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>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."
HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.
MORE DEVICES EXPLODE IN LEBANON, AS ISRAEL TARGETS HEZBOLLAH.
AMID FEAR AND PANIC AND SPIRALING WAR, LEBANON'S FOREIGN MINISTER JOINS ME.
THEN -- >> WE ARE PREPARED TO FIGHT THE NEW RIGHT AND THE EXTREMISTS IN THE SENATE RACES OF 1984.
>> THE UNTOLD STORY OF CHURCHILL'S DAUGHTER-IN-LAW WHO BECAME A DEMOCRATIC PARTY POWER BROKER.
AUTHOR SONIA PURNELL EXAMINES HER LIFE IN HER NEW BOOK "KINGMAKER."
PLUS -- >> WE'RE NOT REALLY THINKING ABOUT ALL THE SOLUTIONS WE HAVE AT OUR FINGERTIPS.
>> WHAT IF WE GET IT RIGHT?
DR. AYANA ELIZABETH JOHNSON WITH HARI IMAGINES A WORLD IN WHICH WE DON'T JUST COMBAT CLIMATE CHANGE, BUT WE THRIVE IN THE PROCESS.
♪♪♪ >>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.
JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.
CANDACE KING WEIR.
THE SYLVIA A.
AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM.
THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.
MARK J. BLECHNER.
THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION.
SETON J. MELVIN.
THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND.
CHARLES ROSENBLUM.
KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.
BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.
JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS.
AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.
THANK YOU.
>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.
WALKIE-TALKIES EXPLODED TODAY IN LEBANON, A DAY AFTER ISRAEL REMOTELY DETONATED HEZBOLLAH'S NETWORK OF PAGERS.
ISRAEL'S DEFENSE MINISTER TODAY SAYS A NEW PHASE OF WAR IS BEGINNING, AND THAT THE CENTER OF GRAVITY IS MOVING NORTH.
MEANING, TOWARDS LEBANON.
THE TWO STUNNING ATTACKS KILLED MORE THAN A DOZEN PEOPLE AND INJURED THOUSANDS.
HEZBOLLAH IS VOWING REVENGE.
THE GROUP, WHICH WHILE THE WEST DESIGNATES IT AS A TERRORIST ORGANIZATION, IS ACTUALLY ALSO A POWERFUL POLITICAL PARTY, WITH 13 SEATS IN THE LEBANESE PARLIAMENT.
FOREIGN MINISTER ABDALLAH BOU HABIB WAS THE COUNTRY'S AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED STATES, ALSO WORKED ONCE AS THE ECONOMIST AT THE WORLD BANK.
AND HE IS NOW JOINING US FROM BEIRUT.
WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, FOREIGN MINISTER.
WHAT DO YOU KNOW IS GOING ON?
WHAT'S HAPPENING RIGHT NOW IN YOUR COUNTRY?
>> WELL, YOU DESCRIBED IT A LITTLE BIT, AND IT IS WORSE THAN ONE CAN SAY, THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO ARE BEING KILLED AND A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE INJURED AND A LOT OF THEM MAIMED FOR GOOD, YOU KNOW, SO, IT'S A VERY HARD SITUATION.
AND I DON'T KNOW WHAT'S ISRAEL'S INTENTION.
I DON'T THINK THEY CAN RETURN THOSE WHO -- REFUGEES WHO WENT FROM THEIR VILLAGES IN THE NORTH IN THIS WAY, BECAUSE ISRAEL WAS IN LEBANON AND HAD TO RUN AWAY IN LEBANON.
OF COURSE THEY STAYED 22 YEARS, BUT THERE WERE TOO MANY KILLINGS OF ISRAELIS THERE.
SO, I DON'T THINK ISRAEL WOULD WANT TO OCCUPY THE SOUTH AGAIN, BECAUSE THIS TIME THE RESISTANCE IS STRONGER THAN IT WAS IN THE PAST.
SO, I REALLY DON'T UNDERSTAND THE ISRAELIS, BECAUSE IF THEY WANT TO GO TO GET BACK THEIR PEOPLE TO THE NORTH, THOSE WHO WERE DISPLACED TO THE NORTH, TO THEIR VILLAGES AND SETTLEMENTS, THEY HAVE TO NEGOTIATE.
>> UH-HUH.
>> AND THEY HAVE TO NEGOTIATE WITH THE LEBANESE GOVERNMENT THROUGH MEDIATORS LIKE -- LIKE THE AMERICANS, AS WELL.
>> SO, HAVE THERE BEEN ANY NEGOTIATIONS?
BEFORE I GET TO THE NITTY-GRITTY OF THE -- OF THE EXPLODING WALKIE-TALKIES, HAS THERE BEEN ANY KIND OF DIPLOMATIC ATTEMPT?
BECAUSE HEZBOLLAH, OBVIOUSLY, GOT INTO THIS WAR AFTER OCTOBER 7th, IN SUPPORT OF HAMAS.
SO, THERE'S BEEN AN ONGOING EXCHANGE OF FIRE BETWEEN THE TWO SIDES, FOR NEARLY A YEAR NOW.
>> THAT'S TRUE.
OCTOBER 8th, IT WILL BE A YEAR, SO -- YES, THE AMERICANS GOT INVOLVED, THE FRENCH GET INVOLVED, U.N.
TRIES ITS BEST, AS WELL.
BUT WE DEPEND ON THE AMERICANS NOW TO REALLY TAKE -- I DON'T KNOW IF HE STILL IS IN ISRAEL, AND I THINK HE WAS SUPPOSED TO COME HERE IF HE HAS ANY MESSAGE, IT SEEMS HE DOESN'T HAVE ANY MESSAGE.
HE HAS BEEN NEGOTIATING, HE HAS BEEN TALKING TO PEOPLE HERE AND ISRAEL, BUT SO FAR, NOTHING CAME OUT.
>> SO, FOREIGN MINISTER, THE AMERICANS SAY THEY WERE NOT TOLD OF THESE DETAILS.
NOW, THE ISRAELIS ARE SAYING THEY DID WARN THE AMERICANS, BUT APPARENTLY, BY CONSENSUS, THERE IS -- THERE WAS NO DETAILS GIVEN TO THE AMERICANS, NEITHER TO MR. HOCKSTEIN NOR TO THE STATE DEPARTMENT, AND THE SECRETARY OF STATE IS IN THE REGION RIGHT NOW.
THIS IS WHAT HE'S SAYING ABOUT THE GENERAL SITUATION.
>> WE'VE BEEN VERY CLEAR, AND WE REMAIN VERY CLEAR ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE OF ALL PARTIES AVOIDING ANY STEPS THAT COULD FURTHER ESCALATE THE CONFLICT THAT WE'RE TRYING TO RESOLVE IN GAZA.
TO SEE IT SPREAD TO OTHER FRONTS.
IT'S CLEARLY NOT IN THE INTEREST OF ANYONE INVOLVED TO SEE THAT HAPPEN.
AND THAT'S WHY, AGAIN, IT'S IMPERATIVE THAT ALL PARTIES REFRAIN FROM ANY ACTIONS THAT COULD ESCALATE THE CONFLICT.
>> FOREIGN MINISTER, HE'S TALKING ABOUT TRYING TO GET A CEASE-FIRE IN GAZA IN ORDER TO CALM THE WHOLE AREA.
A, DO YOU THINK THAT'S WHAT IT'S GOING TO TAKE TO STOP HEZBOLLAH FROM ITS ACTIVITIES?
>> LOOK, HEZBOLLAH IS A RESISTANCE MOVEMENT, AND THAT'S GOVERNMENT TO GOVERNMENT.
WE ARE WILLING TO -- TO TALK TO HEZBOLLAH AT THE RIGHT TIME, AND WE COMMUNICATE WITH THEM ALL THE TIME.
AND I THINK IF ISRAEL WANTS PEACE, WE ARE READY FOR PEACE, FOR A CEASE-FIRE, NOT A PEACE TREATY, BUT FOR A CEASE-FIRE ON THE BORDER, AND AN AGREEMENT ON WHAT ARE THE CONDITIONS FOR THIS CEASE-FIRE?
GRANTED THAT 1701, WHICH IS UNITED NATIONS SECURITY COUNCIL RESOLUTION 1701 IS A VERY IMPORTANT RESOLUTION FOR US, AND IF WE IMPLEMENTED FOR US AND THE ISRAELIS, AND WE WILL SEE THAT IMPLEMENTED, BUT ISRAEL VIOLATES LEBANON, THE SOVEREIGNTY OF LEBANON, EVERY DAY, THERE IS A VIOLATION, SO I'M NOT DEFENDING HEZBOLLAH, BECAUSE, YES, THEY ARE ALSO, YOU KNOW, RETALIATING.
ESCALATION HAS BEEN ALL THE TIME ISRAELIS, LIKE, WHAT HAPPENED YESTERDAY, WHAT HAPPENED TODAY, IS ESCALATION, YOU KNOW?
WE CANNOT TALK TO HEZBOLLAH ANYMORE NOW IN THE WAY WE WERE TALKING TO THEM IN THE PAST, BECAUSE THEY ARE -- OF COURSE THEY WERE HURT VERY BADLY, AND THEREFORE RETALIATION IS A MUST TO THEM.
WE TRY TO DO SOMETHING, BUT I DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH WE HAVE POWER TO STOP THEM.
THE RESISTANCE -- >> YEAH, IT ALL SOUNDS -- >> OCCUPATION OF -- >> FOREIGN MINISTER, IT ALL SOUNDS REALLY HOPELESS.
ON THE ONE HAND, YOU SAY, THE U.S. HAS TO DO SOMETHING.
