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> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO 'AMANPOUR & COMPANY.'
HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.
CATASTROPHIC STORM IAN CONTINUES ITS DESTRUCTIVE SURGE THROUGH AMERICA'S SOUTHEAST.
I ASK CLIMATE POLICY EXPERT LEAH STOKES WHAT MAKES IAN SO POWERFUL AND IS THIS THE FUTURE.
THEN, RUSSIA PREPARES TO ILLEGALLY ANNEX UKRAINIAN TERRITORY AS MILITARY-AGE MEN THERE VOTE AGAINST THE WAR WITH THEIR FEET.
HISTORIAN NINA KHRUSHCHEVA WEIGHS IN FROM RUSSIA ON THE NEXT PHASE OF THE CONFLICT.
ALSO --
I WENT TO AN OFFER, AND I REALIZED THAT OUT OF THE THOUSANDS OF ARTWORKS IN FRONT OF ME NOT A SINGLE ONE WAS BY A WOMAN.
ART HISTORIAN KATIE HESSEL PUTS WOMEN BACK IN THE PICTURE.
AND --
THERE'S A HISTORIC NUMBER OF BLACK CANDIDATES RUNNING FOR OFFICE ON THE REPUBLICAN TICKET.
AUTHOR TED JOHNSON EXPLORES WHY BLACK REPUBLICAN CANDIDATES ARE RISING AS BLACK REPUBLICAN VOTERS ARE DISAPPEARING.
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> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.
I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.
AT THIS MOMENT IAN IS INTENSIFYING ONCE AGAIN.
ALREADY ONE OF THE STRONGEST STORMS EVER TO HIT THE UNITED STATES, CAUSING CATASTROPHIC FLOODING AND DESTRUCTION ACROSS HUNDREDS OF MILES.
RESCUE EFFORTS ARE UNDER WAY AS MORE THAN 2.5 MILLION ELECTRIC CUSTOMERS ARE WITHOUT POWER.
STREETS AND HIGHWAYS ARE SHUT DOWN BY THE MONSTER STORM AND KEY INFRASTRUCTURE IS FAILING, INCLUDING A PORTION OF THE SANIBEL ISLAND CAUSEWAY OFF FLORIDA'S WEST COAST.
AND STILL THE WATER RISES.
SPEAKING THIS MORNING, FLORIDA GOVERNOR RON DeSANTIS SAID THE STORM IS BASICALLY A 500-YEAR FLOOD EVENT.
THE IMPACTS OF THIS STORM ARE HISTORIC, AND THE DAMAGE THAT WAS DONE HAS BEEN HISTORIC.
AND THIS IS JUST OFF INITIAL ASSESSMENTS.
THERE'S GOING TO BE A LOT MORE ASSESSING THAT GOES ON IN THE DAYS AHEAD.
BUT I THINK WE'VE NEVER SEEN A FLOOD EVENT LIKE THIS.
WE'VE NEVER SEEN STORM SURGE OF THIS MAGNITUDE.
AND IT HIT AN AREA WHERE THERE'S A LOT OF PEOPLE IN A LOT OF THOSE LOW-LYING AREAS AND IT'S GOING TO END UP DOING EXTENSIVE DAMAGE TO A LOT OF PEOPLE'S HOMES.
AND PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS BEEN BRIEFED AT FEMA HEADQUARTERS IN WASHINGTON.
THE U.S. GOVERNMENT CONFIRMS THAT IAN PRODUCED 1 IN 1,000-YEAR RAINFALL IN SOME FLORIDA LOCATIONS, WHICH EMBODIES A TREND IN RECENT HURRICANES AS WARMER WEATHER DRIVEN BY CLIMATE CHANGE FUELS STRONGER, MORE DESTRUCTIVE STORMS.
LEAH STOKES IS A CLIMATE POLICY EXPERT AT THE UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA SANTA BARBARA, AND SHE IS JOINING ME NOW.
LEAH STOKES, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
LET ME ASK YOU WHAT YOU THOUGHT OF WHAT GOVERNOR DeSANTIS SAID, AND DESCRIBE TO US WHAT IN FACT THAT MEANS, THIS IDEA OF A ONE IN 500-YEAR EVENT.
WELL, INCREASINGLY WE CAN'T USE THOSE PHRASES ANYMORE BECAUSE WE HAVE ALREADY WARMED THE PLANET BY MORE THAN ONE DEGREE CENTIGRADE AND THE IMPACTS ARE BEING SEEN AND FELT CONSTANTLY.
WHAT'S HAPPENING IS WHEN WE WARM THE PLANET WE BASICALLY PUT A LOT OF EXTRA ENERGY INTO THE OCEANS.
THE OCEANS GET WARMER.
AND SO WE'RE STARTING TO SEE THAT WHEN HURRICANES HIT WARM OCEAN TEMPERATURES THEY INTENSIFY.
THEY GET STRONGER.
THAT'S WHY WE SAW HURRICANE IAN ALMOST HIT THE COAST AS A CATEGORY 5 HURRICANE.
THERE'S VERY FEW HURRICANES THAT HAVE EVER DONE THAT BEFORE.
THIS IS THE FIFTH MOST STRONG STORM THAT WE'VE SEEN HIT AMERICAN LAND IN AMERICAN HISTORY.
SO WE HAVE TO BE REWRITING THOSE STATEMENTS.
ONCE IN 500 YEARS?
I DON'T THINK SO.
THIS IS GOING TO BE ONCE IN A DECADE MAYBE GOING FORWARD.
AND THAT'S REALLY DEVASTATING AND IT'S ALL THE MORE REASON WHY WE HAVE TO TAKE ON THE CLIMATE CRISIS.
SO AS WE'RE SPEAKING I SAID PRESIDENT BIDEN IS BEING BRIEFED AT FEMA.
AND HE HAS SAID NOW THAT THIS COULD BE THE MOST DEADLY HURRICANE TO HIT THAT PART.
AND YOU KNOW, THEY'RE GOING TO BE OBVIOUSLY SEARCHING FOR VICTIMS IN THE FLOODWATERS.
YOU'VE WRITTEN YOU'VE JUST SAID 'CLIMATE CHANGING IS MAKING HURRICANES MORE DESTRUCTIVE.'
IN 2019 FOUND, AT LEAST ONE STUDY, THE BIGGEST MOST DAMAGING HURRICANES ARE NOW THREE TIMES MORE LIKELY THAN THEY WERE 100 YEARS AGO.
MM-HMM.
YOU'RE A POLICY EXPERT.
HOW DOES POLICY HAVE TO REACT AND MATCH THAT REALITY?
WELL, THERE'S TWO THINGS THAT WE HAVE TO DO.
FIRST WE HAVE TO STOP BURNING FOSSIL FUELS.
AND THAT'S WHY IT'S SO IMPORTANT THAT DEMOCRATS IN CONGRESS GOT THE INFLATION REDUCTION ACT OVER THE FINISH LINE THIS SUMMER.
WHAT IS THAT?
IT'S ABOUT $370 BILLION IN INVESTMENTS IN CLIMATE ACTION.
TO MAKE IT MORE AFFORDABLE FOR EVERYDAY AMERICANS TO GET AN ELECTRIC VEHICLE.
TO GET A HEAT PUMP, WHICH IS AN EFFICIENT ELECTRIC APPLIANCE.
THEY CAN BOTH HEAT AND COOL YOUR HOMES.
TO GET THESE APPLIANCES INTO OUR LIVES AND GET OFF OF FOSSIL FUELS.
SO THAT'S REALLY GOOD NEWS.
BUT THE SECOND THING WE HAVE TO DO IS ACTUALLY PROTECT PEOPLE FROM THE CLIMATE CHANGE THAT IS ALREADY HAPPENING.
BECAUSE WE'RE STILL BURNING FOSSIL FUELS AND WE'VE BEEN BURNING THEM FOR OVER 100 YEARS NOW.
SO WE'VE ALREADY WARMED THE PLANET.
WE'RE SEEING, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT THERE ARE LEVELS OF SEA WATER BEGINNING BEFORE THE HURRICANE HIT THAT ARE A FOOT HIGHER THAN THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN HISTORICALLY.
SO CLIMATE CHANGE IS HAPPENING NOW.
AND THAT MEANS WE ALSO NEED TO BE PROTECTING COMMUNITIES BECAUSE THESE EXTREME EVENTS ARE GOING TO GET MORE AND MORE COMMON.
LET ME JUST PLAY THIS SOUND BITE FROM PRESIDENT BIDEN SO WE CAN HEAR WHAT HE ACTUALLY SAID ABOUT THE EFFECTS OF THIS IAN.
WE'RE CONTINUING TO SEE DEADLY RAINFALL, CATASTROPHIC STORM SURGES, ROADS AND HOMES FLOODED.
WE'RE SEEING MILLIONS OF PEOPLE WITHOUT POWER AND THOUSANDS HUNKERED DOWN IN SCHOOLS AND COMMUNITY CENTERS.
THEY'RE WONDERING WHAT'S GOING TO BE LEFT.
WHAT'S GOING TO BE LEFT WHEN THEY GET TO GO HOME, QUOTE UNQUOTE, HOME.
OR EVEN IF THEY HAVE A HOME TO GO TO.
SOME OF THE FOLKS HAVE BEEN THROUGH THIS BEFORE.
BUT THAT DOESN'T MAKE IT ANY EASIER.
ACTUALLY, IT MAKES THE ANXIETY EVEN HIGHER IN MY VIEW.
MY MESSAGE TO THE PEOPLE OF FLORIDA AND THE COUNTRY IS AT TIMES LIKE THIS AMERICA COMES TOGETHER.
SO THIS IS JUST AWFUL.
AND AS YOU SAY, IT IS BECOMING A RECURRING PATTERN.
AND AS THE PRESIDENT SAID, IT IS STILL MOVING ACROSS THE STATE AND PERHAPS TO OTHER AREAS.
WHICH MEANS THAT FLOODING IS GOING TO CONTINUE.
AND IT IS CONTINUING APACE.
WHAT HAPPENS NOW IN THE WAKE OF THIS?
OR IN ITS -- LITERALLY ITS WAKE, IN THE WATERS.
WE ALREADY HEAR MILLIONS OF FLORIDIANS AND OTHERS ARE CUT OFF FROM ELECTRICITY.
YEAH, SO SO OFTEN WHEN WE WHETHER IT'S HEAT WAVES OR HURRICANES OR EXTREME RAINFALL, WE ARE SEEING POWER OUTAGES THAT GO ALONGSIDE THAT.
THIS IS HAPPENING MORE AND MORE AS THE CLIMATE CRISIS GETS WORTH.
SO 2.5 MILLION PEOPLE IN FLORIDA RIGHT NOW DON'T HAVE POWER.
FOR SOME PEOPLE IT COULD TAKE A VERY LONG TIME TO RESTORE POWER.
