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>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & CO." HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.
A GROWING CATASTROPHE IN LEBANON AS WESTERN POWERS PUSH ISRAEL AND HEZBOLLAH FOR A CEASEFIRE.
WE HAVE THE LATEST FROM THE REGION.
THEN, WITH CONFLICTS RAGING FROM SUDAN TO HAITI, KENYA HAS EMERGED AS AN IMPORTANT PEACEKEEPER, EVEN AS IT GRAPPLES WITH ITS OWN DEADLY PROTESTS.
THE PRESIDENT, WILLIAM RUTO, JOINS THE SHOW.
>>> PLUS -- >> OVER THE PAST 11 MONTHS IS HARD TO DRAG OTHERS INTO THE WAR.
>> AS FEARS OF A WIDER MIDDLE EAST WAR GROW, IRAN'S VICE PRESIDENT, JAVAD ZARIF GIVES ME ITS LAY OF THE LAND AND WHETHER THE NEW REFORMIST PRESIDENT WILL IMPROVE WOMEN'S RIGHTS AT HOME.
>>> ALSO AHEAD -- >> WE'VE LOST TRUST IN SCIENCE ALONG THE WAY, ALMOST AS IF SOME PEOPLE HAVE TO BE THE PRO SCIENCE, AND THEN THE OTHERS HAVE TO BE THE ANTI-SCIENCE.
>> FORMER NIH DIRECTOR FRANCIS COLLINS JOINS WALTER ISAACSON TO DISCUSS HIS NEW BOOK, "THE ROAD TO WISDOM" ON TRUTH, SCIENCE, FAITH, AND TRUST.
♪♪♪ >>> "AMANPOUR & CO." IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS CANDACE KING WEIR THE SYLVIA A.
AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS MARK J. BLECHNER THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION SETON J. MELVIN THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND CHARLES ROSENBLUM KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.
THANK YOU.
>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.
I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN NEW YORK.
THE MIDDLE EAST AND WORLD LEADERS HERE AT THE U.N. ARE ON EDGE AS ISRAEL PREPARES FOR A POSSIBLE GROUND OPERATION IN LEBANON.
BOTH SIDES HAVE LAUNCHED DOZENS OF STRIKES TODAY AS THE DEATH TOLL CLIMBS.
23 PEOPLE FROM THE SAME FAMILY WERE KILLED IN ONE AIR STRIKE ALONE, WHICH WAS ON LEBANON.
MEANTIME, THE U.S. AND FRANCE, AMONG OTHERS, ARE WORKING FEVERISHLY ON A CEASEFIRE PLAN BETWEEN ISRAEL AND THE MILITANT GROUP HEZBOLLAH.
WHILE ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, WHO IS EXPECTED TO ADDRESS THE U.N. GENERAL ASSEMBLY TOMORROW, SIGNALS NO SUCH RESTRAINT.
HIS MESSAGE TO THE IDF IS KEEP FIGHTING.
BEN WEDEMAN IS JOINING US FROM SOUTHERN LEBANON.
SO, BEN, FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE, ARE YOU HEARING ANYTHING ABOUT A SLOWDOWN OR A CEASEFIRE?
AND HOW BAD ARE THESE STRIKES ON THE LEADERSHIP OF HEZBOLLAH?
WE HEAR YET ANOTHER LEADER HAS BEEN TARGETED ACCORDING TO THE ISRAELIS.
>> YES, WELL, THERE WAS A STRIKE THIS AFTERNOON ON A NEIGHBORHOOD IN SOUTHERN BEIRUT WHERE HEZBOLLAH HAS A STRONG PRESENCE.
WE HAVE YET TO HEAR FROM HEZBOLLAH AS TO WHO, IF ANYBODY WAS HIT IN THAT STRIKE.
BUT THAT WAS THE FOURTH STRIKE SINCE LAST FRIDAY.
AND DEFINITELY WHAT WE'VE SEEN GOING BACK TO THE 30th OF JULY WITH THE ASSASSINATION OF HEZBOLLAH'S TOP MILITARY LEADER, FEUD SCHUCH SHUKR.
YOU TAKE INTO THE SHOCK AND AWE THE STRIKES WE SAW FRIDAY, WHICH HAVE CONTINUED IN A MUCH LOWER PACE SINCE THEN.
CERTAINLY IT HAS HAD A DEFINITE IMPACT.
AND WE'VE HEARD HEZBOLLAH OFFICIALS CONCEDING THAT THEY SINCE THOSE PAGER ATTACKS AND EVERYTHING THAT'S FOLLOWED, THEY HAVE TAKEN A SEVERE BLOW FROM THE ISRAELIS.
NONETHELESS, DESPITE ALL OF THAT, THEY CONTINUE TO FIRE BACK.
IN FACT, JUST OVER AN HOUR AGO, WE WATCHED AS A VOLLEY OF ROCKETS WAS FIRE NEW YEAR'S DAY THE BORDER WITH ISRAEL TOWARDS THE SOUTH.
SO THEY DON'T BE ABLE TO FIRE BACK, DESPITE ALL OF THAT.
NOW REGARDING CEASEFIRE, WE DID HEAR THAT LEBANESE CARETAKER PRIME MINISTER DID WELCOME THE AMERICAN FRENCH INITIATIVE, WITHOUT ACTUALLY ACCEPTING IT, HE SAID THAT THAT DEPENDS UPON ISRAEL'S IMPLEMENTATION OF THAT AGREEMENT.
SO WE'RE SORT OF IN A LIMBO RIGHT NOW.
KEEP IN MIND, OF COURSE, THAT ON THE ISRAELI SIDE, WE'VE ALREADY HEARD FROM THE TWO EXTREME HARD-LINERS IN THE ISRAELI CABINET, THAT THEY ABSOLUTELY REFUSE TO ACCEPT ANY FORM OF HALT, PAUSE, OR CEASEFIRE IN THE ONGOING ISRAELI CAMPAIGN IN LEBANON, WHICH IT'S WORTH NOTING AT THIS POINT THE DEATH TOLL, ACCORDING TO LEBANON'S DISASTER MANAGEMENT AUTHORITY, IS 1,540.
PUT THAT IN PERSPECTIVE.
THAT'S MORE PEOPLE KILLED IN FOUR DAYS THAN WERE KILLED IN 34 DAYS OF WAR BETWEEN HEZBOLLAH AND ISRAEL IN 2006.
CHRISTIANE?
>> BEN, BRIEFLY, YOU KNOW, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE DYNAMIC.
HEZBOLLAH TRIED OVER THE WEEKEND TO LAUNCH A MISSILE TOWARDS TEL AVIV.
IT WAS INTERCEPTED.
HAS THERE BEEN ANY OF THAT KIND OF SO-CALLED REDLINE BUSTING MOVE BY HEZBOLLAH?
AND AS YOU MENTIONED, THE ISRAELIS KEEP SAYING NO ROOM FOR A CEASEFIRE.
WE'RE GOING TO KEEP FIGHTING.
AND WE SEE WHAT'S HAPPENED IN GAZA IN THE WEST BANK, NOW IN LEBANON, THAT THERE IS NO STOPPING THEM.
IT SEEMS THAT THEY THINK THIS IS THE TIME TO NEUTRALIZE ANYTHING THAT'S A THREAT ON ANY OF THEIR BORDERS.
>> YES.
IN FACT, ONE ANALYST SAID ISRAEL IS GOING BACK TO PRE-2000.
IT'S BASICALLY REOCCUPYING GAZA AND ITS AMBITION IS TO CREATE SOME SORT OF SECURITY ZONE IN SOUTH LEBANON.
BOTH OF THOSE SITUATIONS WERE VERY HARMFUL TO ISRAEL.
I THINK THE ISRAELIS LOST MORE THAN 300 TROOPS DURING THEIR OCCUPATION OF SOUTH LEBANON BEFORE THEY WERE BASICALLY DRIVEN OUT BY HEZBOLLAH IN MAY OF 2000.
SO THEY SEEM TO BE GOING FOR BROKE AT THE MOMENT, BUT BROKE IN THIS CASE WILL COME AT A HIGH COST BECAUSE THEY'LL JUST FIND THEMSELVES IN THE SAME QUAGMIRE THAT THEY FOUND THEMSELVES IN GAZA AND SOUTH LEBANON AS THEY WERE PRIOR TO MAY 2000.
>> BEN, THANK YOU SO MUCH INDEED.
AND NOW WITH SO MUCH ATTENTION ON THE MIDDLE EAST AND UKRAINE, ANOTHER WAR BARELY ACKNOWLEDGED IS IN SUDAN.
IT'S RAPIDLY BECOMING ONE OF THE WORST HUMANITARIAN DISASTERS AS FAMINE IS DECLARED AFTER MONTHS OF CIVIL WAR.
THE SUDANESE ARMED FORCES ARE NOW MOUNTING A NEW OFFENSIVE TO TRY TO RETAKE THE CAPITAL KHARTOUM.
MANY COUNTRIES HAVE TRIED TO MEDIATE, INCLUDING KENYA.
SINCE THIS WAR BROKE OUT SOME 18 MONTHS AGO KILLING A NASCENT DEMOCRACY AMONGST ALL THE CIVILIANS AND PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN KILLED.
AND ACROSS THE GLOBE IN HAITI WHERE GANGS RUN RAMPANT, KENYA IS ALSO LEADING AN INTERNATIONAL POLICING FORCE TO TRY TO RESTORE ORDER THERE.
BUT KENYA'S PRESIDENT HAS ALSO BEEN UNDER IMMENSE PRESSURE AT HOME WITH A BRUTAL CRACKDOWN ON MASS PROTESTS THAT LED TO THE DEATHS OF MORE THAN 50 PEOPLE.
PRESIDENT WILLIAM RUTO IS JOINING ME NOW FROM THE U.N. HEADQUARTERS.
PRESIDENT RUTO, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
CAN I JUST ASK YOU, WHEN YOU SEE EVERYTHING THAT YOU GUYS ARE TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO CONTAIN THIS WEEK AT THE U.N., WHAT STANDS OUT FOR YOU MOST AS THE BIGGEST DANGER THAT AFFECTS YOU, FOR INSTANCE?