THE U.S.
DIDN'T EVEN KNOW WHAT WAS ABOUT TO HAPPEN.
ISRAEL IS ITS MAIN ALLY.
ISRAEL TAKES ITS WEAPONS FROM THE UNITED STATES, NOBODY KNEW, ACCORDING TO SECRETARY OF STATE ANTONY BLINKEN.
HOW IS IT GOING TO FIX THIS?
THEN YOU SAY YOU CAN'T TALK TO HEZBOLLAH, BECAUSE THEY ARE, YOU KNOW, NOW WITHOUT THEIR PAGERS OR THEIR WALKIE-TALKIES.
ARE YOU AFRAID THAT THIS IS GOING TO ESCALATE INTO A REGIONAL WAR, NOT JUST ISRAEL GOING TO WAR WITH HEZBOLLAH, BUT A REGIONAL WAR WITH IRAN, ET CETERA?
>> WE -- WE HAVE WARNED ABOUT THIS FOR A LONG TIME.
THAT THIS WILL END UP WITH A REGIONAL WAR.
AND THIS IS NOT IN THE INTEREST OF ANY SIDE, ANY COUNTRY IN THE REGION.
WE REALLY WANT PEACE AS A GOVERNMENT.
AND WE ARE REALLY GOING TO NEW YORK, TO THE SECURITY COUNCIL, FRIDAY AFTERNOON, WE'LL HAVE A MEETING OF SECURITY COUNCIL.
WE WANT PEACE.
I DON'T MEAN TO SAY PEACE WITH ISRAEL AND HAVE, LIKE, A PEACE TREATY, WE WANT PEACE ON THE BORDERS.
>> UH-HUH.
>> BETWEEN US AND ISRAEL.
AND WE WANT TO GO BACK TO THE TRUCE LINE, WHICH WAS APPROVED BY ISRAEL AND BY LEBANON IN 1949.
SO, YOU KNOW, WE REALLY WANT PEACE AND WE REALLY ARE WORKING FOR PEACE, BUT WE DID NOT RECEIVE ANY GOOD SIGN FROM THE ISRAELIS.
>> OKAY.
SO, LET ME ASK YOU, HAS THIS WEAKENED HEZBOLLAH?
BECAUSE FIRST OF ALL, YOU KNOW, IT'S QUITE A STUNNING, ORDINATED ATTACK.
WE DON'T KNOW WHAT THE STRATEGY OF THIS WAS, AND WHAT'S THE NEXT STEP BY ISRAEL, BUT THOSE WHO GET OFF ON THIS KIND OF DARING DO ARE CALLING IT BRILLIANT.
MY QUESTION TO YOU IS, DOES THIS WEAKEN HEZBOLLAH IN TERMS OF ITS INTELLIGENCE BEING PENETRATED, ITS HARDWARE BEING PENETRATED -- I MEAN, WHAT'S YOUR VIEW ON THAT?
>> WELL, SO FAR, OF COURSE.
NOW, HEZBOLLAH, FOR FEW DAYS, OR A WEEK OR SO, THERE WOULD BE TROUBLE -- IT'S NOT EASY FOR THEM TO RECEIVE SUCH KIND OF A BLOW IN TWO DAYS.
YOU KNOW, I DON'T KNOW WHAT'S EXPECTED MORE, IF THERE IS ANYTHING ELSE IS EXPECTED TOMORROW.
I MEAN, THEY PENETRATED THEIR INTELLIGENCE, THEY PENETRATED THEIR COMMUNICATION.
THERE'S NO DOUBT THEY WOULD BE LIMITED AND IN DISARRAY, BUT I THINK THIS IS AN ORGANIZATION THAT CAN COME BACK QUICKLY.
THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED IN 2006, AND THEY CAN COME BACK QUICKLY.
ALSO, ISRAEL FOR A YEAR ALMOST HAS BEEN, YOU KNOW, WE'RE GOING TO FINISH HAMAS, YES, HAMAS HAS BEEN WEAKENED, BUT IT'S STILL THERE.
SO, YOU KNOW, IDEAS, YOU CANNOT KILL IDEAS BY WAR.
THIS IS -- IF YOU HAVE AN ARMY AGAINST AN ARMY, ONE WOULD WIN, BUT THIS CASE, IT IS NOT THE CASE.
IT'S NOT THE SAME CASE AS A WAR.
YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE AN IDEA, AN IDEA DOES NOT DIE.
THE CONTRARY, THERE WILL BE MORE PEOPLE, REALLY RALLYING TOWARDS THIS IDEA.
>> AND FINALLY, FOREIGN MINISTER, YOU KNOW, CNN HAS LEARNED THAT IT WAS A JOINT MOSAD-IDF OPERATION.
WHY DO YOU SAY IT WAS ISRAEL, WHAT DO YOU KNOW?
AND HOW DO YOU ASSESS THE ABILITY TO DO WHAT THEY DID?
>> HOW DO I?
>> NO, THAT IT WAS ISRAEL, AND -- >> ASSESS, YOU SAID?
>> HOW DID YOU FEEL WHEN ALL THESE EXPLODING PAGERS STARTED GOING OFF, AND TODAY, MORE WALKIE-TALKIES?
>> THERE'S NO -- THERE'S NO DOUBT IT'S A SCARY MOMENT, AND WE ARE AFRAID FOR WAR, BECAUSE WE DON'T WANT A WAR.
THERE WERE SKIRMISHES ON THE WATER, SOMETIMES ESCALATED, OKAY, ACCEPTED, BUT NOW, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT A WAR.
IT'S INTRODUCTION TO A WAR.
THAT'S WHY WE'RE GOING TO THE SECURITY COUNCIL, U.N. SECURITY COUNCIL, TO STOP SUCH KIND OF THINGS.
WE ARE AGAINST WAR IN LEBANON.
THE GOVERNMENT OF LEBANON DOES NOT WANT WAR.
AND DOES NOT WANT EVEN THE SKIRMISHES IN THE SOUTH OF LEBANON.
SO -- WE NEED THE HELP OF THE UNITED NATIONS, WE NEED THE HELP OF THE UNITED STATES ALSO, IN ORDER TO REALLY RE-ESTABLISH SOME KIND OF PEACE IN SOUTH LEBANON.
>> AND JUST VERY BRIEFLY -- HOW DO YOU KNOW IT WAS ISRAEL?
>> HOW DO I KNOW -- I DIDN'T GET THE QUESTION.
>> YEAH.
>> CAN YOU -- WELL, I DON'T KNOW, BUT THE PERCEPTION, IT'S A STRONG PERCEPTION THAT THEY DID IT.
EVEN AMERICANS ARE SAYING NOBODY COULD DO IT EXCEPT THE ISRAELIS.
>> AND FINALLY -- >> AND CAN PUT A LOT OF PRESSURE ON THE ISRAELIS.
>> IS WAR -- IS WAR INEVITABLE NOW, A BIGGER WAR?
>> YOU KNOW, IF -- IF UNITED STATES IS THE ONLY COUNTRY THAT CAN STOP THE WAR.
UNITED STATES SUPPLIES ISRAEL WITH WEAPONS, WITH AMMUNITION, WITH MONEY, WHATEVER.
AND THEY CAN STOP IT.
AND THIS HAPPENED BEFORE.
KISSINGER STOPPED THE WAR AND BUSH ALSO GOT THE ISRAELIS TO THE PEACE CONFERENCE IN MADRID.
SO, UNITED STATES HAS THE MEANS TO STOP THE WAR, IF IT WANTS TO STOP THE WAR.
>> WE'RE GOING BACK MORE THAN 30 YEARS NOW, MR. FOREIGN MINISTER.
THANK YOU SO MUCH INDEED FOR BEING WITH US AT THIS REALLY TENSE TIME.
>>> AND MEANTIME, AS THE FOREIGN MINISTER SAID, THEY ARE GOING TO THE U.N.
THIS WEEKEND, AND THE U.N. SECRETARY-GENERAL IS CALLING ON ALL PARTIES TO DE-ESCALATE IMMEDIATELY.
THE U.N. GENERAL ASSEMBLY TODAY ADOPTED AN HISTORIC RESOLUTION DEMANDING THAT ISRAEL END ITS ILLEGAL PRESENCE IN THE OCCUPIED PALESTINIAN TERRITORIES WITHIN 12 MONTHS.
WHICH ISRAEL SWIFTLY REJECTED.
LET'S TURN NOW TO THE RETIRED IDF MAJOR GENERAL, GUY ZUR.
MAJOR GENERAL, WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.
YOU JUST HEARD WHAT THE LEBANESE FOREIGN MINISTER SAID.
I JUST WANT TO ASK YOU, FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE, IS WAR NOW INEVITABLE?
WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF WHAT DEFENSE MINISTER GALLANT HAS SAID, ON TOP OF ALL THESE EXPLOSIONS?
>> GOOD EVENING.
I THINK IT'S NOT INEVITABLE, I THINK THAT IF THE LEADERS OF BOTH SIDES WILL THINK STRATEGICALLY, IT WILL BE -- IT WILL BE DELAYED OR STOPPED.
WE CAN STOP THIS WAR, BECAUSE WE UNDERSTAND, ALL OF US, IN THE END OF A WAR THAT BOTH SIDES WILL PAY A VERY HIGH PRICE ON THE WAR.
WE WILL BE BACK CLOSE TO THE SAME POINT THAT WE ARE NOW.
SO, IF HEZBOLLAH WILL STOP THESE ATTACKS AND WILL AGREE TO MAKE 1701 DECISION, I THINK IT'S A GOOD START TO ELIMINATE THE WAR THAT IS ALREADY GOING TO -- TO IMPLEMENT.