COULD BE WEEKS.
MAYBE IN SOME CASES EVEN MONTHS.
THAT'S JUST TERRIBLE FOR COMMUNITIES BECAUSE ELECTRICITY IS SUCH A LIFEBLOOD, YOU KNOW.
IT CAN KEEP PEOPLE ALIVE IN HOSPITALS, FOR EXAMPLE.
IT PROVIDES REALLY IMPORTANT -- THE ABILITY TO BOIL WATER, SOMETIMES YOU NEED ELECTRICITY TO DO THAT.
AND MANY PEOPLE ARE UNDER BOIL WATER ADVISORIES.
SO THIS IS WHY WE CAN'T STOP IGNORING THE CLIMATE CRISIS.
AND UNFORTUNATELY, THE GOVERNOR OF FLORIDA, DeSANTIS, HE'S NOT REALLY WILLING TO TALK ABOUT CLIMATE CHANGE.
IN FACT, EARLIER IN SUMMER HE SAID THAT THE STATE COULD NOT BE INVESTING PENSION FUNDS, PUBLIC DOLLARS, IN A WAY THAT IS ALIGNED WITH CLIMATE CHANGE.
THIS IS TERRIBLE.
HE IS ACTING IN WAYS THAT ARE UNDERMINING THE SAFETY AND WELL-BEING OF HIS OWN CONSTITUENTS IN FLORIDA.
LEAH, HOW FAR OUT OF STEP IS HE OR NOT WITH THE MAJORITY OF AMERICAN OPINION?
I ASK YOU THIS BECAUSE AS YOU KNOW, IN PRESIDENT TRUMP'S ADMINISTRATION THEY ROLLED BACK SOME 100 ENVIRONMENTAL RULES AND REGULATIONS AND THE SUPREME COURT, AS YOU KNOW, JUST CURBED THE EPA'S ABILITY TO FIGHT CLIMATE CHANGE.
AND YOU JUST MENTIONED DeSANTIS AND HIS VIEWS.
HAVE AMERICANS CHANGED THEIR VIEWS?
ARE THE DENIERS LESS, YOU KNOW, POWERFUL THAN THEY USED TO BE WHEN THIS WAS A MATTER OF DEBATE?
ABSOLUTELY.
FIRST OF ALL, WHY DID WE HAVE A DEBATE ABOUT CLIMATE CHANGE IN THE FIRST PLACE?
IT TURNS OUT THAT FOSSIL FUEL COMPANIES AND ELECTRIC UTILITIES SPENT DECADES SOWING MISINFORMATION.
THEY GOT THEIR TALKING POINTS INTO PRESIDENTS' SPEECHES.
THEY GOT THEM INTO HIGH SCHOOL TEXTBOOKS.
SO IT'S NO WONDER THAT FOR A LONG TIME AMERICANS WERE CONFUSED ABOUT THE CLIMATE CRISIS.
THAT WAS AN INTENTIONAL THING BY FOSSIL FUEL COMPANIES SO THEY CAN CONTINUE TO ETRACT POLLUTION AND REALLY ENDANGER ALL OF US.
BUT NOW AMERICANS SEE WHAT IS HAPPENING ON THEIR DOORSTEP.
THEY SEE THESE TERRIBLE HURRICANES.
THEY SEE DEVASTATING FLOODING IN PLACES LIKE KENTUCKY OR HEAT WAVES BAKING THE ENTIRE WEST COAST.
YOU KNOW, YEAR AFTER YEAR THESE EXTREME EVENTS ARE GETTING MORE AND MORE COMMON.
SO THE FACT IS FROM A PUBLIC OPINION PERSPECTIVE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE WANT OUR GOVERNMENT TO ACT.
THEY KNOW CLIMATE CHANGE IS HAPPENING NOW.
AND WE NEED THE REPUBLICANS IN POWER, WHETHER THAT'S GOVERNOR DeSANTIS OR FOLKS IN THE SENATE, TO ACTUALLY GET ON THE SIDE OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE AND START WORKING ON CLIMATE SOLUTIONS.
AND LEAH, IT'S HUGE RIGHT NOW BECAUSE YOU SAY WE HAVE TO STOP BURNING FOSSIL FUELS AND YET WITH THE WAR IN UKRAINE, WITH PUTIN USING ENERGY BLACKMAIL, IT'S ACTUALLY THE OPPOSITE.
ALL OUR GOVERNMENTS ARE TRYING TO FIGURE OUT MORE ACCESS TO FOSSIL FUELS TO FIGURE OUT WHAT'S BEING CUT OFF FROM RUSSIA.
SO THAT'S ONE THING.
AND THEN YOU'VE GOT THE WAY IT'S AFFECTING THE REST OF THE WORLD.
WE'VE SEEN THESE TERRIBLE FLOODS IN PAKISTAN.
THERE'S A TYPHOON HITTING VIETNAM.
THIS THING IS NOT GOING AWAY.
AND YET WE'RE STILL GOING AFTER FOSSIL FUELS.
LOOK, I THINK THAT THIS YEAR COULD BE AN INFLECTION POINT WHEN IT COMES TO FOSSIL FUELS.
WHAT'S HAPPENING IN EUROPE IS THAT ACTUALLY MANY COUNTRIES SUCH AS POLAND AND ITALY ARE TURNING RAPIDLY TOWARD HEAT PUMPS, THOSE EFFICIENT ELECTRIC APPLIANCE IZZ TALKED ABOUT THAT CAN HEAT AND COOL YOUR HOMES.
THEY'RE SAYING LET'S NOT USE GAS ANYMORE, LET'S NOT BE DEPENDENT ON RUSSIA.
THAT'S A BIG CHANGE.
IN THE UNITED STATES, LIKE I MENTIONED, WE JUST PASSED $370 BILLION IN CLEAN ENERGY AND CLIMATE INVESTMENTS.
EVERY AMERICAN CAN NOW GET MONEY TO BUY A HEAT PUMP, TO BUY AN ELECTRIC VEHICLE.
AND THAT'S NOT JUST IMPORTANT FOR THE CLIMATE.
IT'S ALSO IMPORTANT FOR OUR POCKETBOOKS.
BECAUSE IT TURNS OUT IF YOU OWN AN ELECTRIC VEHICLE IT ONLY COSTS ABOUT A DOLLAR A GALLON TO CHARGE.
IT'S REALLY AFFORDABLE.
SO THESE CLEAN ENERGY TECHNOLOGIES ARE THE WAY OF THE FUTURE.
AND AMERICANS ARE GOING TO BE ABLE TO ACCESS MONEY THAT HELPS MAKE IT AFFORDABLE FOR THEM TO GET OFF OF FOSSIL FUELS.
SO I'M HOPEFUL THIS COULD BE A REAL TURNING POINT YEAR WHEN IT COMES TO TACKLING THE CLIMATE CRISIS AND FINALLY GETTING OFF OF FOSSIL FUELS.
THE EVIDENCE IS ALL AROUND US.
LEAH STOKES, THANK YOU SO MUCH.
AND AS WE JUST PREPARE TO MOVE ON, A NOTE THAT SOMETHING HAS CHANGED.
THE WORLD BANK GOVERNOR DAVID MALPASS, HE WAS CRITICIZED LAST WEEK WHEN HE WOULD NOT SAY IF GLOBAL WARMING WAS A RESULT OF HUMANS BURNING FOSSIL FUELS.
A LOT OF CRITICISM OVER THAT AND NOW HE'S HAD TO BACKTRACK.
SO MAYBE THAT WILL BE AN IMPROVEMENT.
> NOW TO A DEVELOPMENT THAT ALSO HAS ENERGY AND CLIMATE IMPLICATIONS OF COURSE.
DAMAGE TO NORD STREAM GAS PIPELINE FROM RUSSIA TO EUROPE WHICH NATO NOW CALLS THE RESULT OF DELIBERATE, RECKLESS AND IRRESPONSIBLE ACTS OF SABOTAGE.
WHILE NATO DOES NOT CALL OUT RUSSIA BY NAME FOR BEING BEHIND THE ATTACK, IT ASSERTS ANY DELIBERATE ATTACK AGAINST ALLIES' CRITICAL INFRASTRUCTURE WOULD BE MET WITH A UNITED AND DETERMINED RESPONSE.
FOR HIS PART PRESIDENT VLADIMIR PUTIN IS HOSTING A CEREMONY ON FRIDAY TO KICK OFF THE FORMAL ANNEXATION OF FOUR OCCUPIED REGIONS.
REPRESENTING ALMOST 20% OF UKRAINIAN TERRITORY.
UKRAINE AND ITS ALLIES CONDEMN THAT AS ILLEGAL.
WITH ME NOW FROM MOSCOW TO DISCUSS IS THE HISTORIAN AND GREAT GRANDDAUGHTER OF NIKITA KHRUSHCHEV.
SHE IS NINA KHRUSHCHEVA, AND WE WELCOME YOU BACK TO OUR PROGRAM.
SO YOU KNOW, WE KEEP SAYING THE FORMAL ANNEXATION.
BUT IT'S AN ILLEGITIMATE AND ILLEGAL ACCORDING TO INTERNATIONAL NORMS.
SO WHAT DO YOU THINK PUTIN HOPES TO GET FROM THAT MOVE?
WELL, I THINK HE'S BASICALLY ACTING THE WAY HE HAS BEEN ACTING.
WHEN THINGS DON'T GO HIS WAY, HE IS ESCALATING.
SO HE'S NOW ESCALATING.
I THINK -- IT'S A VERY BASIC THOUGHT.
I MEAN, I ALMOST CANNOT BELIEVE THAT THE KREMLIN THINKS IN SUCH BASIC WAYS BECAUSE IN 22 YEARS HE AT LEAST SHOWED SOME TYPE OF TACTICAL SAVVY, BUT NO MORE.
SO WHAT IT SEEMS THEY ARE DOING, THEY'RE GOING TO DECLARE THIS BREAKAWAY REPUBLICS, OR INVADED REPUBLICS, AS RUSSIAN TERRITORY AND THEN FIGHT OVER THEM AS IF IT'S RUSSIAN TERRITORY.
AND THEN IF WEAPONS FROM THE WEST COME TO THOSE TERRITORIES, PUTIN WOULD SAY IT'S NATO AND THE UNITED STATES THAT ATTACKS THE RUSSIAN TERRITORIES, SO WE NEED TO ACT, AND THEN THERE WOULD BE ANOTHER LEVEL OF ESCALATION.
I DON'T KNOW WHAT THAT LEVEL OF ESCALATION IS.
WE'VE BEEN DISCUSSING THE VARIETY OF NUCLEAR EXCHANGES.
SO THAT TERRIFIES ME.