IS IT SUDAN?
IS IT THE MIDDLE EAST?
IS IT UKRAINE?
WHAT IS THE BIG ISSUE THAT'S ON YOUR MIND?
>> THE INTERNATIONAL PEACE AND STABILITY ARCHITECTURE THAT IS SUPPOSED TO SOLVE THOSE PROBLEMS.
AND THAT IS THE BIG DISCUSSION HERE IS HOW TO REFORM THE UNITED NATIONS SECURITY COUNCIL SO THAT IT STOPS BEING AN IMPEDIMENT TO WORLD PEACE AND SECURITY AND BECOMES A FACILITY OF DIPLOMACY AND OF DIALOGUE.
AS WE SPEAK TODAY, IN SUDAN WE HAVE CLOSE TO A MILLION PEOPLE WHO ARE FACING STARVATION.
WE HAVE SERIOUS SECURITY ISSUES.
WE HAVE SERIOUS HUMANITARIAN ISSUES.
AND IT IS OUR POSITION THAT IN SUDAN, THANKS TO THE UNITED NATIONS NOW RESOLUTION HAS BEEN MADE SO THAT AFRICAN PEACE OPERATIONS CAN NOW BE FUNDED BY ASSESS, CONTRIBUTIONS FROM THE U.N., THAT WILL GIVE THE AFRICA UNION ADDITIONAL CAPACITY TO MANAGE THE SITUATION IN OUR CONTINENT, INCLUDING THE SITUATION IN SUDAN.
>> SO LET ME ASK YOU AS PRESIDENT, BECAUSE YOU'VE TRIED TO INTERVENE IN A CERTAIN WAY.
YOU HAVE HOSTED THE RSF IN YOUR COUNTRY, I ASSUME TO TRY TO GET THEM TO BACK DOWN.
I DON'T KNOW.
YOU TELL ME.
BUT RIGHT NOW, THE SUDANESE ARMY IS ON THE OFFENSIVE AGAIN.
WHERE DO YOU THINK THE SOLUTION LIES?
AND WHAT RESPONSE DID YOU GET FROM THE RSF?
>> I HAVE HOSTED THE STAFF LEADER.
I HAVE HOEFTED HEMETI WHO IS THE LEADER.
I HAVE HOSTED THE FORMER PRIME MINISTER AND HOST OF POLITICAL LEADERS AND OTHER INTERLOCUTORS BECAUSE I BELIEVE THAT THE WAY TO GET SUDAN OUT OF THE CURRENT QUAGMIRE IS THROUGH DIALOGUE AND DIPLOMACY.
I AM PERSUADED LIKE MANY THAT A MILITARY SOLUTION WILL NOT COME OUT IN SUDAN.
AND THAT IS WHY KENYA IS DEEPLY INVESTED AND ENGAGED IN FINDING A SOLUTION, BRINGING TOGETHER ALL THE ACTORS.
THIS WILL NOT BE SOLVED BY TALKING TO THE MILITARY MEN ALONE.
WE NEED TO TALK TO THEIR POLITICAL LEADERS, WOMEN, CIVIL SOCIETY TO FIND THE SOLUTION.
IN ANY WAYS, THE REVOLUTION THAT REMOVED THE DICTATORSHIP IN SUDAN WAS A PEOPLE'S REVOLUTION, WHICH WAS HIJACKED BY MEN IN MILITARY UNIFORM, AND THEY HAVE MADE A MESS OF THE COUNTRY.
WE BELIEVE THAT IT IS TIME THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY LOOK AT SUDAN MUCH MORE KEENLY, BECAUSE WE ARE HAVING A HUMANITARIAN DISASTER IN THE OFFING IN SUDAN, ESPECIALLY BECAUSE OF THE FAMINE THAT IS IMMINENT.
FAMINE IS GOING TO POSSIBLY KILL MORE PEOPLE THAN THE GUNS ARE KILLING IN SUDAN IF WE ARE NOT CAREFUL.
>> MR. PRESIDENT, YOU SPEAK VERY FRANKLY, TALKING ABOUT A MESS CONDUCTED BY THE MEN IN UNIFORM IN SUDAN AND ELSEWHERE, AND YOU'VE ALSO CALLED I HEARD YOU SAY REFORM OF THE SECURITY COUNCIL AND THE AFRICAN UNION.
I WONDER IF THE AFRICAN UNION IS FIT FOR PURPOSE AND HOW YOU JUDGE AND ANALYZE THE BELT OF COUPS THAT HAVE TAKEN PLACE IN PREVIOUSLY DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED GOVERNMENTS IN AFRICA, YOU KNOW, FROM BURKINA FASO AND ON AND ON.
WHAT'S GOING ON YOUR CONTINENT?
>> I WANT TO TELL YOU, CHRISTIANE, THAT AS WE DISCUSS THE REFORM OF THE U.N., WE ARE INVESTED AS AFRICANS.
AND I AM LEADING BECAUSE MY COLLEAGUES IN THE AFRICAN CONTINENT ASSIGNED ME A REFORM OF THE AFRICA UNION ITSELF TO MAKE THE EXECUTIVE MORE FIT FOR PURPOSE, TO ENSURE THAT THE PARLIAMENT HOLDS THEIR EXECUTIVE MUCH MORE ACCOUNTABLE, AND TO BRING ON BOARD THE AFRICAN COURT OF JUSTICE SO THAT WE CAN SORT OUT ISSUES IN OUR AFRICAN CONTINENT.
WE ARE ALSO WORKING ON AFRICAN FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS, THE AFRICA DEVELOPMENT BANK, TRADE DEVELOPMENT BANK TO BUILD THE NECESSARY ECOSYSTEM FOR US TO BE ABLE TO SORT OUT OUR PROBLEMS IN THE CONTINENT.
SO EVEN AS WE PUSH FOR THE REFORM OF THE U.N., WE ARE REFORMING OUR OWN AFRICA UNION.
AND I WANT TO PROMISE THAT FEBRUARY NEXT YEAR, I AM GOING TO BE TABLING THE REFORM INITIATIVES AND PROGRAMS TO THE SUMMIT OF THE HEADS OF STATE FOR APPROVAL AND FOR IMPLEMENTATION.
>> CAN WE MOVE ACROSS THE WORLD TO THIS WESTERN HEMISPHERE HERE WHERE YOU ARE ALSO ENGAGED AND YOU JUST VISITED HAITI.
I MEAN, EVERYBODY REMEMBERS THE HORRENDOUS REPORTING AND PICTURES OF THE GANG NOT JUST VIOLENCE, BUT CONTROL OF HAITI.
YOU SENT SEVERAL HUNDRED PEACEKEEPING AND POLICING FORCES THERE, AND YOU SAY YOU'RE GOING TO SEND MORE.
IT'S STILL NOT STABILIZED.
WHAT ARE THE CHALLENGES?
AND HOW LONG DO YOU THINK IT'S GOING TO TAKE TO ACTUALLY, YOU KNOW, GET IT UNDER CONTROL?
>> I WAS IN HAITI A COUPLE OF DAYS AGO, AND I WAS IMPRESSED BY THE PROGRESS THAT HAS BEEN MADE BY THE 400 MSS SECURITY PERSONNEL THAT WE SENT FROM KENYA WORKING WITH THE HAITIAN POLICE.
TODAY, THE GUNS ARE SILENT AT THE AIRPORT.
THERE IS MORE TRAFFIC AT THE AIRPORT.
THE GUNS ARE SILENT AT THE PALACE, WHICH WAS UNDER SIEGE.
THE GUNS ARE SILENT IN THE NATIONAL HOSPITAL THAT WAS UNDER SIEGE.
THE NATIONAL POLICE ACADEMY THAT HAD BEEN OVERRUN BY GANGS TODAY IS TRAINING POLICE OFFICERS.
AND THE PORT IS MUCH MORE CALM.
MY ASSESSMENT, LISTENING TO THE COMMANDERS, LISTENING TO THE LEADERSHIP IN HAITI IS THAT WE NEED ADDITIONAL PERSONNEL.
THE CHALLENGE IS RESOURCES, LOGISTICS, AND EQUIPMENT.
AND WE HAVE HAD SEVERAL MEETINGS OF THE U.N.
LED BY CANADA.
I'M GOING HAVE A MEETING WITH SECRETARY BLINKEN AFTER THIS INTERVIEW BECAUSE WE BELIEVE THE JOB IN HAITI IS DOABLE.
THE LEADERSHIP IS ALIGNED, AND THE FORCES ON THE GROUND ARE ASKING US FOR EQUIPMENT, RESOURCES, AND LOGISTICS.
AND THEY WILL BE ABLE TO DO THE JOB.
>> LET ME MOVE BACK TO YOUR OWN CONTINENT AND WHAT YOU JUST TOUCHED ON, AND THE IDEA OF DEVELOPMENT, PROSPERITY, HOW YOU CAN ONLY HAVE THAT WITH PEACE, RIGHT.
CLEARLY, EVERYBODY WATCHED WHAT HAPPENED IN YOUR COUNTRY NOT SO LONG AGO.
YOU ARE UNDER A CRIPPLING DEBT, AND YOU WERE TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO REPAY THE IMF DEBT AND OTHERS, AND YOU WANTED TO IMPOSE TAXES.
TAXES WHICH ARE A VERY FEW AND SCARCE ACTUALLY IN KENYA.
AND IT BACKFIRED.
PEOPLE CAME OUT ON TO THE STREETS.
YOU, YOU KNOW, TRIED TO RESTORE THERE WERE MANY PEOPLE IN THOSE PROTESTS WHO WERE KILLED.
AND THEN YOU HAD TO WALK IT ALL BACK.
SO FIRSTLY, DID YOU DO THE WRONG THING BY SENDING THE TROOPS OUT AGAINST PEOPLE WHO WERE PROTESTING THAT THEY COULDN'T AFFORD THESE TAXES?
