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> HELLO, EVERYONE.
WELCOME TO 'AMANPOUR & CO.'
HERE IS WHAT'S COMING UP.
THIS DOCUMENT, THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES, HAS HELD THESE MILLIONS OF PEOPLE TOGETHER, A VERY DIVERSE GROUP.
A RARE INTERVIEW WITH A SITTING SUPREME COURT JUSTICE.
I SPEAK WITH STEPHEN BREYER ABOUT THE DANGER ZONE WHEN LAW.
> A FURNITURE SALESMAN AND A HOTEL HEIST.
WE GO INSIDE THE WORLD IN A NOVEL 'HARLEM SHUFFLE.'
> IT'S NOT OVER.
TRUMP IS OUT THERE.
BOB WOODWARD JOINS WALTER ISAACSON WITH NEW DETAILS ABOUT THE TRANSFER OF POWER FROM TRUMP TO BIDEN.
POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY.
SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III.
FAMILY.RYL AND PHILIP MILSTEIN CANDACE KING WEIR.
THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION.
BERNARD AND DENISE SCHWARTZ.
THESE FUNDERS.PORT PROVIDED BY AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.
THANK YOU.
> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
IN JUST DAYS FROM NOW, THE SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES WILL BEGIN ITS NEW TERM.
ON THE DOCKET ARE A NUMBER OF HIGH STAKES ISSUES THAT HAVE THE POTENTIAL TO RESHAPE AMERICAN IT INCLUDES A GUN CASE FROM NEW YORK AND A MISSISSIPPI CASE THAT COULD GUT ROE VERSUS WADE.
THE 50-YEAR-OLD RULING THAT GUARANTEES THE RIGHT OF A WOMAN TO CHOOSE.
YOU MIGHT RECALL, THE COURT ALLOWED A CONTROVERSIAL TEXAS ABORTION LAW TO GO INTO AFFECTT.
POLLS SHOW THE PUBLIC SUPPORTS THE SUPREME COURT IS DECLINING.
ONLY NINE AMERICANS HAVE THE PRIVILEGE OF SITTING ON AMERICA'S HIGHEST COURT AT ANY ONE TIME.
ONE OF THEM IS STEPHEN BREYER.
HE WAS APPOINTED IN 1994 BY BILL CLINTON AND FOLLOWING THE DEATH OF RUTH BADER GINSBURG LAST YEAR, PROGRESSIVES ARE PUSHING FOR HIS RETIREMENT DURING THIS DEMOCRATIC ADMINISTRATION.
SO FAR, HE HAS NOT REVEALED WHEN HE MIGHT RETIRE, ONLY THAT THIS CERTAINLY OR RATHER MOST LIKELY WILL HAPPEN.
THE JUSTICS -- I DID SPEAK TO ALL OF THE ISSUES. WHICH COVERS HE JOINED ME FROM WASHINGTON.
JUSTICE, BECOME TO OUR PROGRAM.
THANK YOU.
NICE TO BE HERE.
I WANT TO START BY ASKING YOU BY VIRTUE OF THE FACT I'M TALKING TO YOU FROM ABROAD ABOUT SOMETHING YOU USED IN THE BEGINNING OF THE BOOK, TOWARDS THE BEGINNING.
IT'S AN ENCOUNTER WITH THE SUPREME COURT JUSTICE IN GHANA.
SHE BASICALLY SAID TO YOU THAT, WHY DOES THE AMERICAN PUBLIC DO WHAT THE SUPREME COURT SAYS?
SHE WAS CHIEF JUSTICE IN HER OWN I WONDER WHETHER SHE WAS SURPRISED BY THAT.
THE QUESTION IS WHY?
WHAT DID YOU TELL HER?
THAT'S THE QUESTION, ALL THAT'S A VERY GOOD QUESTION.
THERE IS NO OBVIOUS ANSWER.
IT'S A QUESTION OF HABIT.
IT'S A QUESTION OF CUSTOM.
IT'S A QUESTION OF WHAT YOU ARE USED TO.
AND THE POINT OF GOING THROUGH THAT IN, I DON'T KNOW, MAYBE 30, 40 PAGES AND GIVING A FEW EXAMPLES, IS IT TAKES A LONG, LONG TIME BEFORE THE PUBLIC IN THE UNITED STATES OR IN ANY COUNTRY BECOMES USED TO WHAT I WOULD CALL A RULE OF LAW.
AND A RULE OF LAW MEANS SOMETIMES, PARTICULARLY IF COURTS ARE INVOLVED, FOLLOWING DECISIONS OR LAWS THAT YOU DON'T LIKE, THAT YOU MIGHT THINK A COURT DECISION IS WRONG, AND MAYBE IT IS WRONG.
BUT IT'S THE PEOPLE WHO DON'T LIKE IT WHO HAVE TO BE CONVINCED THAT IT'S IN THEIR INTEREST TO FOLLOW IT.
OTHERWISE, THERE'S NO RULE OF LAW.
OKAY.
INDEED.
SO YOU LAID THAT OUT.AKES PERFE.
SHE PROBABLY COMES FROM A NATION WHERE THERE ISN'T THAT MUCH TRUST AND THERE IS, UNFORTUNATELY, IN MANY COUNTRIES ABROAD, A TENDENCY FOR THEIR HIGHEST COURT TO BE POLITICIZED.
THAT SEEMS TO BE, IN MANY PEOPLE'S JUDGEMENT, WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO THE SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES.
GIVEN THAT THIS IS A REALLY IMPORTANT AREA OF YOUR STUDY, I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT WHETHER YOU THINK THE AMERICAN PEOPLE STILL TRUST THE COURT ENOUGH TO QUOTE, UNQUOTE, DO AS IT SAYS, WHETHER THEY BELIEVE IT OR NOT, BECAUSE THE LATEST POLLS SAY THAT TRUST IN YOUR COURT IS IN DECLINE.
40% OF AMERICANS APPROVE THE JOB THAT YOU ALL ARE DOING.
IT'S THE LOWEST SINCE THESE POLLS BEGAN IN 2000.
ANOTHER NEW POLL SAYS, A SHARP DECLINE FROM 60% OF APPROVAL IN JULY OF THIS YEAR TO 49% IN SEPTEMBER OF THIS YEAR.
HOW DO YOU ACCOUNT FOR THAT ALARMING DROP IN APPROVAL?
I THINK THAT'S A VERY GOOD QUESTION.D I WOULD MAKE TWO POIT ALSO STRUCK ME FROM THAT.
THE FIRST, OF COURSE, IS THAT THE SUPREME COURT, IF YOU TAKE YOUR FIGURES ON APPROVAL, IS FAR HIGHER THAN ANY OTHER GOVERNMENT TRY CONGRESS.
EVEN THE PRESIDENCY.
YOU WILL SEE THAT THAT REFLECTS GENERALLY, IN MY OPINION, A PROBLEM OF TRUST IN INSTITUTIONS IN AMERICA, PARTICULARLY GOVERNMENT INSTITUTIONS.
THAT'S A HUGE PROBLEM.
AND I THINK THE SECOND IS THE QUESTION.
THE QUESTION IS, DO YOU APPROVE OFE QUESTION IS, DO YOU APPROVE THE COURT?
OFTEN THAT'S INTERPRETED OF AS, DO YOU LIKE THE RECENT DECISION?
WE ALL THINK THE SUPREME COURT IS A BIT HIGHER IN TERMS OF IMPORTANCE BECAUSE OF ITS JURISPRUDENCE RULE OF LAW AND THE IDEA THAT IT STANDS ABOVE POLITICS AND ADJUDICATES FAIRLY.
THAT SEEMS TO BE IN DECLINE.
I KNOW THAT'S ALSO A CONCERN OF YOURS AND WHAT YOU HAVE FOCUSED ON IN YOUR BOOK.
IT IS.
LET ME JUST READ YOU THIS.
YOUR CLOSE FRIEND OR BECAME A CLOSE FRIEND OF YOURS IN THE COURT WAS SANDRA DAY O'CONNOR.
