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> HELLO, EVERYONE.
WELCOME TO 'AMANPOUR & COMPANY.'
HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.
ALL OF THE ACTIONS NOW ARE TO STAY AHEAD OF THE VIRUS.
WITH COVID CASES CLIMBING, THE U.S. BEGINS ROLLING OUT BOOSTER SHOTS.
CDC DIRECTOR TELLS WALTER ISAACSON WHY SHE BROKE PRECEDENT TO EXPAND ACCESS TO THE DOSES.
THEN -- GERMANY'S CENTER LEFT POSTED A WIN OVER MERKEL'S PARTY.
WHAT DOES IT ALL MEAN BE FOR EUROPE AND THE TRANS ATLANTIC PARTNERSHIP.--
I'M OPTIMISTIC ABOUT THIS WEEK.
IT'S GOING TO TAKE THE BETTER PART OF THE WEEK, I THINK.
PRESIDENT BIDEN'S AMBITIOUS AGENDA BEGINS A MAKE OR BREAK WEEK.
HIS SECRET EFFORTS TO DOWNPLAY GLOBAL WARMING.
JOURNALIST JANE MAYER FOLLOWS THE MOPE.
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> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.
I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.
DESPITE PLEAS FROM THE WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION, THE U.K.
AND OTHER RICH NATIONS ARE MOVING FORWARD WITH COVID BOOSTER SHOTS.
THE UNITED STATES IS JUST THE LATEST TO JOIN THE MIX AFTER SOME BOLD ACTIONS FROM THE CDC DIRECTOR.
DR. ROCHELLE WALENSKY OFFERED BOOSTERS TO PEOPLE OVER 65 AND WITH UNDERLYING CONDITIONS BUT IN A RARE STEP SHE BROKE WITH THE PANEL AND DECIDED TO ALSO INCLUDE FRONT LINE WORKERS AND WITH INFECTIONS RISING AMONGST CHILDREN, ANOTHER BIG DECISION AWAITS WALENSKY.
PFIZER SAYS WITHIN DAYS IT WILL ASK AUTHORITIES TO APPROVE ITS VACCINE FOR KIDS AGES 5 TO 11.
HERE IS DR. WALENSKY SPEAKING TO WALTER ISAACSON ABOUT THE CHANCE OF A COVID FREE FUTURE AND HOW SHE FOUGHT TO CONVINCE 70 MILLION AMERICAN HOLDOUTS TO FINALLY GET VACCINATED.
THANK YOU.
WELCOME TO THE SHOW.
GOOD MORNING.
THANKS FOR HAVING ME.
WHY DID YOU EXPAND THE ELIGIBILITY OF PEOPLE GETTING BOOSTER SHOTS ON PFIZER FROM WHAT THE FDA EXPERT PANEL RECOMMENDED?EAH, THIS IS A REALY IMPORTANT QUESTION.
SO, FIRST OF ALL, THIS PAST WEEK WE RECOMMENDED BOOSTERS FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVE RECEIVED THE PFIZER DOSE AND ARE MORE THAN SIX MONTHS OUT.
THIS IS FOR PEOPLE OVER THE AGE OF 65, PEOPLE WHO HAVE HIGH RISK UNDERLYING CONDITIONS AND FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE AT HIGH RISK OF DISEASE BY VIRTUE OF WHERE THEY LIVE OR WORK.
THESE ARE PEOPLE WITH DIABETES, ASTHMA, UNDERLYING HEART OR LUNG DISEASE, PEOPLE WHO ARE HIGH RISK WORKERS LIKE HEALTH CARE PERSONNEL AND TEACHERS AND FRONT LINE WORKERS AS WELL AS PEOPLE WHO MIGHT LIVE IN HOMELESS SHELTERS OR PRISON.
THAT WAS THE GROUP WE WERE TALKING ABOUT, THE HIGHEST RISK THE SCIENTIFIC PROCESS UNFOLDS HERE BY A SCIENTIFIC ADVISORY PANEL AT THE FDA, THE AUTHORIZATION AT THE FDA AND ADVISORY PANEL AT THE CDC AND THEN MY RECOMMENDATIONS.
AND AFTER LISTENING INTENTLY TO THE SCIENTIFIC DELIBERATION OF ALL OF THESE PANELS I FULLY ENDORSED THE RECOMMENDATIONS TO HAVE BOOSTERS FOR THOSE OVER THE AGE OF 65 AS WELL AS THOSE AT HIGH RISK CONDITIONS AND WHERE IT WAS A SCIENTIFIC CLOSE CALL I MADE THE RECOMMENDATION IN LINE WITH THE FDA AND MANY PEOPLE AT THE CDC TO ALSO INCLUDE PEOPLE WHO ARE AT HIGH RISK BY VIRTUE OF WHERE THEY LIVE OR WORK.
THESE WERE OUR HEALTH CARE WORKERS AS WELL AS OUR FRONT LINE WORKERS AND TEACHERS.
SO THAT MEANS IF I'M A 45-YEAR-OLD PERSON, SLIGHTLY OVER WEIGHT AND I TEACH HIGH SCHOOL, I SHOULD GET THE
YOU KNOW, ALL OF THESE ARE GOING TO BE INDIVIDUAL RECOMMENDATIONS BUT REALLY WHAT WE ARE SAYING IS FOR THOSE WHO ARE HIGHEST RISK BY VIRTUE OF THE FACT THAT THEY WERE VACCINATED FIRST, BY VIRTUE OF THEIR UNDERLYING CONDITIONS, AGAIN, DIABETES, UNDERLYING HEART DISEASE, LUNG DISEASE, KIDNEY DISEASE, THOSE ARE THE PEOPLE WE'RE REALLY TARGETING WITH REALLY JUST OUR FIRST STEP IN BOOSTER ROLLOUTS AND THERE WILL BE MORE SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE AND MORE STEPS TO COME.
SO MANY OF THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE GOTTEN THE MODERNA SHOT, YOU HAVEN'T RECOMMENDED IT TO THEM YET.
THEY'RE JUST GOING TO PHARMACIES AROUND HERE SAYING, HEY, GIVE ME ANOTHER ONE.
DOES THAT MAKE SENSE?
SO WHAT I WANT TO EMPHASIZE HERE FOR ALL OF THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE GOTTEN THEIR INITIAL DOSES OF VACCINES, THIS IS A SLOW WANE.
YOU REMAIN VERY WELL PROTECTED FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVE GOTTEN ANY ONE OF THESE VACCINES.
WHAT I WANT TO SAY IS FOR THOSE WHO HAVE GOTTEN MODERNA AND J&J, WE WILL LOOK AT THIS WITH SIMILAR URGENCY.
WE ARE AWAITING THE SIMILAR PACKAGES FROM MODERNA AND J&J AND WE WILL BE LOOKING AT THE AUTHORIZATION AND CDC WILL WORK URGENCY.
YOU MEAN URGENCY, TOMORROW, NEXT DAY, NEXT WEEK?
WE ARE AWAITING THE PACKAGES.
I THINK WE'RE ON THE ORDER OF WEEKS.
WEEKS?
SOMEBODY WHO'S GOTTEN A SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT VACCINE HAS TO WAIT WEEKS?
WELL, WHAT I WOULD SAY AGAIN IS THE PROTECTION IS REALLY REMAINS QUITE GOOD.
REALLY HIGH LEVELS OF PROTECTION IN TERMS OF AVERTING HOSPITALIZATIONS, AVERTING SEVERE DISEASE.
ALL OF THESE ACTIONS NOW ARE TO STAY AHEAD OF THE VIRUS.
SO WHEN YOU SAY IT REMAINS QUITE GOOD, GIVE ME THE EXACT NUMBERS.
IF I HAD THE VACCINE TWO MONTHS AGO, IF I CONFLATED IT, HOW MUCH LESS IMMUNITY DO I HAVE IF IT WAS SEVEN MONTHS AGO IN FEBRUARY WHEN I DID IT?
YOU KNOW, THE STUDIES VARY BY WHICH STUDY WAS DONE, WHEN IT WAS DONE.
YOU RUN THE CDC.
SHOULDN'T WE KNOW HOW MUCH LOWER OUR PROTECTION IS AFTER SEVEN MONTHS THAN TWO MONTHS?
ABSOLUTELY.
SO WE STARTED TO SEE SOME WANING IN THOSE WHO ARE OVER THE AGE OF 65 AND 75, BUT WHAT WE STILL KNOW EVEN TODAY IS THAT IF YOU ARE UNVACCINATED, YOU ARE TEN TIMES MORE LIKELY TO DIE AND 11 TIMES MORE LIKELY TO BE IN THE HOSPITAL COMPARED TO IF YOU'RE VACCINATED.