>> FOR YOUR INFORMATION, KENYA IS A ROBUSTLY DEMOCRATIC COUNTRY.
AND PROTESTS ARE A PART OF OUR DEMOCRACY.
THE FREEDOM OF PEOPLE TO ASSOCIATE AND TO CHOOSE WHAT TO DO.
AND THAT IS PERFECTLY IN ORDER.
AND RESTORING LAW AND ORDER IS ALSO THE RESPONSIBILITY OF LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES.
WHAT WAS IN NAIROBI, APART FROM THE PROTESTS, WERE CRIMINAL GANGS THAT BURNED DOWN PARLIAMENT, BURNED DOWN THE CHIEF JUSTICE OFFICE, BURNED DOWN PEOPLE'S PROPERTY.
THOSE, LIKE HAPPENS EVERYWHERE IN THE WORLD, HAD TO BE MANAGED BY OUR SECURITY AGENCIES.
AND IN THE EXCESSES THAT MAY HAVE OCCURRED, THERE IS AN INDEPENDENT POLICING AUTHORITY THAT INVESTIGATES AND TAKES THOSE WHO MAY HAVE OVERSTEPPED THEIR MANDATE INTO ACCOUNT.
SO WHAT HAPPENED IN KENYA IS PERFECTLY IN ORDER.
WE'RE TRYING TO MANAGE THE SITUATION.
AS YOU HAVE SAID YOURSELF, WE HAVE SERIOUS DEBT ISSUES.
WE HAVE A WORLD THAT HAS SERIOUS CLIMATE CONDITIONS.
WE SWUNG FROM A FLOOD INTO A DROUGHT, AND WE HAVE SERIOUS ISSUES, AND WE'RE TRYING TO MANAGE AND MOBILIZE DOMESTIC RESOURCES, WORKING WITH DIFFERENT ACTORS.
IF IT DOESN'T WORK, WE TRY IT A DIFFERENT WAY.
KENYA IS NOW STABLE.
WE ARE MOVING INTO THE FUTURE IN A PREDICTABLE, ORDERLY MANNER BECAUSE WE ARE A DEMOCRACY.
>> MR. PRESIDENT, HOW WILL YOU DO THAT?
BECAUSE CLEARLY YOU WERE ADVISED I ASSUME BY YOUR OWN ECONOMISTS AND INTERNATIONAL ECONOMISTS THAT YOU NEEDED TO START RAISING FUNDS.
YOU NEEDED TO GET SOME TAXES OR HOWEVER YOU RAISE YOUR FUNDS IN ORDER TO PAY DOWN THE DEBT AND TO I GUESS PAY FOR DEVELOPMENT.
WHAT IS YOUR NEXT STEP ON THIS ISSUE?
HOW WILL YOU DO WHAT YOU NEED TO DO WITHOUT, YOU KNOW, UPSETTING THE PEOPLE WHO CAN'T AFFORD IT AND TRYING TO SATISFY YOUR OWN PEOPLE?
>> IT IS ALWAYS A BALANCE.
MOST OF THE SITUATION THAT YOU SAW, PART OF IT WAS OCCASIONED BY MISINFORMATION, FAKE NEWS, AND MANY OTHER ASPECTS OF THE PROTEST.
MORE EXPLANATION IS GOING INTO OUR STRATEGY GOING INTO THE FUTURE.
WE ARE WORKING WITH THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY TO FIND CONCESSIONAL FUNDING, LONG-TERM TO MANAGE OUR SITUATION, TO MANAGE THE DEBT SITUATION.
AS I TALK TO YOU, INFLATION IS DOWN FROM 9 TO 4.3%.
WE CAN DO MORE GOING FORWARD WITHOUT PUSHING TOO HARD ON WHAT THE PEOPLE CAN ACCOMMODATE.
>> AND ON MY LAST QUESTION ABOUT WOMEN WHO ARE IN FOCUS ALL OVER THE WORLD, INCLUDING IN YOUR COUNTRY, AND LET ME JUST GET THIS STRAIGHT, BECAUSE AN OLYMPIC RUNNER WAS MURDERED IN KENYA BY HER FORMER PARTNER.
YOU HAVE ONE OF THE HIGHEST RATES OF VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN IN AFRICA.
LOTS AND LOTS OF CASES.
WHY DO YOU THINK THIS IS STILL GOING ON IN KENYA?
WHY ARE WOMEN SO UNSAFE?
AND WHAT IS THE GOVERNMENT DOING ABOUT IT?
>> WE HAVE GONE OUT OF OUR WAY TO PROTECT WOMEN IN KENYA.
WOMEN HAVE SPACE, WOMEN HAVE SCOPE, WOMEN HAVE THE LATITUDE TO BE ABLE TO DISCHARGE WHAT THEY DO, TO BE ABLE TO GO ABOUT THEIR BUSINESS.
AND ISOLATED CASES LIKE THE ONE OF THE MURDERED INTERNATIONAL ATHLETE MUST NOT COLOR WHAT THE PLACE OF WOMEN IN KENYA.
WOMEN IN KENYA ARE ROBUSTLY PARTICIPATING IN THE GOVERNANCE AND OUR COUNTRY.
WE HAVE WOMEN GOVERNORS.
WE HAVE WOMEN MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT.
WE HAVE WOMEN POLITICIANS.
WE HAVE WOMEN BUSINESS PEOPLE.
AND THEY'RE DOING A GREAT JOB.
AND IT IS MY INTENTION, EVEN AS WE LOOK REVIEWING THE CONSTITUTION TO GET MORE WOMEN TO PARTICIPATE IN LEADERSHIP AND GOVERNANCE.
>> ALL RIGHT.
MR. PRESIDENT, WILLIAM RUTO, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US FROM THE UNITED NATIONS.
>>> AND WE RETURN NOW TO THE MIDDLE EASTERN POWDER KEG, WHICH THE U.S. AND OTHERS ARE DESPERATELY TRYING TO STOP FROM BECOMING A REGIONAL WAR.
A KEY POWER PLAYER IN ALL OF THIS IS IRAN, THE MAJOR BACKER OF BOTH HEZBOLLAH AND HAMAS AND THE COUNTRY THAT ISRAEL CONSIDERS AN ARCH FOE IN THE REGION.
BUT THIS WEEK IN NEW YORK, IRAN'S PRESIDENT SOUGHT TO PRESENT A MORE MODERATE FACE TO THE WORLD AND SUGGESTED A RESUMPTION OF NUCLEAR TALKS IN AN EFFORT TO GET SANCTIONS RELIEVED.
IRAN'S NEW VICE PRESIDENT FOR STRATEGIC AFFAIR, JAVAD ZARIF IS A FAMILIAR FACE FROM HIS TIME NEGOTIATING THE 2015 NUCLEAR DEAL WITH THE UNITED STATES.
HE SAT DOWN WITH ME HERE IN NEW YORK FOR A WIDE-RANGING INTERVIEW ON LEBANON, GAZA, THAT NEW NUCLEAR DEAL, AND WOMEN'S RIGHTS AT HOME.
>> IRAN HAS EXERCISED RESTRAINT WHEN ISRAEL CONDUCTED MILITARY OPERATIONS AGAINST IRAN, CONDUCTED TERRORIST OPERATION KILLING THE LEADER OF HAMAS WHO WAS ATTENDING THE INAUGURATION OF OUR PRESIDENT, OF ALL THINGS.
AND WE EXERCISED RESTRAINT.
WE BELIEVE THAT HEZBOLLAH IS CAPABLE OF DEFENDING ITSELF.
IT HAS BEEN EXERCISING RESTRAINT IN NOT DOING SO.
IT IS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY TO COME IN BEFORE HEZBOLLAH HAS TO TAKE ITS DEFENSE INTO ITS OWN HANDS AND MAYBE THE SITUATION WILL GET OUT OF HAND AT THAT TIME.
>> THE ISRAELIS HAVE SAID THAT THIS OFFENSIVE IS TO SEPARATE HEZBOLLAH'S SUPPORT FOR HAMAS.
IRAN HAS INFLUENCE WITH HAMAS AS WELL.
ARE YOU TRYING TO GET HAMAS TO AGREE TO A CEASEFIRE?
>> WELL, I THINK HAMAS HAS AGREED TO A CEASEFIRE.
IT'S BEEN NETANYAHU AND THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT WHO HAVE REFUSED ALL ALONG, EVEN REFUSED THE CALLS BY THE UNITED STATES TO ENGAGE IN CEASEFIRE, WHO HAS BEEN VETOING RESOLUTIONS IN THE SECURITY COUNCIL, CALLING FOR CEASEFIRE, AS HAS BEEN THE SUPPORTERS OF HAMAS OR THE UNITED STATES SUPPORTING ISRAEL.
SO EVEN THE CLAIM THAT SOMEBODY NEEDS TO PUSH HAMAS TO ACCEPT CEASEFIRE IS RIDICULOUS BECAUSE EVERYBODY KNOWS THAT NETANYAHU DEPENDS ON THIS WAR IN ORDER TO CONTINUE TO SURVIVE.
AND ISRAEL HAS CONDUCTED THIS WAR WITH THE HOPE THAT THE ILLUSION OF WINNING THIS WAR WHICH IS IMPOSSIBLE.
>> ON OCTOBER 7th LAST YEAR, HAMAS CREATED ATROCITIES BY INVADING ISRAEL PROPER AND KILLING CIVILIANS.
AND I REMEMBER AFTER THE 2006 HEZBOLLAH-ISRAEL WAR, HASSAN NASRALLAH SAID IF HE KNEW THE RESULT OF WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED AFTER HE ESSENTIALLY TOOK ACTIONS THAT CREATED THAT WAR, HE NEVER WOULD HAVE DONE IT.
I MEAN, LEBANON WAS DEVASTATED.
IT WAS TERRIBLE.
DO YOU THINK THAT WAS -- DO YOU SUPPORT WHAT HAMAS DID AGAINST CIVILIANS IN ISRAEL, AGAINST CHILDREN, WOMEN?
