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> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR AND COMPANY.
HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.
THE SCALE OF UNJUST AND THE LEVEL OF URGENCY IS OBVIOUS.
THE GREAT VACCINE DIVIDE AS WEALTHY NATIONS PLOW AHEAD WITH BOOSTER SHOTS, THE W.H.O.'S EUROPE CHIEF HANS KLUGER JOINS ME.
> THEN PEOPLE RISKING THEIR LIVES TO SAVE OUR PLANET.
I SPEAK TO ONE ON THE FRONT LINE AND TO THE WATCH DOG TRACKING THIS, MIKE DAVIS OF GLOBAL WITNESS.
> PLUS.
WHAT WE'RE SEEING IS A HOME BREW OF AMERICAN RADICALISM.
COVID AND THE AMERICAN CULTURE WARS.
CO-FOUNDER OF THE LINCOLN PROJECT STEVE SCHMIDT'S TAKE ON THE BATTLE OVER MASK MANDATES AND VACCINES.
AMANPOUR AND COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III.
CANDACE KING WEIR.
THE CHERYL AND PHILIP MILLSTEIN FAMILY.
THE ANDERSON FAMILY FUND.
THE STRAUSS FAMILY FOUNDATION.
JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.
BERNARD AND DENISE SCHWARTZ.
PATRICIA EWAN.
COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.
ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS.
AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.
THANK YOU.
> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.
I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.
THE LONGER VACCINE IN EQUITY PERSISTS, THE MORE THE VIRUS WILL KEEP CIRCULATING AND CHANGING.
THAT WARNING FROM THE W.H.O.
CHIEF AS MANY WEALTHY NATIONS GET READY TO START ROLLING OUT BOOSTER SHOTS, HERE IN THE UK THE MOST VULNERABLE WILL BE OFFERED A THIRD DOSE FROM NEXT WEEK.
AND IN THE UNITED STATES, THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION IS PUSHING TO MAKE THE WIDELY AVAILABLE BY MONDAY.
MEANWHILE, IN POORER COUNTRIES, MANY ARE STILL WAITING FOR THEIR FIRST SHOTS.
AND WITH VACCINE UPDATES WANING IN EUROPE, THE W.H.O. WARNS THE CONTINENT COULD SEE OVER 200,000 ADDITIONAL COVID DEATHS BY DECEMBER.
HERE'S EUROPEAN COMMISSION PRESIDENT URSULA IN HER ANNUAL STATE OF THE UNION SPEECH.
OUR FIRST AND MOST URGENT PRIORITY IS TO SPEED UP GLOBAL VACCINATION.
WITH LESS THAN 1% OF GLOBAL DOSES ADMINISTERED IN LOW-INCOME COUNTRIES, THE SCALE OF IN JUSTICE AND THE LEVEL OF URGENCY IS OBVIOUS.
THIS IS ONE OF THE GREAT GEO POLITIC ISSUES OF OUR TIME.
HANS KLUGER IS CHIEF OF THE W.H.O. AND HE JOINS ME FROM COPE ENHAGER.
WELCOME.
THAT'S AN EXTRAORDINARY NUMBER.
YOU SAID A QUARTER OF A MILLION POTENTIAL DEATHS YOU PREDICT IN EUROPE BY DECEMBER -- WELL, UNDER THE CURRENT CIRCUMSTANCES.
WHY DO YOU THINK THAT IS HAPPENING RIGHT NOW?
THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME ON THE PROGRAM.
WELL, WHAT WE SEE IS THAT AFTER A INITIAL SHARP INCREASE IN VACCINATION UPTAKE AND 35 OUT OF THE 53 EUROPEAN COUNTRIES, WE SEE EIGHT PLATEAUING.
AND IF YOU LOOK ACROSS THE REGION, THERE IS A HUGE IN EQUITY.
IN FACT, THAT'S THE NEED OF THE HOUR OF THE DAY, I WOULD SAY, TO CLOSE THE GAP.
IN THE HEIGHTENED COUNTRIES, 59% OF THE POPULATION GOT A FULL SERIES.
IN THE UPPER MIDDLE COUNTRIES, 31%. AND THE LOWER MIDDLE INCOME COUNTRIES, ONLY ABOUT 10%. SO WE'RE NOT GETTING TO THE DESIRED LEVEL.
WE'RE NOT OUT OF THE WOODS YET.
THE DESIRED LEVEL IS WHAT EXACTLY?
THE EUROPEAN TECHNICAL ADVISORY GROUP ADVISES 80%, BUT WE HAVE TO TAKE IT STEPWISE.
BY THE END OF YEAR, WE WOULD LIKE TO SEE 40%. SO IN THE RICHER COUNTRIES, WE'RE THERE, BUT NOT YET IN THE MIDDLE INCOME AND PARTICULARLY THE LOW-INCOME COUNTRIES.
GLOBALLY, SPEAKING ABOUT ONE OR TWO OR 3%. LIKE, FOR EXAMPLE, IN THE AFRICAN REGION, AND THAT REGION WHY I INVITED, FOR EXAMPLE, THE REGIONAL DIRECTOR OF THE W.H.O.
OF THE AFRICAN REGION TO MY GOVERNING BOARD WHICH JUST CLOSED THIS WEEK BECAUSE WE HAD TO STAND TOGETHER.
AND WHAT WE NEED IS POLITICAL LEADERSHIP AND COORDINATION, BECAUSE THERE ARE EXCESS DOSES, THERE ARE SOME ESTIMATES OF 1.2 BILLION EXCESS DOSES IN THE WEST BETWEEN NOW AND THE END OF THE YEAR, BUT WE HAVE TO ENSURE THAT THOSE EXTRA DOSES GET WHERE THEY ARE MOST NEEDED.
OKAY.
SO, I'M GOING TO PUT UP THIS GRAPHIC THAT WE HAVE WHICH SHOWS THE DIFFERENT INCOME LEVELS AND THE DIFFERENT, YOU KNOW, PERCENTAGES OF VACCINATION.
BUT I WANT TO ASK YOU, BEYOND THE FACT THAT IT'S PLATEAUING, WHY IS THIS HAPPENING?
IT'S NOT REALLY ACCESS, WE UNDERSTAND.
I MEAN, THE EUROPEAN COMMISSION PRESIDENT HAS SAID, AND I THINK YOU WOULD ALL AGREE, THAT AFTER A PRETTY SHAKY START ON VACCINES LAST DECEMBER, EUROPE HAS RAMPED THEM UP.
THERE ARE VACCINES AVAILABLE.
A LOT IS BEING PUT DOWN TO MISINFORMATION IN CERTAIN COUNTRIES.
CAN YOU EXPAND ON THAT AND TELL ME WHAT IS THE MAIN REASON FOR THIS LAG IN THIS IN EQUITY?
WE ARE TAKING A HOLISTIC APPROACH, SO THREE THINGS.
FIRST, WE HAVE TO INCREASE THE UPTAKE, AND YOU'RE HINTING TO THAT, CHRISTIANE.
THERE IS QUITE SOME VACCINE SKEPTICISM, AND THIS IS NOTHING GOOD.
AND THE ONLY WAY TO TACKLE THAT ONE IS COMMUNITY ENGAGEMENT AND EMPOWERMENT.
I INVITED DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, THE CHIEF MEDICAL ADVISER TO THE U.S. PRESIDENT, TO MY GOVERNING BOARD ON MONDAY AND WE HAD THE SAME ISSUES.
WE NEED COMMUNITY CHAMPIONS.
WE NEED TO INVOLVE THE PEOPLE AND BASE OUR POLICIES ON DATA.
THIS IS NUMBER ONE, THE UPTAKE.
NUMBER TWO IS ACCESS.
THERE ARE SOME COUNTRIES, PARTICULARLY THE LOWER INCOME HAVE AN ISSUE.
FOR EXAMPLE, THE CENTRAL ASIAN COUNTRIES, SOME COUNTRIES IN THE EAST AND THEN GLOBALLY IN THE AFRICAN REGION, BASIC ISSUES, BECAUSE SOME COUNTRIES HAVE 100 MILLION, 200 MILLION, BUT THAT'S NOT ENOUGH.
WE NEED POLITICAL LEADERSHIP.
WE NEED 11 BILLION DOSES TO KILL OFF THE PANDEMIC.
AND THE THIRD ONE IS TO INCREASE THE PRODUCTION CAPACITY WHICH CAN HAPPEN WITH, FOR EXAMPLE, TECHNOLOGY TRANSFER AND AT THE LATER STAGE MAYBE, RAISING OF THE PATENT AND INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY RIGHTS.
OKAY.
SO, CAN I ACTUALLY THEN FOCUS ON THAT ISSUE THAT YOU RAISE?