SHE WAS APPOINTED BY RONALD REAGAN.SHE WROTE SOMETHING THATO THE HEART OF ALL OF THIS.
I WANT TO KNOW YOUR REACTION TO IT.
THIS WAS BACK IN 2005.
SHE VOTED WITH HER LIBERAL COLLEAGUES, SUCH AS YOURSELF, IT WAS UNCONSTITUTIONAL FOR A POLITICALLY MOTIVATED TEN COMMANDMENTS BY A KENTUCKY SHE SAID, WE SEE AROUND THE WORLD -- SHE'S WARNING AMERICA ABOUT WHAT THEY SEE AROUND THE WORLD -- THE VIOLENT CONSEQUENCES OF THE ASSUMPTION OF RELIGIOUS AUTHORITY BY GOVERNMENT.
AMERICANS MAY COUNT THEMSELVES FORTUNATE, THOSE WHO WOULD RENEGOTIATE THE BOUNDARY BETWEEN CHURCH AND STATE MUST THEREFORE ANSWER A DIFFICULT QUESTION, QUOTE, WHY WOULD WE TRADE A SYSTEM THAT HAS SERVED US SO WELL FOR ONE THAT HAS SERVED US SO POORLY?
I WANT TO ASK YOU THIS IN TERMS OF WHAT JUST HAPPENED AT THE SUPREME COURT.
IN THE DEAD OF NIGHT, THE SUPREME COURT BASICALLY DECIDED TO PUNT ON THIS TEXAS BANNING OF ABORTION LAW.
SHE WAS RIGHT.
I THINK SHE WAS RIGHT.
I THINK I JOINED THAT OPINION.
THE LAST THREE DECISIONS, WHICH I DISSENTED STRONGLY FROM, DO THEY SHOW A BIG SHIFT IN THE COURT?
I DON'T THINK SO.
THERE ARE ALWAYS DECISIONS WITH WHICH I DISAGREE AND SOMETIMES VERY, VERY, VERY STRONGLY.
THE ONE YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT IS NOT REALLY -- IT'S A PROCEDURAL MATTER.THE COURT THERE DID NOT E ANYTHING CONSTITUTIONALITY OF THE TEXAS IT WAS A QUESTION OF PROCEDURES.
YOU HAVE TO LOOK IT UP TO UNDERSTAND WHY WE DIVIDED ON THAT.
I THOUGHT THEY WERE WRONG.
WHEN I FIRST CAME TO THE COURT, I HAD REALLY NEVER SEEN SO MANY MATTERS WHERE I THOUGHT HOW RIGHT I AM AND HOW WRONG THE OTHER SIDE IS.
THAT'S ALWAYS BEEN TRUE.
BUT WITH A LITTLE TIME, I BEGAN TO HAVE A MORE MATURE ATTITUDE.
THIS IS A BIG COUNTRY, VERY BIG.
331 MILLION PEOPLE.
WE HAVE EVERY RACE, EVERY RELIGION, EVERY POINT OF VIEW IT'S A MIRACLE THAT THIS DOCUMENT, THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES, HAS HELD THESE MILLIONS OF PEOPLE TOGETHER, A VERY DIVERSE GROUP, THINKING SO MANY DIFFERENT THINGS.
WHAT I WOULD SAY MY MORE MATURE ATTITUDE WAS, IT ISN'T SO TERRIBLE IF OVER TIME DIFFERENT JUDGES ON OUR COURT, FOR EXAMPLE, HAVE DIFFERENT WAYS AND DIFFERENT VIEWS ABOUT HOW YOU SHOULD GO ABOUT DECIDING LEGAL QUESTIONS.
IT ISN'T QUITE WHAT YOU NORMALLY MEAN BY THE WORD POLITICAL.
YOU NORMALLY MEAN WHAT I LEARNED THE FEW YEARS I WORKED IN THE YOU HAVE THE VOTES.
ARE YOU REPUBLICAN OR DEMOCRAT?
THAT'S NOT THE WAY THE COURT OPERATES.VE TRIED TO EXPLAIN INE BOOK IN ABOUT 15 OR 20 PAGES -- IT'S A PRETTY SHORT BOOK.
I'VE TRIED TO BE MORE NUANCED AND EXPLAIN WHY I THINK YOU ARE TEMPTED AND OTHER PEOPLE TO USE THE WORD POLITICAL.
I'M TEMPTED TO USE DIFFERENT WORDS LIKE DIFFERENT WAYS OF APPROACHING LAW, DIFFERENT PHILOSOPHIES, LONG, LONG SHIFTS IN VALUES OVER LONG, LONG PERIODS OF TIME.
BASICALLY, ARE YOU SAYING THAT YOU DON'T AGREE THAT THE COURT HAS SHIFTED VERY DRAMATICALLY?
I'M GIVING PEOPY PAST YEARS.HOW I SAW IT OVER 27 WE USED TO GO AND DEBATE IN FRONT OF STUDENTS ABOUT -- OVER TIME.
DO I REALLY SEE -- WHAT'S THE TRUTHFUL ANSWER?
DO I REALLY SEE SOME SHIFT FROM THAT?
BUT HERE IS WHERE YOU HAVE A VERY GOOD POINT.
WE DON'T KNOW.
WE DON'T KNOW.
IT TAKES ANY PERSON APPOINTED TO THAT JOB -- IT'S A TREMENDOUS PRIVILEGE OR HONOR TO BE APPOINTED.
ME, DAVID, SANDRA OR WHOEVER, JUSTICE DOUGLAS SAID IT TOOK FIVE YEARS.
MAYBE IT TAKES THREE.
IT TAKES A NUMBER OF YEARS.
ISN'T THAT THE POINT, THAT IT'S A TREMENDOUS PRIVILEGE AND PEOPLE LIKE YOURSELF NEED TO PARK WHATEVER NATURAL HUMAN INCLINATIONS YOU MIGHT HAVE IN TERMS OF THINKING ABOUT ISSUES, BUT THE FACT IS OVER THE LAST SEVERAL YEARS, WE HAVE COME TO A POSITION WHERE SIX OF THE CURRENT SUPREME COURT JUSTICES ARE CONSIDERED CONSERVATIVE AND PROUDLY SO AND THREE ARE NOW CONSIDERED MORE ON THE LIBERAL SIDE OR LIBERALS?
THAT IS NOT EQUAL BY ANY STRETCH OF THE IMAGINATION.
MANY OF THE ISSUES AND THE ACCESS OF WOMEN TO A SAFE CHOICE OVER WHAT THEY DO WITH THEIR BODY IS A MAJORITY VIEW IN THE UNITED STATES.
THE ATTACKING OF ROE VERSUS WADE IS NOT A DEMOCRATIC SITUATION.
I GUESS I WANT TO ASK YOU, WHEN YOU SAY -- I'M INTERESTED IN WHAT YOU SAY.
WHEN YOU SAY, NO, YOU DON'T THINK IT'S MOTIVATED BY ANY POLITICS, THIS IS WHAT PRESIDENT TRUMP HIMSELF SAID.
HE WANTED TO BE PRESIDENT TO ELECT OR RATHER NOMINATE RELIABLY CONSERVATIVE JUDGES.
THE FEDERALIST SOCIETY WAS HIS MAIN BACKER.
THIS IS WHAT SENATOR WHITEHOUSE SAID.
LET'S PLACE IT AND I WILL GET YOUR VIEW ON IT.
ONE LANE OF ACTIVITY IS THROUGH THE CONDUIT OF THE FEDERALIST SOCIETY.
IT'S MANAGED BY A GUY -- WAS BY A GUY NAMED LEONARD LEO.
IT HAS TAKEN OVER THE SELECTION OF JUDICIAL NOMINEES.
HOW DO WE KNOW THAT TO BE THE CASE?
BECAUSE TRUMP SAID SO OVER AND OVER AGAIN.
HIS WHITE HOUSE COUNSEL SAID SO.
YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT THE SELECTION PROCESS.
I THINK THE SELECTION PROCESS IS POLITICAL.
I THINK IT ALWAYS HAS BEEN REALLY.
THE PERSON SELECTED, HOWEVER, PUTS ON THE ROBES OF THE JUDGE.
ONCE THAT HAPPENS, THE JUDICIAL INSTITUTION TAKE OVER.
IT IS A VERY DIFFERENT WORLD.
MY QUESTION TO YOU WOULD BE THEN, WHY DO YOU NAME YOUR BOOK 'THE AUTHORITY OF THE COURT AND THE PERIL OF POLITICS'? YOU MUST BE CONCERNED.
IN THAT REGARD, I WONDER, WHAT IS YOUR MOST CONCERN OR YOUR BIGGEST CONCERN RIGHT NOW OF WHAT'S IN FRONT OF YOU?
WE HAD ROE VERSUS WADE.
MOST BELIEVE WITH THE MISSISSIPPI CASE COMING UP, IT'S GOING TO PUT ANOTHER NAIL IN THE COFFIN OF THIS FUNDAMENTAL LAW FOR WOMEN'S RIGHTS TO CHOOSE.
WE HAVE SCALING BACK OF VOTER RIGHTS THAT'S BEING ADJUDICATED BY THE COURT.
WE HAVE ALL SORTS OF THINGS, WHETHER HEALTH CARE AND OTHER STUFF.
WHY DO YOU PUT POLITICS AND THE PERIL OF POLITICS IN YOUR TITLE?
WHAT ARE YOUR BIGGEST CONCERNS ABOUT ROLLING BACK THE CLOCK ON THE DOCKET IN FRONT OF YOU OR AHEAD OF YOU?
MY BIGGEST CONCERN AT THE MOMENT IS THE CASE IN FRONT OF ME USUALLY.
A FEW ARE VERY CONCERNING.
I DON'T DOUBT THAT.
THERE HAVE BEEN TERRIBLE CASES -- DECISIONS IN THE HISTORY OF OUR COURT.
SEPARATE BUT EQUAL SEGREGATION.
TRY THAT ONE.
THERE HAVE BEEN SOME TERRIBLE DECISIONS.
THAT'S WHY THE JOB AND THE QUESTION OF THE WOMAN FROM GHANA, THE CHIEF JUSTICE, WAS SO WHAT I SAID TO HER, YOU DON'T HAVE TO CONVINCE THE JUDGES.
YOU DON'T HAVE TO CONVINCE THE LAWYERS.
THEY ALREADY THINK A RULE OF LAW IS A GOOD IDEA.
YOU HAVE TO GO TO VILLAGES, TO TOWNS, TO ORDINARY PEOPLE.
SO A RULE OF LAW HAS LOTS OF DISADVANTAGES, LOTS.
BUT IT ALSO HAS SOME ADVANTAGES.
THOSE ARE IMPORTANT.
NAMELY, KEEPING US TOGETHER.
THAT'S WHY IF THERE'S A SINGLE POINT IN THIS BOOK WHICH IS SO TRITE BUT SO TRUE, IT IS THE IMPORTANCE OF TEACHING THE NEXT GENERATION, MY CHILDREN -- NO, MY GRANDCHILDREN, YOURS WHEN YOU HAVE THEM, THEY'RE THE ONES THAT ARE GOING TO HAVE TO SOLVE THE PROBLEMS OF THIS COUNTRY.
THEY'RE THE ONES THAT ARE GOING TO HAVE TO DEAL WITH ENVIRONMENT, WITH HEALTH, WITH INTERNATIONAL COMMERCE, WITH ALL KINDS OF PROBLEMS THAT EXTEND BEYOND BORDERS.
WHAT YOU SAY IS MASSIVELY IMPORTANT.WE ALL BELIEVE IN THEF LAW.
THAT'S WHY WE LOOK TO THE UNITED STATES WITH SUCH JEALOUS POSSESSIVENESS OF YOUR CONSTITUTION.
DO YOU THINK INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS ARE AT RISK, FOR INSTANCE, AFTER OR AROUND THE ATTACK ON CONGRESS JANUARY 6?
WHAT I'M TRYING TO SAY IS, ARE YOU WORRIED ABOUT A THREAT --
OF COURSE.
EVERYONE IS WORRIED ALL THE LOOK, YOU KNOW WHAT I SUGGEST YOU READ?
IT'S REALLY WORTHWHILE.
MY WIFE GAVE EACH OF OUR GRANDCHILDREN $20, I THINK, IF THEY WOULD MEMORIZE THIS.
THE THING TO MEMORIZE IS LINCOLN'S GETTYSBURG ADDRESS.
YOU KNOW WHY?
BECAUSE HE ANSWERS YOUR QUESTION.
HE SAYS, WE ARE HERE IN THE CIVIL WAR, HE SAYS, TO SEE WHETHER THIS NATION OR ANY NATION SO CONCEIVED AND SO DEDICATED -- I MEAN, CONCEIVED IN LIBERTY AND DEDICATED TO THE PROPOSITION THAT ALL MEN AND WOMEN ARE CREATED EQUAL.
SO CONCEIVED AND SO DEDICATED CAN LONG ENDURE.
GEORGE WASHINGTON PUT IT IN TERMS OF AN EXPERIMENT.
OF COURSE, IT'S AN EXPERIMENT.
IT'S STILL AN EXPERIMENT.
THAT'S WHAT I WANT THOSE GRANDCHILDREN TO UNDERSTAND.
THAT'S WHY I EMPHASIZE IT.
IT'S CORNY BUT IT'S TRUE.
IT'S UP TO THEM TO CARRY THAT EXPERIMENT ON.
DO YOU BELIEVE AND WOULD YOU LIKE TO SEE ANY REFORM CURRENTLY IN THE SELECTION PROCESS OR THE MAKEUP OR WHAT THE SUPREME COURT LOOKS LIKE?
THERE'S SO MANY --
OF COURSE, I WOULD LIKE TO SEE -- I MEAN, OF COURSE, I WOULD LIKE -- I WOULD LIKE TO SEE LESS CONTROVERSY IN THE POLITICAL WORLD.
I WOULD LIKE TO SEE LESS DIVISION IN THIS COUNTRY.
WHEN I WORKED IN THE SENATE AND BEGIN TO THINK -- THAT WAS MANY YEARS AGO, BUT I WORKED ON THE STAFF OF SENATOR KENNEDY.
ONE THING I CAME AWAY WITH WAS WHEN THE PUBLIC THAT ELECTS THE SENATORS IS AND CONGRESSMEN COME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT THEY WANT TO SEE LESS FIGHTING AND MORE AGREEMENT, THAT WILL HAPPEN.
THE SENATORS AND MEMBERS OF CONGRESS TAKE THE ACTIONS THEY THINK THEIR CONSTITUENTS WANT.
WHEN I'M TALKING TO THE COLLEGE STUDENTS I SAY, MY FRIENDS, I LEARNED FROM SENATOR KENNEDY ONE THING THAT I THINK IS IMPORTANT.
MAYBE MORE BUT AT LEAST ONE.
THAT IS, LISTEN TO PEOPLE WHODI.
IF YOU LISTEN LONG ENOUGH, YOU WILL FIND ON SOMETHING THEY AGREE WITH YOU.
THEN WHEN YOU GET THAT, YOU SAY, LET'S WORK WITH THAT.
LET'S WORK WITH IT.
YOU WORK WITH IT AND TRY TO PRODUCE SOMETHING POSITIVE.
SOMETHING THAT MAYBE GIVES YOU 30% OF WHAT YOU WANT BUT BETTER 30% THAN 100% OF NOTHING.
YOU ARE GOING TO GET REALLY MORE IRRITATED WITH ME NOW.
I'M NOT IRRITATED.
I'M GOING TO ASK YOU ABOUT RETIREMENT.
ONE THING I'VE LEARNED IS NOT TO GET IRRITATED.