>> NOBODY SUPPORTS ACTIONS AGAINST CIVILIANS.
AND HAMAS CERTAINLY HAS BEEN ON THE RECORD SAYING IT DOES NOT SUPPORT SUCH ACTIONS.
DID NOT START ON OCTOBER 7th.
ISRAELI ATROCITIES IN GAZA BASICALLY PUTTING A HUGE NUMBER OF PEOPLE IN THE MOST POPULATED PLACE ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH IN AN OPEN PRISON FOR SO LONG, DEPRIVING THEM OF ANY -- OF ACCESS TO ANYTHING, BASICALLY, TO BASIC NECESSITIES, HAS BEEN AN ONGOING PROCESS.
OCCUPATION OF PALESTINE HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR 70 YEARS.
A SYSTEM OF APARTHEID IN PALESTINE HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR MANY DECADES.
SO HISTORY DID NOT START ON OCTOBER 7th.
AND IT'S NOT FOR US TO DECIDE WHETHER THE PRICE OF PALESTINIANS ARE PAYING IS WORTH FIGHT.
IT'S FOR PALESTINIANS TO DECIDE.
AND IF YOU LOOK AT THE POLLS IN PALESTINE, HAMAS' POPULARITY HAS INCREASED RATHER THAN DECREASED.
>> IT'S GOING DOWN A BIT.
AND WE'RE HEARING A LOT OF PEOPLE IN GAZA WHO ARE REALLY FED UP AND WHO BLAME THEM TOO FOR BRINGING THIS TERROR ON THEIR HEADS, THIS HELL.
>> YOU SEE, THERE IS A VARIETY OF OPINION EVERYWHERE, BUT THE POLLS INDICATE THAT THE GENERAL POPULARITY BOTH IN THE RANK AND IN GAZA HAVE INCREASED.
SO THESE ARE THE REALITIES ON THE GROUND.
THE PALESTINIANS HAVE TO DECIDE WHETHER IT WAS WORTH IT OR NOT.
BUT IT'S FOR THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY TO END THIS, TO END THIS VICIOUS CIRCLE WHICH WILL NEVER HAVE A VICTOR.
ISRAEL WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO WIN THIS WAR, PERIOD.
AND NETANYAHU HAS TO RECOGNIZE THIS AND UNDERSTAND THIS.
>> SO WHAT THEY SAY IS THAT WE HAVE NO OPTION BECAUSE IRAN IS THE BIG DEVIL IN THE REGION.
IN OTHER WORDS, SUPPORTING ALL THESE IRAN-BACKED WHETHER IT'S HEZBOLLAH, WHETHER IT'S THE HOUTHI, WHATEVER IT IS, HAMAS, ALL THOSE THINGS, AND THAT EVEN THE END OF OCCUPATION WOULD NOT STOP YOUR DESIRE TO QUOTE, UNQUOTE WIPE ISRAEL OFF THE FACE OF THE MAP.
IS THAT STILL IRAN'S AIM?
>> IF THERE IS AN END TO OCCUPATION, IF THE PALESTINIANS ARE SATISFIED WITH THEIR SITUATION, NO AMOUNT OF PERSUASION BY ANYBODY CAN CHANGE THE SITUATION AND CAN PUSH THEM INTO FIGHTING.
THEY'RE FIGHTING FOR THEIR LIVES.
THEY'RE FIGHTING FOR THEIR FREEDOM.
GIVE THEM FREEDOM.
GIVE THEM BACK THEIR LAND.
NOW IRAN DOES NOT HAVE AN EXTERMINATION POLICY.
IRAN'S SUGGESTION FOR THE REGION IS TO HAVE A REFERENDUM IN WHICH THE PALESTINIANS, THE JEWS, THE CHRISTIANS, WHOEVER LIVES THERE, THE MUSLIMS, AND WHOEVER HAS BEEN UPROOTED FROM THE LAND TO VOTE.
ALLOW THEM TO DETERMINE THEIR DESTINY.
NOW SOME PEOPLE WILL SAY THAT WOULD MEAN PUSHING THE JEWS INTO THE SEA.
DID THAT HAPPEN IN SOUTH AFRICA?
WE'RE SAYING EXACTLY THE SAME THING.
YOU AND I HAVE BEEN AROUND FOR LONG ENOUGH TO KNOW THAT IN THE 1970s, 1980s, THEY WERE SAYING THAT IF THERE IS A NONRACIST, NONAPARTHEID REGIME IN SOUTH AFRICA, ALL THE WHITES WOULD BE THROWN INTO THE SEA AND THE COMMUNISTS WILL COME IN AND TAKE OVER THE COUNTRY.
IS THAT WHAT HAPPENED IN SOUTH AFRICA?
IT DIDN'T.
SO THE FEARMONGERING POLICIES OF THE ZIONISTS ARE SIMPLY THERE TO CONTINUE THIS ACT OF GENOCIDE AND OCCUPATION AND OPPRESSION.
>> IN THE MEANTIME, SINCE THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION BASICALLY PULLED THE UNITED STATES OUT OF THE IRAN NUCLEAR DEAL THAT YOU AND YOUR GOVERNMENT NEGOTIATED WITH THEN THE OBAMA GOVERNMENT, YOU HAVE GONE AHEAD IN LEAPS AND BOUNDS, AND YOU COULD BE THIS CLOSE TO THE ABILITY FOR NUCLEAR BREAKOUT.
YOUR FOREIGN MINISTER WHO WAS YOUR DEPUTY BACK THEN HAS SAID THIS WEEK THAT HE'S WILLING TO -- AND IRAN IS WILLING TO ENTER TALKS AGAIN IN TERMS OF A NUCLEAR AGREEMENT IF OTHER PARTIES, I GUESS THE UNITED STATES IS WILLING.
CAN YOU ELABORATE ON THAT?
>> WELL, YOU SEE, I THINK YOU ANSWERED YOUR OWN QUESTION.
TRUMP WITHDREW FROM THE DEAL.
AT THAT TIME -- >> BUT BIDEN TRIED AGAIN.
>> NO, BIDEN CONTINUED TRUMP'S POLICY.
TO BE ABSOLUTELY HONEST WITH YOU, I DON'T LIKE TO SAY IT, BUT THE POLICY OF THE UNITED STATES HAS NOT CHANGED SINCE PRESIDENT BIDEN TOOK OFFICE.
BUT THE POINT IS THE UNITED STATES SAFER BECAUSE OF TRUMP'S WITHDRAWAL?
IRAN WAS ABIDING BY THE DEAL, BASED ON AMERICAN INTELLIGENCE, I DON'T BUY THAT, BUT BASED ON AMERICAN INTELLIGENCE, IRAN WAS A YEAR AWAY FROM BREAKOUT.
NOW AMERICAN INTELLIGENCE SAYS IRAN IS DAYS AWAY FROM BREAKOUT.
>> ARE YOU?
>> WHO CAUSED THIS?
WE DON'T WANT THE BREAK OUT.
WE DO NOT WANT TO BREAK OUT BECAUSE WE DO NOT BELIEVE THAT NUCLEAR WEAPONS ARE IN OUR SECURITY -- IN OUR INTERESTS, AND WILL AUGMENT OUR SECURITY.
BUT THE QUESTION IS IF THE UNITED STATES FEELS MORE THREATENED TODAY, WHAT IS THE CAUSE?
IS IT US OR IS IT TRUMP'S WITHDRAWAL?
AND WHY DID TRUMP WITHDRAWAL?
BECAUSE OF ISRAELI PRESSURE.
HE HAS SAID IT HIMSELF.
NETANYAHU HAS SAID IT IN HIS BOOK THAT HIS NUMBER ONE PRIORITY WAS TO PUSH THE UNITED STATES OUT OF THE DEAL.
IS THE WORLD SAFER TODAY THAN IT WAS IN 2015?
THAT IS THE QUESTION THAT NEEDS TO BE ANSWERED.
NOW, HOW CAN WE GO BACK TO STATUS QUO ANTE?
BY THE UNITED STATES RETURNING TO ITS OBLIGATIONS UNDER THE JCPOA, ACCEPTING THAT IT HAD MADE A MISTAKE.
AND I THINK WHAT OUR FOREIGN MINISTER HAS SAID IS SOMETHING THAT IS ACHIEVABLE, PROVIDED THAT WE UNDERSTAND THAT THE UNITED STATES, THAT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION TOOK A VERY DANGEROUS STEP, CONVINCED BY ISRAEL.
>> AND IT'S POSSIBLE THAT THE NEXT PRESIDENT COULD BE DONALD TRUMP.
SO THEN ALL BETS ARE OFF AGAIN.
I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT THE INTERVENING YEARS YOU WERE NOT IN OFFICE, BUT THE IRANIAN REGIME HAS SUPPORTED THE RUSSIAN REGIME IN TERMS OF OCCUPATION, INVASION, AND THE SLAUGHTER OF CIVILIANS INSIDE UKRAINE.
YOU HAVE PROVIDED DRONES AND DRONE TECHNOLOGY.
YOU'VE PROVIDED SHORT-RANGE BALLISTIC MISSILES.
AND THESE ARE KILLING ORDINARY CIVILIANS INSIDE UKRAINE AND DAMAGING THEIR INFRASTRUCTURE.
WHY?
WHY DO YOU WANT TO DO THAT?
>> WELL, WE CERTAINLY DO NOT SUPPORT NEITHER OUR GOVERNMENT NOR THE PREVIOUS GOVERNMENT IN IRAN SUPPORT THE INVASION OF OTHER PEOPLE'S TERRITORY OR THE KILLING OF INNOCENT PEOPLE.
WHAT WE HAVE SAID FROM THE VERY BEGINNING IS THERE SHOULD BE ONE SOLUTION TO THE SITUATION IN UKRAINE, AND THAT IS THROUGH NEGOTIATIONS BETWEEN RUSSIA AND UKRAINE, AND ALSO OTHERS WHO HAVE RENEGED ON THE PROMISE NOT TO EXPAND NATO.
