEGINNING.
THAT'S A GREAT ANECDOTE.
HOW DID THAT GRAB YOU?
HAPPENED, IT WAS AN ACCIDENT REALLY OF TIME AND PLACE.
OF COURSE IT WAS A WHITE COP AND IT WAS MIXED RACE KIDS IN THE TRAINING CAMP, SO TO SPEAK.
THAT ALL MUST HAVE SHAPED HIM.
IT'S A WONDERFUL MYTHOLOGY, YOU KNOW, ORIGIN STORY FOR A HUGELY EPIC FIGURE AS YOU SUGGEST.
THIS IS A MAN WHO IS INTERSECTING WITH ALL OF THE ISSUES OF THE LATE 20th CENTURY, THE ROLE OF SPORTS, THE ROLE OF THE BLACK ATHLETE OF SPORTS.
THE DEFINITION OF BLACK MASCULINITY AND MANHOOD.
THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT.
RELIGION, FAITH, POLITICS, WAR, SEX -- YOU NAME IT.
MOHAMMED ALI INTERSECTS AND HE SPEAKS TO US TODAY BECAUSE ALL OF THOSE THINGS ARE FRONT AND CENTER.
BUT HERE IS THIS MOMENT.
THIS IS IT.
IF HE HADN'T HAVE HAD THAT HIS DAUGHTER AT THE END OF OUR FILM PINCHES HER FINGERS TOGETHER, RASHEDA, DOES, AND SAYS BOXING WAS ONLY THAT MUCH.
HE COULD HAVE BEEN A SIMPLE CARPENTER.
THIS.E HAPPENED TO FALL INTO THERE WAS SOMETHING I THINK GREAT ABOUT THE LIBERATING IDEA THAT BLACK AND WHITE COULD BE DOING IT TOGETHER IN THE LOUISVILLE IN WHICH HE HAD TO LOOK THROUGH A CHAIN LINK FENCE AT THE AMUSEMENT PARK THAT WAS FOR WHITES ONLY.
SO I THINK THAT THERE IS SOMETHING TRANSFORMING.
THIS IS A TICKET UP AND OUT.
AND WHAT HAPPENS HERE IS THIS IS THE FIRST MOMENT IN WHICH HE SEES THE POSSIBILITY OF BEING ABLE TO ESCAPE THE SPECIFIC GRAVITY OF LOUISVILLE, THE SPECIFIC GRAVITY OF JIM CROW.
THE SPECIFIC GRAVITY OF THE HATRED THAT HAD KILLED EMMETT TILL AND WHOSE MOTHER COURAGEOUSLY LEFT THE CASKET OPEN TO SHOW HIS BRUTALIZED AND TORTURED BODY TO THE WORLD AND HE WASN'T THAT MUCH, YOU KNOW, OLDER THAN MOHAMMED ALI AND A PROFOUND EFFECT AND I THINK HE JUST SAID THIS IS HOW I'M GOING TO DO IT.
AND THEN HE DID IT.
AND VERY QUICKLY ON CHRISTIANE, ABSURDLY, HE SAID I'M GOING TO BE THE GREATEST, AND WAS.
WHERE DID HE GET THAT CONFIDENCE FROM?
HIS MOTHER WAS THE SOFTER OF THE PARENT, ODESSA, HIS FATHER WAS MUCH MORE HARD LINE AND, YOU KNOW, COULD BE A LITTLE BIT VIOLENT I THINK.
AND WAS ALSO DISAPPOINTED THIS HIS OWN LIFE BY, YOU KNOW, COMING AFOUL OF JIM CROW.
YOU KNOW, BEING DENIED THE OPPORTUNITIES BECAUSE OF THAT.
THAT'S RIGHT.
HIS MOTHER HAD A CAPACIOUS HEART AND WAS KNOWN FOR THAT HEART AROUND THE NEIGHBORHOOD.
HIS FATHER WAS AN ANGRY MAN.
HE WAS A RACE MAN.
HE WAS VERY MUCH OF A PERSONALITY.
AND PEOPLE KNEW HIM.
AND HE RALED AGAINST THE INJUSTICE OF THE TIME.
AND SOMEHOW HIS SON INHERITED BOTH OF THOSE CHARACTERISTICS OF BOTH PARENTS.
BUT HE ALSO INHERITED SOMETHING ELSE.
HE ALSO HAD A KIND OF SUPREME INNER CONFIDENCE.
AND YET HE DRANK IN BOTH THE MOTHER'S LESSON I THINK ABOUT LOVE JUST BY EXAMPLE.
AND SAW HIS FATHER'S BITTERNESS AND REALIZED HE NEEDED TO FIND SOME SYSTEM, SOME WAY, SOME SECURITY, SOME FIRM GROUND IN WHICH HE COULD PROCEED WITH THE REST OF HIS LIFE.
KEN, I WAS SURPRISED.
I DIDN'T KNOW THIS.
I'M SURE EVERYBODY ELSE WHO'S DONE A DEEP DIVE KNOWS, OR MAYBE NOT, THAT IT WAS A GROUP OF WHITE BUSINESSMEN IN LOUISVILLE, KENTUCKY WHO TOOK HIM UNDER THEIR WING, RIGHT, AND FINANCES, IS THAT CORRECT?
THIS IS ONE OF THE MOST AMAZING THINGS.
BY THIS TIME ITS BEEN AT LEAST A COUPLE DECADE WHERE IS THE MOBHT CONNECTIONS TO BOXING.
AND IN FACT SONNY LISTON WHO HE WILL BEAT TO GAIN THE CHAMPIONSHIP HAD MOB CONNECTIONS.
WHEN HE WINS THE GOLD MEDAL IN THE 1960 OLYMPICS AND CAME HOME AS THE LOCAL KID WHO MAID GOOD.
THE CITY FATHERS SAY WE HAVE TO PROTECT HIM.
HE'S A WONDERFUL PERSON, A GREAT PERSONALITY.
BUT WE HAVE TO PROTECT HIM.
AND THEY HAD ALREADY FIGURED OUT WHO THIS GUY WAS THAT THEY HAD.
THIS KIND OF -- WHO WAS GOING TO BE EVENTUALLY A KIND OF AVATAR, AN APOSTLE OF LOVE ACROSS THE WORLD.
-- SAID, CASSIUS CLAY, HIS BIRTH NAME, IS A BLAST FURNACE OF RACIAL PRIDE.
AND IT WAS JUST -- IT IS JUST SO OBVIOUS THROUGHOUT HIS WHOLE LIFE.
AND HE ACTUALLY GAVE HIM THAT NAME MOHAMMED ALI.
AND HE USED THE NAME AS THE GAUNTLET, AS A CHALLENGE TO EVERYBODY.
BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY HE SAID HE WAS READY TO DIE, TO BE IMPRISONED TO BE KILLED FOR HIS FAITH THAT.
SHOWED UP IN VIETNAM.
REFUSING TO GO TO THE DRAFT AND THE REST OF IT.
AND HIS -- HIS RELENTLESS DRIVE TO STAY TRUE TO HIS BELIEVES TRUMPED EVERYTHING.
AND YET IT BROUGHT YOU A LOT OF HATE ALSO.
IT DID.
AND I THINK HERE IS THE KEY THING.
YOU BROUGHT UP EARLIER POLITICS.
I THINK THAT WHEN -- I MEAN FIRST OF ALL WE HAVE TO UNWIND A LITTLE BIT.
THIS IS A TEENAGER LOOKING FOR SOME FOUNDATION IN HIS LIFE.
HE -- HE HEARS IT.
HE THINKS HE HEARS IT IN THE MESSAGE OF THE NATION OF ISLAM.
DO FOR SELF.
IT IS THE OPPOSITE OF CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT WHICH IS ABOUT INTEGRATION.
AND IT IS -- THOSE ARE TROPES THAT ARE BECOMING FOR MANY AFRICAN AMERICAN, PARTICULARLY IN THE NORTH, A KIND OF -- THAT THERE IS AN IMPATIENCE DEVELOPING.
SO HE FINDS IN THE IDEOLOGY OF THE NATION OF ISLAM SOME REAL SURE FOUNDATION AND ELIJAH MOHAMMED COMES A FATHER FIGURE AND WHEN THERE IS THE STRUGGLE OVER MALCOLM X WHOM THEY HAVE EXPELLED AND THEY KNOW HOW CLOS.
THEY GIVE HIM THIS NAME AND IN A WAY IT SORT OF BINDS THEM.
A BRILLIANT POLITICAL STROKE.
BUT IF YOU GO ON LATER, HE REFUSES INDUCTION INTO THE VIETNAM WAR.
AND HE SAYS HE FACED MACHINE GUNFIRE RATHER THAN DO THIS.
MID-60s.LEM IS WE'RE IN THE THIS IS AN ACT OF FAITH.
A FAITH-BASED DECISION ON HIS PART.
BUT WEN WE SEE A BLACK MAN DEFYING THE VIETNAM WAR, WE THINK IT IS POLITICAL, THAT HE'S GIVING THE MIDDLE FINGER TO THE UNITED STATES.
SO EVEN WHEN THE PROSECUTORS RECOMMEND AD LOWER SENTENCE, THE JUDGE THREW THE BOOK AT HIM ANDF FIVE YEARS IN JAIL.
BUT WE MISUNDERSTOOD THE STORY.
WE BECAUSE HE WAS A BLACK MAN IN AMERICA, IT BECAME A POLITICAL DECISION.
