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> HELLO EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO 'AMON POUR AND COMPANY.'
HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.
THIS WAS A VIOLENT ATTACK.
IT WAS SENSELESS, AND I AM SO SORRY IT HAPPENED.
AN ISIS SUPPORTER ON THE RAMPAGE IN NEW ZEALAND.
FORMER AL QUAEDA DOUBLE AGENT AMON DEAN TAKES US INSIDE THE NEXT CHAPTER OF GLOBAL ISLAMIST EXTREMISM.
> THEN 20 YEARS AFTER 9/11.
YOU PEOPLE UNDERSTAND WE'RE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO HAGGLE EVERY CASE SUBJECTIVELY.
THAT'S WHERE THE MATH COMES IN.
THE NEW FILM STARRING MICHAEL KEATON, WHO DECIDED THE WORTH OF EACH LIFE LOST IN THE ATTACKS.
IT'S BIGGER THAN FOOTBALL.
IT'S BIGGER THAN JUST WINNING.
WALTER ISAACSON CHANGES LIVES IN NEW ORLEANS.
> I HOPE IT SENDS THE MESSAGE TO IMGRAPTS AROUND THE WORLD THAT THEY ADD SO MUCH VALUE TO THEIR HOST COMMUNITIES.
WITH CIVILIANS LEAVING AFGHANISTAN, I KEEP TO THE SYRIAN REFUGEE ABOUT HIS NEW MEMOIR, 'HOPE, NOT FEAR.'
> 'AMANPOUR & COMPANY' IS MADE POSSIBLE BY SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III, CANDACE KING WEIR, THE CHERYL AND PHILIP MILSTEIN FAMILY, THE ANDERSON FAMILY FUND, THE STRAUSS FAMILY FOUNDATION, JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, BERNARD AND DENISE SCHWARTZ, KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.
ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.
THANK YOU.
> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.
I'M CHRISTIAN AMANPOUR IN LONDON.
TALIBAN SET TO ANNOUNCE A NEW GOVERNMENT, BUT WITHIN AFGHANISTAN THERE IS STILL ACTIVE RESISTANCE TO THEIR RULE.
THERE IS FIERCE FIGHTING GOING ON IN THE NORTHERN PANJSHIR VALLEY WHILE IN KABUL AND OTHER ACTIVIST CITIES, WOMEN BRAVELY PROTEST FOR EQUAL RIGHTS.
ACROSS THE WORLD IN NEW ZEALAND, THE PRIME MINISTER SAID A KNOWN SUPPORTER OF ISIS WAS SHOT AND KILLED AFTER STABBING SIX PEOPLE IN A TERRORIST ATTACK IN AUCKLAND.
IT IS THE FIRST SUCH ATTACK SINCE THE TALIBAN AND ISIS-K TOOK HOLD IN AFGHANISTAN.
MIGHT THE ATTACK BEEN INSPIRED AT ALL BY EVENTS THERE.
AMON DEAN IS A FORMER JIHADIST MEMBER OF AL QUAEDA WHO DOUBLED OVER.
HE'S JOINING ME NOW.
WE COME TO THE PROGRAM.
AMON DEAN, WHAT DID YOU THINK WHEN YOU HEARD THAT THIS HAD HAPPENED AND IT'S BEING ATTRIBUTED TO ISIS IDEOLOGY ALL THE WAY OVER IN NEW ZEALAND?
IT SIGNALS THAT, WELL, THERE IS A RENEWED HOPE FOR THOSE WHO WERE INSPIRED BY ISIS SINCE 2014.
AND OF COURSE THEIR MORALE WAS BROKEN IN 2019 WHEN THEIR CALIPH WAS DESTROYED IN IRAQ AND SYRIA.
NONETHELESS, THEY FEEL THAT THE DEPARTURE OF THE UNITED STATES FROM AFGHANISTAN AND THE RELEASE OF SO MANY ISIS PRISONERS FROM THE PRISONS THERE WILL GIVE THEM A RENEWED HOPE, A SENSE OF HOPE.
SO, THE ATTACK IN KABUL HAPPENED.
OF COURSE IT WILL INSPIRE OTHERS TO COME OUT OF THEIR SLEEPER CELL MODE, IF YOU CAN CALL IT THIS WAY, AND START ATTACKING, YOU KNOW, THEIR OWN COUNTRIES.
DO YOU FEAR, GIVEN ALL YOUR EXPERIENCE, YOU KNOW, HAVING BEEN IN A TALIBAN CAMP WITH AL QUAEDA FOR A WHILE, THEN TURNING, FLIPPING, KNOWING SO MUCH THAT YOU DO KNOW FROM DIRECT EXPERIENCE.
DO YOU BELIEVE WITH THE TALIBAN NOW BACK IN CONTROL AND, AS I SAID, AN ISIS-K MOVEMENT IN AFGHANISTAN, THAT IT WILL BECOME, AGAIN, A HAVEN, A SAFE HAVEN FOR THE KIND OF TERRORISM THAT COMMITTED 9/11?
WELL, ANYONE WHO LIVED IN THE CAMPS AS LONG AS I DID, WILL TELL YOU AFGHANISTAN IS VERY HARD TO POLICE EITHER BY THE TALIBAN OR ANY STRONG MILITARY POWER.
THEREFORE THE MANY VALUES AND THE RAVINES AND THE EXPANSE OF THE CAVE NETWORKS THERE WILL GIVE ANY GROUP THE ABILITY TO START MILITARY TRAINING CAMPS AND WITH NOW THE ABILITY TO HAVE COMMUNICATION WITH THE OUTSIDE WORLD, WHICH WASN'T AVAILABLE THE BEFORE 9/11, IN THE FORM OF PHONE AND INTERNET, IT WILL BECOME A SAFE HAVEN AGAIN FOR THOSE WHO WANT TO FORMULATE PLOTS AGAINST THEIR OWN COUNTRIES WHETHER IN THE WEST OR THE EAST.
AMON, YOU KNOW, BACK IN THE '90s, THE WEST TRIED TO GET THE TALIBAN TO EXPEL AL QUAEDA, EVEN BEFORE 9/11.
AGAIN, YOU WERE THERE.
THEY OBVIOUSLY ARE TELLING THE CURRENT TALIBAN NOT TO ALLOW IT TO INVITE, YOU KNOW, TERRORISTS BACK IN.
FROM WHAT YOU REMEMBER -- AND WHAT DO YOU REMEMBER -- ABOUT HOW THEY REACTED TO THIS WESTERN DEMAND BACK THEN AND WHAT THEY MIGHT DO NOW?
WELL, I MEAN, THE PROBLEM IS THERE ARE MANY PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE THE TALIBAN CHANGED.
YOU KNOW, HOW CAN WE SAY THAT WHEN ACTUALLY FOR 19 YEARS AL QUAEDA FIGHTERS WERE FIGHTING ALONGSIDE THEM AGAINST THE AMERICAN FORCES AND NATO FORCES AND THE AFGHAN GOVERNMENT?
SO, 19 YEARS OF CAMARADERIE, THEY ARE NOT GOING TO BASICALLY JUST ABANDON THIS IN A WHIM.
AND THEREFORE I BELIEVE THAT THE TALIBAN WILL CONTINUE TO HAVE THAT SOFT SPOT IN THEIR HEARTS TOWARDS THOSE WHO BASICALLY PREACH GLOBAL JIHAD.
THEY MIGHT NOT BELIEVE IN GLOBAL JIHAD THEMSELVES AND ITS IDEOLOGY, BUT THEY BELIEVE IN SUPPORTING THOSE WHO ARE CALLING THEIR IDEOLOGY OPPRESSED.
AND THEREFORE THEY WILL CONTINUE SUPPORTING AL QUAEDA AND HOSTING THEM IN A CLANDESTINE WAY, AT LEAST, FOR THE FORESEEABLE FUTURE.
AND JUST TO REMIND, THEY REFUSED THE WESTERN DEMAND TO THROW OUT AL QUAEDA LAST TIME, AND THAT LED TO 9/11 EVENTUALLY.
