Read Full Transcript EXPAND
>>> HELLO, EVERYONE.
WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY."
HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.
EXPLODING PAGERS KILL SEVERAL AND WOUND THOUSANDS.
WHAT THIS MEANS FOR THE ONGOING ISRAEL/HEZBOLLAH CONFLICT.
THEN -- >> WHEN YOU DON'T HAVE OTHER POSITIVE SOURCES OF IDENTITY, YOU RETREAT TO NEGATIVE SOURCES OF IDENTITY.
>> DEMOCRATIC SENATOR CHRIS MURPHY EXPLAINS WHY HE BELIEVES THERE IS A CRISES OF COMMUNITY AND IDENTITY.
PLUS -- >> WE ARE TIRED OF THE FALSE NARRATIVE.
WE WANT TO MAKE IT APPEAR AS IMMIGRANTS ARE USED AS SCAPEGOATS.
THEY ARE BLAMED FOR ALL THE PROBLEMS IN THE UNITED STATES.
>> ACTIVIST AND DIRECTOR PAMELA YATES SHARE THEIR DOCUMENTARY "BORDER LAND" WITH THE SECRET BORDER INFRASTRUCTURE ACROSS AMERICA.
ALSO AHEAD, PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN TIM NAFTALI SPEAKS TO WALTER ISAACSON ABOUT THIS FRACTURED MOMENT IN AMERICAN HISTORY.
♪♪♪ >> Announcer: "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, IS CAN DAS KING WEIR.
THE SYLVIA A.
AND SIMON B.
PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM, THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LAYLA AND MICKEY STRAUSS, MARK J. BLESHNER, SETON J. MELVIN, THE PETERSON AND JOAN GANSS COONEY FUN, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, JEFFREY KATZ, AND BETH ROGERS, AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.
THANK YOU.
>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
EVERYONE.
I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.
IN LEBANON THE HEALTH MINISTRY IS CALLING ON CITIZENS TO DUMP THEIR PAGERS AND IT'S CALLING ON HOSPITALS TO BE ON HIGH ALERT AFTER DEVICES FROM MEMBERS OF HEZBOLLAH SUDDENLY EXPLODED ACCORDING TO LEBANESE MEDIA.
NOW SEVERAL PEOPLE, AT LEAST EIGHT, HAVE BEEN KILLED.
THOUSANDS HAVE BEEN INJURED INCLUDING IRAN'S AMBASSADOR TO LEBANON ACCORDING TO IRANIAN STATE MEDIA.
HEZBOLLAH, IRANIAN BACKED, SAID IT HOLDS ISRAEL RESPONSIBLE FOR THE ATTACK AND VOWS RETRIBUTION.
JUST YESTERDAY THEY SAID THEY WOULD STEP UP THE ATTACK ON HEZBOLLAH.
THE ITS HOSPITALS ARE REPORTEDLY OVERWHELMED WITH INCOMING CASUALTIES.
THE AUTHOR OF "BLACK WAVE" AND A CONTRIBUTING WRITER OF "THE ATLANTIC."
KIM, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
WHAT DO YOU THINK THIS IS ABOUT?
>> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, IT'S ABOUT ABSOLUTE CHAOS AND MAYHEM ACROSS LEBANON.
THESE PAGERS WENT OFF AT ABOUT 3:30 IN THE AFTERNOON ACROSS BEIRUT AND OTHER CITIES IN THE SOUTH AND THE VALLEY AND EVEN SYRIA.
YES, THEY TARGETED CLEARLY HEZBOLLAH OPERATIVES.
NINE PEOPLE WERE KILLED, 2800 INJURED, BUT THE SCENES OF AMBULANCES RACING AROUND THE CITY, THE MAYHEM THAT PEOPLE HAVE BEEN THROUGH, THE PANIC AS PEOPLE WONDERED WHETHER THIS WAS TARGETED OR GENERALIZED, WHETHER THEY SHOULD GET RID OF THEIR PHONES, ET CETERA, YOU KNOW, THIS IS A CITY AND COUNTRY THAT HAS BEEN THROUGH A LOT OVER THE LAST YEAR BUT ALSO THE LAST FEW YEARS.
SO THAT IS THE STATE OF THE MOOD OF THE COUNTRY.
IT WAS CLEARLY A TARGETED ATTACK BY ISRAEL AGAINST HEZBOLLAH OPERATIVES WHO HAD GONE LOW TECH BECAUSE THEY'VE BEEN THE TARGET OF ASSASSINATIONS OVER THE PAST TEN MONTHS AND THEY'VE BEEN INSTRUCTED TO DUMP THEIR iPHONES, GET OFF THE INTERNET, DISCONNECT THEIR CCTVs.
AS FAR AS WE UNDERSTAND FROM INITIAL REPORTS, THIS WAS A NEW BATCH OF PAGERS THAT THE GROUP HAD RECEIVED AND HOW EXACTLY THEY WERE DETONATED, I LEAVE THAT TO THE EXPERTS.
THE NEXT QUESTION, OF COURSE, IS WHAT COMES AFTER THIS.
>> WELL, EXACTLY.
SO THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT, I'M JUST GOING TO READ THEIR COMMENT, HAS BLAMED ISRAEL FOR THE EXPLOSIONS CONDEMNING THE ATTACK AS CRIMINAL ISRAELI AGGRESSION.
OBVIOUSLY ISRAEL HAS NOT COMMENTED, BUT THE LEBANESE GOVERNMENT IS WHAT I MEANT TO SAY HAS BLAMED ISRAEL.
THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT HAS NOT COMMENTED.
BUT THIS COMES A DAY AFTER ISRAEL, YOU KNOW, BASICALLY WARNED, SAID THAT IT WAS GOING TO BE POTENTIALLY STEPPING UP ITS, YOU KNOW, CONFLICT, ITS CAMPAIGN WITH HEZBOLLAH.
IS THAT WHAT WE THINK IS HAPPENING, THAT THIS IS A PRECURSOR MAYBE TO A MUCH BIGGER EXPLOSION OF WAR BETWEEN THE TWO SIDES?
>> THERE ARE SEVERAL WAYS OF LOOKING AT THIS IN MY VIEW.
IT'S EITHER A WAY TO TRY TO DEMONSTRATE TO HEZBOLLAH THAT ISRAEL KNOWS EVERYTHING ABOUT THEM, THAT IT CAN GET TO THE SONS OF THEIR LEADERS BECAUSE SEVERAL OF THEM WERE TARGETED, SONS OF HIGH RANKING HEZBOLLAH OFFICIALS, AND TO TRY, IN ESSENCE, TO COW THEM INTO SUBMISSION AND MAKE CLEAR THAT AN INCREASE OF THEIR ATTACKS AGAINST ISRAEL WILL BE MET WITH EVEN BE FURTHER VIOLENCE OR IT COULD BE A PRELUDE TO AN ISRAELI LARGE SCALE CAMPAIGN AGAINST ISRAEL AT A TIME WHEN HEZBOLLAH IS FACING THE CHAOS OF THIS LATEST VERY SCIENCE FIX LIKE ALMOST TARGETED ATTACK AGAINST ITS OPERATIVE.
IT'S VERY CLEAR THAT OVER THE LAST FEW WEEKS TENSION HAS BEEN RISING AND THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF WARNINGS ABOUT AN ESCALATION ON THE BORDER BETWEEN LEBANON AND ISRAEL WITH VERY STERN WARNINGS FROM THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION TO ISRAEL NOT TO CONSIDER A WIDE SCALE CAMPAIGN AGAINST LEBANON BECAUSE IT CANNOT ACHIEVE MILITARILY WHATEVER IT THINKS IT CAN ACHIEVE.
THE ONLY OUTCOME HERE IS DIPLOMATIC.
>> AND, KIM, BRIEFLY OBVIOUSLY LEBANESE HEZBOLLAH IS IRAN BACKED.
IT APPEARS, ACCORDING TO IRANIAN MEDIA, THAT THE IRANIAN AMBASSADOR WAS ONE OF THOSE WOUNDED.
NOW THIS JUST ADDS TO THE NUMBER OF IRANIAN OFFICIALS AND IRANIAN SUPPORTED OFFICIALS WHO HAVE BEEN TARGETED, ASSASSINATED, NOT TO MENTION THE HEAD OF HAMAS INSIDE IRAN OVER THE SUMMER.
IS THAT A CONCERN AGAIN TO WAIT AND SEE WHETHER IRAN RESPONDS AND JOINS IN THIS WAR?
>> CHRISTIAN, OVER THE LAST TEN MONTHS IT'S BEEN VERY CLEAR THAT IRAN AND HEZBOLLAH, WHATEVER YOU THINK OF THEM, WHATEVER CRITICISM WE MAY ADDRESS, WE MAY HAVE OF THEM, ARE NOT INTERESTED IN A WIDER REGIONAL WAR AND THEY'VE BEEN -- THEY'VE BEEN SHOWING PRAGMATIC RESTRAINT, LET'S CALL IT THAT WAY.
I KNOW THAT'S NOT WHAT IT FEELS LIKE FOR RESIDENTS OF NORTHERN ISRAEL, BUT YOU CAN JUST IMAGINE WHAT AN ALL OUT WAR COULD LOOK LIKE.
ISRAEL HAS CLEARLY UNDERSTOOD THAT IT CAN KEEP PUSHING THESE RED LINES AND IF IT DOESN'T FACE, YOU KNOW, HEAVY FIRE BACK, IT KEEPS PUSHING THOSE.
