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>>> HELLO, EVERYONE.
WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY."
HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.
ISRAEL APPROACHES ONE FULL YEAR OF WAR AS THE CONFLICT EXPANDS TO LEBANON AND PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU ADDRESSES THE U.N.
THE DIPLOMATIC CORRESPONDENT JOINS THE SHOW TO DISCUSS THE WORSENING SITUATION AND RECOUNTS THE HORRORS HE EXPERIENCED ON OCTOBER 7th IN HIS NEW BOOK, "THE GATES OF GAZA."
>> I THINK THE TALIBAN HAVE THIS ABOUT THE EDUCATED WOMAN.
THE MORE INDEPENDENT A WOMAN BECOMES, IT IS A THREAT.
>> THE FIGHT FOR WOMEN'S RIGHTS IN AFGHANISTAN.
CHRISTIANE SPEAKS TO THE LEGENDARY ACTRESS MERYL STREEP ABOUT THE DOCUMENTARY, THE SHARP EDGE OF PEACE.
ALONG WITH BECAUSE THEA KOOFI AND DR. HABIBA SARABI.
ALSO AHEAD -- >> I SPENT DAYS CRYING SO HARD, MY EYES SWELLED SHUT.
>> SHE SPOKE OUT AGAINST BOOK BANS.
THEN THE DEATH THREATS STARTED.
WE SPOKE TO THE NATIONAL AWARD WINNING LIBRARIAN ABOUT HER BOOK, "THE LIBRARIAN: THE FIGHT AGAINST BOOK BANNING IN AMERICA."
>>> "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.
JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WEIR.
THE SYLVIA A.
AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM.
THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.
MARK J. BLECHNER.
THE FILOMEN D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION.
SETON J. MELVIN.
THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND.
CHARLES ROSENBLUM.
KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN.
COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.
BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, AND JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS.
>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
I'M SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMMANPOUR.
HUGE PLUMES OF SMOKE WERE SEEN RISING FROM THE DENSELY POPULATED NEIGHBORHOOD.
SEVERAL BUILDINGS FLATTENED IN THE STRIKE.
JOMANA KARADSHEH JOINS US FROM BEIRUT.
JEREMY DIAMOND JOINS US FROM NORTHERN ISRAEL.
LET'S BEGIN WITH JOMANA.
THIS HAPPENED OVER THE LAST HOUR AND 15 MINUTES OR SO.
CNN CAN NOW CONFIRM THAT THE TARGET WAS HASSAN NASRALLAH.
TELL US WHAT WAS ON THE MINDS OF CIVILIANS AROUND THE LOCATION OF THE STRIKE WITH THE HUGE PLUMES OF SMOKE WE'VE SEEN ON TELEVISION.
>> WELL, YOU KNOW, SPEAKING TO PEOPLE HERE, THEY SAY THAT THIS WAS THE BIGGEST ISRAELI STRIKE OB ON BEIRUT.
SEVERAL CITIES AND RESIDENTS FELT SINCE 2006, SINCE THAT WAR BETWEEN ISRAEL AND HEZBOLLAH.
THE TEAM WAS ON THE ROOF.
WE FELT OUR WHOLE BUILDING SHAKE.
IT WAS MASSIVE EXPLOSIONS.
AND THEN WE SAW THE THICK PLUME OF SMOKE RISING FROM SOUTHERN BEIRUT SUBURBS WHERE YOU DO HAVE A HEZBOLLAH PRESENCE THERE.
THE LEADERS ARE KNOWN TO HAVE BEEN BASED.
THIS IS ALSO A HEAVILY, DENSELY POPULATED PART OF THE COUNTRY.
ONE OF THE MOST IN LEBANON.
AND ACCORDING TO THE LEBANESE STATE NEWS AGENCY, THEY SAY NOW THAT AT LEAST SIX BUILDINGS HAVE BEEN REDUCED TO RUBBLE, AND YOU KNOW, CONSIDERING THE INTENSITY OF THAT STRIKE THAT WE FELT AND WE WITNESSED HERE, THAT IS REALLY NOT SURPRISING.
CLEARLY HERE, FROM WHAT WE CAN SEE, THAT THIS WAS LARGE MUNITIONS THAT WERE USED IN THAT STRIKE.
I CAN TELL YOU THAT THERE IS REAL APPREHENSION RIGHT NOW IN THE CITY AS MY COLLEAGUE WAS SAYING AS WE HEARD THE REPORTS, AND AS WE HEARD JEREMY CONFIRMING FROM AN ISRAELI OFFICIAL, THAT THE TARGET OF THAT STRIKE WAS HEZBOLLAH LEADER HASSAN NASRALLAH.
OUR COLLEAGUE SAYING THAT THIS IS A DOOMSDAY SCENARIO.
THAT MANY IN LEBANON HAVE FEARED FOR A VERY LONG TIME.
DANGEROUS ESCALATION DOES NOT BEGIN TO DESCRIBE THE SITUATION.
>> LET'S GO TO JEREMY DIAMOND.
WE HEARD FROM JOMANA JUST HAVING WITNESSED THE SHEER SIZE AND MAGNITUDE OF THIS STRIKE.
WE HEARD THE ADMIRAL, THE SPOKESPERSON FOR THE IDF MAKE AN ANNOUNCEMENT SHORTLY AFTER THE STRIKE.
IT WAS BRIEF, IT WAS CONCISE.
HE DIDN'T TAKE ANY QUESTIONS BUT HE MADE CLEAR THAT ISRAEL WAS TARGETING THE CENTRAL HEADQUARTERS, THE COMMAND AND CONTROL CENTER OF HEZBOLLAH THERE.
THAT WAS THEIR TARGET.
OBVIOUSLY WE CAN NOW CONFIRM THAT HASSAN NASRALLAH AND PERHAPS THOSE AROUND HIM WERE WHO THEY WERE TARGETING IN THAT COMMAND AND CONTROL CENTER.
WE HAVE NO INDICATION YET AS TO WHETHER OR NOT ANY OF THEM WERE IN FACT KILLED.
>> AT THIS POINT, MY SOURCES DO NOT HAVE ANY INDICATION OF WHETHER OR NOT THE STRIKE WAS SUCCESSFUL IN TERMS OF TAKING OUT HASSAN NASRALLAH.
WHAT IS CLEAR, AS JOMANA WAS JUST SAYING, THAT MULTIPLE BUILDINGS WERE DESTROYED IN THIS STRIKE.
A VERY LARGE PLUME OF SMOKE.
AND GIVEN THE FACT THAT THE ISRAELI MILITARY SAYS THEIR TARGET WAS AN UNDERGROUND CONTROL AND COMMAND CENTER, THE CENTRAL HEADQUARTERS OF HEZBOLLAH, ACCORDING TO THE ISRAELI MILITARY, THAT WOULD VERY STRONGLY SUGGEST THE LIKELY USE OF SOME VERY HEAVY MUNITIONS.
WE HAVE SEEN, OF COURSE, IN GAZA, WHEN THE ISRAELI MILITARY HAS GONE UNDER UNDERGROUND TARGETS, THEY FREQUENTLY USED THE 2,000-POUND BOMBS WHICH LEAVE JUST AN ENORMOUS CRATER IN THEIR WAKE.
THEY'RE DESIGNED TO PENETRATE DEEP UNDERGROUND.
THE RESULT OF THEM IN ADDITION TO GOING AFTER THE UNDERGROUND TARGETS, IS THAT THEY OFTEN KILL AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF PEOPLE ABOVEGROUND AS WELL.
AS WE ARE SEEING REPORTS OF SEVERAL BUILDINGS, SIX, ACCORDING TO THE LEBANESE STATE NEWS AGENCY, THAT HAVE BEEN FLATTENED IN THIS STRIKE, THAT INDICATES A VERY, VERY HIGH DEATH TOLL HERE AND LIKELY, MANY OF THOSE DEAD ARE LIKELY TO BE CIVILIANS.
SO THAT PUTS US, OF COURSE, BEYOND THE HUMAN, THE DEVASTATING HUMAN TOLL THAT WE ARE LIKELY TO SEE PLAY OUT ON THE GROUND.
IT ALSO PUTS US AT A VERY DANGEROUS MOMENT ONCE AGAIN IN THIS REGION.
WE HAVE SEEN OVER THE COURSE OF THE LAST WEEK, AS THE ISRAEL MILITARY HAS VERY INTENTIONALLY SOUGHT TO ESCALATE THIS CONFLICT OF GOING ONE WRUNG UP THE LADDER AFTER THE NEXT, WITH THE GOAL OF GETTING HEZBOLLAH TO STOP ITS ROCKET ATTACKS ON NORTHERN ISRAEL.
THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT BELIEVES THAT THIS STRATEGY CAN GET HEZBOLLAH TO RECALCULATE THEIR DECISION TO FIRE THOSE ROCKETS AS THEY HAVE BEEN SAYING IN SOLIDARITY WITH THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE IN GAZA TO TRY TO DECOUPLE THOSE TWO FRONTS.
FOR NOW, THOUGH, ALL IT HAS RESULTED IN IS HEZBOLLAH RATCHETING UP ITS ATTACKS ON ISRAEL AS WELL AS FIRING THE FIRST BALLISTIC MISSILE TOWARD THE CITY OF TEL AVIV IN CENTRAL ISRAEL EARLIER THIS WEEK, ALBEIT ONE THAT WAS INTERCEPTED BY THE ISRAEL MILITARY.