WE'RE TALKING ABOUT PEOPLE WHO ARE VACCINATED.
WHEN YOU SAY IT STARTS TO WANE, DO YOU HAVE HALF THE IMMUNITY, 1/3 OF IT OR --
OH, ABSOLUTELY NOT.
WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT IS DIFFERENCES BETWEEN 95, 90% PROTECTION TO 85, 80% WE ARE PEA NOT SEEING IN TERMS OF HOSPITAL DAYS.
WE'RE SEEING WANING WITH REGARDS TO INFECTIONS.
99% BEFORE AT 70, 75%, 80% DEPENDING ON THE STUDY.
EXPLAIN THAT TO US IN NUMBERS THAT WE CAN ALL UNDERSTAND.
LAST WEEK HOW MANY PEOPLE IN AMERICA GOT BREAKTHROUGH INFECTIONS, THEY HAD BEEN VACCINATED, THEY GOT INFECTIONS?
YOU KNOW, THAT'S ACTUALLY NOT THE BEST EPIDEMIOLOGIC WAY TO EXAMINE HOW OUR VACCINES ARE WORKING BECAUSE MANY OF THOSE BREAKTHROUGH INFECTIONS ARE NOT BEING REPORTED, NOT BEING FOLLOWED AND IN FACT MANY PEOPLE ARE NOT EVEN BEING TESTED.
WAIT.
ISN'T THAT WHAT THE CDC IS SUPPOSED TO DO, IS TO TELL US HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE GETTING INFECTED WITH THIS DISEASE?
WELL, SO HOW WE FOLLOW THIS IS THROUGH NUMEROUS COHORT STUDIES WHERE WE HAVE EXACTLY THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN VACCINATED AND WE ACTUALLY TEST THEM WEEKLY IN SOME OF OUR COHORT STUDIES SO WE CAN FIND THE SYMPTOMATIC INFECTIONS AS WELL AS THE ASYMPTOMATIC INFECTIONS.
STILL, I'M KIND OF CURIOUS, ABOUT HOW MANY PEOPLE LAST WEEK DID GET BREAKTHROUGH INFECTIONS?
SO WE HAVE LAST WEEK ABOUT 15,000 PEOPLE THAT HAVE BEEN REPORTED OF BREAKTHROUGH INFECTIONS THAT HAVE BEEN HOSPITALIZED.OUT 75% OF THOSE AE AGE OF 65 AND THAT IS WHY THEY'RE HOSPITALIZED WITH BREAKTHROUGHS. IS WHY WE HAVE ME RECOMMENDATION NOW TO GET YOUR BOOSTER SHOT IF YOU ARE OVER THE AGE OF 65.
SO OF THOSE 15,000 THAT WERE HOSPITALIZED, HOW MANY OF THEM HAVE HAD THE VACCINE IN THE PAST TWO MONTHS VERSUS DIDN'T HAVE IT FOR THE PAST SEVEN MONTHS?
YOU KNOW, THE DATA THAT WE'RE SEEING NOW LOOKS LIKE THERE IS SOME WANING RELATED TO THE TIME SINCE YOU LAST HAD YOUR VACCINE AND THEN THERE'S SOME DECREASED PROTECTION BECAUSE OF DELTA ITSELF AND WE'RE WORKING NOW TO LOOK AT THE SCIENCE TO TEASE APART HOW MUCH IS RELATED TO THE DELTA VIRUS AND HOW MUCH IS RELATED TO THE WANING OF VACCINE EFFECTIVENESS OVER TIME.
NO, THAT'S A VERY GOOD WHAT'S THE DATA SHOW?
WELL, SO BOTH ARE AT PLAY AND THOSE DATA ARE JUST EMERGING RIGHT NOW.
WE HAVE SEEN SOME EVIDENCE THAT SUGGESTS IT IS NOT JUST BECAUSE VACCINES ARE WANING, THAT THERE MAY HAVE BEEN LESS VACCINE PROTECTION BECAUSE OF THE DELTA VIRUS.
THAT WILL SCIENTIFICALLY UNFOLD, WE ARE ALSO SAYING REGARDLESS IF YOU HAVE LESS PROTECTION, NOW IS THE TIME TO BOOST.
AND WHEN WE ROLL OUT THESE BOOSTER SHOTS, MAYBE YOU DO IT FOR MODERNA QUICKLY, JOHNSON & JOHNSON, DO YOU WORRY WE'RE TAKING VACCINES AWAY FROM THE REST OF THE WORLD?
I THINK THAT WE HAVE TO DO THREE THINGS AT THE SAME TIME.
WE NEED TO VACCINATE 70 MILLION AMERICANS THAT ARE UNVACCINATED.
WE NEED TO BOOST THOSE WHO ARE VACCINATED HERE IN THE UNITED STATES AND AROUND THE WORLD IN ORDER TO OPTIMIZE THEIR AND WE NEED TO VACCINATE THE REST OF THE WORLD.
I'M REALLY PROUD THAT PRESIDENT BIDEN ANNOUNCED ANOTHER 500 MILLION VACCINES FOR THE REST OF THE WORLD.
WE HAVE NOW DONATED 1.1 BILLION IN VACCINES FOR THE REST OF THE WORLD AND ENCOURAGING OTHER COUNTRIES TO REALLY STEP UP AS WE HAVE AND FOR EVERY VACCINE WE ADMINISTERED HERE IN THE UNITED STATES WE'VE DONATED THREE FOR THE REST OF THE WORLD.
WHEN DO YOU THINK WE'RE GOING TO GET AN ANTIVIRAL TREATMENT RATHER THAN A VACCINE?
A PILL IN PARTICULAR.
AN EASY ONE NOT LIKE MONOCLONAL ANTIBODIES THAT YOU HAVE TO HAVE INFUSED INTO YOU.
EVERYBODY RECOGNIZES IF WE GET TO SOME STEADY STATE, WHEN WE GET TO SOME STEADY STATE WITH THIS CORONAVIRUS PANDEMIC, WE WILL LIKELY HAVE AND WANT TO HAVE NOT JUST VACCINES BUT TREATMENTS AVAILABLE, EASY TREATMENTS AVAILABLE.
I KNOW THERE'S ACTIVE SCIENTIFIC INVESTIGATION ON THOSE.
I AM LOOKING FORWARD TO SEEING THOSE STUDIES AND THOSE DRUGS COME TO FRUITION.
YOU SAID A WHILE BACK THAT PEOPLE WHO ARE VACCINATED CAN GET BREAK THROUGH INFECTIONS, THEY'RE JUST AS LIKELY TO TRANSMIT THE VIRUS TO SOMEBODY ELSE AS PEOPLE WHO HAVEN'T BEEN VACCINATED. THE DATA SHOW THAT'L THE CASE?
YEAH.
SO THAT'S A REALLY IMPORTANT QUESTION.RST I WANT TO EMPHASIZF YOU'RE VACCINATED YOU'RE MUCH LESS LIKELY TO GET DISEASE IN THE FIRST PLACE, BUT FOR THOSE PEOPLE WHO DO GET A RARE BREAK THROUGH INFECTION, WE HAVE SEEN IT LIKELY BECAUSE OF THE DELTA VARIANT.
YOU ARE ALMOST AS TRANSMISSIBLE AS THOSE WHO ARE UNVACCINATED.
THAT WAS THE REASON BACK IN JULY WE PUT THE MASKS BACK ON VACCINATED PEOPLE.
YEAH, THE SCIENCE STILL HOLDS IN THAT AREA.
AND HAVE YOU GOTTEN A BREAKTHROUGH INFECTION BUT YOU HAVE NO SYMPTOMS, DO YOU STILL HAVE TO BE WEARING A MASK?
INDEED.
IN FACT, THE SCIENCE STILL DEMONSTRATES IF YOU'RE ASYMPTOMATIC BREAKTHROUGH, YOU HAVE ENOUGH VIRUS IN YOUR NASOPHARYNX AND AIRWAYS TO POTENTIALLY TRANSMIT TO OTHERS.
WHAT PROPORTION OF NEW COVID CASES ARE CAUSED BY INFECTIONS FROM VACCINATED PEOPLE?
WE THINK THE VAST MAJORITY OF INFECTIONS REMAIN AMONG THE UNVACCINATED.THERE ARE STILL 70N PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY WHO ARE YET TO BE VACCINATED AND WHAT WE HAVE SEEN IS THE RACE BETWEEN TRANSMISSION ARE FAR HIGHER IN THE AREAS THAT HAVE LOWER VACCINATION RATES.
WE'VE SEEN IN COMMUNITIES WITH HIGH VACCINATION RATES THAT YOU ACTUALLY PROTECT YOUR CHILDREN, YOUR UNVACCINATED CHILDREN.