YOU SAY YOU INVITED THE HEAD OF THE AFRICAN UNION EXPERT ON THIS AND HE'S OBVIOUSLY BEEN SPEAKING ABOUT THIS, PARTICULARLY ABOUT WHAT EUROPE AND OTHERS AND W.H.O. I'M SURE WOULD HOPE WOULD BE A SORT OF PARTNERSHIP ALSO WITH PRIVATE INDUSTRY.
AND THERE STILL ARE, YOU KNOW, PROBLEMS.
AND THE AFRICAN UNION SPECIAL ENVOY HAS SAID THEY WANTED TO BUY THEM, BUT THEY'VE BEEN SHUT OUT.
LET'S PLAY THIS.
THOSE MANUFACTURERS KNOW VERY WELL THAT THEY NEVER GAVE US PROPER ACCESS.
THEY GAVE ACCESS ON A VERY DIFFERENT BASIS.
WHEN THEY KNEW THAT SUPPLIES WERE RESTRICTED AT THE BEGINNING, THERE WAS NO PRODUCTION.
WE ALL ACCEPTED THERE WASN'T SUFFICIENT PRODUCTION.
BUT THEY HAD A MORAL RESPONSIBILITY TO ENSURE THAT OTHERS ALSO HAD ACCESS.
AND WE, WE FIND THIS VERY SAD.
WHAT IS THE W.H.O. STANCE ON THIS, DR. KLUGER?
DO YOU AGREE, DO YOU BELIEVE WHAT HE SAID, THEY'VE BEEN SHUT OUT?
AND IF SO, HOW DOES ONE CORRECT THAT?
WELL, THE PRINCIPLE IS THAT NO ONE IS SAFE UNTIL EVERYONE IS SAFE.
I MEAN, THE DEATH AND THE SUFFERING WILL BE IMPRINTED IN OUR UNIVERSAL MEMORY FOR A LONG TIME TO COME.
BUT IT ALSO SHOWS, IT GAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO SOCIETY TO SEE THE LINKS BETWEEN ALL PEOPLE IN THE WORLD, SO WE SHOULD LEAVE REALLY NO ONE BEHIND.
WHAT WE NEED IS COURAGE, COLLABORATION, INNOVATION, AND THE POLITICAL LEADERSHIP, AND THAT'S, FOR EXAMPLE, WHY I WOULD LIKE THE GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED STATES FOR THE NEXT WEEK ORGANIZING A VIRTUAL SUMMIT OF THE HEADS OF STATE BECAUSE THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE.
THIS IS NOT A HEALTH ISSUE.
THIS IS AN ISSUE OF THE HEADS OF STATE AND WE NEED GLOBAL SOLIDARITY.
SO, YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE HAD TO ACCEPT, AND I GUESS SUFFER IN THE PUBLIC DOMAIN A LOT OF COMPLAINTS AGAINST THE W.H.O., THE LEADER OF THE W.H.O. AS WELL, AND YOU HAVE ACTUALLY WRITTEN ABOUT THIS.
YOU HAVE SAID THAT THE W.H.O.
NEEDS TO LOOK INSIDE, NEEDS TO LOOK AT ITSELF, AND NEEDS TO LEARN FROM THIS PANDEMIC.
YOU'VE SAID, LEARNING LESSONS IS ONE THING, BUT IN ORDER TO IMPLEMENT THOSE LESSONS, W.H.O.
ITSELF AS AN ORGANIZATION NEEDS TO LOOK AT ITS OWN INSTITUTIONAL FITNESS.
THE WORST THING W.H.O. CAN DO TODAY IS BE SELF-DEFENSIVE.
CAN YOU EXPAND ON THAT?
WHAT, THEN, ARE THE CORRECTIVE MEASURES THE W.H.O. SHOULD TAKE, AND ESPECIALLY IN THE AREA OF VACCINE IN EQUITY, WHICH IS SOMETHING YOU'VE ALL TALKED ABOUT QUITE RIGHTLY FOR SO LONG, AND YET IT STILL PERSISTS?
SO, FOR ME AS THE DIRECTOR OF THE EUROPEAN REGION, THE DIAGNOSIS IS INDEED QUITE CLEAR.
THREE THINGS.
THE FIRST IS THAT WE NEED MUCH MORE INTER-REGIONAL COLLABORATION.
THE REGIONAL OFFICES NEED TO BE STRENGTHENED BECAUSE WE ARE CLOSE TO THE COUNTRIES AND THAT'S WHAT WE'RE DOING NOW.
FOR EXAMPLE, I GAVE THE EXAMPLE OF INVITING THE REGIONAL DIRECTOR NOT ONLY OF THE AFRICAN REGION, BUT THE EASTERN MEDITERRANEAN REGION WHERE WE HAVE TO ANTICIPATE THE HEALTH NEEDS OF THE PEOPLE IN AFGHANISTAN.
SO THIS IS NUMBER ONE.
NUMBER TWO, WE NEED MUCH MORE POLITICAL PARTICIPATION OF THE MEMBER STATES THEMSELVES UNDER WHAT WE CALL THE INTERNATIONAL HEALTH REGULATIONS, WHICH NEEDS TO INCLUDE CONSEQUENCE FOR NON-OBSERVANCE BY THE SIGNATORIES AND THAT HAS TO INCLUDE, FOR EXAMPLE, UNFETTERED ACCESS BY W.H.O. EXPERTS TO COUNTRIES AND ACCESS TO DATA.
IF THE MEMBER STATES DO NOT ADDRESS THIS ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM, NO NEW TREATY, NO NEW INTERNATIONAL HEALTH REGULATIONS WILL MAKE THE WORLD A SAFER PLACE.
AND THIRD, W.H.O. IS UNDER POWERED AND UNDER FINANCED.
SO THERE NEEDS TO BE MUCH MORE FLEXIBLE FINANCING.
WE HAD A GOOD SESSION AT MY GOVERNING BODY BOARD TODAY.
ONLY 60% OF THE FUNDING OF W.H.O. COMES FROM THE MEMBER STATE WHICH GOVERNS OUR ORGANIZATION.
84% IS VERY SPECIFIED AND EARMARKED.
SO THIS IS ANOTHER ISSUE THAT THE MEMBER STATES NEED TO FIX.
I MEAN, I WILL ASK YOU ESSENTIALLY WHAT POWERS DO WE HAVE OR YOU HAVE TO HOLD THEM ACCOUNTABLE FOR THIS?
BUT LET ME FIRST GO TO SOME PRACTICAL ISSUES I'M SURE PEOPLE ARE GOING TO WANT TO KNOW ABOUT.
THE BOOSTERS HAVE BEEN WIDELY TOUTED FOR A LONG TIME.
WE KNOW THAT ISRAEL FOR A LONG TIME HAS BEEN SORT OF A TEST CASE, IS WORKING HAND IN HAND WITH, ESSENTIALLY, THE GLOBAL COMMUNITY TO, YOU KNOW, USE THEIR DATA TO SHOW WHAT THEY'RE DOING WHAT DOESN'T WORK.
THEY'RE DOING BOOSTERS.
THE U.S. IS DOING IT.
THE UK IS GOING TO DO IT YOU YOUR SELF SAID WE CAN NO LONGER SEE ADDITIONAL DOSES OF SO-CALLED LUXURY BOOSTERS, IT'S AN ESSENTIAL WAY TO PROTECT THE MOST VULNERABLE IN OUR SOCIETY.
HOWEVER, THE EUROPEAN CENTER FOR DISEASE PREVENTION SAYS THERE'S NO NEED FOR BOOSTER DOSES FOR THE FULLY VACCINATED.
YOU KNOW, SO THERE'S STILL COMPLICATION ABOUT SHOULD YOU, SHOULDN'T YOU.
WHY DO YOU SAY IT'S NOT A LUXURY BUT IT'S A NECESSARY?
YES, I DON'T THINK THAT IT'S NECESSARILY A CONTRADICTION HERE.
IN FACT, INDEED, LITERALLY AS YOU WERE TELLING SOME THAT FOR PEOPLE WITH UNDERLYING MEDICAL CONDITIONS, IT'S VERY IMPORTANT BECAUSE IT'S -- BASICALLY IT'S FOR PEOPLE WHOSE IMMUNITY HAS RAISED.
IF IMMUNITY HAS RAISED BECAUSE OF UNDERLYING MEDICAL CONDITIONS, ARE YOU MORE OR LESS PRIORITY THAN SOMEONE WHO HAD NO JAB YET?
WHEN I DISCUSSED THIS WITH OUR EXPERTS, AND ALSO WITH DR.
FAUCI, THE ANSWER WAS DO IT ALL.
WE HAVE DOSES, WE NEED TO DO IT ALL.
NOW, FOR THE ELDERLY, THAT'S -- WE NEVER TALKED BECAUSE THERE THE EVIDENCE IS NOT CRYSTAL CLEAR YET, THE EVIDENCE FOR THE ELDERLY.