>> JEREMY DIAMOND, THANK YOU SO MUCH.
FAWAZ GERGES JOINS US NOW.
THANK YOU FOR JOINING US DURING THIS BREAKING NEWS THAT WE'VE BEEN COVERING.
A SENIOR ISRAELI OFFICIAL TELLS ME THE GOAL IS CLEAR.
WE WANT 60,000 ISRAELIS TO GO HOME AND NOT JUST GO HOME BUT BE SAFE.
MY QUESTION TO YOU, GIVEN THE ESCALATION THAT WE'VE NOW SEEN OVER THE COURSE OF THE LAST SEVERAL WEEKS, AND OBVIOUSLY TODAY, THE TARGETED ASSASSINATION OF HASSAN NASRALLAH, DO YOU THINK ISRAEL HAS COME CLOSER TO ACCOMPLISHING THAT GOAL?
>> FAR FROM IT.
THE AMERICANS, THE BRITISH, THE FRENCH, THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY HAS MADE IT VERY CLEAR TO BENJAMIN NETANYAHU AND HIS GOVERNMENT THAT IF THEY ARE SERIOUS ABOUT RETURNING, THE 65,000 DISPLACED ISRAELI PEOPLE TO THEIR HOMES, THE ONLY WAY OUT IS A DIPLOMATIC SOLUTION.
WHAT ISRAEL HAS CHOSEN IS ALL-OUT WAR.
JUST TO REALLY SAY A FEW WORDS ABOUT THE MASSIVE ESCALATION IN THE PAST ONE HOUR, REGARDLESS OF WHETHER HASSAN NASRALLAH IS KILLED OR NOT, MY READING, AND I HOPE I AM WRONG, THIS IS THE TIPPING POINT.
THIS IS THE SPARK THAT WILL MOST LIKELY TRIGGER ALL-OUT WAR.
YOU WILL SEE IN THE NEXT DAY OR SO, THIS IS IT.
HEZBOLLAH WILL RETALIATE STRATEGICALLY AND THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT BENJAMIN NETANYAHU HAS BEEN GUNNING FOR.
HE WANTS REALLY A JUSTIFICATION TO REALLY GO TO LAUNCH A GROUND INVASION, AND A GROUND INVASION WILL BE REALLY A LONG WAR.
A MUCH LONGER WAR THAN THE WAR IN GAZA.
IT WILL LIKE LIVING LAST FOR A DECADE.
IT WILL COME TO HAUNT THE ISRAELI ARMY IN THE SAME WAY THAT AFGHANISTAN AND IRAQ HAUNTED THE AMERICAN ARMY FOR 20 YEARS, EVEN THOUGH THERE IS NO COMPARISON BETWEEN AMERICA AS THE MOST POWERFUL NATION AND ISRAEL AS A MIDDLE POWER.
>> AND THE LAST WAR, WE SHOULD REMIND VIEWERS BETWEEN ISRAEL AND HEZBOLLAH IN 2006 LASTED FOR 34 DAYS.
NEITHER SIDE TRULY BEING ABLE TO CLAIM VICTORY IN THAT WAR.
I'M JUST CURIOUS, IN THE EARLY DAYS FOLLOWING OCTOBER 7th AND OCTOBER 8th IS WHEN HEZBOLLAH BEGAN LAUNCHING MISSILES INTO ISRAEL, THERE WERE SOME IN THE ISRAELI SECURITY ESTABLISHMENT INCLUDING THE DEFENSE MINISTER WHO WERE ARGUING AND PUSHING FOR THE OPENING OF A SECOND FRONT TO GO INTO, BEFORE EVEN GOING INTO GAZA, ACTUALLY, GOING INTO SOUTHERN LEBANON.
THE U.S. SAID THEY WANTED NO PART OF THAT AND STRONGLY URGED ISRAEL NOT TO DO THAT.
AND PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU DID AS WELL.
WHAT DO YOU THINK HAS SHIFTED AT THIS POINT IF YOU DO BELIEVE HE DOES NOW WANT TO GO FOR A FULL-ON WAR?
>> WHAT HAS SHIFTED IS BECAUSE HE REALLY HAS NOT ACHIEVED THE TOTAL VICTORY IN GAZA.
THERE'S BASICALLY A STALEMATE IN GAZA.
HE REPEATED THE SAME THING IN THE UNITED NATIONS TODAY.
HE WANTS TOTAL VICTORY.
HE WANTS HAMAS TO SURRENDER.
WHAT HE REALLY MEANS IS HE IS SAYING NO TO THE AMERICANS AND THE EGYPTIAN HOSTAGE DEAL PROPOSALS, AND REALLY, BY GOING TO THE NORTHERN FRONT, I THINK HE IS DIVERTING ATTENTION FROM GAZA.
WHAT BENJAMIN NETANYAHU DOES NOT REALLY WANT A HOSTAGE DEAL WITH HAMAS.
HE WANTS HAMAS TO SURRENDER.
HE WANTS TOTAL VICTORY OVER HAMAS.
HERE IS HE THE PROBLEM FOR BENJAMIN NETANYAHU.
LEBANON IS NOT GAZA.
HEZBOLLAH IS NOT HAMAS.
HEZBOLLAH IS TEN TIMES, IF NOT HUNDREDS OF TIMES MORE POWERFUL THAN HAMAS.
AND IF AND WHEN ISRAEL LAUNCHES ITS WAR, YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TENS OF THOUSANDS OF SKILLED FIGHTERS MIGRATING TO LEBANON, FROM SYRIA, FROM IRAQ, AND FROM IRAN, EVEN IF IRAN DOES NOT REALLY JOIN THE FRAY.
THIS WILL BE A LONG WAR.
LOGICALLY AND RATIONALLY, ONE WOULD HAVE EXPECTED ISRAELI LEADERS TO HAVE LEARNED THE LESSONS, THE LESSONS OF HISTORY, OF 1982 AND 2006.
BUT OBVIOUSLY, IRRATIONALITY IS AS IMPORTANT AS RATIONALITY IN POLITICS AND TRULY, I'M NOT EXAGGERATING, BENJAMIN NETANYAHU IS AIMING FOR A FOREVER WAR.
ISRAEL, AND I'M NOT EXAGGERATING.
ISRAEL WILL NEVER, NEVER HAVE PEACE AND SECURITY IF IT AIMS FOR A GROUND INVASION OF LEBANON.
IT WILL DESTROY THE INFRASTRUCTURE IN LEBANON.
BUT THIS WAR CAN NEVER BE WON MILITARILY, AS THE AMERICANS, AS THE AMERICANS HAVE IMPRESSED ON NETANYAHU AND THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT FOR THE PAST TEN MONTHS.
BUT THEY HAVE FAILED TO USE LEVERAGE IN ORDER TO REALLY NUDGE NETANYAHU TO ACCEPT A HOSTAGE DEAL IN GAZA AND NOW A CEASE-FIRE IN LEBANON.
>> THE IDEA HAS STRESSED THAT IT HAS DEGRADED THE POSSIBILITIES WHILE NOT COMPARING WHAT THEY ARE CAPABLE TO, AS YOU JUST DID, TO HAMAS.
IN THEY HAVE TENS OF THOUSANDS OF ROCKETS STILL AT THEIR READY.
BUT GIVEN THAT WE NOW KNOW THE TARGET WAS NASRALLAH, IF HE WERE ASSASSINATED, AND WE'VE SEEN A NUMBER OF COMMANDERS ASSASSINATED OVER THE LAST WEEK AND A HALF, WHAT DOES THAT DO IN TERMS OF STABILITY AND LEADERSHIP FOR HEZBOLLAH?
>> LOOK, ISRAEL HAS DELIVERED SOME VERY HEAVY PSYCHOLOGICAL AND OPERATIONAL BLURS AGAINST HEZBOLLAH.
EVEN HASSAN NASRALLAH HAS ACKNOWLEDGED THIS.
HE SAID WE HAVE SUFFERED SEVERAL MAJOR BLOWS HITTING TOP COMMANDERS.
THE EXPLOSION, THE COMMUNICATION EXPLOSIONS, THOUSANDS OF THE RANK AND FILE HAVE BEEN INJURED AND NEUTRALIZED.
OBVIOUSLY, ISRAEL HAS INFILTRATED THE COMMUNICATIONS SYSTEM OF HEZBOLLAH.
BUT LET'S NOT -- HEZBOLLAH IS NOT JUST, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT A SYMMETRICAL WARFARE.
HEZBOLLAH HAS BETWEEN 20,000 AND 50,000 ACTIVE FIGHTERS.
100,000 RESERVISTS.
HEZBOLLAH IS DEEPLY ENTRENCH IN THE A SYMMETRICAL WAR, AS THE UNITED STATES HAS LEARNED THE HARD WAY DURING THE WAR ON TERROR.
YOU CAN NEVER, NEVER WIN.
THINK OF WHAT REALLY HAS DONE IN THE PAST 12 MONTHS IN GAZA.
THEY HAVE DESTROYED THE GAZA STRIP.
YOU HAVE HAMAS CONTINUES TO FIGHT.
IT HAS MOVED INTO A GUERRILLA WARFARE.