COMMUNITIES WITH HIGH VACCINATION RATES WERE FOUR TIMES LESS LIKELY TO HAVE HIGH RATES OF DISEASE AMONG CUMULATIVE CHILDREN THAN COMMUNITIES OF LOW VACCINATION RATES.
WE'VE SEEN THIS IMPACT OF HIGH RATES OF COMMUNITY VACCINATION LEADING TO LOWER RATES OF DISEASE EVEN AMONG PEOPLE WHO ARE UNVACCINATED LIKE THEIR CHILDREN.
AND WHAT PROPORTION OF THESE NEW COVID CASES THAT ARE COMING UP NOW COME FROM SCHOOL KIDS OR SOMEHOW THEY'RE TRANSMITTING IT?
YOU KNOW, WITH MORE AND MORE ADULTS BEING VACCINATED, WE ARE SEEING NOW MORE DISEASE AND WITH THE DELTA VARIANT WE'RE SEEING MORE DISEASE IN UNVACCINATED MANY OF THOSE UNVACCINATED PEOPLE ARE CHILDREN, BUT WHAT I CAN SAY IS STUDY AFTER STUDY SHOWS THAT THIS IS NOT ACTUALLY HAPPENING IN SCHOOLS WHERE PROPER MITIGATION STRATEGIES ARE BEING USED.
WHAT'S GENERALLY HAPPENING IS IN THE SCHOOLS THE DISEASE COMES FROM THE COMMUNITY INTO THE SCHOOL AND IF THERE'S PROPER MITIGATION STRATEGIES IN THE SCHOOL, THE CHAIN OF TRANSMISSION STOPS THERE AND THERE IS NOT MORE OUTBREAKS IN THE SCHOOL.
HOWEVER, IF PROPER MITIGATION STRATEGIES ARE NOT BEING USED IN THE SCHOOLS, THEN THE TRANSMISSION WILL CONTINUE IN THE SCHOOLS.
SO WHEN YOU SAY ALL SCHOOL KIDS SHOULD BE WEARING A MASK?
I WOULD SAY ANYBODY WHO IS IN A SCHOOL, A TEACHER, A STAFF, A VISITOR, A CHILD SHOULD BE WEARING A MASK RIGHT NOW.
PFIZER IS GOING TO ASK FOR AUTHORIZATION FOR VACCINES FOR CHILDREN 5 TO 11 PROBABLY IN A MATTER OF DAYS.
WALK ME THROUGH HOW THAT'S GOING TO ROLL OUT.
WHAT'S THE FDA GOING TO DO, THE EXPERT PANEL GOING TO DO?
WHEN DO YOU WEIGH IN?
WHAT DO YOU SAY TO SOMEBODY?
WAIT, I HAVE AN 11-YEAR-OLD.
I WANT HIM OR HER VACCINATED.
THIS PROCESS UNFOLDS THE WAY ALL OF OUR SCIENTIFIC PROCESSES HAVE UNFOLDED.
THE PACKAGE WILL BE DELIVERED TO THE FDA.
IT WILL BE TREATED WITH URGENCY AND THERE IS AN ADVISORY PANEL THAT WILL MEET.
THEN THE FDA WILL AUTHORIZE IT AND IT PASSES TO THE CDC ADVISORY CHANNEL.
THEY WILL MEET AND LOOK OVER THE DATA, BOTH ON THE EFFECTIVENESS AND THE SAFETY PROFILES AND THEN I WILL MAKE THE RECOMMENDATIONS AND I'M CERTAINLY HOPING AFTER THE FDA RECEIVES THE PACKAGE, THAT IT WILL BE IN THE ORDER OF WEEKS.
AND WHAT ABOUT PREGNANT WOMEN?
THIS IS SUCH A CRITICAL POINT IN THIS MOMENT IN TIME.
IN AUGUST ALONE, THIS PAST AUGUST THERE WERE 21 DEATHS FROM COVID OF PREGNANT WOMEN.
HERE'S WHAT WE KNOW, WE KNOW THAT PREGNANT WOMEN ARE MORE LIKELY TO BE IN THE ICU.
TWO TIMES MORE LIKELY TO REQUIRE MECHANICAL VENTILATION.
WE KNOW THAT THE FEET TALL ADVERSE OUTCOMES IF MOM HAS COVID ARE HIGHER AND SO WE REALLY DO NEED TO GET PREGNANT WOMEN VACCINATED.
WE NOW HAVE EXTRAORDINARY SAFETY DATA ON PREGNANT WOMEN.
WE HAVEN'T SEEN HIGHER RATES OF ADVERSE PREGNANCY OUTCOMES FROM THE VACCINE ITSELF AND SO THE BIGGEST CHALLENGE NOW IS ONLY ABOUT 30% OF PREGNANT WOMEN ARE VACCINATED AND, IN FACT, IF YOU LOOK AT RACIAL AND ETHNIC MINORITY GROUPS, ONLY ABOUT 15% OF AFRICAN-AMERICAN PREGNANT WOMEN HAVE BEEN VACCINATED.
THIS IS AN EXTRAORDINARILY IMPORTANT ISSUE.
WE NEED TO WORK TO GET MORE PREGNANT WOMEN VACCINATED.
CAN YOU TELL THOSE WOMEN THAT IF THEY GET VACCINATED AND THEY'RE IN, SAY, THEIR SIXTH MONTH OF PREGNANCY, THAT THE VACCINE WON'T GO INTO THEIR UNBORN CHILD AND BE TOO HIGH OF A DOSE?
WHAT I CAN TELL YOU IS THAT WE HAVE SEEN NO ADVERSE EVENTS FROM THESE VACCINES FROM THE PREGNANT -- WHEN PREGNANT WOMEN ARE VACCINATED.
IN FACT, JUST THE OPPOSITE.
THE VACCINE, IT LOOKS LIKE, IS CROSSING INTO THE BABY AND MAY VERY WELL EVEN PROTECT THE BABY.
TELL ME ABOUT THE PEOPLE CALLED VACCINE HESITANT.
WILL THEY EVER GET VACCINATED?
YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT THIS IS A DIVERSE GROUP OF PEOPLE AND WE HAVE TO TREAT THEM INDIVIDUALLY.TO UNDERSTAND WHATS THEM HESITANT.
IS IT THAT THEY DIDN'T HAVE ACCESS, TIME OFF OF WORK?
IS IT THAT THEY HAD MISINFORMATION AND WE NEED TO GIVE THEM ALL OF THE INFORMATION THAT THEY NEED IN ORDER TO GET HESITANT -- IN ORDER TO GET VACCINATED?SO REALLY WE NEED TOE THESE FOLKS ONE AT A TIME.
THIS IS NOT UNIFORM.
THE REASON FOR HESITANCY IS NOT UNIFORM AND IT'S REALLY, REALLY IMPORTANT.
WE HAVE TRUSTED MESSENGERS FOR THESE PEOPLE, PEOPLE THEY TRUST SO THAT THERE'S NOT SHAMING OR BLAMING BUT, RATHER, TALK TO ME ABOUT WHY YOU HAVEN'T YET BEEN VACCINATED AND LET'S HAVE A DISCUSSION BECAUSE IT WOULD BE REALLY IMPORTANT FOR YOU TO PROTECT YOURSELF AND YOUR FAMILY.
EARLY ON THE UNITED STATES WAS THE BEST IN THE WORLD IN ROLLING OUT VACCINES.
NOW IT'S NOT AT THE TOP.
WHY AREN'T WE THE BEST AT GETTING PEOPLE VACVACCINATED?
YOU KNOW, AS YOU MENTIONED, WE STILL HAVE 70 MILLION AMERICANS WHO ARE NOT YET VACCINATED.
WE HAVE SOME HARD WORK AHEAD OF US.
THERE'S BEEN MISINFORMATION, DISINFORMATION THAT'S BEEN PROPAGATED OUT THERE.
WE'RE WORKING NOW THROUGH MANY DIFFERENT STRATEGIES, VACCINE CONFIDENCE CONSULTS, WORKING WITH COMMUNITY PARTNERS, WORKING WITH FAITH-BASED PARTNERS, DOING THE HARD WORK OF REACHING INTO COMMUNITIES AND GETTING PEOPLE THE INFORMATION THAT THEY NEED SO THAT THEY WANT TO BE VACCINATED.
HOW CAN WE HAVE PREVENTED VACCINATIONS AND MASK WEARING FROM BECOMING SO POLITICALLY POLARIZED? KNOW, I THINK WE AS A COUNTRY HAVE NOT UNIFIED AGAINST THE ENEMY HERE.