FOR HIM IT WAS A SPIRITUAL DECISION AND IN FACT ELIJAH MUHAMAD HAD DONE THE SAME THING THIS WORLD WAR II.
HE HAD GONE TO JAIL RATHER THAN COMPROMISE HIS RELIGIOUS BELIEFS.
NOW, THE SUPREME COURT HAD ALREADY MADE EXCEPTIONS FOR OTHER PEOPLE FOR CONSCIENCE OBJECTORS LIKE JEHOVAHS WITNESS.
BUT THEY WEREN'T WILLING TO EXTEND TO THE NATION OF ISLAM.
THEY EVENTUALLY LET MOHAMMED ALI OUT OF HIS PRISON SENTENCE BUT ON A MERE TECHNICALITY.
AND THE AMAZING THING CHRISTIANE I FEEL IS ONE OF MY FAVORITE MOMENTS IN THE FILM IS HERE IS A GUY WHO WEN THE SUPREME COURT VOTES 8-0 ON A TECHNICALITY TO ERASE THE PRISON SENTENCE AND LET HIM GO, SOMEBODY SHOVES A MICROPHONE IN HIS FACE AND SAYS WHAT DO YOU FEEL ABOUT THE SYSTEM?
AND HE COULD HAVE --
HOLD THAT THOUGHT.
HOLD THAT THOUGHT KEN.
I'M GOING TO PLAY.
-- SORRY.
-- THAT YOU LOVE SO MUCH.
HERE IT IS.
-- ON THE SOUTH SIDE AND IN THE GROCERY STORE.
AND GROCERY OWNER CAME OUT AND GRABBED ME, HUGGED ME WITH TEARS IN HIS EYES.
LITTLE BLACK FELLA TOLD ME YOU'VE JUST BEEN VINDICATED, ALL EIGHT JUDGES VOTED IN YOUR FAVOR.
AND HE JUST HUGGED YOU AND SQUEEZED YOU.
HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT YOURSY.
I DON'T KNOW.
WHO WILL BE ASSASSINATED TONIGHT.
YOU KNOW, WHO WILL BE ENSLAVED OR MISTREATED, DEPRIVED OF SOME OTHER JUSTICE OR INEQUALITY.
SO I CAN'T SAY NOTHING.
ALL I CAN TALK ABOUT IS MY CASE.
AND I'M THANKFUL THE COURSE BELIEVES IN THIS CASE.Y OF MY
IT IS INCREDIBLE THAT.
AND OF COURSE IN THE INTERIM HE HAD LOST HIS TITLES.
HE HAD LOST SOME, YOU KNOW, VALUABLE PRACTICE AND BOXING TIME.
AND HE HAD A HARD TIME STRUGGLING TO GET BACK TO BE THE GREATEST AFTERWARDS.
YES, SO THIS IS THREE AND A HALF YEARS AT THE HEIGHT OF HIS ATHLETIC ABILITIES THAT ARE TAKEN AWAY FROM HIM.
AND THEN THIS MOMENT OF TRIUMPH.
HE'S NOT THINKING ABOUT HIMSELF.
HE'S NOT GLOATING AS HE VERY OFTEN DID.
HE'S NOT RECITING POETRY.
HE'S NOT DANCING UP AND DOWN AND TRASH TALKING THE MAN.
HE'S THINKING ABOUT ALL THE PEOPLE THAT HAVE GONE BACK IN THE LAST 350 YEARS OF INJUSTICE TO BLACK PEOPLE ON THE NORTH AMERICAN CONTINENT.
AND HE'S THINKING AHEAD TOO TO NAMES THAT HE DOESN'T KNOW THATE LIKE RODNEY KING AND TRAYVON MARTIN AND TAMIR RICE, 11 YEARS OLD.
AND BREONNA TAYLOR AND GEORGE FLOYD AND I'M SORRY TO SAY HUNDREDS AND THOUSANDS OF OTHERS NAMES.
HIM.THAT'S THE DIFFERENCE WITH HE'S SERVING SOMETHING MUCH BIGGER THAN HIS OWN LIFE.
HE'S SERVING MUCH BIGGER THAN HIS OWN PROFESSION.
HE'S SERVING SOMETHING MUCH BIGGER THAN THE LOSS OF THE CRITICAL -- THE CRITICAL LOSS OF THREE AND A HALF YEARS AND HE'S DETERMINED NOW TO COME BACK AND THE FACT THAT HE DOES AND THEN DOES AGAIN, IT IS JUST -- IT'S -- IT DEFIES IMAGINATION.
IT IS NOT THE WAY STORIES GO.
IN THE UNITED STATES.
IT IS INCREDIBLE.
AND I JUST WANT TO ASK YOU ONE HISTORIAN YOU JUST MENTIONED ALL THE NAMES OF THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN KILLED IN RECENT TIMES.
THE INNOCENTS.
AND WE'VE JUST -- WE'VE JUST DISCUSSED THE RISKS THAT ALI TOOK FOR THE -- YOU KNOW, FOR THE RIGHTS OF THE BLACK PEOPLE IN AMERICA.
AND YOU HAVE GOT NOW ALL THESE DECADES LATER A COLIN KAEPERNICK WHO ALL HE DID WAS TAKE A KNEE AND WAS SO VILIFIED AND HIS CAREER AND HIS LIVELIHOOD PUT COMPLETELY AT RISK.
ALL THESE DECADES LATER IT SEEMS LIKE WE'RE GOING BACKWARDS TO BEFORE ALI.
NOT FORWARDS.
DO YOU SEE IT THAT WAY?
YOU KNOW, I SEE THE FACT THAT THE STUDY OF HISTORY IS THE STUDY OF HUMAN NATURE.
AND HUMAN NATURE DOESN'T CHANGE.
AND WE THINK THAT HISTORY REREPEATS ITSELF.
IT NEVER DOES.
MARK TWAIN IS SUPPOSED TO HAVE SAID HISTORY DOESN'T REPEAT ITSELF BUT IT RIMES.
COLIN KAEPERNICK BY THE WAY HAS.
SO IT IS NOT THE SAME AS HAVING TO DIP INTO YOUR WIVES COLLEGE SAVINGS.
HE DIDN'T DISAPPEAR THE WAY SMITH AND CARLOS WHO RAISED THEIR FIST AT THE '68 OLYMPICS.
MOHAMMED ALI RISKED ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING AND WAS WILLING TO LOSE EVERYTHING IN AN ACT OF COURAGE THAT IS MIND BOGGLING TODAY.
AND IT IS WONDERFUL THAT WE HAVE ATHLETES SPEAKING OUT LIKE COLIN KAEPERNICK AND LeBRON JAMES AND OTHERS EVEN IN THE FACE OF THE RIDICULOUS 'SHUT UP AND DRIBBLE' THAT PEOPLE ARE SUGGESTING THEY DO.
THOSE WHO SAY THAT HAVEN'T READ THE CONSTITUTION OR THE BILL OF RIGHTS.
BUT I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT TO KNOW THAT WHEN THEY ARE INSPIRED TO MAKE THESE CHANGE, THEY ARE NOT RISKING WHAT THEIR -- THE PERSON WHO IS THE SOURCE OF THEIR INSPIRATION.
MOHAMMED ALI AND MAYBE A GENERATION EARLIER, JACKIE ROBINSON, THE SUBJECT OF ANOTHER FILM, BOTH DESCRIBED A NEW BLACK MASCULINITY, A NEW BLACK COURAGE FOR THE AGE WHICH THEY LIVE.
BOTH, JACKIE ROBINSON, IN PARTICULARLY MOHAMMED ALI SPEAK US TO ENDURINGLY ABOUT WHAT IT MEANS TO FACE THINGS AND TO DO SO IN SUCH A TRANSCENDENT WAY, THAT WHEN HE DIES, THE MOST BELOVED PERSON ON THE PLANET, YOU KNOW, COUNTRIES AROUND THE WORLD IN PAKISTAN AND MALAYSIA, IN SAHARAN AFRICA AND SUBSAHARAN A AFRICA, INDEED ALL OVER THE WORLD RESPECT HIM BECAUSE HE SPOKE NOT JUST TO BLACK PEOPLE BUT TO ANYBODY WHO FELT THAT THEY HAD THE BOOT OF A MAN ON THEM.
AND TO ANYONE WHO ASPIRED TO A MUCH MORE JUST WORLD.
WHAT A LOVELY WAY TO END.
INDEED.NS, THANK YOU SO MUCH AND OF COURSE THE FILM, YOUR FILM, START NEXT WEEK ON PBS.
THANK YOU CHRISTIANE.
> SO THE CONVERSATION CONTINUES AND BROADENS OUT IN THE WORLD OF TENNIS.
WHICH HAS BEEN ROCKED BY THE ARRIVAL OF A NEW GENERATION OF STARS.
CHIEF AMONGST THEM IS THE BRITISH U.S. OPEN CHAMPION EMMA RADACANU.
THE 18 YEAR OLD CAME FROM LITERALLY NOWHERE TO WIN THE TOURNAMENT IN STRAIGHT SETS THIS YEAR.
ALEX THOMAS HAS THIS REPORT ON HER INCREDIBLE RISE.
RADACANU'S DAD IS FROM ROMANIA AND HER MOM WAS RAISED IN CHINA.
EMMA WAS BORN IN CANADA AND THEN MOVED TO THE UK WHEN SHE WAS 2.