BUT WE GOT IT, TO BE HONEST, ONE TIME WRONG IN THE BEGINNING AND WE LEFT MANY ELDERLY PEOPLE BEHIND, AND THAT'S WHY I'M VERY APPRECIATIVE TO COUNTRIES LIKE ISRAEL WHO ARE PIONEERS.
BECAUSE THE OTHER THING WE HAVE TO CONSIDER, THAT IF WE WILL CONTINUE TO LIFT WITH SARS-CoV-2, ENDEMIC TRANSMISSION, THEN WE DESPERATELY NEED URGENTLY GOOD INFORMATION ABOUT THE IMPACT OF ADDITIONAL DOSES.
SO, A NUMBER OF FRONT RUNNER COUNTRIES, AS LONG AS THEY SHARE DATA LIKE ISRAEL AND UK ARE DOING, IT'S VERY IMPORTANT FOR THE REST OF THE WORLD.
SO, LET ME JUST SAY -- I TOLD YOU WHAT THEY'RE DOING IN ISRAEL AND YOU MENTIONED THAT.
BUT HERE IN THE UK WHERE THEY HOPE -- WHERE THEY'VE ALREADY SENT OUT ACTUALLY THEIR CALLS FOR THOSE WHOARE COMPROMISED AN NEED IT FOR THE BOOSTER.
SARAH WHO IS THE CREATOR FOR THE ASTRAZENECA VACCINE, THE I'M UNO COMPROMISED IN ELDERLY WILL GET BOOSTERS.
I DON'T THINK WE NEED TO BOOST EVERYONE.
IMMUNITY IS LASTING WELL IN THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE.
SO, JUST, DO YOU AGREE THAT IT IS LASTING WELL IN THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE?
UNTIL NOW WE HAVE NO EVIDENCE THAT THE GENERAL POPULATION WOULD NEED A THIRD JAB, AND IT'S VERY IMPORTANT INDEED.
WE CANNOT HAVE A SITUATION WHERE IN THE WORLD THERE ARE DOCTORS, NURSES, ELDERLY PEOPLE WHO HAVEN'T HAD THEIR FIRST JAB YET.
BUT AT THE SAME TIME, WE NEED TO FOLLOW THE EVIDENCE AND THIS EVOLUTION VERY, VERY CLOSE BECAUSE WE ALSO KNOW WHAT HAPPENED IN ISRAEL, THAT'S WHY THE PROPORTION OF THE PEOPLE INFECTED NOW END UP IN THE HOSPITALS ARE THE ELDERLY PEOPLE WHO GOT TWO JABS.
SO IN THAT SENSE WE SHOULD BE ON ALERT.
AND SO, LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT, YOU KNOW, RESISTANCE.
AS WE TALKED ABOUT MISINFORMATION AND SOME ANTI -- WELL, THE ANTI-VAXX EFFECT.
THERE IS ALSO THE COURTROOM EFFECT.
IN THE UNITED STATES, SOME OF THESE MANDATES THAT THE PRESIDENT HAS ANNOUNCED HAVE BEEN CHALLENGED.
AND A FEDERAL JUDGE HAS TEMPORARILY BLOCKED THE STATE OF NEW YORK JUST THIS WEEK FROM FORCING MEDICAL WORKERS TO BE VACCINATED.
JUST WANT TO SAY FOR OUR VIEWERS THAT, YOU KNOW, THIS IS AN ISSUE THAT'S GONE BACK 100 YEARS IF NOT MORE WHILE IN 190 5, THE U.. SUPREME COURT UPHELD A LAW THAT DID IMPOSE A FINE FOR NOT GETTING THE SMALL POX VACCINE.
I'M ASKING YOU WHETHER YOU THINK LIKE IN THE U.S., MANDATES, MASK MANDATES, VACCINE MANDATES WHICH EXIST IN SOME COUNTRIES MIGHT END UP IN COURT, AND THIS WHOLE THING MIGHT BECOME A LEGAL ISSUE LIKE IT HAS IN THE U.S.?
YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.
THIS IS NOT A NEW ISSUE.
SO, THE PRINCIPLE IS THAT, FIRST AND FOREMOST, WE HAVE TO ENGAGE THE COMMUNITY, EMPOWER THEM, WORK WITH COMMUNITY CHAMPIONS, HAVE AN OVERLOAD OF CORRECT INFORMATION TO THE SOCIAL MEDIA, AND GET PEOPLE WHO DOUBT INTO OUR CLINICAL TRIALS AND DEVELOPMENT BECAUSE WE KNOW THAT IS REDUCING VACCINE SKEPTICISM.
MANDATORY VACCINATION HAS ALSO PROVEN IN CERTAIN INSTANCES TO INCREASE VACCINE SKEPTICISM.
AT THE SAME TIME, AT W.H.O., WE ENCOURAGE ALL STRATEGIES TO INCREASE VACCINATION UPTAKE AS LONG AS THEY RESPECT HUMAN RIGHTS AND VERY IMPORTANT THAT THEY WILL NOT DEPLETE HOSPITAL WORK FORCE, WHICH ALREADY IS QUITE OVERSTRESSED BECAUSE ITS MANDATORY MEASURES WOULD LEAD TO SITUATIONS WHERE WE HAVE LESS NURSES AND DOCTORS WORKING IN THE HEALTH SUITE.
I SAY I WOULD CERTAINLY EMPATHIZE WITH MINISTERS WHO CONSIDER THIS, BUT IT SHOULD BE THOUGHT THROUGH ONLY FOR CERTAIN POPULATION GROUPS AND PROFESSIONALS EXPOSED AND A NUMBER OF CAVEATS.
WE ARE VERY HAPPY TO THINK THROUGH CASE BY CASE IF THE COUNTRY WANTS THIS TO HAPPEN.
WELL, YOU'RE PROBABLY ADDRESSING THE FACT THAT THERE IS A CRISIS IN CERTAIN HOSPITALS, LIKE IN FRANCE THERE IS A SHORTAGE OF ANESS THETISTS.
HEALTH WORKERS WON'T TAKE THE VACCINE.
IT'S BEEN MANDATED IN THE UNITED STATES AS WELL.
THERE IS ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE SOME PROCEDURES HAVE HAD TO BE CANCELED BECAUSE HEALTH WORKERS AREN'T -- YOU'RE SAYING THERE SHOULD BE CAVEATS FOR HEALTH WORKERS, BUT DOESN'T THAT SOUND SO COUNTER INTUITIVE?
IF A HEALTH WORKER, ONE OF THOSE MODELLING PROFESSIONALS, ONE OF THOSE, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE WHO, YOU KNOW, STAND AT THE TOP OF THIS PARTICULAR CRISIS, IF THEY WON'T TAKE THE VACCINE, WHY SHOULD ANYBODY ELSE TAKE IT?
WELL, I THINK THAT WE'RE NOT GOING TO COMBAT THE PANDEMIC IF THE HEALTH CARE WORKERS ARE NOT VACCINATED.
THAT'S TRUE.
SO IT'S A BALANCE THAT WE HAVE TO STRIKE HERE AND WE HAVE TO WORK WITH THOSE PEOPLE WHO CAN CONVINCE THE SKEPTICS.
OFTEN THERE IS INFORMATION IN MANY COUNTRIES, POLICIES ARE BEING DEVELOPED BASED ON PRESUMPTIONS, PERCEPTIONS, SO IT'S VERY IMPORTANT THAT WE DO WHAT WE CALL FORMATIVE RESEARCH.
I CREATED A UNIT HERE ON BEHAVIOR AND CULTURE INSIGHTS.
WE HAVE IT IN 34 COUNTRIES SERVICE TO REALLY HAVE A GOOD ACCURATE EVIDENCE-INFORMED IDEA.
WHAT'S IN THE MIND OF THE PEOPLE, AND THEN TAILOR SOLUTIONS COMMUNITY BY COMMUNITY.
AND IN A MAJORITY OF THE CASES IT WORKS.
BUT THERE IS NO DOUBT VACCINES WORK.
VACCINES SAVE LIVES AND MANY LIVES, AND IT EVEN HAS THE POTENTIAL TO DECREASE TRANSMISSION IF EVERYONE PARTICIPATES.
IT'S A LONG HARD SLOG AHEAD.
WE THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.
> ANOTHER CRISIS IS ALSO TAKING LIVES.
RECENT EXTREME WEATHER EVENTS AS WE'VE SEEN HAVE LAID BARE THE THREATS POSED BY THE CLIMATE CATASTROPHE.
IN GERMANY AND BELGIUM, 220 PEOPLE LOST THEIR LIVES IN SEVERE FLOODING THIS SUMMER.
IN CHINA, SOME 20 INCHES OF RAIN FELL IN JUST TWO DAYS, KILLING MORE THAN 300 PEOPLE.
AND IN THE NORTHEASTERN UNITED STATES, DOZENS DIED AFTER FLASH FLOODS FROM THE REMNANTS OF HURRICANE IDA ALL THE WAY DOWN SOUTH.