BECAUSE I THINK HERE THE PROMISES HAVE BEEN MADE AND THE BROKEN PROMISES WHICH LED TO INSTABILITY IN THE REGION AND A SENSE OF INSECURITY.
WE DO NOT CONDONE THE RESPONSE TO THOSE PROVOCATIONS.
WE DO NOT BELIEVE THAT WAR IS AN ANSWER TO ANYTHING.
>> SO WHY ARE YOU SUPPLYING THEM WITH WEAPONS THEY DESPERATELY NEED?
>> BECAUSE IN ANY WAR, EVERYBODY WILL LOSE.
NOW, ALL ROADS HAVE BEEN CLOSED TO IRAN IN VIOLATION OF INTERNATIONAL LAW, AND WE NEED TO ENGAGE IN BUSINESS.
WE NEED TO BE ABLE TO END CURRENCY.
>> IS THAT WHY YOU'RE DOING IT?
>> THE RUSSIANS ENGAGE WITH IRAN IN TRADE.
THE UNITED STATES HAS CLOSED ALL POSSIBILITIES OF TRADE WITH IRAN.
WE NEVER FORGET THOSE WHO HELP US IN TIMES OF DIFFICULTY.
NOW EUROPEANS HAVE TO ANSWER WHY DID THEY FOLLOW THE UNITED STATES?
WHY DID THEY CLOSE ALL THEIR BUSINESSES IN IRAN?
HAD IRAN VIOLATED ANY DEALS?
WHY DID THEY DO THAT?
WHY SHOULD WE BE CONCERNED WITH THE CONCERNS OF EUROPE WHEN THEY'RE NOT CONCERNED WITH THEIR OWN OBLIGATIONS UNDER INTERNATIONAL LAW?
SO EVERYBODY HAS TO COME DOWN FROM THEIR HIGH HEELS AND WORK WITH US AND SEE WHERE WE ARE.
WE'VE SAID VERY CLEARLY THAT WE ARE WILLING TO NEGOTIATE.
WE'RE WILLING TO TALK HOW TO END THIS SITUATION, HOW TO END THE CRISES, VARIOUS CRISES THAT HAVE BEEN CREATED BECAUSE OF THE UNITED STATES' WITHDRAWAL FROM THE JCPOA.
LET'S GO BACK FROM THE START, SEE HOW IT STARTED, AND SEE HOW IT CAN BE.
>> THE NEW PRESIDENT MASOUD PEZESHKIAN PORTRAYED HIMSELF AS A REFORMER, AND YOU CALL YOURSELF IN THE REFORMIST CAMP, AND YOU SUPPORTED HIM.
WHAT DO YOU THINK WILL BE DIFFERENT UNDER THIS NEW PRESIDENT?
AND LET'S JUST TAKE DOMESTIC IRANIAN AFFAIRS.
UNDER PRESIDENT RAISI, THERE WAS A HUGE UPTICK IN REPRESSION AGAINST ORDINARY IRANIAN CIVILIANS AND WOMEN AND THE HIJABS AND THE ARRESTS AND WE SAW WHAT HAPPENED A COUP OF YEARS TO MASSA AMINAH.
YOUR PRESIDENT SAID HE WILL NOT ALLOW THE MORALITY POLICE TO RUN ROUGHSHOD OVER WOMEN AND THEIR RIGHTS.
IS THAT THE POLICY OF THIS NEW GOVERNMENT?
>> WELL, THE POLICY OF THIS NEW GOVERNMENT IS THAT WOMEN HAVE TO BE TREATED WITH RESPECT.
THE PRESIDENT, THE REST OF US HAVE BEEN ON THE RECORD CRITICIZING WHAT HAPPENED A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO.
AND WE CONTINUE TO BELIEVE THAT THAT'S -- THAT ARE MUCH BETTER WAYS OF TREATING A POPULATION.
A POPULATION NEEDS TO BE TREATED WITH RESPECT.
POPULATION NEED TO BE TREATED WITH DIGNITY, AND THIS IS HOW WE PLAN TO GO AHEAD.
THIS WAS THE CAMPAIGN PROMISE THAT PRESIDENT PEZESHKIAN MADE, I MADE WHEN I CAMPAIGNED FOR HIM IN THE PAST -- I MEAN, A COUPLE OF MONTHS AGO.
AND I THINK WE'VE TAKEN GOOD STEPS.
I MEAN STEPS IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION.
WE'RE NOT THERE YET.
BUT A LONG WAY TO GO.
BUT WE NOW HAVE FOUR WOMEN IN THE CABINET, AND I'M VERY PROUD OF THAT.
WE HAVE A SUNNI VICE PRESIDENT IN THE CABINET FOR THE FIRST TIME.
THESE ARE HAPPENING FOR THE FIRST TIME IN IRANIAN HISTORY, NOT JUST AFTER THE REVOLUTION.
FOUR WOMEN IN THE CABINET.
WE NEVER HAD FOUR WOMEN IN THE CABINET EVEN BEFORE THE REVOLUTION, AT LEAST AS LONG AS I CAN REMEMBER.
SO THESE ARE IMPORTANT DEVELOPMENTS, AND I THINK WE NEED TO BUILD ON THEM.
WE'RE NOT THERE YET.
>> CAN THEY -- CAN THE WOMEN AT LEAST BE REASSURED THAT THE MORALITY POLICE WILL BE TAKEN OFF THE STREETS AND OFF THEIR BACKS?
>> WELL, THE PRESIDENT HAS SAID THAT HE DOESN'T AGREE WITH THIS, AND HE WILL DO WHATEVER HE CAN IN ORDER TO CHANGE THE SITUATION.
AND I THINK HE'S ON THE RIGHT TRACK.
HE'S A VERY HONEST MAN.
HE IS A VERY SINCERE MAN, AND WHEN HE MAKES PROMISE, HE TRIES TO IMPLEMENT THEM.
AND WE SHOULD WAIT AND SEE.
I THINK WE SHOULD GIVE HIM SOME TIME.
>> LASTLY, IRAN AND OTHER COUNTRIES HAVE MADE A BIT OF A BUSINESS OF TAKING HOSTAGES.
YOU HAVE HAD OVER THE YEARS MANY IRANIAN AMERICAN DUAL NATIONALS IN PRISON, AND WE INTERVIEWED THE LONGEST HELD IRANIAN HOSTAGE IN IRAN, AND WE INTERVIEWED HIM WHEN HE WAS STILL IN AVEAN, AND NOW THAT HE HAS COME OUT.
AND HE SAID THAT, A, HE WAS SUBJECTED TO UNUTTERABLE INDIGNITIES.
I GUESS I WANT TO START BY ASKING YOU IS THIS AN ACCEPTABLE WAY TO TREAT ORDINARY PEOPLE, IRANIANS, YOUR PEOPLE?
>> OF COURSE NOT.
AND I THINK WHAT HE HAS SAID SHOULD BE A SUBJECT OF INVESTIGATION IN IRAN AND I THINK CHRISTIANE WOULD AGREE WITH ME THERE SHOULD BE AN INVESTIGATION WHAT HE SAID.
THAT IS NOT OUR POLICY OF OUR GOVERNMENT OR THE PREVIOUS GOVERNMENT.
>> BUT IT IS, SO MANY YEARS TO BARTER.
>> NO, NO.
YOU SEE, THERE ARE IRANIANS WHO ARE PRISON IN THE UNITED STATES, AND THERE ARE BOTH AMERICANS AND IRANIAN AMERICANS WHO ARE IN PRISON IN IRAN.
WHEN I WAS FOREIGN MINISTER, I DID MY BEST IN ORDER TO EXPEDITE THEIR EXCHANGE.
IN SOME CASES I WAS SUCCESSFUL.
IN SOME CASES UNFORTUNATELY I WASN'T.
AND I REGRET THAT.
I HAD HOPED THAT WE COULD MAKE MORE PROGRESS.
AND IT WASN'T JUST BECAUSE OF IRAN.
IT WAS BECAUSE OF THE UNITED STATES REFUSING TO GO ALONG WITH THE EXCHANGE.
BUT UNFORTUNATELY, AGAIN, HIS ARREST WAS AFTER WE HAD MADE THAT DEAL, AND IT WAS IMPOSSIBLE.
IT WOULD HAVE BROKEN ALL THE DEAL, ALL THE DEAL WOULD HAVE UNFOILED HAD WE TRIED -- >> DID YOU THINK YOU COULD GET HIM OUT IN A FEW WEEKS AS APPARENTLY YOU TOLD SECRETARY KERRY?
>> YEAH, THAT IS WHAT I WAS TOLD.
BUT UNFORTUNATELY, IT DIDN'T GO THROUGH.
>> DO YOU THINK THAT THIS POLICY OF TAKING DUAL NATIONALS WILL END?
>> WELL, I HOPE THAT NOBODY WILL END UP IN PRISON EITHER IN THE UNITED STATES NOR IN IRAN.
ON CHARGES THAT CAN BE TREATED IN OTHER WAYS.
SO I CERTAINLY HOPE.
IRAN BELONGS TO ALL IRANIANS.
AND IRANIANS RESIDING IN THE UNITED STATES AND I HOPE, AND I'M SURE DR. PEZESHKIAN DOES AS WELL, TO CREATE CONDITIONS THAT ALL IRANIANS, EXCEPT FOR THOSE WHO COMMITTED CRIMES, CAN COME FREELY TO IRAN AND RETURN SAFELY.
>> YOU AT MITT THAT SIAMAK DID NOT COMMIT A CRIME?
>> WELL, I'M NOT IN A POSITION TO JUDGE THAT, BUT I KNOW SIAMAK, AND I THINK HE DIDN'T.
BUT THAT'S UP TO THE JUDGE TO DECIDE.
AND THE JUDGE, THE JUDGES DECIDED OTHERWISE.
I REGRET THAT, BUT THAT'S MY PERSONAL REGRET BECAUSE I KNOW HIM.
>> DR. JAVAD ZARIF, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR BEING WITH US.
>> THANK YOU.