WHAT DO WE THINK NOW AS WE READ REPORTS OF THE TALIBAN OFFICIALS, QATARI OFFICIALS, ALL THE WESTERN OFFICIALS.
THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT A NEW GOVERNMENT THERE.
WHAT KIND OF A TALIBAN GOVERNMENT DO YOU THINK THEY CAN SET UP, AND WHAT WILL THEY DO?
WELL, I MEAN, FOR THE TALIBAN THEY DID NOT FIGHT 19 YEARS ONLY BASICALLY TO HAVE A GOVERNMENT THAT DOESN'T LOOK -- THAT DOESN'T LOOK EXACTLY LIKE THE GOVERNMENT THEY HAD BEFORE 9/11.
THE TALIBAN BELONG TO THE DEBANNED SCHOOL OF JURISPRUDENCE IN ISLAM.
THEY ARE QUITE STRICT ABOUT THE APPLICATION OF SHARIA, ACCORDING TO THE TEACHINGS OF THE SCHOOL.
AND THEREFORE THEY WILL CONTINUE TO DO WHAT THEY DID BASICALLY IN THE 1990s.
ALL BITE WITH A LITTLE BIT MORE MODERATE, SOFTER TONE TO SOME OF THE ASPECT OF SOCIAL LIFE, SUCH AS, YOU KNOW, FEMALE EDUCATION AND EMPLOYMENT.
BUT THERE WILL BE WORKING SO HARD IN ORDER TO PUSH BACK THE GAINS THAT WOMEN MADE THROUGHOUT THE PAST 19 YEARS.
BUT NONETHELESS IT'S NOT GOING TO BE MUCH DIFFERENT FROM, YOU KNOW, 1996 UNTIL 2001.
AND YOU'VE WRITTEN ABOUT ALL OF THIS IN YOUR MEMOIR.
YOU WERE PART OF THEM.
YOU BELIEVED IN IT.
YOU FLIPPED.
YOU HELPED MI-6.
YOU HELPED SAVE SOME U.S. LIVES.
SO, YOU TOOK THE MEASURE OF THEM.
RIGHT NOW, WE HAVE WOMEN IN VARIOUS CITIES PROTESTING.
THEY'RE COMING OUT IN KABUL, HERAT AND OTHER PLACES TO DEMAND THEIR EQUAL RIGHTS.
WE HAVE THIS NASCENT RESISTANCE MOVEMENT, THE SON OF THE GREAT AMAD SHARMA PSEUDOIS TRYING TO PUSH BACK.
DOES THIS HAVE ANY CHANCE AT ALL?
LET'S TALK ABOUT THE ARMED RESISTANCE AGAINST THEM.
I DON'T THINK THEY DO.
AND THERE IS A GOOD REASON FOR THAT.
IT'S BECAUSE IN BETWEEN 1996 AND 2001, THE BORDER WITH TAJIKISTAN WAS OPEN WIDE AND IT WAS UNDER THE CONTROL OF FORCES.
NOW, HOWEVER, THE BORDER CROSSINGS, ALL OF THEM BASICALLY ARE CONTROLLED BY THE TALIBAN.
AND THEREFORE THE FORCES OF HIS SON AND THE VICE PRESIDENT, THE SELF-APPOINTED PRESIDENT, THEIR FORCES ARE MORE OR LESS CONCENTRATED IN THE PANJSHIR VALLEY BUT SURROUNDED BY TALIBAN TERRITORY.
UNLESS YOU SUPPLY THEM FROM THE AIR, WHERE WILL THE SUPPLIES PUT UP?
THEY WILL PUT UP A RESISTANCE FOR A MONTH OR TWO OR MAYBE LAST THE WINTER.
BUT SOME NEXT SPRING, NEXT SUMMER, WILL THEY BE ABLE TO LAST WITHOUT A BORDER, WITHOUT AN OUTSIDE FRIENDLY NATION LIKE TAJIKISTAN, I DON'T SEE ANY HOPE FOR THEM UNLESS THEY PUSH REALLY HARD TOWARD THE NORTH TO CAPTURE BORDER CROSSINGS, I DON'T SEE THIS HAPPENING.
MEANTIME OF COURSE THE TALIBAN HAVE SUCKED UP ALL THE IMPORTANT MILITARY EQUIPMENT AND ALL THE INFRASTRUCTURE THAT THE U.S. AND NATO HAS LEFT BEHIND.
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR PERSPECTIVE ON THIS.
> NOW, THE GLOBAL WAR ON TERROR IS A DIRECT PRODUCT OF AL QUAEDA'S SEPTEMBER 11th ATTACKS 20 YEARS AGO THIS MONTH.
A NEW NETFLIX MOVIE CALLED 'WORTH' EXPLORES THE DAUNTING CHALLENGE BEHIND THE SEPTEMBER 11th VICTIM COMPENSATION FUND.
IT WAS THE FIRST OF ITS KIND, DECIDING WHAT EACH INDIVIDUAL LIFE WAS WORTH TO THOSE LEFT BEHIND.
HERE'S A LOOK.
PAYMENT FOR EVERYBODY.
MY DAUGHTERS WERE JUST AS MUCH AS ANYBODY.
MY WIFE DIED THAT DAY, AND EVERYTHING ABOUT THIS FORMULA OFFENDS ME.
SORRY TO HEAR THAT, BUT WE CAN'T BEND THE RULES FOR EVERY CASE.
WHY NOT?
CONGRESS GIVES YOU BROAD DISCRETION.
BUT WHEN 7,000 CITIZENS ASK YOU NOT TO BE TREATED LIKE SOME NUMBERS ON A SPREADSHEET, YOU ACT LIKE THAT LAW CAME DOWN FROM CYANIDE.
KENNETH FINEBERG WAS THE LAWYER PLACED IN CHARGE OF THE COMPENSATION FUND.
HE'S PLAYED BY MICHAEL KEATON IN A SCRIPT WRITTEN BY MAX BORSTEIN AND THEY JOIN ME NOW.
GREAT FILM.
I'VE SEEN IT.
REALLY, REALLY INTERESTING.
AND I WONDER IF ANY OF YOU THOUGHT IT WOULD BE RELEASED NOT JUST ON THE ANNIVERSARY BUT WITH THIS IMPLOSION HAPPENING IN AFGHANISTAN WITH THE SAME FORCES RISING AGAIN IN AFGHANISTAN?
MICHAEL KEATON, WHAT DO YOU THINK KNOWING THAT YOUR FILM IS COMING OUT IN THIS UNBELIEVABLE ATMOSPHERE?
WELL, NO.
THE ANSWER IS NO.
COULD I HAVE IMAGINED THIS?
NO.
THERE WAS A CONCERTED EFFORT AFTER A WHILE TO HOLD THE MOVIE TO COINCIDE CLOSELY WITH THE ANNIVERSARY, WHICH I THINK IS A GOOD DECISION.
BUT WHAT'S HAPPENED NOW, THE IMPLOSION OR EXPLOSION, NO.
AND IT'S SO DISTURBING AND COMPLEX.
NOW, WHETHER OR NOT THAT ADDS TO, YOU KNOW, THE GENERAL INTEREST IN IT AND PEOPLE BEING MORE CURIOUS ABOUT IT.
FIRST OF ALL, FOR MANY PEOPLE WHO WERE IN THEIR -- WHO ARE YOUNGER, THIS WILL ALL BE NEW ANYWAY.
I DON'T KNOW.
YOU KNOW, IT SOUNDS TOO OPPORTUNISTIC, I THINK, TO SAY, GEE, THIS IS A GREAT THING OR THIS IS A BAD THING.
IT IS WHAT IT IS.
AND I THINK THEY'RE KIND OF -- THEY'RE NOT TWO SEPARATE THINGS.
BUT IN THIS CASE WE JUST WANTED TO TELL THE STORY OF THE COMPENSATION FUND AND HOW IT WORKED AND ALSO TO SAY WHAT IT MEANT TO NOT ONLY NEW YORK BUT TO AMERICA AND THE WORLD REALLY.