RUTH BADER GINSBURG, THE BELOVED JUSTICE, WAS CRITICIZED AFTERWARDS WHEN SHE DIDN'T ACTUALLY RETIRE IN ORDER TO GIVE THE SITTING PRESIDENT THE ABILITY, WHO WAS A DEMOCRAT, TO APPOINT A DIFFERENT AND A NEW PEOPLE ARE ASKING THE SAME ABOUT YOU.
YOU HAVE NOT ANSWERED IT.
YOU SAID, I DON'T WANT TO DIE ON THE COURT.
I DON'T THINK I'M GOING TO BE HERE FOREVER.
MAYBE THAT'S PART OF YOUR ANSWER.LET ME TRY TO GET YOUR TT PROCESS.
THEY SAY YOU ARE BEST KNOWN FOR YOUR RATIONAL COST BENEFIT ANALYSIS TO GOVERNMENT ACTION.
WHAT IS YOUR RATIONAL COST BENEFIT ANALYSIS TO THE IDEA OF WHAT MIGHT BE BEST FOR YOU, THE COURT, THE COUNTRY IN DECIDING WHEN TO VACATE THE SPACE?
YOU ARE QUITE RIGHT.
I'M SORRY TO BE SO DIFFICULT.
BUT THIS IS NOT REALLY ABOUT MY LEAVING THE COURT.
I DON'T WANT TO GO BEYOND, IN THIS INTERVIEW, WHAT I'VE SAID BEFORE, WHICH YOU HAVE ENCAPSULATED PRETTY WELL.
OKAY.
I WILL LET YOU GET AWAY WITH IT.
JUSTICE STEPHEN BREYER, THANKH.
THANKS FOR HAVING THIS CONVERSATION WITH US.
THANK YOU.
> SOME OF THE ISSUES BEFORE THE SUPREME COURT, CIVIL RIGHTS, VOTING RIGHTS, SLAVERY FORM THE HEART OF MY NEXT GUEST'S STORYTELLING.
THE AUTHOR IS OUT WITH A NEW ONE.
A THRILLING TALE OF A FURNITURE SALESMAN WHO FINDS HIMSELF WRAPPED UP IN HEISTS AND CONTENDING WITH DOUBLE CROSSES IN CIVIL RIGHTS ERA NEW YORK.
IT'S CALLED 'HARLEM SHUFFLE.'
HE JOINS ME NOW FROM NEW YORK.
COLSON WHITEHEAD, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
I DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH OF THAT INTERVIEW YOU HEARD.
HE DOES TALK, THE SUPREME COURT JUSTICE, ABOUT MANY OF THE ISSUES THAT YOU CARE AND YOU WRITE ABOUT.
WONDERED WHAT YOU THOUGHT OF SOME OF HIS ANSWERS ON WHERE THE COURT IS, WHERE THOSE ISSUES ARE, LIKE VOTING RIGHTS, WOMEN'S RIGHTS, AND HIS CONVICTION THAT IT'S NOT ABOUT PARTY POLITICS WHEN IT COMES TO SITTING ON THAT BENCH.
WELL, I THINK AFTER WRITING ABOUT SLAVERY AND JIM CROW THAT A LOT OF THESE GAMES IN '64 AND '65 ARE VERY PRECIOUS.
WE HAVE TO PROTECT THEM.
JUST BECAUSE YOU MAKE AN ADVANCEMENT TO MAKE PROGRESS FORWARD DOESN'T MEAN THAT THOSE GAINS ARE PERMANENT.
SOMETIMES THE PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT NECESSARILY THE GREAT ACTORS ARE SUPREME COURT JUSTICES.
LET'S TRANSITION INTO WHY YOU ARE WITH US, AND THAT IS TO TALK ABOUT 'HARLEM SHUFFLE.'
YOU TRIED ANOTHER GENRE.
YOU HAVE BEEN ALL OVER SOCIETY WITH YOUR WRITING.
I WANT TO READ FROM A REVIEWER WHO -- ONE SAID, YOU RENDERED A HARLEM THAT'S FAMILIAR AND ENTIRELY OPAQUE TO THE UNTRAINED GAZE.
DO YOU KNOW WHAT THAT REVIEWER MEANS?
WHAT IS THE UNTRAINED GAZE THAT YOU ARE TRYING TO REVEAL?
I MUST HAVE MISSED THAT REVIEW.
I ASSUME THE REST WAS GOOD.
FOR ME, I CAME TO WRITE ABOUT HARLEM AS SOMEONE WHO LIVED THERE AS A SMALL CHILD.
I SPENT A LOT OF TIME THERE IN MY ADULT YEARS.
I HAD TO GO AND ACTUALLY MAKE IT FOR ME AND CHOOSE THE READER.
A LOT OF RESEARCH, WHETHER I'M WRITING ABOUT PLANTATIONS IN GEORGIA OR HARLEM, I HAVE TO DO LEG WORK.
I'M TRYING TO MAKE IT REAL FOR PEOPLE WHO DON'T KNOW WHAT THE PLACE IS ACTUALLY ABOUT.
LET'S JUST PURSUE THAT.
YOU SAID, I HOPE THE REF WAS THE SAME REVIEW -- I HAVE READ OTHERS -- SAID YOU HAD A BRILLIANT CRIME NOVEL THAT DOUBLES ON THE MEDICATION OF BLACK GEOGRAPHY.
LET'S DRILL DOWN.
YOU CHOSE A NOVEL IN HARLEM.
BUT IT'S ALL ABOUT THE SPACE AND THE TIME.
WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO SEE ABOUT THE GEOGRAPHY OF THAT PLACE AT
NEW YORK IS A GREAT DYNAMIC PLACE.
HARLEM REFLECTS THOSE CHANGES.
IT STARTS OFF AS FARMLAND AND PASTURELAND IN THE 19th CENTURY.
SPECULATORS START BUILDING TENEMENTS UPTOWN.
WAVES OF ITALIAN AND IRISH AND JEWISH IMMIGRANTS TRY TO MAKE IT IN THE NEW COUNTRY IN NEW YORK CITY.
THEY MOVE OUT AND SOUTHERN BLACK BLACKS MOVE UP NORTH.
SO IT'S ABOUT A HEIST.
ONCE YOU START BRINGING IN HARLEM AND MAKING IT REAL, IT BECOMES A STORY ABOUT THE CITY AND THE SURVIVORS WHO COME THROUGH.
OKAY.
YOUR MAIN CHARACTER IN THIS HEIST IS A FENCE.
I GUESS HE OFFLOADS THE GOODS.
I KNOW IT'S FROM THE BEGINNING PART OF THE BOOK, A PASSAGE WE ASK YOU TO CHOOSE TO SET THE STAGE.
SURE.
HE OWNS A FURNITURE STORE.
THAT'S HIS FRONT.
HE DABBLES IN ILLEGAL PART OF THE STORY IS THIS MAPPING OF THE ARC OF HIS DISSENT INTO A MORE CRIMINAL LIFESTYLE. WAS ONLY SLIGHTLY BEN IT CAME TO BEING CROOKED IN PRACTICE AND AMBITION.
THE ODD PIECE OF JEWELRY, ELECTRONIC APPLIANCES, A FEW LOCAL CHARACTERS BROUGHT BY THE STORE, HE COULD JUSTIFY.
NOTHING MAJOR.
NOTHING THAT ATTRACTED UNDO ATTENTION TO THE STORE.
HE GOT A THRILL OUT OFE WORLD.
TRANSFORMING THE ILL GOTTEN HE WAS IN CONTROL OF IT AND NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND.
DIZZYING AND POWERFUL AS IT WAS.
EVERYONE HAD SECRET CORNERS AND ALLEYS NO ONE ELSE SAW.
WHAT MATTERED WAS THE STUFF THAT SHOWED UP.
THE THING INSIDE HIM THAT GAVE A YELL OR TUG OR SHOUT WAS NOT THE SAME THING HIS FATHER HAD, THAT SICKNESS DRAWING EVERY MOMENT INTO A SERVICE.