LEBANON IS AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT THING BECAUSE LEBANON IS AN OPEN FRONT.
YOU HAVE BORDERS WITH SYRIA AND IRAQ AND IRAN MIGHT BRING MAJOR SUPPLIES.
THIS IS WHY THE AMERICANS ARE REALLY TRYING TO SAVE ISRAEL FROM ITSELF, FROM BENJAMIN NETANYAHU'S ESCALATION.
AS HE SAID JUST TWO HOURS AGO AT THE UNITED NATIONS, HE IS WINNING.
HE IS WINNING.
THAT REALLY MEANS THAT NO CEASE-FIRE, NO DE-ESCALATION, I FEAR.
AND I HOPE I AM WRONG.
THE NEXT FEW DAYS AND MONTHS, PROBABLY THE NEXT FEW YEARS, WILL BE CATASTROPHIC.
MAINLY FOR THE PALESTINIANS AND THE LEBANESE BUT ALSO FOR THE ISRAELIS AS WELL.
>> AND WE NOW KNOW THAT PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU HAS CUT SHORT HIS NEW YORK TRIP TO RETURN TO ISRAEL FOLLOWING THIS NEWS.
THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.
AMIR TIBON IS A DIPLOMATIC CORRESPONDENT FROM HAARETZ.
HE JOINS US FROM NEW YORK.
WE BOOKED YOU TO TALK ABOUT YOUR VERY COMPELLING BOOK, "THE GATES OF GAZA," ABOUT WHAT YOUR FAMILY WENT THROUGH ON OCTOBER 7th PASS ONE-YEAR ANNIVERSARY APPROACH.
YOUR OWN FAMILY, YOUR FATHER HAD TO RESCUE YOU FROM THE KIBBUTZ AS IT WAS ATTACKED.
WE'LL GET TO THAT IN A MOMENT.
I HAVE TO ASK BUT THE BREAKING NEWS THIS HOUR.
PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU CUTTING HIS TRIP TO NEW YORK SHORT, HEADING BACK TO ISRAEL UPON THIS NEWS OF THE IDF TARGETING HASSAN NASRALLAH.
WE HAVE YET TO KNOW WHETHER OR NOT HE WAS ASSASSINATED.
YOUR REACTION.
>> YEAH.
WE'RE TRYING TO GATHER INFORMATION.
RIGHT NOW, WHAT WE'RE HEARING IS A BIT OF A CONTRAST FROM SOURCES IN ISRAEL THAT SOUND CAUTIOUSLY OPTIMISTIC ABOUT THIS BUT NOTHING OFFICIAL YET.
JUST SOME RUMORS MASQUERADED AS BRIEFINGS TO REPORTERS, IF THAT'S THE WAY I CAN PUT IT.
AND THEN A MIRROR PICTURE OF THAT COMING FROM A LITTLE BIT OF THE LEBANESE MEDIA AND THE ARAB WORLD THAT ARE NOW REPORTING BASED ON THEIR SOURCES THAT NASRALLAH WAS NOT KILLED.
I THINK WE SHOULD ALL BE A LITTLE PATIENT HERE AND WAIT FOR SOMETHING MORE AUTHORITATIVE TO EMERGE.
IT IS CLEAR HE WAS THE TARGET.
IT IS CLEAR IF HE WAS THERE BASED ON THE PICTURES AND THE MAGNITUDE OF THE DINE MATE THAT EXPLODED OVER THERE, THAT THE CHANCES TO SURVIVE SUCH AN ATTACK ARE NOT HIGH.
BUT I THINK IT IS NOT A COINCIDENCE THAT WE ARE NOT GETTING ANY OFFICIAL STATEMENT FROM EITHER SIDE RIGHT NOW, WHETHER THIS ISRAELI STRIKE SUCCEEDED IN ELIMINATING NASRALLAH WHICH WOULD BE ISRAEL'S REALLY GREATEST ACHIEVEMENT IN THIS ONGOING BATTLE WITH HEZBOLLAH THAT WE'VE BEEN LIVING THROUGH FOR ALMOST A YEAR NOW, SINCE THEY BEGAN FIRING ON ISRAEL ON OCTOBER 8, OR WHETHER IT DID NOT SUCCEED, AND THEN A BIG QUESTION COULD BE, WHAT WILL HEZBOLLAH DO IN RETALIATION?
>> AND THAT IS YET TO BE DETERMINED.
A LOT OF THIS LYING IN WHETHER OR NOT HASSAN NASRALLAH WAS INDEED ASSASSINATED HERE.
THE IDF'S CASE THAT THEY'RE TRYING TO PORTRAY TO THE WORLD IS THAT THIS IS THEIR WAY OF ESCALATING TO DE-ESCALATE TO AVOID ANOTHER LARGE-SCALE GROUND WAR.
DO YOU THINK THIS IS AN EFFECTIVE STRATEGY IN TERMS OF GETTING THERE?
IN TERMS OF AVOIDING WHAT WE SAW IN 2006?
>> WELL, IT'S A LITTLE TOO EARLY TO JUDGE BUT IT IS SURELY A HIGH-RISK STRATEGY.
IF IT WORKS, THEN BASICALLY, YOU WOULD SEE HEZBOLLAH ACCEPTING THE ISRAELI DEMAND TO DETACH THE LEBANESE ARENA FROM WHAT'S HAPPENING IN GAZA.
LET'S SAY THAT, YOU KNOW, JUST JUDGING ON THE MERITS, THE ISRAELI DEMANDS MAKES A LOT OF SENSE.
ISRAEL DID NOT ATTACK HAMAS.
HAMAS ATTACKED ISRAEL.
AFTER OCTOBER 7th, ISRAEL, LIKE ANY OTHER COUNTRY WOULD DO, CLOSE TO RETALIATE AND STRIKE BACK AT HAMAS AND GAZA.
AND THAT'S WHEN HEZBOLLAH COMPLETELY WITHOUT ANY JUSTIFICATION ON THEIR BEHALF, BEGAN TO ATTACK ISRAEL.
WASN'T LIKE ISRAEL FIRST OF ALL WENT AFTER HEZBOLLAH IN LEBANON.
SO WHAT THE ISRAELI SIDE HAS BEEN SAYING ALL THIS TIME IS, WE DON'T ACCEPT THIS LINKAGE THAT NASRALLAH HAD CREATED THAT HE'S GOING TO FIRE ON ISRAEL AS LONG AS THE WAR IN GAZA CONTINUES.
AND IF THIS ISRAELI STRATEGY WERE TO PROVE ITSELF, WE WOULD SEE STOPPING THE FIGHTING IN LEBANON REGARDLESS OF WHAT HAPPENS IN GAZA.
BUT THERE IS A RISK THAT THIS TRAGEDY COULD ALSO LEAD TO THE OPPOSITE RESULT WHICH IS HEZBOLLAH CONTINUING AND INTENSIFYING ITS ATTACKS AND PERHAPS IRAN JOINING AS WELL BECAUSE OF THE AMOUNT OF THE HITS OF HEZBOLLAH, A VERY IMPORTANT PROJECT FOR THE IRANIAN REGIME, HAS BEEN TAKING IN THE LAST FEW WEEKS.
>> AND EVEN ACKNOWLEDGING THE SIGNIFICANT BLOW THAT THE LAST FEW WEEKS HAS BEEN ON HEZBOLLAH.
BUT AMIR, JUST IN TERMS OF WHAT WE SAW AND HEARD FROM FAWAS SAYING IN HIS FEW, BENJAMIN NETANYAHU WANTS AN ENDLESS WAR.
HE'S NOT THE ONLY ONE SAYING THIS.
MANY ISRAELIS SAY WHETHER IT IS THE WAR IN GAZA AND PERHAPS OPENING A NEW FRONT IN THE NORTH, THIS IS HIS WAY OF REMAINING IN POWER.
IT IS A VERY CYNICAL VIEW, BUT I'M WONDERING FROM AN ISRAELI PERSPECTIVE, ARE THE MAJORITY OF ISRAELIS, ARE THEY WILLING TO SEE ANOTHER FULL-ON WAR IN THE NORTH AT THIS POINT?
ARE THEY PREPARED?
>> I THINK WHAT THE MAJORITY OF ISRAELIS WANT IS A SOLUTION TO TWO ISSUES.
ONE OF THEM IS THE RETURN OF OUR HOSTAGES FROM GAZA WHERE WE STILL HAVE 100 PEOPLE IN THE HANDS OF THE ENEMY.
DOZENS OF THEM CONSIDERED TO BE ALIVE.
AND A SAFE RETURN TO THEIR HOMES OF TENS OF THOUSANDS OF ISRAELIS WHO HAVE BEEN FORCED TO EVACUATE FROM THE BORDER WITH LEBANON DUE TO THE ATTACKS.
IF THOSE TWO ISSUES CAN BE ACHIEVED VIA DIPLOMATIC SOLUTION THAT WOULD INCLUDE THE RELEASE OF THE HOSTAGES IN GAZA AND HEZBOLLAH WITHDRAWING FROM THE BORDER WITH ISRAEL, MOVING NORTH INTO LEBANON AND THEN GIVING A SENSE OF SECURITY TO THE ISRAELIS LIVING IN THE NORTH TO COME BACK TO THEIR HOMES, THEN I THINK THE VAST MAJORITY WOULD WANT TO ACHIEVE A WAR.