SO, LET ME ASK YOU, MAX, BECAUSE YOU'RE THE SCREENWRITER, THE SCRIPT WRITER.
SO, HOW DO YOU TELL A STORY THAT IS EMOTIONAL BUT ALSO QUITE DRY AND FACTUAL AND FINANCIAL?
YOU KNOW, TO HAVE THE KIND OF IMPACT THAT MICHAEL IS TALKING ABOUT?
WELL, THAT WAS THE CHALLENGE.
I MEAN, I THINK FINDING, I THINK, THROUGH KEN'S EYES AND SPEAKING TO KEN ABOUT HIS JOURNEY EMOTIONALLY AS A GOVERNMENT -- A CIVIL SERVANT WHOSE JOB IT WAS TO EXECUTE A LAW BUT WHO WAS THRUST INTO A POSITION OF HAVING TO DEAL WITH THE WIDE SWATH OF LIVES IMPACTED TRAUMATICALLY BY 9/11.
IT WAS A TELLING A STORY THROUGH HIS EYES THAT IN OTHER WAYS COULD HAVE FALLEN INTO A DRY, BUREAUCRATIC, PROCEDURAL OR ON THE OTHER HAND VERY INTO MELLOW DRAMA.
SO, HOPEFULLY WE ACHIEVED THAT.
BUT WALKING THE LINE BETWEEN THOSE TWO POLES WAS THE CHALLENGE.
YEAH, IT'S SO INTERESTING YOU SAY DRY, MELODRAMA BUT ALSO THE EMOTION OF IT.
EVERYBODY IS GOING TO REMEMBER WHERE THEY WERE ON 9/11.
THE FOUR OF YOU ARE WHAT TRANSPIRED LITERALLY FULL CIRCLE.
WHAT HAPPENED IN THESE LAST 20 YEARS.
KEN FINEBERG, YOU HAVE DONE THIS.
THIS WAS THE FIRST OF ITS KIND AND YOU AND YOUR COLLEAGUES HAVE DONE THE SAME IN OTHER VICTIM COMPENSATION FUNDS SUBSEQUENTLY.
HOW IMPORTANT WAS IT FOR YOU TO TAKE ON THIS ROLE TO ACCEPT THE PRESIDENT ASKING YOU TO DO IT AND TO ACHIEVE WHAT YOU ACHIEVED?
WELL, I THINK WHEN I VOLUNTEERED TO DO THIS AND TO DO IT WITHOUT COMPENSATION, IT WAS A PATRIOTIC THING TO DO.
I THINK THERE WERE PROBABLY MILLIONS OF AMERICANS THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN WILLING TO TRY AND DO THIS.
I JUST THOUGHT AT THE TIME EVERYBODY WAS TRYING TO DO WHAT THEY COULD DO TO ASSIST THE COUNTRY AND ASSIST THE VICTIMS.
WHAT MADE THIS SO DIFFICULT WAS THE FACT THAT JUST 13 DAYS AFTER THE ATTACKS, THE FUND WAS CREATED.
THERE WAS NO TIME FOR MOURNING OR TO ASSUAGE GRIEF.
WE WERE DEALING WITH VERY RAW, EMOTIONAL INDIVIDUALS.
AND ONE THING ABOUT THE SCREENPLAY AND MICHAEL'S PORTRAYAL, THEY CAUGHT IT.
I WAS VERY DUBIOUS AT THE TIME THAT MY BOOK COULD EVER BE TURNED INTO A FILM.
BUT MATT REENFORCED THE NOTION THAT IT COULD BE DONE.
MICHAEL KEATON HIT IT TO A TEE PERFECTLY, AS DID THE OTHERS IN THE MOVIE.
AND MUCH TO MY SURPRISE AND SATISFACTION, THE MOVIE IS A PRETTY FAIR DEPICTION OF WHAT WE WENT THROUGH WITH THE 9/11 FUND.
SO, THAT IS HIGH PRAISE, INDEED, FROM THE MAN AT THE CENTER.
MICHAEL KEATON, WHAT MADE YOU WANT TO PLAY KEITH FINEBERG?
HOW MUCH INTERACTION DID YOU HAVE?
HOW MUCH RESEARCH DID YOU DO WITH HIM?
AND YOU'RE BOTH TALKING TO ME NOW, AND IT'S GREAT TO HAVE THE TWO PROTAGONIST, SILVER SCREEN AND REAL LIFE, TALK ABOUT THIS RELATIONSHIP.
WHAT WAS IT LIKE FOR YOU LEARNING ABOUT HIM AND HOW HE DID IT?
KEN FINEBERG, HE -- HE -- THERE'S NO WAY TO DO THIS.
AT LEAST I CAN'T DO IT WITHOUT KNOWING -- MEETING AND TALKING TO THE ACTUAL PERSON.
I ENJOY HIS COMPANY AN AWFUL LOT, SO THAT MADE IT THAT MUCH EASIER.
AND I DRILLED DOWN PRETTY DEEPLY WITH HIM, BUT, YOU KNOW, AT SOME POINT YOU JUST HAVE TO INTERPRET -- INTERPRET IT, YOU KNOW?
AND OTHERWISE WE'RE ALL MAKING A DOCUMENTARY.
AND WE'VE GOT TO TELL A STORY IN TWO HOURS.
THAT'S A WHOLE OTHER DISCUSSION ON HOW TO DO IT.
SO, ASKING KEN THE APPROPRIATE QUESTIONS.
BUT THEN ALSO JUST OBSERVING HIM AND THE WAY A PERSON WALKS, TALKS, EXPRESSES HIMSELF WILL TELL YOU A LOT ABOUT THEMSELVES WITHOUT KNOWING THAT THEY'RE TELLING YOU ABOUT THEMSELVES IF YOU'RE OBSERVING HIM.
SO, JUST -- HONESTLY I KEEP SAYING THIS, BUT REALLY IT'S JUST THE JOB.
YOU JUST DO THE WORK.
I REALLY WANTED TO DO THIS.
I THOUGHT MAX DID A REALLY -- HE'S A GREAT WRITER.
HE -- WHEN WE FIRST MET A LONG TIME AGO ABOUT THIS, BEFORE WE EVEN MADE THE MOVIE, I THOUGHT THIS IS A STORY THAT HAS TO BE TOLD, I THINK.
AND I KNEW IT WAS DIFFICULT AND HE KNEW IT WAS DIFFICULT.
AND IT'S IMPORTANT, YOU KNOW?
IT IS.
I DON'T WANT TO SOUND PRETENTIOUS OR -- ACTUALLY I DON'T CARE HOW I SOUND.
IT IS IMPORTANT.
MOVIES LIKE THIS ARE IMPORTANT.
THERE AREN'T MANY OF THEM AROUND ANYMORE.
AND I WILL TELL YOU THIS.
KEN I AND TALK ABOUT THIS A LOT.
HE KEEPS SAYING, HE COULDN'T DO THIS TODAY BECAUSE OF THE DIVISIVENESS.
AND I THINK HE'S PROBABLY RIGHT.
AND I FIND IT SICKENING.
AND I WATCHED BIDEN THIS MORNING AND I THOUGHT HIS SPEECH WAS REALLY GOOD.
I KIND OF WISHED HE HAD SAID, YOU KNOW WHAT?
THESE JOB NUMBERS AREN'T GOOD.
AND THEN HE WENT FROM THERE.
BUT HE WAS CORRECT IN WHAT HE SAID GENERALLY.
BUT WHAT HE TALKS ABOUT -- I LIKE WHEN HE GOES OFF SCRIPT AND JUST SPEAKS TO SOMEONE.
WITHOUT SOUNDING POLIANNISH, THIS IS EXACTLY THE TIME.
WE CAN'T WASTE THIS STUPID ENERGY ON THIS.
BACK THEN PEOPLE DIDN'T HAVE THE TIME TO SAY, WELL, HE'S A JERK.
I HATE THAT SENATOR.
THERE WAS NO TIME FOR THAT.