IT'S WONDERFUL.
I LOVE AND I'M SURE EVERYBODY LOVES THE LINE, HE WAS ONLY SLIGHTLY BENT WHEN IT CAME TO BEING CROOKED IN PRACTICE AND I THINK THAT'S REALLY WONDERFUL.
ARE YOU TRYING TO SAY IN EVERYONE, THERE'S A SPECTRUM OF BEING BENT IN THIS REGARD?
I MEAN, HE GREW UP WITH HIS FATHER AS A CROOK.
THAT WAS HIS MODEL FOR MANHOOD.
HE DECIDED TO TURN HIS BACK ON THAT, BECOME A BUSINESSMAN, A FAMILY MAN, HAD THE LIFE HE NEVER HAD AS A CHILD.
I THINK ALL OF US DO HAVE THOSE SECRET ALLEYWAYS AND CORNERS TO OUR PERSONALITY.
WHAT WE SHOW TO THE WORLD AND WHAT WE HAVE INSIDE.
ILLUSTRATING THE PLACES WHERE WE OVERLAP WITH PEOPLE LIKE HIM IS PART OF THE FUN OF WRITING THIS BOOK.
AT THE END OF THE PASSAGE, YOU TALK ABOUT THE GENERATIONS, PARENTS.
WHAT DID YOU LEARN FROM YOUR PARENTS ABOUT THIS PARTICULAR AREA, INCLUDING THE HOTEL I THINK THEY STARTED MARRIED LIFE IN HARLEM, RIGHT?
YEAH.
I WAS BORN IN '69.
THE BOOK TAKES PLACE IN THE EARLY '60s.
I DIDN'T REALIZE I WAS WRITING ABOUT THEIR HARLEM.
AND MY FRIENDS' PARENTS HARLEM.
THEY WERE NEWLYWEDS, STARTING A FAMILY AND THEIR OWN BUSINESS.
I WAS WRITING THE BOOK AND DOING I FOUND OUT ABOUT THE HOTEL THERESA.
WHICH WAS WAS THE WALDORF OF HARLEM.
IN THE FIRST FLOOR WAS CHOCK FULL OF NUTS.
I TALKED TO MY MOM ABOUT IT.
SHE SAID, I WORKED AROUND THE EACH TIME I WOULD FIND THESE NUGGETS OF LORE.
I WOULD TELL MY MOM ABOUT THEM.
SHE WOULD GIVE HER PERSPECTIVE.
I SHOULD HAVE BEEN TALKING TO HER AND NOT THE ARCHIVES IN SOME PLACES.
CAN I ASK YOU ABOUT THE COUNTERINTUITIVE NATURE OF VARIOUS STORYTELLING, PARTICULARLY YOURS AND OTHERS ABOUT WHAT MAY BE OUTSIDERS THINK OF HARLEM AND SOME OF THE STEREOTYPES AND CLICHES?
IT JUST SO HAPPENS THIS SUMMER WE SAW THE RELEASE OF THAT HIDDEN DOCUMENTARY, WHICH HOPEFULLY GAVE A WIDER GROUP A VIEW OF HARLEM THAT IS COMPLETELY OUTSIDE THE STEREOTYPE, A CLOSE COMMUNITY, THE WONDERFUL MUSIC AND ARTISTRY, THE COMMUNITY AND WONDERFUL TIME THAT THAT INCREDIBLE CONFLICT TOOK PLACE WHILE THERE WAS MORE NEGATIVITY GOING ON AT WOODSTOCK AT THE SAME TIME.
WE HAVE SEEN FILMS THIS YEAR.
IT SHOWS THE ORDINARY HUMAN LIFE AND RELATIONSHIP OF BLACKS IN HARLEM, WHICH GOES AGAINST THE STEREOTYPE.WONDER WHETHER THAT S YOU AT ALL.
WELL, IT'S A TOTALLY DIFFERENT HARLEM.
TALK ABOUT MY PARENTS' HARLEM.
THERE'S MY HARLEM WALKING THROUGH, DOING LOCATIONNG.
I AM CHARTING THE DECLINE.
IF YOU WALK DOWN 125th STREET NOW, YOU SEE THE BIG CHAIN STORES THAT ARE EVERYWHERE.
GENTRIFICATION HAS REVITALIZED AND CHANGED AND ALTERED THE LANDSCAPE.
ONE OF THE GREAT THINGS ABOUT THE INTERNET IS THAT AMATEUR PHOTOGRAPHERS UPLOAD THEIR FILM.
I CAN GO TO YOUTUBE AND PUT IN 1960 HARLEM SCENE AND SOME AMATEUR PHOTOGRAPHER HAS VIDEO OF 125th STREET IN 1963.
A LOT OF IF YOU WALK IT NOW, IT'S A MAGIC JOHNSON MULTIPLEX.
THERE'S A NIKE STORE.
THERE'S THE HARLEM RENAISSANCE, THE DECLINE OF HIGH CRIME.
THERE'S THIS CURRENT HARLEM INCARNATION WHERE WE HAVE ALL SORTS OF PEOPLE WALKING AROUND.
ALL THAT IS CONTAINED IN THAT SMALL GEOGRAPHICAL SPACE.
LET ME MOVE ON TO THE IDEA OF PARENTING.ALKED ABOUT IT A LITT.
IT DOES FEATURE OBVIOUSLY IN 'HARLEM SHUFFLE.'
IT FEATURES IN 'UNDERGROUND RAILROAD.'
IT'S ALL ABOUT THE MOTHER'S LEGACY, THE MOTHER WHO ABANDONED HER, A BIG PART OF THE STORY.
WE HEARD FROM BARRY JENKINS THAT HE BELIEVES -- HE SAYS IT OUTRIDE -- THOSE WHO WERE ENSLAVED IN AMERICA SHOWED THE GREATEST ACT, THE MOST HEROIC ACT OF INDIVIDUAL AND COLLECTIVE PARENTING THAT PERHAPS HISTORY HAS KNOWN.
DO YOU AGREE WITH HIM?
WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THAT?
GIVEN IT IS A FEATURE IN MANY OF YOUR NOVELS.
SURE.
THE MAIN CHARACTER IN 'UNDERGROUND RAILROAD' IS CORA.
SHE RUNS NORTH TO ESCAPE THE PLANTATION WHERE SHE HAS BEEN ENSLAVED AND BRUTALIZED.
PART OF THE STORY IS THE COURAGE TO IMAGINEE STORY IS THE COURAGE FREEDOM.
SHE HAS TO IMAGINE IN ORDER TO LIVE THAT THERE'S A PLACE WITHE.
THE CHILDREN CAN BE SOLD OFF, THEY CAN BE BRUTALIZED BY THE MASTER.
STAYING IS AN ACT OF COURAGE.
IT'S PART OF THE HISTORY.
HOW THIS CHARACTER, WHO HAS BEEN DAMAGED BY HOW HE WAS PARENTED, STEP UP AND BECOME A BETTER FATHER AND BETTER MAN.
I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT THE EMOTIONAL IMPACT ON YOURSELF ABOUT WRITING AND ABOUT -- I WOULD SAY EQUAL BURDEN OF SUCCESS COMPARED TO FAILURE.
YOU HAVE BEEN TWICE A WINNER OF THE PULITZER PRIZE.
YOU HAVE BEEN OPRAH-ED AS I SAY.
YOU WERE CHOSEN FOR HER BOOK THAT'S A POWERFUL THING TO BE THE RECIPIENT OF THE GLOBAL OPRAH AFFECT.
YOU HAVE SAID ABOUT FEELING EXHAUSTED AND DEPRESSED.
THOSE I BELIEVE ARE YOUR WORDS AFTER WRITING BOOKS.
TELL ME WHY AND HOW MUCH THIS REALLY HARD STUFF THAT YOU WRITE, A LOT OF IT ANYWAY, AFFECTS YOU ON -- YEAH, AFFECTS YOU.