AND WHILE CLIMATE ACTIVISTS RALLIED TO SAVE THE PLANET, MANY OF THEM ARE FACING INCREASING VIOLENCE, A WHOPPING 227 ENVIRONMENTALISTS WERE MURDERED LAST YEAR.
THAT IS ACCORDING TO GLOBAL WITNESS, WHICH SAYS MOST OF THE KILLINGS HAPPENED IN LATIN AMERICA.
I'M JOINED NOW BY ITS C.E.O., MIKE DAVIS, AND BY MEXICAN CLIMATE ACTIVIST MARGARITA CAMPUSANO.
THANK YOU BOTH VERY MUCH FOR JOINING ME.
SO, YOU'VE WRITTEN ABOUT THIS, MIKE DAVIS.
CAN I ASK YOU WHY THIS IS HAPPENING NOW, AND WHY PARTICULARLY AS WE MENTIONED IN PLACES LIKE LATIN AMERICA, INCLUDING MEXICO, WE'VE GOT THE PHILIPPINES, THOSE SEEM TO MAKE THE BULK OF THESE CASES WHERE IT'S VIOLENT FOR THE ACTIVISTS.
YES, THANKS, CHRISTIANE.
SO, IN 2020, THE 227 LAND ENVIRONMENT DEFENDERS WERE KILLED ESSENTIALLY BECAUSE OF RELENTLESS EXPANSION OF PREDATORY RESOURCE EXPLOITATION MODEL WHICH TAKES NO ACCOUNT OF NATIONAL LAWS AND DOES NOT SUBSCRIBE TO INTERNATIONAL NORMS.
AND WHEN PEOPLE GET IN THE WAY, PEOPLE ON THE FRONT LINES STANDING UP FOR THEIR RIGHTS FACE INTIMIDATION, INCARCERATION, ATTACKS AND SOMETIMES EVEN MURDER.
SO THIS IS BOTH A SYMPTOM AND A CAUSE OF THE CLIMATE CRISIS WHICH IS AFFECTING US ALL.
SO, LET ME JUST WRITE, AGAIN, 2020 IN REGARD -- YEAR ON RECORD.
YOU MENTIONED VITAL INTERESTS AND, OF COURSE, THE JOURNALISTS, CLIMATE JOURNALIST PHIL McKIVER WROTE THE FORWARD TO YOUR REPORT.
THEY FIND THEMSELVES ON OR NEAR SOMETHING THAT SOME CORPORATION IS DEMANDING.
THAT DEMAND, THE DEMAND FOR THE HIGHEST POSSIBLE PROFIT, THE QUICKEST POSSIBLE TIME LINE, THE CHEAPEST POSSIBLE OPERATION, SEEMS TO TRANSLATE EVENTUALLY INTO THE UNDERSTANDING SOMEWHERE THAT THE TROUBLEMAKER MUST GO.
> MIKE, DO YOU KNOW AND HAVE YOUR INVESTIGATIONS SHOWN WHO IS RESPONSIBLE?
YOU'VE MENTIONED CERTAIN VESTED INTERESTS.
BUT WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR CARRYING OUT THE VIOLENCE?
IS IT GOVERNMENT, NON-GOVERNMENT, IS IT MILITARY, PARAMILITARY, IS IT INDIVIDUALS TAKING WHAT THEY THINK IS THE LAW INTO THEIR OWN HANDS?
YES, THANKS, CHRISTIANE.
WHAT WE FIND IN MANY OF THESE CASES WHERE WE CAN CLEARLY IDENTIFY AN ASSOCIATION BETWEEN THE KILLING OF A PARTICULAR INDUSTRY AND THE MOST DEADLY ONES TEND TO BE THOSE THAT DEAL WITH AGRI BUSINESS AND MINING, YOU HAVE A NEXUS OF COMPANIES OR COMPANY AND ALSO PEOPLE WHO ARE PART OF OR ASSOCIATED WITH STATE SECURITY FORCES.
BUT IT IS WORTH BEARING IN MIND WHEN WE TALK ABOUT COMPANIES, THOSE ARE ONES WHO ARE MOST LIKELY IMPLICATED, MAYBE LOCAL FIRMS YOU AND I AND MOST OF THE CNN AUDIENCE HASN'T HEARD OF.
THEY ARE INVARIABLY BROUGHT INTO GLOBAL COMMODITY SUPPLY CHAINS.
THEY ARE INDEPENDENT OR INTERNATIONAL FINANCE.
AND THAT'S WHERE MUCH LARGER COMPANIES COME IN AND REALLY NEED TO FACE UP TO THEIR COMPLICITY IN THE KILLINGS.
THAT'S WHY WE'RE CALLING FOR GOVERNMENTS, NOT JUST IN COUNTRIES WHICH ARE DANGEROUS TO DEFENDERS, BUT ALSO COUNTRIES, LARGE ECONOMIC JURISDICTIONS INCLUDING THE EU WHERE MANY LARGE MULTINATIONAL COMPANIES ARE DOMICILED, TO INTRODUCE LEGISLATION WHICH WOULD REQUIRE COMPANIES TO DO CHECKS, DUE DILIGENCE ALONG THE SUPPLY CHAIN TO MAKE SURE THE COMMODITIES WHICH THEY ARE SOURCING ARE NOT BEING PRODUCED IN A WAY WHICH GIVES RISE SO OR IS BENEFITED FROM ATTACKS AND KILLINGS.
SUCH LEGISLATION NEEDS TO BE BACKED WITH CLEAR CRIMINAL LIABILITY AND STRONG PENALTIES.
HAPPILY WE DO HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY FOR SUCH LEGISLATION IN THE E.U. COMING UP LATER THIS YEAR.
WELL, WE'LL WAIT TO SEE WHETHER THAT ACTUALLY PRODUCES THE RESULTS YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.
LET ME TURN TO YOU, MARGARITA CAMPUSANO.
THERE YOU ARE RIGHT ON THE FRONT LINES.
JUST THIS WEEK OR LAST, YET ANOTHER ACTIVIST WAS KILLED IN THE STATE OF -- I THINK IT IS.
LET'S PUT UP THE GRAPHIC WE HAVE THAT SHOWS COLOMBIA, MEXICO, THE PHILIPPINES, OTHER LATIN AMERICAN AND CENTRAL AMERICAN COUNTRIES WHICH ARE THE MOST OFFENDING COUNTRIES.
WHILE WE DO THAT, LET ME ASK YOU, MARGARITA, WHAT YOU HAVE HAD TO EXPERIENCE, HOW YOU'VE SEEN THIS UNFOLD IN MEXICO, AND WHY MEXICO IS NUMBER TWO ON THAT LIST OF ESSENTIALLY KILLING ACTIVISTS LIKE YOUR SELF AND THOSE ON THE GROUND?
YES, THANK YOU VERY MUCH, CHRISTIANE.
WELL, MEXICO, THE VIOLENCE AGAINST ENVIRONMENTAL DEFENDERS IN MEXICO IS A STRUCTURAL PROBLEM THAT HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR DECADES.
NEITHER PAST GOVERNMENTS NOR THIS GOVERNMENT HAVE BEEN ABLE TO STOP IT.
AND WE ACCOMPANY A LOT OF COMMUNITIES, INDIGENOUS AND RURAL COMMUNITIES AROUND THE COUNTRY IN THE DEFENSE OF THEIR LAND, THEIR NATURAL RESOURCES.
AND SOMETIMES WE HAVE ALSO BEEN VICTIMS OF SOME THREATS OR SOME DE-LEGITIMATIZATION EVEN FROM THE PRESIDENT.
THE INDIGENOUS PEOPLE THAT LIVE IN THE COMMUNITY WHERE THE MEGAPROJECTS ARE BEING DONE, THE MAIN VICTIMS OF THESE KIND OF AGGRESSIONS, A DIFFERENT KIND OF AGGRESSION THAT GOES FROM THREATS TO CRIMINALIZATION, KIDNAPPING, AND EVEN MURDER.
THIS YEAR -- LAST YEAR, I'M SORRY, WE REGISTERED 18 HOMICIDES FROM ENVIRONMENTAL DEFENDERS.
AND THIS YEAR WE HAVE COUNTED OR REGISTERED 13 SO FAR.
SO, MARGARITA, YOUR ORGANIZATION WORKS TO LEGALLY REPRESENT INDIVIDUALS, ORGANIZATIONS WHO ARE BEING THREATENED LIKE THIS.
ACCORDING TO MIKE'S REPORT AND GLOBAL WITNESS, I THINK IT'S LIKE 95% OF THOSE, THE OFFENDERS, DON'T RESULT IN PROSECUTION.
HOW IS THIS GOING TO CHANGE?
WHY DO YOU THINK IN YOUR COUNTRY AND OTHERS, BECAUSE I GUESS YOU'VE LOOKED INTO IT, THEY'RE NOT HELD ACCOUNTABLE?