IT IS A GLOBAL SPORTING SUCCESS STORY SPANNING THREE DIFFERENT CONTINENTS THAT BEGAN IN UNREMARKABLE FASHION.
THIS IS HER FIRST SCHOOL IN THE SOUTHEAST LONDON SUBURB OF BROMLEY.
IT IS NOT A SPECIALIST SPORTS ACADEMY FOR GIFTED ATHLETES.
IT IS JUST AN ELEMENTARY OR PRIMARY SCHOOL RUN BY THE LOCAL AUTHORITY.
EMMA WAS FIVE WHEN SHE FIRST PICKED UP A TENNIS RACKET AND HER PARENTS TOOK HER TO A LOCAL CLUB TO SEE IF SHE HAD A TALENT.
HER FIRST COACH RENS WHAT MARKED HER OUT.
WORK RATE, COMMITMENT.
ALWAYS VERY DISCIPLINED.
I KNOW SOUNDS CRAZE WHEN SHE'S SIX SHE'S DISCIPLINED AND COMMITTED.
SHE MADE EVERY TRAINING SESSION.
YOU NEVER HAD TO ASK HER TO WORK HARD.
AND LISTENED REALLY WELL AND MOST THINGS SHE DID AT FIRST ASKING.
AND YOU COULD BET NEXT TIME YOU DID SEE HER SHE COULD DO WHATEVER SHE COULDN'T IN THE SESSION BEFORE.
Reporter: RADACANU WAS A 450/1 OUTSIDER TO GET INTO THE U.S. OPEN AND YET WON THE EVENT WITHOUT DROPPING A SINGLE SET.
JUDGING FROM CELEBRATIONS AT THE CLUB, RADACANU IS ALREADY INSPIRING YOUNGSTERS HOPING TO FOLLOW IN HER FOOT STEPS.
WHAT DO YOU LIKE ABOUT TENNIS?
IT'S WHERE SHE DOES REALLY GOOD SHOTS AND SHE NEVER GIVES UP.
WHEN YOU SEE HER WIN A BIG TOURNAMENT LIKE, THAT DOES IT INSPIRE YOU.
YEAH.
WOULD YOU LIKE TO DO WHAT EMMA DOES?
YEAH.
RADACANU STARTED THE YEAR ADS A TEENAGE STUDENT RANKLED 450th IN THE WORLD WHO HAD NEVER PLAYED IN A GRAND SLAM TOURNAMENT BEFORE.
NOW SHE'S THE NEXT BIG THING IN WOMEN'S TENNIS WITH MORE THAN 1.6 MILLION INSTAGRAM FOLLOWERS AND POTENTIAL TO WIN TENS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS A YEAR.
UP SLIDE IN TERMS OF COMMERCIAL SPONSORSHIP IS TREMENDOUS.
SHE COMES FROM A BIG MARKET DOMESTICALLY IN THE UK AND NUMBERS THROWN AROUND 20 MILLION POUNDS, 30 MILLION DOLLARS, ALREADY IN TERMS OF WHAT SHE MIGHT BE ABLE TO AMASS.
TENNIS COMMENT COMMENTATOR THERE.
TENNIS CAN BE A HARD AND IT IS A SOLITARY SPORT SO IT IS NO WONDER THAT CENTER COURT HAS BECOME A BEACON FOR VITAL CONVERSATIONS AROUND MENTAL HEALTH.
AWARENESS HAS BEEN SPIKING AFTER OUT OF TOURNAMENTS TO CONCENTRATE ON HER EMOTIONAL RECOVERY.
AT THE BILLIE JEAN KING NATIONAL TENNIS CENTER IN NEW YORK, HER WORDS ARE EMBLAZENED ON THE WALLS.
PRESSURE IS A PRIVILEGE SHE SAID.
AND SOMEONE WHO KNOWS ALL ABOUT THE PRESSURES OF THE GAME, SEVEN-TIME SINGLES GRAND SLAM WINNER AND FORMER WORLD NUMBER ONE, JOHN McENROE WHOSE CAREER HAS TAKEN AN UNEXPECTED TURN INTO VOICE ACTING RIGHT NOW WHERE HE'S PLAYING THE NARRATOR FOR THE HIT NETFLIX SERIES 'NEVER HAVE I EVER' AND HE'S JOINING ME NOW TO TALK ABOUT ALL OF THIS ON-COURT ACTIVITY.
JOHN McENROE, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
DO YOU THINK THE RADACANU/FERNANDEZ FINAL AND THE RESULTS AND THE HYPE AROUND IT IS HOW SIGNIFICANT FOR NOT JUST WOMEN'S TENNIS BUT WOMEN'S SPORT?
WELL IT IS DIFFICULT TO SAY.
TO THE UNEXPECTED.
NEVER THOUGHT IT WOULD HAPPEN IN MY LIFE TO SEE AN 18 AND 19 YEA.
THE LAST TWO TEENAGERS ERROR THAT WERE THERE FOR SERENA WILLIAMS AND MARTINA HINGIS IN THE FINAL IN '99.
SO THIS DOESN'T HAPPEN VERY OFTEN.
SIGNIFICANCE?
I THINK THE WOMEN'S GAME IS MORE OPEN THAN ITS EVER BEEN.
SO THAT'S A SIGN A LOT MORE PLAYERS BELIEVE THEY HAVE A CHANCE.
WHEN I WATCHED EMMA AT WIMBLEDON AND SHE WALKED OFF THE COURT WITH AN ANXIETY ATTACK AND DIDN'T RETURN, DID NOT EXPECT THIS.
I CAN'T IMAGINE ANYONE IN HER CAMP EXPECTED THIS.
AND TO WIN THE U.S. OPEN WITHOU.
SHE'S A TREMENDOUS ATHLETE.
SHE SEEMS LIKE A GREAT KID.
OBVIOUSLY WITH WHAT NAOMI'S BEEN TALKING ABOUT.
SHE'S NOT THE FIRST PERSON THAT'S DEALT WITH PRESSURE IN SPORTS AND HAVE TROUBLE HANDLING IT.
SHE'S BEEN MORE OUTSPOKEN.
AND UNFORTUNATELY I THINK THEY ARE GOING TO BE WATCHING HER EVEN MORE CAREFULLY.
BUT IN THE NEXT COUPLE YEARS IT IS GOING TO BE VERY INTERESTING TO SEE HOW THESE TWO YOUNGSTERS, FERNANDEZ I'VE SEEN FOR A COUPLE YEARS.
GREAT TALENT.
RADACANU SEEMS LIKE SHE'S HANDLING IT TREMENDOUSLY WELL.
I DON'T KNOW HOW SHE TURNED IT AROUND IN THE LAST COUPLE MONTHS BUT I'M SURE A LOT OF PEOPLE WOULD LIKE TOE FIND OUT.
THE SECRET SAUCE.
WELL YOU HEARD WHAT HER COACH SAID.
AND SHE HERSELF HAS SAID AFTER WIMBLEDON SHE JUST WENT INTO THE ZONE AND JUST FOCUSED 100 PERCENT.
SO LET ME ASK YOU.
BECAUSE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE IMPACT OF SPORTS ON SOCIETY IN GENERAL AND TENNIS AND OBVIOUSLY GYMNASTICS WITH SIMONE BILES AND OTHER SPORTS HAVE REALLY FOCUSEL ON THE MENTAL HEALTH ISSUE.
SO YOU TALKED ABOUT WIMBLEDON.
AND YOU DID IN FACT -- I DON'T KNOW IF WHETHER YOU WERE KRIS CRITICIZING BUT YOU SAID ABOUT RADACANU IT APPEARS IT JUST GOT A LITTLE TOO MUCH.
I MEANT EXACTLY WHAT I SAID.
I TRIED TO RELATE IT TO A SMALL WAY IN MY EXPERIENCE WHEN I FIRST WENT TO WIMBLEDON, ALSO AT 18, AND MANAGED TO QUALIFY LIKE EMMA DID.
GET THROUGH TO THE SEMIS.
SHE DID BETTER THAN I DID.
I PLAYED JIMMY CONORS.
I HADN'T BEEN ON THE CENTER COURT.
AND I REMEMBER MY LEGS SHAKING AND, YOU KNOW, FEELING TOO LATE OVERWHELMED BY THE EXPERIENCE AND ALMOST HAPPY I DIDN'T WIN AND SUBSEQUENTLY WENT TO STANFORD FOR A YEAR AND HAD SOME TIME TO SORT OF REGROUP MENTALLY AND PREPARE FOR THE RIGORS OF THE TOUR.
THERE ARE A LOT OF GREAT UPSIDES BUT THERE IS ALSO PRESSURE YOU PUT ON YOURSELF AND EXPECTATIONS THAT OTHERS PUT ON YOU.
SO COMPARED TO LOT OF OTHER THINGS, CHRISTIANE, THAT I'VE SAID IN THE PAST, I MEAN THAT WAS ABOUT TO ME AS VANILLA AS THEY COME.
I WAS VERY SUPPORTIVE OF HER, I THOUGHT, AT THE TIME.
YOU KNOW THE PAPERS OVER IN ENGLAND.
SOMETIMES THEY LIKE MAKE A DEAL ME OUT OF TO ME, NOTHING.
MORE IMPORTANTLY THAN WHAT I SAID IS HOW SHE HANDLED IT MOVING FORWARD.