>> OKAY, I -- BEFORE I GET TO THESE EXPLODING DEVICES, YOU SAY THAT, BUT YOUR OWN DEFENSE MINISTER, AT AN AIR FORCE BASE TODAY, SAID THE CENTER OF GRAVITY IS MOVING NORTH, THROUGH THE DIVERSION OF OUR RESOURCES AND FORCES.
WE ARE OPENING A NEW PHASE IN THE WAR.
THIS REQUIRES COURAGE, DETERMINATION, AND PERSEVERANCE FROM US.
IT'S VERY IMPORTANT TO DO THINGS AT THIS STAGE IN CLOSE COOPERATION BETWEEN ALL ORGANIZATIONS AT ALL LEVELS.
NOW, THAT'S THE DEFENSE MINISTER WHO IS A MEMBER OF YOUR GOVERNMENT.
DOESN'T SEEM TO THINK -- IT DOESN'T LOOK LIKE THEY WANT TO STOP WAR.
>> WELL, I'M NOT SURE, YOU KNOW?
IT HAS BEEN ALMOST A YEAR THAT ISRAEL IS ORDERING CITIZENS LEFT THEIR HOMES.
HEZBOLLAH IS GOING TO PAY A VERY, VERY HIGH PRICE FOR IT SUPPORTING THE MURDERS OF HAMAS.
HE HAS TO CONSIDER AGAIN IF HAMAS IS -- IS IMPORTANT ENOUGH TO RUIN LEBANON.
BUT WE CAN'T GET THE SITUATION, WE CAN ACCEPT THE SITUATION THAT THE ISRAELIS ARE -- THAT THE ISRAELIS ARE MORE THAN 11 MONTHS OUT OF THEIR HOMES, BECAUSE OF THE ATTACKS OF HEZBOLLAH, SO -- THE DEFENSE FORCES OF ISRAEL SHOULD DO THE RIGHT STEPS IN ORDER TO MAKE IT IN WAR, IF NOT IN AGREEMENT.
THAT'S THE ROLE OF THE DEFENSE MINISTER, THAT'S THE ROLE OF THE -- THE ARMY, SO, THAT'S WHAT THEY ARE DOING, AND IF HEZBOLLAH WILL NOT AGREE TO STOP, IT WILL DETERIORATE TO A TOTAL WAR THAT THE PRICES OF BOTH SIDES WILL BE VERY HIGH.
I THINK THAT HEZBOLLAH SAW TODAY AND YESTERDAY THE CAPABILITIES ISN'T KNOWN FOR THE LAST FEW YEARS THAT WE -- THAT WE DEVELOPED, IF ISRAEL DID IT.
>> OKAY.
>> SO, I THINK THAT -- >> SO, YOU SAY IF ISRAEL DID IT.
ARE YOU -- IS THERE ANY DOUBT IN YOUR MIND, THIS WAS ALLEGEDLY A JOINT MOSSAD-IDF OPERATION.
IS THERE ANY DOUBT IN YOUR MIND?
YOU'RE A FORMER IDF.
THAT THIS WAS THE IDF?
AND IF SO, WHAT'S THE POINT?
>> WELL, I WAS A FORMER, I'M NOT IN AN OFFICIAL ROLE NOW, SO IT'S NOT IMPORTANT FOR WHAT I THINK, BUT I THINK PROBABLY IT CAN BE ISRAEL, MOSSAD AND THE IDF, IT'S PROBABLY WHO DID IT.
AND I THINK THAT THE GOAL IS TO TELL HEZBOLLAH, YOU ARE VERY PENETRATED, WE KNOW ALMOST EVERYTHING.
OF HEZBOLLAH.
AND IF YOU WANT TO -- TO CONTINUE TO DETERIORATE THE SITUATION, IN ORDER TO GET TO TOTAL WAR, CONSIDER AGAIN, BECAUSE THE PRICES WILL BE VERY HIGH, AND I THINK THAT NASRALLAH, 16 YEARS AGO, OR 18 YEARS AGO, AFTER THE SECOND LEBANON WAR, HE SAID THAT IF HE WOULD KNOW WHAT ARE THE PRICES THAT LEBANON WOULD PAY, IT DIDN'T -- HE WOULDN'T START THE WAR THAT HE STARTED.
SO, NOW I HAVE TO REMIND HIM THAT HE HAS TO CONSIDER AGAIN, BECAUSE THE PRICES WILL BE UNBEARABLE FOR LEBANON.
ALSO FOR ISRAELIS, WHO THEY HURT, BUT UNBEARABLE FOR LEBANON.
>> YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU PULL BACK AND SEE THE WHOLE PICTURE, AS THE LEBANESE FOREIGN MINISTER JUST SAID ACCURATELY, THAT IT'S BEEN 11 MONTHS, NEARLY A YEAR NOW SINCE OCTOBER 7th, AND SINCE THE ISRAELI WAR AGAINST HAMAS.
HAMAS HAS BEEN WEAKENED, BUT NOT ELIMINATED.
IT'S BEEN 11 MONTHS OF THIS BACK AND FORTH ON THE NORTHERN BORDER WITH HEZBOLLAH, AND ALL SIDES ARE STILL THERE.
YOU MENTIONED THE WAR OF 2006, WHICH CREATED A HUGE AMOUNT OF PAIN, YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT, BUT ISRAEL IS NOT CONSIDERED TO HAVE WON THAT WAR.
AT BEST, IT WAS A DRAW.
DO YOU THINK HAMAS IS GOING TO RETALIATE NOW, AND DO YOU THINK THAT IRAN WILL BE DRAGGED, THE WHOLE THING THAT EVERYBODY SAYS THEY DON'T WANT.
DO YOU THINK THAT MIGHT HAPPEN NOW?
>> I THINK THAT BOTH SIDES SHOULD ACT AND THINK STRATEGICALLY.
I'M NOT SURE THAT THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT THINK AND ACT STRATEGICALLY, AND I DON'T THINK THAT THE OTHER SIDE IS ACTING STRATEGICALLY.
WE WILL NOT GAIN MORE PROFITS FROM THE WAR WITH HAMAS, BECAUSE THE HAMAS IS ALREADY CONTROLLING IT.
AND BECAUSE OF THE FACT THAT THE MILITARY CAPABILITIES OF HAMAS WERE ELIMINATED.
THEY ARE STILL WITH TERROR CAPABILITIES, BUT NOT WITH MILITARY CAPABILITIES, SO NOW WHAT ISRAEL STRATEGY SHOULD BE IS FOUR LEGS.
ONE IS TO STOP THE WAR WITH HAMAS AND BRING BACK THE HOSTAGES.
THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT AND MOST MORAL ACT TO DO.
SECONDLY, IT HAS TO MAKE IN AGREEMENT WITH COALITION THAT BIDEN HAS OFFERED FOR US SINCE THE BEGINNING OF THIS WAR.
THIRD, WE HAVE TO BRING BACK THE PEOPLE OF THE NORTHERN PART OF ISRAEL TO THEIR HOMES IN AGREEMENT OR IN A WAR.
AND FOURTH, AND THIS IS MAYBE THE MOST IMPORTANT THING, ALL THE COALITION WITH ISRAEL, BUT NOT ISRAEL ALONE, SHOULD ATTACK IRAN BEFORE IT BECOME A NUCLEAR WEAPON -- A NUCLEAR COUNTRY.
SO, THESE ARE THE FOUR STRATEGIC LINES THAT I THINK WE HAVE TO PUT AHEAD.
DOES ISRAEL GOVERNMENT DO IT?
NOT YET.
I THINK THAT THE ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER DEALS TOO MUCH WITH POLITICS AND LESS WITH THE INTEREST OF ISRAEL, AND THIS IS VERY CONCERNING POINT.
>> RIGHT.
>> AND HEZBOLLAH SHOULD ALSO THINK IN -- ON HIS STRATEGY.
>> SO, LET ME JUST ASK YOU SOMETHING BEYOND THIS SORT OF NATIONAL POWER PLAY.
YOU KNOW, YOU MENTIONED THE HOSTAGES.
THE ONE THING YOUR PEOPLE HAVE BEEN CONSISTENT ABOUT SINCE THE THEIR GOVERNMENT AND THEIR PRIME MINISTER FIRST AND FOREMOST BRING BACK THE HOSTAGES.
WHO, THE REMAINDER ARE LANGUISHING, ROTTING IN SOME HORRIBLE TUNNELS, AND THEY'RE AT DANGER OF BEING KILLED, AS YOU'VE SEEN OTHERS HAVE.
IS YOUR PRIME MINISTER FOCUSING ON THE RIGHT THING RIGHT NOW?
ESCALATING WITH HEZBOLLAH AND LEBANON?
AND DO YOU THINK THERE IS -- I MEAN, IS ENOUGH ATTENTION BEING PUT ON THE PEOPLE WHO NEED TO BE BROUGHT HOME?
>> NO.
MY OPINION AND I'M SAYING IT WHENEVER I CAN SAY IS THAT THE PRIME MINISTER DEALS TOO MUCH WITH POLITICS AND NOT ENOUGH WITH THE HOSTAGES.
THAT -- THEY ARE THE MOST IMPORTANT THING FOR THE CONFIDENCE OF ISRAEL AND THE FUTURE OF ISRAEL BECAUSE THE ISRAELI SOCIETY SHOULD UNDERSTAND IT WHEN THEY ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE HOSTAGES, THE GOVERNMENT OF ISRAEL DOES ALL THAT IT CAN TO BRING THEM BACK HOME.