IMPUNITY IS THE WORD OF THE MOMENT.
YES, THAT'S THE MAIN PROBLEM IN MEXICO.
WE HAVE A LOT OF IMPUNITY IN THAT THE CASES ARE NOT FOLLOWED.
NOBODY'S BEEN SENTENCED BECAUSE OF THESE CRIMES.
I THINK IT'S BECAUSE OF THE BIG DISPUTE AMONG THE ECONOMIC INTERESTS AND POLITICAL INTERESTS THAT ARE INVOLVED.
IN ONE HAND YOU HAVE -- WE ARE THE COUNTRY WITH MOST MEGA-DIVERSE IN THE PLANET.
BUT A LOT OF INDIGENOUS AND RURAL PEOPLE LIVE IN THESE COMMUNITIES.
ON THE OTHER HAND, WE HAVE THIS DEVELOPMENT MODEL THAT SEEKS EXTRACTION AND MEGAPROJECTS, AND THESE TWO INTERESTS COLLAPSE AND EVEN IN THE FEDERAL STATES -- FEDERAL LEVEL OR STATE LEVEL, THEY ARE NOT INTERESTED IN PROSECUTING THESE CASES BECAUSE THEY THINK IT'S GOING TO REPRESENT A LOSS OF EMPLOYMENT, A LOSS OF INVESTMENT, AND THAT IS THE PROBLEM WE ARE FACING.
AND SOMETIMES IT'S ALSO BECAUSE IN MANY CASES THERE ARE OFFICIALS INVOLVED IN THESE KIND OF SITUATIONS ALSO.
SO, MIKE, YOU HEAR THAT.
OBVIOUSLY YOU KNOW ABOUT THESE THINGS AND YOU'VE TALKED ABOUT IT IN THE REPORT.
IT LOOKS LIKE FROM THE REPORT THAT THE LEVEL OF KILLINGS IN MEXICO AND THE VIOLENCE, 67% INCREASE IN NUMBER OF ATTACKS FROM 2019 TO 2020.
IN AFRICA, ALMOST DOUBLE THE NUMBER OF KILLINGS COMPARED TO, YOU KNOW, IN 2020 COMPARED TO THE YEAR BEFORE.
SPECIFICALLY, YOU TALKED ABOUT EUROPEAN LAW THAT YOU HOPE IS GOING TO DO SOMETHING, BUT WIDER AROUND THE WORLD, IS THERE ANYTHING THAT YOU WOULD SAY RIGHT NOW IF YOU COULD WAVE A MAGIC WAND THAT COULD ACTUALLY BE DONE INSTITUTIONALLY AND MAKE A DIFFERENCE?
YES, THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.
I VERY MUCH WISH I HAD THAT MAGIC WAND.
I THINK IT IS A CASE OF COUNTRIES WHERE THE LAND ENVIRONMENT IS MOST RISK.
I'M SURE THERE ARE PROTECTIONS IN PLACE, FREEDOM OF ASSEMBLY, FREEDOM TO DEMONSTRATE, CLEAR ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACTS, WHICH WE'VE IMPLICATED IN THE CLAIMS.
AND ALSO RECOGNITION AND ENFORCEMENT OF THE RIGHTS FOR INDIGENOUS PEOPLE AND COMMUNITIES WITH INFORMED CONSENT BEFORE PROJECTS HAPPEN.
ON A MORE GLOBAL LEVEL, WE DO NEED TO SEE, AS MENTIONED, THE MAIN ECONOMY, THE COUNTRY PASSING LEGISLATION WHICH MAKES COMPANIES ACCOUNTABLE.
THE ONE THING WHICH COULD HAPPEN IN THE NEXT FEW MONTHS WOULD BE IN THE COUNTRIES ARE COMING TOGETHER.
IN NOVEMBER, THEY INTRODUCED SUCH LEGISLATION ACROSS THE BOARD AND DO SO WITHIN THE NEXT YEAR OR TWO, THAT WOULD MAKE A BIG DIFFERENCE.
IT WOULD HAVE AN IMMEDIATE -- INTRODUCE AN IMMEDIATE SHIFT TO THE TURN OF THE DEBATE.
THEY WOULD HAVE TO START TAKING NOTICE AND THE ACCOUNTABILITY IS WHAT WE NEED.
MARGARITA, LET ME ASK YOU AGAIN.
YOU'RE RIGHT ON THE FRONT LINES OF THIS.
AND, OF COURSE, EVERYBODY KNOWS, IT'S WRITTEN IN THE REPORT THAT, YOU KNOW, ESSENTIALLY WHAT YOU AND ACTIVISTS AND EVERYBODY IS TRYING TO DO IS DEFEND OUR SHARED HABITAT, OUR SHARED PLANET AND TRY TO MITIGATE THIS CATASTROPHE THAT'S BEEN BUILT UP.
THAT WE CREATED IT AND WE HAVE THE SOLUTION IN TERMS OF HUMANS.
TELL ME JUST AS A PERSONAL FEELING, HAVING DONE THIS FOR SO LONG, YOU KNOW, WHAT KIND OF TOLL IT TAKES ON YOU AND WHAT HOPE DO YOU HAVE?
I MEAN, COP-26 IS COMING UP, THE NEXT BIG INTERNATIONAL CONFERENCE ON THIS.
HOW MUCH HOPE DO YOU HAVE THAT WHERE WE ARE CAN BE REVERSED OR MITIGATED?
WELL, I DON'T THINK THAT A LOT IS GOING TO BE ACHIEVED IN THIS UPCOMING -- BECAUSE THESE HAVE PRESENTED A LOT OF CHALLENGES AND A LOT OF COUNTRIES WILL NOT BE ABLE TO GO BECAUSE THEY ARE IN THE RED LEAGUE.
SECONDLY, I AM HAPPY BECAUSE I CAN SEE WE HAVE BEEN FOLLOWING FOR THE PAST TEN YEARS, AND I SEE THE TEAM OF JUSTICE AND ENVIRONMENTAL DEFENDERS AND CLIMATE JUSTICE IS NOW A MAIN ISSUE THAT WAS NOT LIKE THAT -- I MEAN, TEN YEARS AGO IT WAS ALL ABOUT MITIGATION AND ADAPTATION ONLY.
AND EVERYTHING, IN TERMS OF THE GREENHOUSE, THE GREENHOUSE EMISSIONS.
BUT NOW THEY ARE MORE AND MORE TALKING ABOUT JUSTICE, CLIMATE JUSTICE, IMMIGRATION AND INDIGENOUS COMMUNITIES THAT ARE ALSO PRESENT IN THE CLUB.
SO I AM HAPPY ABOUT THAT.
ALSO THEY ARE INCLUDING MORE AGENDA PERSPECTIVE IN THESE CLUBS.
WELL, THAT'S MY HOPE THAT THIS IS GOING TO BE MOVING FORWARD.
YES, YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.
IT HAS BECOME A MAIN ISSUE, CERTAINLY FOR A VERY LARGE DEMOGRAPHIC, MOSTLY YOUNG PEOPLE.
AND EVEN, MIKE, IT IS AN ISSUE IN GERMANY WHICH IS GOING TO ELECTIONS.
PEOPLE ARE ENERGIZED ABOUT THIS.
IT'S THEIR FUTURE.
YOU PROFILE A CASE IN SOUTH AFRICA, WHERE A LOCAL ACIVIST, SHE WAS PROTESTING I THINK IT WAS A COAL MINING BOARDING THEIR COMMUNITY.
WHAT HAPPENED?
SHE WAS KILLED IN 2020.
YES, THAT'S RIGHT, CHRISTIANE.
IT WAS THE CASE OF AKILE WHO WAS A 65-YEAR-OLD GRANDMOTHER WHO WAS AN ACTIVIST WHEN SHE SAW NEARBY THE IMPACT THE COAL MINE WAS HAVING ON HER COMMUNITY IN TERMS OF THE HEALTH, THE VERY INFRASTRUCTURE OF THE PLACE.
AND SHE BEGAN ORGANIZING THE FELLOW COMMUNITY MEMBERS TO OPPOSE A PROPOSED EXPANSION OF THIS COAL MINE, WHICH WAS BEING PUSHED BY A COMPANY CALLED ANDELE COAL.
IT WAS IN THE CONTEXT OF WORK THAT PEOPLE IN THE COMMUNITY WHO WERE RESISTING THE EXPANSION WERE BEING -- EVIDENCE CAME TO LIGHT AFTER THE KILLING.
AND IN THIS SITUATION, ONE DAY IN OCTOBER LAST YEAR, FOUR MEN CAME TO HER HOUSE.
THEY SPOKE TO HER 11-YEAR-OLD GRANDSON WHO WAS THERE IN THE YARD.
THEY WENT INSIDE AND SHOT HER DEAD IN HER LIVING ROOM.