YEAH.
I USUALLY WRITE A HEAVIER BOOK AND THEN A LIGHTER BOOK.
I LIKE WRITING JOKES.
HUMOR IS A BIG PART.
I CHOSE IT BECAUSE IT WAS THE EARLY PART OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.D TO WRESTLE WITN IDEAS ABOUT WHETHER AMERICA WAS HEADED THE RIGHT WAY OR WERE WE ON A VERY TERRIBLE GROOVE THAT WE CAN'T ESCAPE?
WHEN I GOT TO THE END, I HAD SET MY CHARACTERS OUT ON THIS TRAGIC PATH TWO YEARS BEFORE.
THE CLOSER I GOT TO THE ENDING, THE MORE DEPRESSED I GOT.
I WAS JUST DEALING WITH AMERICAN HISTORY, SLAVERY OR JIM CROW, FOR FIVE YEARS.
STEPPING INTO THE WORLD OF RAY WAS RELIEF.
I HAD ROOM TO JOKE AND WITH THE SUPPORTING CAST, A CRIME NOVEL HAS A DIFFERENT IMPERATIVE THAN A NOVEL ABOUT SLAVERY AND JIM CROW.
THAT'S MY REACTION IN TERMS OF THE MATERIAL.
IN TERMS OF THE UPS AND DOWNS IN ONE'S CAREER -- I HAVE BEEN UP AND I'VE BEEN LAID LOW A FEW TIMES.
IT DOESN'T GET EASIER TO WRITE THE PAGE THE NEXT DAY.
WHETHER THINGS ARE GOING YOUR WAY OR NOT EXACTLY AS PLANNED.
YOU STILL HAVE TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO FIX THE PARAGRAPH, THE SENTENCE.ARE ALWAYS STARTING FR.
OF COURSE, I'M GLAD WHEN PEOPLE APPRECIATE THE BOOKS.
IT DOESN'T MAKE THE WORK ANY EASIER OR HARDER.
YOU MUST BE LOOKING FOR SOME MORE -- MORE THE LIGHTER SIDE.
YOU HAVE CHOSEN FOR THE FIRST TIME TO WRITE THE SEQUEL.
THE SAME CHARACTER WILL APPEAR.
TELL US ABOUT IT, IF YOU CAN.
QUICK, QUICK.
IS THAT WHY YOU ARE DOING IT?
SURE.
USUALLY I WRITE FOR -- AN OUTLINE FOR A FEW MONTHS AND WRITE FOR A YEAR AND A BIT AND THAT'S ONE PROJECT.
I FELL IN LOVE WITH THIS WORLD.
I KNEW HALFWAY THROUGH 'HARLEM SHUFFLE' I WANTED TO CONTINUE.
THE 1970s IS A VERY DIFFERENT NEW YORK THAN THE '60s.
THERE'S A FISCAL CRISIS, CRIME IS AT AN ALL-TIME HIGH.
THERE'S MORE TO TELL.
IT'S GREAT AFTER WRITING FOR 25 YEARS TO FIND A NEW WAY OF DOING THINGS.
WE WILL BE WAITING AND WATCHING FOR THAT.
CONGRATULATIONS.
THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US.
> NEXT, WASHINGTON, WHERE TOP MILITARY LEADERS TESTIFIED FOR A SECOND DAY ON THE WITHDRAWAL FROM AFGHANISTAN.
WITH GENERAL MARK MILLEY REVEALING PRESIDENT TRUMP ORDERED THE WITHDRAWAL OF ALL U.S. TROOPS FROM AFGHANISTAN BY JANUARY 15th, BEFORE WALKING THAT DECISION BACK DAYS LATER.
GENERAL MILLEY HAS ADDRESSED AND DEFENDED HIS ACTIONS DURING THE LAST DAYS OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.
HE SPECIFICALLY SPOKE ABOUT NEW DETAILS IN 'PERIL,' THE REPORTING BY WOODWARD AND COSTA.
DESPITE CRITICISM, HE SAYS HE DOESN'T REGRET SPEAKING TO WOODWARD.
WOODWARD, OF COURSE, AS WE KNOW, IS THE AWARD WINNING INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST KNOWN FOR HIS WORK ON THE WATERGATE HERE HE IS TALKING WITH WALTER ISAACSON.
THANK YOU.
BOB, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.
THANK YOU.
GENERAL MILLEY JUST GAVE SOME EXTRAORDINARY TESTIMONY.
AMONG OTHER THINGS HE CONFIRMED WHAT YOU AND BOB COSTA HAD IN YOUR NEW BOOK 'PERIL.'
HE SAID HE MADE THE PHONE CALLS THAT YOUR BOOK OPENS WITH WITH THE CHINESE LEADER WITH THE FULL AUTHORITY OF THE SECRETARY OF DEFENSE, BRIEFING THE WHITE HOUSE AND THE SECRETARY OF COME IN ON THAT, IF YOU WOULD, AND WHAT YOU THOUGHT OF HIS TESTIMONY.
I THOUGHT -- WE ARE HEARD SOME THINGS, BUT WE HAD NOT BEEN ABLE TO CONFIRM THEM.
I'M SURE, BECAUSE HIS TESTIMONY WAS SO ACCURATE, SAYING THIS UNDER OATH, THAT THAT OCCURRED.
THAT HE HAD INSTRUCTIONS OR KNOWLEDGE OF THE SENIOR PEOPLE.
HE BRIEFED THE SECRETARY OF STATE.
HOW COME THE SECRETARY OF STATE AND OTHERS, IF THIS WAS SO BAD, DIDN'T PUSH BACK?
WELL, I THINK THEY KIND OF -- MILLEY CARRIED THE BALL.
WE FIND AND SHOW IN THE BOOK, SECRETARY OF STATE WAS POMPEO.
FINALLY INTO NOVEMBER AND THE DAYS AFTER THE ELECTION, POMPEO'S TELLING MILLEY THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP IS IN A DARK PLACE AND, QUOTE THE CRAZIES ARE TAKING OVER.
YOUR BOOK HAS WONDERFUL SCENES IN WHICH THESE THINGS ARE EXPLAINED.
IT'S ALSO A BIGGER MORALITY PLAY.
THE BIG REMINDED ME OF SOMETHING LIKE THE PLAY WHICH PITS THE PEOPLE WHO ARE COLLABORATIONISTS, WHO ENABLE THE KING IN POWER, VERSUS THOSE WHO SPEAK TRUTH TO POWER.
IT'S THAT CLASH.
THERE'S SO MANY IN ALL OF US A COLLABORATIONIST INSTINCT AT TIMES.
THE HEROES OF YOUR BOOK ARE THE ONES WHO SAY, NO, LET'S PUSH BACK.
THAT WAS HASKILL, O'BRIEN, WHO
MILLEY.
MILLEY WAS THE ACTIVIST HERE.
HE SAW IT.
BACK BEFORE THE ELECTION, GETS THIS CALL WHICH HE CONFIRMED THIS WEEK AND TALKS TO THE CHINESE -- HEAD OF THE CHINESE MILITARY, GENERAL LEE.
LEE SAID, WHAT THE -- THIS IS TWO DAYS AFTER THE INSURRECTION.
IT'S JANUARY 8.
LEE SAYS, WHAT'S GOING ON IN THE UNITED STATES?
IS IT COLLAPSING?
CHINESE GO ON ALERT AGAIN.
IT TURNS OUT IRAN WENT ON ALERT.
RUSSIA WENT ON ALERT.
MILLEY IS SAYING, MY GOD, I'VE GOT TO CONVINCE THESE PEOPLE THAT EVERYTHING IS FINE.
IN THE MIDST OF THIS, SAME DAY, HE GETS THIS CALL FROM NANCY PELOSI IN WHICH WE HAVE A TRANSCRIPT.
NANCY PELOSI IS SAYING WITH A KIND OF ALMOST CINEMATIC CLARITY, YOU KNOW TRUMP IS CRAZY.