AND BECAUSE OF POLITICS, NETANYAHU DOESN'T DO IT, AND THIS IS A VERY, VERY CONCERNING ISSUE AND THAT'S WHY WE DEMONSTRATE WHEREVER WE CAN.
>> IT'S REALLY TRAGIC TO THINK OF ALL THOSE PEOPLE AND ALL THOSE LIVES.
MAJOR GENERAL ZUR, THANK YOU VERY MUCH, INDEED, FOR JOINING US.
>>> NEXT, WE TURN TO A STORY OF POWER, SEX, AND SOME OF THE MOST IMPORTANT FIGURES IN MODERN HISTORY.
FROM AMERICA'S INVOLVEMENT IN WORLD WAR II TO BILL CLINTON'S RISE TO THE PRESIDENCY TO THE END OF THE WAR IN BOSNIA, ONE WOMAN PLAYED A KEY USUALLY UNSEEN ROLE BEHIND THE SCENES.
PAMELA HARRIMAN, DAUGHTER-IN-LAW OF WINSTON CHURCHILL, AND EVENTUAL AMERICAN AMBASSADOR TO FRANCE WAS FREQUENTLY DISMISSED AS LITTLE MORE THAN A SEXY SOCIAL CLIMBER.
BUT NEARLY THREE DECK KAEDS AFTER HER DEATH, A NEW BIOGRAPHY IS RE-EXAMIING HER LEGACY AND HER EXTRAORDINARY LIFE.
"KINGMAKER" REVEALS HER AMAZING TALE, THAT ENDED IN SHAPING SOME OF THE 20th CENTURY'S CRITICAL MOMENTS.
ITS AUTHOR,PURNELL, IS JOINING US LIVE ON THE SET.
WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.
>> SO, IT'S QUITE A STORY, QUITE A LIFE THAT PAMELA HARRIMAN HAD.
WHY THREE DECADES AFTER HER DEATH DID YOU THINK THAT SHE WAS AN INTERESTING SUBJECT, AND THAT YOU WANTED TO SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT?
>> WELL, TWO THINGS.
I FIRST CAME ACROSS HER WHEN I WAS WRITING A BOOK ABOUT WINSTON CHURCHILL'S WIFE, SO, I KNEW SHE'D BEEN A CRUCIAL PART OF THEIR WAR EFFORT, THAT THEY DEPENDED ON HER.
AND THAT SHE HAD HAD A VERY, VERY SPECIAL WAR MISSION, IF YOU LIKE, WHICH I'LL COME INTO SHORTLY, I'M SURE.
SO, I KNEW ABOUT HER, BUT I ALSO KNEW THAT HER OWN PAPERS, HUGE NUMBERS OF LETTERS AND DIARIES AND MINUTES AND TRANSCRIPTS, WERE GOING TO BE MADE OPEN FOR THE FIRST TIME IN THE LIBRARY OF NOW, THIS WAS DURING COVID, BUT I GOT OVER THERE IN A WINDOW IN THE LOCKDOWN AND WENT INTO THE LIBRARY THERE, AND WHAT I FOUND, REALLY BLEW MY SOCKS OFF.
I THOUGHT THIS WAS GOING TO BE A BOOK THAT WOULD TAKE ME TWO OR THREE YEARS, IN THE END, IT WAS FIVE YEARS.
SHE DID SO MUCH MORE TO CREATE WHAT YOU JUST DESCRIBED AS MODERN HISTORY, I DIDN'T EVEN HAVE ANY IDEA.
AND I'D ALREADY LOOK INTO HER PAST A FAIR AMOUNT.
BUT REALLY ANY BIG EVENT THAT YOU CAN POSSIBLY THINK OF IN THE 20th CENTURY, SHE ALMOST ALWAYS HAD A RINGSIDE SEAT AND HAD SOME KIND OF IMPACT ON IT.
>> LET'S START AT THE BEGINNING.
SO, SHE WAS BORN TO A MIDDLE CLASS FAMILY, SHE WAS A LITTLE BIT SORT OF, YOU KNOW, WANTED TO GET OUT OF THAT SORT OF LIFE, RIGHT, AND WANTED TO GET MARRIED.
SHE DIDN'T DO VERY WELL IN THE DEBUTANTE SEASON.
AND SHE WAS PUSHED TOWARDS RANDOLPH CHURCHILL.
>> IT WAS VERY MUCH HER DECISION.
SHE WAS THE ELDEST DAUGHTER OF A LORD, QUITE RURAL, VERY REMOTE HOUSE -- >> UPPER CLASS, SORRY.
>> UPPER CLASS, PRIVILEGED LIFESTYLE, BUT SHUT OFF FROM THE REST OF THE WORLD, AND IN THE HILLS, YOU CAN'T SEE ANY OTHER LIGHTS AT NIGHT, IT'S VERY, VERY REMOTE, HER PARENTS HAD GONE THERE AFTER THE LAST PANDEMIC IN 1918 FOR SORT OF BIG, HEALTHY, OUTDOOR SPACES, BUT THEIR DAUGHTER REACTED AGAINST THAT.
WHAT SHE WANTED WAS FUN AND EXCITEMENT AND SHE HAD TAKEN A VERY EARLY INTEREST IN POLITICS.
AT THE BEGINNING OF THE WAR, SHE MET RANDOLPH CHURCHILL.
HE ASKED NINE WOMEN TO MARRY HIM.
HE WANTED TO SIRE A SON BEFORE HE WENT TO WAR.
NINE HAD SAID NO, PROBABLY FOR VERY GOOD REASON, BECAUSE HE WAS AN APPALLING HUSBAND, A BRUTE AND A BULLY, REALLY.
>> AND A FILL LANDERER.
>> AND A DRUNKARD AND ANYTHING ELSE YOU CAN THINK OF, BUT PAMELA SAID YES FOR ONE VERY GOOD REASON.
SHE SAW IT AS AN EXIT OUT AND INTO HIGH SOCIETY AND THE CENTER OF POWER IN LONDON.
AND SHE SUCCEEDED IN FINDING >> AND DID YOU THINK SHE THOUGHT IT WOULD LEAD TO THIS CLOSE RELATIONSHIP WITH WINSTON CHURCHILL, AND THIS VERY, YOU KNOW, CRITICAL ROLE IN TRYING TO GET AMERICA IN ON BRITAIN'S SIDE, AND BEING KIND OF AT WINSTON CHURCHILL'S SIDE THROUGHOUT?
>> YEAH, SHE WAS.
AND SHE WAS HIS SECRET WEAPON.
I THINK SHE SET OUT THAT SHE WAS GOING TO MAKE HERSELF INDISPENSABLE TO WINSTON CHURCHILL.
AT THE BEGINNING OF THE WAR, HE WAS PRETTY UNPOPULAR.
EVERYONE THOUGHT HE'D BEEN ON THE WRONG SIDE OF HISTORY BEFORE HE MADE TOO MUCH OF THE THREAT FROM HITLER.
NOW, OKAY, WE WERE AT WAR, BUT STILL, HE WAS UNPOPULAR.
AND HERE WAS AN ATTRACTIVE YOUNG WOMAN THAT LAUGHED AT HIS JOKES, BUT ALSO TOOK A HUGE INTEREST IN WHAT HE -- AND THE VERY SERIOUS NATURE OF THE EVENTS THAT WERE NOW FACING BRITAIN.
THE PERIL FROM INVASION FROM THE GERMANS WAS INDESCRIBABLE.
SOME WAY HAD TO BE FOUND TO LURE THE AMERICANS INTO THE WAR, AND IF NOT SHORT OF THAT, GAIN THEIR SUPPORT IN THE FORM OF PLANES OR WEAPONS OR EVEN FOOD AND MEDICINES.
SO, HE UNLEASHED HER AS HIS SECRET WEAPON.
>> CUT TO THE SECRET WEAPON WAS DIRECTED AT, AS YOU SAY, THE HEAD OF AMERICA'S LENDLEY'S PROGRAM, ADMIRAL HARRIMAN WHO WAS DISPATCHED TO THE UK BY ROOSEVELT.
>> BY ROOSEVELT.
>> AND SHE MET HIM, AND -- >> WELL, SHE MET HIM, AND I THINK IT'S FAIR TO SAY, FIREWORKS HAPPENED.
BUT THAT WAS ALL DLIB RAT.
IT WAS PART OF A STRATEGIC SEX LIFE.
SHE HAD TO SEDUCE THIS GUY.
SHE WAS PROVIDED WITH A BEAUTIFUL GOLDEN SKIN TIGHT DRESS, SHE WAS PUT NEXT TO HIM AT A DINNER AT THE DORCHESTER HOTEL, ONE OF CHURCHILL'S CONFIDANTS ARRANGED ALL OF THIS.
AND THEN BY THE TIME THEY GOT TO DESSERT, SHE WAS DOING WHAT PEOPLE CAME TO CALL HER MATING DANCE, WHICH INVOLVED A LOT OF STROKING OF THE FOREARM, LAUGHING AT HIS JOKES.
HE WAS A RATHER -- HE WAS A TOUGH GUY, BUT QUITE SHY AND INSECURE, AND THERE'S THIS GORGEOUS ARISTOCRAT, YOU KNOW, SOAKING UP EVERY SINGLE WORD HE SAID.
THIS WAS UNUSUAL, NEVER REALLY HAPPENED BEFORE.
IT WAS A VERY, VERY BAD AIR RAID THAT NIGHT, THEY WENT DOWN TO HIS SUITE IN THE HOTEL WHICH WAS SEEN AS RELATIVELY SAFE, AND I THINK IT'S FAIR TO SAY THAT HER VERY SPECIAL WAR WORK STARTED THAT NIGHT, AND WENT ON FROM THERE.