BECAUSE I'M SURE THERE WAS LOT OF CONCERN AND THE BRITISH TENNIS ASSOCIATION, ALONG WITH PEOPLE AND HER FAMILY AND PEOPLE THAT WORK WITH HER, HOW IS SHE GOING TO BE ABLE TO HANDLE THIS, SORT OF, NEWFOUND FAME.
I DON'T THINK YOU COULD POSSIBLY DO IT ANY BETTER THAN SHE DID IT.
WIN THE U.S. OPEN?
ARE YOU KIDDING ME?
THAT'S INSANE.
NOW THERE IS GOING TO BE OBVIOUSLY A LOT MORE FOCUS ON HER.
THAT'S INCREDIBLE.
IF BILLIE JEAN KING SAYS PRESSURE IS A PRIVILEGE, I BELIEVE HER.
SHE'S DONE MORE FOR WOMEN'S GENERAL THAN ANYONE IN THE LAST 100 YEARS.
YOU KNOW, I HAVE FOUR DAUGHTERS OF MY OWN.
I KNOW WHEN THEY WERE GROWING UP, THEY FELT LIKE THEY WERE MORE ON EQUAL FOOTING WITH THE YOUNG BOYS THAN THEY EVER HAVE BEEN.
WHEN YOU LOOK AT TENNIS AND EQUAL PRIZE MONEY.
I THINK YOU ARE GETTING THE BEST OF THE BEST IN TERMS OF ATHLETES AND GIRLS ARE HAVING A BETTER CHANCE THAN THEY EVER HAD IN THE PAST.
SO OF COURSE, PRESSURE COMES WITH THAT.
EXPECTATION COMES WITH THAT.
-- LOT MORE MOVING FORWARD.
YEAH, AND I JUST THINK THIS CONVERSATION ON MENTAL HEALTH IS SO PREVALENT.
AND ITS BEEN SO, YOU KNOW, FRONT AND CENTER OVER THE LAST, YOU KNOW, CERTAINLY 18 MONTHS OF COVID, BLACK LIVES MATTER AND EVERYTHING THAT IS GOING ON.
AND YOU ARE PERFECTLY POSITIONED TO TALK ABOUT THIS HAVING GONE THROUGH EVERYTHING THAT YOU DID.
I GUESS I WANT TO KNOW, YOU KNOW, YOU SAID YOU WANT TO STANFORD.
YOU KNOW, YOUR LEGS WERE SHAKING AT 18 WHEN YOU WALKED ON TO FACE JIMMY CONORS.
DID YOU EVER GET, EITHER FROM YOUR PARENTS AS VENUS WILLIAMS WHEN SHE WAS 14 HER MOTHER SAID TAKE CARE OF YOUR MENTAL HEALTH AS WELL AS YOUR PHYSICAL HEALTH.
DID YOU EVER GET ANY ADVICE, SUPPORT ABOUT TAKING CARE OF YOUR MENTAL HEALTH?
BECAUSE YOU WERE CONSIDERED AN INTUITIVE BRILLIANT PLAYER, I JUST WONDER WHETHER YOU DID.
YOU KNOW, YOU'RE PROBABLY NOT THE FIRST PERSON THAT ASKED.
YOU KNOW, THERE'S A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT SAY, WELL, YOU KNOW, HE DID? WHY DID HE ACT THE WAY TREATED HIM?AY HIS PARENTS WAS IT HIS UPBRINGING?
IS HE JUST A JERK ON THE COURT?? ANSWER MYSELF.DN'T KNOW THE GUYS WHEN I GREW UP WEREN'T SUPPOSED TO CRY, SO IN AWAY TURNED THAT FEAR INTO ANGER AND SOMETIMES THAT CAME OFF A DIFFERENT WAY THAN I WANTED IT TO.
OF COURSE I USED TO TELL MY STORY ABOUT MY LATE GREAT DAD HE'D SAY TO ME ALL THE TIME, JOHN YOU DON'T NEED TO YELL AT THE UMPIRE, YOU ARE BETTER THAN THEM.
BUT THE WAY HE SID IT WAS LIKE THEM.YOU ARE A LOT BETTER THAN YOU DON'T NEED TO YELL AT THE UMPIRES.
BUT THAT SEEMED NORMAL TO ME.
I GREW UP IN NEW YORK CITY.
A VERY LOUD ATMOSPHERE.
I WAS SHOCKED HOW QUIET IT WAS WHEN I FIRST WENT TO WIMBLEDON THE FIRST TIME.
SO EVERYONE HAS THEIR METHODS.
ITEM SITTING HERE TALKING TO YOU AT MY TENNIS ACADEMY.
I BELIEVE KIDS HAVE TO BE NURTURED.
I'M A BIG BELIEVER IN HOME SCHOOLING.
I BELIEVE KIDS SHOULD BE BROUGHT ALONG MORE SLOWLY.
MAYBE EVEN PLAY OTHER SPORTS FO.
I THINK COLLEGE, GOD FORBID GO TO COLLEGE, I THINK THAT WAY THEY CAN EDUCATE THEMSELVES AND NOT BE OVERWHELMED BY WHAT MAY OR MAY NOT HAPPEN TO THEM IN TH.
AND IF SOMETHING BIG DOES HAPPEN, BETTER ABLE TO HANDLE IT IT.
NOW THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS.
OBVIOUSLY RADACANU IS INCREDIBLY AT 18.
SHE'S NOT GOING TO GO TO COLLEG.
SHE'S GOING MAKE TENS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS WHETHER SHE WINS ANOTHER MATCH OR NOT.
OSAKA WAS SOMEONE WHO WAS VERY SHY AND INTROVERTED.
FIRST TIME I MET HER.
I THINK HE CONTINUES TO BE THAT WAY NOW.
SHE CAME OUT LAST YEAR AND MADEN WEARING THE MASK.
IT WAS A GREAT THING.
ESPECIALLY DURING THIS PANDEMIC, WHICH HAS BEEN SO TOUGH FOR SO MANY PEOPLE.
TENNIS.WAS A GREAT BOOST FOR NOW ALL OF A SUDDEN MORE ATTENTION IS ON HER.
I HOPE TO GOD SHE CAN HANDLE IT BECAUSE WE NEED HER AROUND FOR ANOTHER 10 YEARS.
BUT THERE IS ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO BE PEOPLE TO HELP WITH THAT PROCESS.
I HAD A NUMBER OF PEOPLE OVER THE YEARS, PSYCHOLOGIST, PSYCHIATRIST, COURT APPOINTED, CHRISTIANE, I MAID SAY THAT I HAD TO DEAL WITH.
BUT MOSTLY ON MY OWN VOLITION TRYING TO FIGURE A WAY TOO HANDLE THIS BETTER.
I TOOK SIX MONTHS OFF WHEN I WAS 26, 27 HAD MY FIRST KID, GROW UP AND TRY TO FIGURE HOW TO BETTER HANDLE IT.
AND.
AND IT IS NOT EASY.
I UNDERSTAND THAT.
I FEEL FOR THESE KIDS.
I'VE GOT SIX KIDS OF MY OWN.
SO I WANT THE BEST FOR THEM.
CAN I JUST PLAY, BECAUSE ONE OF THE OTHER ADDED INGREDIENTS IS THIS, YOU KNOW, SORT OF, RULE THAT EVERY TENNIS PLAYER WIN OR LOSE HAS TO GO AT A CERTAIN LEVEL OF THE TOURNAMENT BEFORE A BANK OF PRESS.
AND SOME, LOT OF THEM DON'T LIKE IT BUT THEY HAVE TO DO IT.
SO YOU SAID, I WANT TO PLAY WHAT YOU SAID ABOUT THAT.
YOU KNOW, BACK IN 1983.
AND THEN I'M GOING TO ALSO PLAY WHAT OSAKA OBVIOUSLY HAS SAID ABOUT THAT.
BECAUSE THAT IS THE CENTER OF HER SORT OF, YOU KNOW, DESIRE T.
WHAT I REGRET IS THAT I COME TO PLACES LIKE THIS AND HAVE TO DEAL WITH PEOPLE LIKE YOU.
I FEEL LIKE FOR ME, RECENTLY, UMM, LIKE, WHEN I WIN I DON'T FEEL HAPPY.
I FEEL MORE LIKE A RELIEF.
AND THEN WHEN I LOSE I FEEL VERY SAD.
AND I DON'T -- I DON'T THINK THAT'S NORMAL.
AND I DIDN'T REALLY WANT TO CRY.
> HOW MUCH PRESSURE IS THAT ACTUAL PRESS CONFERENCE?
AND DO YOU THINK IT IS TIME TO CHANGE THE IDEA OF MAKING THAT OBLIGATORY?
IT IS A GREAT QUESTION.
I'M NOT SURE I KNOW THE ANSWER TO THAT.
OBVIOUSLY IN MY DAY WE DIDN'T HAVE SOCIAL MEDIA, A WAY TO GET IN TOUCH WITH FANS AND OTHER PEOPLE BY JUST PUTTING SOMETHING ON INSTAGRAM.
SO THAT IS SOMETHING I'M NOT ON SOCIAL MEDIA.
I THINK I MIGHT BE IN JAIL IF I WAS.
SO I GOT TO STAY AWAY FROM THAT.
BUT AS FAR AS NAOMI IS CONCERNED, I FEEL LIKE SHE WAS HAVING TROUBLE HANDLING WHAT WAS GOING ON IN TERMS OF THE OVERWHELMING AMOUNT OF ATTENTION SHE WAS GETTING SO SHE CHOSE TO GO TO THE FRENCH OPEN, SAY I DON'T WANT TO DO ANY PRESS.