BUT IT DOES SEEM THAT ESCALATION IS THE PATH TO WHATEVER PUTIN THINKS HE NEEDS TO DO IN ORDER NOT TO APPEAR A LOSER IN THIS WAR.
AND YET I WANT TO PLAY YOU SOME SOUND BITES.
THIS IS THE RESULT OF A 'NEW YORK TIMES' INVESTIGATION WHERE THEY HAVE BEEN ABLE TO GET VOICES AND CALLS FROM RUSSIAN SOLDIERS TO THEIR RELATIVES.
SO RUSSIAN SOLDIERS IN UKRAINE TRYING TO CALL THEIR RELATIVES IN RUSSIA, AND THEY'RE RECORDINGS OF PHONE CALLS.
I WANT TO JUST PLAY THIS.
AND THEN I WANT TO ASK YOU WHAT YOU MAKE OF IT.
AND OF COURSE PEOPLE CAN FIND MORE DETAILS OF THIS ON THE 'NEW YORK TIMES' WEBSITE.
BUT NINA KHRUSHCHEVA, BASICALLY WHAT YOU JUST HEARD WERE VERY WORRIED-SOUNDING RUSSIANS.
AND THIS WAS ACTUALLY IN MARCH, AROUND THE BUCHA OFFENSIVE, WHICH WE KNOW HOW THAT TURNED OUT.
BUT THEY WANTED -- SOME OF THEM ANYWAY WANTED TO COME HOME AND LEAVE THE MILITARY.
THEY SAY THEY'RE LOSING THE WAR.
WHAT DOES -- WHAT DO YOU THINK FROM WHAT YOU'RE HEARING THERE ABOUT THIS GAMBLE BY PUTIN?
WILL THESE CONSCRIPTORS, DRAFTEES, ACTUALLY DO ANY BETTER THAN THE ONES ON THE GROUND RIGHT NOW?
WELL, YOU'VE SEEN IT.
I MEAN, I AM IN THE MIDDLE OF IT.
I'M ACTUALLY -- I HAVE YOUNG MEN IN MY FAMILY.
SO WE'RE TRYING TO GET THEM OUT OF THE COUNTRY.
AND ESSENTIALLY, EVERY FAMILY IS WORKING TOWARDS THAT.
YOU'VE SEEN BORDERS.
YOU'VE SEEN LINES ON LAND BORDERS.
YOU'VE SEEN -- I MEAN, YOU CAN'T BUY TICKETS.
I BOUGHT A TICKET FOR MY NEPHEW FOR AN EXUBERANT AMOUNT OF MONEY.
IT'S THE WAR -- IT IS ONE OF THOSE THINGS THAT WE KEEP TALKING ABOUT HERE IS WE CAN'T BELIEVE THAT WE'RE IN IT BECAUSE IT SEEMS SO INSANE AND SURREAL.
I MEAN, IT'S ALMOST LIKE AS SURREAL AS IT WAS WHEN IT BEGAN FEBRUARY 24th WHEN UKRAINE JUST SUDDENLY GOT BOMBED AND PEOPLE COULDN'T BELIEVE IT ESSENTIALLY.
AND NOW WE ARE NOT BELIEVING THAT PUTIN SAYS WE ARE DEFENDING OUR NATION AND YET THE NATION THAT HE SAYS WE ARE DEFENDING AND THEREFORE SENDING THESE CONSCRIPTS THAT ABSOLUTELY DON'T WANT TO GO THERE.
SO ABOUT I WOULD SAY 500,000, PROBABLY A MILLION, LEFT IN JUST ONE WEEK.
SO PUTIN WANTS TO DEFEND THE COUNTRY IN WHICH HE IS ESSENTIALLY 20% OF HIS SORT OF CRAZY NATIONALIST PEOPLE ARE THE ONES THAT WANT TO BE HERE.
THE REST OF THE COUNTRY DOESN'T WANT TO FIGHT THE WAR THAT HE SAYS NEEDS TO FIGHT IN ORDER TO DEFEND THE COUNTRY.
SO IN MANY WAYS IT'S JUST AN OXYMORON UPON OXYMORON UPON OXYMORON.
AND THESE PEOPLE ARE GOING BECAUSE THEY UNDERSTAND THAT THIS WAR THE WAY PEOPLE WANTS IT IS LOST.
IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.
AND THEY DON'T WANT TO PARTICIPATE IN HIS DEFEAT.
SO WHAT HAPPENS NEXT?
I MEAN POLITICALLY.
I JUST WANT TO REMIND EVERYBODY THAT YOU ARE THE GREAT GRANDDAUGHTER OF THE FORMER SECRETARY-GENERAL OF THE SOVIET UNION NIKITA KHRUSHCHEV WHO DID IN FACT RETURN CRIMEA TO UKRAINE IN 1954.
OBVIOUSLY, WE KNOW THAT RUSSIA ANNEXED IT BACK IN 2014.
TALK TO ME A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THAT.
HOW DOES THIS ANNEXATION GO?
DO PEOPLE JUST -- WILL IT JUST STAY BY FORCE OF IT HAVING BEEN DONE?
WHAT DO YOU THINK THE FOUR REGIONS?
UKRAINE ARE GOING TO EXPERIENCE AND LOOK LIKE?
WELL, FIRST OF ALL, KHRUSHCHEV -- IT'S SORT OF A BIT OF A MYTHOLOGY.
HE DID NOT GIVE IT TO UKRAINE.
HE WAS ONE OF -- IT WAS CALLED COLLECTIVE GOVERNMENT.
HE WAS NOT THE MAIN MAN IN IT.
SO HE DID WORK IN UKRAINE AND THEREFORE ULTIMATELY HE WAS THE ONE.
AND THEN HE INHERITED POWER, GOT THE POWER AS PRIME MINISTER, AND THEREFORE ALL THE BLAME GOT ONTO HIM.
BUT ACTUALLY, HE DIDN'T SIGN ANY DOCUMENTS OF ANY CRIMEA TRANSFER TO UKRAINIAN REPUBLIC WITHIN THE SOVIET UNION.
BUT HE'S A VERY CONVENIENT -- HE'S AN ANTI-STALINIST.
HE DOESN'T LOOK LIKE POWER.
HE ACTUALLY TRIED -- I MEAN, HE WAS A DESPOT TOO.
BUT HE AT LEAST TRIED TO DEMOCRATIZE.
SO HE'S NOT A FAVORITE OF THIS GOVERNMENT.
AND SO WHEN CRIMEA GOT ANNEXED PEOPLE ALREADY GOT FED THAT PROPAGANDA THAT IT'S RUSSIAN LAND AND HOW KHRUSHCHEV DARED, SO IT'S MORE SUPPORT.
I DON'T THINK THE PUBLIC REALLY CARES THAT MUCH ABOUT THOSE REPUBLICS -- I MEAN ABOUT THOSE BREAKAWAY PLACES, ABOUT THE DONBAS.
AND I THINK ONE OF THE REASONS PUTIN WENT IN IS TO PUSH THAT SORT OF -- BASICALLY SHOVE IT INTO EVERYBODY'S THROAT THAT THAT'S SOMETHING WE NEED TO CARE ABOUT.
AND SINCE THE WHOLE SYSTEM OF LEGAL STRUCTURE, THE WHOLE SYSTEM OF CIVIL SOCIETY HAS BEEN COMPLETELY DESTROYED IN THE LAST FEW YEARS AND EVEN BEFORE, THAT REALLY PEOPLE DON'T FEEL -- IT'S CALLED THE PARADOX OF TYRANNY.
THEY HAVE TO FLEE, THEY CAN'T FIGHT WITH THE SYSTEM BUT THEY CAN'T STAY WITHIN IT.
SO I THINK WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN, THAT PEOPLE ARE GOING TO SURRENDER AND ACQUIESCE AND IT DOESN'T SEEM THAT PEOPLE WHO NOW VOTED REALLY WANTED TO VOTE THAT MUCH TO BE WITH RUSSIA.
NOT THAT THEY HAD ALSO THE WAR GOING, NOT HAD ANY CHOICE.
AND I THINK HE'S REALLY SETTING HIMSELF UP.
I DON'T KNOW HOW SOON IT WILL HAPPEN BUT SETTING HIMSELF UP FOR SOME SORT OF A REVOLUTION.
THOUGH THAT REVOLUTION MAY BE A LONG WAY TO GO TOO.
WHEN YOU SAY REVOLUTION, WHAT DO YOU MEAN?
AND OF COURSE WE JUST HEARD YOU START OFF BY SAYING YOUR OWN FAMILY IS IMPLICATED, THERE ARE MALES IN YOUR FAMILY WHO YOU'RE TRYING TO GET OUT OF THIS.
I ASSUME BECAUSE THEY DON'T WANT TO FIGHT AND THEY THINK THEY'LL LOSE AND THEY THINK THEY'LL DIE FOR A CAUSE THAT THEY DON'T BELIEVE IN.
BELIEVE.
BUT SOME PEOPLE DID GO.
AND PEOPLE WHO DID GO, WHO DIDN'T HAVE THE MONEY, WHO DIDN'T -- PROBABLY MAY HAVE NOT FOLLOWED POLITICS, THEY'RE GOING TO COME BACK IN BODY BAGS BECAUSE AS THAT BOY IN BUCHA, POOR BOY SAID, THAT OUR 50% OF OUR BATTALION IS DEAD, SO THERE WILL BE ANOTHER LEVEL AND THEN ANOTHER LEVEL.
AND ULTIMATELY PEOPLE WILL SAY WE CANNOT, AS MUCH AS WE'RE AFRAID TO CONFRONT THIS KREMLIN BECAUSE THE KREMLIN DOES WHAT IT WANTS REGARDLESS OF HOW WE SAY AND WHAT WE SAY, BECAUSE NORMALLY ANY NORMAL COUNTRY LOOKING AT THE BORDERS, AT THE LINE AT THE BORDER WOULD SAY MAYBE WE SHOULD REALLY RETHINK THIS BECAUSE SOMETHING IS NOT GOING RIGHT.
IT DOESN'T -- HOW COULD -- A MILLION PEOPLE DON'T BE THAT PATRIOTIC OF RUSSIA.
BUT THEY'RE NOT RETHINKING.
THEY'RE PUSHING.
THEY'RE ACCUSING THOSE WHO LEAVE IN BEING NON-PATRIOTIC AND SO ON.
AND SO I THINK ULTIMATELY IT WILL START GROWING.
IT DOES HAPPEN.
IT'S JUST UNFORTUNATELY BECAUSE RUSSIA IS SUCH A BIG COUNTRY WITH SUCH REPRESSIVE REGIMES AND PUTIN DID A BRILLIANT JOB REALLY REPRESSING IT ALMOST TO THE LEVEL OF STALIN, NOT EXACTLY THAT WAY BUT CERTAINLY IN KIND OF MIND GAMES.