THE ENEMY HERE IS THE VIRUS AND WHAT WE REALLY NEED TO DO, EVEN TODAY, IS TO ADDRESS NOT ONE ANOTHER, NOT THE CHALLENGES THAT WE HAVE WITH THESE POLICIES BUT TO RECOGNIZE THE POLICIES ARE REALLY THE BEST THING FOR PUBLIC HEALTH, THE BEST THING FOR INDIVIDUAL HEALTH, FOR FAMILY HEALTH, FOR COMMUNITY HEALTH AND FOR THE HEALTH OF OUR NATION.
I THINK WE'RE UNIFYING AGAINST OUR COMMON FOE, WHICH IS THE VIRUS ITSELF.
HOW WILL THIS MOVIE END?
WILL WE HAVE TO LEARN TO LIVE WITH COVID LIKE WE LIVE WITH THE FLU OR WILL WE BE ABLE TO DEFEAT IT?
YES.
I THINK WE WILL BE ABLE TO DEFEAT IT SO WE CAN KEEP IT AT BAY, BUT I DO BELIEVE BR YOU WILL BE LIVING WITH COVID FOR SOME TIME TO COME.
THAT DOESN'T MEAN IT WILL CHANGE OUR DAILY LIVES.
WE'LL HAVE TO UNDERSTAND SOME PEOPLE MAY GET SICK WITH COVID AND WE WILL DO OUR BEST THROUGH VACCINATION, PREVENTION STRATEGIES NOT NECESSARILY THROUGH MASKING LONG TERM.
DR. WALENSKY, THANK YOU FOR ALL YOU'RE DOING IN THIS FIGHT AND THANK YOU FOR BEING WITH US.
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING
> AND TO ENCOURAGE AMERICANS TO GET THEIR BOOSTER SHOTS WHEN IT'S THEIR TURN, PRESIDENT BIDEN'S JUST GOT HIS ON CAMERA AND HE AGAIN CALLED THIS A PANDEMIC OF THE UNVACCINATED AND URGED, AS YOU HEARD, THOSE 70 MILLION AMERICANS TO GET THEIR FIRST DOSES.
WE KNOW THAT TO BEAT THIS PANDEMIC AND TO SAVE LIVES, TO KEEP OUR CHILDREN SAFE, OUR SCHOOLS OPEN WE NEED TO GET PEOPLE VACCINATED.
PLEASE.
PLEASE DO THE RIGHT THING.
GET THE SHOT.
IT CAN SAVE YOUR LIFE.
IT CAN SAVE THE LIVES OF THE PEOPLE AROUND YOU.
IT'S EASY, ACCESSIBLE AND FREE.
TEXT YOUR ZIP CODE TO 438829.
THAT'S 438829 OR VISIT VACCINES.GOV TO FIND A VACCINATION AREA FOR YOU.
> NEXT TO A CONFIDENCE BOOSTER TO GERMANY'S CENTER LEFT PARTY.
THE SOCIAL DEMOCRATS HAVE SCORED A VICTORY IN THE RACE TO REPLACE CHANCELLOR ANGELA MERKEL.
GERMANS WON'T BE SAYING ANYTHING.
THIS COULD TAKE WEEKS IF NOT MONTHS LEAVING HER IN CHARGE UNTIL THEN.
HERE TO DIG THROUGH THEIONS FORD BEYOND, WE HAVE ANN APPLEBAUM, STAFF WRITER FOR 'THE ATLANTIC.'
I GUESS YOU'RE NOT SO SURPRISED THERE WASN'T ONE OUTRIDE RIGHT -- OUTRIGHT, WHAT HAPPENED IF IT'S OLAF SCHOTZ.
HE HAS HER CHEEKY WITT AND HE CARRIES AROUND HIS LEATHER BRIEFCASE HE'S HAD AS A YOUNG MAN.
HE'S NOT A SCIENTIST, HE IS A LAWYER.
HE'S A SOCIAL DEMOCRAT THROUGH AND THROUGH.
HE'S A PROPONENT OF A MINIMUM WAGE, OF A MINIMUM GLOBAL TAX.
HE'S FOR A STRONG PUBLIC INVESTMENT AND FOR STRONG SOCIAL SAFETY NET AND WITHIN GERMANY'S SOCIAL DEMOCRACY HE'S ON THE RIGHTISH SIDE.
HE WAS A SUPPORTER OF THE LABOR MARKET REFORMS.
HE'S ADOPTED RECENTLY A FEW PROJECTS OF THE CENTER LEFT SO I DO THINK IT WILL MAKE A POLITICAL DIFFERENCE.
ANN APPLEBAUM WATCHING THAT FROM EUROPE, NOT NECESSARILY INSIDE OF GERMANY, WHAT DO YOU THINK THIS MEANS FOR EUROPE AND AND FOR, AS I SAID, THE TRANS ATLANTIC PARTNERSHIP AND BEYOND?
SO THE REAL QUESTION FOR EVERYBODY ELSE, FOR NON-GERMANS WHO LIVE IN EUROPE OR EVEN THE U.S. IS WHAT IS THIS GOING TO MEAN FOR GERMAN FOREIGN POLICY.
THIS WASN'T A MAJOR THEME.
LIKE SO MANY ELECTIONS IN SO MANY COUNTRIES AROUND THE WORLD, FOREIGN POLICY WAS REALLY A SECONDARY ISSUE AND NEITHER SCHOLZ AND OTHERS HAVEN'T SOUNDED DIFFERENT FROM MERKEL.
THEY HAVEN'T SAID ANYTHING THAT WOULD INDICATE THEY'RE WILLING TO PUSH GERMANY IN A DIFFERENT DIRECTION.
THE ISSUES THAT ARE REALLY IMPORTANT ARE IS GERMANY WILLING TO TAKE ON A BIGGER DEFENSE AND SECURITY ROLE OR IS IT WILLING TO ALLOW GERMANY TO DO THAT.
IS GERMANY WILLING TO PUSH BACK MORE DRAMATICALLY AGAINST RUSSIA AND CHINA WHO ARE BEGINNING TO DICTATE THE TERMS OF ENGAGEMENT AND IN SOME CASES THE TERMS OF TRADE WITH EUROPE AND THE U.S.
THE ONE PARTY IN THE ELECTION THAT HAS REALLY SOUNDED VERY DIFFERENT ON THESE ISSUES WAS THE GREEN PARTY AND THE GOOD NEWS IS IT LOOKS LIKE THE GREEN PARTY WILL BE IN THE NEXT COALITION. SEEMS LIKE IT WOULD E DIFFICULT TO MAKE A COALITION WITHOUT THEM.
THE GREENS HAVE BEEN A LOT MORE CRITICAL OF THE RISE IN AUTOCRACY AROUND THE WORLD.
THEY'VE BEEN LOUDER ABOUT THE NEED FOR EUROPE TO PUSH BACK FROM IT.
THE NEED FOR EUROPE TO TAKE ON A BIGGER SECURITY.
LET US THEN PLAY A LITTLE BIT A AFTER THIS RESOLVED.
CAME IN SOMEWHERE AROUND I THINK THEN I'LL GET BOTH YOUR TAKES ON WHAT THAT MIGHT MEAN IF SHE ENTERS THE COALITION.
Translator: THE MARKETPLACES, SO MANY PEOPLE NEARLY JOINED OUR PARTY IN THE LAST YEAR FLED TO THIS HISTORICAL BEST RESULT.
WE WANTED MORE.
WE DIDN'T ACHIEVE IT.
ALSO DUE TO OUR OWN MISTAKES AT THE BEGINNING OF THE CAMPAIGN AND MISTAKES FROM ME.
WE ALSO STAND HERE TONIGHT AND THE FUTURE.ME WE HAVE A TASK FOR
OKAY.
SO LET ME JUST, YOU KNOW, READ THESE FIGURES.
THE MAJORITY OF UNDER 25s IN GERMANY VOTED YESTERDAY FOR THE GREEN PARTY AND OBVIOUSLY THERE'S A HUGE GENERATIONAL DIVIDE.
AS ANN POINTED OUT, THESE ARE NEW ELEMENTS OF IN GERMAN IS THIS GOING TO BE A BIG DRIVING FORCE GOING AHEAD?
YES, I DO THINK SO.
IT WAS THE ONE BIG ISSUE.
IT WASN'T JUST THE UNDER 25-YEAR-OLDS WHO SAID SO WHEN THEY WERE ASKED WHAT WAS IMPORTANT TO THEM IN THIS ELECTION.
I JUST THINK THAT THERE ARE TWO DIFFERENT APPROACHES TO TACKLING THAT.
THAT WAS THE SENSE OF DIRECTION THAT THE COUNTRY'S NOW GOING TO HAVE TO TAKE AND I THINK THE TWO APPROACHES TO IT IN GERMANY ARE DO WE WANT MORE, SAY, REGULATION TO BATTLE CLIMATE CHANGE AND TO REACH THE GOAL OF BEING CLIMATE NEUTRAL BY 2045?