>> AND WHAT WAS THE RESULT?
I MEAN, CAN WE SAY IT WAS BECAUSE OF HER AND THE ADMIRAL THAT ROOSEVELT CAME IN?
>> NO, WE CAN'T, BUT WHAT WE CAN SAY IS THAT SHE WAS VERY MUCH INSTRUMENTAL IN RECRUITING HIM AND MANY OTHERS, JOURNALISTS, GENERALS, ALL SORTS OF PEOPLE, TO THE BRITISH CAUSE.
SO, LET'S JUST TAKE ADMIRAL HARRIMAN.
HE WAS COMPLETELY WELL-BRIEFED ON WHAT BRITAIN NEEDED.
NOT ONLY THAT, BUT HE WAS IN LOVE WITH THIS WOMAN AND WAS DETERMINED TO TRY AND SAVE BRITAIN, THAT SHE NOW, YOU KNOW, EMBODIED.
AND BY THE TIME HE WENT BACK ON HIS FIRST TRIP TO WASHINGTON, THIS TOUGH-NOSED SON OF A RAILROAD TYCOON WAS SO PRO-BRIT THAT PEOPLE SAID, HAVE YOU BEEN BEWITCHED?
WHAT'S HAPPENED TO UP.
BUT IT WASN'T JUST HIM, IT WAS A WHOLE SERIES OF AMERICANS THAT WERE ALL IN LOVE WITH PAMELA, AND ALL WOULD DO ANYTHING TO PLEASE HER AND BE IN WITH HER.
MEANWHILE, SHE WAS, YOU KNOW, PEDDLING THE BRITISH LINE, BUT ALSO EXTRACTING INFORMATION FROM THEM AND PASSING THAT BACK TO CHURCHILL TO TRY AND ESTABLISH WHAT LATER BECAME THE SPECIAL RELATIONSHIP.
>> AND OBVIOUSLY A WOMAN OF SUBSTANCE, I MEAN, YOU WRITE, HISTORY HAS REDUCED PAMELA TO A DISTORTED STEREOTYPE, IN HER CASE, A CONNIVING RIDICULOUS GOLD DIGGER OBSESSED BY SEX.
YOU CALLED YOUR BOOK "KINGMAKER" FOR A REASON.
>> WELL, THAT'S RIGHT.
I MEAN, YOU KNOW, HER PORTRAYAL EVEN NOW IS TOTALLY UNFAIR.
SO, WHAT I'VE JUST DESCRIBED WASN'T DONE FOR FUN, THOUGH I'M SURE THERE WERE MOMENTS OF FUN.
IT WAS A STRATEGIC CAMPAIGN.
SHE WAS ONLY 22, 23 WHEN SHE WAS DOING THIS.
SHE KNEW EXACTLY WHAT SHE WAS DOING.
THE PRESSURE ON HER WAS IMMENSE.
BUT SHE GOT THE TASTE FOR POWER.
SHE WAS BESIDE CHURCH HIM AS HE WAGED A WORLD WAR, SHE SPENT THE REST OF HER LIFE AFTER THE WAR WHEN SHE WAS DIVORCED FROM CHURCHILL'S SON, TRYING TO RECREATE THAT -- THAT SENSE OF POWER, THAT ACCESS TO THE CENTER OF EVERYTHING.
EVENTUALLY, SHE FOUND THAT, AND THIS IS WHERE THE KINGMAKER COMES IN.
SHE FOUND THAT IN THE STATES.
SHE MARRIED ONE AMERICAN, HE DIED, SHE THEN MARRIED ADMIRAL HARRIMAN.
HE WAS JUST REALLY AS THE REPUBLICANS WERE TAKING A VERY FIRM GRIP OF THE WHITE HOUSE, HER JOB WAS, HOW DO WE GET THE WHITE HOUSE BACK FOR THE DEMOCRATS?
>> AND YOU DID TALK TO PRESIDENT CLINTON, RIGHT, ABOUT PAMELA AND I THINK WE HAVE A LITTLE BIT HERE OF WHAT HE ACKNOWLEDGED AT PAMELA'S FUNERAL.
>> TODAY, I AM HERE IN NO SMALL MEASURE BECAUSE SHE WAS THERE.
SHE WAS ONE OF THE EASIEST CHOICES I MADE FOR ANY APPOINTMENT WHEN I BECAME PRESIDENT.
>> SO, HE'S TALKING ABOUT THE APPOINTMENT AS AMBASSADOR TO FRANCE.
THAT'S WHERE I MET HER, AND I OBVIOUSLY TALKED TO YOU A LITTLE BIT FOR YOUR BOOK, BECAUSE SHE WAS A REAL POWERHOUSE.
DURING THE PHASES OF THE BOSNIA WAR, SHE WAS A CONVENER, WHETHER SHE HAD, YOU KNOW, AMERICAN OFFICIALS THERE OR THE BALKAN LEADERS.
IT WAS AN EXTRAORDINARY THING.
AND SHE WAS ASKED TO HELP SMOOTH RELATIONS WITH THE UNITED STATES.
>> YES, HELPING CLINTON INTO THE WHITE HOUSE, WHICH HE HAS FREQUENTLY ACKNOWLEDGED, AND HE, AS A REWARD, MADE HER AMBASSADOR TO FRANCE, WHERE, AGAIN, PEOPLE EXPECTED HER TO JUST BE SORT OF, YOU KNOW, A SOCIALITE, BUT BEHIND CLOSED DOORS, SHE WAS ANYTHING BUT.
BOSNIA WAS HER BIG TEST.
SHE REMEMBERED WHAT IT WAS LIKE FROM THE WAR, WHAT IT WAS LIKE TO BE IN THE BLITZ.
SHE GAVE BIRTH DURING AN AIR RAID, SHE KNEW THE HORROR AND TERROR OF WAR IN A WAY THESE GUYS THAT SHE WAS WORKING WITH DIDN'T.
THEY WERE TOO YOUNG OR -- TO REMEMBER OR THEY'D BEEN BORN AFTER THE WAR.
SHE BROUGHT A MORAL COMPASS, IF YOU LIKE, TO THOSE NEGOTIATIONS.
AND SHE ALSO BECAME SUPER TRUSTED BY BOTH PRESIDENT CIRAC OF FRANCE AND PRESIDENT CLINTON BACK IN WASHINGTON.
ALL AMBASSADORS ARE TRYING TO PERFORM THAT ROAM.
VERY, VERY FEW EVER QUITE ACHIEVE IT THE WAY SHE DID.
AND SHE CREATED THAT FEELING OF TRUST, THAT ALLIANCE, THAT LED TO THE INTERVENTION IN BOSNIA AND THE SORT OF PEACE THAT WE HAVE NOW, HOWEVER IMPERFECT THAT MIGHT BE.
AND BOTH SIDES SAY SHE WAS ABSOLUTELY A KEY PART IN MAKING THAT HAPPEN.
AND YET THAT'S NEVER BEEN TALKED ABOUT.
IT'S REMAINED BEHIND CLOSED DOORS.
THIS IS PART OF HER ASTONISHING STORY, WHICH SCANNED, YOU KNOW, ALL SORTS OF THINGS DURING THE 20th CENTURY.
THAT BEING JUST ONE OF THEM.
>> YOU'VE MADE A BIT OF A CAREER ON EXPOSING THE TRUE FACE OF SOME OF THESE AMAZING PUBLIC WOMEN.
PAMELA HARRIMAN, CLEMENTINE CHURCHILL.
REFLECT ON THAT A LITTLE BIT.
THERE'S SO MUCH MISJOJNY, SO MUCH SEXISM IN THE WAY THESE WOMEN ARE PORTRAYED.
PARTICULARLY PAMELA.
DO YOU FEEL A MISSION TO CORRECT THAT RECORD?
>> I DO.
I'M QUITE AFFECTED BY WHAT THESE WOMEN DID, HOW THEY'VE NEVER BEEN GIVEN MUCH CREDIT -- OF ANY CREDIT FOR IT.
BUT MORE THAN THAT, THEY'VE OFTEN BEEN PORTRAYED IN THE MOST UNFLATTERING WAY.
WITH PAMELA, THAT STILL HAPPENS.
PEOPLE STILL SAY, YOU KNOW, SHE WAS JUST A COURTESAN, SHE WAS JUST A GOLD DIGGER.
OKAY, SHE HAD A GLAMOROUS LIFE, AND OKAY, SHE WAS THE MISTRESS OR WIFE OF A NUMBER OF RICH AND POWERFUL MEN, BUT WHAT SHE DID WITH THAT ACCESS AND WEALTH, WHAT SHE DID WITH THAT POSITION, IS EXTRAORDINARY, PERHAPS UNIQUE, AND WE ACTUALLY OWE HER AN AWFUL LOT.
ANOTHER THING THAT SHE DID WAS TRY AND BRING RUSSIA AND AMERICA TOGETHER, SHE WENT TO MOSCOW AT ONE POINT IN 1983, TOOK A MESSAGE BACK TO WASHINGTON SAYING THAT RUSSIA, OR, THE SOVIET UNION, AS IT WAS THEN, WAS FINALLY OPEN TO CREATING NEW CHANNELS OF COMMUNICATION AND PERHAPS ULTIMATELY SOME KIND OF ARMS REDUCTION TREATY.
SO, SHE WAS WAY MORE THAN JUST A COURTESAN.
>> IT IS EXTRAORDINARY.
AND I -- I REALLY DID ADMIRE HER.
I THOUGHT SHE WAS AN INCREDIBLY CLEVER AND -- AND AMAZING WOMAN.