THIS IS WHAT I CALL A GAME OF MIDDLE EAST ROULETTE, AND IT'S A DANGEROUS ONE BECAUSE AT SOME POINT ISRAEL WILL GO TOO FAR AND IT WILL IGNITE REGIONAL CONFLAGRATION THAT BRINGS IN HEZBOLLAH, SYRIA, IRAN, OF COURSE EVENTUALLY THE UNITED STATES.
THAT'S WHAT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION IS DEEPLY >> AGAIN, THE SECRETARY OF STATE IS TRAVELING TO THE REGION.
NOT SURE HIS EXACT STOP, BUT OBVIOUSLY ATTEMPTING TO GET A CEASE-FIRE BETWEEN ISRAEL AND HAMAS AS WELL.
JUST VERY QUICKLY, JUST DESCRIBE, YOU KNOW, THERE'S A CALL FOR CITIZENS TO DONATE BLOOD.
I MEAN, DESCRIBE, YOU KNOW, HOW BAD IT IS ON THE STREETS.
>> WELL, RIGHT NOW IT'S FAIRLY QUIET, BUT IT WAS VERY CHAOTIC FOR A FEW HOURS.
WE HEAR SIRENS WAILING IN SOUTHERN LEBANON.
WE'VE SEEN DESCRIPTIONS OF PEOPLE RUNNING DOWN THE STREETS, BEATING THEIR CHESTS, CRYING.
THESE PAGERS WENT OFF EVERYWHERE.
HEZBOLLAH OPERATIVES AREN'T NECESSARILY WALKING AROUND IN UNIFORM.
THEY MAY BE IN CIVILIAN CLOTHES, THEY'RE BUYING GROCERIES, AT HOME WITH THEIR CHILDREN.
A LITTLE GIRL WAS KILLED IN THE MACAO VALLEY.
SUDDENLY YOU HAVE HUNDREDS OF EXPLOSIONS GOING OFF ACROSS THE COUNTRY AND PEOPLE UNSURE OF WHAT HAS BEEN HAPPENING.
IN A COUNTRY THAT HAS BEEN IN A STATE OF WAR IN THE LAST YEAR, THAT HAS BEEN THROUGH AN ECONOMIC COLLAPSE AND THROUGH THE LARGEST NONNUCLEAR EXPLOSION IN MODERN HISTORY JUST FOUR YEARS AGO.
THE STATE OF CHAOS AND FEAR IN THE COUNTRY IS CONSIDERABLE, AND NOW OF COURSE ALSO WAITING TO SEE AGAIN WHAT NEXT.
>> RIGHT.
WELL, KIM, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR OBSERVATIONS AND YOUR ANALYSIS.
FROM BEIRUT.
>>> NOW WITH FEWER THAN 50 DAYS TO GO UNTIL THE U.S. ELECTION, INVESTIGATORS ARE STILL LOOKING INTO THE BEGUNMAN WHO WAS DISCOVERED NEAR FORMER PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP'S GOLF COURSE ON SUNDAY.
DEMOCRATS HAVE BEEN RIDING HIGH FOLLOWING THE ABC NEWS PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE BETWEEN HARRIS AND TRUMP.
NOW AS POLITICAL VIOLENCE ONCE AGAIN REARS ITS HEAD IN THE U.S., SOME POLITICIANS ARE LOOKING FOR DEEPER ANSWERS TO TRY TO FIX AMERICA'S DEEP PROBLEMS.
ONE OF THEM IS SENATOR CHRIS MURPHY, DEMOCRAT FROM CONNECTICUT.
FOLLOWING LAST WEEK'S DEBATE, I SPOKE TO HIM ABOUT SOLUTIONS FOR THE DEEPLY FRACTURED NATION.
I SPOKE BEFORE THE LATEST APPARENT ASSASSINATION ATTEMPT.
MURPHY EXPLAINED WHY HE THINKS TODAY'S CHALLENGES HAVE MORE TO DO WITH COMMUNITY AND IDENTITY.
SENATOR CHRIS MURPHY, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.
>> I WANT TO START BY ASKING YOU YOUR REVIEW OF THE DEBATE BETWEEN THE TWO PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATES.
OBVIOUSLY ALL THE PUNDITS, THE POLLS, WHETHER IN THE UNITED STATES OR EVEN HERE ABROAD HAVE DECLARED KAMALA HARRIS THE CLEAR WINNER.
IS IT IN THE AREAS WHERE SHE NEEDS TO WIN?
>> SHE DID EXTRAORDINARILY WELL.
YOU KNOW, SHE WAS VERY SPECIFIC AND DIRECT ABOUT HER PLANS TO TRY TO LIFT UP THE MIDDLE CLASS, GROW THE ECONOMY FROM THE MIDDLE OUT.
DONALD TRUMP AFTER ABOUT 20 MINUTES WAS INCOHERENT, REALLY CONFUSED, UNABLE TO OFFER ANY OF HIS OWN SPECIFIC PLANS.
THE QUESTION IS, YOU KNOW, WHETHER THIS SPOKE TO THE GROUP OF VOTERS THAT NEEDS TO KNOW MORE ABOUT KAMALA HARRIS.
THEY CERTAINLY HEARD ABOUT HER PLANS, HER SPECIFIC PLANS TO FIX THE BORDER, SPECIFIC PLAN TO ADDRESS THE COST OF LIVING BUT MAYBE WHAT IS MORE IMPORTANT IS THAT THEY GOT TO SEE ONE PRESIDENT ON THE STAGE AND SOMEONE WHO WAS IN THE MIDDLE OF A TWO-HOUR MELTDOWN.
KAMALA HARRIS LOOKED COMMANDING.
HE SHE WAS IN COMMAND OF THE STAGE.
YOU WATCHED AND SAID THAT'S A PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.
I DO THINK THAT'S A QUESTION THAT A LOT OF VOTERS HAD.
THEY DO KNOW WHO SHE IS BUT THEY'RE NOT TERRIBLY FAMILIAR WITH HER AS A HUMAN BEING, AS A PERSON.
THEY SAW SOMEBODY ON THAT STAGE WHO WAS READY TO LEAD.
THAT MAY MAKE THE DIFFERENCE FOR A SMALL NUMBER OF VOTERS.
>> OKAY.
THAT'S ONE POINT THAT YOU ALL ARE GRASPING ON TO.
THE ISSUE FOR YOU, OF COURSE, IS THAT THIS PERSON IS AT LEAST EQUAL IN THE TOTAL VOTERS AND VERY, VERY COMPETITIVE IN SWING VOTERS WITH YOUR CANDIDATE.
SO WHAT IS IT ABOUT HIM, AND I ASK YOU THIS BECAUSE YOU'VE BEEN DOING A LOT OF THINKING AND A LOT OF WRITING ABOUT HOW DEMOCRATS NEED TO MEET THE MOMENT.
SUM UP WHY IT IS THAT SUCH A MASSIVE PROPORTION OF AMERICANS VIEW DONALD TRUMP AS A BETTER LEADER?
>> WELL, I DON'T KNOW THAT I HAVE THE ANSWER FOR THAT QUESTION, BUT I THINK WE DO HAVE TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT WE LIVE IN A WORLD TODAY WHERE THE ECONOMY IS GETTING BETTER.
THE UNEMPLOYMENT RATE IS AS LOW AS IT CAN BE.
CRIME IS GOING DOWN.
GDP IS RISING AND THERE'S STILL A WHOLE BUNCH OF PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY WHO REPORT FEELING MORE UNHAPPY THAN EVER BEFORE.
THEY REPORT FEELING DISCONNECTED FROM THEIR COMMUNITY, LEVELS OF SELF-REPORTED LONELINESS ARE THROUGH THE ROOF.
THERE ARE A LOT OF AMERICANS WHO ARE EMPLOYED BUT WHO FEEL LIKE THEY DON'T HAVE MEANING AND PURPOSE EVERY DAY WHEN THEY WAKE UP.
AND I THINK WE'VE GOT TO HAVE A BROADER CONVERSATION IN THIS COUNTRY ABOUT WHY THAT IS AND HELP GIVE MERNS ACCESS TO POSITIVE MEANING AND IDENTITY.
THE MAGA MOVEMENT IS AN IDENTITY.
IT IS A SOURCE OF CONNECTION AND MEANING FOR PEOPLE, AND WHEN YOU DON'T HAVE OTHER MORE POSITIVE SOURCES OF IDENTITY, YOU RETREAT TO NEGATIVE SOURCES OF IDENTITY, DEMAGOGUES WHO OFFER YOU A WORLD VIEW IN WHICH THEY EXPLAIN YOUR TROUBLES AS BEING CAUSED BY PEOPLE WHO LOOK AND SOUND DIFFERENT FROM YOU.
SO THIS IS A BIG CONVERSATION FOR THE COUNTRY TO HAVE.
IT'S A BIG CONVERSATION FOR THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY TO HAVE, BUT I THINK SOMETIMES WE GET LOST BY THAT I GO OUR ONLY JOB IS TO TRY TO INCREASE THE HEALTH OF THE ECONOMY.
STUDIES SHOW THAT WHAT IT REALLY COMES DOWN TO IT, HAPPINESS IS NOT JUST YOUR CAREER, HOW MUCH MONEY YOU'RE MAKING, HAPPINESS IS THE QUESTION OF HOW GOOD ARE YOUR RELATIONSHIPS.