HE COULD LAUNCH NUCLEAR WEAPONS.
WHAT IS THE GUARANTEE?
MILLEY SAYS, NO, DON'T WORRY, PROCEDURES ARE FINE.
THEN IT GOES ON.
HE REALIZES THAT SHE'S GOT A ONE OF THE MOST EXTRAORDINARY SCENES, HE CALLS IN THE PEOPLE AT THE NATIONAL MILITARY COMMAND CENTER, THE PENTAGON WAR ROOM AND SAYS, IF YOU GET AN ORDER FROM ANYONE, INCLUDING PRESIDENT TRUMP, I HAVE TO BE IN ON IT.
AS YOU KNOW WELL FROM YOUR KISSINGER BOOK, THIS DIDN'T HAPPEN ANY OTHER TIME THAT WE KNOW OF, EXCEPT 1974, WHEN SECRETARY OF DEFENSE WAS WORRIED ABOUT NEXT ON GOING AROUND THE BEND AND DID THE SAME THING, ISSUED ORDERS, NO ONE TAKE DIRECTIVE FROM NIXON OR THE WHITE HOUSE WITHOUT INVOLVING HIM.
THIS IS, AS WE REPORTED IT OUT, MILLEY IS ALARMED.
NOW PEOPLE HAVE READ THIS BOOK ARE ALARMED.
THIS WAS A NATIONAL SECURITY CRISIS.
THIS WAS NOT JUST A DOMESTIC WHAT IS FASCINATING, ONE ASPECT IS THAT MILLEY ALONE ALERTED THE NATIONAL SECURITY STATE, CIA, NSA, CHIEFS, ADMIRAL RUNNING OPERATIONS AROUND CHINA, AND THE WORLD DIDN'T KNOW WE WERE ON THE EDGE, IN PERIL.
WHAT SURPRISED YOU ABOUT GENERAL MILLEY'S TESTIMONY THIS WEEK?
YOU KNOW, THIS IS VERY INTERESTING.
HE ISSUED A STATEMENT SAYING WHAT HE SAID TO PELOSI.
THEN HE ADDED, WHICH WAS NOT IN THE STATEMENT.
I AM NOT QUALIFIED TO DETERMINE THE MENTAL HEALTH OF A PRESIDENT
YOU KNOW MILLEY.S.
WHY WOULD HE ADD THAT?
WELL, I THINK IT'S TRUE.
I THINK HE IS NOT QUALIFIED.
AS WE KNOW IN OUR LIVES, PEOPLE WILL SAY SO AND SO IS CRAZY, THAT'S CRAZY.
WE'RE NOT QUALIFIED TO MAKE A MEDICAL OR PSYCHOLOGICAL ESTIMATE.
IS IT PART OF HIS ROLE AS CHAIRMAN OF JOINT CHIEFS IF HE COMMUNICATED A NUCLEAR ORDER TO FIGURE OUT WHETHER THE PRESIDENT IS TRULY SANE IN DOING IT?
I THINK IT IS.
I THINK THE RESPONSIBLE COURSE -- HE DID NOT TAKE AWAY ANY POWER, CONSTITUTIONAL POWER THAT THE PRESIDENT HAD AS COMMANDER IN CHIEF.
HE MERELY SAID, I MUST BE INVOLVED.HE IS IN THAT VERY UNIE ADJACENT TO THE CHAIN OF COMMAND, NOT IN THE CHAIN OF COMMAND.WHEN HE CALLS ADMIRAL DN ON JANUARY 8 TO SAY, I'M NOT -- HE REMINDS HIM, I'M NOT IN THE CHAIN OF COMMAND.
I CAN'T ORDER YOU.
BUT IT WOULD BE BEST IF YOU POSTPONE OR CANCEL THE AGGRESSIVE MILITARY EXERCISES THAT ARE GOING ON IN THE SOUTH CHINA SEA AND AROUND TAIWAN.
THE ADMIRAL AGREES IMMEDIATELY AND POSTPONES THAT EXERCISE.
THOSE EXERCISES.
THIS IS CLEARLY SOMEONE WHO IS ALARMED.
HE GOES TO THE JOINT CHIEFS AND SAYS, WATCH EVERYTHING.
WOULD WE WORRY IF THAT HAD HAPPENED WITH ROGUE GENERALS DOING THAT TO A MAINSTREAM PRESIDENT?
I THINK YOU WOULDN'T SEE -- I DON'T SEE ANY EVIDENCE -- MAYBE THERE WILL BE EVIDENCE THAT SURFACES AT SOME POINT, THAT THIS WAS A ROGUE OPERATION.
AS WE REPORTED IT -- IF YOU GO BACK INTO THE BOOK AND SEE ALL OF THE SCREAMING FITS THAT TRUMP HAD, I MEAN, THIS IS -- WHAT TRUMP IS SAYING ABOUT THE ELECTION AND INSISTING IT WAS STOLEN AND WE PRESENT EVIDENCE THAT REBUTS THAT, AS COMPLETELY AS YOU CAN FROM TRUMP'S CLOSEST ADVISERS, CLOSEST SUPPORTERS, SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM OF SOUTH CAROLINA AND SENATOR MIKE LEE OF UTAH, THEY TAKE THE MEMOS THAT THEY GET, WHICH WE GOT, WHICH WE PRODUCED FOR THE FIRST TIME, AND YOU SEE THESE STAUNCH SUPPORTERS LOOKING AT THE EVIDENCE AND SAYING, THERE IS ZERO EVIDENCE OF ANY STOLEN ELECTION.
BOB AND I SPENT A LOT TIME LOOKING AT THIS.
MAYBE THERE WOULD BE EVIDENCE OF A STOLEN ELECTION.
WE FOUND NONE IN TRUMP'S CLOSEST SUPPORTERS IN THIS CASE.
LET ME GO THROUGH SOME OF THE CHARACTERS IN YOUR BOOK.
THEY FALL INTO THIS DIVIDE OF ENABLER, COLLABORATIONIST OR PEOPLE WILLING TO STAND UP AND TELL TRUTH.
ONE IS BILL BARR, THE ATTORNEY GENERAL.
GIVE ME YOUR THUMBNAIL WHAT YOU
YOU ARE FAMILIAR WITH THIS IN WASHINGTON, WHERE SOME -- HE WAS SUPPORTIVE OF TRUMP.
HE WANTED TRUMP TO WIN IN 2020.
BUT HE GAVE HIM SOME CANDID ADVICE.
BARR SAID IN AN EXTRAORDINARY MEETING WITH TRUMP LAST YEAR, PRESIDENT TRUMP, BARR SAID, I TRAVEL AROUND THE COUNTRY AS MUCH AS ANY CABINET OFFICER.
YOU HAVE SUPPORT THERE.
I TALK TO YOUR SUPPORTERS.
BUT, MR. PRESIDENT, LET ME TELL YOU, THEY THINK YOU ARE AN F-ING A-HOLE.
LAID IT RIGHT OUT.
SAID, YOU'VE GOT TO CHANGE IF YOU WANT TO BE RE-ELECTED.
OF COURSE, TRUMP DID NOT.
THEN BARR PRAISED TRUMP WHEN HE RESIGNED LATER IN DECEMBER OF LAST YEAR.
LIKE MANY FIGURES, THEY TAKE BOTH POSITIONS.
BUT HE GAVE -- PEOPLE HAVE WRITTEN ABOUT THIS, HAVING LOOKED AT THE BOOK, THAT SOME OF BARR'S ADVICE WAS PRETTY GOOD TO
ONE OF THE PEOPLE ON THE MOST COLLABORATIONIST AND STOKING UP ENABLING SIDE WAS RUDY GIULIANI.
SEEN WITH THE HAIR DYE STREAMING DOWN HIS FACE.
HE IS THE ONE IN YOUR BOOK THAT STOKES UP THE PRESIDENT, WHO MIGHT NOT HAVE DONE THIS.
WERE YOU SURPRISED ABOUT WHAT YOU FOUND ABOUT GIULIANI'S SORT OF CREEPY BEHAVIOR?