AND THE TRUTH IS THERE'S NO TIME FOR IT NOW.
THERE'S NO TIME FOR THAT.
WHETHER YOU LIKE SOMEBODY OR NOT, THAT'S BESIDE THE POINT.
WE'VE GOT WORK TO DO.
IDA.
OKAY.
COVID.
EXACTLY.
I'D LIKE TO PLAY A CLIP BECAUSE YOU'RE REFERENCING QUITE A FEW OF THE -- IT'S QUITE COMPLICATED IN THE END.
YES.
AND HERE IN THIS CLIP THAT WE'VE GOT FROM YOU GUYS IS YOU PLAYING KEN AND BASICALLY EXPLAINING TO YOUR TEAM THE IDEA OF CALCULATING WORTH.
THAT'S OUR TARGET FROM THE DOJ.
IF WE DON'T HIT THAT NUMBER, THE PLAN WON'T WORK.
ANY FEWER COMPLAINTS COME ABOARD, THE LAWSUITS THAT RESULT COULD CRATER THE ECONOMY, SO WE'RE TOLD.
NO PRESSURE, PEOPLE.
FOR EVERY CLAIMANT, WE'LL NEED TO CALCULATE A DOLLAR VALUE FOR THE HUMAN LOSS, WHETHER IT'S LOSS OF LIMB OR LOSS OF LIFE.
MOST OF THE PEOPLE WHO DIED THAT DAY FOR PROVIDERS FOR THEIR FAMILIES.
WE CAN'T BRING THEM BACK, BUT WE CAN HELP THEIR LOVED ONES PAY THEIR BILLS.
YOU PEOPLE UNDERSTAND WE'RE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO HAGGLE EVERY CASE SUBJECTIVELY.
THAT'S WHERE THE MATH COMES IN.
SO, WE'RE GOING TO NEED A RUBRIC.
THESE ARE THE LATEST ACTUARIAL TABLES FROM THE TOP CASUALTY AND LIFE INSURANCE COMPANIES.
WE'LL USE THESE NUMBERS AS A BASIS.
YOU GUYS STUDY UP ON THESE AND HELP COME UP WITH A PROPOSAL.
KEN FINEBERG, IS IT HARD 20 YEARS LATER OR EVEN AT THE TIME TO SEE THAT AND TO KNOW THAT YOU HAD TO PUT A DOLLAR VALUE AND ALSO HOW YOU HAD PUSHBACK AT THE BEGINNING AND ACTUALLY RIGHT TO THE VERY END.
YOU DIDN'T GET YOUR 80% -- ACTUALLY IT WAS HIGHER -- TARGET.
WAS THE PUSHBACK FROM PEOPLE DIFFICULT FOR YOU TO TAKE?
YEAH, VERY DIFFICULT.
FIRST OF ALL, JUDGES AND JURIES AROUND OUR COUNTRY DO THIS EVERY DAY.
IN EVERY VILLAGE, HAMLET, TOWN, CITY, THEY CALCULATE DOLLARS WHEN THERE'S AN INJURY, AN AUTOMOBILE ACCIDENT, ET CETERA.
WHAT MADE THIS SO DIFFICULT, AS PORTRAYED ON THE MOVIE, FIRST A COLLECTIVE GROUP -- YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT 5,000 PEOPLE WHO WERE EITHER KILLED OR PHYSICALLY INJURED IN THE ATTACKS.
AND THEY'RE ALL, AS A GROUP, COMING AT YOU AT ONCE.
THE SECOND PROBLEM ALREADY DISCUSSED, THE PROGRAM WAS ESTABLISHED BY CONGRESS DAYS AFTER THE ATTACKS.
THERE WAS NO TIME TO LET EMOTION SORT OF SIMMER DOWN A LITTLE BIT.
SO, MY EFFORT TO DEAL WITH NUMBERS, AS MICHAEL DEMONSTRATES IN THE SCREENPLAY AND IN THE MOVIE, WAS A PERFECTLY REASONABLE PRECEDENT FOR DOING THIS.
BUT WE UNDERESTIMATED THE DEGREE OF RAW OUTRAGE, ANGER, FRUSTRATION, DISAPPOINTMENT, HORROR.
AND FORTUNATELY OVER THE COURSE OF 33 MONTHS, WE MANAGED TO CONVINCE JUST ABOUT EVERYBODY TO COME INTO THE FUND, TAKE THE FUNDS, DON'T GO TO COURT.
AND WE RESOLVED THE PROBLEM THE WAY CONGRESS REALLY WANTED IT TO BE RESOLVED.
SO, LET ME ASK YOU, MAX, THEN BECAUSE STANLEY TUCCI PLAYS THE GREAT CENTRAL CHARACTER WHO'S AGAINST THIS, CHARLES WOLF.
AND HERE'S A CLIP OF HIM, AND WE'LL JUST PLAY IT AND I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT FORMULATING HIM AS A CHARACTER IN THE FILM.
HEY.
I WANT TO THANK YOU FOR YOUR HELP BACK THERE.
OH.
I'VE GOT THE TELL YOU I WAS --
THERE'S A WEBSITE AT THE BOTTOM DOWN THERE.
LITTLE WORRIED WHEN YOU STARTED UP.
I'M GLAD YOU DID.
WELL, I BELIEVE IN CIVILITY, MR. FINEBERG.
CHARLES WOLF.
AND YOU'LL BE SEEING A LOT OF ME.
OH, GOOD TO KNOW.
AND IT'S KEN.
I THINK YOU'LL FIND I'M ONE OF YOUR HARSHEST CRITICS.
OH, I'M SORRY TO HEAR THAT.
WELL, MY WIFE DIED THAT DAY.
AND EVERYTHING ABOUT THIS FORMULA OFFENDS ME.
SO, MAX, I FIND HIM REALLY FASCINATING.
YOU KNOW, HE'S NOT A FLAME THROWER, BUT HE'S ABSOLUTELY CENTRAL TO THE SUCCESS OF ALL OF THIS.
JUST TALK TO ME ABOUT THE CHARLES WOLF CHARACTER AND HOW IT BUILT TOWARDS THE CRESCENDO.
HE KIND OF MADE KEN'S CASE FOR HIM.
YEAH, I THINK, YOU KNOW, CHARLES IS A FASCINATING, REALLY INSPIRING GUY.
HE LOST HIS WIFE IN 9/11, AND HE WAS OFFENDED BY THE EXISTENCE OF THE FUND BECAUSE IT MANDATED THAT THE -- THAT PEOPLE BE COMPENSATED FOR THE -- FOR THEIR LOVED ONES DIFFERENTLY, THAT THERE WASN'T SOME LUMP SUM.
NOW, OF COURSE THAT MADE SENSE FROM A PRAGMATIC STANDPOINT IN ORDER TO PREVENT PEOPLE FROM SUING.
BUT IT WAS, YOU KNOW, YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT YOUR LOVED ONES.
AND I THINK WHAT'S FASCINATING ABOUT HIM AS A FOIL FOR KENDRA MATICALLY IN THE FILM AND IN REAL LIFE IS THAT THEY'RE BOTH COMING FROM THE RIGHT PLACE.
THEY'RE BOTH TRYING TO DO THE RIGHT THING.
AND THERE ARE NO VILLAINS IN THIS STORY.
THE VILLAINS IN THIS STORY ARE THE PEOPLE WHO STARTED AND CAUSED THE TRAGEDY.
AT THIS POINT, FROM THAT POINT ON, KEN WAS TRYING TO DO HIS CIVIC DUTY AND EXECUTE THIS LAW TO THE BEST OF HIS ABILITIES, TO HELP DO HIS PART TO COMPENSATE THESE FAMILIES.
AND CHARLES WAS TRYING TO ADVOCATE FOR HIS WIFE'S MEMORY AND FOR COLLECTIVELY EVERYBODY WHO WAS HARMED IN 9/11 AND WANTED THEIR GOVERNMENT TO RECOGNIZE THEIR LOVED ONES IN A WAY THAT WAS BEYOND DOLLARS AND CENTS.