DO YOU FEEL PART OF A COMMUNITY, SOMETHING BIGGER THAN YOURSELF?
I THINK WE'VE DONE A REALLY BAD JOB DELIVERING THAT KIND OF PURPOSE AND MEANING TO PEOPLE, EVEN AS WE'VE DONE A BETTER JOB OF MAKING SURE THAT PEOPLE HAVE RISING WAGES AND HAVE JOBS THAT THEY CAN GO TO EVERY DAY.
>> YOU BASICALLY CALLED IT, GIVEN ALL THE SUCCESSES YOU'VE TALKED ABOUT, YOU'VE CALLED THE DISAFFECTION A METAPHYSICAL PROBLEM, A SPIRITUAL CRISIS.
YOU HAVE SUGGESTED, IF I CAN SUM UP, A PRO FAMILY.
PRO COMMUNITY, KIND OF ECONOMIC NATIONALISM.
WHAT EXACTLY DO YOU MEAN?
ISN'T THAT VERY MUCH LIKE YOUR OPPONENTS?
THAT'S WHAT REPUBLICANS ARE ALWAYS TALKING ABOUT, PRO FAMILY, PRO COMMUNITY AND NATIONALISM WHEN IT COMES TO THE ECONOMY?
>> THE IRONY IS THAT REPUBLICANS, IN PARTICULAR THE MAGA MOVEMENT, DO TALK IN SOME OF THOSE TERMS.
WHEN THEY'RE IN POWER, THEY DO THE EXACT OPPOSITE.
I DO THINK PEOPLE ARE NOT SATISFIED BEING PART OF A GLOBAL ECONOMY.
THEY WANT TO BE PART OF A UNIQUE AMERICAN ECONOMY.
THEY WANT TO BE PART OF A DISTINCT UNIQUE PLACE.
THEY DON'T LIKE THAT OUR CULTURE HAS BECOME FLATTENED.
THEY DON'T LIKE THAT OUR DOWNTOWNS HAVE BECOME EVISCERATED.
THE ONLY PLACE YOU CAN BUY THINGS FROM ARE TRANS NATIONAL RETAIL OUTLETS LIKE AMAZON OR GOOGLE.
THEY WANT LOCALNESS TO MATTER AGAIN.
REPUBLICANS TALK ABOUT THESE ISSUES, BUT THEN WHEN THEY GET POWER, WHAT DO THEY DO?
THEY PASS ANOTHER MASS SELF TAX CUT FOR BILLIONAIRES.
THEY DON'T DO ANYTHING TO BREAK UP CONSOLIDATED POWER.
JOE BIDEN AND KAMALA HARRIS HAVE BEGUN TO REINVEST IN ANTITRUST POLICIES.
THEY'VE GONE AFTER THOSE BIG CONSOLIDATED ECONOMIC POWERS.
KAMALA HARRIS WAS ON STAGE SAYING I HAVE A PLAN TO BREATHE LIFE BACK INTO SMALL BUSINESSES SO YOUR DOWNTOWNS COME BACK TO LIFE, SO YOU CAN FEEL GOOD ABOUT BELONGING TO A PLACE, WHICH IS WHERE A LOT OF PEOPLE FOUND MEANING AND IDENTITY FOR DECADES AND DECADES.
YES, THE RHETORIC, YOU KNOW, IS FAMILIAR BECAUSE WE HEAR IT ON THE RIGHT, BUT THE POLICY IS ACTUALLY BEING PUT INTO PLACE RIGHT NOW BRING JOE BIDEN AND KAMALA HARRIS.
I THINK THEY SHOULD TALK MORE ABOUT WHAT THEY'RE DOING TO BREAK UP CONSOLIDATED POWER, TO GIVE POWER TO FAMILIES AND COMMUNITIES BECAUSE IT'S REAL.
>> OKAY.
SO TALK MORE ABOUT WHAT THEY'RE DOING.
LAY IT OUT MORE ABOUT WHAT THEY'RE DOING, NOT JUST FOR DEMOCRATS BUT ALSO FOR MAJORITY REPUBLICAN STATES AND STAKEHOLDERS, BUT THEN HOW DO YOU ACTUALLY CHANGE THE FUNDAMENTALS.
WE'RE TALKING, I THINK WHAT YOU'RE SAYING, IS EITHER REVERSING OR MAJORLY TWEAKING 30 PLUS YEARS OF ECONOMIC POLICY WHICH HAS MOVED AWAY FROM ON SHORE MANUFACTURING AND THE HIGH STREET ECONOMY THAT YOU TALK ABOUT.
HOW DO YOU ACTUALLY REVERSE THAT?
AND IS THAT WHAT THE DEMOCRAT FACE WANTS?
>> THAT SYSTEM I BROADLY REFER TO AS THE NEOLIBERAL ECONOMIC SYSTEM WHERE YOU BASICALLY BELIEVE THAT ANYTHING THAT WAS GOOD FOR THE MARKETS WAS GOOD FOR WORKERS AND CONSUMERS, THAT AMERICA WOULD BE BETTER OFF PART OF THIS BIG, UNCHECKED, UNFETTERED GLOBAL MARKETPLACE.
ALL OF THAT WAS WRONG.
IN FACT, WE DO NEED A UNIQUE AMERICAN ECONOMY.
WE DO NEED INDUSTRIES THAT ARE UNIQUE TO THIS COUNTRY.
WE DO NEED HEALTHY LOCAL COMMUNITIES AND GOVERNMENT POLICY HAS TO HELP DELIVER ON THAT.
WHAT ARE AMERICANS FEELING?
AMERICANS ARE FEELING A SENSE OF POWERLESSNESS.
THEY WORK HARDER AND THEY DON'T GET ANYTHING IN RETURN.
THE PEOPLE THAT MAKE DECISIONS ABOUT THEIR ECONOMIC LIFE, ABOUT THEIR SORT OF CULTURAL AND COMMUNITY NORMS, THEY DON'T LIVE IN THEIR COMMUNITIES ANY LONGER.
THEY'RE GLOBAL CITIZENS WHO RUN THESE BIG PRIVATE EQUITY FIRMS, THESE BIG HEDGE FUNDS.
BREAKING UP CONSOLIDATED CORPORATE POWER IS REALLY IMPORTANT, AND THAT'S WHAT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION IS DOING.
OUR HOSPITALS SHOULD BE OWNED BY PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN OUR COMMUNITY.
THEY SHOULDN'T BE OWNED BY A PRIVATE EQUITY FIRM IN LONDON OR NEW YORK AND THE HARRIS AND BIDEN ADMINISTRATION IS DOING THAT.
THEY ARE RIGHT NOW AS WE SPEAK MAKING IT HARDER FOR THESE BIG PRIVATE EQUITY FIRMS TO BUY UP OUR HOSPITALS.
THAT'S A PERFECT EXAMPLE OF WHAT WOULD MAKE PEOPLE FEEL BETTER.
THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IN THEIR LIFE, THEIR HEALTH CARE BEING OWNED LOCALLY.
WHAT ELSE IS THE ADMINISTRATION DOING?
WELL, THEY'RE ADDRESSING THE PROBLEM OF LONELINESS, DISCONNECTION.
PEOPLE ARE FEELING REALLY LONELY TODAY.
HOW DO WE HELP PEOPLE FEEL MORE CONNECTED?
ONE WAY IS TO FEEL THAT YOU'VE GOT A COMMUNITY OF WORKERS THAT ARE SUPPORTING YOUR COMMUNAL EFFORTS TO GET HIGHER WAGES AND BETTER BENEFITS.
THE FIRST PRESIDENT TO WALK ON A PICKET LINE, JOE BIDEN.
HE SEES UNIONS NOT JUST AS A WAY TO RAISE THE PROSPECTS AND THE FORTUNES OF WORKERS BUT ALSO AS A WAY TO BUILD COMMUNITY WHERE PEOPLE FEEL CONNECTED TO A HIGHER PURPOSE.
SO THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION'S DOING THE SORT OF BEGINNING WORK OF DELIVERING POWER BACK TO COMMUNITIES AND FAMILIES, TRYING TO CREATE POLICIES THAT MAKE IT EASIER FOR YOU TO FIND CONNECTION, BUT IT'S JUST THE BEGINNING.
SO THE NEXT PRESIDENT HAS TO BUILD ON THIS WORK.
>> CAN I ASK YOU, DO YOU THINK DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATES HAVE TO SOUND A LITTLE BIT MORE LIKE REPUBLICANS?
BECAUSE YOU CERTAINLY ARE SOUNDING A LITTLE BIT REPUBLICAN RIGHT NOW IN TERMS OF TAKING THAT MANTRA.
AS I SAID, THEY HAVE BECOME APPARENTLY THE PARTY OF THE WORKING CLASS, WHICH THE DEMOCRATS USED TO BE.
>> THEY HAVEN'T.
IN FACT, IF YOU LOOK AT THE POLL, LOW INCOME VOTERS STILL VOTING FOR DEMOCRATS WAY MORE OFTEN BE THAN THEY'RE VOTING FOR REPUBLICANS.
BUT, YES, WE NEED TO EXPOSE REPUBLICANS FOR THE FRAUDS THAT THEY ARE.