>>> AND NOW CULTURE WARS AND HYPER PARTISANSHIP ARE OVERWHELMING VOTERS AND SOWING DISTRUST.
OUR NEXT GUEST BELIEVES THE ANTIDOTE TO THIS IS FOUND IN BOTH FAITH AND SCIENCE.
TO EXPLAIN HOW, DR. FRANCIS COLLINS, FORMER DIRECTOR OF THE NATIONAL INSTITUTES OF HEALTH SPOKE WITH WALTER ISAACSON, DISCUSSING HIS LATEST BOOK, "THE ROAD TO WISDOM."
>> THANK YOU, AND DR. FRANCIS COLLINS, WELCOME BACK TO THE SHOW.
>> GREAT TO BE WITH YOU, WALTER.
>> YOU KNOW, YOU'VE BEEN WORRIED FOR QUITE SOME TIME NOW ABOUT THE GROWING HATRED, DIVISION IN OUR SOCIETY AND HOW WE'VE SEEN PRESIDENTIAL ASSASSINATION ATTEMPTS, AND YOU FINALLY DECIDED TO WRITE A BOOK ABOUT IT CALLED "THE ROAD TO WISDOM."
AS A DOCTOR, DIAGNOSIS IT FOR ME.
TELL ME HOW WE GOT HERE.
>> IT'S A PRETTY SERIOUS DIAGNOSIS, THAT'S FOR SURE.
YEAH, WE ARE A VERY POLARIZED SOCIETY, AND THERE IS A LOT OF VITRIOL AND ANIMOSITY.
AND THAT HAS LED US IN THIS CURRENT CIRCUMSTANCE TO A PLACE WHERE A WHOLE LOT OF THINGS WE USED TO CONSIDER ABSOLUTELY ROCK SOLID FOR OUR SOCIETY ARE NOW RATHER FRAYED.
ONE OF THEM IS THERE SUCH A THING AS TRUTH NOW DAYS?
MY MODEL SAYS THIS IS WHAT'S TRUE.
MAYBE YOURS SAYS THAT'S WHAT TRUE.
HEY, IF A FACT IS A FACT, IT'S TRUE FOR EVERYBODY, AND IT DOESN'T CARE HOW YOU FEEL.
WE'VE LOST TRUST IN SCIENCE ALONG THE WAY, ALMOST AS IF SOME PEOPLE HAVE TO BE THE PRO SCIENCE, AND THEN THE OTHER PEOPLE HAVE TO BE THE ANTI-SCIENCE.
SCIENCE IS ABOUT OBJECTIVE FACTS.
IT DOESN'T CARE ABOUT HOW YOU FEEL ABOUT THE ANSWER, IT JUST IS WHAT IT IS.
CLIMATE CHANGE IS REAL, BY THE WAY.
COVID VACCINES WORKED AND SAVED ABOUT 3 MILLION LIVES.
THOSE ARE FACTS.
BUT THOSE KINDS OF THINGS ARE HARDER NOW FOR PEOPLE TO AGREE ON.
I'M ALSO A PERSON OF FAITH.
I THINK FAITH AS A SOURCE OF A DIFFERENT KIND OF TRUTH, A TRANSCENDENTAL TRUTH, A TRUTH ABOUT WHO WE ARE AND WHAT WE'RE CALLED TO DO AND HOW WE'RE SUPPOSED TO LOVE OUR NEIGHBORS, THAT'S GOTTEN FRAYED AS WELL.
AND I'M SORRY TO SAY OFTENTIMES BECAUSE POLITICS HAS JUMPED IN AND OVERTAKEN THE MESSAGES OF FAITH THAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN THE DOMINANT WITH ONES.
ALL OF THIS, WALTER, KIND OF LEADS US TO THIS AREA WHERE WE DON'T KNOW WHO TO TRUST ANYMORE.
>> YOU SAW THIS UPCLOSE WHEN YOU WERE HEADING THE NATIONAL INSTITUTES OF HEALTH.
WE HAD THE WORST PANDEMIC IN A CENTURY HIT US.
AND YOU SAID THAT IT SHOWED SOMETHING WAS DEEPLY WRONG IN AMERICAN CULTURE.
WHAT WAS THAT?
>> I THINK THE VACCINES ARE THE MOST GLARING EXAMPLE.
PUTTING TOGETHER IN THE SPACE OF JUST 11 MONTHS A REMARKABLE PARTNERSHIP BETWEEN PRIVATE INDUSTRY, ACADEMIA, GOVERNMENT, PHILANTHROPY, EVERYBODY PITCHING IN WHO HAD SOMETHING TO CONTRIBUTE, AND IN THE SPACE OF 11 MONTH, COMING UP WITH VACCINES THAT WERE NOT JUST KIND OF OKAY, THEY WERE SPECTACULAR.
95% EFFICACY WITH VERY FEW INDICATIONS OF SIDE EFFECT PROBLEMS, STUDYING 30,000 PEOPLE THAT IS SO MUCH BETTER THAN MOST PEOPLE DARED TO HOPE.
AND THAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN A MOMENT, BEN, FOR US TO TURN THE CORNER FROM THIS TERRIBLE PANDEMIC.
AND OF COURSE IT WAS FOR MILLIONS OF PEOPLE WHOSE LIVES WERE SAVED BY THE VACCINE ACROSS THE WORLD.
I MIGHT HAVE BEEN ONE OF THEM.
I DON'T KNOW.
BUT FOR 50 MILLION AMERICANS, THERE WAS A SUSPICION THAT THIS WASN'T REALLY WHAT IT WAS CLAIMED TO BE, AND THEY SAID NO THANK YOU.
AND THIS IS WHAT BROKE MY HEART, WALTER.
HERE WE HAVE WHAT I THINK HISTORY WILL CONSIDER ONE OF THE MOST SIGNIFICANT SCIENTIFIC ACHIEVEMENTS ALL TIME, AND YET PEOPLE INFLUENCED BY OTHER KINDS OF INFORMATION AND DISINFORMATION TURNED AWAY FROM THAT.
AND THE ESTIMATES ARE BY KAISER FAMILY FOUNDATION, THE 234,000 PEOPLE DIED UNNECESSARILY, THE CULTURE WARS LEADING TO ACTUAL DEATHS OF INDIVIDUALS.
GOOD, HONORABLE PEOPLE WHO WERE IN A CIRCUMSTANCE OF NOT BEING ABLE TO FIGURE OUT WHO TO BELIEVE.
THAT'S A PRETTY SERIOUS INDICTMENT OF THE PROBLEMS WE HAVE NOW GOTTEN INTO WITH TRUTH AND SCIENCE AND FAITH AND TRUST ALL GETTING OUT OF WHACK.
WE'VE LOST THOSE ANCHORS.
WE NEED TO GET THEM BACK.
>> NOT ONLY DID SOME PEOPLE BECOME SKEPTICAL OF THE VACCINE, IT ALMOST REVIVED SOMEWHAT VACCINE SKEPTICISM IN GENERAL.
WELL SEE ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR., PEOPLE SAYING YOU SHOULDN'T DO THE MMR VACCINES, TAKING AN OLD DISCREDITED PAPER, SAYING MAYBE THEY CAUSE AUTISM.
WHAT MISTAKES DO YOU THINK, IF ANY, WERE MADE?
MAYBE VACCINE MANDATES WEREN'T THE WAY TO GO BECAUSE IT CAUSED A COUNTER REACTION?
WHAT WOULD YOU DO DIFFERENTLY?
>> YEAH, WELL, FIRST OF ALL, I DO THINK SCIENCE COMMUNICATION COULD HAVE BEEN DONE MORE EFFECTIVELY THAN IT WAS.
AND I'M POINTING THE FINGER AT MYSELF HERE BECAUSE I WAS ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE BEING CALLED ON REGULARLY TO TRY TO EXPLAIN WHAT WE KNEW ABOUT COVID AND WHAT WE WERE TRYING TO ACCOMPLISH, AND WHAT KINDS OF ACTS PEOPLE WOULD NEED TO TAKE TO TRY TO PROTECT THEMSELVES AND THEIR NEIGHBORS.
I WISH THAT WE HAD -- EVERY TIME WE PUT FORWARD ONE OF THOSE RECOMMENDATION, HAD A LITTLE BIT MORE TIME TO SAY THIS IS A VERY EVOLVING STORY.
WE HAVE INCOMPLETE DATA ABOUT THIS VIRUS.
WHAT WE'RE GOING TO TELL YOU TODAY IS THE BEST WE CAN DO.
AND PLEASE DON'T IMAGINE THAT ANY OF THESE PUBLIC HEALTH PEOPLE HAVE ANY PARTICULAR AX TO GRIND.
WE'RE JUST TRYING TO DO WHAT WE CAN TO SAVE LIVES.
BUT IT MIGHT HAVE TO CHANGE A WEEK FROM NOW OR A MONTH FROM NOW, BECAUSE WE'LL GET NEW DATA AND WE'LL RECOMMENDATIONS WE MADE YESTERDAY ARE NOT THE ONES WE SHOULD MAKE FOR TOMORROW.
WE DIDN'T DO ENOUGH OF THAT.
SO WHEN THINGS CHANGE LIKE DO YOU NOT WEAR A MASK, DO YOU WEAR A MASK, PEOPLE BEGAN TO DOUBT WHETHER THE EXPERTS WERE REALLY EXPERTS AT ALL.
AND WE WERE UNABLE, I THINK, TO GET CONTROL OF THE MESSAGE OF WHAT IS ACTUALLY TRUE HERE.
SO THAT WAS CERTAINLY A LESSON TO LEARN.
DID MANDATES MAKE IT WORSE?
FIRST OF ALL, I THINK MANDATES SPECIFICALLY WERE ENTIRELY JUSTIFIED.
A PAPER JUST CAME OUT IN SCIENTIFIC REPORTS THAT ASSESSED OVER 2020 WHAT WERE THE MEASURES THAT WERE TAKEN DURING THAT TERRIBLE YEAR THAT ACTUALLY REDUCED TRANSMISSION OF THE VIRUS.