BUT ULTIMATELY THEY WILL BE -- THEY WILL BE BREAKAWAY.
UNFORTUNATELY, I'M NOT SURE IT'S GOING TO COME SOON ENOUGH.
AND REALLY QUICKLY, TEN SECONDS, ARE YOU NOT AFRAID TO STAY THERE IN MOSCOW AND TALK LIKE THIS?
WE'VE SEEN SO MANY PEOPLE ARRESTED, SO MANY PEOPLE LEAVING BECAUSE THEY FEEL THE PRESSURE.
MAYBE.
BUT I REALLY -- I MEAN, THIS IS NOT A HEROIC STATEMENT IN ANY WAY.
AND I HOPE IT'S UNDERSTOOD.
I JUST DON'T WANT THIS GOVERNMENT TO DECIDE WHERE I STAY TODAY OR TOMORROW AND HOW I LIVE MY LIFE.
SO I CHOSE TO BE HERE BECAUSE I FINISHED A BOOK, BIOGRAPHY OF KHRUSHCHEV, AND IT'S CONVENIENT FOR ME TO WRITE HERE.
IT'S NOT PUTIN'S BUSINESS WHERE AND HOW I GO.
BUT WE'LL SEE.
WELL, I TELL YOU WHAT, WE ARE SO GRATEFUL FOR YOUR INCREDIBLE INSIGHTS AND YOUR BRAVERY.
THANK YOU SO MUCH, NINA KHRUSHCHEVA.
> NOW, AS WE FEEL THE EFFECTS OF TOXIC MASCULINITY FROM GEOPOLITICS TO POPULAR CULTURE, ONE YOUNG ART HISTORIAN IS HUSH PUSHING BACK.
KATIE HESSEL FIRST MADE A MARK WITH HER INSTAGRAM ACCOUNT GREAT WOMEN ARTISTS, LOOKING AT WOMEN OVERLOOKED BY THE ART WORLD'S PATRIARCHY.
IN HER NEW BOOK 'THE STORY OF ART WITHOUT MEN,' HESSEL DEFLDS INTO THE HISTORY OF WOMEN ACHIEVING ARTISTIC EXCELLENT AGAINST COLOSSAL ODDS.
AND WHEN I MET HER AT THE EXHIBITION SHE'S MOUNTED HERE IN LONDON AT THE VICTORIA MIRO GALLERY, SHE CHALLENGED ALL OF OUR BASIC KNOWLEDGE OF WOMEN'S ROLES IN THE HISTORY OF ART.
KATIE HESSEL, WRM TO THE PROGRAM.
THANK YOU SO MUCH.
IT'S AN HONOR TO BE HERE.
WHEN DID YOU DISCOVER THAT THERE JUST WASN'T FEMALE REPRESENTATION IN ART OR AT LEAST HOW ART IS TAUGHT?
IT'S INTERESTING.
IN OCTOBER 20 15 WHEN I JUST FRKD MY B.A. IN ART HISTORY I WENT TO THE ART FAIR AND I REALIZED OUT OF THE THOUSANDS OF ART WORKS IF FRONT OF ME I REALIZED NOT A SINGLE ONE WAS BY A WOMAN.
AND THEN I ASKED MYSELF SOME QUESTIONS.
COULD I NAME 15 WOMEN ARTISTS?
COULD I NAME TEN PRE1950?
ANY PRE1850 SXHM SN AND THE ANSWER WAS NO.
I DID A LITTLE EXERCISE.
I'VE WRITTEN THEM DOWN.
AND I ALSO COULD NOT VERY QUICKLY.
BUT I QUICKLY DID THE FOLLOWING.
GEORGIA O'KEEFFE, LEE KRASNER, LUDMILA HOMID, TRACY EMMON WHO'S HERE, FRIDA CALLO.
IS THAT EXHAUSTIVE?
MY GOSH, THERE ARE SO MANY OTHERS.
BUT HERE'S THE THING.
I COULDN'T EITHER.
IF I HADN'T ACTIVELY BEEN STUDYING WOMEN ARTISTS FOR THE LAST SEVEN YEARS I WOULDN'T KNOW A FRACTION MAYBE OF EVEN THESE NAMES.
THEY WERE NOT TO BE FOUND IN THE HISTORY BOOKS OR THE COURSES I WAS STUDYING.
YOU'VE DONE YOUR PODCAST, NOW YOUR BOOK, SECOND BOOK.
YOU'VE GOT THE GALLERY AND WE'RE GOING TO TALK ABOUT SOME OF THESE PAINTINGS.
HAVE YOU SEEN THE DISCUSSION MOVE FORWARD SINCE YOU STARTED?
SINCE 2015 WHEN YOU FIRST BECAME AWARE OF THIS.
ABSOLUTELY.
AND I THINK WHAT'S AMAZING IS THERE HAS BEEN THIS LIKE-MINDEDNESS AMONGST SO MANY PEOPLE ACROSS THE GLOBE.
BUT IT'S ALSO IT'S ABOUT WHO GUARDS THESE MUSEUMS, WHO GUARDS THESE HISTORY BOOKS, WHO'S BEEN ABLE TO WRITE THEM IN THE PAST.
THE FACT THAT WE NOW SEE WOMEN AT THE HELM OF THE TATE, THE LOUVRE, THE NATIONAL GALLERY OF ART IN WASHINGTON, D.C.
THAT'S WHY IT'S CHANGING SO MUCH, BECAUSE WE HAVE THESE PEOPLE IN POWERFUL POSITIONS WHOSE AIM IS TO SPREAD AND HIGHLIGHT REPRESENTATION.
SOME PEOPLE MIGHT JUST SAY TO YOU LISTEN, KATY, THERE JUST AREN'T WOMEN ARTISTS, THEY JUST DON'T EXIST IN THE SAME VOLUME AS MALE ARTISTS, SO QUIT YOUR WHINING.
WELL, I MEAN, IT'S AN INTERESTING CASE.
BUT ACTUALLY THE AMAZING THING IS THAT THEY TOTALLY EXISTED.
THE THING IS FIRST OF ALL THEY WERE MASSIVELY RESTRICTED IN WHAT THEY COULD DO.
WOMEN ARTISTS WERE NOT EVEN ALLOWED IN THE LIFE ROOM TO STUDY ANN ANATOMY FROM THE NUDE UNTIL THE 1890s.
WOW.
SO THE FACT THEY WERE EXISTING IN THE 15th AND 16th CENTURIES SHOWS HOW MANY HURDLES THEY HAD TO OVERCOME.
BUT YES, THEY WERE SPLULT GREAT.
AND ALSO INTERNATIONAL CELEBRITIES IN THEIR LIFETIME.
YOUR BOOK 'THE STORY OF ART' IS A LITTLE TAKE ON THE ORIGINAL STORY OF ART.
AND THE ORIGINAL, HOW POWERFUL WAS THAT ONE?
TOTALLY.
THIS BOOK, THE STORY OF ART WITHOUT MEN, IS SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT FROM THE ORIGINAL --
YOU SEE, IT DOESN'T SAY WITHOUT MEN ON THE COVER.
IT DOES.
VERY CLOSELY.
OH, MY GOSH.
IT'S IN SOME KIND OF MUTED WHITE THERE.
EXACTLY.
IT'S SUPPOSED TO GRAD PEOPLE'S ATTENTION.
AND ALSO ADD A BIT OF HUMOR AND TONGUE IN CHEEKNESS TO GRAB PEOPLE'S ATTENTION AND SHOW THERE'S SO MUCH FIGHTING TO DO.
SO THIS BOOK VERY MUCH TAKES ITS TITLE FROM GONEBRICK'S STORY OF ART IN AMERICA.
PEOPLE USE JANSEN'S HISTORY OF ART.
AND GUMBRICK'S HISTORY OF ART THE FIRST EDITION IN 1950 INCLUDED NOT A SINGLE WOMAN ARTIST IN ITS EDITION.
AND EVEN TODAY THE 16th EDITION INCLUDES JUST ONE THAT BEING KATA KULVITS THE GERMAN EXPRESSIONIST.
THERE'S A FAMOUS POSTCARD SOMEONE SEND SENT TO ME I MEANT TO BRING IT IT'S ESSENTIALLY I'M GOING TO PARAPHRASE, CAN WOMEN ONLY GET INTO THE METROPOLITAN MUSEUM IF THEY'RE NUDE, IN OTHER WORDS, PAINTED, AS OPPOSED TO ACTUALLY ANY OTHER KIND OF AGENCY?
WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT AND HOW FAR HAVE WE COME FROM THAT?
THE POSTCARD YOU'RE REFERRING TO IS A FANTASTIC BOLD GRAPHIC MADE BY THE GUERRILLA GIRLS WHO HAVE BEEN ACTIVE SINCE THE 1980s.
THEY PUT UP THESE FANTASTIC SLOGANS THAT SAY DO WOMEN HAVE TO BE NEIGHBORHOOD TO COME TO THE MET MUSEUM, THE DISADVANTAGE OF BEING WOMEN ARTISTS SORT OF BEING SATIRICAL.
BUT THE FACT WOMEN ARE SO -- THEY ARE SUCH A MINORITY IN TODAY'S WORLD.
BUT YES, DO THEY HAVE TO BE NUDE?
IT SEEMS LIKE THEY DO.
WHEN WE LOOK AT THE STATISTICS, IT'S SHOCKING.
I MEAN, EVEN HERE IN THE UK JUST 1% OF THE NATIONAL GALLERY'S COLLECTION, 1% IS MADE UP OF WOMEN ARTISTS.
THE ROYAL ACADEMY OF ARTS ARE YET TO HOST A FEMALE ARTIST EXHIBITION IN THEIR MAIN SPACE.
MARINA ABRAMOVICH WILL BE THE FIRST NEXT SUMMER.
LET'S TALK A LITTLE ABOUT SOME OF THE WORKS IN THIS ROOM.
BEHIND ME IS A MODERN FEMALE ARTIST.
BUT TELL ME ABOUT THAT BECAUSE IT'S DERIVED FROM A HISTORICAL -- AN OLD PAINTING.
EXACTLY.
THE WORK YOU'RE REFERRING TO IS WATCH OUT BOY SHE'LL CHEW YOU UP BY FLUORI IKNOVIC WHO'S I AFANTASTIC PAINTER WORKING NOW.
SHE WAS BORN IN THE 19950s.
SHE LOOKS AT OLD MASTER PAINTINGS, LIKE TIEPELO WHICH YOU WERE REFERRING TO, ALMOST UPENDING IT WITH THESE FEMINIST TWISTS.
WE SEE HER USING AT ABSTRACTION AND FIGURATION THAT N. SUCH A BOLD AND EXPRESSIVE WAY BUT SHE ALSO WORKS ON THE SCALE OF OLD MASTERS.