THE ONLY MAJOR DOMESTIC ACHIEVEMENT OF THEIR FOUR YEARS IN POWER WHEN DONALD TRUMP WAS IN THE WHITE HOUSE WAS A TAX CUT, 80 TO 90% OF THE BENEFIT WENT TO BILLIONAIRES, CORPORATIONS, AND MILLIONAIRES.
SO THEY TALK ABOUT STANDING UP FOR REGULAR WORKING PEOPLE BUT THEY DON'T DO A GREAT JOB OF IT.
HERE'S THE TOUGH PART FOR THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY.
IF WE WANT TO BE THE PARTY OF THE WORKING CLASS, WE OUGHT TO BE THE PARTY OF THE WORKING CLASS.
THAT MEANS EXPANDING OUR TENTS.
THAT MEANS BEING WILLING TO BRING INTO OUR FOLD PEOPLE WHO MAY NOT AGREE WITH US ON EVERY SINGLE CULTURAL AND SOCIAL ISSUE.
I CARE DEEPLY ABOUT THE ISSUE OF GUN CONTROL.
I CARE DEEPLY ABOUT REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS, BUT I AM WILLING TO BRING PEOPLE INTO OUR COALITION WHO MIGHT NOT LINE UP WITH ME ON ALL THOSE ISSUES BECAUSE IF THEY ARE WILLING TO BREAK UP CONSOLIDATED POWER, IF THEY ARE WILLING TO SUPPORT A HIGHER MINIMUM WAGE, THEN HAVING THEM INSIDE THE COALITION GIVES ME A BETTER CHANCE TO CONVINCE THEM TO JOIN US ON OTHER ISSUES.
THAT'S TOUGH FOR THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY.
>> THAT'S TOUGH BECAUSE IT'S TOUGH AND SOMETIMES IT PRODUCES THE OPPOSITE, TO WITT, YOUR HARD WORK ACROSS THE AISLE ON THE IMMIGRATION THING.
YOU TRIED TO WORK WITH REPUBLICANS, LEAD DEMOCRATIC NEGOTIATIONS ON THE BIPARTISAN BILL THAT THEN TRUMP ESSENTIALLY TORPEDOED BECAUSE HE DIDN'T WANT IT.
THIS IS WHAT VICE PRESIDENT HARRIS SAID ABOUT IT AT THE DEBATE.
>> THAT BILL WOULD HAVE PUT MORE RESOURCES TO ALLOW US TO PROSECUTE TRANS NATIONAL CRIMINAL ORGANIZATIONS FOR TRAFFICKING IN GUNS, DRUGS, HUMAN BEINGS, BUT YOU KNOW WHAT HAPPENED TO THAT BILL?
DONALD TRUMP GOT ON THE PHONE, CALLED UP SOME FOLKS IN CONGRESS AND SAID, KILL THE BILL.
YOU KNOW WHY?
BECAUSE HE PREFERRED A RUN ON A PROBLEM INSTEAD OF FIXING A PROBLEM.
>> SO, SENATOR, JUST QUICKLY, IF YOU TRY TO MEET THEM WHERE THEY ARE AND THEN THEY TURN AROUND AND SAY, NO THANK YOU, THEN WHAT?
>> WELL, THEN YOU TAKE THAT QUESTION TO THE ELECTORATE.
THAT'S WHAT KAMALA HARRIS IS DOING.
SHE'S SAYING VERY PLAINLY WHAT HAPPENED.
WE WORKED WITH REPUBLICANS TO TRY TO PASSIFY PARTISAN TOUGH BORDER SECURITY BILL.
WE GOT THEM TO AGREE WITH US BUT THEN DONALD TRUMP KILLED IT BECAUSE HE WANTS THE BORDER TO BE A MESS.
WHAT YOU'VE SEEN SINCE THAT HAPPENED IS THAT MORE AND MORE VOTERS ARE STARTING TO SEE DEMOCRATS AS THE BETTER PARTY ON THE QUESTION OF BORDER SECURITY.
THE GAP BETWEEN THE TWO PARTIES USED TO BE ABOUT 20 POINTS.
WHEN YOU ASKED VOTERS WHO DO YOU THINK IS BETTER ON BORDER SECURITY AND IMMIGRATION, NOW THAT GAP IS AROUND TEN POINTS BECAUSE PEOPLE HAVE SEEN REPUBLICAN PARTIES EXPOSED.
I THINK THIS IS A PRETTY TRIED AND TRUE FORMULA.
REACH OUT AND TRY TO GET ACCOMMODATION AND COMPROMISE ON IMPORTANT ISSUES.
IF THEY REFUSE, THEN EXPOSE THAT FOR THE ELECTORATE AND LET THE ELECTORATE MAKE UP THEIR MIND AS TO WHETHER THEY WANT A PARTY THAT'S JUST OBSTRUCTIONISTS IN CHARGE, AS I'VE SAID OVER AND OVER AGAIN, TALKS THE TALK ON THINGS THAT MATTER TO WORKING CLASS VOTERS BUT DON'T ACTUALLY DELIVER OR DO THEY WANT THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY WHO NOT JUST CARES ABOUT THESE ISSUES BUT IS WILLING TO MAKE COMPROMISE AND DELIVER.
>> BIG, BIG ISSUES.
BIG THINKING.
BIG THOUGHTS.
THANK YOU SO MUCH, SENATOR MURPHY.
>> THANK YOU.
>>> BUT IN THE INTERVENING WEEKS INSTEAD OF CALMING THIS POLITICAL MOMENT, THE RHETORIC IS BEING PUSHED BY DONALD TRUMP AND J.D.
VANCE AROUND IMMIGRATION HAS BECOME EVEN MORE HEATED.
TRUMP'S BASELESS CLAIMS THAT IMMIGRANTS ARE ABDUCTING AND EATING PETS IN SPRINGFIELD, OHIO, IS LEADING TO AN INCREASE IN THREATS IN THAT SMALL TOWN.
IN THIS TENSE ENVIRONMENT IT'S EASY TO LOSE SIGHT OF THE PEOPLE WHO ARE IMPACTED THE MOST BY THE IMMIGRATION CRISIS.
IN A REVEALING NEW DOCUMENTARY CALLED "BORDER LAND" DIRECTOR PAMELA YATES EXPOSES WHAT'S DEEPLY ENTRENCHED IN AMERICAN SOCIETY.
PAMELA, GABRIELA, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
LET ME START BY ASKING YOU, PAMELA YATES, WHAT MADE YOU -- WHAT WAS THE TRIGGER TO CREATE AND PRODUCE THIS FILM, "BORDER LAND"?
>> I WAS REALLY DISTURBED BY FAMILY SEPARATION AT THE BORDER.
PEOPLE COMING INTO THE UNITED STATES AND CHILDREN BEING RIPPED FROM THE ARMS OF THEIR PARENTS.
AND SO I WANTED TO MAKE A FILM NOT JUST ABOUT THAT BUT ABOUT THE AMERICAN RESPONSE.
WHO WERE THE AMERICANS THAT WERE DEFYING THE INHUMANE AND CRUEL POLICIES OF OUR GOVERNMENT AND TRYING TO HELP PEOPLE COMING INTO THIS COUNTRY?
TRYING TO WELCOME IMMIGRANTS COMING INTO THIS COUNTRY?
AND IT BEGAN THERE WITH HUMANITARIAN AID WORKERS.
AS I WAS ON THE BORDER WORKING WITH HUMAN ANY TARYN AID WORKERS, I MET PEOPLE AT THE NETWORK FOR HUMAN RIGHTS AND THEY HAD A WAY OF ORGANIZING AMONG IMMIGRANTS AND IMMIGRANT FAMILIES TO CLAIM THEIR RIGHTS, TO UNDERSTAND THEIR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS AS PEOPLE IN THE UNITED STATES AND TO ORGANIZE AND STRENGTHEN THEIR COMMUNITIES FOR BETTER LIVES.
AND THAT WAS REALLY THE ORIGIN.
THAT WAS HOW I MET GABRIELA AS WELL.
>> GABRIELA, LET ME ASK YOU THEN.
WHEN YOU WERE APPROACHED BY PAMELA, I DON'T KNOW, WAS THERE A RISK FOR YOU OF TAKING PART IN SUCH A PUBLIC OBVIOUSLY THING THAT WAS GOING TO BE BROADCAST AND HOPEFULLY SEEN BY A LOT OF PEOPLE?
>> I DIDN'T THINK ABOUT THAT.
I DIDN'T THINK ABOUT THE RISK.
I THOUGHT ABOUT HOW PEOPLE NEEDED TO KNOW THAT THEY HAVE RIGHTS IN THIS COUNTRY, ESPECIALLY AFTER I WAS A FORMER UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANT AND SUFFERED MANY ABUSES, COMING FROM EVEN LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES.
I THOUGHT MY STORY NEEDED TO BE TOLD OUT BECAUSE I WAS NOT ONLY REPRESENTING MYSELF, I WAS REPRESENTING THE MILLIONS OF UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS THAT LIVE IN THIS COUNTRY.
>> GABRIELA, YOU YOURSELF ARE SEPARATED FROM YOUR HUSBAND, RIGHT?
BECAUSE YOUR CHILDREN WERE BORN IN THE UNITED STATES, THEY ARE AMERICAN CITIZENS.
YOU, AS YOU JUST SAID, YOU'RE DOCUMENTED, BUT NOT YOUR HUSBAND.
>> YES.
WE GOT SEPARATED BACK IN 2007.