TO DATE NO ONE HAS BEEN HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR THE KILLING.
THE COMPANY DENIES THEY HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH IT.
THEY ARE HEAVILY IMPLICATED IN THAT SHE WAS MURDERED.
OKAY.
WELL, I GUESS JUST FINALLY TO BOTH OF YOU, WHEN YOU LOOK DOWN THE ROAD -- AND LET ME ASK YOU, MARGARITA.
YOU TALKED ABOUT YOUR HOPE, HOW IT'S BECOME SO FRONT AND CENTER FOR SO MANY PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD.
DO YOU SEE A POINT -- WE'RE ALL WORRIED BECAUSE THERE ARE SO MANY, THERE ARE SO MANY EXPERTS WHO SAY, YOU KNOW, IN THE BLINK OF AN EYE, IT'S GOING TO BE TOO LATE, AND THESE BIG COUNTRIES ARE NOT MEETING THEIR TARGETS.
LIKE CHINA, U.S. AND THE OTHERS.
JUST GIVE ME YOUR SENSE OF HOW MUCH THE ACTIVIST COMMUNITY IS, I GUESS, RESPONSIBLE FOR PUSHING THIS ISSUE FRONT AND CENTER NOW.
IF
I THINK IT'S ESSENTIAL THE FACT THE WORLD IS NOW MORE AND MORE INTERESTED IN WHAT IS HAPPENING WITH THE ENVIRONMENTAL DEFENDERS BECAUSE THEY ARE THE ONES WHO ARE ACTUALLY FIGHTING AND HELPING US TO FIGHT CLIMATE CHANGE.
AND THE FACT THAT NOW THE WORLD IS WATCHING AND PUTTING PRESSURE ON THE GOVERNMENTS, WE NEED THE WORLD TO SEE WHAT IS HAPPENING IN MEXICO SO THE GOVERNMENT FEELS PRESSURE AND PEFEELS OBLIGATED TO FULFILL THE COMMITMENTS WE MADE BEFORE THE U.N. AND THE CLIMATE -- TO THE CLIMATE FIGHT.
SO THAT'S MY HOPE, AND THAT'S WHAT I THINK WOULD HAPPEN.
IF WE DO NOT PROTECT THE ENVIRONMENTAL DEFENDERS, IF THE GOVERNMENT DOES NOT PROVIDE MORE ECONOMIC HUMAN RESOURCES AND GUARANTEES, THE RIGHT TO INFORMATION, PARTICIPATION, AND TO BE INVOLVED IN THE PROJECTS THAT ARE AFFECTING THEIR LAND AND NATURAL RESOURCES, WE CANNOT DO ANYTHING FROM -- WE CAN TALK A LOT, BUT THE THINGS ARE HAPPENING THERE IN THE COMMUNITIES WHERE THE ECO SYSTEMS ARE BEING DAMAGED.
MARGARITA CAMPUSANO, MIKE DAVIS, THANK YOU BOTH VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US ON THIS REALLY IMPORTANT TOPIC, OF COURSE, EXISTENTIAL ONE, AND PROTECTING THE PLANET HAS BEEN A KEY ISSUE FOR THE CALIFORNIA GOVERNOR GAVIN NEWSOM.
AND HE HAS JUST HANDILY BEAT BACK A RECALL CHALLENGE FROM REPUBLICANS WHO WERE POINTING TO HIS CLIMATE AGENDA, AMONG OTHER THINGS.
NEWSOME HAS ALSO STAKED HIS REPUTATION ON MASK AND VACCINE MANDATES, AND THAT'S IN STARK CONTRAST TO REPUBLICAN GOVERNORS WHOSE STATES LIKE TEXAS AND FLORIDA WHO HAVE NOT.
GOP STRATEGIST STEVE SCHMIDT SAID THEIR ANTI-SCIENCE STAND IS A PLOY TO WOO THE FAR-RIGHT.
HE TELLS MICHELLE MARTIN HOW DEMOCRATS SHOULD SEIZE THE DAY.
THANKS, CHRISTIANE.
STEVE, THANKS FOR JOINING US ONCE AGAIN.
IT'S GOOD TO BE BACK WITH YOU.
I WANT TO START WITH HOW DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT'S GOING ON RIGHT NOW?
I MEAN, AS WE ARE SEEKING A NUMBER OF REPUBLICAN GOVERNORS ARE JUST FURIOUS ABOUT BOTH MASK MANDATES AND VACCINE MANDATES, EVEN THOUGH THEIR STATES ARE AMONG THE MOST HEAVILY AFFECTED.
I MEAN, AT ONE POINT, ONE OUT OF SEVEN NEW INFECTIONS WERE COMING OUT OF -- OF COVID-19 INFECTIONS WERE COMING OUT OF FLORIDA AT THE SAME TIME THE GOVERNOR IS SUING JURISDICTIONS FOR IMPOSING MASK MANDATES.
HOW DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT'S GOING ON IN OUR POLITICS RIGHT NOW?
I THINK THE PROPER WAY TO LOOK AT THIS IS PART OF A ONGOING SERIES OF EVENTS AT A VERY MOMENTOUS TIME, IN A MOMENTOUS SEASON.
AND WHAT WE'RE SEEING IS A HOME BREW OF AMERICAN RADICALISM, EXTREMISM, A TYPE OF NEOISM.
FOR SURE, RON DeSANTIS OF HARVARD UNIVERSITY UNDERSTANDS COMPLETELY THE EFFICACY OF THESE LIFE-SAVING VACCINES.
BUT HE HAS GAMBLED, AND HIS GAMBLE IS THAT IT IS EXPEDITIOUS FOR HIM TO CLIMB THE LADDER OF POWER IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, TO POSITION HIMSELF AS AN HEIR TO TRUMP, TO BE WITH REGARD TO COVID, WITH REGARD TO THE MASK MANDATES, TO CATER TO AN EXTREME AND INTENSE BASE THAT HE VIEWS WILL BE DETERMINATIVE IN THE NEXT REPUBLICAN PRIMARY PROCESS.
NOW, SAUDI ARABIA IS A GOOD EXAMPLE OF HOW TO THINK ABOUT THIS.
YOU HAVE THE KING.
THE KING IS TRUMP.
MY VIEW IS TRUMP WILL CERTAINLY BE THE REPUBLICAN NOMINEE IN 2024.
BUT HE WON'T BE AROUND FOREVER.
WHEN YOU LOOK AT ABBOTT IN TEXAS, WHEN YOU LOOK AT DeSANTIS IN FLORIDA, WHEN YOU LOOK AT NOME IN SOUTH DAKOTA.
WHAT YOU SEE NOW IS A BATTLE AMONGST THE CROWN PRINCES AND PRINCESSES FOR CONTROL OF THE MAGA EMPIRE.
AND THE THINGS THAT THEY'RE DOING TO GET TO THE TOP VERY SADLY DEMONSTRATE A PROFOUND CALLOUSNESS TOWARDS LIFE, TOWARDS ANY SENSE OF PUBLIC RESPONSIBILITY, AND IT ALL ACCUMULATES INTO WHAT WE'RE SEEING RIGHT NOW.
LITERALLY IN THE HISTORY OF THE COUNTRY, YOU'VE NEVER SEEN PEOPLE, NO MATTER HOW CORRUPT THEY ARE, CHARGED WITH ACTUAL LIFE AND DEATH RESPONSIBILITY, ABDICATE THAT RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEIR SELF-POLITICAL INTEREST.
SO WE'RE IN A BIDDING WAR RIGHT NOW TO SEE HOW EXTREME IT CAN GET TO GAIN FAVOR IN THIS ERA OF NEGATIVE PARTISANSHIP, WHERE THE LOUDER THE OUTRAGE IS FROM THE MAJORITY, FROM THE MAJORITY OF NORMAL PEOPLE, SUCH AS IT IS IN THIS COUNTRY, THE MORE FUEL THEY WILL HAVE TO ADVANCE THEIR POLITICAL RISE INSIDE OF MAGA.
I WANT TO HEAR MORE ABOUT THE SAUDI ARABIA ANALOGY.
LIKE, WHY DO YOU -- WHY DO YOU SAY THAT?
BECAUSE YOU'RE SAYING SORT OF EDUCATED -- BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE EDUCATED DOESN'T MEAN THEY HAVE THE SAME WORLD VIEW AND THE SAME SENSE OF WHAT THE PURPOSE OF THE NATION IS?
TELL A LITTLE MORE WHY THAT'S THE ANALOGY YOU'VE DRAWN.
WELL, I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT WE STOP PRETENDING.
THAT WE STOP PRETENDING THAT MEN LIKE KEVIN McCARTHY, RON DeSANTIS, GREG ABBOTT, DON'T UNDERSTAND THE EFFICACY OF VACCINES.
DON'T UNDERSTAND BASIC AMERICAN HISTORY.