AND IT'S REALLY INTERESTING, BECAUSE YOUR BOOK HAS HAD TREMENDOUS REVIEWS, PEOPLE HAVE ACKNOWLEDGED THE FACT THAT HERE YOU HAVE ACTUALLY TOLD A STORY ABOUT AN IMPORTANT WOMAN OF HISTORY WHO NEVER GOT HER DUE PROPERLY.
>> WELL, THAT'S WHAT I'M TRYING TO DO.
AND A LOT OF PEOPLE HELPED ME ALONG THE WAY, INCLUDING PRESIDENT CLINTON, INCLUDING YOUR GOOD SELF.
IT WAS AMAZING TO GET YOUR INSIGHT, TOO.
I THOUGHT IT WAS A REALLY IMPORTANT THING TO DO, AND I'M REALLY GLAD THEY DID.
THERE ARE VERY FEW PEOPLE LIKE PAMELA.
WE MAY NEVER SEE HER LIKE AGAIN.
>> SONIA, THANK YOU SO MUCH, INDEED.
>>> AND NOW, A SLIGHTLY HOPEFUL LOOK.
MAYBE A VERY HOPEFUL LOOK AT HOW TO NOT ONLY CONFRONT THE CLIMATE CRISIS THAT GRIPS OUR WORLD, BUT ALSO HOW TO FLOURISH IN THE PROCESS.
AYANA ELIZABETH JOHNSON, A LEADING MARINEBIOLOGIST, SAT DOWN WITH HARI TO DISCUSS HER VISION FOR THE FUTURE.
AND FARMING, FINANCE, AND FASHION, HELP SHAPE HER IDEAS.
>> CHRISTIANE, THANK YOU.
PROFESSOR AYANA JOHNSON, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.
FIRST OF ALL, THE TITLE OF YOUR BOOK, "WHAT IF WE GET IT RIGHT: VISIONS OF CLIMATE FUTURES."
I HAVE READ SEVERAL BOOKS ABOUT KIND OF CLIMATE CHANGE AND CLIMATE SCIENCE, NEVER REALLY ONE WITH THIS PARTICULAR KIND OF TWIST ON IT.
WHY DID YOU WANT TO APPROACH ALL THE CONVERSATIONS THAT YOU FEATURED IN THIS BOOK, WITH THIS PARTICULAR BEND, OR THIS THESIS?
>> THE TITLE QUESTION REALLY HELPS TO FRAME OR REFRAME THE CLIMATE CONVERSATION AROUND SOLUTIONS.
I THINK SO OFTEN, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE PROBLEM, OR WE'RE TALKING EXCLUSIVELY ABOUT TECHNOLOGY AND ELECTRICITY, AND WE'RE NOT REALLY THINKING ABOUT ALL THE SOLUTIONS WE HAVE AT OUR FINGERTIPS, AND THE TRANSFORMATION THAT'S REQUIRED TO OUR ECONOMY AND SOCIETY IN ORDER TO ACCELERATE IMPLEMENTATION OF ALL OF THOSE.
I REALLY JUST WANTED TO SAY TO EVERYONE, WE HAVE THE SOLUTIONS WE NEED, RIGHT?
WE KNOW HOW TO DO CLEAN ENERGY AND PUBLIC TRANSIT AND GREEN OUR BUILDINGS.
AND SHIFT OUR AGRICULTURE AND PROTECT AND RESTORE ECOSYSTEMS, RIGHT?
NONE OF THIS IS, LIKE, A BIG MYSTERY.
IT'S JUST A MATTER OF THE SPEED AND SCALE AT WHICH WE'RE ABLE TO GET THOSE SOLUTIONS HAPPENING OUT IN THE WORLD, AND AS YOU MENTIONED, THIS BOOK IS IN MANY WAYS AN ANTHOLOGY THAT FEATURES INTERVIEWS WITH 20 EXPERTS, COLLEAGUES,FRIENDS OF MINE, WHO HAVE HELPED ME ANSWER THIS QUESTION AND SEE THE WAY FORWARD IN TERMS OF VE VIGSS OF FUTURES.
>> HOW DO YOU WALK THAT LINE BETWEEN GIVING PEOPLE SOME HOPE, AND MAYBE BREAKING THEM OUT OF THEIR EXISTING NARRATIVE -- OKAY, WELL, THIS IS WELL BEYOND OUR REACH, THE SCALE OF THIS IS SO MASSIVE, I'VE SEEN THESE NUMBERS, AH, WHAT CAN I DO?
SORT OF THAT LEVEL OF KIND OF HOPELESSNESS, TO KIND OF MAKING SURE THAT IT'S NOT THE OTHER WAY, OR, THE OTHER EXTREME, LIKE, WELL, WE CAN FIX THIS IF YOU JUST START RECYCLING TOMORROW.
>> FIRST, I'LL SAY, PEOPLE FEEL OVERWHELMED BY THE CLIMATE CRISIS, THAT'S ACTUALLY A TOTALLY REASONABLE THING TO FEEL.
IT'S THE BIGGEST CHALLENGE HUMANITY HAS EVER FACED, RIGHT?
AND WE HAVE REALLY DONE A LOT TO THROW OUR ECOSYSTEMS, OUR ATMOSPHERE, OUT OF BALANCE.
SO, IT IS A LOT TO PROCESS.
I CAN UNDERSTAND WHY PEOPLE ARE ANXIOUS AND WORRIED OR DEPRESSED ABOUT IT.
BUT WE DON'T GET TO, LIKE, GIVE UP ON THE FUTURE OF LIFE ON THIS PLANET, RIGHT?
LIKE, WHO ARE WE TO GIVE UP ON EARTH, EACH OTHER, LIKE, WE CAN'T, ACTUALLY, ALL GO TO MARS, SO, WE HAVE TO MAKE IT WORK HERE, IT'S JUST A MATTER OF REALLY, I GUESS, A MIR ACCURATE TITLE FOR THE BOOK WOULD BE "WHAT IF WE GET IT AS RIGHT AS POSSIBLE?"
BECAUSE I FEEL LIKE SO OFTEN, THE CONVERSATION IS AS IF IT'S BINARY, RIGHT?
AS IF IT'S EITHER APOCALYPSE OR PARADISE WHEN, OF COURSE, IT'S ANYTHING IN BETWEEN.
AND THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN GETTING IT, LIKE, 60% RIGHT AND 80% RIGHT IS HUGE IN TERMS OF OUR QUALITY OF LIFE ON THIS PLANET.
THE KINDS OF HEAT WAVES AND STORMS AND DROUGHTS AND FLOODS AND FIRES AND AMOUNT OF SEA LEVEL RISE WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO TALK ABOUT.
WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF LIVES ON THE LINE IF WE VEER MUCH MORE ON THE APOCALYPSE SIDE THAN THE PARADISE SIDE.
I WOULD SAY TO PEOPLE WHO FEEL LIKE, WHERE DO WE BEGIN, IS IT WORTH IT?
YES.
THOSE INCREMENTS ARE SO BIG THAT THEY MATTER.
EVEN IF THEY SEEM SMALL, LIKE, A TENTH OR A HALF OF A DEGREE OF WARMING THAT WE CAN COLLECTIVELY PREVENT WOULD BE A VERY BIG IMPROVEMENT.
AND FOR THE PEOPLE WHO ARE, LIKE, TECHNOLOGY'S JUST GOING TO FIX THIS, LIKE, WELL, WHEN?
YOU KNOW?
I MEAN, FUSION ENERGY WOULD BE REALLY COOL, BUT IT'S NOT HERE YET.
SO, WE DO HAVE TO THINK ABOUT ENERGY EFFICIENCY, AND WE DO HAVE TO THINK ABOUT GREEN BUILDINGS AND INSULATION AND PUBLIC TRANSIT AND ALL OF THOSE THINGS THAT WE CAN DO.
WE HAVE TO THINK ABOUT COMPOSTING AND BIKE LANES AND OFFSHORE WIND ENERGY AND RESTORING AND PROTECTING ECOSYSTEMS.
WE COULD JUST START ON ALL OF THAT NOW, ESSENTIALLY, IN SOME WAYS, TO BUY US TIME UNTIL WE HAVE THESE OTHER SOLUTIONS.
>> YOU KNOW, YOU AND YOUR GUESTS POINT OUT SEVERAL DIFFERENT WAYS IN THE BOOK HOW ACROSS PARTY LINES IT IS WHEN IT COMES TO THE POLLING ON WHETHER OR NOT PEOPLE THINK CLIMATE CHANGE IS REAL, WHETHER THEY WANT TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT, AND THEN THERE SEEMS TO BE ALSO A GAP ON WHETHER THEY FEEL LIKE THEY CAN DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.
>> YEAH.
YEAH.
I MEAN, TO BE CLEAR, THERE IS A HUGE DIVISION IN THIS COUNTRY POLITICALLY BETWEEN THE DEMOCRATS AND THE REPUBLICANS ON CLIMATE.
I DON'T WANT TO SUGARCOAT THAT, RIGHT?
WE HAVE ONE PARTY WHO MANY PEOPLE DENY IT EXISTS, AND ANOTHER PARTY PASSING SWEEPING LEGISLATION TO ADVANCE SOLUTIONS.
AND THE CONSTITUENTS, WHEN YOU POLL, THERE IS DEFINITELY A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS, BUT INTERESTINGLY, STILL THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE WOULD LIKE OUR GOVERNMENT TO DO MORE TO PROTECT CLEAN AIR AND CLEAN WATER, RIGHT?
SO, WE DON'T ACTUALLY HAVE TO SPEND ALL OF OUR TIME ARGUING ABOUT THE DETAILS OF CLIMATE CHANGE OR EVEN THE ORIGINS OF IT, WE CAN JUST AGREE TO GET TO WORK ON THE SOLUTIONS.