AND I -- I THINK PUTTING THOSE TWO CHARACTERS AGAINST ONE ANOTHER AND AS IT HAPPENED IN REAL LIFE I THINK IS MESSY AND DIFFICULT BECAUSE THEY'RE BOTH RIGHT.
AND THERE IS NO EASY ANSWER.
MICHAEL, I JUST WANT TO EXPAND A LITTLE BIT ON YOUR ILLUSTRIOUS CAREER BECAUSE EVERYBODY KNOWS YOU FROM SUCH A HUGE PAN MRI OF FILMS, NOT LEAST OF WHICH, 'THE BATMAN.'
YOU EVEN PLAYED THE GREAT CNN PRODUCER DURING THE FIRST GULF WAR IN 'LIVE FROM BAGHDAD,' OUR PRODUCER.
BUT 'THE BATMAN' BACK 30 YEARS AGO.
THEN YOU HAD A HIATUS.
THEN YOU CAME BACK 'BIRDMAN.'
THAT WAS SORT OF A SATIRE OF BATMAN.
NOW YOU'RE BACK DOING 'THE FLASH.'
TELL ME ABOUT THAT ATTRACTION FOR YOU AND WHY YOU'VE GONE BACK TO IT.
YOU KNOW, I THINK I CAUGHT UP WITH IT CULTURALLY.
IT TRANSCENDED A BIG FUN, COLORFUL ACTION MOVIE IN ALL THESE YEARS.
IT'S BECOME JUST ON A CORPORATE LEVEL ALONE, JUST IT'S MASSIVE.
NOT JUST THE BATMAN FRANCHISE OR ALL THE MARVEL MOVIES, THE DC COMICS MOVIES.
THAT WHOLE WORLD IS SO HUGE.
AND I THOUGHT, WELL, FIRST OF ALL, I THINK I HAD ANOTHER PERSPECTIVE ON IT.
AND I THOUGHT TO CIRCLE BACK.
OVER THE YEARS, I KIND OF THOUGHT, I BET YOU I COULD SWING BACK AROUND AND STILL DO THAT IN THE BACK OF MY HEAD.
I WANTED TO SEE IF I COULD PULL THAT OFF.
IT WAS GREAT FUN TO DO, REALLY, REALLY.
THE FIRST LITTLE FILM I EVER DID WAS A DOCUMENTARY REALLY ABOUT A WOMAN NAMED FERN FIELD.
AND IT WAS JUST A LITTLE VERY SHORT FILM.
I THINK SHE WON A LITTLE AWARD FOR IT.
IT WAS ABOUT SERVICING HANDICAP PEOPLE, RAMPS AND EVERYTHING.
AND I WAS -- MY MOM WAS ESSENTIALLY A HANDICAP PERSON BECAUSE SHE HAD A STROKE WHEN I WAS 18 AND FOR MOST OF HER LIFE SHE WAS A VICTIM OF A STROKE AND SHE LOST USE OF HER RIGHT SIDE AND EVERYTHING.
SO, THAT WAS REALLY THE FIRST THING I EVER DID.
BUT I WAS ALWAYS KIND OF AWARE OF THINGS LIKE THAT.
I COME FROM A GENERATION OF PEOPLE WHO ARE SOMEWHAT SOCIALLY CONSCIOUS.
I'M NOT REALLY A CRUSADER.
THESE KIND OF MOVIES ARE IMPORTANT.
THE OTHER THING I'LL SAY ABOUT THIS MOVIE IS I DID IT.
I HAD TO SAY THE WORDS.
I HAD TO UNDERSTAND.
I STILL DON'T TOTALLY UNDERSTAND THE CONVERSATION FUND.
IT'S SO COMPLEX.
AND IN A MOVIE LIKE THIS, TO MAKE A GOOD VERSION, IT'S REALLY HARD TO MAKE GOOD VERSIONS.
BUT IN LIFE A LOT OF THOSE PEOPLE CAN TELL YOU, THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE STILL ARE NOT -- YOU CAN'T -- THERE'S NO WAY TO MAKE EVERYONE HAPPY.
THERE JUST IS NO WAY.
IT'S JUST IMPOSSIBLE.
AND WHEN PEOPLE SEE THIS FILM -- SO FAR WE'RE GETTING VERY GOOD NOTICES.
BUT THERE WILL BE PEOPLE WHO -- AND I KNEW IT WHEN WE STARTED MAKING IT BECAUSE, AS MAX SAID, THERE'S NO VILLAIN HERE.
THERE'S NO CLEAR VILLAIN.
SO, THERE ARE GOING TO BE PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT HAPPY WITH THIS, I'M SURE.
AND I TOTALLY UNDERSTAND IT.
BUT, YOU KNOW, I BELIEVE YOU'VE GOT TO PUT THESE THINGS OUT IN THE WORLD.
YOU WANT TO LEAVE THE WORLD GOING, I NEVER REALLY DID MUCH.
THAT'S KIND OF WHAT I THOUGHT.
AND 'THE FLASH' IS FUN.
I'M SORRY I WENT OFF.
HELLO TO ROBERT BY THE WAY.
NO, NO, IT'S OKAY.
I'LL TELL HIM.
I DO WANT TO PICK UP ON SOMETHING YOU JUST SAID AND KEN MENTIONED IT, THE WAY YOU PERFORMED THIS CHARACTER.
A PROMINENT FILM PRODUCER SAID TO ME ABOUT YOU, MICHAEL KEATON, THAT YOUR FACIAL MANAGEMENT IS MASTERFUL, THAT YOU DO THIS STUFF IN SOME OF THESE FILMS THAT IN REAL LIFE YOU MIGHT NOT PERCEIVE IF YOU'RE SHOOTING.
BUT IT TURNS OUT ON THE SCREEN AMAZINGLY AND IT COMPLETELY SHIFTS THE MOOD, THE SENTIMENT.
AND I SAW THAT HAPPENING IN THIS FILM.
AND I JUST WONDER IS THAT A THING WITH YOU?
I SUPPOSE SO.
I DON'T -- I'VE HEARD IT BEFORE.
I DON'T KNOW.
NOW I DON'T -- I GUESS IT IS.
I DON'T -- I DON'T THINK ABOUT IT.
NOW I'M GOING TO THINK ABOUT IT.
THANKS A LOT.
[ LAUGHTER ]
WELL, LISTEN, REALLY GREAT FILM.
GO AHEAD.
I DON'T THINK THERE'S ANYBODY I CAN THINK OF THAT COULD HAVE PORTRAYED WHAT I CONFRONTED DURING THE ACTUAL ADMINISTRATION OF THE 9/11 FUND BETTER THAN MICHAEL KEATON.
AND I -- AS I SAID EARLIER, I WAS VERY NERVOUS ABOUT THIS, BUT HE DID IT.
HE DID IT.
AND HE'S AN HONORARY MEMBER OF MY FAMILY.
I'LL TELL YOU THAT.
HIGH PRAISE INDEED.
KENNETH FINEBERG, MAX BOOR STEEN, MICHAEL KEATON.
'WORTH' RELEASES ON NETFLIX TODAY.
> WE TURN NOW TO A SMALL NEIGHBORHOOD AT NEW ORLEANS AND A FOOTBALL PROGRAM THAT AIMS TO DO MUCH MORE THAN JUST WIN CHAMPIONSHIPS.
'WASHINGTON POST' SPORTS JOURNALIST KEN BAB FOLLOWS A HIGH SCHOOL FOOTBALL SEASON IN HIS NEW BOOK 'ACROSS THE RIVER.'
IN A STATE THAT HAS THE HIGHEST RATE OF HOMICIDES PER 100,000 BACK IN 2019.
BAB'S BOOK IS A STARK LOOK AT THE FIGHT TO KEEP YOUNG STUDENTS OUT OF THE LINE OF FIRE.
AND NOW GEORGE CLOONEY HAS SNAPPED UP THE FILM RIGHTS.