OR DO WE WANT TO PLAY IT VIA THE MARKET.
THE GREEN PARTY IS VERY MUCH FOR MORE AND VERY STRONG, SAFE REGULATION OR THE RULES ARE FAVORING A MARKET APPROACH AND NOW WE'VE COME OUT WITH.
THEY HAVE A VERY STRONG FEELING ABOUT IT.
52 OF THE PAST 72 YEARS SINCE THE END OF THE WAR HAVE BEEN DOMINATED BY HER PARTY AND NOW IT LOOKS LIKE THEY'RE HEADED TO THE OPPOSITION POTENTIALLY.
LET US PLAY THIS SOUND BITE.
Translator: THE RESULT OF THE ELECTION YESTERDAY HAS NOT ONLY POSED BY QUESTIONS TO THE CDU BUT ALSO TO THE COUNTRY.
ANOTHER PARTY WITH A CLEAR MANDATE GO INTO OPPOSITION, THAT WILL BE FINE, BUT NO PARTY IN THIS CASE HAS A CLEAR RESULT IN WHICH THEY CAN DEDUCT A CLAIM TO GOVERN.
SO DOES IT MARK, ANN APPLEBAUM, A SHIFT AWAY FROM CONSERVATIVE AND A LOT OF LOOKING AT WHAT MIGHT HAPPEN IN THE NEXT ELECTION?
IS MACRON VULNERABLE ON HIS LEFT AS WELL AS ON HIS FAR RIGHT?
WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THAT BIGGER TREND?
THERE ARE THE BREAKDOWN OF TWO BIG FORCES, THE CENTER LEFT AND THE CENTER RIGHT.
THE POLITICS IS ABOUT THE TITANIC BATTLE BETWEEN THE TWO OF THEM.
ONE PERSON HAS DESCRIBED IT AS REPRESENTING THE DUTCHIFICATION OF GERMAN POLITICS, WHICH MEANS IT'S LOOKING LIKE THE NETHERLANDS.
EACH WITH A FEW PERCENTAGES OF VOTES AND ALL GOVERNMENTS HAVE THE BROAD COALITIONS.
AND IN THE U.S. AND THE U.K.
WHERE YOU HAVE FIRST SYSTEMS, THAT PHENOMENON IS A LITTLE BIT DIVIDED.
BUT IN FACT EVERYWHERE -- OR DISGUISED, I SHOULD SAY, NOT DIVIDED.
EVERYWHERE YOU HAVE A GROWING DIVERSIFICATION AS THE CENTRAL ISSUES REALLY ARE NO LONGER THE SIZE OF THE STATE.
YOU KNOW, TAXES, THE TRADITIONAL ISSUES THAT DIVIDED THE CENTER LEFT AND THE CENTER RIGHT.
THEY'RE NOW, AS ANNA WAS JUST SAYING, THERE ARE ISSUES THAT DIVIDE AND SPLIT THE ELECTORATE IN DIFFERENT WAYS.
WE'RE FOR CLIMATE CHANGE BUT WHAT KIND OF CLIMATE CHANGE.
OKAY, WE'RE FOR DIFFERENT KIND OF ENGAGEMENT IN THE WORLD BUT WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?
A LOT OF COUNTRIES DIVISION OVER VALUES AND IDENTITIES.
I THINK IN THAT SENSE GERMANY IS AN INDICATION OF WHAT WE'RE GOING TO SEE MORE OF IN MORE CASES, NAMELY WIDER RANGE OF PARTIES, WIDER RANGE OF VIEWS AND, THEREFORE, GOVERNMENTS THAT ARE NECESSARILY COALITIONS WHICH -- YOU KNOW, WHICH HAS A GOOD SIDE AS WELL AS A BAD.
SO, ANNA, LET'S JUST CONTINUE THAT ISSUE BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, I THINK YOU AND OTHERS HAVE WRITTEN THAT IT COULD USHER, THIS IDEA OF TRYING TO BUILD A COALITION COULD TAKE WEEKS, MONTHS.
MEANTIME, MERKEL WILL STILL BE AT THE HELM.
DO YOU BELIEVE THAT IT WILL BE MESSY AND LESS STABLE OR IS, AS ANNA PUT IT, COALITIONS ARE KIND OF COMMON IN EUROPE, IF NOT IN THE U.K. AND THE U.S., AND USHER IN MORE STABILITY THAN
Translator: ON GERMANY WE HAVE A LOT OF EXPERIENCE WITH BUILDING COALITIONS.
LAST TIME IT WAS VERY MESSY AND I THINK MANY OTHER COUNTRIES IN EUROPE AND OUR PARTNERS HAVE THAT BAD MEMORY OF BEING WITHOUT A GERMAN GOVERNMENT, WITHOUT SOMEONE IN FOR OVER HALF A YEAR.
IT TOOK UNTIL MARCH 2018 TO BUILD A GOVERNMENT AFTER THE ELECTION IN DECEMBER 2017.
I THINK THIS TIME IT'S GOING TO BE QUICKER BECAUSE PARTIES HAVE USED THE TIME IN THE PAST LEGISLATION TO GET TO KNOW EACH OTHER, PARTICULARLY THE GREEN PARTY AND THE LIBERALS.
I THINK THEY KNOW EACH OTHER WELL.
THEY KNOW WHAT STUMBLING BLOCKS THEY WILL HAVE TO DEAL WITH.
EVERYBODY IS POINTING TO THE EUROPEAN NEIGHBORS THAT THEY WANT TO BE DONE BY CHRISTMAS TIME. WOULD BE BETTER THAN LAST
LET'S NOW PLAY THE GUY WHO ACTUALLY CAME OUT AHEAD.
WE'VE DONE THOSE WHO DIDN'T, BUT LET'S PUT OLAF SCHOLZ IF HE WAS ABLE TO MAKE A COALITION AND BE A PARTNER.
THE TRANS ATLANTIC PARTNERSHIP IS OF ESSENCE TO US IN GERMANY AND FOR A GOVERNMENT THAT WILL BE LED BY ME.
AND SO YOU CAN RELY ON THE CONTINUITY IN THIS QUESTION.
IT IS IMPORTANT THAT WE UNDERSTAND OURSELVES AS DEMOCRACIES AND THAT WE SEE IN THE WORLD IT BECOMES MORE DANGEROUS, IT IS IMPORTANT THAT WE WORK TOGETHER EVEN IF WE DO HAVE CONFLICTS IN ONE OF THE OTHER QUESTIONS.
SO THAT IS, I GUESS, THE HEART OF THE MATTER, RIGHT?
ANN, YOU'VE DONE SO MUCH WORK ON THIS.
YOU'RE THERE IN LONDON BUT YOU'VE BEEN IN EASTERN EUROPE AS WELL AND YOU SEE THE STRAINS AND THE STRESSES WITHIN THE EUROPEAN FAMILY OVER DEMOCRACY VERSUS AUTHORITARIANISM OR QUASI AUTHORITARIANISM. KNOW THAT GERN THE STRONG MAN OF EUROPE FOR A LONG TIME, PARTICULARLY UNDER MERKEL'S LEADERSHIP.
THAT'S THE BIG QUESTION, ISN'T IT?
DOES GERMANY CONTINUE TO MAINTAIN ITS POSITION AS THE UNDISPUTED HEAVY WEIGHT LEADER OF EUROPE?
ACTUALLY, WHAT I'M WORRIED ABOUT IN THE CASE OF GERMANY IS SOMETHING A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT, NAMELY THAT WHETHER IT'S GOING TO BE CHANCELLOR SCHOLZ OR SOMEBODY ELSE, THAT GERMANY GOES ON REPEATING THESE MANTRAS, WE RESPECT THE TRANS ATLANTIC RELATIONSHIP, AND SO ON.
THAT'S USEFUL AND GOOD BUT TO MOVE FORWARD THE TRANS ATLANTIC ALLIANCE, IT'S GOING TO NEED TO MAKE SOME BROADER, MORE DIFFICULT DECISIONS.
FOR EXAMPLE, ARE WE GOING TO FINALLY PASS THE LAWS THAT MAKE AUTOCRACY AND FOREIGN AUTOCRATS WHO USE WESTERN BANKING AND MONEY LAUNDERING SYSTEMS TO LAUNDER THEIR MONEY, ARE WE GOING TO START TO MAKE THAT IMPOSSIBLE?WE GOING TO MAKE IT E DIFFICULT FOR RUSSIA TO MANIPULATE ELECTIONS OR INFLUENCE GERMANY AND OTHER PARTS OF THE CONTINENT AROUND THE WORLD?