I GET IT.
LOT OF THE TIMES THE PRESS PEOPLE THAT I WAS REFERRING TO 1983 DON'T GIVE A DAMN ABOUT THE TENNIS MATCH.
THEY ARE JUST LOOKING TO CAUSE SOME TROUBLE, GET A HEADLINE OF SOME KIND.
AND THOSE PEOPLE I THINK SHOULDN'T BE AROUND THERE.
BUT THAT IS TOUGH TO NAVIGATE TOO.
AS FAR AS NAOMI WENT, I THOUGHT IT WAS INTERESTING WHEN SHE FIRST DID IT.
AND THEN THEY SAID OH THEY ARE GOING TO FINE YOU $15,000 A MATCH AND SHE SAID FINE, GIVE IT TO CHARITY.
GREAT.
BUT THEN THE LOSE-LOSE WAS WHEN THE POWERS THAT BE IN TENNIS DECIDED, THEY SAID THEY MAY DEFAULT HER.
I THINK THAT WAS JUST A REALLY STUPID DECISION THAT WAS MADE BY WHOEVER -- WHATEVER FEDERATION IT WAS FOR A COMBINATION OF FEDERATIONS.
THAT CAUSED OSAKA TO PULL OUT OF THE FRENCH, NOT PLAY WIMBLEDON AND STILL FEEL THIS SORT OF UNCOMFORTABLE, NOT BEING ABLE TO HANDLE WHAT'S GOING ON AROUND HERE.
LISTEN, MOST ATHLETES -- I KNOW I CAN RELATE TO THAT, WHERE YOU FEEL MORE OF A SENSE OF RELIEF WHEN YOU WIN AND NOT THE JOY THAT YOU WOULD LIKE TO FEEL.
AND THEN YOU FEEL LIKE YOU ARE NOT A VERY GOOD PERSON WHEN YOU LOSE.
ANY PSYCHOLOGIST, ANY PSYCHIATRIST WOULD TELL YOU THAT WHAT YOU DO ON A TENNIS COURT SHOULDN'T BE MAKING YOU FEEL HOW YOU ARE AS A PERSON.
THERE SHOULDN'T BE A CONNECTION.
BUT IN A LOT OF CASE, ONE ON ONE GAME.NIS WHICH IS A YOU DON'T HAVE TEAMMATES AROUND.
THAT COMES INTO PLAY.
AND RARE IS THE PERSON LIKE ROGER FEDERER WHO ABSOLUTELY SEEMS TO LOVE IT, MORE NORMAL.
AS THE FRUSTRATION YOU SEE FROM MOST PLAYERS, INCLUDING MYSELF.
INCLUDING PETE SAMPRAS WHEN HE PLAYED.
INCLUDING EVEN THE GREAT RAFAEL NADAL WHO PLAYED WITH SOME ANGST WHEN HE'S OUT THERE GIVING 110%. SO IT IS NOT EASY.
US OLDER PLAYERS, MEN AND WOMEN, ARE THERE FOR -- TO TRY TO SUPPORT THE YOUNGER GENERATION BECAUSE TENNIS COULD CERTAINLY USE A BOOST IN THE STATES.
IT COULD CERTAINLY USE A BOOST IN GREAT BRITAIN.
AND IT JUST GOT ONE.
SO THEY SHOULD BE ABSOLUTELY OVERJOYED THAT THIS IS HAPPENING.
ITS BEEN SINCE 1977.
VIRGINIA WADE, WHO PLAYS AT MY CLUB ALL THE TIME, WON IT.
FACT THAT DJOKOVIC WAS GOING FOR THE GRAND SLAM.
PEOPLE ARE TALKING ABOUT IT.
WE HAVE TO MAKE THE GAME MORE ACCESSIBLE AND AFFORDABLE.
BUT WE ALSO HAVE TO NURTURE THESE KIDS WHEN THEY ARE GROWIN.
CAN I ASK YOU ABOUT WHAT YOU?
YOU HAVE GONE INTO VOICE ACTING.
YOU'RE DOING THE VOICE FOR 'NEVER HAVE I EVER.'
CARE, LOST HER DAD.AN ACTIVE PRONE TO OUT BURSTS.
SOUND FAMILIAR?
I DON'T KNOW.
IS THIS RELAXING FOR YOU?
DID YOU DO THIS, YOU KNOW, FOR A REASON?
WELL, I LIKE TO TRY THINGS OUT OF THE BOX, CHRISTIANE.
I'VE BEEN PART OF THE TENNIS ESTABLISHMENT A LONG TIME.
ITS BEEN GOOD TO ME.
HOPEFULLY I'VE BEEN GOOD TO THEM.
THE BODY DOESN'T RESPOND THE WAY IT USED TO.
OBVIOUSLY.
I PLAYED 40 YEARS, 15 ON THE MAIN TOUR, 25 ON A CHAMPIONS TOUR.
IT.OVED ALMOST EVERY MINUTE OF LOOKING BACK WHEN YOU HAVE SOME PERSPECTIVE.
SO I'VE TRIED TO DO TALK SHOWS, GAME SHOWS.
THIS, THAT AND THE OTHER THING.
JUST TO KEEP THE INTEREST LEVEL UP, THE ENERGY UP.
THAT WAS JUST SORT OF A FLUKE THING.
MINDY KALING IS A GREAT WRITER AND SHE HAD THIS IDEA FOR THE SERIES THAT YOU JUST REFERENCED AND IT WAS -- AND SHE SAID -- I RAN INTO A VANITY FAIR OSCAR PARTY AND SHE'S LIKE OH MY GOD I HAVE THIS IDEA FOR YOU TO BE NARRATOR OF A SHOW.
AND I SAID YEAH RIGHT.
I'VE HEARD THAT BEFORE.
CHECK THIS IS IN THE MAIL.
YOU ARE NOT GOING TO SEE NOTHING HAPPEN FROM THAT.
95% OF IT DOESN'T HAPPEN BUT THEN IT DID HAPPEN.
AND WHEN I READ IT.
I WAS LIKE WAIT A MINUTE.
I'M SUPPOSED TO BE THE NARRATOR FOR THIS HIGH SCHOOL GIRL, INDIAN-AMERICAN GIRL TRYING TO DEAL UP AND FIGURE HOW TO DEAL WITH HER FRIENDS AND RELATIONSHIPS?
HOW DID THAT HAPPEN?
THIS IS CRAZY.
AND I SAAD PRESS WHERE THIS IS CRAZY.
BUT THEN CRAZY BUT MAYBE IT WOULD WORK SO TURNS OUT LONG STORY SHORT MINDY'S FATHER WAS A BIG FAN IN INDIA, SHE'S A FIRST GENERATION INDIAN-AMERICAN, OBVIOUSLY, COMING TO THE STATES.
HER DEALING WITH YOU KNOW WHAT IT WAS LIKE FOR HER GROWING UP.
BUT THE GIRL HAD A TEMPER.
SO IT WAS LIKE, AH, WHO ELSE HAS A TEMPER THAT -- OH YEAH MY FATHER LIKED JOHN McENROE.
SOMEHOW IT WORKS.
IT'S A BEAUTIFUL THING.
SOMETIMES YOU NEVER KNOW.
LISTEN, IS IT MORE CRAZY THATI'? I DON'T KNOW.
MAYBE AS THE TOSS UP.
BUT I'M LOVING THAT.
IT IS FUN TO DO.
I'M SORT OF THE ALTER EGO, THE UNCLE, THE ADVISOR, THE PSYCHOLOGIST, THE FRIEND ALL IN ONE.
SO I'M HAVING A GREAT TIME DOIN.
BUT IT REALLY COMES DOWN TO THE GREAT WRITING.
AND I'VE GOT A LOT OF NEW PEOPLE GOING HEY I KNOW YOU FROM 'NEVER HAVE I EVER' THAT NOT EVEN KNOW I'M A TENNIS.
I DON'T THINK HALF THE CAST KNOWS WHO THE HELL I AM.
WELL, THAT'S GOOD.
THAT'S FUN.
ENJOY, JOHN McENROE.
AND OF COURSE ITS BEEN PICKED UP FOR A THIRD SEASON.
AND TALK ABOUT MULTI CULTURAL AND FIRST GENERATION, ETC.,
> AND NOW WE CONTINUE OUR LOOK AT THE INTERSECTION OF SPORT AND POLITICS WITH THE KNEEL THAT IGNITE AD MOVEMENT.
EARLIER WE TALKED ABOUT FOOTBALL WAVES BACK IN 2016 FOR TAKING A KNEE DURING THE NATIONAL ANTHEME BRUTALITY AND RACIAL INEQUALITY IN AMERICA.
NOW SPORTS PSYCHOLOGIST EXAMINES THE LASTING IMPACT OF THIS MOMENT IN HIS NEW BOOK CALLED THE KAEPERNICK EFFECT.
AND HERE HE IS TALKING TO HARI SRINIVASAN ABOUT IT.
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.
THANKS, GREAT TO BE HERE.
SO THE KAEPERNICK EFFECT, FOR PERHAPS OUR OVERSEAS AUDIENCE, THE BOOK REALLY TALKS ABOUT THE EFFECT OF COLIN KAEPERNICK HAD.