BAB SPOKE TO WALTER ISAACSON, A FORMER FOOTBALL COACH AT THE HIGH SCHOOL.
THANK YOU.
AND KENT BAB AND COACH NICK FOSTER, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.
THANK YOU.
THANK YOU FOR HAVING US ON.
YOU HAVE THIS WONDERFUL BOOK CALLED 'ACROSS THE RIVER.'
IT'S ABOUT EDNA CARR HIGH SCHOOL IN A TROUBLED PART OF NEW ORLEANS.
IT'S ABOUT KIDS SURROUNDED BY GUN VIOLENCE AND AN AMAZING COACH NAMED BRICE BROW WHO HELPS RESCUE SOME OF THEM.
TELL ME THE ARC OF THE STORY AND WHY YOU BELIEVE IT'S AN AMERICAN STORY, KENT.
I BELIEVE THAT IN MOST CITIES IN THE COUNTRY, THERE ARE PLACES LIKE ALGIERS WHERE PEOPLE WHO LOOK LIKE ME ARE JUST PERFECTLY CONTENT TO NOT THINK ABOUT IT, NOT PAY TOO MUCH ATTENTION, JUST SORT OF GO ALONG YOUR BUSINESS AND STROLL DOWN THE FRENCH QUARTER AND PRETEND LIKE THAT'S NOT REAL.
AND THERE'S A SORT OF INCREDIBLE DRAMA THAT'S PLAYING OUT.
THESE ARE REAL LIVES.
AND REAL VULNERABLE LIVES AS WELL.
WHEN THEY COME TO THESE COACHES, COACH FOSTER AND COACH BROWN, TO LOOK FOR GUIDANCE, TO LOOK FOR MENTORSHIP, SOMETIMES FOR FOOD.
AND FOOTBALL IS JUST SOMETHING, I THINK, THAT DRAWS THEM TO THE FOOTBALL OFFICE.
AND THEN FROM THERE THEY START RETRAINING THEM FOR REAL LIFE.
NICK FOSTER, YOU WERE PART OF THAT EDNA CARR HIGH SCHOOL FOOTBALL PROGRAM, AND YOU REALLY HAD TWO PASSING LINES.
IN SOME WAYS YOU TESTED BOTH OF THOSE PATHS.
TELL ME HOW THIS PROGRAM AND YOUR LIFE WAS CHANGED.
I WENT TO CARR BUT ALSO I COACHED AT CARR.
BUT THAT COACH, OUR SCHOOL FAMILY IS JUST A BIG PART OF WHO WE ARE.
YOU ALWAYS HAVE TWO CHOICES.
YOU GO LEFT OR YOU GO RIGHT.
YOU KNOW THE LEFT CHOICE IS NOT THE BEST DECISION BUT WHEN YOU GO RIGHT, IT IS A BLESSING.
WE TEACH THE BOYS ALL THE TIME, IT'S A VERY GOOD CITY.
YOU CAN BE A PART OF THAT OR YOU CAN CHANGE IT OR YOU CAN BE PART OF SOMETHING DIFFERENT.
THAT'S WHAT WE OFFER THEM WITH CITY.
I WENT THROUGH A LOT OF ADVERSARY EARLY IN MY CAREER.
WITH MY MOTHER PASSING, THAT WAS TOUGH, BUT I RELIED ON MY CARR FAMILY.
WE WON A STATE CHAMPIONSHIP IN 2019 AND MY DAD PASSED AWAY THAT NIGHT.
THE ONLY THING THAT GOT ME THROUGH THAT NIGHT WAS MY CARR FAMILY.
IT'S A HEAD COACH NOW.
IT'S AN AMAZING FEELING.
IT'S BIGGER THAN JUST FOOTBALL AND OUR SUCCESS ON THE FIELD.
IT'S ABOUT OUR SUCCESS OFF THE FIELD AND HELPING THESE YOUNG MEN GROW INTO BETTER CITIZENS.
AND KEN, WHEN YOU WERE SEEING THAT, WHEN YOU WERE COVERING THE EDNA CARR SCHOOL FOR THAT ONE SEASON, WHAT WAS THE MAGIC THAT THE COACH BROUGHT TO THIS?
I MEAN, IT'S ALMOST NOT EVEN MAGIC.
IT'S SOMETHING SO BASIC, AND THAT'S JUST HONESTY.
IF A KID COMES TO THE COACHES WITH A CRISIS, NO MATTER THE HOUR, NO MATTER THE CRISIS, THEY HELP DEAL WITH IT.
THE WAY THAT I PUT IT IS IT'S THE RAREST KIND OF MENTORSHIP.
IT'S CONSISTENT.
AND IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT TIME OF DAY.
IT DOESN'T MATTER IF IT'S 3:00 IN THE MORNING, THESE COACHES FOR BETTER OR WORSE WILL ANSWER THAT PHONE.
THEY TEACH THESE KIDS TO KNOW HOW TO TRUST AND KNOW WHO TO TRUST, WHO TO COME TO IF YOU'RE OUT OF MONEY AND HUNGRY, WHO TO COME TO IF YOU NEED A RIDE ACROSS THE RIVER TO AN UNFAMILIAR NEIGHBORHOOD AND GET BACK HOME, NOT JUST WALKING AROUND IN A CITY WHERE BOATS ARE FLYING ALL THE TIME.
THE COACHES KNOW THE ANSWERS.
SOMETIMES THESE KIDS DON'T.
SO, THEY LEARN THAT THERE'S AN OFFICE FULL OF ADULTS WHO WON'T GIVE UP ON THEM.
IF THIS IS A COUNTRY, MAYBE EVEN A CITY THAT'S JUST COMPLETELY CONTENT TO WRITE OFF YOUNG PEOPLE AND YOUNG PEOPLE OF COLOR IN PARTICULAR, THERE'S ONE OFFICE IN NEW ORLEANS THAT THAT'S NOT THE CASE.
THEY CAN COME AT ANY TIME OF DAY, DOESN'T MATTER THE SITUATION, AND THEY WILL BE SUPPORTED AND GUIDED IS MENTORED.
YOU KNOW, PART OF THE STORY OF THIS BOOK IS A STORY OF GUN VIOLENCE.
NICK, WILL YOU TELL ME ABOUT THE GUN VIOLENCE AND HOW DIFFERENT IT IS TODAY THAN IT WAS WHEN YOU WERE GROWING UP?
YOU KNOW, WHEN WE HAD ALTERCATIONS, SOMETIMES IT MIGHT GET TO A PHYSICAL FISTFIGHT OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.
NEW ORLEANS HAS GOT TO THE POINT NOW WHERE IT HAS EVOLVED THAT THESE KIDS HAVE EASY ACCESS TO A GUN.
THEY DON'T EVEN KNOW HOW TO HANDLE ALTERCATION.
SO, CAN'T EXPLAIN IT.
THEY COME TO US WHEN THEY'RE IN ADVERSE SITUATIONS, AND WE TRY TO DETOUR THEM AWAY FROM USING A GUN, EVEN USING VIOLENCE.
WE TRY TO CHANGE THE CONFRONTATION OUT OF THEM, TEACH THEM HOW TO TALK THINGS OUT.
RIGHT NOW THE CITY OF NEW ORLEANS, THERE'S SO MUCH CRIME WITH ADOLESCENT KIDS WITH THE GUNS AND EVERYTHING, WE'RE JUST FINDING THAT FOOTBALL IS AN ESCAPE FOR THOSE KIDS.
IT'S NOT ONLY GUN VIOLENCE.
WE HAVE ROBBERIES.
JUST A LOT OF CARJACKINGS BY ADOLESCENT KIDS AND STUFF LIKE THAT.
IT'S SO EASY TO GET A GUN.
AND THEY DON'T KNOW HOW TO HANDLE IF THEY HAVE A DISAGREEMENT, THEY HAVE A CONFRONTATION.
THAT'S WHY WE TEACH OUR KIDS HOW TO HANDLE IT.
WE TEACH THESE KIDS HOW TO DEAL WITH THESE ADVERSE SITUATIONS.