YOU CAN'T HELP BUT BE DAZZLED BY THIS.
AND TO MY RIGHT WE HAVE TRACY EMMON WHO'S A REALLY DISTINGUISHED BRITISH ARTIST, FEMALE OBVIOUSLY.
AND SHE MUST HAVE REALLY KICKSTARTED BRITAIN'S AWARENESS OF FEMALE ARTISTS.
I MEAN, TRACY EMMON HAS BEEN CAMPAIGNING FOR WOMEN'S PARTICIPATION ESPECIALLY IN THE ART WORLD FOR DECADES NOW.
AND SHE HAS BEEN MONUMENTAL.
SHE WAS DEALING WITH SUBJECTS THAT FEEL SO CURRENT AND TIMELY TODAY SUCH AS ABORTION IN THE EARLY 1990s WHEN SHE MADE THIS FANTASTIC FILM CALLED 'HOW IT FEELS.'
AND IT WAS ABOUT HER EXPERIENCE OF GOING THROUGH THAT.
AND ACTUALLY BECAUSE OF EVERYTHING THAT'S HAPPENING IN AMERICA AT THE MOMENT THAT WORK IS ACTUALLY BEING PICKED UP NOW IN 2022.
BUT HOW LONG HAVE WE GOT TO HAVE FIL PEOPLE TAKE THESE SUBJECTS SERIOUSLY?
AND SHE HAS TOTALLY TRAIL-BLAZED THIS BY SAYING WHAT THE WORLD'S ABOUT.
AND THERE'S THIS FANTASTIC QUOTE THAT I USE IN MY BOOK.
SHE SAYS, 'IF PEOPLE ARE SHOCKED ABOUT THAT, THEN THEY SHOULD LOOK AT THEIR OWN LIVES.'
SO TALKING ABOUT LIVES, WHAT ARTISTS, FEMALE ARTISTS OF ANY ERA WOULD YOU HAVE LIKED TO HAVE MET?
PROBABLY AERMTISSIA BORTALEVSKI FROM THE BAROQUE ERA.
SHE GREW UP IN HER ARTIST FATHER'S STUDIO.
SHE WAS MAKING TOWERING WORK BY THE AGE OF 17 SUCH AS SUSANNA AND THE ELDERS.
THERE'S AMAZING WORK THAT REALLY ACTUALLY SHOWS WHAT LIFE MUST HAVE BEEN LIKE AS A WOMAN IN 17th CENTURY ROME.
SHE PORTRAYS THESE BIBLICAL STORIES FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF A WOMAN.
AND THEN WE SEE THESE INCREDIBLY SORT OF BLOOD-RIDDEN AND GORY BUT VISCERAL PAINTINGS SUCH AS JUDITH BEHEADING HALAFERNES OR SLAYING HALAFERNES.
THE MAID SERVANT KEEPING WATCH, SHE BRINGS TOGETHER ALMOST THIS SISTERHOOD AS THEY KIND OF BLADE A KNIFE THROUGH HALAFERNES'S NECK.
YOU ARE VERY YOUNG AND YOU ARE SO IMPASSIONED.
WHAT DRIVES THAT?
I THINK, YOU KNOW, I SEE SOMETHING THAT'S MISS SXIG WANT TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.
YOU KNOW, I WAS 21 WHEN I STARTED IT AND I STARTED IT ON INSTAGRAM THROUGH MY ACCOUNT THE GREAT WOMEN ARTISTS.
BECAUSE I THOUGHT I WANT TO KNOW ABOUT THEM BUT ALSO I WANT TO BRING ART HISTORY TO THE MASSES.
THIS IS A SUBJECT THAT HAS BEEN SEEN AS ELITIST AND HAS ALSO RESTRICTED A LOT OF PEOPLE FROM ENTERING IN.
AND I WANT TO SAY IF YOU ARE ABLE TO SEE THAT ART IS LITERALLY ONE OF THE MOST ACCESSIBLE SUBJECTS THERE IS.
SO THE INSTAGRAM ACCOUNT WHICH WAS THE FIRST ITERATION, DID YOU FIND A REACTION AND WHAT KIND OF REACTION, AND DID IT MOVE THE BALL?
I THINK, YOU KNOW, WITH INSTAGRAM WHEN YOU'RE SETTING SOMETHING UP, WHEN PEOPLE LOOK AT IT, ALMOST INTERWOVEN WITH THEIR DAILY FEEDS, THERE IS THIS IDEA THAT IT CAN REACH SO MANY PEOPLE.
AND I DEFINITELY FULT FELT THERE WAS A CORRELATION BETWEEN THE DEMOCRATIZATION OF ART AND ALSO THE RISE OF THE INTERNET BECAUSE SUDDENLY AND FINALLY IT'S UP TO INDIVIDUALS TO ACTUALLY CREATE THEIR OWN VOICE.
I DIDN'T HAVE A PLATFORM WHEN I WAS 21, SO I TOOK TO INSTAGRAM.
AND I DIDN'T HAVE A RADIO SHOW, SO I MADE A PODCAST.
AND ACTUALLY WHAT'S AMAZING ABOUT THE FLRNT TODAY IS THAT WE HAVE ALL THESE RESOURCES AND WE CAN ACTUALLY SEE A CHANGE.
AND ALSO THE FACT THAT PEOPLE ARE HUNGRY FOR THESE STORIES.
JUST BY, YOU KNOW, LOOKING AT HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE INTERESTED IN THIS BOOK.
THE FACT THAT PEOPLE WANT TO KNOW THAT THESE WOMEN EXISTED.
WHEN YOU WALK INTO THE GALLERY, YOU ARE JUST CONFRONTED BY A GIGANTIC FEMALE FIGURE.
I MEAN, THAT'S NOT AN ACCIDENT.
IT'S NOT.
IT'S NOT.
WHAT I ALSO LOVE ABOUT THIS EXHIBITION AND ALSO WHAT WOMEN ARTISTS ARE DOING NOW IS THEY'RE NOT AFRAID TO USE SCALE.
THE WORK THAT YOU'RE CONFRONTED WITH AS YOU ENTER THE GALLERY IS 'PROM' BY CHANTALOFFEE.
AND IT'S OF HER DAUGHTER EZ.
I LOVE THIS WORK BECAUSE THERE'S A LOT OF AMBIVALENCE GOING ON IN THIS WORK.
FIRST IT'S ON THIS GRAND SCALE.
THE EQUIVALENT OF A RUBENS OR SOMETHING.
BUT IT'S OF A SINGLE GIRL WITH THIS RED DRESS.
SHE MIGHT BE GOING TO PROM.
BUT ALSO THERE'S A SORT OF TENSENESS OR NERVOUSNESS IN HER EYES.
IT LOOKS AS THOUGH SHE'S ON THE THRESHOLD BETWEEN ADOLESCENCE AND ADULTHOOD.
AND WHILE SHE'S NO LONGER HOLDING ON TO THE HAND OF HER MOTHER IT'S ALMOST AS IF SHE'S BEING SET FREE INTO THE FUTURE.
IT IS VERY POWERFUL.
WHAT IS IT ABOUT THE MARKET OR THE STRUCTURE THAT HAS PREVENTED FEMALE ARTISTS FROM SELLING AS MUCH OR AS WELL, OR AT SUCH HIGH PRICES?
WELL, I THINK YOU'VE ONLY GOT TO LOOK AT THE GENDER PAY GAP IN THE WORLD OR THE WESTERN WORLD TODAY AND THE FACT THAT THE ART MARKET IS ALMOST A MICROCOSM OF HOW WE PLACE MONETARY VALUE ON GENDERS IN SOCIETY.
SO FOR EXAMPLE, THE HIGHEST-EARNING LIVING ARTIST IS JENNY SAVILLE.
HER WORK HAS GONE FOR JUST 12% OF THE HIGHEST LIVING EARNING -- HIGHEST EARNING LIVING MALE ARTIST.
AND WHEN WE LOOK AT DECEASED ARTIST AS WELL, GEORGIA O'KEEFE HAS GONE FOR A FRACTION, LESS THAN 10% OF LEONARDO'S SALVADOR MUNDI, WHICH WENT FOR $450 MILLION.
THANK YOU.
SHALL WE GET UP AND DO A LITTLE SOMETHING AROUND KHADIJAH?
YES.
SO THIS IS CALLED 'THE GIRL NEXT DOOR.'
AND YOU SAY IT'S A REIMAGINING OF WOMEN AND PAINTING IN AMERICA.
AMY SHERROLD IS EXTRAORDINARY.
SHE'S REALLY KIND OF REINVENTING AMERICAN PORTRAITURE.
WHO HAS BEEN ABLE TO IMMORTALIZE AND HISTORICIZE PEOPLE IN THE PAST?
IT'S OFTEN BEEN WHITE MEN.
BUT SHE'S FOCUSING ON THE EVERY DAYNESS OF BLACK PEOPLE IN AMERICA.
AND SHE'S NOT LOOKING AT THEM SORT OF IN A PUBLIC ROLE.
SHE'S LOOKING AT THE SIMPLICITY AND THE EVERYDAYNESS OF THEM AND BRINGING OUT THESE BEAUTIFUL PEOPLE WHO SHE FINDS IN HER EVERYDAY LIFE.
IT REALLY IS -- IT JUST LEAPS OFF.
JUST AS HER PORTRAIT OF MICHELLE OBAMA, THE FIRST LADY, DID.
WE TALKED A LOT ABOUT HOW MEN PAINTERS, PARTICULARLY OF YESTERYEAR, HAD PHENOMENAL AND IMPORTANT PATRONS LIKE THE MED ICIS, THE POPES AND SO ON.
SHE HAD MICHELLE OBAMA.
WHICH WAS REVOLUTIONARY AND CATAPULTED HER ON THE WORLD STAGE.
AS A RESULT SHE'S NOW IN THE COLLECTIONS OF MUSEUMS WORLDWIDE.
AND THE FACT MICHELLE OBAMA DID THAT WAS GAME CHANGING.
SO THIS IS ONE OF MY FAVORITE INSTALLATIONS.
I LOVE THE PHOTOGRAPHY.
ONE OF THE GREAT WOMEN PHOTOGRAPHERS WAS MARGARET BOOK WHITE.
BUT THIS IS KHADIJAH SAI, WHO IS AN ORDINARY WOMAN WHO LOST HER LIFE IN THE TERRIBLE GRENFELL TOWER FIRE.
WHAT IS SHE TALKING ABOUT HERE?
WHAT IS THIS DEPICTING?
YES, YOU'RE RIGHT.
SHE DIED WHEN SHE WAS JUST 24.
AND ACTUALLY THESE WORKS, THIS SERIES OF SCREEN PRINTS IS CALLED 'IN THIS SPACE WE BREATHE.'
AND IT'S VERY MUCH EXPLORING SELF-PORTRAIT YUR.