ARE WE GOING TO SPEAK UP ABOUT CHINA'S MISTREATMENT OF ITS UIGHUR POPULATION, A MILLION OF WHOM ARE IN CONCENTRATION CAMPS?
HOW ARE WE GOING TO ADDRESS THOSE ISSUES?
YOU KNOW, THESE HAVE NOT BEEN AREAS WHERE GERMANY HAS BEEN PARTICULARLY GREAT IN THE LAST SEVERAL YEARS.
MERKEL HAS BEEN, YOU'RE RIGHT, A STEADY HAND.
SHE KEPT GERMANY, PARTICULARLY DURING THE VERY DIFFICULT TRUMP YEARS, SHE KEPT GERMANY WITHIN THE ALLIANCE.
SHE SPOKE ON BEHALF OF THE ALLIANCE, BUT REALLY WE NOW NEED TO BE PUSHING A LITTLE HARDER AND I -- I'M NOT CONVINCED SCHOLZ WILL WANT TO DO THAT.
HE'S GOING TO HAVE OTHER PRIORITIES.
HE MAY FIND CIRCUMSTANCES FORCE HIM TO CONFRONT SOME OF THOSE FASTER THAN HE WOULD LIKE.
ANN, DO YOU AGREE IF HE HAS THE COALITION, HE MIGHT HAVE HIS HAND FORCED?
WILL HE DEAL WITH THAT?
DO THE GERMAN PEOPLE WANT THAT KIND OF DIRECTION FROM THEIR CHANCELLOR? THINK HE MAY HAVE TN FOR THE GREENS AND LIBERALS.
THEY HAVE A STRONG POSITION ON LIBERALISM AND HUMAN RIGHTS.
THEY HAVE BEEN VERY CRITICAL OF ANGELA MERKEL, OF HER POLICY WHICH THEY HAVE FOUND TO BE TACIT, PARTICULARLY TOWARDS HUNGARY AND POLAND WITHIN THE EUROPEAN UNION AND TO WATCH RUSSIA.
SHE HAS ALWAYS SEEN VERY HARSH CRITICISM FROM THOSE TWO PARTIES.
OLAF SCHOLZ, IN HIS PARTY, THERE'S STILL A LARGE GROUP THAT IS VERY MUCH NOSTALGIC ABOUT THE POLICIES OF THE COLD WAR AND IT'S STILL A GREAT FIGURE TO I THINK EVEN WITH THE MISREPRESENTATION OF WHAT HE WANTED, THEY STILL ARGUE THAT RUSSIA IS A SPECIAL FRIEND OF GERMANY.
WE HEAR THAT FROM THE FRENCH PRESIDENT.
I DON'T THINK OLAF SCHOLZ IS IN THAT CAMP BUT HE WILL HAVE THIS STRUGGLE WITH THIS CAMP IF THE GREENS AND LIBERALS PULL IN TOO
ANNA, WHAT ABOUT ASD, THE VERY FAR RIGHT GROUP THAT ROSE AFTER THE 2015 MIGRATION CRISIS.
IT LOST A FEW PERCENTAGE POINTS SIGNIFICANTLY BUT IT'S STILL A PRESENCE IN PARLIAMENTARY POLITICS, RIGHT?
ABSOLUTELY.
IT'S STILL A PRESENCE THAT GERMANY WILL HAVE TO DEAL WITH.
LARGE PARTS OF THE PARTY ARE UNDER OBSERVATION.
THEY ARE ONE AND IN JACKSON THEY HAVE COME IN FIRST AS THE STRONGEST PARTY.
WE HAVE TO TAKE VERY SERIOUSLY SO I DO THINK IT'S SOOTHING THAT THEY SEEM TO HAVE A CAP ON THEIR GROWTH THAT THEY COULDN'T GET THEIR OWN RESULTS FROM.
THE LAST ELECTION THEY HAVE SPENT A LITTLE BIT.
I THINK IT WILL BE VERY HARD TO WIN BACK THOSE VOTERS.
SEEMS LIKE THEY HAVE MOVED TO A BUBBLE THAT IS VERY -- VERY UNLIKELY TO RESPOND TO ANY ATTEMPTS TO WIN THOSE VOTERS BACK.
ANNA, FINALLY, I'D LIKE YOU TO CAST YOUR GAZE BACK INTO THE UNITED STATES WHERE A SIMILAR PHENOMENON IS BEING TOUTED RIGHT NOW.
YOU'VE PROBABLY HEARD ALL THE BUZZ ABOUT ROBERT KAGAN'S COLUMN ABOUT PRESIDENT TRUMP AND HIS LIKELIHOOD AS THE NEXT CANDIDATE IN 2024.
SAYING THAT THE UNITED STATES IS LOOKING DOWN THE BARREL OF A CONSTITUTIONAL CRISIS AND THAT TRUMP AND THE REPUBLICANS ARE DOING EVERYTHING THEY CAN TO SOLIDIFY THE SUPPORT THAT THEY HAD LAST TIME AROUND.
DO YOU THINK THERE WILL BE A RESURGENCE OF TRUMPISM IN 2024?
ALSO HOW TRUMP MAY USE THESE INTERVENING YEARS TO COME UP WITH SOME COUNTER OR REMEDY TO THAT CONSTITUTIONALLY?
WATCHING WHAT HAPPENS IN EUROPE AND WATCHING HOW CENTER RIGHT PARTIES FIGHT THE FAR RIGHT COULD TEACH USEFUL LESSONS, BOTH TO DEMOCRATS AND WHAT REMAINS OF THE PRO CONSTITUTION CENTRIST PIECE OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.
THERE ARE A FEW PEOPLE LEFT AND SOME VOTERS LEFT.
IN A WAY, YOU KNOW, GERMANY NEGLECTED THE FAR RIGHT FOR A LONG TIME, DIDN'T TAKE IT SERIOUSLY, DIDN'T THINK IT WAS IMPORTANT, IGNORED THE FACT, FOR EXAMPLE, THERE WAS RUSSIAND RUSA BEING DONE ON BEHALF OF THE AFC.
THAT'S ONE OF THE COMPLICATIONS AND ONE OF THE REASONS WHY IT DOES SO WELL IN THE EASTERN PART OF THE COUNTRY.
AND, YOU KNOW, WE NOW KNOW IN THE U.S. WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU NEGLECT THESE KINDS OF PHENOMENON.
LOOKING AT HOW GERMAN POLITICIANS SOUGHT TO APPEAL TO THE CENTER, HOW THEY MADE ARGUMENTS ON BEHALF OF CIVILITY, HOW THEY SOUGHT TO PROJECT IMAGE OF UNITY, I MEAN, SOME OF THAT MIGHT BE -- YES, COULD BE USEFUL FOR CENTRISTS, CENTER LEFT AND CENTER RIGHT PARTIES OR CENTER RIGHT PARTIES AND POLITICIANS ELSEWHERE AND ESPECIALLY IN THE UNITED STATES.
YOU KNOW, THE UNITED STATES IS NOW IN A MUCH MORE EXTREME POSITION THAN GERMANY, WHICH IS WE HAVE ONE OF OUR MAJOR PARTIES REALLY TOTALLY DOMINATED BY AN ANTICONSTITUTIONAL GROUP.
IN GERMANY IT'S 10% AND IT'S SOMETHING LIKE 40%. THAT IS WE HAVE THAT KIND OF DANGER FACING US REALLY NOW AT ANY ELECTION IN 2022 OR 2024.
UNTIL WE GET OVER THAT, YOU KNOW, WE CAN ONLY DREAM OF A LONG, DRAWN OUT, YOU KNOW, ARGUMENT ABOUT COALITIONS OF THE KIND THEY'RE ABOUT TO HAVE IN GERMANY.
THAT LOOKS LIKE PEACE AND HARMONY COMPARED TO WHAT WE HAVE IN THE U.S.
REALLY IMPORTANT PERSPECTIVE.
ANN APPLEBAUM AND ANN ZAUREY, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.
> WEEKS OF COALITION TALKS AT THE FED, THE UNITED STATES, BIDEN ADMINISTRATION, DOESN'T HAVE THE LUXURY OF TIME.
DEMOCRATS HAVE THREE DAYS NOW TO FUND THE GOVERNMENT OR FACE A SHUTDOWN, AND AS IF THAT WASN'T ENOUGH, PRESIDENT BIDEN'S ECONOMIC AGENDA FACES CREWSAL VOTES THIS WEEK.
THEY FACE ORGANIZED OPPOSITION FROM LOBBYISTS AND DARK MONEY CAMPAIGNS.INING ME NOW IS THE INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER, JANE MAYER.
WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
YOU MAY HAVE JUST HEARD ANN APPLEBAUM TALKING ABOUT SOME OF THE SIMILARITIES AND WARNINGS BETWEEN WHAT MAY BE HAPPENING IN EUROPE AND SOME AREAS OF THE UNITED STATES.
THE IDEA OF DEMOCRACY, OUTSIDE INFLUENCES IS PRETTY LIVE.
WHAT IS YOUR REACTION TO THAT BEFORE WE DIVE INTO THE DARK MONEY AND THE LOBBYISTS?
WELL, I THINK WE'RE UNFORTUNATELY AT A PERILOUS MOMENT ON MANY, MANY FRONTS AND IN PARTICULAR WE FEEL IT ON DEMOCRACY FROM THE FORCES OF TRUMP AND HIS ABILITY TO HAVE TAKEN OVER SO MUCH OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY AT THIS POINT.
IT'S FUELED IN PART BY MONEY.
THE BIG LIE, WE HAVE A STORY RECENTLY IN THE NEW YORKER ABOUT THE BIG MONEY BEHIND THE BIG LIE.
THERE'S A LOT OF DARK MONEY GOING INTO THAT, A LOT OF THINK TANKS THAT SEEM TO BE SUPPORTING IT.
THIS WHOLE IDEA, THIS LIE THAT TRUMP WON IS NOT JUST A FRINGE IDEA, IT'S FROM A LOT OF INSTITUTIONS THAT ARE FUNDED BY BIG MONEY AND DARK MONEY.
SO NOW AS WE DRILL DOWN INTO WHAT HIS OPPONENT, THE PERSON WHO WON, PRESIDENT BIDEN, IS TRYING TO ACHIEVE AS HIS AGENDA AND DARK MONEY AS YOU'VE SAID, LOBBYING, ALL THE REST OF IT IS THREATENING IT, LET'S JUST START AT THE BEGINNING.
HOW SERIOUS A PROBLEM DOES BIDEN FACE THIS WEEK WITH THESE VOTES IN CONGRESS AND GIVEN THE OPPOSITION, REALLY IMPORTANT PEOPLE, INCLUDING IN HIS OWN PARTY, TO THE SPENDING THAT HE'S
WELL, I MEAN, I THINK WE'RE HERE AT A MOMENT OF SORT OF MAXIMUM SHOWDOWN REALLY.
THIS IS A TREMENDOUS CHALLENGE TO THE BIDEN AGENDA.
AS I SEE IT, IT'S NOT JUST TO THE BIDEN AGENDA, IT'S A TREMENDOUS CHALLENGE TO EFFORTS THAT HE AND OTHERS HAVE MADE TO TRY TO DO SOMETHING TO TAKE ON CLIMATE CHANGE.
I MEAN, IT'S NOT JUST SORT OF A NARROW POLITICAL FIGHT, IT'S ACTUALLY KIND OF A FIGHT OF GLOBAL IMPORTANCE AND IT'S HANGING IN THE BALANCE RIGHT HERE IN CONGRESS RIGHT NOW BECAUSE BIDEN HAS PUT FORWARD A PLAN THAT PUTS A LOT OF MONEY INTO EFFORTS TO MOVE THE UNITED STATES ECONOMY FROM FOSSIL FUELS ON TO CLEAN ENERGY, RENEWABLE ENERGY AND IT'S BEING FOUGHT TOOTH AND NAIL BY THE FOSSIL FUEL INDUSTRY AND, AS YOU SAY, EVEN BY SOME MEMBERS OF BIDEN'S OWN PARTY, IN PARTICULAR ONE SENATOR, JOE MANCHIN, WHO IS A DEMOCRATIC SENATOR AND HE IS FROM A COAL PRODUCING STATE, WEST VIRGINIA.
IT'S VERY DICEY.
THE STAKES ARE HUGE.
THE AMOUNT OF MONEY INVOLVED IS UNCALCULABLE.
JANE, LET'S TALK ABOUT THE AMOUNT OF MONEY.
HOW MUCH MONEY IS INVOLVED?
AND HOW IS IT KIND OF DIVIDED BETWEEN WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE AND YOU'VE OBVIOUSLY MENTIONED THE CLIMATE AGENDA AND WE'RE GOING TO GET TO SOME OF THE FOSSIL FUEL PEOPLE WHO ARE GOING TO END UP BEFORE CONGRESS SOON.
THERE'S CLIMATE THAT'S BEING ATTACKED, THERE'S HEALTH, THERE'S TAX POLICY, THERE'S ALL THAT KIND OF STUFF.
CAN YOU SORT OF MAKE A DISTINCTION BETWEEN WHICH ONE IS STRONGER?HOW MUCH MONEY IS BEINO COUNTER EACH ONE OF THOSE?
CHRISTIANNE, HONESTLY I DON'T FEEL I AM IN A POSITION TO CALCULATE ALL OF IT.
PART OF IT IS THE SECRET SPENDING.
RIGHT.
ALSO THE MONEY THAT INFLUENCES AMERICAN POLITICS RIGHT NOW IS MONEY THAT GOES INTO THE NONPROFIT WORLD.
IT'S NOT JUST DIRECT CAMPAIGN DONATIONS AND LOBBYING, THAT'S THE SORT OF OBVIOUS MONEY.
WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT IS THE WHOLE SORT OF ECONOMIC CREATIVITY THAT CAPTURES POLITICS AND IT'S FUNDED BY THINK TANKS, THOUGHT GROUPS THAT LOOK LIKE IT'S LED BY THE GENERAL PUBLIC AND IT'S AN ECOSYSTEM OF ITS OWN RIGHT BUT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT MILLIONS AND MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF DOLLARS.
THAT'S JUST BANKING IN THE WAY OF PROFITS.
IF AMERICA MOVED OFF OF FOSSIL FUELS, IT WOULD BE -- YOU KNOW, SPELL A GRIM FUTURE FOR THE FOSSIL FUEL INDUSTRY.
THEY'VE GOT A LOT OF POWER.
YOU KNOW, IT'S REALLY -- WHEN YOU SAY THE MOST POWERFUL INDUSTRY WE'VE SEEN IN THE MODERN WORLD, IT REALLY HITS HOME AND IT MAKES US REALIZE HOW MUCH IS AT STAKE.
I WANT TO PLAY A SOUND BITE BY THIS GROUP, AMERICANS FOR AN ANTI-SPENDING AD.
IT'S THE GROUP THAT'S BACKED BY CHARLES AND JOE MANCHIN AS YOU MENTIONED.
LET'S PLAY THE SOUND BITE.
DID WE AGGRESSIVELY FIGHT AGAINST SOME OF THE SCIENCE?
YES.
DID WE HIDE OUR SCIENCE?
ABSOLUTELY NOT.
DID WE -- DID WE JOIN SOME OF THESE SHADOW GROUPS TO WORK AGAINST SOME OF THE EARLY EFFORTS?
YES, THAT'S TRUE.
BUT THERE'S NOTHING -- THERE'S NOTHING ILLEGAL ABOUT THAT.
YEAH.
JANE, I'M REALLY SORRY.
WE'RE KIND OF ALL OVER THE PLACE.
THAT WASN'T THE KOCH INDUSTRY, AMERICANS FOR PROSPERITY, THAT WAS KEITH McCOY WHO WAS A SENIOR DIRECTOR AT EXXON'S OFFICE.
THAT WAS A SECRET TAPING AND IT GOES TO THE HEART OF THAT AREA OF CONTROVERSY ABOUT WHAT THEY'VE DONE, AS WE SAID, IN THE INTRODUCTION TO TRY TO MOVE PEOPLE AWAY FROM, YOU KNOW, BIDEN'S KIND OF CLIMATE POLICIES INCLUDING MAKING THINGS UP.
NOW THE CEO, DARREN WOODS RESPONDED, WE CONDEMN THE STATEMENTS AND -- GO AHEAD, JANE.
GO AHEAD. NO, GO AHEAD.
FINISH WHAT YOU WERE SAYING.
I WAS GOING TO RESPOND TO THAT INCREDIBLY EXPLOSIVE TAPE.
DO FINISH.
GO ON THEN.
NO, I WANT YOU TO RESPOND TO THAT EXPLOSIVE TAPE BECAUSE THEN I'LL PLAY WHAT THE ACTUAL CURRENT CEO SAYS ABOUT IT.
OKAY.
I THINK WHAT WE SEE IN THAT TAPE THAT IS SO REVEALING AND THE REASON IT STRUCK SUCH A NERVE IS THAT YOU HEAR THE TOP LOBBYIST FOR EXXON MOBILE SAYING, YES, WE DID HIDE OUR HAND.
THE OTHER THING THAT HE'S SAYING IS HE'S REVEALING WHAT THEIR NEW STRATEGY IS.