WE TEACH THEM HOW TO WHEN THEY GET PULLED OVER BY A POLICE OFFICER OR HOW TO DEAL WITH THAT SITUATION.
WE TEACH THEM HOW TO GET IN A -- IF YOU'RE FRIEND IS IN A NEGATIVE BEEF SITUATION OR CONTROVERSY SITUATION, THAT'S NOT THE GUY YOU NEED TO BE HANGING WITH YOU.
YOU NEED TO BE FRIENDS WITH THE GUY WHO'S GOING TO SCHOOL, GOING TO PRACTICE WITH YOU EVERY DAY, YOUR TEAMMATE.
AND IF YOU SEE YOUR TEAMMATE DOING THIS, HOLD HIM ACCOUNTABLE AND LET HIM KNOW RIGHT FROM WRONG.
IT'S LIKE CANCER.
CANCER SPREADS.
YOU WANT TO SPREAD GOOD CANCER THROUGHOUT YOUR TEAMS AND YOUR COMMUNITIES.
ONCE WE TEACH KIDS IN THE COMMUNITIES WHAT'S RIGHT AND WRONG AND HOLD THEM ACCOUNTABLE, WE CAN FIND A SOLUTION TO IT.
RIGHT NOW HAVING SO MUCH ACCESS TO GUNS AND DON'T KNOW HOW TO USE A GUN AND CONFRONTATION, IT'S GOING TO BE THEM KILLING EACH OTHER.
TELL ME THE STORY OF TONKA GEORGE.
TONKA IS A YOUNG MAN WHO DID EVERYTHING RIGHT.
IN 2010 HE LED CARR TO THE STATE CHAMPIONSHIP GAME.
HE'S THE SKIN AND GONES HUNTER AND WIDE RECEIVER WHO GOT THRUST INTO BEING A QUARTERBACK BECAUSE HE WAS WILLING TO SACRIFICE HIMSELF.
AND HE WAS ALMOST A SUPERNATURAL LEADER WHO COULD INSPIRE SOMEBODY AND CHEW OUT SOMEBODY ELSE.
JUST WHATEVER IT TOOK.
SO, THEY GOT IN THE STATE CHAMPIONSHIP IN 2010 ON TONKA'S SKINNY SHOULDERS.
HE GOT A COLLEGE SCHOLARSHIP.
HE WAS NOT INVOLVED IN CRIME OR DRUGS OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT.
HE MADE A MISTAKE.
THAT MISTAKE WAS COMING HOME TO SEE HIS MOMS.
HE CAME HOME TO NEW ORLEANS AND WHILE HE HAD BEEN GONE GETTING EDUCATION, SOME OF HIS FRIENDS BACK HOME GOT MIXED UP IN SOMETHING DANGEROUS.
HIS SECOND MISTAKE WAS TAKING A WALK IN HIS NEIGHBORHOOD ON THE WEST BANK ON A WARM JUNE NIGHT FIVE YEARS AGO AND SOMEBODY IN A CAR SAW HIM, FOLLOWED HIM AND GOT OUT AND SHOT AND KILLED HIM.
AND IT'S A HEARTBREAKING STORY, BUT AS MUCH AS THAT, IT'S ALSO MADDENING BECAUSE NOBODY KNOWS WHY HE GOT KILLED.
NOBODY KNOWS WHO DID IT.
FIVE YEARS LATER, HIS MURDER, LIKE SO MANY IN NEW ORLEANS, REMAINS UNSOLVED.
THIS IS A CITY THAT RECENTLY HAS ONLY SOLVED A THIRD OF ITS MURDERS, WHICH IS EXCRUCIATINGLY LOW.
AND, YOU KNOW, TONKA WAS SUPPOSED TO BE SOMEBODY THAT EVERYBODY LOOKED UP TO, SOMEBODY THAT PEOPLE AT CARR LONGED TO BE LIKE.
AND IT WOUND UP -- HE WOUND UP BEING SORT OF THE OPPOSITE OF THAT.
HE'S SOMEBODY THAT HE CAN'T BE LIKE THIS EVEN THOUGH HE DID EVERYTHING RIGHT.
I THINK HE WAS THE PERSON THAT CHANGED THE CARR PROGRAM FOREVER BECAUSE BRICE WAS AT THE CRIME SCENE.
HE WAS IN THIS SEA OF CHAOS.
AND I BELIEVE IT WAS AT THAT MOMENT THAT BRICE BROWN DECIDED MY PROGRAM IS NOT JUST ABOUT FOOTBALL ANYMORE.
HE'S GOT TWO RELENTLESS DUAL MISSIONS, ONE, YES, IS TO WIN FOOTBALL GAMES.
THE OTHER IS TO KEEP HIS KIDS, PEOPLE THESE COACHES CARE ABOUT AND LOVE, TEACH THEM HOW TO SURVIVE AND LOVE HIM NO MATTER WHAT.
HE WAS ONE OF THOSE KIDS THAT EVERYBODY FOLLOWED AND EVERYBODY LOOKED UP TO.
HE WAS SOMETHING TO LOOK UP TO.
HE STILL HAS THE STATE CHAMPIONSHIP FOR THE MOST YARDS IN ONE GAME.
AND HE WAS SKIN AND BONES LIKE KEN MENTIONED, BUT JUST A SPECIAL, BLESSED TALENT.
AND JUST GUILTY BY ASSOCIATION.
YOU KNOW, HIS MURDER STILL IS A MYSTERY.
AND YOU KNOW, IT'S SAD.
HIS NUMBER 5 IS A SPECIAL NUMBER IN CARR'S PROGRAM AND OUR FAMILY.
AND THE KIDS REALLY HONOR THAT NUMBER.
IF THEY WEAR IT, THEY MAKE SURE THEY TRY TO LIVE UP TO IT.
BUT IT'S A SAD STORY.
BRICE KEEPS HIS JERSEY OR A PICTURE -- A SHIRT OF TONKA IN HIS OFFICE.
AND JUST WALKING IN THERE EVERY TIME AND JUST REMINDING US IT'S BIGGER THAN FOOTBALL.
IT'S BIGGER THAN JUST WINNING.
WE'VE GOT TO REALLY SAVE LIVES.
WE'VE REALLY GOT TO HELP THESE KIDS BECAUSE THE GUN VIOLENCE AND EVERYTHING THEY'RE GOING THROUGH IS LIKE HE'S NOT EVEN INVOLVED IN THAT TYPE OF LIFE.
JUST BEING GUILTY BY ASSOCIATION, BY YOUR NEXT DOOR NEIGHBOR OR A GUY YOU GREW UP WITH, YOU COULD EASILY LOSE YOUR LIFE.
THIS PROGRAM AT EDNA CARR HIGH SCHOOL, AND I HOPE WHAT NICK FOSTER IS NOW DOING AT ST.
AGUSTIN HIGH SCHOOL IS TEACHING NOT ONLY THE SKILLS OF FOOTBALL BUT THE SKILLS OF LIFE.
IT'S HELPING RESCUE SOME FROM GOING DOWN THE WRONG PATH.
EXPLAIN THAT.
BASED ON MY OBSERVATION, FOOTBALL IS THE THING THAT GETS THESE KIDS THROUGH THE DOOR.
THEY WANT TO PLAY.
THEY WANT TO GET ON THE FIELD.
WHO MAKES THE DECISION BUT THE COACHES?
IT'S NOT ALWAYS HOW WELL THEY PERFORM ON THE FIELD, HOW WELL THEY CATCH PASSES, HOW WELL THEY BLOCK DEFENDERS.
IT'S ABOUT CHARACTER.
IT'S ABOUT COMMUNICATION.
IT'S ABOUT HOW YOU TALK TO YOUR FELLOW PERSON.
WHAT THESE GUYS DO IS THEY SIMULATE ALMOST AS AN EXERCISE HOW TO DEAL WITH THESE CONFRONTATIONS.
IT'S UNCOMFORTABLE.