SO WE SEE HER, WHETHER IT BE JUST A SEGMENT OF HER BODY, FULL FRONTAL OR TURNED AWAY FROM ULS, BUT ALSO LOOKING AT HER GAMBYN BRITISH HERITAGE.
SHE HAS A MUSLIM FATHER AND HER CHRISTIAN MOTHER WHO SADLY PASSED WITH HER IN THE GRENFELL TOWER FIRE.
SHE'S LOOKING AT THESE HEALING RITUALS, EXPLORING HER IDENTITY, WHO SHE WAS AT SUCH AN EARLY AGE IN HER 20s.
THESE WERE ORIGINALLY ACTUALLY USED -- THEY WERE ORIGINALLY TIN TYPES AND SHE USED A 19th CENTURY PROCESS FOR THIS.
WHICH IS WHY ALL THESE ACCIDENTS OCCUR ON THEM.
BUT ALSO WE SEE THESE DIFFERENT SORT OF SPIRITUALIST AND RITUALISTIC OBJECTS THAT ALL HAVE CULTURAL SIGNIFICANCE.
SHE'S TALKING ABOUT HER IDENTITY BUT ALSO SPIRITUALISM AND HEALING.
IS THAT HER?
IS IS IT A SELF-PORTRAIT?
THIS IS KHADIJAH, YES.
AND KHADIJAH ALONG WITH AMY CHERROLLED, DEBRA ROBERTS, ZEMELE MAHALO, THEY'RE FOR ME THE ARTISTS DEFINING THE CONTEMPORARY MOMENT WHETHER IT'S LOOKING AT FIGURATION AND PORTRAITURE OR PAINTING IN THE PRESENT DAY.
KATY HESSEL, THANK YOU VERY MUCH IP DEED.
THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.
IT'S AN HONOR TO BE ON YOUR SHOW.
HOW UPLIFTING WAS THAT.
NOW, THE EXHIBITION HERE IN LONDON RUNS THROUGH THIS SATURDAY.
FROM THE POLITICS OF ART TO THE ART OF POLITICS.
IN THE UNITED STATES WILL 2022 BE THE YEAR OF THE BLACK REPUBLICAN?
IT COULD BE.
WITH A RECORD NUMBER OF AFRICAN AMERICAN CANDIDATES IN THE GOP.
SO WHAT IS DRIVING THIS?
TED JOHNSON FROM THE BRENNAN CENTER FOR JUSTICE EXPLAINS TO MICHELLE MARTIN.
THANKS, CHRISTIANE.
TED JOHNSON, THANKS SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.
THANKS FOR HAVING ME.
GOOD TO BE HERE ALWAYS.
YOU'VE BEEN WRITING A NUMBER OF PIECES OVER THE COURSE OF THE FALL ABOUT SORT OF THE GUESS THAT WE COULD SAY PERHAPS WILL ANIMATE THIS VERY IMPORTANT MIDTERM ELECTION.
AND ONE OF THE PIECES THAT REALLY CAUGHT OUR EYE WAS ABOUT THE NUMBER OF BLACK REPUBLICANS RUNNING THIS ELECTION CYCLE.
YOU SAID THAT EVEN BEFORE THE PRIMARIES WERE OVER THERE WERE SOME 80 BLACK CANDIDATES RUNNING IN THE PARTY'S PRIMARIES THIS YEAR.
THIS IS AN EXTRAORDINARY THING GIVEN HOW FEW BLACK REPUBLICANS HAVE CERTAINLY SERVED IN CONGRESS OVER THE YEARS BUT HAVE EVEN TRIED.
FIRST TALK ABOUT WHY DO YOU THINK THERE ARE SO MANY AFRICAN AMERICAN CANDIDATES RUNNING THIS YEAR?
SO INTERESTING.
DONALD TRUMP WHEN HE WAS RUNNING IN 2016 SAID 'I GUARANTEE YOU IN FOUR YEARS I WILL WIN 95% OF THE BLACK VOTE.'
AND OF COURSE HE FELL FAR, FAR SHORT OF THAT BUT HE MADE IT A POINT EVERY SO OFTEN TO AT LEAST TIP HIS HAT TO THE BLACK VOTER BECAUSE HE RECOGNIZED IF HE COULD MAKE ANY INROADS, SOMETHING REPUBLICANS HAVE BEEN THINKING ABOUT FOR DECADES, THAT IT WOULD MAKE THE DEMOCRATS' PATH TO VICTORY FAR NARROWER.
SO WHAT'S HAPPENING IN THIS MOMENT?
AT THE SAME TIME BLACK VOTERS ARE GIVING THE LEAST AMOUNT OF THEIR VOTE IN PRESIDENTIAL ELECTIONS EVER TO THE REPUBLICAN PARTY THERE'S A HISTORIC NUMBER OF BLACK CANDIDATES RUNNING FOR OFFICE ON THE REPUBLICAN TICKET.
AND MY SENSE OF THIS IS THAT OPPORTUNITY IS THERE.
ONE, THERE ARE ALWAYS BLACK REPUBLICANS.
THERE ALWAYS WILL BE.
IN FACT, WE SHOULD WANT THERE TO BE BLACK REPUBLICANS.
BUT THE QUESTION IS WHY THIS NUMBER OF CANDIDATES WHEN THE PARTY'S SO UNPOPULAR WITH BLACK FOLKS.
BECAUSE THE STANDARD BEARER FOR THE PARTY IS AT LEAST RACIALLY INTOLERANT IN A LOT OF HIS RHETORIC.
AND WHAT THAT DOES IS CREATE THIS SORT OF VENEER OF RACIAL INTOLERANCE FOR THE ENTIRE PARTY.
AND SO WHEN YOU HAVE BLACK CANDIDATES THAT ARE WILLING TO STAND UP AND SAY I AM PRO TRUMP, I BELIEVE THE ELECTION WAS STOLEN, I AM A REPUBLICAN, IT PROVIDES A SORT OF SHIELD AGAINST SOME OF THOSE ATTACKS OR ACCUSATIONS OF RACE MDS TO THE PARTY.
SO HOW CAN A PARTY THAT'S RACIST HAVE A HISTORIC NUMBER OF BLACK CANDIDATES?
NEVER MIND HISPANIC CANDIDATES, ASIAN AMERICAN CANDIDATES THAT ARE RUNNING.
THIS IS A SORT OF PROTECTION AGAINST THAT KIND OF ACCUSATION.
SO WHAT THAT DOES, IT'S FOR THE BLACK REPUBLICANS THAT WANT TO RUN FOR OFFICE, THIS CREATES A PATHWAY THAT WHITE REPUBLICANS CAN'T LEVERAGE.
AND SO IF YOU ARE A BLACK REPUBLICAN AND YOU ARE -- HAVE DONALD TRUMP'S STAMP OF APPROVAL, IF YOU ADHERE TO THE MAGA PHILOSOPHY, IF TRUMPISM IS YOUR THING, YOU NOT ONLY HAVE THAT GOING FOR YOU IN A POLITICS THAT'S INCREDIBLY POLARIZED BUT YOUR RACE GIVES YOU AN ADVANTAGE IN A WEIRD SORT OF WAY BECAUSE OF HOW THE CARICATURES AND THE STEREOTYPES OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY ITSELF.
IN YOUR REPORTING DO YOU HAVE ANY SENSE WHETHER THE MAJORITY OF THESE CANDIDATES, WERE THEY RECRUITED TO RUN BECAUSE IT WAS DEEMED THEY WOULD BE HIGHLY DESIRABLE?
OR DID THEY PUT THEIR HAND UP?
HOW DID IT WORK?
I THINK THERE'S THREE BASIC PATHS FOR MOST OF THESE FOLKS.
ONE IS THEY'RE JUST REPUBLICANS AND THEY WANT TO SERVE AND THIS WAS THEIR PATHWAY.
I THINK JOHN JAMES IN MICHIGAN IS AN EXAMPLE OF THAT.
A SECOND PATHWAY IS THEY'RE KIND OF OPPORTUNISTS.
THEY WANT TO SERVE IN CONGRESS FOR WHATEVER REASON.
MAYBE IT'S OUT OF PRINCIPLE.
MAYBE IT'S JUST BECAUSE THEY WANT TO BE PROXIMATE TO POWER.
BUT THEY SORT OF CHECKED OUT THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY AND THEY WERE TOLD GET IN LINE, LOTS OF FOLKS AHEAD OF YOU.
AND THEN THEY SHOW UP AT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY HEADQUARTERS AND THEY SAY WOW, BLACK DUDE, VETERAN, CONSERVATIVE, YOU KNOW, MAYBE WE'VE GOT A PLACE FOR YOU.
YOU CAN ACTUALLY HELP DIVERSIFY THE PARTY, HELP AGAIN BE A SHIELD AGAINST SOME OF THESE ACCUSATIONS, AND MAYBE PULL OFF AN UPSET.
AND THEN THE THIRD PATH IS SORT OF -- THESE ARE THE FOLKS THAT ARE BASICALLY TRUE MAGA PEOPLE.
THEY JUST BELIEVE -- THE PARTY IS LESS IMPORTANT THAN THEIR BELIEF IN TRUMP.
AND THESE FOLKS DEFINITELY HAVE BEEN RECRUITED TO SOME EXTENT IN SOME OF THESE RACES.
YES, RECRUITMENT HAPPENS.
YES, THERE ARE JUST PRINCIPLED BLACK CONSERVATIVES RUNNING.
AND YES, SOME FOLKS ARE OPPORTUNISTS LOOKING FOR THE SHORTEST PATH TO RUN FOR OFFICE INSTEAD OF BEING TOLD TO WAIT IN LINE.
I DON'T THINK ANY ONE OF THOSE PATHWAYS ARE THE MOST DOMINANT.
BUT THE ONE RECURRING THEME ACROSS ALL OF THEM IS THAT SOME LEVEL OF RECRUITMENT HAD TO HAPPEN FOR FOLKS TO GET THROUGH THE PRIMARY SUCCESSFULLY.
WHICH IS TO SAY THE PARTY MACHINERY NEEDED TO GET BEHIND THEM IN A CROWDED PRIMARY FIELD IN TERMS OF MONEY, EXPOSURE, CERTAINLY IN GETTING A TRUMP ENDORSEMENT.
PRESUMABLY THERE SHOULD BE POLITICAL COMPETITION AMONG ALL GROUPS, RIGHT?
THE WHITE ELECTORATE IN THE LAST TWO ELECTION CYCLES, PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION CYCLES, WAS SPLIT 50-50, RIGHT?
JUST ABOUT 50-50 BETWEEN THE REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS, BETWEEN BIDEN AND TRUMP, BETWEEN CLINTON AND TRUMP.
SO WE DON'T CONSIDER IT UNUSUAL THAT THERE'S COMPETITION AMONG WHITE VOTERS.