BUT FOR PEOPLE WHO MIGHT NOT HAVE BEEN PAYING ATTENTION OVER THE YEARS, WHAT DID COLIN KAEPERNICK DO IN 2016 THAT STARTED THIS ALL?
WHAT COLIN KAEPERNICK DID WAS HE TOOK THE PROTEST THAT WAS TAKING PLACE THROUGHOUT THE UNITED STATES AGAINST POLICE INEQUITY AND HE BROUGHT IT TO THE NATIONAL FOOTBALL LEAGUE.
PARTICULARLY, HE BROUGHT IT TO THE NATIONAL ANTHEM SPACE, WHERE HE WOULD TAKE A KNEE DURING THE NATIONAL ANTHEM AS A WAY TO HIGHLIGHT THE GAP BETWEEN THE PROMISES OF THE ANTHEM AND THE PROMISES OF THE UNITED STATES AND THE LIVED REALITY OF FAR TOO MANY BLACK AMERICANS.
THAT'S THE KAEPERNICK EFFECT.
THE REPLICATION OF THAT PROTEST IN SMALL TOWNS AND BIG CITIES AROUND THE UNITED STATES.
IT WAS A CONTROVERSIAL RESPONSE WHEN COLIN KAEPERNICK DID IT.
AND WHAT'S FASCINATING IS YOU FIND THESE TEAM, INDIVIDUALS, ATHLETES THAT WEREN'T JUST BAND WAGONING WHEN IT WAS SAFE TO DO SO.
THEY WERE THINKING ABOUT IT AND THEY WERE DECIDING TO DO THIS A.
LET'S START WITH THE STORY THAT YOU HAVE OF GARFIELD HIGH SCHOOL.
I GREW UP IN SEATTLE AND KNOW GARFIELD PRETTY WELL.
HAD TO COMPETE AGAINST THEM.
WHAT HAPPENED THERE.
THIS GOES WITH THE BROADER THEME OF THE BOOK.
WHAT COLIN KAEPERNICK PROVIDED FOR STUDENT LIKES THE FOOTBALL AND SOCCER PLAYERS AND SOFTBALL PLAYERS AT GARFIELD WAS NOT SO MUCH AN INSPIRATION AS IN LET'S DO THIS FOR COLIN KAEPERNICK OR LET'S DO THIS BECAUSE COLIN KAEPERNICK DID IT.
WHAT COLIN KAEPERNICK PROVIDED WAS A LANGUAGE.
WAS A LEXICON, A METH OF STRUGGLE BY WHICH ATHLETES WHO WERE FEELING IN THEIR HEARTS THAT THERE WAS SOMETHING VERY WRONG WITH THIS COUNTRY.
AND HE GAVE THEM A LANGUAGE BY WHICH TO PUT THOSE IDEAS AND THOSE CONCERNS INTO PRACTICE.
NAMELY BY TAKING A KNEE DURING THE NATIONAL ANTHEM.
AND IT STARTED WITH THE FOOTBALL TEAM AT GARFIELD BECAUSE THEY HAD A COACH THERE NAMED JOEY THOMAS WHO HEARD THAT A COUPLE OF THE PLAYERS WERE TALKING ABOUT IT.
AND HE TURNED IT INTO A TEAM ISSUE.
HE SAID TO THEM, WAIT A MINUTE,E DURING THIS ANTHEM, IF YOU ARE GOING TO PROTEST RACIAL INEQUITY, YOU NEED TO KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.
AND SO WE'RE GOING TO HAVE A DISCUSSION ABOUT THAT.
AND THEN AFTER THE DISCUSSION WE'RE EITHER GOING TO DO IT AS A TEAM OR WE'RE NOT GOING TO DO IT AT ALL.
SO THEY SPOKE AS A TEAM ABOUT WHO WAS KILLED BY GEORGEG MAN ZIMMERMAN ABOUT TEN YEARS AGO.
THEY SPOKE ABOUT A WOMAN NAMED LILES WHO WAS KILLED BY SEATTLE POLICE AND MADE THE DECISION THEY WERE GOING TAKE THIS KNEE TOGETHER.
AND THEY DID SO AND IT HAD AN EFFECT ON THE SCHOOL WHERE OTHER STUDENTS SAID I WANT TO DO THAT TOO BECAUSE I'M ALSO UPSET ABOUT THE BALANCE OF THINGS IN SEATTLE WHICH HAS, YOU KNOW, THIS REPUTATION OF A VERY LIBERAL CITY.
BUT THEY WERE SEEING SOME OF THE CONTRADICTIONS WITH THAT LIBERALISM IN TERMS OF HOW THE SMALL BLACK POPULATION IN THE CITY WAS BEING TREATED.
AND WHEN THAT TOOK PLACE, THEY EXPECTED TO BE EMBRACED BECAUSE IT IS SEATTLE.
AND ON SOME LEVEL THEY WERE EMBRACED BY A LOT OF PEOPLE IN THE COMMUNITY FOR TAKING THAT STEP.
BUT THEY ALSO WERE SUBJECT TO A TERRIBLE BACKLASH.
COACH THOMAS FOUND HIMSELF OUT OF A JOB.
THE TIRES ON HIS CAR WERE SLASHED.
DEATH THREATS WERE REPORTED INTO THE SCHOOL.
BUT WHEN I SPOKE TO THE STUDENTS WHO HAD TAKEN PART IN IT, THEY HAD ABSOLUTELY NO REGRETS WHATSOEVER.
IF ANYTHING, WHAT THEY FELT WAS A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF PRIDE AND A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF VINDICATION FOR STANDING UP WHEN SO MANY PEOPLE WERE NOT DOING SO.
IT IS ALWAYS HARDER WHEN YOU ARE STANDING UP AND LET'S SAY, THIS IS AN IMPRESSIONABLE AGE.
YOU ARE 15, YOU ARE 16 YEARS OLD AND WHEN YOU DON'T HAVE THE SUPPORT OF YOUR PEERS, WHEN YOU SEE THIS KIND OF CRITICISM, THAT IS A DIFFERENT KIND OF, WELL, GUTS AND INTESTINAL FORTITUDE FOR TEENAGERS TO HAVE.
AND I THINK TEENAGERS GET SUCH A RAP, A BAD RAP IN THIS COUNTRY WHERE THEY ARE DERIDED FOR BEING APATHETIC BUT WHEN THEY DO SOMETHING, THEY ARE DERIDED FOR DOING SOMETHING.
ONLY THING WORSE THAN APATHY FOR A TEENAGER IN EYES OF MANY ADULTS IS ACTUALLY DOING SOMETHING.
AND I THINK WHAT STUDENTS LEARNED IS THEY WERE GOING TO GET CRITICISM BUT THEY WERE ALSO GOING TO START CONVERSATIONS AND THAT IS WHAT THEY SO DESPERATELY WANTED TO DO.
AND I ALSO LEARNED BY TALKING TO PEOPLE.
IT DIDN'T MATTER IF I WAS TALKING TO PEOPLE IN SEATTLE, WASHINGTON OR PEOPLE IN BEAUMONT, TEXAS OR UP STATE NEW YORK OR IN FLORIDA.
ONE OF THE THINGS THEY ALL HAD IN COMMON IS THAT THEY WERE ALL VERY YOUNG, 9, 10, 11 YEARS OLD WHEN TRAYVON MARTIN WAS KILLED.
AND WE SPOKE ABOUT EARLIER, AND WHEN THAT YOUNG MAN WAS KILLED, IT HAD THIS SCARRING EFFECT ON THEM.
IT HAD A TRAUMATIC EFFECT ON THEM, WHERE THEY JUST NEVER FORGOT WHAT IT FELT LIKE TO BE IN A COUNTRY WHERE NOT ONLY COULD YOU BE KILLED AS A YOUNG BLACK KID BUT ALSO THE PERSON WHO KILLED YOU WOULD NOT FACE JUSTICE.
WHEN IT WAS ALL SAID AND DONE.
FOR THESE YOUNG PEOPLE IT REMINDED ME A LOT OF STORIES I READ ABOUT THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT AND HOW YOUNG CIVIL RIGHTS ACTIVISTS WERE AFFECTED BY THE DEATH OF EMMETT TILL IN THE MID 1950s AND THE PICTURES OF HIS MISTAKEN DISTORTED BODY IN JET MAGAZINE.
IT WAS ECHOED, THIS IDEA THAT IT HAPPENED WHEN THEY WERE YOUNG AND SCARRED THEM AND WHAT COLIN KAEPERNICK PROVIDE WAS A METHOD TO DISPLAY THEIR DISSATISFACTION.
WHAT WAS THE STORY IN BEAUMONT, TEXAS.
IT INVOLVED AN ENTIRE YOUTH FOOTBALL TEAM THAT DECIDED THEY WERE GOING TO KNEEL.
AND THESE ARE, LIKE, KIDS.
AND LIKE, YOUNG KIDS.
11, 12, 13 YEARS OLD AND THEY FELT LIKE -- THE BEAUMONT BULLS FELT LIKE THEY WANTED TO KNEEL.
PARTLY BECAUSE OF THE WHAT COLIN KAEPERNICK AND I HAD AND FELT IT WAS EMBOLDENING.
PARTLY THEIR COACH WAS SUPPORTIVE AND PARTLY WAS THEIR PARENTS WERE SUPPORT i.
WHAT THEY DIDN'T EXPECT WAS THE BACKLASH.
AND THE BACKLASH WAS SO INTENSE THAT NOT ONLY THE TEAM BUT THE LEAGUE WAS CANCELED BECAUSE OF WHAT THEY DID.