THE SECOND GOAL, THE RETURN OF THE PEOPLE TO THEIR HOMES WOULD BE VERY COSTLY IF IT INVOLVES THE GROUND INVASION.
THERE COULD BE A LOT OF SOLDIERS KILLED IN THIS WAR AND IN ISRAEL, THIS MEANS THAT THIS WILL TOUCH ON EVERYBODY.
SO A WAR IS NOT A GOOD CHOICE.
IT MAY BE A NECESSITY IF THERE IS NO OTHER WAY, AND WE ARE SEEING THIS EFFORT LED BY FRANCE AND THE UNITED STATES AND OTHER COUNTRIES TO TRY TO FIND THIS HOLY GRAIL, THAT IN ONE STROKE WOULD END THE WAR IN GAZA, RELEASE THE HOSTAGES, AND END THE FIGHTING IN THE NORTH.
AND FROM THE ISRAELI SIDE, THAT WOULD HAVE TO INCLUDE SOME SORT OF WITHDRAWAL FROM THE BORDER LINE.
OTHERWISE, PEOPLE WILL BE ASKED TO GO BACK TO A REALITY IN WHICH HEZBOLLAH IS WATCHING OVER THEIR HOMES AND PREPARING TO ATTACK THEM AND THIS IS SOMETHING THAT IS UNACCEPTABLE.
>> THAT'S HEZBOLLAH UPHOLDING ITS END OF THE BARGAIN.
IF THEY WOULD REMAIN NORTH OF THE RIVER.
>> THEY WOULD HAVE TO IMPLEMENT IT.
>> YES.
>> SPEECHES AND DECISIONS FROM EVERYBODY IS EASY.
THE QUESTION IS THE ACTION.
>> THAT BRINGS ME TO YOUR BOOK AND YOUR PERSONAL STORY.
IT IS ALL INTERTWINED IN SOME RESPECT.
YOU WERE LIVING AT YOUR KIBBUTZ ABOUT A OF HAD A MILE FROM THE GAZA BORDER ON OCTOBER 7th WHEN YOUR SMALL COMMUNITY, 450 OR SO RESIDENTS WERE ATTACKED BY OVER 100 HAMAS TERRORISTS.
YOUR HOME WAS ATTACKED.
YOU AND YOUR WIFE AND YOUR TWO YOUNG DAUGHTERS WERE HIDING IN YOUR SAFE ROOM UNTIL YOUR FATHER, A FORMER GENERAL IN THE IDF, ACTUALLY DROVE FOR HOURS WITH YOUR MOTHER TO RESCUE YOU.
IT IS AN INCREDIBLE STORY THAT YOU DETAIL QUITE BRILLIANTLY AND CAPTIVATING AS A READ A IN AND OF ITSELF.
WHAT YOU'VE DONE DIFFERENTLY IN THIS NARRATIVE IS THAT YOU'VE ALSO CONNECTED IT TO THE HISTORY OF THE KIBBUTZ ITSELF.
THE KIBBUTZIM ACROSS ISRAEL.
AND THAT PROJECT GOING BACK TO ITS ORIGIN IN THE EARLY 1950s.
WHY DID YOU DECIDE TO TELL THE STORY THIS WAY?
>> WELL, EMERGING FROM THE TRAGEDY OF OCTOBER 7th, AND WHAT HAPPENED SPECIFICALLY IN MY COMMUNITY, THE KIBBUTZ, YOU CAN LOOK IT A LIKE A SMALL TOWN OR VILLAGE.
I'M PART OF A COMMUNITY WHERE 450 PEOPLE WERE LIVING ON OCTOBER 7th, AND 15, 1-5, WERE MURDERED ON THAT DAY.
THAT'S 3% OF THE POPULATION.
TRY TO IMAGINE A VILLAGE OR A SMALL TOWN IN THIS COUNTRY LOSING 3% OF ITS POPULATION IN SUCH VIOLENT, TERRIBLE CIRCUMSTANCES IN ONE DAY.
AND ON TOP OF THAT, 7 OF OUR PEOPLE WERE TAKEN HOSTAGE.
KIDNAPPED INTO GAZA.
THANK GOD, FIVE, ALL THE WOMEN AND THE GIRLS, WERE RELEASED IN NOVEMBER THANKS TO THE HOSTAGE DEAL ORCHESTRATED BY PRESIDENT BIDEN IN THE EARLY WEEKS OF THE WAR.
AND WE STILL HAVE TWO FRIENDS IN THE HANDS OF THE ENEMY AS WE SPEAK, FATHERS OF YOUNG CHILDREN.
AND I FELT I HAD TO WRITE THIS STORY AND TO WRITE IT FIRST OF ALL IN ENGLISH TO AN INTERNATIONAL AUDIENCE.
I WANTED TO TELL THE WORLD WHAT HAPPENED TO US THAT DAY.
THEN I REALIZED I HAD TO TELL THE READERS OF THE BOOK, NOT JUST WHAT HAPPENED BUT WHERE IT HAPPENED AND WHO ARE THE PEOPLE THAT IT HAPPENED TO.
AND THAT'S WHY I DECIDED TO WRITE THE BOOK WITH THESE TWO PARALLEL TIME LINES.
THE TIME LINE OF OCTOBER 7th THAT BEGINS AT 6:30 IN THE MORNING WHEN A BARRAGE OF MORTARS IS LAUNCHED AT MY NEIGHBORHOOD.
AND THE TIME LINE OF THE HISTORY OF OUR COMMUNITY, STARTING FROM ITS FOUNDATIONS IN THE EARLY YEARS OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL AND THROUGH THE HISTORY OF THE KIBBUTZ, I ALSO TRIED TO TELL THE HISTORY OF GAZA.
IT IS A HISTORY OF WAR BUT ALSO ATTEMPTS FOR PEACE AND A HISTORY OF ENMITY BUT ALSO NEIGHBORLY RELATIONS.
I TRIED TO TELL THAT ALL IN THE BOOK.
THE TWO TIME LINES IN THE END OF THE BOOK CONVERGE WHEN THE HISTORY ARRIVES AT OCTOBER 7th.
>> IT IS A FANTASTIC READ.
THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.
WE REALLY APPRECIATE IT.
>> THANK YOU.
LET'S DO EVERYTHING WE CAN TO GET OUR PEOPLE BACK, GET A DEAL AND BRING THEM BACK ALIVE.
THIS IS WHAT WE NEED AT THIS MOMENT MORE THAN ANY OTHER ACTION.
>> YES.
THANK YOU SO MUCH.
>>> UP NEXT WE TURN TO AFGHANISTAN, THE TALIBAN ARE TO BE TAKEN TO THE INTERNATIONAL COURT OF JUSTICE.
IT WILL BE THE FIRST TIME A COUNTRY WILL BE TAKEN TO COURT OVER GENDER DISCRIMINATION AND IT IS THANKS TO THE TIRELESS EFFORTS OF THE BRAVE AFGHAN WOMEN STANDING UP FOR THEIR RIGHTS LIKE THE FORMER LAW ENFORCEMENT BECAUFAWZIA KOOFI A HABIBA SARABI.
THEY JOINED MERYL STREEP AT THE UNITED NATIONS TO PROMOTE A NEW DOCUMENTARY CALLED "THE SHARP EDGE OF PEACE" WHICH FOLLOWS THE PEACE EFFORTS IN 2020.
CHRISTIANE SAT DOWN WITH ALL THREE OF THEM TO DISCUSS HOW MUCH HAS CHANGED.
>> MERYL, BECAUSE THEA AND HABIBA.
WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
I WANT TO ASK YOU FIRST, MERYL, YOU INTRODUCED THE FILM, YOU WERE AT THE UNITED NATIONS WITH ALL THE WOMEN.
THE SECRETARY GENERAL WAS THERE.
YOU STARTED BY SAYING THE FOLLOWING ABOUT YOUR AFGHAN SISTERS.
>> TODAY IN KABUL, A FEMALE CAT HAS MORE FREEDOMS THAN A WOMAN.
A CAT MAY GO SIT ON HER FRONT STOOP AND FEEL THE SUN ON HER FACE.
SHE MAY CHASE A SQUIRREL INTO THE PARK.
A SQUIRREL HAS MORE RIGHTS THAN A GIRL IN AFGHANISTAN TODAY BECAUSE THE PUBLIC PARKS HAVE BEEN CLOSED TO WOMEN AND GIRLS BY THE TALIBAN.
A BIRD MAY SING IN KABUL.
BUT A GIRL MAY NOT.
AND A WOMAN MAY NOT IN PUBLIC.
THIS IS EXTRAORDINARY.
THIS IS A SUPPRESSION OF THE NATURAL LAW.
>> WHAT ABOUT THIS TOUCHES YOU AND MAKES YOU BE INVOLVED?
>> WELL, I HAVE FOLLOWED THE PLIGHT OF WOMEN IN AFGHANISTAN FOR ABOUT 20 YEARS WITH MY FRIEND JESSICA.
AND THE WORK OF THE WOMEN'S FORUM.
I HAVE BEEN VERY INTERESTED IN WOMEN'S RIGHTS AROUND THE WORLD AND IN THE UNITED STATES, AND STILL AM.
BUT THIS MOST RECENT EDICT THAT PEOPLE CAN'T SPEAK IN PUBLIC.