BUT WE DO THINK IT'S INTERESTING WHEN REPUBLICANS CAN ATTRACT BLACK VOTERS AT ALL.
AND I JUST THINK WE SHOULD TALK ABOUT WHY THAT IS.
LIKE WHY ARE WE HAVING THIS CONVERSATION?
WHY DOES THIS MATTER?
THERE'S TONS OF HISTORY HERE.
RIGHT AFTER THE CIVIL WAR AFTER BLACK MEN WERE ENFRANCHISED BY THE STATES AND THE 15th AMENDMENT IN 1870 THE BLACK VOTE WAS LOPSIDED.
IT WAS ALL FOR REPUBLICANS THEN, THE PARTY OF LINCOLN.
AND ESSENTIALLY OVER THE LAST 150 YEARS BLACK VOTERS HAVE ALWAYS VOTED IN A LOPSIDED MANNER FOR THE PARTY THAT WAS PRO CIVIL RIGHTS OR AGAINST THE PARTY THAT WAS ANTI-CIVIL RIGHTS.
AND INVARIABLY THAT'S BEEN THE CASE EXCEPT FOR ONE SHORT PERIOD BETWEEN 1920s, '30s WHEN BOTH REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS BECAUSE OF THE GREAT MIGRATION, BECAUSE NORTHERN DEMOCRATS AND DIXIECRATS IN THE SOUTH WERE VERY DIFFERENT, THERE WAS A LITTLE BIT OF COMPETITION FOR THE BLACK VOTE HAPPENING.
AND WHAT THAT DID WAS IN A WAY MUTE THE CIVIL RIGHTS ISSUE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE TWO PARTIES UNTIL TRUMAN KIND OF SIGNS THE FEDERAL ORDER THAT DESEGREGATES THE MILITARY, THE FEDERAL WORKFORCE, AND THEN WE'RE OFF TO DEMOCRATS MAKING A REAL PUSH TO WIN BLACK VOTERS.
SO WHEN YOU HAVE THIS ELECTORATE THAT'S ALWAYS VOTED IN A LOPSIDED MANNER FOR THE PRO CIVIL RIGHTS PARTY, YOU END UP WITH BLACK ELECTED OFFICIALS ALSO BEING HEAVILY WEIGHTED ON THE SIDE THAT'S PRO CIVIL RIGHTS AND THE PARTY THAT'S PRO CIVIL RIGHTS.
SO WHEN YOU GET THESE MOMENTS WHERE YOU'VE GOT BLACK CANDIDATES RUNNING IN A PARTY THAT'S DIFFERENT FROM WHERE THE BLACK ELECTORATE IS VOTING, IT'S OF NOTE.
AND THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT IS HAPPENING NOW.
AS I MENTIONED, THE REPUBLICAN PARTY FROM 2008 I THINK TO 2020 HAS AVERAGED ABOUT 6% OF THE BLACK VOTE IN PRESIDENTIAL ELECTIONS.
FROM 1968 TO 2004 REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATES AVERAGED OVER 11%. SO THE PARTY IS HISTORICALLY UNPOPULAR WITH BLACK VOTERS AND YET HAVING THESE HISTORIC NUMBERS WITH BLACK FOLKS RUNNING FOR OFFICE.
THAT IN AND OF ITSELF IS WORTHY OF NOTE.
THE OTHER THING IS THE LARGEST CLASS OF BLACK REPUBLICANS EVER IN CONGRESS WAS IN THE 43rd -- 44th CONGRESS I THINK IT WAS IN 1873.
STILL RECONSTRUCTION TIME.
IN THE AGE OF TRUMP BLACK REPUBLICANS IN CONGRESS MIGHT MATCH THAT NUMBER.
WHICH JUST FEELS SORT OF OUT OF BALANCE FROM WHAT HISTORY HAS TOLD US AND WHAT POLITICAL SCIENCE SUGGESTS.
BUT WHEN WE THINK ABOUT THE CURRENT STATE OF THIS REPUBLICAN PARTY THIS IS THE PARTY FIRST CAPTURED BY THE TEA PARTY POST-OBAMA AND NOW BY TRUMP AND MAGA AND TRUMPISM.
AND TODAY IN THESE MOMENTS IT IS EASIER FOR BLACK CANDIDATES TO SIGNAL THEIR ALLEGIANCE TO THE PARTY BECAUSE OF THESE MOVEMENTS, AND THAT MAKES THEM MORE ATTRACTIVE CANDIDATES THAN, AGAIN, WHITE PRIMARY CANDIDATES BECAUSE OF THE VENEER, AGAIN, OF RACIAL INTOLERANCE THAT THE PARTY HAS BEEN BATTLING FOR DECADES.
SO AWFUL THESE THINGS COMING TOGETHER IS WHAT MAKES THIS MOMENT SO NOTEWORTHY, AND IT WILL BE QUITE INTERESTING TO SEE WHAT HAPPENS POST-MIDTERMS.
I THINK TRADITIONALLY PEOPLE HAVE THOUGHT ABOUT CANDIDATE RECRUITMENT AS A WAY TO ATTRACT MORE PEOPLE OF THAT DEMOGRAPHIC TO THE PARTY.
AM I RIGHT?
PEOPLE THINK OH, WE REALLY NEED TO ATTRACT MORE WOMEN TO VOTE FOR THE PARTY, WE SHOULD RECRUIT MORE WOMEN, WE NEED TO ATTRACT MORE LATINOSES SO WE SHOULD RECRUIT LATINOS.
IS THIS THAT?
IS THE ARGUMENT MORE AFRICAN AMERICANS ARE GOING TO VOTE BECAUSE OF THEIR CANDIDATES?
BECAUSE I'VE GOT TO TELL YOU THEIR POLITICS ARE WILDLY OUT OF STEP WITH WHAT THE MAJORITY OF AFRICAN AMERICANS GENERALLY BELIEVE AND HOW THEY STRUCTURE THEIR POLITICS.
YEAH, SO CERTAINLY THERE IS THIS THREAD THAT IF YOU HAVE CANDIDATES THAT LOOK LIKE THE VOTERS YOU'RE TRYING TO ATTRACT THAT MAKES THE ATTRACTION EASIER.
THAT'S NOT BEEN TRUE FOR THE REPUBLICAN PARTY FOR SEVERAL DECADES.
AND THEN IT'S NOT JUST THAT BUT THE QUALITY OF THE CANDIDATES YOU'RE RECRUITING.
WHEN BARACK OBAMA WAS RUNNING FOR SENATE IN ILLINOIS AND HIS OPPONENT FELL OUT OF THE RACE, THEY RECRUITED ALLEN KEYS, A BLACK REPUBLICAN FROM MARYLAND, IMPORTED HIM INTO ILLINOIS AND SAID YOU KNOW, NOW GO CHALLENGE THE OTHER BLACK GUY FOR THE SENATE SEAT.
HERSCHEL WALKER, HE WAS RECRUITED AND GIVEN THE STAMP -- THE TRUMP STAMP OF APPROVAL.
BUT THE QUALITY OF THE CANDIDATE DOESN'T ATTRACT MORE BLACK VOTERS TO THE PARTY.
IT'S ACTUALLY DAMAGING IN MY VIEW.
AND UNFORTUNATELY, SOMETIMES STRATEGISTS, THEY MISS THAT PART.
GET A BLACK PERSON, STICK THEM IN THE ROLE, THEY'LL IMMEDIATELY ATTRACT SOME BLACK VOTE, THAT MAKES IT EASIER -- OUR PATH TO VICTORY A LITTLE EASIER.
IT'S JUST NOT TRUE.
SO QUALITY OF THE CANDIDATE MATTERS.
AND AGAIN, AS YOU MENTIONED, THAT SORT OF DISTINGUISHED BACKGROUND IN TRADITIONALLY CONSERVATIVE FIELDS LIKE THE MILITARY OR LAW ENFORCEMENT OR SMALL BUSINESS OWNERS.
TIM SCOTT IS THE PROFILE OF THE KIND OF BLACK BUSINESS OWNER THAT REPUBLICANS COULD RECRUIT IN ORDER TO TRY TO ATTRACT MORE BLACK VOTERS.
AND IF YOU LOOK AT HOW SCOTT HAS DONE IN SOUTH CAROLINA, HE DID BETTER THAN TRUMP DID WITH BLACK VOTERS IN SOUTH CAROLINA.
MARGINALLY BETTER BUT BETTER.
SO -- BUT TIM SCOTT AND HERSCHEL WALKER ARE TWO DIFFERENT TYPES OF CANDIDATES.
CONDOLEEZZA RICE AND ALLEN WEST TWO DIFFERENT KINDS OF CANDIDATES -- OR TWO DIFFERENT KINDS OF BLACK REPUBLICANS.
SO THE IDEA THAT RACE ALONE AND PARTY AFFILIATION ALONE IS ENOUGH TO DIVERSIFY THE PARTY TENT IS WRONG AND DECADES OF RACES HAVE PROVED THIS OUT TO BE TRUE.
BUT ONE OF THE THINGS I THINK IS SO NOTEWORTHY ABOUT THE CANDIDATES RUNNING IS THEY ARE ELECTION DENIERS.
THEY ASSERT THAT THE ELECTION WAS STOLEN, YOU KNOW, WRONGLY DECIDED.
AT THE CORE OF THIS ARGUMENT IS THAT A CANDIDATE WHO IS FAVORED BY A MAJORITY OF PEOPLE OTHER THAN YOU COULD NOT POSSIBLY BE LEGITIMATE.
RIGHT?
AND THIS REALLY STRIKES AT THE CORE FOR MANY AFRICAN AMERICAN VOTERS WHO HAVE BEEN TOLD THROUGHOUT HISTORY THAT THEY ARE NOT LEGITIMATE VOTERS, THEY'RE NOT REALLY CITIZENS, THEY DON'T REALLY DESERVE THE FULL RIGHT TO CITIZENSHIP.
SO THE COURT OF IT IS SORT OF DEEPLY OFFENSIVE TO MANY AFRICAN AMERICAN VOTERS.
I JUST HAVE TO ASK YOU WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT?
HERE'S THE UNCOMFORTABLE TRUTH, IS IF YOU ARE A BLACK REPUBLICAN RUNNING IN A CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICT THAT'S BEEN GERRYMANDERED TO BE FAVORABLE TO REPUBLICANS YOU DON'T NEED BLACK VOTERS TO WIN THE RACE.
AND SO THE THINGS YOU MAY SAY THAT MAY OFFEND BLACK SENSIBILITY GENERALLY WON'T HARM YOUR ELECTORAL PROSPECTS AS LONG AS THEY DON'T OFFEND THE REPUBLICAN BASE THAT GOT YOU THROUGH THE PRIMARY AND THAT'S GOING TO SEND YOU TO CONGRESS.