THEY COMPLETELY KICKED -- IT WAS JUST LIKE OKAY.
RATHER THAN HAVING ANYONE KNEEL THERE WILL ACTUALLY BE NO FOOTBALL AND THIS WAS IN TEXAS FOR GOODNESS SAKES.
FRIDAY NIGHT LIGHTS IS A RELIGION.
LIKE BANNING SOCCER IN BRAZIL OR BANNING PIZZA IN NEW YORK.
AND THIS IS WHAT THEY DID.
AND WHAT WHEN I SPOKE TO ONE OF THE YOUNG PEOPLE AND THE MOTHER OF ONE OF THE YOUNG PEOPLE, AGAIN THE SENSE OF PRIDE.
AND IN THE BEAUMONT BULLS CASE THERE WAS SEVERAL NFL PLAYERS WHO DONATED MONEY AND EQUIPMENT SO THEY COULD START A NEW TEAM.
AND SO THAT'S A STORY THAT IS REALLY INTERESTING.
BECAUSE IT IS ABOUT SOLIDARITY AND ABOUT THE CONNECTION BETWEEN THE PROS AND WHAT HAPPENS AT THE MOST BASIC LEVEL OF YOUTH SPORTS.
YOU ALSO DIVED INTO SEVERAL, THE PHRASE IS USUALLY STUDENT ATHLETES BUT PEOPLE PLATFORM PERFORMING AT A VERY HIGH LEVEL IN COLLEGE AND YOU PICKED, ONE OF THE ATHLETES WAS INTERESTING TO ME, A CHEERLEADER WHO DECIDED TO TAKE STEPS AND HOW SHE WAS PERCEIVED AND THE CHALLENGES THAT SHE FACED.
YEAH.
SYDNEY STALLWORTH AT HOWARD UNIVERSITY.
I THOUGHT THAT STORY WAS REALLY INTERESTING BECAUSE THERE IS A LOT OF DISCUSSION THESE DAYS ABOUT HISTORICALLY BLACK COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES AND WHAT THEY CAN IN FACT PROVIDE AND WHAT SYDNEY STALLWORTH FOUND, BOTH AT HOWARD AND BOTH IN THE BROADER D.C. COMMUNITY WAS A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF SUPPORT.
AND I THOUGHT IT WAS INTERESTING THAT THEY TOOK THESE ACTIONS WHEN THE FOOTBALL TEAM DIDN'T TAKE THESE ACTIONS.
BECAUSE A LOT OF COLLEGE ATHLETES WOULD NOT TAKE THIS STEP NOT BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T AGREE WITH THE MOVEMENT BUT BECAUSE THEY REALLY DID FEEL LIKE IF THEY STEPPED OUT OF LINE THEY COULD GET IN TROUBLE WITH THEIR COACH, THEY MIGHT GET KICKED OFF THE TEAM, COLLEGE ATHLETES IN THIS COUNTRY, THEIR ANNUAL BASIS.ARE RENEWED ON AN SO THERE IS A HUGE FEAR FACTOR.
AND THE CHEERLEADERS DIDN'T SHOW THAT FEAR FACTOR.
SYDNEY WAS ONE OF ONLY -- OF MANY CHEERLEADERS THAT I SPOKE TO WHO TOOK PART IN THIS.
AND I JUST FOUND THAT REALLY INTERESTING BECAUSE CHEERLEADING IS OFTEN FIRST DERIDED AS NOT BEING A REAL SPORT AND SECOND OF ALL BEING SEEN AS ANCILLARY TO WHAT'S HAPPENING ON THE FIELD AND THEY FELT THEY NEEDED TO TAKE LEADERSHIP PRECISELY BECAUSE THE FOOTBALL TEAM WOULD NOT.
THE IDEA THE STUDENT ATHLETE SHOULD BE COMPENSATED HAS BEEN DEBATED FOR SOME TIME BUT SEEMED LIKE IT PICKED UP MORE TRACTION POSTKAEPERNICK, POSTGEORGE FLOYD AND ALMOST LIKE IF YOU START TO WRITE THE HISTORY OF THAT, THESE OTHER EVENTS KIND OF HAD TO HAPPEN FOR THEM TO GET A SEAT AT THE TABLE.
ABSOLUTELY.
SIMILARLY, THE WASHINGTON FOOTBALL TEAM, AND I LIVE IN THE D.C. AREA, THEY DECIDED TO CHANGE THEIR NAME FROM WHAT WAS PERCEIVED AS A RACIAL SLUR AGAINST NATIVE AMERICANS POSTKAEPERNICK AS WELL.
AND I'VE TALKED TO A LOT OF INDIGENOUS ACTIVISTS AND THEY ALL SAID THE SAME THING.
IT WAS THE INTERVENTION OF THE BLACK LIVES MATTER MOVEMENT THAT MADE HAVING THAT NAME UNTENABLE FOR THE WASHINGTON FOOTBALL TEAM.
AND SIMILARLY WITH ATHLETES GETTING PAID.
AND IT REMINDED ME OF SOMETHING THAT 1968 OLYMPIAN JOHN CAR LOW SAID TO ME.
WHERE HE SAID YOU KNOW THE REASON WHY ATHLETIC SALARIES WENT UP IN THE 1970s, WITH THE GROWTH OF FREE AGENCY.
IT WAS BECAUSE I RAISED THAT FIST AT THE OLYMPICS AND TOMMY SMITH RAISED THAT FIST AT THE '68 OLYMPICS.
IT MADE THEM REALIZE THERE WOULD BE A LARGER REVOLT ON THEIR HANDS IF THEY DIDN'T LOOSEN THE PURSE STRINGS.
I THINK THERE'S BEEN A SIMILAR DYNAMIC OVER THE LAST FIVE YEARS WHERE IT JUST GAVE A LOT OF PEOPLE IN POWER.
THEY FELT LIKE THEY WERE LOOKING AT A CANARY IN THE COAL MINE SO TO SPEAK AND REALIZED THERE NEEDED TO BE SOME KIND OF REFORM OR ELSE THE WHOLE SYSTEM COULD IMPLODE.
I DON'T THINK PEOPLE, AT LEAST OF YOUNGER GENERATIONS WILL RECOGNIZE THAT ACTIVISM AND ATHLETICS WENT TOGETHER DECADES AGO.
BUT IF YOU GREW UP, SAY, IN THE EIGHTIES OR THE NINETIES, YOU DIDN'T REALLY SEE ATHLETES STEPPING OUT AND EXPRESSING THEIR OPINION.
YOU SAW THEM MAKE A LOT OF MONEY.
AND THAT WAS THE SORT OF END ALL.
WOW I WANT TO BE LIKE MICHAEL JORDAN BECAUSE LOOK AT HIM.
HE'S NOT ONLY A GREAT ATHLETE, BUT HE'S SO WEALTHY.
LOOK AT ALL THE ENDORSEMENT DEALS AND SO, YOU KNOW.
BUT YOU DIDN'T SAY WOW I WANT TO BE MICHAEL JORDAN BECAUSE LISTEN TO HIS POSITION ON APARTHEID.
RIGHT.
THAT WAS NEVER SAID ABOUT MICHAEL JORDAN.
BUT I THINK WE'VE SEEN SUCH A SEA CHANGE OVER THE LAST TEN YEARS.
AND THE REASONS FOR IT TO ME ARE THREEFOLD WHY YOU HAVE SEEN THIS HUGE POLITICAL CHANGE IN SPORTS.
THE FIRST IS JUST THE EXISTENCE OF THE BLACK LIVES MATTER MOVEMENT.
LIKE THE 1960s, HAVING A MOVEMENT OFF THE FIELD IS CRITICAL TO SEE POLITICAL CONFIDENCE RICOCHET ON THE FIELD.
SECOND REASON IS SOCIAL MEDIA.
ATHLETES BEING ABLE TO SPEAK DIRECTLY TO THEIR AUDIENCE AND FEEL LIKE THEY CAN HAVE A POLITICAL INFLUENCE.
ON WHAT HAPPENS AROUND THEM.
SOCIAL MEDIA HAS BEEN EMPOWERING FOR THESE ATHLETES.
AND THE LAST REASON, HONESTLY IS LeBRON JAMES.
BECAUSE HE -- THE BASKETBALL SUPERSTAR HAS DECIDED THAT HE IS GOING TO BE A POLITICAL PERSON.E KILLING OF TRAYVON MARTIN.
LIKE FOR THESE YOUNG ATHLETES I TALK ABOUT.
WHEN HE POSE FORWARD A PHOTO WITH HIS MIAMI HEAT TEAMMATES WITH HIS HOOD OVER HIS HEAD THAT.
BECAME LIKE THE FIRST VIRAL SPORTS POLITICS PHOTO OF THE TWITTER AGE.
AND WHAT LeBRON JAMES HAS DONE IS BASICALLY BENT THE NBA AND ITS HAD A RIPPLE EFFECT THROUGHOUT THE WNBA, THE NFL OF COURSE.
AND HE BENT IT TO SAY, WE HAVE THE RIGHT TO BE POLITICAL.
WE DON'T SIGN AWAY OUR BELIEVES JUST BECAUSE WE CAN PUTT A BALL IN A HOOP.
ONE THING I WONDER IS RIGHT NOW WE'RE ALSO IN A CONVERSATION ABOUT WHAT DOES AN EMPLOYER HAVE A RIGHT TO ASK OF AN EMPLOYEE?