THAT THEY HAVE TO COMPLETELY HIDE THEMSELVES.
IT IS LIKE THE ERASURE OF AN ENTIRE POPULATION, AND I DON'T THINK IT HAS HISTORY IN THE NATURAL WORLD.
THAT ONE PART OF THE SPECIES ERASES THE PRESENCE OF ANOTHER.
AND I THINK IT IS PARTICULARLY AN ELOQUENT MOMENT TO RAISE WHERE WE ARE IN THE WORLD WITH AFGHAN RIGHTS.
>> AND BECAUFAWZIA, YOU'VE BEEN REALLY PUBLIC SPOKESWOMAN FOR AFGHANISTAN, ESPECIALLY THE WOMEN OF AFGHANISTAN.
AS MERYL SAID, SHE'S BEEN FOLLOWING THE PLIGHT OF AFGHAN WOMEN FOR 20 YEARS.
FOR 20 YEARS, YOU HAD FREEDOMS THAT YOU'VE NEVER HAD BEFORE.
YOUR FILM, "THE SHARP EDGE OF PEACE," SHOWS WOMEN DANCING, SINGING, PLAYING TAE KWON DO.
THERE IS A CLIP OF AN INTERVIEW WITH YOU ON THE TARMAC AT THE AIRPORT IN WHICH YOU EXPRESSED REAL HOPE THAT SO MUCH CHANGE HAD HAPPENED THAT THEY COULD NOT ROLL BACK THE RIGHTS FOR WOMEN.
WE'LL JUST PLAY THAT.
[ SPEAKING IN A GLOBAL LANGUAGE ] >> DESCRIBE WHAT IT IS LIKE TODAY.
>> I THINK THE ONE THING TALIBAN UNDERSTANDS, THE TRANSFORMATION IS NOT ONLY LIMITED TO KABUL IN TERMS OF LIBERTY, WOMEN'S RIGHTS, IN TERMS OF PEOPLE BELIEVING IN THE FUTURE OF THEIR DAUGHTERS MORE LIKE MY FATHER ESTABLISHED THE FIRST SCHOOL IN OUR VILLAGE.
BUT HE NEVER ALLOWED MY ELDER SISTERS TO GO TO SCHOOL.
PEOPLE FROM THE SAME VILLAGE OVER THE LAST 20 YEARS CAME TO ME ASKING SCHOOL FOR THEIR GIRLS TO BE ESTABLISHED.
SO THAT TRANSFORMED AFGHANISTAN.
THAT'S A TRANSFORMED WOMAN OF AFGHANISTAN.
YOU SEE THEM DESPITE BEING COMPLETELY ERASED FROM ANY KIND OF PUBLIC AND SOCIAL LIFE, THEY STILL PROTEST.
LIVING IN KABUL AND AFGHANISTAN THESE DAYS FOR ANY HUMAN BEINGS IS NOT EASY.
THE NEW EDICT ALSO PUT RULE ON MEN'S SIZE OF BEARD.
ON MEN'S WORK AND JOB THAT THEY CAN CHOOSE.
BUT DESPITE ALL OF THAT, WOMEN STILL SHOW RESILIENCE.
THAT IS A SIGN OF AFGHANISTAN THAT THE TALIBAN DON'T GET THAT.
THIS IS THE SAME AFGHANISTAN IN 1996 WHERE THEY WERE SUPPRESSESING PEOPLE AND THEY WERE SILENT.
TODAY, EVERY WOMAN IN AFGHANISTAN IS A JOURNALIST.
EVERY WOMAN TALKS ABOUT THEIR EXPERIENCES.
AS MUCH AS THEY SUFFER, THEY SUPPRESS THEM, THEY'RE POPPING UP IN A DIFFERENT WAY, IN A DIFFERENT WAY.
>> YOU WERE THE FIRST APPOINTED GOVERNOR RIGHT AFTER THE FALL OF TALIBAN, RIGHT AFTER DEMOCRACY IN A CERTAIN WAY, CERTAIN MORE LIBERTY FOR WOMEN CAME AFTER 2001.
SOME PEOPLE THINK THIS WAS JUST A PROJECT IN THE URBAN CENTERS.
JUST KABUL.
YOU WERE IN FULL AGRICULTURAL COUNTRY SIDE.
THEY TOOK TO YOUR AUTHORITY WITHOUT PROTESTING AGAINST IT.
YOU WERE ACCEPTED AS AN AUTHORITY FIGURE AS A FEMALE GOVERNOR.
>> DEFINITELY.
AND ALSO, NOT ONLY ACCEPTED BUT ALSO WELCOMED.
SO I REMEMBER THE TIME WHEN I WAS APPOINTED AS A GOVERNOR WHEN I WENT THERE AND THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE WERE COMING TO WELCOME ME.
SO IT WAS A POINT OF HISTORY AND THE HISTORY OF AFGHANISTAN.
>> YOU KNOW, MERYL, YOU POINTED OUT, I'M GOING TO QUOTE BECAUSE IT IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER.
SO MANY PEOPLE HAVE LOOKED AT AFGHANISTAN OVER THE DECADES.
>> OH, YES!
>> ACTUALLY AS OPPRESSED AND SECONDARY CITIZENS.
BUT YOU POINTED OUT, DROUSING THE FILM, THAT WOMEN IN AFGHANISTAN RECEIVED THE VOTE IN 1919.
WELL BEFORE WOMEN IN THE UNITED STATES RECEIVED THE RIGHT TO VOTE.
THE WAY THIS COUNTRY, THING SOCIETY HAS BEEN UP-ENDED IS A CAUTIONARY TALE FOR THE REST OF THE WORLD.
WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT?
A CAUTIONARY TALE.
>> WELL, I THINK WE IMAGINE IN OUR COMPLACENT FREEDOM-RICH LIVES THAT THE WORLD CANNOT BE UPENDED ON US.
WE ARE SEEING EVEN TODAY HOW WOMEN'S RIGHTS CAN BE COMPLETELY REVERSED.
RIGHTS THAT WE HAD ENCODE IN THE LAW FOR HALF A CENTURY COULD BE ROLLED BACK.
YES, WOMEN IN SWITZERLAND GOT THE VOTE IN 1971.
WOMEN IN FRANCE IN 1940 SOMETHING.
IN AFGHANISTAN, WOMEN HAD THE VOTE IN 1919.
I MEAN, IT IS A COMPLETE UPENDING AND THE FORCES, THIS IS WHAT REALLY CONFOUND ME.
WHAT IS IT THAT PEOPLE IMAGINE CAN HAPPEN?
FOR THE GOOD.
WHAT DO THE TALIBAN IMAGINE IS GOOD FOR THE SOCIETY?
>> WELL, WHAT DO YOU THINK THEY IMAGINE IS GOOD FOR THE SOCIETY BY REVERSING YOUR ROLES?
AS YOU SAY, IT IS HALF THE SOCIETY.
HALF THE POPULATION, INCLUDING THE WIVES, SISTERS, MOTHERS, AUNTS.
>> I DON'T THINK MOST OF THE WIVES AND SISTERS AND DAUGHTERS ARE AFFECTED BY THIS.
I THINK THEY HAVE THEIR DAUGHTERS AND SISTERS STUDYING IN SOME PRESTIGIOUS UNIVERSITY OUTSIDE THE COUNTRY.
I THINK IT IS THE MAJORITY OF THE VOICELESS WOMEN AND WOMEN OF AFGHANISTAN WHO ARE AFFECTED BY THIS.
I THINK THE TALIBAN HAVE A PHOBIA ABOUT EDUCATED WOMEN.
THE MORE INDEPENDENT A WOMAN BECOMES, IT IS A THREAT FOR PATRIARCHY.
NO EDUCATED WOMAN WOULD ALLOW HER SON TO PICK UP A GUN AND FATE.
SO THE TALIBAN WOULD LOSE THE GROUND.
IT IS BASED ON SUPPRESSION.
SO WOMEN'S RIGHTS HAVE BECOME A WEAPON FOR THE POWER TO CONTINUE AND THAT'S WHY.
I THINK OUR PLEA IS NOT TO FALL INTO THAT TRAP OF THE NARRATIVE.
THAT'S NOT ISLAM.
SO CHALLENGE THE ISLAMIC PRINCIPLE.
>> WHEN YOU WERE IN DOHA IN 2020, DONALD TRUMP THAT WE'RE PULLING OUT.
AND HE DID NOT INVITE THE GOVERNMENT OF AFGHANISTAN.
HE INVITED THE TALIBAN TO COME NEGOTIATE.
WHAT DID YOU THINK THAT YOU COULD CHEF AT THESE TALKS?
>> IT WAS A LOT OF HOPE TO ACHIEVE, FOR THE TALKS.
SO THAT THINGS COULD BE DIFFERENT IF THE THREE SIDES, THE GOVERNMENT OF AFGHANISTAN, THE UNITED STATES, AND ALSO, TALIBAN COULD BE TOGETHER TO TALK ABOUT EVERYTHING.
THE PROBLEM WAS THAT THE AGREEMENT WAS ONLY BETWEEN THE U.S. AND TALIBAN.
AND THE PEOPLE OF AFGHANISTAN, ESPECIALLY THE GOVERNMENT OF AFGHANISTAN, SIDE-LINED.
SO IT WAS THE BIGGEST PROBLEM.