NOW, IN THOSE PURPLE DISTRICTS, OR PLACES THAT MAY LEAN ONE WAY OR THE OTHER AND MIGHT BE A LITTLE MORE COMPETITIVE, YOU'RE MORE LIKELY TO SEE THOSE BLACK REPUBLICANS NOT ADHERING AS CLOSELY OR SORT OF LATCHING ON TO THE BIG LIE OR THE DOBBS DECISION.
THEY MAY TRY TO MUTE THAT PART OF THEIR RECORD OR REMOVE THAT PART OF THEIR CAMPAIGN WEBSITE IN ORDER TO ATTRACT A BROADER COALITION OF VOTERS THAT THEY'LL NEED TO WIN.
THE BOTTOM LINE HERE IS ALL OF THIS IS ABOUT ELECTORAL EXPEDIENCE.
WHAT IS THE MESSAGE I NEED TO PUT OUT TO HELP ME WIN?
BUT YOU KNOW WHAT I THINK I HEAR YOU SAYING, THOUGH, IS THAT AMONG WHITE CONSERVATIVE REPUBLICANS, AT LEAST AMONG WHITE REPUBLICANS WHO ARE VERY PRO TRUMP, RACE IS NOT THE SIGNIFICANT FACTOR ANYMORE.
IT'S WHETHER YOU BELIEVE THAT TRUMP IS THE RIGHTFUL PRESIDENT.
THAT'S NEW, ISN'T IT?
THAT IS.
THE HYPERPARTISANSHIP, THIS TOXIC POLARIZATION, HAS DEFINITELY CHANGED THE POLITICAL LANDSCAPE IN WAYS THAT I THINK IS SURPRISING TO THOSE OF US THAT HAVE BEEN LOOKING AT IT FOR YEARS.
BUT HERE'S WHAT I'D SAY.
IT'S NOT THAT RACE DOESN'T MATTER TO CONSERVATIVES ANYMORE.
ALL OF THE STUDIES STILL SHOW THERE ARE HIGHER LEVELS OF RACIAL RESENTMENT.
WHICH IS KIND OF A CONTESTED SCORE OF THINGS.
BUT IS SOMETHING THAT'S BEEN MEASURED OVER TIME, SO WE CAN AT LEAST COMPARE APPLES TO APPLES.
VERSUS WHITE REPUBLICANS, WHITE REPUBLICANS TEND TO HOLD A HIGHER LEVEL OF THIS RACIAL RESENTMENT SCORE.
SO WHAT WE'RE SEEING NOW POST OBAMA, CERTAINLY WITH THE TEA PARTY AND WITH TRUMPISM IS THAT FOR BLACK CANDIDATES OR MINORITY CANDIDATES WRIT LARGE THAT ARE WILLING TO REALLY NARROW THEMSELVES TO THE TEA PARTY PHILOSOPHY, TO TRUMPISM, THAT THAT CONNECTION TO THAT IDEOLOGY OUTWEIGHS WHATEVER RESISTANCE OR RESENTMENTS FOLKS MAY HAVE ON THE BASIS OF RACE.
IF WE LOOK AT THE TEA PARTY MOVEMENT ACROSS THE COUNTRY, THAT WAS THE TIME BOBBY JINDAL WINS THE GOVERNORSHIP IN LOUISIANA.
NIKKI HALEY WINS THE GOVERNORSHIP IN SOUTH CAROLINA.
TED CRUZ, MARCO RUBIO, TIM SCOTT, MIA LOVE, ALL OF THESE CANDIDATES ARE ABLE TO WIN BY CLINGING MORE CLOSELY TO THE TEA PARTY PHILOSOPHY THAN THE REPUBLICAN ESTABLISHMENT CATEGORIES CANDIDATES THEY WERE RUNNING AGAINST IN THE PRIMARIES.
SO WHATEVER RESENTMENTS PRIMARY REPUBLICAN VOTERS MAY HOLD TOWARD MINORITY CANDIDATES, WHEN THOSE MINORITY CANDIDATES SHOW THAT THEY'RE MORE CONSERVATIVE, THAT THEY'RE MORE IDEOLOGICAL THAN THE WHITE COMPETITION THEN RACE ISN'T THE HINDRANCE THAT IT MIGHT BE IN ANOTHER SET OF CIRCUMSTANCES.
AND WHAT MAGA HAS DONE HAS PROVIDED ANOTHER SET OF COVER FOR MINORITY CANDIDATES TO CLING TO THAT, WHICH THEN REDUCES THE INFLUENCE OF THEIR RACE OR ETHNICITY OR EVEN GENDER MIGHT OTHERWISE HAVE IN A DIFFERENT SET OF POLITICAL CIRCUMSTANCES.
THERE COULD BE A HISTORIC NUMBER OF BLACK REPUBLICANS IN CONGRESS IN THE NEXT COUPLE OF YEARS, AND MANY OF THEM, MOST OF THEM, ARE VERY, VERY CONSERVATIVE.
HOW DO YOU THINK IT WILL CHANGE THINGS?
OR DO YOU THINK IT WILL?
YEAH, SO IT WILL REALLY DEPEND ON THE QUALITY OF THE CANDIDATES THAT ARRIVE IN CONGRESS.
IF WE HAVE A HISTORIC CLASS BUT THEY'RE EIGHT HERSCHEL WALKERS, THAT'S NOT GOING TO CHANGE MUCH.
IN TERMS OF SORT OF THE BLACK ELECTORATE'S VOTING ATTITUDES OR BEHAVIORS.
BUT IF YOU HAVE THREE OR FOUR THAT ARE COLIN POWELL, CONDI RICE-LIKE, OVER TIME PERHAPS THAT DOES BEGIN TO OPEN SOME AVENUES.
THE QUESTION IS COULD A COLIN POWELL OR CONDOLEEZZA RICE BE ELECTED TO CONGRESS IN TODAY'S POLITICAL ENVIRONMENT?
COLIN POWELL COULD NOT.
HE COULDN'T DO IT AT THE HEIGHT OF HIS POPULARITY IN THE LATE '90s.
PERHAPS.
MAYBE IF HE'D DECIDED TO RUN FOR PRESIDENT MAYBE A DOOR WOULD HAVE OPENED.
BUT THE PAT BUCHANAN WING OF THE PARTY WAS ALREADY BOXING THAT KIND OF STUFF OUT.
SO THE POLITICAL ENVIRONMENT NOW, ESPECIALLY WITH TRUMP STILL DOMINATING THE NEWS CYCLE AND THE AIRWAVES, REQUIRES MINORITY CANDIDATES MORE TIMES THAN NOT TO ALIGNS THEMSELVES WITH SOMETHING THAT BLACK VOERS GENERALLY REJECT.
SO IF YOU SEND A HISTORIC NUMBER OF THOSE KINDS OF CANDIDATES INTO CONGRESS, THAT IS NOT GOING TO INCREASE THE ATTRACTION OF THE PARTY TO BLACK VOTERS.
IN FACT, IT WILL MORE LIKELY OSTRACIZE THOSE BLACK REPUBLICANS FROM BLACK AMERICA INSTEAD OF MAKING THE PARTY MORE ATTRACTIVE.
SO YOU HAVE TO HAVE QUALITY CANDIDATES WHO ARE PRINCIPLED, WHO ARE CONSISTENT, AND WHO CAN STILL SPEAK TO THE BLACK EXPERIENCE IN AMERICA.
AND YOU KNOW, YOU'VE SEEN THE POLLS.
SOMETHING LIKE AT ANY GIVEN TIME 20% TO 30% OF BLACK FOLKS IDENTIFY AS CONSERVATIVE.
BLACK CONSERVATISM IS A LITTLE DIFFERENT FROM WHITE CONSERVATISM.
BUT IF YOU HAVE A PRINCIPLED BLACK CONSERVATIVE WHO STANDS BY HIS OR HER PRINCIPLES AND SERVES THAT WAY, WILLING TO VOTE THEIR CONSCIENCE AND NOT JUST BE A PARTY SOLDIER, THEN PERHAPS OVER TIME IF THOSE NUMBERS INCREASE THE PARTY BECOMES MORE ATTRACTIVE.
LOOKING IN MY CRYSTAL BALL, I DON'T THINK THAT'S THE WAY IT'S GOING TO GO.
I THINK WHATEVER THE NATURE OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY WILL BE MINORITY CANDIDATES WILL PROBABLY BE THE SUPERLATIVE CHARACTERIZATION OF THAT NATURE AND THAT WILL OFTEN, UNLESS THINGS CHANGE, WILL NOT BE THAT ATTRACTIVE TO BLACK VOTERS.
AND AS WE'VE SEEN OVER THE COURSE OF THE LAST 60 YEARS THE REPUBLICAN BRAND IS LESS ATTRACTIVE OVER TIME AND TODAY THE LEAST ATTRACTIVE IT'S BEEN, YOU KNOW, CERTAINLY SINCE THE EARLY 20th CENTURY.
I DON'T HAVE HIGH HOPES THAT A DIVERSIFYING REPUBLICAN CONGRESSIONAL BODY WILL ATTRACT MORE BLACK VOTERS TO THE CONGRESSIONAL, PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION ROLES.
THANKS SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.
THANK YOU.
WHAT INTERESTING FINDINGS.
AND FINALLY TONIGHT, A UNIQUE TAKE ON POLITICS FROM A CELEBRATED SATIRIST AND UNCANNY SHOW CREATOR.
ARMANDO IANNUCCI IS THE DRIVING FORCE BEHIND AWARD-WINNING SERIES LIKE 'VEEP' AND 'THE THICK OF IT.'
AND WITH SO MANY REAL-LIFE POLITICIANS BEHAVING LIKE CHARACTERS ON THOSE SHOWS HE TOLD ME WHAT INSPIRES HIM.
I WANT POLITICS TO WORK.
THAT'S WHY I'VE SPENT A LOT OF TIME DOING THINGS LIKE 'THE THICK OF IT' AND 'VEEP.'
BECAUSE I WANT TO SHOW WHERE HAS IT GONE WRONG, WHERE ARE THE FRUSTRATIONS, AND WHAT CAN WE DO ABOUT IT.
I'M ALWAYS ASKING THE VIEWER WHAT WOULD YOU DO IF YOU WERE IN THAT POSITION.
I THINK AT THE MOMENT, THOUGH, WE NOW HAVE A GENERATION OF POLITICIANS WHO'VE GROWN UP KIND OF COSPLAYING POLITICS.
YOU CAN SEE OUR FULL CONVERSATION TOMORROW.
AND THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.
REMEMBER, YOU CAN FOLLOW ME AND THE SHOW ON TWITTER.
THANK YOU FOR WATCHING 'AMANPOUR & COMPANY' ON PBS, AND JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.