PEOPLE IN OHIO AND TEXAS ARE VERY EXCITED THAT THEIR STATES HAVE THE BIGGEST AMOUNT OF WIND ENERGY, THOSE ARE GOOD JOBS, RIGHT?
IT'S NOT JUST FOR HIPPIES.
IT'S A REALLY FINANCIALLY VIABLE MARKET, RENEWABLE ENERGY, RIGHT?
AND FOR YOUNG PEOPLE, THERE'S A TON OF CONCERN ACROSS PARTY LINES, BUT MUCH MORE THAN OTHERS MIGHT EXPECT FOR YOUNG REPUBLICANS, WHO ARE, LIKE, YOU'RE SETTING OUR PLANET ON FIRE, CAN YOU PLEASE STOP, RIGHT?
SO, THERE'S THIS GENERATIONAL SHIFT HAPPENING, WHICH I THINK IS REALLY PROMISING.
AND THERE'S ALSO VERY SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCES ACROSS RACE IN THE COUNTRY.
IT'S SOMETHING LIKE 47% OF WHITE AMERICANS ARE CONCERNED ABOUT CLIMATE CHANGE, COMPARED TO 65% OF -- OF BLACK AND ASIAN AMERICANS AND 70% OF LATINOS.
SO, WHEN WE THINK ABOUT THE TYPICAL ENVIRONMENTALIST, WE PROBABLY ARE THINKING OF A NOTION THAT'S NOT ACTUALLY BORN OUT BY THE DEMOGRAPHICS AND THE POLLING.
AND IF WE WANT TO SUCCESSFULLY BUILD THE BIGGEST, STRONGEST TEAM TO ADDRESS THE CLIMATE CRISIS, WE NEED TO THINK ABOUT WELCOMING EVERYONE IN WHO IS CONCERNED, AND HELPING EVERYONE FIND THEIR ROLE.
>> WHEN YOU START TALKING ABOUT RACE AND DEMOGRAPHICS AND HOW PEOPLE OF COLOR ARE INTERESTED IN SOLVING THIS, HOW DID YOU GET INTERESTED IN SCIENCE, HOW DID YOU GET INTERESTING IN THE CLIMATE AS YOU WERE GROWING UP?
BECAUSE MOST LIKELY, THE CLIMATE SCIENCE ROLE MODELS DID NOT LOOK LIKE YOU.
>> WELL, FIRST, I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO SAY ON THAT ISSUE OF, LIKE, THE RACIAL DIFFERENCES THAT IT'S NOT BECAUSE PEOPLE OF COLOR ARE MORE IMPACTED, ALTHOUGH THAT IS TRUE.
THERE IS A GRAVE INJUSTICE TO THE CLIMATE CRISIS THAT THE PEOPLE WHO DID THE LEAST TO CAUSE IT IN TERMS OF EMISSIONS ARE BEARING THE GREATEST BRUNT OF THE IMPACTS.
IT IS, IN FACT, BECAUSE PEOPLE OF COLOR TEND TO HAVE A MORE COMMUNAL WORLD VIEW, AS OPPOSED TO INDIVIDUALIST, RIGHT?
THIS SENSE THAT WE'RE ALL IN IT TOGETHER, AND, LIKE, WE BETTER FIGURE OUT HOW TO COLLECTIVELY ADDRESS THIS CRISIS.
SO, I WOULD JUST ENCOURAGE US ALL TO EMBRACE MORE OF THAT COLLECTIVE WISDOM, COLLECTIVE ACTION, AS THE SOLUTION, AS OPPOSED TO JUST MAKING SURE WE ARE, AS INDIVIDUALS, GET THROUGH THIS MOMENT OKAY.
AND THAT, YOU KNOW, SORT OF REFLECTS ON MY CAREER, AS YOU ASKED.
I FELL IN LOVE WITH THE OCEAN AT A YOUNG AGE, AS MANY PEOPLE DO.
AND THEN REALIZED IT WAS THREATENED AND WAS LIKE -- HOW DO WE SAVE CORAL REEFS?
HOW DO WE PROTECT COASTAL COMMUNITIES THAT DEPEND ON THE OCEAN FOR THEIR ECONOMIES, THEIR LIVELIHOODS, THEIR CULTURES, RIGHT?
MY DAD IS FROM JAMAICA.
SO MANY PEOPLE WHO LIVE, ESPECIALLY IN THE TROPICS, ARE VERY HEAVILY DEPENDENT ON THE OCEAN FOR FOOD SECURITY, ELEMENT SET TRA.
THEIR ECONOMIES.
SO, I ALWAYS, YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU LOVE SOMETHING, YOU WANT TO HELP PROTECT IT, SO, I ENCOURAGE ALL OF US TO THINK ABOUT HOW TO HARNESS THAT LOVE OF NATURE AS PART OF OUR INSPIRATION.
BUT THEN, I QUICKLY LEARNED THAT IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT SNORKELING WITH COLORFUL FISH, IT IS THIS QUESTION OF POLICY, ECONOMICS, POLITICS, SORT OF SOCIOLOGY, BEHAVIORAL PSYCHOLOGY, THAT YOU HAVE TO FIT ALL THESE PIECES TOGETHER TO THINK ABSOLUTIOOUT SOLUTIONS THAT WOULD BE PRACTICAL.
SO, MY WORK HAS EVOLVED -- COLEAD AN OCEAN POLICY THINK TANK, BECAUSE I THINK WE NEED TO CHANGE THE POLICY FRAMEWORKS FOR OUR COASTAL CITIES, SO URBAN OCEAN LAB IS MAKING RECOMMENDATIONS FOR HOW TO ADDRESS A LOT OF THESE CLIMATE IMPACTS IN THE PLACE WHERE 1 IN 5 AMERICANS LIVE, WHICH IS OUR COASTAL CITIES.
>> WHAT YOU DO REALLY WELL AND YOUR GUESTS DO REALLY WELL IS TALK ABOUT HOW KIND OF CLIMATE CHANGE IS EXACERBATED BY LOTS OF OTHER THINGS THAT WE DON'T CONNECT ON A DAILY BASIS.
FAST FASHION, FOR EXAMPLE, IS AN INCREDIBLY MASSIVE INDUSTRY, AND, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE ARE CONSTANTLY LOOKING FOR LOW PRICES, WALKING TO SOME OF THESE STORES FOR PRACTICALLY DISPOSABLE CLOTHING, BUT THERE ARE MUCH MORE SIGNIFICANT COSTS WITH THIS ENTIRE INFRASTRUCTURE.
>> YEAH, I WAS FLIPPING TO THE PAGE OF THE BOOK.
EACH SECTION OPENS WITH A LIST OF TEN PROBLEMS AND TEN POSSIBILITIES.
I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO PUT THOSE TWO SIDE-BY-SIDE.
AND THE ONE ON FASHION IS THAT AMERICANS DISPOSE OF ABOUT 13 MILLION TONS OF CLOTHING AND FOOTWEAR EACH YEAR, OF WHICH ONLY 13% IS RECYCLED.
THE AVERAGE FAST FASHION GARMENT IS WORN ON SEVEN TIMES BEFORE IT'S DISCARDED.
AND OVERALL, THE FASHION INDUSTRY IS RESPONSIBLE FOR ABOUT 10% OF GLOBAL CARBON EMISSIONS, AND 20% INDUSTRIAL WATER POLLUTION, AND THAT IS RISING.
SO, AS MUCH AS, YOU KNOW, IT'S AN INCONVENIENT TRUTH, TO BORROW A PHRASE FROM AL GORE, A MOVIE TITLE I DID NOT APPRECIATE TRLY UNTIL RYING THIS BOOK, WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO CHANGE SOME OF THE WAYS THAT WE LIVE ON THIS PLANET.
EARTH CANNOT SUPPORT THIS LEVEL OF CONSUMERISM AND DISPO DISPOSABILITY.
>> SOMETHING THAT CAUGHT MY EYE A FEW TIMES IN THIS READ WAS, THERE'S ALMOST LIKE THESE SORT OF WAR OF NARRATIVES, AND PEOPLE WHO HAVE A LOT OF RESOURCES CAN TRY TO PUSH THE BLAME ONTO THE INDIVIDUAL, MAYBE, AWAY FROM GOVERNMENTS OR CORPORATIONS.
>> YEAH.
YEAH, THE FOLLOW THE MONEY SECTION, ONE OF THE STATISTICS THAT BACKS THAT UP IN DETAIL IS THAT THE RICHEST 10% OF THE POPULATION OWNS 76% OF THE WEALTH, TAKES 52% OF THE INCOME, AND ACCOUNTS FOR 48% OF GLOBAL CARBON EMISSIONS.
THAT'S THE RICHEST 10% ACCOUNTING FOR 48% OF EMISSIONS.
AND THE POOREST 50% -- 50% -- OF THE WORLD GETS ONLY 8.5% OF THE INCOME AND ACCOUNTS FOR 12% OF THE EMISSIONS.
AND SO, THAT'S THE KIND OF DISCREPANCY THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HERE.
AND THERE'S, YOU KNOW, A SIMILAR CHALLENGE WITH WHAT THE BANKS ARE DOING.
THE TOP U.S. BANKS SINCE THE LAST DECADE, SO, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT JPMORGAN STATE, CITIBANK, BANK OF AMERICA, HAVE PROVIDED $1.5 TRILLION TO FOSSIL FUEL COMPANIES TO EXPAND THEIR OPERATIONS.