SO THEY WERE THINKING THAT THEY HAVE DEFEATED U.S. AND NATO AND ALL INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITIES, ESPECIALLY THE U.S.
SO IF THINGS COULD BE DIFFERENT, FOR EXAMPLE, IF THEY COULDN'T HAVE THE AGREEMENT BEFORE SO WE COULD NEGOTIATE IN A BETTER WAY TO TALK ABOUT THIS, ALL THE CITIZENS' RIGHTS, THE SECOND CHAPTER OF OUR CONSTITUTION, WHICH WAS THE RIGHTS OF WOMEN, MEN, AND ALL THE CITIZENS OF AFGHANISTAN.
WE WERE VERY FOCUSED ON THAT AND IT WAS SOMETHING FOR US.
VERY, VERY IMPORTANT THAT WE COULD NOT NEGOTIATE ABOUT THAT.
>> I DON'T KNOW, MERYL, WHEN YOU SAW THE IMMEDIATE AFTERMATH.
PRESIDENT TRUMP COULD HAVE CHOSEN TO PULL OUT.
THAT'S WHERE HIS HEART WAS.
HE MADE IT VERY CLEAR DURING HIS ELECTION CAMPAIGN THAT THIS SHOULD BE AN END.
HE SORT OF SAID MY JOB IS TO PROTECT AMERICANS AND NOT NECESSARILY AFGHAN WOMEN.
IT WAS A PRETTY SHOCKING SOUND BITE BACK THEN.
I WONDER AS AN AMERICAN, WHAT YOU THOUGHT OF THE LONG AMERICAN INVOLVEMENT THERE, AND WHETHER YOU THINK THAT IT WAS WORTHWHILE, AND COULD HAVE CONTINUED TO PRODUCE THE KINDS OF RESULTS THAT BROUGHT FREEDOMS TO THESE WOMEN.
>> I ACTUALLY THINK THAT THE INVOLVEMENT -- THAT'S WHY WE SPOKE AT THE U.N.
I THINK THE INVOLVEMENT OF THE ENTIRE WORLD, ESPECIALLY THE MUSLIM WORLD, WILL HAVE MORE SUCCESS IN COMPELLING THE TALIBAN EITHER BY LEVERAGE, BY FINANCIAL LEVERAGE, OR BY OTHER MEANS TO CONVINCE THEM THAT THIS REPRESSION OF HALF THE CITIZENRY IS NOT GOING TO MOVE THEIR CASE FORWARD MATERIALLY, SPIRITUALLY OR POLITICALLY.
>> YOU CAN WATCH THAT FULL INTERVIEW ONLINE AT OUR WEBSITE.
>>> NOW, LOUISIANA LIBRARIAN AMANDA JONES NEVER IMAGINED HER LINE OF WORK WOULD MAKE HER A TARGET OF WORK BUT THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED AFTER SHE SPOKE OUT AGAINST BOOK BANS IN JULY OF 2022.
SHE WROTE ABOUT THE EMOTIONAL EXPERIENCE IN A BOOK CALLED "THE LIBRARIAN."
HERE SHE IS.
A WARNING.
SOME OF THE LANGUAGE YOU'RE ABOUT TO SEE AND HEAR IS OFFENSIVE.
>> THANKS.
AMANDA JONES, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.
WE ARE SPEAKING WITH YOU NOT JUST BECAUSE YOU ARE A LIBRARIAN IN LOUISIANA WHO HAS WRITTEN AN AMAZING BOOK CALLED "THE LIBRARIAN: THE FIGHT AGAINST BOOK BANNING IN AMERICA."
BUT HOW DID THIS ALL COME TO BE?
YOU'RE AN ENGLISH TEACHER, MOVING TO BECOME A LIBRARIAN.
NOT A POSITION THAT PEOPLE WOULD THINK OF AT THE CENTER OF A CULTURE WAR.
>> YES.
I'M A LIBRARIAN AND ALL DID I WAS GIVE A PEOPLE IS ABOUT INTELLECTUAL FREEDOM AND STANDING UP AGAINST CENSORSHIP IN MY LOCAL LIBRARY.
>> WHAT MADE YOU WANT TO GO TO THAT MEETING IN THE FIRST PLACE?
>> WELL, WE HAVE HAD SOME ISSUES IN A NEIGHBORING PARISH IN LOUISIANA.
WE'RE PARISHES, NOT COUNTIES.
THERE'S AN EXTREMIST GROUP THAT HAD BEEN INSTRUMENTAL IN GETTING FUNDING CUT FOR THE PARISH NEXT DOOR TO US IN OUR LOCAL PUBLIC LIBRARY, GETTING CAJUN HISTORY DISPLACED, AND MOVING BOOKS.
AND THEY TURNED THEIR SIGHTS ON OUR PARISH.
I KNEW I NEEDED TO GET THERE AND SPEAK AT THE PUBLIC LIBRARY BOARD BEFORE THEY GOT TO OUR PARISH LIBRARY SYSTEM AND STARTED DOING THE SAME THING.
>> SO YOU MAKE A SPEECH AT A LIBRARY BOARD.
AGAIN, NOT SOMEWHERE THAT I EXPECT FIREWORKS TO FLY.
WHAT HAPPENED DURING THAT MEETING?
WHAT HAPPENED AFTER?
>> WELL, I WAS ONE OF AROUND 30 PEOPLE THAT SPOKE AT THE MEETING AND PRETTY MUCH EVERYBODY AT THE MEETING WAS FROM OUR COMMUNITY EXCEPT THE OUTSIDE EXTREMIST GROUP WHO SPOKE AGAINST OUR LIBRARY.
WE ALL SAID PRETTY MUCH THE SAME THINGS.
THAT WE HAD POLICIES AND PROCEDURES IN PLACE AND WE LOVED OUR LIBRARY AND I THOUGHT THAT WAS THAT.
FOUR DAYS LATER I WOKE UP TO A TARGETED SMEAR CAMPAIGN AGAINST ME.
TWO MINUTES WERE POSTING AWFUL MEMES ABOUT ME AND SAYING HORRIBLE THINGS ONLINE ABOUT ME.
>> I WAS HESITANT TO READ SOME OF THESE COMMENTS.
I WANT, FOR OUR AUDIENCE, TO ILLUSTRATE THE KIND OF STUFF YOU WERE GETTING HERE.
ONE SAID, CONTINUE WITH YOUR LGBT AGENDA ON OUR CHILDREN BECAUSE WE'RE GOING TO PUT YOUR FAT EVIL COMY ASS IN THE DIRT VERY SOON BITCH.
WE KNOW WHERE YOU WORK AND LIVE.
YOU HAVE A LARGE TARGET ON YOUR BACK.
CLICK, CLICK.
SEE YOU SOON.
WHEN YOU SAW THAT, WHAT WAS YOUR REACTION?
>> I WAS HYSTERICAL.
I'VE BEEN HERE 24 YEARS.
AND I HAVE GOTTEN NOTHING BUT PRAISE AND HIGH OBSERVATIONS, AND I HAVE A LOT OF PARENTAL COMMUNICATION BACK AND FORTHWITH PARENTS.
I'VE NEVER HAD ANYTHING EVEN REMOTELY CLOSE TO THAT.
I WAS SHOCKED.
HYSTERICAL.
>> WHAT DID IT DO TO YOU?
>> WELL, YOU KNOW, IT WAS VERY ROUGH.
PEOPLE WERE CALLING ME AWFUL NAMES.
THESE ARE PEOPLE THAT I'VE GROWN UP WITH.
I LIVE IN A VERY SMALL TOWN IN LOUISIANA.
I'M A 46-YEAR RESIDENT.
I'VE LIVED HERE MY WHOLE LIFE.
IT WAS PEOPLE I KNOW THAT WERE JOINING IN.
IT'S VERY HORRIBLE TO SEE PEOPLE THAT YOU KNOW JOIN IN AND JUST KIND OF DOG PILE ON YOU.
AND I SPENT DAYS CRYING SO HARD.
MY EYES SWELLED SHUT.
I HAD TO TAKE -- IT'S NOT JUST ONLINE.
IT'S IN PERSON.
THEY SAY AWFUL THING TO ME IN PERSON.
I CAN'T GO GROCERY SHOPPING.
I'M SCARED TO GO OUTSIDE IN MY COMMUNITY.
IT HAS BEEN TWO YEARS.
THEY TAKE PICTURES OF ME.
THEY STILL POST AWFUL THINGS ABOUT ME.
THEY TRY TO GET ME FIRED IN MY JOB.
I'VE DONE NOTHING WRONG.
IT TAKES A TOLL ON ME.
I HAD TO TAKE A MEDICAL LEAVE FROM WORK.
I WAS HAVING PANIC ATTACKS.
>> CAN YOU TALK ABOUT WHAT KINDS OF STEPS YOU'VE TAKEN FOR YOUR OWN MENTAL HEALTH CONSIDERING YOU'RE STILL LIVING IN THIS COMMUNITY?
>> YES.
WE GOT SECURITY CAMERAS AROUND OUR HOME.
I GOT SECURITY CAMERAS ON MY VEHICLE.
I DO HAVE A WEAPON IN THE HOME BECAUSE I'M SCARED FOR MY LIFE.
I DO THERAPY FOR THE FIRST TIME IN MY LIFE, I GO TO THERAPY.