MY HUSBAND WAS STOPPED BY THE SHERIFF FOR GOING FIVE MILES OVER THE SPEED LIMIT AND WHEN HE WAS ASKED TO PRODUCE A STATE IDENTIFICATION, HE COULD NOT PRODUCE IT BECAUSE HE WAS UNDOCUMENTED, THE SHERIFF CALLED IMMIGRATION AUTHORITIES.
WHAT HAPPENED IS THAT MY HUSBAND WAS SENT TO PRISON FOR ALMOST SIX YEARS.
AND BACK THEN I WAS UNDOCUMENTED AND BECAME A SINGLE MOM LEFT TO FEND FOR MYSELF AND OUR THREE U.S. CITIZEN CHILDREN.
IT WAS A VERY TOUGH SITUATION.
I DECIDED I NO LONGER WANTED TO BE A VICTIM, I NO LONGER WANTED TO CONTINUE CRYING FOR MY SITUATION BUT THAT I NEEDED TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT TO CHANGE THE COURSE OF MY LIFE.
SO I BECAME A HUMAN RIGHTS PROMOTER AND SPREAD THE INFORMATION WITH OTHER FAMILIES THAT WERE GOING THROUGH THE SAME SITUATION AS ME.
>> IT'S REALLY INTERESTING, OF COURSE, BECAUSE IT'S -- PAMELA, THIS FILM IS DONE FROM A SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT ANGLE.
SO WHAT I WANT TO DO IS PLAY ONE OF THE CLIPS YOU SENT US.
THIS PARTICULARLY CONCERNS BASICALLY EXAMINING I.C.E.
AND ALL ITS HUBS, NOT JUST AT THE BORDER BUT AROUND THE COUNTRY.
HERE'S THIS CLIP.
>> I.C.E.
IS EVERYWHERE.
THE BORDER IS EVERYWHERE.
IF YOU WANT TO LOOK AT THEM, USE THE TOOLS THEY USE TO LOOK AT YOU.
SO WE EXTRACTED THE DATA AND VISUALIZED IT.
THE WHEN THAT FIRST IMAGE CAME TO US, WE KNEW THAT THAT IS A STORY WE NEED TO TELL.
I.C.E.
IS EVERYWHERE.
IT'S NOT JUST IN THE U.S./MEXICO BORDER, BIG MET TROPP POE LIS LIKE NEW YORK, MIAMI, L.A., NO, IT'S EVERYWHERE.
IN OHIO, MISSOURI, UTAH.
IT'S EVERYWHERE THAT I.C.E.
ATTENTION KEEPS OUR FAMILIES IN DETENTION.
>> I.C.E.
IS THE IMMIGRATION AND CUSTOMS ENFORCEMENT OPERATION.
TELL ME WHAT THAT MEANS, THE FACT THAT IT'S EVERYWHERE DOES WHAT?
>> WHAT IT MEANS IS THAT ANYONE WHO IS IN THIS COUNTRY WITHOUT DOCUMENTS IS AFRAID 24 HOURS A DAY, 7 DAYS A WEEK AND THAT FEAR IMMOBILIZES THEM BUT THE BORDER NETWORK FOR HUMAN RIGHTS AND WHAT THE FUND DOES IS TRY TO MITIGATE THAT FEAR, TRY TO TEACH PEOPLE WHAT THEIR RIGHTS ARE AND THEY'RE TRYING TO BUILD A MOVEMENT IN THE SHADOW OF WHAT WE CALL THE BORDER INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX OF WHICH I.C.E.
IS THE CENTER OF.
IT MEANS THAT YOU CAN WALK DOWN YOUR STREET AND PASS YOUR NAIL PARLOR AND GET A CUP OF COFFEE AT DUNKIN' DONUTS AND RIGHT NEXT TO THAT IS AN I.C.E.
DETENTION CENTER AND YOU MIGHT NOT KNOW THAT.
SO AT ANY MOMENT IF YOU DON'T HAVE DOCUMENTS IN THE UNITED STATES, YOU ARE AN UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRATION, YOU CAN BE CAPTURED, INCARCERATED AND DEPORTED.
THAT FEAR IS EVERYWHERE.
I WAS TRYING TO THINK WHAT CAN WE CONTRIBUTE TO THE STORY ABOUT IMMIGRATION, AND I FOUND IT IN A GROUP OF IMMIGRANT Ph.d. PROFESSORS WORKING AT COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY.
THEY CALL THEMSELVES THE XP MOVEMENT.
THEY'RE HUMANISTS THAT GATHER INFORMATION ABOUT THE BORDER INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX.
THEY VISUALIZED THE DATA.
WE FOUND OUT IN THIS FISCAL YEAR ALONE, 2024, THE ESTIMATED COST IS $25 BILLION.
SO WHO AND WHAT AND WHERE IS THIS MONEY GOING IN CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICTS USED TO -- WHICH IS MAKING PROFIT AND BUILT ON THE BACK OF THE SUFFERING OF IMMIGRANTS?
>> I WANT TO ECHO ON WHAT PAMELA JUST SAID.
THE LAWS THAT ARE APPLIED AT THE BORDER AFFECT US ALL.
WHEN WE SUPPORT LEGISLATION AGAINST IMMIGRANTS WHO ARE JUST RECENTLY CROSSING THE BORDER, WE NEED TO UNDERSTAND WE'RE SUPPORTING LEGISLATION AGAINST THE MILLIONS OF IMMIGRANTS WHO HAVE ALREADY LIVED IN THIS COUNTRY FOR DECADES AND WHO HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO REGULAR RISE THEIR IMMIGRATION STATUS.
WE MIGHT AFFECT NEIGHBORS, FRIENDS, FAMILY MEMBERS.
VERY OFTEN I HEAR THE PHRASE THAT THE IMMIGRATION SYSTEM IS BROKEN.
I'VE COME TO THE REALIZATION THAT THE IMMIGRANT -- IMMIGRATION SYSTEM WAS DESIGNED TO WORK JUST LIKE THAT BECAUSE IT ALLOWS THE BORDER INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX, WHICH IS THE LARGE COMPANIES, TO BENEFIT FROM THE SUFFERING OF IMMIGRANTS.
IF THEY ARE ABLE TO SELL THE FALSE NARRATIVE THAT WE HAVE CHAOS AND MAYHEM AT THE BORDER, THEN IT'S EASIER FOR THEM TO SELL THEIR PRODUCTS.
WE ARE TIRED OF THAT FALSE NARRATIVE AND WE WANT TO MAKE IT CLEAR THAT IMMIGRANTS ARE USED AS SCAPEGOATS.
THEY ARE BLAMED FOR ALL THE PROBLEMS IN THE UNITED STATES, AND WE ARE BOMBARDED DAILY WITH THE FALSE AND IMMORAL IDEA THAT THERE ARE NO JOBS OR DECENT WAGES AND ACCESS TO FREE MEDICAL CARE WHICH IS POSSIBLE IN THE RICHEST NATION IN THE WORLD, IT'S BECAUSE OF IMMIGRANTS.
THE TRUTH IS THE BORDER AND IMMIGRANTS ARE NOT THE PROBLEM BUT INEQUALITY IS OUR PROBLEM.
THIS IS A DIRECT ATTACK NOT ONLY ON IMMIGRANTS BUT ON EVERY POOR PERSON LIVING IN THIS COUNTRY WHO ARE MORE THAN 140 MILLION PEOPLE SURVIVING IN THE RICHEST COUNTRY IN THE NATION.
THIS IS IMMORAL.
WE DO NOT HAVE A MONEY PROBLEM, WE HAVE A PROBLEM OF LACK OF VALUES AND PRINCIPLES IN OUR LEADERS FROM BOTH BODIES.
>> BEFORE I GET TO ANOTHER CLIP I WANT TO BUILD ON WHAT GABRIELA IS JUST SAYING, AND THAT IS OBVIOUSLY EVERYBODY KNOWS BECAUSE IT'S GONE VIRAL AROUND THE WORLD, YOU KNOW, TRUMP AND WHAT HE SAID ON THE DEBATE ABOUT HAITIAN IMMIGRANTS IN, I DON'T KNOW, OHIO EATING HOUSEHOLD PETS, HOW DOES THAT OBVIOUSLY DEBUNKED STATEMENT, IT'S A LIE, THERE'S NO EVIDENCE, PAMELA, HOW DID YOU THINK THAT KIND OF, YOU KNOW, NARRATIVE FROM THOSE WHO WOULD BE PRESIDENT OR THAT WHO WOULD BE PRESIDENT AFFECTS, YOU KNOW, THE WHOLE SITUATION YOU'RE TRYING TO EXPOSE?
>> EXACTLY.
WELL, I THINK THAT IMMIGRATION HAS ALWAYS BEEN REALLY IMPORTANT, BUT RIGHT NOW IT'S PARTICULARLY CONSEQUENTIAL.
AND IN OUR FILM WE TALK ABOUT HOW ALL AUTHORITARIANS OR AUTHORITARIAN GOVERNMENTS TRY TO PAINT THE IMMIGRANTS AS THE OTHER.
AND THAT AFFECTS NOT ONLY IMMIGRANTS, BUT IT AFFECTS ALL OF US BECAUSE IT AFFECTS OUR VALUES AND IT AFFECTS OUR FREEDOMS HERE IN THE UNITED STATES.