SO, IN A MOMENT WHERE WE NEED TO BE INVESTING IN THE TRANSITION TO CLEAN ENERGY AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE, WE'RE SEEING MASSIVE INVESTMENTS STILL IN BUILDING OUT NEW FOSSIL FUEL INFRASTRUCTURE, WHICH IS TOTALLY RIDICULOUS.
PROBABLY ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT THINGS YOU CAN DO AT A HOUSEHOLD LEVEL IS MOVE WHERE YOU HAVE YOUR MONEY.
SO, IF YOU HAVE YOUR MONEY IN ONE OF THOSE BANKS, YOU ARE PROBABLY FINANCING THE FOSSIL FUEL INDUSTRY TO SOME DEGREE, AND THERE'S BEEN RESEARCH THAT SHOWS BY BANK FORWARD AND OTHERS THAT IF YOU HAVE $125,000 SAVED UP FOR RETIREMENT, AND THAT MONEY IS NOT IN A CLIMATE-FRIENDLY FUND, THAT MONEY, BEING LOANED OUT TO FUND FOSSIL FUEL STUFF, IS DOING MORE HARM THAN ALL THE GOOD YOU COULD POSSIBLY DO TO BALANCE IT OUT IN TERMS OF JUST EATING PLANTS, ONLY WALKING AND RIGIDRIDING YOUR BIKE, ET CETERA.
IF PEOPLE ARE LOOKING FOR A SPECIFIC THING THEY CAN DO, YOU KNOW, IT'S KIND OF A PAIN IN A BUTT TO SPEND A DAY RESEARCHING IT AND FILLING OUT THE FORMS TO MOVE YOUR MONEY, BUT THAT CAN MAKE A BIG DIFFERENCE.
AND, YOU KNOW, GREEN ENERGY COMPANIES ARE MAKING PROFIT, THEY'RE GROWING REALLY QUICKLY, SO -- THAT'S -- THAT'S SOMETHING I HOPE PEOPLE WOULD LOOK INTO.
>> THERE'S A QUOTE IN YOUR BOOK FROM ANGELA DAVIS, IT SAYS, YOU HAVE TO ACT AS IF IT WERE POSSIBLE TO RADICALLY TRANSFORM THE WORLD, AND YOU HAVE TO DO IT ALL THE TIME.
HOW DO PEOPLE BALANCE KIND OF THAT SENSE OF URGENCY, ESPECIALLY WHEN CLIMATE AS A PROBLEM SEEMS SO DAUNTING?
>> AND IT'S SOMETHING THAT WE HAVE TO DEAL WITH FOR THE REST OF OUR LIVES.
IT'S NOT LIKE WE CAN WORK REALLY HAROLD FOR A MONTH AND THEN IT'S OVER.
SO, WHAT I ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO DO IS REALLY THINK ABOUT HOW THEY SPECIFICALLY CAN BE USEFUL.
SO, I PROPOSED THIS FRAMEWORK OF A CLIMATE ACTION VENN DIAGRAM WITH THREE CIRCLES.
AND THE FIRST ONE IS, WHAT ARE YOU GOOD AT?
YOU KNOW, WHAT ARE THE SKILLS, THE RESOURCES, THE NETWORKS THAT YOU SPECIFICALLY CAN BRING TO THE TABLE?
THE SECOND CIRCLE IS, WHAT WORK NEEDS DOING?
RIGHT?
THERE ARE HUNDREDS OF CLIMATE AND JUSTICE SOLUTIONS.
SO, PICK ONE, OR A FEW THAT YOU WANT TO CONTRIBUTE YOUR SKILLS TO.
AND THEN, THE THIRD CIRCLE IS, WHAT BRINGS YOU JOY?
OR, SATISFACTION, GRATIFICATION, RIGHT?
THIS SENSE THAT YOU'RE ENERGIZED TO KEEP DOING THIS, BECAUSE THIS IS SOMETHING THAT WE'RE JUST GOING TO HAVE TO KEEP CHIPPING AWAY AT, AND MAKING BETTER, AND LEANING INTO THIS SENSE OF POSSIBILITY AND CREATION FOR AS LONG AS WE CAN POSSIBLY BE AROUND TO CONTRIBUTE.
AND BEING AT THE HEART OF THIS KIND OF VENN DIAGRAM, I THINK IS WHERE EVERYONE NEEDS TO FIND THEIR WAY TO, AND, OF COURSE, HARI, WHAT YOU WOULD DO AND WHAT I WOULD DO WOULD BE DIFFERENT, BECAUSE WE BRING DIFFERENT THINGS TO THE TABLE.
I WOULD ENCOURAGE PEOPLE LOOK BEYOND WHAT THEY WOULD THINK ABOUT IN THEIR PERSONAL LIFE, RIGHT?
DON'T JUST THINK ABOUT YOUR OWN CARBON FOOTPRINT, AND YOUR OWN MONEY AND YOUR OWN FAMILY, THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU CAN CONTRIBUTE WITHIN YOUR PROFESSIONAL LIFE.
HOW CAN YOU HELP THE CORPORATION YOU WORK FOR OR HELP TO LEAD, BECOME SOMETHING THAT'S CONTRIBUTING TO CLIMATE SOLUTIONS, INSTEAD OF A PROBLEM, RIGHT?
HOW CAN YOU HELP YOUR COMMUNITY, YOUR CITY, YOUR TOWN START TO MAKE THESE SHIFTS?
AND I THINK THERE'S JUST SO MUCH OPPORTUNITY THERE FOR US TO EACH ROLL UP OUR SLEEVES AND FIND WAYS TO BE USEFUL.
THAT'S THE WORD I KEEP COMING BACK TO, IS, LIKE, WE JUST ONLY DEFINE WAYS TO BE USEFUL.
>> I'VE GOT TO ASK, HOW DO YOU STAY IN THE ART OF THE POSSIBLE?
YOU HAVE A QUOTE IN HERE THAT SAYS, WE FIND OURSELVES IN A TIME OF RECKONING, AT AN INFLECTION POINT FOR HUMANITY.
WHAT WE WILL INFLECT TOWARDS IS NOT CLEAR.
WHAT GIVES YOU CONFIDENCE THAT WE CAN GET IT RIGHT?
>> I DON'T HAVE CONFIDENCE.
I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THE FUTURE MAY HOLD.
AND I ACTUALLY THINK BACK TO CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT LEADERS.
THE PHRASE THAT'S BEEN COMING TO MIND A LOT LATELY AS I AM OUT IN THE WORLD TALKING ABOUT THIS BOOK IS MARTIN LUTHER KING SAYS, I MAY NOT GET THERE WITH YOU.
AND NOT BECAUSE WE MAY NOT EVER SEE THE RESULTS OF OUR WORK, BECAUSE IT MAY NOT BE ADDRESSED THOROUGHLY IN OUR LIFETIMES DOESN'T MEAN WE SHOULD GIVE UP.
RIGHT?
WHO ARE WE TO GIVE UP?
ON LIFE ON THIS PLANET.
THAT'S A RIDICULOUS THING TO DO, TO GIVE UP ON EACH OTHER, TO GIVE UP ON MAKING THE WORLD BETTER THAN IT WOULD OTHERWISE BE.
AND SO, I KIND OF DON'T WORRY ABOUT THE END, THE OUTCOME, BECAUSE EVEN IF -- EVEN THOUGH I PERSONALLY CAN'T SOLVE CLIMATE CHANGE, I WILL FEEL BETTER LIVING AS A PERSON WHO IS CONTRIBUTING TO GETTING IT AS RIGHT AS POSSIBLE INSTEAD OF JUST WATCHING THE WORLD FALL APART BEFORE MY EYES.
>> PROFESSOR AYANA JOHNSON, AUTHOR OF THE BOOK "WHAT IF WE GET IT RIGHT: VISIONS OF CLIMATE FUTURES," THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.
>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.
>>> AND FINALLY TONIGHT, EXACTLY ONE YEAR AGO TODAY, THE WRONGFULLY DETAINED, LONGEST HELD AMERICAN CITIZEN IN IRAN WAS SET FREE ALONG WITH FOUR OTHER PRISONERS.
IT'S HARD TO FORGET THE EMOTIONAL MOMENT WHEN THEY STEPPED OFF THAT PLANE AND EMBRACED HIS BROTHER AND FATHER.
SIX MONTHS EARLIER, HE HAD MADE AN AUDACIOUS APPEAL ON THIS PROGRAM FROM INSIDE JAIL FOR PRESIDENT BIDEN.
NOW, HE'S SPENT MOST OF THIS PAST YEAR, IN FACT, ALL OF IT, IN FREEDOM, PRIVATELY RECOVERING FROM THE ORDEAL, BUT GRADUALLY, FIRST, WITH A LETTER TO THE EDITOR OF "THE ECONOMIST," A POWERFUL FELLOW INMATE HAD AGREED TO SMUGGLE THE WEEKLY NEWS MAGAZINE INTO THE NOTORIOUS PRISON FOR HIM, AND IT BECAME A LIFELINE.
HE WRITES, "THESE CONTRABAND COPIES BECAME OUR SECRET TREASURE, OFFERING ALESS SPITE FROM THE MON NOTNY OF CAPTIVITY.
WE DEVOURED THE MAGAZINES, FEELING A SENSE OF NORMALCY."
HE GOES ON TO SAY, "THOUGH YOU WERE DENIED A FEW YEARS WORTH OF SUBSCRIPTION FEES, I HOPE YOU CAN FORGIVE THIS CAPTIVE ENTHUSIAST."
AND THAT'S IT FOR NOW.
THANK YOU FOR WATCHING, AND GOOD-BYE FROM LONDON.
>>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.
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AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM.
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THANK YOU.
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