I HAVE TO TAKE ANTI-ANXIETY MEDICATION FOR PANIC ATTACKS.
I TRY TO SURROUND MYSELF WITH POSITIVE PEOPLE AS BEST I CAN.
YOU KNOW, IT HASN'T BEEN AN EASY TWO YEARS.
I DON'T THINK IT IS GETTING BETTER ANY TIME SOON.
>> WHY TARGET LIBRARIES?
WHY ARE THEY THE BATTLEGROUNDS?
WHAT MADE THEM COME AFTER YOU?
>> I THINK THEY CAME AFTER ME BECAUSE I WAS ONE OF THE MORE PROMINENT PEOPLE WHO SPOKE THAT EVENING.
I WAS THE 2021 NATIONAL SCHOOL LIBRARIAN OF THE YEAR AND THE STATE LIBRARIAN OF THE YEAR.
SO THAT'S MY THEORY.
I WAS IN A DRESSED UP IN A SUIT AND I WAS DRESSED UP COMPARED TO OTHER PEOPLE AT THE MEETING, I GUESS.
BASICALLY, IT IS TWO DIFFERENT ENTITIES CAME AFTER ME.
ONE WAS A LOCAL GUY JOINING IN.
I GUESS IF YOU WANT TO CALL IT, AND ONE PERSON WAS AN OUTSIDE EXTREMIST GROUP THAT DOES IT TO LIBRARIANS ALL ACROSS OUR STATE.
>> WHAT EXACTLY IS HAPPENING?
WHAT ARE THEY ADVOCATING FOR?
IS IT SPECIFIC BOOKS THEY WANT BANNED?
WHAT IS THEIR CONTENTION?
>> WELL, THEY CLAIM THAT THEY'RE SEXUALLY EXPLICIT BOOKS IN CHILDREN'S SECTIONS OF THE LIBRARIES.
THEY NEVER HAVE ANY TITLES.
THEY JUST SAY THEY'RE THERE.
THERE ARE SOME BOOKS, SEXUAL HEALTH BOOKS OR BOOKS FOR OLDER TEENS THAT ARE NEVER FOUND IN THE CHILDREN'S SECTION.
THEY ARE WRITTEN FOR TEENAGERS THAT ARE FOUND IN THE OLDER TEEN'S SECTION.
AND OUR LIBRARIES ALL HAVE POLICY THAT SAY MINORS CANNOT BE UNACCOMPANIED UNDER THE AGE OF 13.
THEY HAVE TO HAVE A PARENT WITH THEM.
BUT IT'S SEXUAL HEALTH BOOKS ABOUT REPRODUCTION.
>> YOU HAVE TRIED TO TAKE THEM TO COURT TO SUE FOR DEFAMATION.
AND RIGHT NOW, THAT WAS FOUND WITHOUT MERIT.
AND YOU ARE APPEALING.
EXPLAIN WHAT'S HAPPENING ON THIS ON THE LEGAL FRONT?
>> SO THE LOCAL ELECTED JUDGE SAID IT IS JUST THEIR OPINION THAT I DO ALL THESE HORRIBLE THINGS AND WOULDN'T ALLOW MY ATTORNEY TO READ APPLY ENTIRE SPEECH INTO RECORD BEFORE DISMISSING THE ENTIRE CASE.
SO WE ARE APPEALING.
I LOST MY APPEAL ON A TECHNICALITY SO NOW WE'RE APPEALING TO THE LOUISIANA SUPREME COURT JUST FOR THE RIGHT TO HAVE A TRIAL TO BRING MY DEFAMERS IN FRONT OF A JURY OF MY PEERS.
ALL I'M ASKING IS FOR A DOLLAR AND AN APOLOGY.
THAT'S ALL I WANT.
>> THE PEOPLE IN THIS LAWSUIT THAT YOU'RE SUING, DO THEY SAY, HOW COULD I BE DEFAMING HER?
SHE HAS BECOME AN INTERNATIONAL STAR.
SHE'S ON PROGRAMS LIKE THIS ONE NOW.
SHE HAS A GROUP THAT SHE STARTED.
WHAT'S WRONG WITH THAT ARGUMENT?
>> WELL, FOR STARTERS, IF THEY HADN'T HARASSED ME, I WOULD STILL BE A SCHOOL LIBRARIAN IN A TWO RED-LIGHT TOWN THEMSELVES WANTED TO SILENCE ME.
I THOUGHT THE BEST RECOURSE, I'M NOT GOING TO ARGUE WITH THEM ON SOCIAL MEDIA.
THE ONLY RECOURSE THAT I THOUGHT I HAD WAS TO SPREAD THE WORDS, TELL MY STORY.
AND I'LL TELL MY STORY TO ANYONE WHO WANTS TO LISTEN AS LONG AS THEY'RE HARASSING ME.
I HAVE NO OTHER RECOURSE.
>> WHAT IS THE CLIMATE LIKE IN LOUISIANA?
I HEARD THERE WAS A REASON LAW PASSED THAT YOU NO LONGER HAVE TO HAVE A CERTIFICATION OR ANY SORT OF ADVANCED LEARNING TO BE A LIBRARIAN ANYMORE.
>> YEAH.
WE HAD NINE ANTI-LIBRARY BILLS THIS PAST LEGISLATIVE SESSION IN LOUISIANA.
IT'S SOMETHING THAT OUR GOVERNOR, OUR CURRENT GOVERNOR, HAS PUSHED FOR.
THAT WAS HIS PLATFORM WHEN HE WAS RUNNING FOR GOVERNOR.
HE CREATED A TIP LINE TO REPORT LIBRARIANS WHO WERE GIVING SEXUALLY EXPLICIT MATERIAL TO CHILDREN EVEN THOUGH HE COULD PROVIDE NO EVIDENCE IT WAS HAPPENING.
THAT WAS ONE OF HIS BIG PLATFORMS.
TO USE US AS PAWNS TO HELP GET ELECTED.
BUT WE HAD NINE ANTI-LIBRARY BILLS.
ONLY ONE PASSED BUT IT WAS TOO WATERED DOWN IN REQUIREMENTS FOR PUBLIC LIBRARY DIRECTORS SO THEY NO LONGER HAVE TO HAVE A DEGREE.
THAT'S SO THAT OUR CURRENT LIBRARY DIRECTORS CAN BE REPLACED WITH UNQUALIFIED PEOPLE.
THE RUMORS WERE PASTORS AND OTHER PEOPLE NOT QUALIFIED.
>> SO WE'VE SEEN A POLITICALIZATION OF WHAT OTHERWISE WE WOULD THINK IS ONE OF THE LEAST POLITICAL JOBS IN THE COUNTRY, TO BE A LIBRARIAN.
NOW AT LEAST IN LOUISIANA, IF THOSE DIRECTORS CAN BE REPLACED, THEN I GUESS IT KIND OF IS WHEREVER THE WIND BLOWS.
WHOEVER IS IN POWER AT THAT POINT.
>> AND WE'RE LUCKY THE OTHER BILLS DIDN'T PASS.
THERE WERE SEVERAL OTHER BILLS.
ONE BILL, HB 777, IF WE WENT TO, IF WE WENT TO AN AMERICAN LIBRARY CONFERENCE, WE ASKED TO BE REIMBURSED THROUGH OUR WORK, THAT WE COULD SERVE TWO YEARS HARD LABOR IN PRISON.
IT'S JUST, IT DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE.
LIBRARIANS, WE DON'T GO INTO OUR JOBS FOR MONEY OR FAME OR FORTUNE.
WE LOVE KIDS, WE LOVE THE COMMUNITY AND WE WANT TO HELP PROVIDE RESOURCES.
SO TO ME THAT SHOULD BE A FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHT.
THERE ARE SO MANY UNTRUTHS BEING TOLD ALL ACROSS THE UNITED STATES.
>> SO TELL US A LITTLE ABOUT THAT.
NOW LET'S ZOOM OUT ONE STEP FURTHER.
WHERE IS THIS EFFORT TO BAN BOOKS OR CONSTRAIN THE POWER OF LIBRARIANS ACROSS THE COUNTRY?
WHAT DO WE SEE HAPPENING?
>> IT'S IN EVERY SINGLE STATE, ALL 50 STATES.
AND IT HAPPENS AT THE LOCAL LEVEL IN EACH STATE.
WE HAVE STATES LIKE MISSOURI PASSED A LAW AGAINST LIBRARIANS, TO IMPRISON LIBRARIANS.
IN UTAH, THEY CREATED A LAW IF IF THREE SCHOOL DISTRICTS DON'T LIKE A BOOK, THEN THE BOOKS ARE BANNED ACROSS THE STATE FROM EVERY SCHOOL.
THIS IS SWEEPING LEGISLATION THAT IS HAPPENING ALL ACROSS THE COUNTRY.
LIBRARIANS ARE BEING HARASSED.
MY SITUATION IS NOT UNIQUE.
I CAN NAME A LIBRARIAN IN EVERY STATE LIKE ME WHO HAS BEEN TARGETED AND HARASSED AND DEFAMED.
I'M CONCERNED ABOUT THE STATE OF LIBRARIES.
EVENTUALLY, PEOPLE WILL LEAVE THE PROFESSION AND IT'S HAPPENING TO SCHOOL LIBRARIES AND PUBLIC LIBRARIES.