THE BIG CORPORATE MONEY IS NO LONGER DENYING CLIMATE CHANGE IS REAL.
THEY'RE NOT EVEN DENYING IT'S MANMADE.
WHAT THEY'RE DOING IS WHAT HE SAYS IN THAT TAPE.
HE'S SAYING WE'RE PRETENDING WE'RE SUPPORTING SOLUTIONS, IN THIS CASE THE PRICE ON CARBON, AND WHAT HE'S SAYING IS THE REASON THAT THESE COMPANIES ARE SUPPORTING THESE SOLUTIONS IS THEY KNOW THAT A TAX ON CARBON IS NEVER GOING TO GO THROUGH SO THEY'VE MOVED FROM IT'S SORT OF MORE SUBTLE THAN IT USED TO BE.
THEY'VE MOVED FROM OUT AND OUT DENIAL TO SUPPORTING THINGS THAT MAKE THEM LOOK GOOD BUT THAT THEY KNOW ARE NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN.
AND SO IT'S A SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT PLAYBOOK IN WASHINGTON.
IT'S CYNICAL.
SOME PEOPLE CALL IT A GREEN SNAKE OIL OR GREEN WASHING.
THAT'S WHAT THESE BIG COMPANIES ARE DOING NOW.
THEY'RE COMING UP WITH SOLUTIONS THAT SOUND SO GREAT BUT THE HORIZON IS SO FAR OFF IN THE FUTURE FOR WHEN THEY SAY THEY'LL DELIVER AND IT'S SO HARD TO GET THERE THAT THEY KNOW IT WON'T REALLY MOVE US OFF OF FOSSIL FUELS AND THAT'S WHAT THEY'RE TRYING TO SORT OF DISTRACT WITH.
IT'S ACTUALLY, YOU KNOW, QUITE DEPRESSING.
LET ME JUST SAY WHAT THIS CURRENT CEO SAID ABOUT THAT.
HE SAID, WE CONDEMN THE STATEMENTS AND ARE DEEPLY APOLOGETIC ABOUT THEM INCLUDING INTERACTIONS WITH ELECTED THEY ARE ENTIRELY INCONSISTENT WITH THE WAY WE EXPECT OUR PEOPLE TO CONDUCT THEMSELVES.
WE ARE SHOCKED AND STAND BY OUR COMMITMENT TO WORK ON FINDING SOLUTIONS TO CLIMATE CHANGE.
LOOK, THAT'S WHAT HE SAYS BUT GIVEN WHAT YOU SAY, IS THAT JUST A COVER OR DO YOU THINK THE CURRENT CEO ACTUALLY BELIEVES THAT, ABOUT THAT SENIOR EXECUTIVE?
WELL, ALL YOU CAN SAY IS THAT KEITH McCOY WAS THE TOP LOBBIEST OF EXXONMOBILE IN WASHINGTON, IF THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT HE'S SAYING, HAVE YOU TO WONDER WHY.
SO WE'LL SEE.
IT WOULD BE WONDERFUL TO SEE REAL SOLUTIONS, REAL COMING TOGETHER.
THEY CAN DO IT TO SUPPORT BIDEN'S PLAN.
WHAT THEY'RE TRYING TO DO IS CRIPPLE IT AND THAT'S HAPPENING RIGHT NOW IN WASHINGTON.
SO, YOU KNOW, IT'S AN OPPORTUNITY TO SEE REAL PROGRESS.
THERE'S SERIOUS EFFORT TO MAKE PROGRESS. WOULD BE GREAT IF THEE COMPANIES WOULD GET ON BOARD.
SO DO YOU THINK THEY WILL MAKE PROGRESS OR THAT BIDEN'S CLIMATE PART WILL BE CRIPPLED?
AND I ASK YOU BECAUSE AS YOU KNOW ONE OF THE BIG THINGS EVERYBODY IS WAITING FOR IS NEXT MONTH CONGRESS WILL CALL LEADERS OF THE FOSSIL FUEL INDUSTRY TO TALK AND TO GRILL THEM, I PRESUME, ABOUT THIS ALLEGED DISINFORMATION CAMPAIGN.
WHAT DO YOU -- I GUESS HOW DO YOU THINK THAT WILL -- THAT WILL SHAPE UP?
BECAUSE REMEMBER WHEN THE TOBACCO INDUSTRY WAS CALLED AND THEY ALL STOOD IN LINE AND SWORE BLIND THEY DIDN'T KNOW, TOBACCO, NICOTINE WASN'T ADDICTIVE?
IN THE END IT WILL BE A BIG DEAL.
DO YOU IMAGINE THIS WILL BE THE SAME?
I DON'T REALLY KNOW.
I'M SURE THAT'S WHAT PEOPLE WHO ARE PLANNING THE HEARING ARE HOPING FOR AND I DON'T -- I DON'T KNOW WHETHER IT WILL PLAY THE SAME ROLE.
I THINK IT HAS TO BE PROGRESS IN ORDER TO -- I THINK IT'S A GOOD THING TO TRY TO PUT THE INDUSTRY ON THE SPOT ABOUT THE DISINFORMATION CAMPAIGN THAT IT HAS BEEN FUNDING FOR SO MANY THIS GOES BACK TO AT LEAST 1991.
SO YOU HAVE 30 YEARS OF THIS KIND OF DISINFORMATION AND IT'S REALLY CHANGED AND CONFUSED PUBLIC OPINION IN THIS COUNTRY ABOUT CLIMATE CHANGE.
IT'S VERY MUCH CAPTURED CONGRESS AND THE REPUBLICAN PARTY AND AS YOU MENTIONED, A COUPLE MEMBERS OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY AS WELL.
IT CAN ONLY BE GOOD TO TRY TO PUT THEM ON THE SPOT AND GET SOME ANSWERS OUT OF THEM.
THEY'RE GOOD AT WRANGLING OFF THE HOOK THOUGH.
WE'VE ALL SEEN THAT OVER THE YEARS SO I DON'T KNOW IF IT WILL REALLY PIN THEM DOWN OR NOT, BUT IT'S GOOD TO GIVE THEM A TRY.
AND LET ME ASK YOU A FINAL QUESTION ON THIS, AND THAT IS OBVIOUSLY THE LOBBYISTS AND BIDEN CONTINUING, HE SAID IT EVEN TODAY, THAT HE'S HE THINKS THIS BIG AGENDA WILL PASS.
THIS IS WHAT HE SAID ABOUT THE PROCESS.
SOME BIG CORPORATIONS ARE SPENDING MILLIONS OF DOLLARS, AND LEGITIMATELY.
I MEAN, THEY'RE LOBBYING, TO TRY TO ESCAPE THEIR OBLIGATION FOR THE TASKS THEY OWE.
SOMEBODY'S GOT TO PAY.
AND WHEN THOSE WHO CAN AFFORD TO PAY AREN'T PAYING ANYWHERE NEAR THEIR FAIR SHARE, IT MEANS Y'ALL DO THIS.
THIS HAS WORKED IN THE PAST.
THIS ISN'T ABOUT ME.
THIS IS ABOUT THE TAX POLICY, NOT NECESSARILY THE CLIMATE POLICY.
IS HE RIGHT TO BE OPTIMISTIC ON THAT ONE?
WELL, I -- YOU KNOW, THEY ARE WHAT YOU'VE REALLY GOT IS A PRESIDENT WHO IS TRYING TO PUSH BACK ON SOME OF THE MOST POWERFUL INDUSTRIES, THE RICHEST INDUSTRIES IN THE COUNTRY.
MY GUESS IS THIS WILL MAKE PROGRESS.
MY QUESTION IS ON THE PROGRESS IS THERE A LOT OF FOOT DRAGGING, DISINFORMATION IF IT'S GOING TO OFF SET THE IRREPARABLE HARM.
I THINK THEY WILL MAKE SOME PROGRESS, I JUST DON'T KNOW IF IT WILL BE ENOUGH FAST ENOUGH.
ALWAYS GOOD TO HAVE YOU ON.
THANK YOU FOR JOINING US TONIGHT.
> FINALLY, LET US HEAR THOSE FIGHTING THE PANDEMIC BY ALL MEANS.
IT WENT TO TWO SCIENTISTS.
IT IS AN EXTRAORDINARY ACHIEVEMENT FOR THE DR. DREW WEIS MAN.
THEIR PARTNERSHIP HAPPENED AFTER A CHANCE MEETING AT A COPIER.
AUSTRALIAN TEENAGERS JACK WESLEY AND DARCY HAVE COME OUT AS THE CREATORS OF ONE OF THEIR NATION'S TOP CRACKING WEBSITE.
SOME HOBBY.
REMEMBER YOU CAN FOLLOW ME AND OUR SHOW ON TWITTER.
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