AND MANDATES, LOOKING AT ALL 50 STATES, SOME HAD THEM, SOME DID NOT, CLEARLY HAD A BENEFICIAL EFFECT.
BUT PEOPLE DIDN'T LIKE THEM AT ALL.
THEY ADDED TO THE SENSE THAT THE GOVERNMENT IS HEAVY-HANDED.
IT'S TAKING AWAY YOUR LIBERTIES.
IT'S MAKING RANDOM DECISIONS THAT ARE GETTING IN THE WAY OF PEOPLE BEING ABLE TO HAVE THEIR OWN CHOICES.
AND SO I THINK IT PROBABLY DID ADD TO MORE OF THE RESISTANCE AND THE RESENTMENT ABOUT PUBLIC HEALTH JUST AT THE POINT WHERE PUBLIC HEALTH MIGHT HAVE HELPED US SAVE MORE LIVES.
>> LET ME TELL YOU THE BEGINNING OF A JOKE.
AN ELITIST AND A DEPLORABLE WALK INTO A BAR.
YOU ARE THE ELITIST.
A GUY NAMED WILKE WILKENS IS A SELF-DESCRIBED DEPLORABLE, TONGUE-IN-CHEEK.
TELL ME HOW THAT STORY PLAYS OUT.
>> WELL, THAT WAS A SESSION IN FRONT OF 700 PEOPLE IN GETTYSBURG, PENNSYLVANIA.
IT WAS THE ANNUAL MEETING OF THE BRAVER ANGELS ORGANIZATION AND SO IS WILKE.
WILKE IS A GUY WHO RUNS A TRUCKING COMPANY IN MINNESOTA.
AND HE IS SOMEBODY WHO FELT THAT THE PUBLIC HEALTH MAJORS IN COVID WERE ALL WRONG FOR HIS COMMUNITY.
THIS WAS NOT THE MIDDLE OF NEW YORK CITY.
THEY WERE NOT SEEING MUCH IN THE WAY OF CASES, AND YET THEY WERE ALSO TOLD YOU GOT TO CLOSE DOWN YOUR BUSINESS AND YOUR SCHOOLS, AND YOU GOT THE STAY AT HOME.
AND A LOT OF HARM WAS BEING DONE IN HIS VIEW BY THESE OVERLY RESTRICTIVE POLICIES.
SO HE AND I GOT TO KNOW EACH OTHER PRETTY WELL OVER THE LAST TWO AND A HALF YEARS AS PART OF THE BRAVER ANGELS FORMAT WHERE YOU BRING TOGETHER PEOPLE WHO HAVE VERY DIFFERENT VIEWS AND YOU ACTUALLY MAKE SURE THEY'RE LISTENING TO EACH OTHER AND NOT JUST SHOUTING AT EACH OTHER.
AND I BEGAN TO UNDERSTAND A LOT ABOUT WHERE WILKE WAS COMING, FROM AND I THINK HE UNDERSTOOD WHERE I WAS COMING FROM.
SO WE HAD THIS SESSION IN FRONT OF 700 PEOPLE WHERE WE BASICALLY HAD A CIVIL DISAGREEMENT ABOUT OUR PERSPECTIVES ON PUBLIC HEALTH.
AND, YET, AT THE SAME TIME, MADE IT CLEAR THAT DESPITE ALL THAT, WE'RE PRETTY GOOD FRIENDS NOW, AND WE ARE.
MAYBE WE COULD DO MORE OF THAT.
THE IDEA YOU COULD SIT DOWN WITH SOMEBODY WHO IS REALLY IN A DIFFERENT PLACE AND MAYBE SOUNDING RATHER AGGRESSIVE ABOUT IT, AND JUST LISTEN AND TRY TO FIGURE OUT.
PLAN YOUR SNAPPY RESPONSE.
AND THEN GRADUALLY, BIT BY BIT, YOU BEGIN TO HAVE A BETTER GRASP OF WHAT THE ISSUES ARE THAN IN YOUR OWN BUBBLE.
>> AS YOU SAY, THERE IS A PARADOX WHICH YOU MENTION IN YOUR BOOK WHICH IS THAT SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH HAS NEVER SHOWN MORE POTENTIAL FOR BREAKTHROUGH DISCOVERIES IN SAVING LIVES THAN RIGHT NOW, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, PUBLIC TRUST IN SCIENCE HAS BEEN FALLING.
WHAT IS CAUSING THAT?
IS THAT PART OF THIS POLITICAL POLARIZATION THAT CAUSES TRUST IN SCIENCE TO FALL?
>> YEAH, I THINK THAT'S A LOT OF IT.
I THINK THE STATEMENT ABOUT THE ADVANCEMENTS IN SCIENCE BEING BREATHTAKING IS EASILY DEFENDED.
WE ALREADY TALKED ABOUT COVID VACCINES WHICH TURNED OUT TO BE A SOURCE OF DISTRUST WHICH IS REALLY STRANGE BECAUSE IT WAS SUCH A PHENOMENAL ACHIEVEMENT.
BUT NOW WE HAVE VACCINES FOR CANCER.
AND A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE I DON'T KNOW THAN EITHER, EVEN THOUGH THEY'RE STARTING TO LOOK REALLY PROMISING.
WE'RE CURING SICKLE CELL DISEASE WITH GENE THERAPY IN A WAY I NEVER DREAMED WOULD HAPPEN IN MY LIFETIME.
WE HAVE PROMISING WAYS NOW TO ATTACK PROBLEMS LIKE ALZHEIMER'S DISEASE.
AND EVERYBODY WANTS TO SEE THOSE ADVANCES HAPPEN.
BUT THERE IS STILL THIS UNDERCURRENT OF SUSPICION.
ARE THE SCIENTISTS REALLY ALL ATHEISTS?
ARE THEY REALLY ALL ON A TAKING?
ARE THEY JUST TRYING TO PROMOTE THEMSELVES?
CAN YOU TRUST THIS DATA?
ALL THE THINGS WE KNOW ABOUT SCIENCE IN TERMS OF THE PEER REVIEW AND THE THINGS THAT ARE PUBLISHED TURN OUT NOT TO BE RELIABLE, THOSE SEEM TO HAVE SLIPPED AWAY FROM PEOPLE'S MEMORIES AS MUCH.
AND NOW IT'S WELL, THAT'S WHAT THE SCIENTISTS SAFE.
BUT LET ME SEE WHAT SOCIAL MEDIA HAS TO SAY ABOUT THAT.
>> YOU WROTE A BOOK MANY YEARS AGO, "THE LANGUAGE OF GOD" WHICH IS IN SOME WAYS A PRECURSOR TO THIS NEW BOOK, "THE ROAD TO WISDOM."
AND IN BOTH, YOU TALK ABOUT BEING A PERSON OF FAITH.
AND IN SOME WAYS, THE NARRATIVE IS KIND OF INTERESTING.
WHEN I READ IT IN THIS BOOK, USE YOU'RE A YOUNG SCIENTIST IN YOUR 20s, AND YOU'RE DOING SOME EXPERIMENTS, AND SUDDENLY, THEY DON'T WORK.
THEY DON'T PROVE YOUR HYPOTHESIS, AND IT HITS YOU REAL HARD.
AND YOU TALK TO YOUR PASTOR.
TELL ME HOW THAT LED YOU ON A ROAD TO FAITH AND A ROAD TO SCIENCE.
>> SO, YEAH, I DID NOT GROW UP IN A FAITH TRADITION OF ANY SORT.
I WAS AN ATHEIST WHEN I WAS A GRADUATE STUDENT STUDYING PHYSICAL CHEMISTRY.
THE EXAMPLE YOU TALK ABOUT IS THE VERY FIRST REAL SERIOUS SCIENCE I TRIED TO DO AFTER I HAD GOTTEN INTO MEDICINE AND WAS TRYING TO DO THE MOLECULAR BIOLOGY RESEARCH.
AND IT WAS SOMETHING I CARED DEEPLY ABOUT.
IT WAS MY FIRST BIG OPPORTUNITY TO MAKE A DISCOVERY.
AND IT WAS SIX MONTHS OF HARD WORK, AND I WAS MAKING A LOT OF MISTAKES BECAUSE I WASN'T REALLY FAMILIAR WITH A LOT OF THE TECHNIQUES.
BUT ULTIMATELY, THE DAY CAME WHERE THE RESULTS WERE GOING TO BE CLEAR.
AND I HAD THIS IN MY HEAD, THIS IS GOING TO BE A BIG MOMENT.
I'VE DISCOVERED SOMETHING THAT OTHER LABORATORIES ARE GOING TO WANT TO USE.
AND IT WAS A COMPLETE AND UTTER FAILURE.
THERE WAS NO CHANCE OF RESCUING ANYTHING USEFUL OUT OF THIS.
AND I TOLD MY MENTOR THE NEXT DAY, I'M LEAVING THE PROGRAM.
I MUST NOT DESTINED FOR THIS.
AND HE TALKED ME INTO STICKING AROUND.
I DID GO AND TALK TO MY PASTOR.
I'M A PERSON WHO'S TRYING TO PUT FAITH AND SCIENCE TOGETHER, BECAUSE BY THEN, I HAD REACHED THAT POINT OF BECOMING A CHRISTIAN.
BUT IS GOD BASICALLY SENDING ME A MESSAGE HERE?
JUST MOVE ON AND DO SOMETHING ELSE?
AND HE SAID NOW WAIT A MINUTE, LET'S LOOK AT THE FIGURES IN THE BIBLE.
BY THE WAY, MY PASTOR WAS A FORMER NASA ENGINEER.
SO HE KNEW ABOUT ALL THIS.
LOOK AT ALL OF THE HEROES OF FAITH WHO FAILED OVER AND OVER AGAIN, FROM MOSES ON DOWN THROUGH PETER AND PAUL.
DID THEY JUST GIVE UP BECAUSE THEY HAD A BAD EXPERIMENT?
NO.
THEY LEARNED FROM IT.