>> IS THERE ALREADY A CHILLING EFFECT?
IF SOMEONE IS TRYING TO GET A PUBLIC REQUEST OF ALL THE EMAILS YOU'VE WRITTEN, IS THAT HAVING AN EFFECT ON SOMEONE WHO IS CHOOSING TO BE A LIAR RARIAN?
>> YES.
IT IS VERY INTIMIDATING WHEN THEY CONSTANT SUBMIT PUBLIC RECORDS REQUESTS.
IT IS AN INTIMIDATION FACTOR.
WHAT YOU'RE SEEING IS LIBRARIANS ARE SCARED TO OPEN BOOKS.
IT IS ANY BOOKS WITH LGBTQ CHARACTERS OR WITH PEOPLE OF COLOR.
IT IS CREATING A SOFT SENSORSHIP EFFECT.
LIBRARIANS ARE SCARED TO ORDER BOOKS SO IN TURN THERE WILL BE STUDENTS NOT REPRESENTED ON THE SHELVES IN THE LIBRARY.
>> THERE'S A PASSAGE FROM YOUR BOOK THAT YOU WRITE.
I HAVE TAUGHT QUEER STUDENTS, THEY ARE NAMED CALLED, I HAVE TAUGHT THEM.
THEY GREW UP AND TOOK THEIR OWN LIVES DUE TO THE LONELINESS OF THE OSTRACIZATION AND HAVE WATCHED OUR YOUNGER CITIZENS MOVE AWAY FROM OUR PARISH TO MORE INCLUSIVE ENVIRONMENTS BECAUSE THEY ARE SICK OF THEIR ILL TREATMENT.
CONNECTION THOSE DOTS FOR US A LITTLE MORE FOR US.
WHY IS IT SO SIGNIFICANT FOR A CHILD WHO MIGHT BE LGBTQ+ TO SEE THEMSELVES IN A BOOK?
>> WELL, BOOKS SAVE LIVES.
NOT JUST THE LGBTQ COMMUNITY.
WE HAVE A LOT OF KIDS IN FOSTER CARE.
KIDS WHO HAVE PARENTS WITH DRUG ADDICTION.
KIDS CAN SEE A BOOK AND SEE THAT THEY'RE NOT ALONE.
IT IS HAPPENING TO OTHER PEOPLE.
THEY CAN ASK FOR HELP IF THEY'RE IN SITUATIONS AT HOME.
WE ALL HAVE, WHETHER OR NOT ANYONE WANTS TO ADMIT IT OR NOT, WE HAVE STUDENTS AND HOUSEHOLDS WHERE THERE ARE TWO MOMS AND TWO DADS.
THEY PAY TAX LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE AND THEY DESERVE TO HAVE BOOKS IN THEIR LIBRARY THAT HAVE CHARACTERS WHICH REPRESENT THEIR FAMILIES.
>> A LOT OF THE PUSHBACK SEEMS TO BE WRAPPED IN THE LANGUAGE OF PARENTAL RIGHTS.
ON THE SURFACE, IT LOOKS LIKE A REASONABLE ARGUMENT.
THAT A APPARENTLY SHOULD HAVE THE RIGHT TO FIGURE OUT WHAT THEIR CHILD READS.
WHAT'S SO WRONG WITH THAT LINE OF THINKING?
>> THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH A PARENT WANTING TO BE IN CHARGE OF WHAT THEY READ AND WHAT THEY HAVE ACCESS TO.
I AM ALL FOR PARENTAL RIGHTS.
WE ARE SEEING BAD-FAITH ACTORS DOING MASS CHALLENGES.
WHAT WE'RE SEEING IN MY COMMUNITY IS NOT PARENTS, NOT EVEN PEOPLE WITH LIBRARY CARDS THAT ARE CHALLENGING BOOKS THEY'VE NEVER READ BECAUSE SOMEONE TOLD THEM TO.
SOMETIMES IN OTHER PARISHES IN OTHER STATES, SOMETIMES OTHER BOOKS, THESE PEOPLE DON'T HAVE PARENTS IN THE SCHOOLS.
THEY SOMETIMES DON'T EVEN LIVE IN THOSE COMMUNITIES.
I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH A PARENT SAYING I DON'T LIKE THIS BOOK FOR MY CHILD.
CAN YOU MAYBE NOT LET MY CHILD HAVE ACCESS TO IT.
THAT'S NOT WHAT WE'RE SEEING.
WE'RE SEEING EXTREMIST GROUPS WITH HUNDREDS OF THESE BOOK CHALLENGES ALL ACROSS THE U.S. >>> IS THERE A PLAY BOOK HERE?
WALK ME THROUGH STEP BY STEP.
WHAT HAPPENS TO A LIBRARIAN NOW IN 50 STATES ACROSS AMERICA?
>> WELL, WE TRY TO DO OUR JOBS.
OFTENTIMES IS SOMEONE IN THE COMMUNITY, IF YOU TRACE IT BACK, IT'S USUALLY TO A DARK MONEY NONPROFIT GROUP STIRRING UP DRAMA, THEY'LL TAKE A PAGE OF A BOOK OUT OF CONTEXT.
THEY'LL POST IT AND RILE EVERYONE UP.
THEN THE POLITICIANS SWOOP IN TO SAVE THE DAY WITH SOLUTIONS TO PROBLEMS THAT DON'T EXIST.
USUALLY IT HAPPENS WHEN THERE IS A LOCAL ELECTION.
THEN THEY WILL TRY TO OVERTAKE PUBLIC LIBRARY BOARDS, SCHOOL BOARDS.
THOSE PEOPLE GET INTO POWER.
THEN YOU SEE LEGISLATION.
THE ULTIMATE GOAL IS TO DEFUND SCHOOLS AND PUSH THE SCHOOLS INTO SYSTEMS.
>> I KNOW YOU'RE ACTIVE WITH THE LIBRARIES AROUND THE COUNTRY.
WHAT ARE THE STORIES THAT YOU'RE HEARING FROM OTHER LIBRARIANS ABOUT WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THEIR, NOT JUST SCHOOL DISTRICTS BUT IN THEIR COMMUNITIES?
>> I TELL YOU, IT'S SO HARD TO GET PHONE CALLS FROM LIBRARIANS THAT CRY THAT THIS IS HAPPENING TO THEM.
I GET MESSAGES AND EMAILS EVERY WEEK.
LIBRARIANS JUST CRYING, UPSET.
THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO.
THEY DON'T KNOW WHY THEY'RE BEING TARGETED.
PEOPLE IT IS DISHEARTENING.
THE FACT THAT WE HAVE TO HAVE A LIBRARIAN SUPPORT GROUP IS SOMETHING I NEVER THOUGHT WE WOULD DO.
I HAVE TO HAVE.
IT'S JUST SAD.
IT IS HAPPENING TO SCHOOL LIBRARIANS AND PUBLIC LIBRARIANS AND I'M VERY CONCERNED ABOUT THE STATE OF OUR LIBRARIES.
THIS ERA OF HARASSMENT OF LIBRARIANS AND CENSORSHIP AND BOOK BANS, EVEN IF WE SOLVE THE PROBLEM IN THE NEXT YEAR, WE'LL SEE THE EFFECTS FOR DECADES.
>> TELL ME A LITTLE ABOUT THE SCALE OF THE BOOK BANS.
I KNOW THEY SAID THERE WERE A NUMBER OF ATTEMPTED BOOK BANS IN THE LAST PART OF LAST YEAR.
>> YEAH.
THEY REPORTED THIS WEEK THAT THERE WERE 10,000 REPORTED BOOK BANS IN THE LAST YEAR IN SCHOOLS.
GO THE A.L.A., THE AMERICAN LIBRARY ASSOCIATION, PUTS OUT A REPORT.
IT SEEMS LIKE LAST YEAR IT WAS ABOUT 4,000.
IT IS GROWING EXPONENTIALLY.
BUT ON THE OTHER SIDE, WE ARE SEEING COURT CASES IN FLORIDA AND TEXAS AND THEY HAVE HAD SUCCESSFUL WE'RE HOPING THAT MAYBE THIS WILL SLOW IT DOWN OR STOP IT.
I THINK A LOT HINGES ON OUR NEXT PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION.
>> IF YOU HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO MAKE A SALES PITCH TO AMERICA ON WHY THIS ELECTION IS SO CONSEQUENTIAL, WHAT WOULD THAT BE?
>> WELL, I WOULD SAY THE PUSH AGAINST LIBRARIES IS KIND OF THE SAME PUSH AGAINST PUBLIC EDUCATION.
WOMEN'S RIGHTS, RIGHTS OF CHILDREN, HUMAN RIGHTS ISSUES.
IT'S ALL CONNECTED.
SO LIBRARIES MIGHT NOT BE IN THE TOP FIVE BUT A LOT OF THOSE OTHER ISSUES MIGHT BE IN THE TOP FIVE.
SO YOU VOTE FOR SOMEONE WHO WILL BE FOR HUMAN RIGHTS, WOMEN'S RIGHTS, REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS.
THIS CAN HELP LIBRARIES, TOO.
>> AMANDA JONES, THE AUTHOR OF "THAT LIBRARIAN, THE FIGHT AGAINST BOOK BANNING IN AMERICA."
THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.
>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.
>> THANK YOU FOR WATCHING.
GOODBYE FROM NEW YORK.