FOR EXAMPLE IN THE CASE OF VACCINATIONS.
SO IF THERE IS SOME SORT OF MANDATE THAT COMES DOWN FROM A BOSS THAT SAYS IN THIS CASE YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO TAKE A KNEE, WHAT HAPPENS?
AREN'T TECHNICALLY EMPLOYEES RESPONSIBLE FOR THE WINS OF THEIR BOSSES AND THEIR ORGANIZATIONS THEY WORK FOR?
WELL THERE ARE A COUPLE OF VERY GOOD ARGUMENTS NFL PLAYERS HAVE MADE AND COULD MAKE IF THEY ARE FACED WITH THAT SITUATION.
THE FIRST IS THAT THE PLACE THEY ARE TAKING A KNEE IS EFFECTIVE LAY PUBLIC SQUARE MORE THAN A PRIVATE ENTITY.
GIVEN THE AMOUNT OF PUBLIC FUNDS INTO BUILDING STADIUMS AND GIVEN THE AMOUNT OF PUBLIC INTERACTION.
MOST OF US DON'T WORK IN FRONT OF 70,000 PEOPLE.
THAT IS PUBLIC KIND OF PRESENTATION, MORE THAN IT IS A PRIVATE BUSINESS.
THE SECOND THING IS THAT THE NATIONAL ANTHEM REALLY HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT THEY DO ON THE FIELD OF PLAY.
IF A PLAYER DECIDED TO TAKE A KNEE ON THE 50 YARD LINE IN MIDDLE OF A THIRD AND SIX SITUATION, THEN BY ALL MEANS FIRE THEM.
BUT IF A PLAYER DOES IT DURING THE ANTHEM.
SOMETHING THAT BY THE WAY THE NFL PLAYERS DIDN'T EVEN HAVE TO COME OUT FOR UNTIL 2007, I BELIEVE IT WAS, AS PART OF A CONNECTION THAT WAS MADE BETWEEN THE PENTAGON AND THE NATIONAL FOOTBALL LEAGUE.
A FINANCIAL PARTNERSHIP CALLED 'TRIBUTE TO THE TROOPS.'
IF THAT WASN'T THE, SORT OF, SURROUNDING POLITICS OF THE EVENT ITSELF, THEN ONE MIGHT HAVE A CASE TO SAY THAT PLAYERS ARE RISKING THEIR JOBS.
BUT WHAT THEY ARE DOING IS A PUBLIC ACT OF SPEECH I WOULD ARGUE.
THE MAJORITY OF THE LEAGUE ARE PEOPLE OF COLOR.
AND YET THE OWNERSHIP IS ALMOST ALL WHITE, CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG.
BUT IT WAS SUCH A TOUGHER CLIMB TO TRY TO CHANGE THE NFL, ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU HAD THE PRESIDENT AT THE TIME CALLING PLAYERS WHO WERE KNEELING NAMES.
YES.
I MEAN THIS WAS A VERY DIFFICULT DYNAMIC FOR PLAYERS IN THE NATIONAL FOOTBALL LEAGUE.
FIRST AND FOREMOST, THE AVERAGE NFL CAREER IS ONLY THREE YEARS.
AND THE CONTRACTS ARE NOT GUARANTEED.
SO IF YOU LOSE YOUR PLACE ON A ROSTER, I MEAN, YOU ARE PROBABLY NOT GOING TO FIND YOUR WAY BACK ON TO ONE.
SO THERE IS A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF RISK INVOLVED.
PARTICULARLY GIVEN THE SUMS OF MONEY AT PLAY.
AND NFL OWNERS, AND I CHART THIS ON THE BASIS OF POLITICAL DONATIONS, TEND TO BE EXTREMELY RIGHT WING IN THEIR POLITICS.
YET THEY CAN'T JUST COME DOWN ON PLAYERS AND SAY WE'RE GOING TO KICK YOU ALL OUT OF THE LEAGUE FOR DOING THIS BECAUSE THEN THEY WOULDN'T HAVE PLAYERS IN AND OF THEMSELVES SO I WOULD ARGUE THE NFL OWNERSHIP STRUCTURE HAS UNDER GONE A VERY CARROT AND STICK APPROACH TO THESE PROTESTS.
SLOGANS ON THE FIELD LIKE END RACISM.
PLAYERS CAN PUT BLACK LIVES MATTER DECALS ON THEIR HELMETS.
THAT IS SOMETHING NEW.
THEY STARTED SOCIAL JUSTICE COALITIONS OF PLAYERS IN THE LEAGUE.
ALL OF THAT IS THE CARROT.
BUT THE STICK IS THAT COLIN KAEPERNICK, NEVER ABLE TO FIND HIS WAY BACK ON TO A TEAM.
HIS TWO COHORTS, BOTH I INTERVIEW IN THE BOOK, ERIC REED AND KENNY STILLS ARE FREE AGENTS RIGHT NOW.
THEY DON'T HAVE A PLACE ON NFL ROSTER AND THESE PLAYERS ARE USED AS GHOST STORIES BY MANAGEMENT AS A WAY TO SAY TO YOUNG PLAYERS DON'T STEP OUT OF LINE OR YOU COULD END UP ON THE OUTSIDE LOOKING IN.
SO ITS BEEN A VERY CARROT AND STICK APPROACH BY THE NATIONAL FOOTBALL LEAGUE.
HAS THERE BEEN ANY MEASURABLE IMPACTS ON THE REVENUE AND VIEWERSHIP OF SPORTS?
BECAUSE ONE OF THE CRITIQUES FROM THE RIGHT AND FROM FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS BEEN OH, LOOK, LOOK AT THE RATINGS, THEY ARE SO HORRIBLE NOW BECAUSE OF ALL THESE ATHLETES TAKING A KNEE.
I'M SO GLAD YOU ASKED THAT BAA QUESTION.
BECAUSE BECAUSE THAT'S BEEN ONE OF THE BIGGEST CANARDS OVER THE LAST FIVE YEARS THAT FANS WOULD BE DRIVEN AWAY BY ATHLETES PROTESTING.
IT IS TRUE THAT SPORTS RATINGS DROPPED DRAMATICALLY DURING THE FIRST YEAR OF THE PANDEMIC.
AND A LOT OF FOLKS RUSHED TO THAT CONCLUSION, OH IT MUST BE THE POLITICS THAT IS PUSHING PEOPLE AWAY.
AND YET MARIS COLLEGE DID A VERY HELPFUL AND VERY IN-DEPTH POLL.
AND WHAT THEY FOUND WAS PEOPLE WEREN'T WATCHING SPORTS BECAUSE OF THE PANDEMIC.
I MEAN, SPORTS ARE ABOUT FUN AND PLAY.
LIKE SPORTS WRITER JANE McMANUS SAID SPORTS ARE THE REWARD FOR A FUNCTIONING SOCIETY.
AND WITHOUT SOCIETY FUNCTIONING THERE WAS FAR LESS OF A THIRST TO ACTUALLY -- PARTICULARLY AN ELECTION YEAR TO ACTUALLY KNOW WHO WAS WINNING THE A.L. EAST.
IT WAS FAR LOWER THAN PEOPLE'S PRIORITY LISTS.
SO IT WAS LESS POLITICS AND MORE THIS ONCE IN A CENTURY PANDEMIC.
IS IT SAFE NOW TO PROTEST?
IS IT SAFE NOW TO TAKE A KNEE?
IT DEPENDS ON THE SITUATION.
I MEAN, I WOULD SAY NO.
AND THE FACT THAT IT IS NOT SAFE IS PRECISELY WHAT GIVES IT ITS POWER.
IRONICALLY IN SOME PLACES, PARTICULARLY IN ENGLISH SOCCER, YOU SEE A LOT OF PLAYERS TAKING A KNEE.
AND IT IS KIND OF A TEAM ACTIVITY.
AND THAT I WOULD ARGUE IS LESS EFFECTIVE PRECISELY BECAUSE IT IS SAFE.
SO IT IS WHEN YOU ARE WILLING TO REBEL.
IT IS WHEN YOU ARE WILLING TO MAKE PEOPLE UNCOMFORTABLE THAT IT ACTUALLY HAS USE VALUE FOR A MOVEMENT.
THE BOOK IS CALLED 'THE KAEPERNICK EFFECT.'
DAVE ZIRIN THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.
THANK YOU SO MUCH.
FOCUSSING ON THE RISK TAKERS.
> AND FINALLY SPORTS STARS GRACE THE MET GALA IN NEW YORK.
THIS YEAR'S THEME WAS AMERICAN INDEPENDENCE, AND IT LEFT PLENTY OF ROOM FOR INTERPRETATION.
THERE WERE TENNIS CHAMPIONS, NAOMI OSAKA AND SERENA WILLIAMS MIXING WITH DESIGNERS, MODELS AND OTHER CELEBRICELEBRITIES.
A CONGRESSWOMAN HONORED WOMEN'S SUFFRAGE WITH SASHES.
AND FELLOW DEMOCRAT WORE A DRESS WITH THE SLOGAN TAX THE RICH SCROLLED ALL ACROSS THE BACK BRINGING HER MESSAGE TO THE BIGGEST AND WEALTHIEST STARS.
HOPE THEY READ IT.
THAT IS IT FOR NOW.
YOU CAN FOLLOW ME AND THE SHOW ON TWITTER.
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR WATCHING ON PBS.
JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.