THEY FIGURED OUT SOMETHING REALLY THAT THEY HADN'T APPRECIATED BEFORE.
THAT'S WHAT YOU NEED TO DO.
OKAY.
I DECIDED TO GIVE IT ANOTHER SHOT.
AND THE NEXT EXPERIMENT I WAS A LOT MORE CAREFUL ABOUT THE DESIGN, TO BE SURE I HAD UNDERSTOOD ALL THE WAYS THAT IT MIGHT GO WRONG, AND THAT ONE TURNED OUT TO HAVE GONE MUCH BETTER.
AND THEN HERE I AM, NOW SOME OF 40 SOME YEARS LATER HAVING HAD AN AMAZING EXPERIENCE AS A SCIENTIST WITH PLENTY OF FAILURES ALONG THE WAY, BUT ALWAYS TRYING TO LEARN FROM EACH ONE OF THOSE.
>> IT WAS YOUR EVANGELICAL CHRISTIAN FAITH COMMUNITY AT TIMES THAT WAS MOST RESISTANT TO THINGS LIKE VACCINES, WHY DO YOU THINK IT CAUGHT ON IN THAT COMMUNITY?
AND WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THEM?
>> WELL, THAT IS MY COMMUNITY.
I'M AN EVANGELICAL CHRISTIAN.
I THINK THERE IS A LOT OF HISTORY HERE GOING BACK 150 YEARS OF A CONCERN THAT MAYBE CERTAIN ASPECTS OF SCIENCE, PARTICULARLY BIOLOGICAL SCIENCE AND GEOLOGY ARE WORKING IN A WAY THAT'S CONTRARY TO WHAT A LITERAL INTERPRETATIONS OF THE BIBLE, PARTICULARLY GENESIS I AND II MIGHT SAY ABOUT THE ORIGINS.
FOR SOMEBODY LIKE MYSELF WHO DIDN'T HAVE THAT PARTICULAR LITERAL INTERPRETATION SOLD TO ME EARLY IN MY LIFE AS THE ONLY WAY TO LOOK AT THOSE VERSES, I DON'T SEE A CONFLICT AT ALL.
I DON'T THINK THOSE WERE INTENDED TO BE SCIENTIFIC DESCRIPTIONS OF THE START OF THE UNIVERSE.
I THINK SCIENCE HELPS US FIGURE OUT THE HOW PART, BUT GOD WAS TELLING US THE WHY.
BUT PEOPLE CARRY THAT CONCERN WITH THEM, ESPECIALLY IN MORE CONSERVATIVE CHRISTIAN CHURCHES THAT MAYBE SCIENCE HAS AN AGENDA, AND MAYBE IT'S AN AGENDA THAT IS NOT RESPECTFUL OF FAITH EMISSIONS.
SO WHEN SCIENTISTS COME FORWARD WITH SOMETHING LIKE A VACCINE SAYING HERE, THIS IS GOD FOR YOU, THERE IS GOING TO BE A SLIGHTLY LARGER AMOUNT OF SKEPTICISM THAN SOMEBODY FROM ANOTHER COMMUNITY.
AND THEN WHEN THAT GETS WHIPPED UP BY OTHER POLITICAL CONSIDERATIONS, AND OTHER KINDS OF MISINFORMATION COMING FROM SOCIAL MEDIA, AND SOMETIMES FROM POLITICIANS, IT KIND OF GETS A LIFE OF ITS OWN.
AND YES, IT WAS WHITE EVANGELICAL CHRISTIANS THAT WERE THE MOST UNCOMFORTABLE ACCEPTING THE VACCINE AND PAID, I'M SORRY TO SAY, A TERRIBLE PRICE IN TERMS OF WHAT THAT MEANT FOR PEOPLE WHO LOST THEIR LIVES AS A RESULT.
>> AT THE END OF THE BOOK, YOU TALK ABOUT HOW ALL OF US CITIZENS, ORDINARY PEOPLE SHOULD TAKE A PLEDGE AND SHOULD DO SOME THINGS TO TRY TO REDUCE THE AMOUNT OF POISON IN OUR DISCOURSE, TO COME TOGETHER A BIT MORE, AND TO TRY TO FIGURE OUT WHERE WE CAN AGREE ON WHAT TRUTH OR FAITH OR OTHER THINGS MAY LEAD US.
TELL ME ABOUT WHAT YOU THINK WE SHOULD ALL DO RIGHT NOW.
>> WELL, THAT IS WHAT I AM DOWN ON AS THE POSSIBLE SOLUTION TO THIS UNFORTUNATE SITUATION WE FIND OURSELVES IN.
I DON'T SEE THE DIVISIVENESS AND THE HYPER POLARIZATION AND THE VITRIOL AND THE FEAR AND THE ANGER GETTING SOLVED BY POLITICAL VOICES.
BUT I THINK IT CAN BE SOLVED BY US.
IF EACH OF US WOULD DO A COUPLE OF THINGS, FIRST, TRY TO TAKE YOUR OWN TRUTH TEMPERATURE AND SAY HAVE I BROUGHT ON BOARD THINGS THAT ARE ACTUALLY NOT TRUE?
IN WHICH CASE, MAYBE THOSE NEED TO BE DISCARDED.
HAVE A HARD LOOK AT WHETHER YOU HAVE BEEN ABLE TO DISCERN THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN FACTS AND FAKES.
WE ALL GET HIT WITH A LOT OF THOSE.
SORT THAT OUT.
AND THEN SECOND, BECOME ONE OF THOSE THAT BUILDS A BRIDGE WITH PEOPLE OF DIFFERENT OPINIONS, LIKE I LEARNED TO DO WITH WILL IN BRAVER ANGELS.
REACH OUT TO SOMEBODY WHO YOU KNOW DISAGREES WITH YOU ABOUT SOMETHING, WHERE THERE IS A LOT OF EMOTION.
GUN CONTROL OR IMMIGRATION, AND SAY I'D REALLY LIKE TO UNDERSTAND WHERE YOU'RE COMING FROM, BECAUSE I HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO GET BEYOND THE PERSPECTIVES OF THE PEOPLE AROUND ME.
SO LET'S HAVE A GLASS OF WINE, AND YOU CAN TELL ME, AND I'M GOING REALLY LISTEN.
YOUR BACKGROUND, WHERE YOU COME FROM, WHAT YOU BELIEVE, AND HOW YOU'VE ARRIVED AT THIS PARTICULAR PERSPECTIVE, I WANT TO UNDERSTAND THAT.
AND YOU MIGHT MAKE A FRIEND, AND YOU MIGHT ALSO FIND OUT THAT YOUR OWN POSITIONS ARE NOT AS ROCK SOLID AS YOU THOUGHT THEY WERE.
AND THAT'S HOW WE BRING OURSELVES BACK TOGETHER AGAIN.
THE PLEDGE AT THE END OF THE BOOK BASICALLY IS ASKING PEOPLE NOT JUST TO SAY THAT'S A NICE IDEA, BUT TO MAKE A COMMITMENT TO BE PART OF THE SOLUTION.
IF YOU SIGN THE PLEDGE AND YOU CAN PUT YOUR NAME UP ON THE BRAVER ANGELS WEBSITE TO DOCUMENT THAT, THAT'S A REMINDER THAT WE'RE ALL IN THIS TOGETHER AND TOGETHER WE MIGHT BE ABLE TO DO AS MARGARET MEAD HAS SUGGESTED, MAKE A REAL CHANGE IN A CULTURE BECAUSE A FEW COMMITTED CITIZENS IS WHAT IT TAKES.
IN FACT, THAT'S ALL THAT HAS EVER MADE A REAL DIFFERENCE.
LET'S BE PART OF THAT.
WE HAVE A CHANCE HERE TO HEAL OUR NATION, ONE PERSON AT A TIME.
I THINK THAT'S THE BEST CHANCE WE'VE GOT TO GET BACK ON THE ROAD TO WISDOM.
>> DR. FRANCIS COLLINS, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.
>> IT WAS GREAT TO BE WITH YOU, WALTER.
>>> AND FINALLY, UKRAINE'S PRESIDENT IS PRESENTING HIS VICTORY PLAN IN WASHINGTON, D.C. TODAY.
DETAILS STILL UNDER WRAPS, BUT VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY IS LOOKING FOR ALL THE SUPPORT HE CAN GET BEFORE THIS U.S. ELECTION, WHICH COULD PUT A PUTIN FRIEND BACK IN THE WHITE HOUSE.
FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP IS TAKING THE KREMLIN'S LINE AGAIN, ESSENTIALLY SAYING THAT UKRAINE IS COMPLETELY DEMOLISHED AND JUST NEEDS TO GIVE UP.
BUT AT THE U.N., A KEY MEMBER OF THE NATO ALLIANCE, BRITAIN'S FOREIGN SECRETARY DAVID LAMMY SHARED HIS CLEAR-EYED AND DEEPLY PERSONAL VIEW OF THE RUSSIAN THREAT.
>> I SPEAK NOT ONLY AS A BRITON, AS A LONDONER, AND AS A FOREIGN SECRETARY, BUT I SAY TO THE RUSSIAN REPRESENTATIVE ON HIS PHONE AS I SPEAK THAT I STAND HERE ALSO AS A BLACK MAN WHOSE ANCESTORS WERE TAKEN IN CHAINS FROM AFRICA AT THE BARREL OF A GUN TO BE ENSLAVED, WHOSE ANCESTORS ROSE UP AND FOUGHT IN A GREAT REBELLION OF THE ENSLAVED.
IMPERIALISM, I KNOW IT WHEN I SEE IT.
AND I WILL CALL IT OUT FOR WHAT IT IS.
>> POWERFUL STUFF, AND THAT IS IT FOR NOW.
THANK YOU FOR WATCHING.
GOODBYE FROM NEW YORK.
>>> "AMANPOUR & CO." IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS CANDACE KING WEIR THE SYLVIA A.
AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS MARK J. BLECHNER THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION SETON J. MELVIN THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND CHARLES ROSENBLUM KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.
THANK YOU.