THAT THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND THE WAFFLE AUTHORITY OF GOVERNMENT AT A FEDERAL LEVEL, AT A STATE LEVEL, AT A COUNTY LEVEL, TO ENFORCE QUARANTINES IF NECESSARY FOR THE PURPOSES OF THE PUBLIC HEALTH, FOR THE PUBLIC GOOD.
THIS IS AS OLD AS THE COUNTRY ITSELF.
THE EXERCISE OF THIS TYPE OF WAFFLE AUTHORITY.
SO LET'S STOP PRETENDING THAT ANY OF THESE PEOPLE THINK IT'S A GOOD IDEA TO TAKE HORSE DE WORMER, OR IT'S OKAY TO INJECT SOME TYPE OF HOUSEHOLD DISINFECTANT.
THEY ALL KNOW THIS IS INSANITY.
EVERY ONE OF THEM KNOWS FOR SURE THERE WASN'T ELECTION FRAUD.
THEY KNOW THAT JOE BIDEN WON THE ELECTION.
YET EVERY TIME THEY SPEAK AND THEY LIE ABOUT THESE THINGS, WE'RE ALL SUPPOSED TO PRETEND THAT THEY'RE MAKING THESE STATEMENTS AS PARTS OF A CONVICTION OR SOME LEVEL OF GOOD FAITH.
AND THE EVIDENCE CONTRARY TO THAT IS THEIR OWN SPOKEN WORDS OVER THE COURSE OF MANY YEARS.
SO, LET'S STOP PRETENDING.
WHAT WE HAVE IN THIS COUNTRY IS AN EXTREMIST MOVEMENT THAT'S AUTOCRATIC, THAT HAS REJECTED CENTRAL PILLARS OF AMERICAN DEMOCRACY.
IT'S ON THE MARCH.
IT'S MORE EXTREME, MORE POWERFUL AND MORE PREPARED FOR VICTORY IN SEPTEMBER OF '21 THAN IT WAS IN JANUARY OF '21 WHEN THE INSURRECTION TOOK PLACE IN THE FIRST PLACE.
TOM RIDGE, ANOTHER FORMER GOVERNOR, PENNSYLVANIA, FORMER HEAD OF THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY, CALLED THIS THE TALIBAN WING OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.
AND SO THE QUESTION IS WHY?
WHY DID THAT TAKE OVER SO QUICKLY?
I THINK YOU DISPUTE THIS, BUT I'M SORT OF ARGUING IDENTITY POLITICS WAS ALWAYS MORE IMPORTANT TO THE PARTY THAN PERHAPS PEOPLE WERE WILLING TO ADMIT.
BY THAT I MEAN WHITE POLITICS.
OR IS IT SOMETHING ELSE?
IS IT A CONTINUUM OF THINGS?
WHAT DO YOU SAY, WHAT DO YOU THINK IT IS?
AT EACH INSTANCE OF BLACK PROGRESS, OR EVEN MORE DEVASTATINGLY WHEN THERE WAS HOPE FOR BLACK PROGRESS IN THE 1870s UNTIL RECONSTRUCTION ENDED AND IT WAS SNUFFED OUT, THERE IS A PROFOUND WHITE LASH, A BACKLASH TO THAT BLACK PROGRESS.
I BELIEVE LARGELY, FOR A LOT OF MY ADULT LIFE, THAT THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT WAS LARGELY OVER, AND IT HAD BEEN ACHIEVED WITH THE ELECTION OF A BLACK PRESIDENT.
I HAD A PROFOUND NAIVETE, AND I'M NOT ALONE IN THIS ABOUT THE BACKLASH THAT CAME FOR HAVING A BLACK PRESIDENT IN THIS COUNTRY.
AND WE'VE SEEN THAT MANIFESTED.
OVER THESE YEARS FROM A WHISPER, AND MAYBE PEOPLE LESS NAIVE FROM ME, WERE ABLE TO HEAR IT BETTER, AND IT WASN'T SUCH A WHISPER TO THEM.
OR EVEN A SIGNAL AT ALL.
BUT NOW WHAT WE SEE IS LOUD, OVERT, CLEAR AS DAY, HUNDREDS OF PIECES OF LEGISLATION THAT ARE SET TO BREAK WHAT I THOUGHT WAS AN UNDERSTANDING THAT WE ALL HAD IN THIS COUNTRY WHETHER YOU WERE REPUBLICAN OR DEMOCRAT, WHICH IS THAT WE ALL GET A SET, REGARDLESS OF OUR CREED, OUR RACE, OUR GENDER, OUR SEXUAL ORIENTATION.
THIS IS WHAT'S BEEN SHATTERED HERE THIS IS WHAT TRUMP HAS BROKEN.
NOW FOR THE PURPOSES OF POWER, YOU SEE PEOPLE CLAIMING THAT FREEDOM REQUIRES THAT SOME OF US DON'T GET TO PARTICIPATE.
THIS IS ALWAYS THE ARGUMENT THAT RIGHT-WING AUTHORITARIANS MAKE.
SO, WE TALKED ABOUT THE DNA OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY AND HOW IT HAS EVOLVED IN RECENT YEARS.
WHAT ABOUT THE DEMOCRATS?
WHAT WOULD YOU SAY IS THE DNA OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY RIGHT NOW?
WELL, THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY IS THE MAJORITY, BUT IT IS A FRAGILE COALITION.
AND I THINK IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND, THAT COALITION WHICH EXTENDS FROM REPUBLICANS WHO ONLY CAST A COUPLE OF VOTES, A SMALL PART OF IT, BUT DETERMINATIVE IN VICTORY ALL THE WAY TO AOC.
WHAT THAT COALITION HAS IN COMMON IS DEMOCRACY.
THE DIGNITY OF THE HUMAN BEING ABOVE THE POWER OF THE STATE.
THAT COALITION PUT NANCY PELOSI IN THE SPEAKER'S CHAIR IN 2018.
IT FELL APART BY 2020.
IT DID NOT HOLD TOGETHER BELOW JOE BIDEN, THOUGH IT CAME BACK BRIEFLY TOGETHER FOR THE TWO SENATE RACES IN GEORGIA.
AND NOW THIS COALITION IS BEING TESTED AND IT WILL BE TESTED BY THE TYPE OF ATTACKS THAT DONALD TRUMP IS MAKING, THAT IS RACE BASED, THAT IS FULL OF ANIMUS, THAT ARE ESSENTIALLY THIS.
TO THOSE WHITE REPUBLICANS, THOSE INDEPENDENT VOTERS, REPUBLICAN MEN, REPUBLICAN WOMEN, WHAT THEY'RE SAYING IS YOU MIGHT NOT LIKE TRUMP, BUT THESE PEOPLE OVER HERE, THE ONES THAT ARE TRYING TO INDOCTRINATE YOUR KIDS WITH CRITICAL RACE THEORY, THEY HATE HIM.
THEY WANT TO TEACH YOUR KIDS TO HATE HIM.
THEY WANT TO TAKE YOUR POSSESSIONS, THEY ARE WAGING A CULTURE WAR, RIGHT, AND THEY ARE INCITING A PASSIONATE MINORITY, THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY, AND WE'LL GET A GOOD LOOK AT THIS IN CALIFORNIA.
I THINK IT'S NOT AS INTENSE, NOT AS FOCUSED AT THE REPUBLICANS ARE AT TAKING POWER RIGHT NOW.
IT'S THE MORE DOCILE OF THE PARTIES.
IT'S NOT FIERCE ENOUGH.
IT HAS NOT DONE A GOOD JOB OF HOLDING THE EXTREMISM BACK OVER THE LAST NINE MONTHS.
SO THIS COALITION, WHILE LARGER, IS MORE VULNERABLE, MORE DIVERSE, MORE DIFFUSE, MORE DISAGREEABLE THAN THE CULT OF PERSONALITY THAT IT'S FACING.
THE NUMBER HAVE SAID IN RECENT DAYS, DEMOCRATS SEEM WORRIED ABOUT DEFENDING REPUBLICANS AND REPUBLICANS WANT TO WIN.
HOW DO YOU -- YOU HAVE TO TAKE STEPS TO FORESTALL THE STEPS.
AT THIS POINT THERE'S REALLY ONLY ONE WAY TO DO IT AND THAT IS THROUGH FEDERAL LEGISLATION.
HOW DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE DEMOCRATS' RELUCTANCE TO ADDRESS THESE ISSUES?
I DON'T UNDERSTAND IT.
THIS WAS INEVITABLE.
IT WAS PREDICTABLE AND THERE'S NO ISSUE THAT SHOULD MAKE DEMOCRATS OR ANY PERSON WHO LOVES DEMOCRACY MORE FURIOUS THAN THIS.
IN RESPONSE TO THE LIE ABOUT THE STOLEN ELECTION, THERE WAS AN ACTUAL VOTE THAT TOOK PLACE WHERE 147 REPUBLICANS TO NULLIFY AND DISENFRANCHISE THE VOTES OF MILLIONS OF BLACK AMERICANS ON THE BASIS OF B.S.