>> GABRIELA, I WANTED TO GIVE YOU AN OPPORTUNITY TO REACT TO WHAT TRUMP SAID BECAUSE THIS IS THE WAY, FOR BETTER OR FOR WORSE, THE MAIN LEADERS, WHETHER IT'S IN THE UNITED STATES OR AROUND THE WORLD, CERTAINLY HERE IN EUROPE, DEMONIZE IMMIGRANTS.
WHAT WENT THROUGH YOUR HEAD WHEN YOU HEARD TRUMP SAYING THAT ABOUT HOUSEHOLD PETS?
>> I'M NOT SURPRISED ANYMORE ABOUT THE FALSE ACCUSATIONS EX-PRESIDENT TRUMP MAKES AGAINST IMMIGRANTS.
I AM CERTAINLY CONCERNED ABOUT THOSE ACCUSATIONS BEGINNING TO SPREAD AND PEOPLE BELIEVING THEM.
WE WENT FROM BEING RAPISTS AND CRIMINALS AND STEALING JOBS AND NOW WE ARE ALSO EATING PETS IN OUR PEOPLE'S COMMUNITIES.
THAT JUST TELLS YOU A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHAT PAMELA WAS SAYING BEFORE, WE ARE BEING PORTRAYED AS DIFFERENT.
WE'RE NOT THE SAME.
SO IT'S EASIER TO DEHUMANIZE SOMEBODY THAT IS NOT LIKE YOU, THEY'RE DIFFERENT.
THEY'RE -- THEY'RE -- THEY'RE DANGEROUS.
SO I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT THAT WE UNDERSTAND THAT WE MUST NOT BELIEVE EVERYTHING WE SEE ON THE INTERNET AND THAT FACT CHECKING IS -- NEEDS TO BE PART OF OUR DAILY ACTIVITY.
IT'S DEMONIZING IMMIGRANTS, KILLING IMMIGRANTS.
>> I'M GOING TO PLAY ANOTHER CLIP FROM THE FILM.
THIS IS YOU AGAIN.
AS YOU MENTIONED, YOU'RE NOW A LEGAL RESIDENT.
YOU DID LIVE IN LIMBO FOR MANY, MANY YEARS.
YOU BROUGHT OR FOUGHT, RATHER, SEVERAL I.C.E.
ATTEMPTS TO DEPORT YOU.
>> THE JUDGE IS REVIEWING THE REPORT PREPARED BY I.C.E.
STATING THAT MY HOUSE WAS USED TO STASH UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS AND THAT I WAS TRANSPORTING THESE UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS WITHIN THE COUNTRY.
THIS REPORT WAS PREPARED SEVERAL YEARS AGO EXACTLY RIGHT AFTER WE HELD PROTESTS OUTSIDE THE DETENTION CENTER AND THEY DIDN'T LIKE IT.
WHETHER THEY LIKE IT OR NOT, THEY CAN'T DEPORT ME FOR THAT, AND THEY KNOW THAT, BUT THEY CAN PUT TOGETHER A REPORT THAT'S GOING TO MAKE ME LOOK BAD AND SAY, YOU KNOW WHAT, WE'RE NOT DEPORTING YOU FOR THAT.
YOU'RE MORE THAN WELCOME TO PROTEST AND DO WHATEVER YOU WANT.
THAT'S YOUR FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHT.
OH, BUT YOU KNOW WHAT, WE CAN DEPORT YOU FOR THESE THINGS.
>> GABRIELA, DID YOU -- I MEAN, THROUGH A LAWYER OR WHATEVER -- TRY TO CONFRONT THEM ABOUT THIS?
WHAT DID THEY SAY?
>> IT WAS ALL FALSE ACCUSATIONS.
THEY DIDN'T KNOW WHAT TO INVENT BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY I WAS ATTACKING THE STATUS QUO.
IT'S NOT VERY USUAL THAT UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS ARE SPEAKING UP AND STANDING UP AND DEFENDING THEIR RIGHTS LIKE I AM -- LIKE I DO.
I THINK I -- I'M ALWAYS FIGHTING FOR JUSTICE, DIGNITY AND RIGHTS AND I'M ABLE TO SEE PEOPLE IN THEIR FACE AND TELL THEM WHEN THEY'RE WRONG.
ONE OF THE THINGS I DO WANT TO MENTION IS THEY COULD NOT PROVE ANY SINGLE ACCUSATION AND THAT'S WHY I WAS ABLE TO WIN.
I WAS DOING A LOT OF PRAYER AND I WAS DOING WHAT I HAD TO DO.
AND FOR THE MESSAGE THAT I WANT TO TELL TO OTHER SOCIAL FIGHTERS, HUMAN RIGHTS OFFENDERS, IS WE CANNOT LIVE IN FEAR OF WHAT MIGHT HAPPEN TO ME IF I SPEAK UP.
>> PAMELA, PERHAPS IT'S AN ACCIDENT, MAYBE IT'S NOT, IT'S COMING OUT.
IT'S TAKEN FIVE YEARS TO DO THIS FILM.
IT'S COMING OUT RIGHT AHEAD OF THIS ELECTION.
IMMIGRATION IS A MAJOR ISSUE FOR BOTH PARTIES.
IT'S NOT JUST TRUMP SAYING WHAT HE SAYS.
BACK THEN PRESIDENT OBAMA WAS CALLED THE DEPORTER IN CHIEF.
NOW YOU SAW THE DEMOCRATS GO AND AGREE TO A VERY, VERY CONSERVATIVE BILL BY ONE OF THE MOST CONSERVATIVE REPUBLICANS.
THAT WAS TORPEDOED BY TRUMP FOR ALL SORTS OF PERSONAL POLITICAL REASONS BUT WHERE'S THE HOPE IN YOUR MIND FOR A DIFFERENT APPROACH TO IMMIGRATION?
>> WELL, I'M A HUMAN RIGHTS DEFENDER MYSELF AND I USE CINEMA AS MY HUMAN RIGHTS PRACTICE.
WE'RE GOING TO OPEN THIS FILM IN 26 U.S. CITIES AND THE IDEA IS TO GET PEOPLE ACTIVE, ACTIVATED AND TALKING ABOUT WHERE THIS CAN GO.
YOU KNOW, WE HAVEN'T HAD IMMIGRATION REFORM IN THE UNITED STATES SINCE 1990 AND THAT WE REALLY, REALLY NEED.
BUT WE WANT TO START A CONVERSATION THAT MAY BE A LITTLE BIT OUTSIDE OF THE MAINSTREAM, AND THAT CONVERSATION CONCERNS HOW WE CAN TAKE A DIFFERENT APPROACH, HOW WE CAN TAKE A RADICAL AND NEW APPROACH.
IN THE TOWN THAT I LIVE IN, MENTAL HEALTH SMALL COMMUNE -- IN THE SMALL COMMUNITY THAT I LIVE IN THERE ARE A LOT OF PLACES THAT ARE SHUT DOWN BECAUSE THERE'S NOBODY TO WORK IN THEM.
THAT'S TRUE ALL OVER THE COUNTRY.
WE NOW KNOW THAT IMMIGRANTS AND ESSENTIAL WORKERS HAVE BEEN THE LIFE BLOOD OF OUR ECONOMY AND REALLY KEPT OUR ECONOMY AFLOAT DURING THE PANDEMIC.
AND THAT'S WHAT WE'D LIKE THE FILM TO QUESTION, TO ADDRESS AND TO GATHER PEOPLE AROUND.
I MEAN, I THINK THAT WHEN YOU MEET GABRIELA IN "BORDER LAND," IN THE FILM, YOU'LL UNDERSTAND MORE IN DEPTH WHAT I MEAN.
SHE'S AN INCREDIBLE LEADER.
SHE'S A LOCAL LEADER.
SHE'S A NATIONAL LEADER.
THERE ARE OTHER PROTAGONISTS IN THE FILM THAT ARE ENGAGING IN HOW IDEAS ABOUT WHO IMMIGRANTS ARE AND WHAT IMMIGRANTS CAN DO AND WILL DO AND CONTRIBUTE TO THIS COUNTRY.
>> WELL, IT COULDN'T BE MORE TIMELY AND MORE VITAL SO, PAMELA YATES AND GABRIELA, THANK YOU SO MUCH.
>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.
>>> NOW THIS ELECTION SEASON WE CAN CONFIDENTLY SAY IS LIKE NO OTHER.
WITH TRUMP'S INDICTMENTS, BIDEN BOWING OUT, KAMALA HARRIS STEPPING IN, AND NOW AN APPARENT SECOND ASSASSINATION ATTEMPT AT TRUMP AT HIS FLORIDA GOLF COURSE.
TIMOTHY NAFTALI TALKS TO WALTER ISAACSON ABOUT THIS WEEKEND'S TROUBLING EVENT AND WHAT IT SAYS ABOUT AMERICAN POLITICS TODAY.
>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.
WELCOME TO THE SHOW.
>> THANK YOU.
>> IT'S BEEN AN INCREDIBLE POLITICAL YEAR, ALL SORTS OF TWISTS AND TERMS, BUT THE MOST UNSETTLING HAVE BEEN THESE VIOLENT TERMS.
WE'VE SEEN THE SECOND ASSASSINATION ATTEMPT AGAINST PRESIDENT TRUMP -- FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP.
TELL ME WHAT WAS GOING THROUGH YOUR HEAD WHEN YOU HEARD THAT THIS WEEK.
>> WELL, INITIALLY IT WAS, OH, GOD, NOT AGAIN.