WELL, IT'S NOT JUST CREEPY.
IT'S BOGUS IN MANY WAYS.
WE HAVE HIS MEMOS THAT HE SENT TO LINDSEY GRAHAM IN WHICH MAKE CLAIMS THAT THOUSANDS OF PRISONERS VOTED.
THERE'S NO EVIDENCE OF THAT.
IT ALL EVAPORATED.
BUT YOU SEE GIULIANI IN ONE DAY IN THE WHITE HOUSE SAYING, I HAVE EIGHT AFFIDAVITS TO SUPPORT MY POSITION AND THEN I THINK IN THE SAME DAY HE JUST DECLARES, IT'S 28 AFFIDAVITS.
THEN I THINK AT THE END OF THAT DAY HE SAYS, I HAVE 80 AFFIDAVITS.
WELL, NOT TRUE.
TRUMP TOOK IT, BELIEVED IT, STAKED THE WHOLE YEAR ON THE CLAIM OF THE STOLEN ELECTION.
EASTMAN WHO WROTE THE MEMO, WHICH IS REALLY A BLUEPRINT FOR TRYING TO GET PENCE TO THROW THE ELECTION IN A WAY.
PEOPLE HAVE LANDED ON THAT, SAID, THIS IS ALMOST -- THIS IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL.
THIS IS -- THERE IT IS.
EASTMAN SAYING IN THE MEMO THAT HE GIVES THE SENATOR LEE, SAYING THERE'S SEVEN STATES THAT HAVE ALTERNATIVE ELECTORS.
LEE SAID, WOW, THAT'S AMAZING.
HE SPENT DAYS, AS YOU KNOW -- A SENATOR CAN GET ANYONE ON THE PHONE.
CALLING AROUND TO PEOPLE WHO RAN THE LEGISLATURES IN ARIZONA, WISCONSIN, PENNSYLVANIA AND GEORGIA.
EVERYONE SAID, NOTHING.
DOES NOT EXIST.
THERE ARE NO ALTERNATIVE IT'S NOT A MATTER OF IT BEING UNTRUE.
THE ALLEGATION EVAPORATES.
IT'S NOTHING.
MICHAEL PENCE AS VICE PRESIDENT STOOD UP AND DID THE RIGHT THING AND CERTIFIED THE ELECTION AFTER THAT HORRIBLE INSURRECTION.
IN YOUR BOOK, IT WAS A CLOSER CALL THAN I THOUGHT IT WAS.
HOW DANGEROUS WAS THAT?
IT WAS.
AGAIN, PENCE IS SOMEBODY WHO RODE BOTH HORSES.
HE WAS TRYING TO ACCOMMODATE TRUMP, IF POSSIBLE.
WE CHART IN DETAIL, HE GETS A CALL FROM DAN QUAYLE, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT, WHO IN 1993 HAD TO, ACCORDING TO LAW AND CONSTITUTION, CERTIFY THE ELECTION OF BILL CLINTON AND AL GORE.
HERE IS QUAYLE STANDING UP ESSENTIALLY VALIDATING -- NOT ESSENTIALLY.
VALIDATING THE PROCESS THAT ELECTED CLINTON AND GORE.
SO BUSH SENIOR AND QUAYLE WERE IT'S A REALLY INTERESTING CALL.
HERE IS QUAYLE CITING THE CONSTITUTION, CITING THE LAW TO PENCE.
PENCE IS LOOKING FOR SOME WAY IT ZIGZAGS, QUITE FRANKLY.
IN THE END, HE DID THE CONSTITUTIONAL LEGAL THING.
THERE'S NO CERTAINTY IN THAT.
THE OTHER PEOPLE IN THE BOOK, TWO OF THE LEADERS, KEVIN McCARTHY IN THE HOUSE, MITCH McCONNELL IN THE SENATE, THEY END UP BEING ENABLERS DESPITE THEMSELVES.
IS THE REPUBLICAN PARTY AND ARE PEOPLE LIKE McCARTHY AND McCONNELL GOING TO TRY TO TAKE THE PARTY BACK?
OR HAVE THEY DECIDED THEY HAVE TO MAKE THEIR PEACE WITH TRUMP?
WE SHOW THAT THEY BOTH DISDAIN TRUMP IN PRIVATE.
SOMETIMES QUITE DIRECTLY.
THEN PUBLICALLY ARE BEHIND HIM AND USING HIM AND PARTICULARLY McCONNELL IS VERY HAPPY WITH ALL THE CONSERVATIVE JUDGES THAT HAVE BEEN APPOINTED, NOT JUST TO THE SUPREME COURT, BUT TO THE DISTRICT COURTS AND THE APPELLATE COURTS.
THAT LEGACY IS GOING TO LIVE ON FOR DECADES, QUITE FRANKLY.
TRUMP, IN MY LAST BOOK, I CONCLUDED THAT HE WAS THE WRONG MAN FOR THE JOB.
I THINK WE SEE CONTINUING EVIDENCE OF THAT.
HE IS OUT THERE.MOCRACY.
BOB COSTA, SOMEBODY WHO LOVES THE PUNISHMENT OF REALITY, SEW LISTENS TO TRUMP'S RALLIES.
THEY ARE QUITE SOMETHING.
PEOPLE ARE DISMISSING THEM.
DON'T DISMISS THEM.
HE SAID, WE WILL NEVER GIVE UP.
WE WILL FIGHT FOREVER.
THE PEOPLE IN THE AUDIENCE LOVE IT AND CHEER.
HE IS ESSENTIALLY GOING OUT GIVING WAR SPEECHES.
THE LAST SENTENCE OF YOUR BOOK, HIT ME HARD.
IT'S ONLY TWO WORDS LONG.
TELL ME WHAT THE LAST SENTENCE IS AND WHAT IT MEANS.
PERIL REMAINS.
IT'S NOT OVER.
TRUMP IS OUT THERE, UNLIKE NIXON.
NIXON NEVER SAID HE WAS GOING TO RUN AGAIN.
TRUMP IS CAMPAIGNING FOR THAT NOMINATION AND POSITION.
LOOK WHAT HE BROUGHT US.
AS YOU KNOW, HE HAD A WAY OF NOT ONLY TOUCHING THE CORD WITH TENS OF MILLIONS OF PEOPLE BUT IN 2016 HE MOBILIZED THEM.
IN 2020, LAST YEAR, IF YOU CHANGE 45,000 VOTES IN THREE STATES, ARIZONA, WISCONSIN AND GEORGIA, TRUMP WOULD BE PRESIDENT AGAIN.
TALK ABOUT DODGING THE BULLET.
COULDN'T BE CLEARER.
THE BULLET IS DODGED AND KEPT GOING AND TURNED AROUND AND IS HEADING FOR THE UNITED STATES ONCE AGAIN.
BOB, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.
THANK YOU.
> TONIGHT, A FITTING TRIBUTE TO A HIDDEN HEROIN.
A BRONZE STATUE WAS UNVEILED TO CELEBRATE HER.
CAMPBELL DIED IN 2017 AT THE AGE OF 82.
SHE'S NOW THE FIRST WELSH WOMAN TO BE HONORED WITH A STATUE IN WALES.
IN ITS 138 YEARS, NEW YORK METROPOLITAN OPERA NEVER PRESENTED A WORK BY A BLACK COMPOSER UNTIL NOW.
THE ICONIC INSTITUTION OPENED ITS NEW SEASON THIS WEEK WITH 'FIRE SHUT UP IN MY BONES.'
IT WAS BASED ON A MEMOIR BY CHARLES LOW.
THEY WANTED TO CAPTURE A STORY TOLD THROUGH THE LANGUAGE AND SOUND OF BLACK AMERICA.
> THAT'S IT FOR NOW.
THANK YOU FOR WATCHING.
LET'S LEAVE YOU WITH AN ARIA FROM 'FIRE SHUT UP IN MY BONES.'
♪♪♪