WHAT FOLLOWED NEXT WAS THE FIRST FILINGS OF LEGISLATION, THE INTENT OF EVERY PIECE OF LEGISLATION IS MALICED.
THAT'S BECAUSE NONE OF IT WOULD HAVE EVER BEEN FILED IF DONALD TRUMP HAD WON THE ELECTION.
AND EVERY PIECE IS DESIGNED TO MAKE IT MORE DIFFICULT FOR MINORITIES TO VOTE.
BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY, TO MAKE IT MORE DIFFICULT TO CERTIFY ELECTIONS WHEN ONE SIDE FACTLESSLY CLAIMS FRAUD.
AND SO THIS WAS COMING.
AND THE ONLY WAY TO STOP IT WAS THE REPEAL OF THE FILIBUSTER.
FROM THE VERY BEGINNING, THE REPEAL OF THE FILIBUSTER SHOULD HAVE BEEN FRAMED BY DEMOCRATIC LEADERS AS A MORAL NECESSITY AND AN ACT OF LAST RESORT SHOULD REPUBLICANS DARE TRY TO UNRAVEL THE CIVIL RIGHTS AND VOTING RIGHTS ACTS OF 1964 AND 18965, AND PULL THIS COUNTRY BACK.
AND SO, ACROSS THE BROAD FRONT OF AN UNRELENTING SERIES OF EVENTS, THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY AS A WHOLE HAS DONE A HORRENDOUS JOB CONFRONTING THE GROWING EXTREMISM IN THIS COUNTRY AND FRAMING FOR THE AMERICAN PEOPLE THE TERRIBLE PLACE WHERE IT ALL LEADS.
THE FILIBUSTER IS PART OF THAT.
I'M ASKING YOU WHY.
YOU KNOW THESE PEOPLE WHY DO YOU THINK THAT IS.
I'M NOT A PSYCHOLOGIST.
WHAT I CAN TELL YOU ABOUT POLITICS IS THIS.
RESTRAINT IN THE EXERCISE OF POWER IS AN UNDER APPRECIATED VIRTUE.
BUT THE EXERCISE OF POWER AT NECESSARY TIMES AND TIMES BLUNTLY IS A PREREQUISITE FOR EFFECTIVE LEADERSHIP.
THEY SHOULD PASS ROE V. WADE STATUTORILY.
THEY SHOULD ACT WITH ALL THE POWER THEY HAVE TO BRING THIS PANDEMIC TO AN END BY INCREASING LIABILITY FOR COMPANIES THAT WON'T ACT RESPONSIBLY.
DEMOCRATS WILL SOON BE ASKING THEIR DONORS FOR HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS.
THEY WILL BE ASKING TO ELECT CANDIDATES THEY MUST BE ABLE TO EXPLAIN TO WHAT END.
AND IF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY AND ITS MOST LOYAL CONSTITUENCY BLACK AMERICANS CANNOT COUNT ON THE LEADERSHIP OF THE PARTY TO BE ALL-IN AS A MORAL PROPOSITION, TO DEFEND VOTING AND CIVIL RIGHTS, 150 YEARS ON, FIVE YEARS BEFORE THE 250th ANNIVERSARY OF THIS COUNTRY.
THE VOTERS WILL BE DISAPPOINTED AT A LEVEL THAT IS BEYOND MY ABILITY TO ARTICULATE AND IT WILL HAVE THE EFFECT IN THE END OF PROPELLING A FASCIST MOVEMENT BACK INTO CONGRESSIONAL POWER, IN MY VIEW, IN THIS COUNTRY.
I KNOW YOU'VE BEEN ASKED THIS BEFORE, BUT, YOU KNOW, LINCOLN ADVISER TWEETED EARLIER THIS YEAR, THE MISSION IS CLEAR, DESTROY THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.
I KNOW YOU'VE BEEN ASKED ABOUT THE TACTICS AND I HAVE TO ASK THIS AGAIN, KIND OF FIGHT FIRE WITH FIRE APPROACH.
PART OF YOUR MESSAGE TO FOLKS, YOU'RE GETTING SCREWED AND THESE ARE THE PEOPLE DOING THE SCREWING.
BUT THE FORMER PRESIDENT'S MESSAGE TO THE PEOPLE HE SUPPORTS YOU'RE GETTING SCREWED AND I'M GOING TO FIX IT.
WHERE DO WE GO FROM HERE AS A COUNTRY?
I THINK THE COUNTRY IS IN A LOT OF TROUBLE.
I WANT TO SPEAK TO WHAT I'LL CALL THE BOTH SIDER-ISM WHICH IS INHERENT IN THE FRAME OF THE QUESTION.
IN FACT, CRITICAL RACE THEORY ISN'T BEING TAUGHT TO KIDS IN HIGH SCHOOLS IN AMERICA.
ONE POLITICAL PARTY IS NOT LYING ABOUT A LIFESAVING VACCINE.
ONE POLITICAL PARTY IS NOT PARTLY RESPONSIBLE FOR HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DEAD AMERICANS BECAUSE OF THOSE LIES.
ONE POLITICAL PARTY HASN'T WHITEWASHED THE INSURRECTION ON 1/6.
ONE POLITICAL PARTY IS NOT A DANGER TO AMERICAN DEMOCRACY.
THERE IS NOT ASYM SYMMETRY BETW THE TWO SIDES.
I NEED TO LINGER HERE FOR A SECOND.
THERE WAS A MEETING THAT TOOK PLACE IN THE WHITE HOUSE THAT JARED KUSHNER CHAIRED, I'M SURE WITH COFFEE AND DOUGHNUTS AND ALL THE GOOD STUFF.
AND THEY DECIDED IN THAT MEETING THAT THERE WOULDN'T BE A COVID STRATEGY FOR THE BLUE STATES BECAUSE THEY COULD PIN IT ON THE BLUE STATE GOVERNORS.
IT'S EVIL.
IT KILLED HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY.
WE'RE ABOUT TO ENTER INTO THE CHILDREN'S PANDEMIC.
SO ANYTHING THAT WE CAN DO, GRAB PEOPLE BY THE PROVERBIAL COLLAR, BY THE NECK, HIT THEM IN THE HEAD, GET THEIR ATTENTION, MAKE THEM LAUGH, MAKE THEM CRY, MAKE THEM THINK, ANYTHING, TO GET THEM TO WAKE UP AND UNDERSTAND THE DANGER THAT WE FACE IN THIS COUNTRY FROM EXTREMISTS AND IN THE FIGHT FOR AMERICAN DEMOCRACY.
EXHAUSTION IS OUR ENEMY.
THE IDEA THAT THERE IS NOT A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO SIDES, EVERYBODY IS EQUALLY CORRUPT, EVERYONE IS EQUALLY MALICED.
AND IT'S JUST NOT TRUE.
STEVE SCHMIDT, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.
THANK YOU.
> THROWING DOWN THE GAUNTLET, DEFENDING DEMOCRAT KRA SKI.
FINALLY TONIGHT, SOME OF BROADWAY'S BIGGEST SHOWS HAVE FINALLY REOPENED AFTER THE PANDEMIC LOCKDOWN.
HAMILTON, THE LION KING, WICKED, AND CHICAGO ARE ALL WELCOMING AUDIENCES BACK, PROVIDED THEY HAVE BEEN VACCINATED AND THEY DO WEAR MASKS.
AND AUDIENCES CAN HARDLY CONTAIN THEIR EXCITEMENT.
[ CHEERS AND APPLAUSE ]
NO ONE MOURNS THE WICKED AS THE SONG GOES, BUT FOR THEATER LOVERS, THE LONG HIATUS ON BROADWAY WON'T BE EASILY DISMISSED.
WICKED'S ORIGINAL GLENDA GAVE A SURPRISE SPEECH BEFORE LAST NIGHT'S SHOW.
AND ONE FAN GOT SO EMOTIONAL, HE SAID HE FELT HIS SOUL LEAVE HIS BODY.
AND THERE WAS ALSO AN APPEARANCE BY THE CURRENT KING OF BROADWAY HIMSELF.
♪ ♪ ♪ I WANNA BE A PART OF IT, NEW YORK, NEW YORK ♪
LIN-MANUEL MIRANDA OUTSIDE THE THEATER SHOWING HAMILTON AND TAKING A LEAF FROM A HOLLYWOOD SONG BOOK AND PAYING TRIBUTE TO NEW YORK, PROVING THAT EVEN WHEN THE LIGHTS GO DARK, THE SHOW WILL ALWAYS FIND A WAY TO GO ON.
> AND THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.
REMEMBER, YOU CAN FOLLOW ME AND OUR SHOW ON TWITTER.
THANKS FOR WATCHING AMANPOUR AND COMPANY ON PBS, AND JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.
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