IT WAS TRAUMATIC THE FIRST TIME SOMEONE ATTEMPTED TO ASSASSINATE PRESIDENT TRUMP IN -- FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP IN JULY WAS TRAUMATIC.
IT WAS REMINISCENT OF THE WORST MOMENTS IN OUR POLITICAL HISTORY.
AND FOR SOMETHING SIMILAR, FORTUNATELY THE ATTEMPTED ASSASSIN DID NOT GET A SHOT OFF THIS TIME.
SOMETHING SIMILAR THAT OCCURRED WAS EQUALLY TRAUMATIC.
IT RAISED QUESTIONS IN MY MIND, FIRST OF ALL, ABOUT THE SECRET SERVICE'S ABILITY TO PROTECT MR. TRUMP BUT IT ALSO REMINDED ME OF HOW WE LIVE IN A TINDER BOX, POLITICAL TINDER BOX.
OUR POLITICAL ENVIRONMENT IS SO FRAUGHT, IT IS SO TOCKS THAIK DISTURBED MINDS.
WE DON'T KNOW A LOT ABOUT MR. RALPH BUT THE INFORMATION COMING OUT ABOUT THIS SECOND WANNA BE ASSASSIN IS HE'S TROUBLED, ANOTHER TROUBLED INDIVIDUAL.
WE LIVE IN A CLIMATE THAT IS SO FRAUGHT THAT IT LITERALLY PROVOKES THE TROUBLED AMONG US TO DO TERRIBLE THINGS.
>> I JUST WANT TO CLARIFY AS WE SPEAK THAT THE INVESTIGATION IS ONGOING INTO A SUSPECTED ASSASSINATION ATTEMPT.
THE CLIMATE IS FRAUGHT BUT IT'S THE POLITICAL CLIMATE.
THESE FEED OFF A DESPERATE AND INTRACTABLE POLARIZATION IN WHICH APOCALYPTIC RHETORIC IS USED.
LET'S START WITH THE RHETORIC.
IS THAT ONE OF THE THINGS ADDING TO THIS?
>> I SPENT A LITTLE BIT OF TIME STUDYING THE KENNEDY YEARS AND IN TRYING TO FIGURE OUT LEE HARVEY OSWALD A LONG TIME AGO PEOPLE DIDN'T HAVE THE -- DIDN'T UNDERSTAND THE CONCEPT OF SELF-RADICALIZATION, BUT AS A RESULT OF 9/11 AND OF THE CHALLENGE AGAINST INTERNATIONAL TERRORISM, PEOPLE HAVE BEGUN TO UNDERSTAND HOW INDIVIDUALS CAN BE RADICALIZED BY WHAT THEY READ AND WHAT THEY SEE.
AND WE HAVE EXPERIENCED TECHNOLOGICAL CHANGE THAT YOU'VE WRITTEN SO NOTABLY ABOUT, WALTER.
WE HAVE SEEN EVEN MORE OPPORTUNITIES AND MORE PLATFORMS WITH THE KINDS OF INFORMATION THAT WILL PUSH PEOPLE WHO ARE ALREADY UNWELL OVER THE EDGE TO ACTUALLY USE -- TO ACTUALLY CREATE THE VIOLENCE THAT THEY'RE WATCHING ON SCREEN.
AND I'M NOT A PSYCHOLOGIST AND I DON'T PLAY ONE ON TELEVISION, BUT IF YOU LOOK AT THE HISTORY OF MANY OF THE WOULD BE AND SUCCESSFUL ASSASSINS, POLITICAL ASSASSINS IN OUR COUNTRY, MANY OF THEM WERE SELF-RADICALIZED.
SO THE LANGUAGE WE USE IN THE POLITICAL SPHERE TO DESCRIBE THOSE WE DISAGREE WITH MATTERS.
>> LET ME QUOTE YOU THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP SAID THAT THE WOULD BE ASSASSIN ACTED ON HIGHLY INFLAMMATORY LANGUAGE OF THE DEMOCRATS, AND HE'S BLAMED IT ON THE DEMOCRATS.
J.D.
VANCE SAID NO ONE HAS TRIED TO KILL KAMALA HARRIS IN THE LAST TWO MONTHS.
AND TWO PEOPLE HAVE NOW TRIED TO KILL DONALD TRUMP.
I THINK IT'S THAT THE LEFT NEEDS TO TONE DOWN THE RHETORIC AND CUT THIS CRAP OUT.
TO WHAT EXTENT IS IT SOMETHING THAT'S HAPPENING MORE ON THE DEMOCRATIC SIDE, THIS DEMONIZATION?
OR IS IT A BOTH SIDES PHENOMENON?
>> I THINK THE EFFORT TO SPIN THIS HORRIFIC ENVIRONMENTAL PROBLEM IN ONE DIRECTION OR ANOTHER ONLY MAKES IT WORSE.
WE NEED ONLY ASK MR. PELOSI ABOUT THE CONSEQUENCES OF EXTREME RHETORIC ON THE RIGHT.
SO LET'S JUST -- COULD WE HAVE A -- THE POLITICAL VERSION OF A CEASE-FIRE ABOUT SAYING WHICH SIDE IS MORE RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS LANGUAGE?
THERE IS NO DOUBT IN MY MIND THAT IN JULY IT WAS IMPORTANT FOR DEMOCRATS AS WELL AS REPUBLICANS TO TONE DOWN THE LANGUAGE.
THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES MADE I THINK A VERY POINTED AND EXCELLENT SPEECH WHERE HE TALKED ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE OF BRINGING DOWN THE VOLUME, BRINGING DOWN THE TEMPERATURE.
AND I WOULD -- I WOULD ARGUE THAT SORT OF AT THE CORE OF THE HARRIS CAMPAIGN IS A DESIRE TO TURN THE PAGE.
AND SHE'S USING, PARTICULARLY HER RUNNING MATE, IS USING HUMOR TO TRY TO WEAKEN DONALD TRUMP'S APPEAL.
THE WHOLE CONCEPT OF THE WEIRDNESS FACTOR.
SO I WOULD ARGUE THAT WE'VE SEEN CERTAINLY ON ONE SIDE SOME REDUCTION IN THE APOCALYPTIC LANGUAGE THAT WAS AROUND IN JULY.
A CANDIDATE DESERVES TO BE TREATED WITH VIOLENCE AND VIOLENCE IS UNACCEPTABLE IN A WAY OF RESOLVING POLITICAL DISPUTES.
AFTER ALL, IN THE 19th CENTURY WE SAW THE CONSEQUENCES OF TRYING -- OF USING VIOLENCE TO SETTLE DISAGREEMENTS.
SO I DON'T THINK DEMOCRATS OR REPUBLICANS SHOULD BE HELD RESPONSIBLE FOR THE ACTS OF MAD MEN.
>> THERE'S SOMETHING DEEPER GOING ON HERE, I THINK, AND YOU'RE AN HISTORIAN THAT HAS SPECIALIZED, IN MANY TIMES YOU STUDIED WATERGATE, KENNEDY, CUBAN MISSILE CRISIS.
YOU CITED RICHARD HOFSTETTER.
YOU USED HIM IN YOUR OWN WORK.
TELL ME ABOUT THIS PARANOID STYLE AND WHETHER THIS CONSPIRACY IS NOTIONS BUBBLING UP AGAIN ARE PART OF A CYCLE IN AMERICAN HISTORY.
>> WHEN RICHARD HOSTETTER WROTE A WONDERFUL PIECE ABOUT THE PARANOID STYLE, IT WAS -- IT WAS 1963 AND IT WAS BEFORE LEE HARVEY OSWALD KILLED KENNEDY, THE FIRST TIME HE GAVE A SPEECH.
HE REWROTE IT AFTERWARDS AND IT WAS PUBLISHED AFTER THE KENNEDY ASSASSINATION, BUT HE WAS DESCRIBING THE EDGES, WALTER, OF OUR POLITICAL COMMUNITY, THE EDGES.
AND THE EDGES WERE THESE EXTREME VIEWS.
AND HE WENT THROUGH OUR HISTORY AND HE MENTIONED DIFFERENT SMALL GROUPS, WE CALL THEM THIRD PARTIES, WHO HAD UNUSUALLY CONSPIRATORIAL VIEWS.
PEOPLE WHO WORRIED ABOUT MASONS, THE ANTI-MASONIC PARTY.
PEOPLE WHO WORRIED ABOUT IMMIGRANTS.
AND HE EXPLAINED THAT IN OUR POLITICAL CULTURE THERE IS THE CAPACITY FOR CONSPIRATORIAL THINKING AND THAT IT'S ALSO ALWAYS THERE.
IT'S LIKE BREAD IN THE BONE.
ONE THING HE MADE CLEAR IS THE OUTER EDGE.
OCCASIONALLY IT MOVES CLOSER TO THE CENTER.
HE WAS CONCERNED ABOUT A GROUP CALLED THE JOHN BURKE SOCIETY, VERY FAR RIGHT, VERY ANTI-COMMUNIST.
A GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO THOUGHT DWIGHT EISENHOWER WAS AN ENEMY OF THE UNITED STATES AND THAT SOMEHOW A TOOL OF THE SOVIETS.
AND HE WORRIED ABOUT THE EFFECT THEY WERE HAVING ON THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.
THEY SUPPORTED ULTIMATELY THE NOMINEE OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IN 1964, BARRY GOLDWATER, ALTHOUGH BARRY GOLDWATER HIMSELF WAS NOT A CAPTIVE OF SUCH CONSPIRATORIAL THINKING.
MY POINT IN BRINGING THIS UP IS HE WAS TALKING ABOUT THE OUTER EDGES.
WE ARE LIVING IN A POLITICAL MOMENT, WALTER, WHEN THOSE OUTER EDGES ARE AT THE CENTER OF OUR POLITICS.
>> WHAT'S BRINGING IT UP TO THE CENTER OF OUR POLITICS THEN?
>> WELL, I WOULD SAY THAT DONALD TRUMP AND THE LEADERSHIP OF THE TRUMPIST REPUBLICAN PARTY HAS DONE THAT.
THEY HAVE BOTH RESPONDED TO ANGER OUTSIDE OF WASHINGTON AND THEY'VE HELPED STIR THAT ANGER.
THERE ARE CONSPIRATORIAL THINKERS ON THE LEFT, THERE'S NO DOUBT ABOUT IT, BUT THEY'RE NOT AT THE CENTER OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY.
>> DO YOU THINK SOCIAL MEDIA'S HELPED BRING IT TO THE CENTER OF OUR DISCOURSE?
>> THERE'S NO DOUBT ABOUT IT.
THERE'S NO DOUBT ABOUT IT.
LOOK, THE WAY YOU WOULD COMMUNICATE THESE IDEAS IN THE 1960s WAS THROUGH PAMPHLETS.
YOU CAN SEE THE PERVASIVENESS OF THESE PAMPHLETS, BUT THAT WAS A SLOWER WAY OF -- BASICALLY OF SPREADING TOXICITY.
WE HAVE AN INSTANTANEOUS WAY OF DOING IT NOW.
AND LOOK, LOOK AT THE WAY PEOPLE USE NOT ONLY MEMES BUT LITTLE SNIPPETS OF VIDEO TO DRIVE HOME DRAMATICALLY A CERTAIN POINT OF VIEW.
MOST RECENTLY IN DISCUSSING THIS HORRIFIC LIE ABOUT IMMIGRANTS EATING PETS.
>> LET ME PUSH BACK A LITTLE BECAUSE WE'VE HAD FOR A WHOLE YEAR DEMOCRATS SORT OF SAYING ALL OF DEMOCRACY IS THREATENED IN THIS ELECTION.
I MEAN, ISN'T THAT A BIT OVER THE TOP TO SAY SOMEBODY'S GOING TO DESTROY OUR DEMOCRACY?
>> APOCALYPTIC LANGUAGE NEVER SERVES US VERY WELL.
WE LIVE IN AN ERA WHERE OUTRAGE IS USED TO FUEL POLITICAL CAMPAIGNS.
ACTUALLY, TO FUND THEM.
I MEAN, ANYBODY WATCHING NOW WILL KNOW THAT THEY'VE RECEIVED REQUESTS TO CONTRIBUTE MONEY AND IT'S ALWAYS THE MOST EXTREME.
SO WE DO LIVE IN AN ERA OF OUTRAGE.
I DO BELIEVE THAT APOCALYPTIC LANGUAGE IS NOT IN THE INTEREST OF THE COUNTRY.
WE'VE GOT TO KEEP IN MIND THAT THERE'S ALWAYS ANOTHER ELECTION AND THAT IF YOU LOSE THE ELECTION, YOU'LL HAVE ANOTHER CHANCE.
AND YOU DON'T WANT TO TAKE THE BALL HOME WITH YOU.
YOU DON'T WANT TO DESTROY THE FOOTBALL FIELD.
IF YOU LOSE, YOU LOSE, YOU MOVE ON.
IN 2021 DONALD TRUMP DID SOMETHING THAT NO PREDECESSOR OF HIS EVEN THOUGHT TO DO, WHICH WAS TO CONTEST A PEACEFUL TRANSITION OF POWER.
IN A SENSE, GIVING LICENSE TO A LOT OF AMERICANS SAYING, YOU KNOW WHAT, IF I DON'T LIKE THE OUTCOME OF THE ELECTION, MAYBE IT WAS FRAUD THAT CAUSED THAT ELECTION OUTCOME.
MAYBE IT REALLY DIDN'T HAPPEN.
SO WE ARE IN A DANGEROUS MOMENT WHERE -- AND THE LEFT HAS USED THIS APOCALYPTIC LANGUAGE.
I WOULD ARGUE THOUGH THE JANUARY 6th SHOULD LEAVE AN INDELIBLE IMPRESSION UPON ALL OF US THAT VERY DIVISIVE LANGUAGE CAN LEAD TO VIOLENCE ON A GRAND SCALE.
>> YOU'VE TALKED ABOUT HOW WHEN A GREATER GENERATION WAS IN POWER, THEY WENT THROUGH WORLD WAR II TOGETHER, THE DEPRESSION TOGETHER, THERE WAS A SENSE OF COMMON PURPOSE AND YET YOU'RE A HISTORIAN OF THE 1960s.
WHEN YOU LOOK AT THIS PERIOD, IT SORT OF REMINDS ME OF THE 1960s, INCLUDING THE RIOTS AND THE DIVISIONS IN THE STREETS, BUT ALSO THE THEORY OF A DEEP STATE.
YOU DID WATER GATE AND NIXON STUFF.
HE BELIEVED THEY, THE PARANOID, DEEP STATE WAS OUT TO GET HIM.
DON'T YOU SEE PARALLELS?
>> WELL, THERE ARE TWO POINTS ABOUT THIS.
OF COURSE THERE ARE CERTAIN PARALLELS, BUT THERE ARE REAL DIFFERENCES.
FIRST OF ALL, AFTER MARTIN LUTHER KING WAS ASSASSINATED IN APRIL OF 1968, THE HOUSE PASSED WITH BIPARTISAN SUPPORT THE FAIR HOUSING ACT, WHICH IS THE THIRD GREAT CIVIL RIGHTS ACT OF THE 1960s.
REPUBLICAN MEMBERS OF THE HOUSE, INCLUDING GEORGE HERBERT WALKER BUSH VOTED FOR THE CIVIL RIGHTS ACT.
NOT SIMPLY BECAUSE MARTIN LUTHER KING HAD BEEN ASSASSINATED BUT ALSO OUT OF A SENSE OF FAIRNESS TO AMERICANS OF COLOR WHO HAD -- WERE SERVING IN VIETNAM.
THERE WAS A SENSE OF A JOINT BIPARTISAN SENSE WE HAVE TO DO BETTER.
THIS IS AMIDST THE SWIRLING ISSUES THAT YOU RAISED.
THERE WAS STILL A POSSIBILITY AMONG ELECTED OFFICIALS TO WORK TOGETHER AND SET A NATIONAL TONE TO SHOW THAT WE WERE BETTER THAN WE HAD BEEN BEFORE.
I JUST DON'T SEE, WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THE INFRASTRUCTURE BILL, I DON'T SEE THIS BIPARTISAN CAPACITY TO SET A BETTER TONE AT THE HIGHEST LEVEL.
ELITE OPINION IS NOT THE MOST IMPORTANT THING, BUT IT MATTERS.
WE HAVE A VERY DIVIDED ELITE.
NOW THE OTHER PARALLELS, OF COURSE, THE VERY FACT THAT IN 1968 YOU HAVE A PRESIDENT WHO COULD HAVE RUN AGAIN, WHO DECIDES NOT TO RUN AGAIN, STEPS ASIDE BECAUSE OF A VERY UNPOPULAR WAR.
THAT UNPOPULAR WAR IS QUITE DIFFERENT FROM ISRAEL'S WAR WITH HAMAS.
AMERICANS WERE FIGHTING THE WAR IN VIETNAM.
IT WAS A MUCH MORE -- THE EFFECTS ON US AS A PEOPLE WERE MUCH GRAVER.
I'M NOT SUGGESTING THAT THE HUMANITARIAN SIDE OF THE WAR WITH HAMAS DOESN'T MATTER.
I'M SAYING AS A POLITICAL CHALLENGE IT DIDN'T REACH AS DEEPLY INTO THE AMERICAN SOUL, PSYCHE AND POLITICS AS DID VIETNAM.
YOU HAD VIETNAM, WHICH WAS CERTAINLY DIVIDING US, BUT -- BUT THE COUNTRY'S LEADERS WERE STILL ABLE TO MAKE CHANGES.
THEY WEREN'T PARALYZED BY THESE -- BY WHAT WAS GOING ON, BY THE SOCIAL AND CULTURAL REVOLUTION THAT WAS GOING ON AROUND THEM.
WHEREAS, I FEEL RIGHT NOW WE ARE STUCK, AND WHEN YOU HAVE ONE OF THE TWO POLITICAL PARTIES THAT IS SO ANIMATED BY CONSPIRACY THINKING BASICALLY TAKING THE PARANOID STYLE FROM THE OUTER EDGE OF OUR POLITICS RIGHT TO THE CENTER OF IT, IT MAKES NATIONAL CONCILIATION HARDER.
NOT BLAMING EVERYTHING ON THE RIGHT, BUT I AM SAYING THAT WE HAVE SEEN A SHIFT TOWARDS MORE CONSPIRATORIAL THINKING AND THAT IS MAINLY ON ONE SIDE THAN THE OTHER.
IT SHOULDN'T BE ON EITHER SIDE.
>> TIM, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.
>> THANK YOU.
>>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.
IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.
THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND GOOD-BYE FROM LONDON.