I'VE WITNESSED PLENTY OF THEM SOMETIMES LATE AT NIGHT -- HE'S LAUGHING, BUT IT'S UNCOMFORTABLE.
WHY ARE YOU LAUGHING, COACH?
HE'S REFERRING TO SOMETHING -- IF YOU READ THE BOOK, WE SIMULATE PRESSURE SITUATIONS.
SO, IT TEACHES THEM HOW TO THINK EVEN ON THE FIELD.
EVERYBODY THINKS BECAUSE WE WON A COUPLE OF STATE CHAMPIONSHIPS, WE COMES FROM Xs AND Os IN THE PLAYS.
IT COMES FROM THE BONDING AND THE BROTHERHOOD.
WHEN THEY'RE ON THE FIELD OR IN THE COMMUNITY TOGETHER, THEY KNOW HOW TO HANDLE IT.
KENT, TELL ME THE STORY OF JOE THOMAS.
JOE IS SOMEBODY THAT BEFORE I STARTED REPORTING THIS, I DON'T THINK I WOULD HAVE BELIEVED HE WAS REAL.
HE'S A SENIOR LINEBACKER WHEN THE BOOK BEGINS, JUST LIKE THE GLORIOUS RUN STOPPER.
NOT A GUY WHO MAKES SACKS OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT.
BUT HE QUITE LITERALLY GREW UP ON THE STREETS OF NEW ORLEANS.
HIS MOM WAS ON THE WRONG SIDE OF THE LAW, HAD BEEN SINCE SHE WAS A TEENAGER.
AND JOE WAS HER LOOKOUT.
HE USED TO STAY UP UNTIL 3:00 IN THE MORNING WITH A LITTLE GUN IN HIS HAND MAKING SURE NOBODY CAME FOR HIS MOM.
SO, HE GREW UP AS A PROTECTOR.
AND AS HE GREW, IT WAS ALMOST LIKE THERE WERE TWO PEOPLE IN THE WORLD, JOE AND HIS MOM.
HE DIDN'T KNOW HOW TO COMMUNICATE.
HE CERTAINLY DIDN'T KNOW HOW TO COMMUNICATE WITH ADULTS WITHOUT BEING CONFRONTATIONAL.
AND HE HAD JUST NEVER BEEN HELD ACCOUNTABLE IN HIS LIFE.
HE HAD NEVER BEEN HELD TO A SCHEDULE IN HIS LIFE.
SO, HE'S SOMEBODY THAT HAS COMPLETELY CHANGED HOW I LOOK AT COMMUNITIES LIKE THIS BECAUSE IT'S JUST TOO EASY TO THINK THAT IT CAN'T BE THAT BAD, THAT SOMEBODY LIKE JOE IS MADE UP.
IT'S NOT.
THERE'S A LOT OF JOE'S OUT THERE, NOT THAT MANY COACH BROWN'S AND COACH FOSTER'S.
AND THE FACT THAT JOE LEARNED THESE TRICK OF SURVIVAL THAT SEEM UNNECESSARY IN THE UNITED STATES.
I MEAN, IF YOU WALK TO McDONALD'S TO GET SOME DINNER, HE NEVER -- HE NEVER CAME BACK THE WAY HE WENT JUST IN CASE SOMEBODY WAS FOLLOWING HIM AND TRYING TO HUNT HIM DOWN AND KILL HIM.
HE HAD TO HIDE IN ABANDONED HOUSES BECAUSE WHETHER IT WAS REAL OR IMAGINED, HE BELIEVED SOMEBODY MIGHT BE CHASING HIM AT ALL TIMES.
HE FELT LIKE HE HAD TO PROTECT HIMSELF.
WHEN THE BOOK BEGINS, HIS MOM IS IN PRISON.
JOE IS LIVING BY HIMSELF AS AN 18-YEAR-OLD YOUNG MAN.
HIS SENIOR YEAR IS GETTING READY TO START, AND HE'S GOT AN EVICTION NOTICE POSTED TO HIS FRONT DOOR.
HE HAS NO IDEA HOW TO DEAL WITH THIS.
HOW DO YOU DEAL WITH THIS WHEN YOU'RE 18.
IT'S OVER $80.
HE'S ABOUT TO BE HOMELESS OVER $80.
IF NOT FOR THE CARR PROGRAM, I THINK HE WOULD HAVE MADE A VERY DIFFERENT DECISION.
BECAUSE HE PLAYED FOR EDNA CARR HIGH AND BECAUSE HE HAD THESE COACHES, HE KNEW WHAT TO GO TO AND THEY HELPED HIM GET OUT OF A LIFE CHANGING AND POSSIBLY LIFE ENDING JAM.
WHEN KATRINA HIT, EDNA CARR WAS ON THE WEST BANK.
IT DIDN'T FLOOD.
AND EDNA CARR HIGH SCHOOL BECAME A PLACE WHERE PEOPLE FROM ALL OVER THE CITY WHEN PEOPLE CAME BACK HAD TO GO.
SO, YOU HAD A LOT OF PEOPLE FROM DIFFERENT NEIGHBORHOODS GOING TO EDNA CARR.
COACH NICK, TELL ME HOW THAT AFFECTED THINGS.
WELL, BEFORE KATRINA, EDNA CARR WAS A MAGNET SCHOOL.
SO, WE HAD TO TAKE A TEST TO GET IN CARR.
MOST PEOPLE FROM ALGIERS WENT TO CARR.
IT WAS A TIGHT KNIT COMMUNITY, VERY SMALL.
IT WAS A 3A SCHOOL.
AND AFTER KATRINA, A LOT OF THE SCHOOLS ON THIS SIDE OF THE RIVER, ON THE EAST BANK, REALLY WAS CLOSED DOWN BECAUSE THEY WAS UNDER WATER.
WELL, CARR WAS THE ONES THAT SURVIVED THE STORM.
SO, KIDS STARTED COMING FROM THE OTHER SIDE OF THE RIVER.
WE JUST HAD TO GET KIDS IN SCHOOL.
AT FIRST WE DIDN'T THINK IT WAS A GOOD THING BUT IT ACTUALLY EXPANDED OUR FAMILY AND MADE IT AMAZING.
WE WAS GETTING A DIFFERENT TYPE OF ATHLETE IN CARR, A DIFFERENT TYPE OF KID, MORE KIDS WITH ADVERSE SITUATIONS, MORE KIDS THAT WANTED MORE.
THEY WANTED ALGIERS, SO TO USE CARR AS A CHANNEL TO GET OUT.
SO, TO USE FOOTBALL AND EDUCATION.
CARR WAS ABLE TO OFFER THEM THAT.
KENT?
I MEAN I THINK IT MADE PEOPLE FROM ALL OVER A CITY AT LEAST FROM MY OBSERVATION IS EXTRAORDINARILY TERRITORIAL.
THIS IS A PLACE WHERE PEOPLE GROW UP IF ON A CERTAIN BLOCK IN A CERTAIN NEIGHBORHOOD AND THEY DON'T ALWAYS LEAVE THAT BLOCK, AND THEY CERTAINLY DON'T TRUST SOMEBODY THAT DOESN'T LIVE ON THAT BLOCK.
WHAT KATRINA DID IS IT UPROOTED EVERYBODY INCLUDING DECISIONS FROM SHORT SIDED CITY OFFICIALS.
IT UPROOTED EVERYBODY AND FORCED EVERYBODY INTO UNFAMILIAR NEIGHBORHOODS.
SO, WHAT THAT DID WAS RAISE TENSIONS.
AND IN THE CASE OF CARR, IT MADE SO MANY PEOPLE HAVE TO FILTER INTO THIS ONE PLACE AND NOT JUST HAVE TO COEXIST WITH EACH BUT LINE UP BESIDE EACH OTHER AND PLAY WITH EACH OTHER AND LEARN HOW TO -- LEARN HOW TO -- AND LEARN HOW TO PURSUE OPPORTUNITIES AND VICTORIES TOGETHER.
YOU KNOW, YOU HAD TO LEARN HOW TO TRUST.
YOU HAD TO LEARN HOW TO RELY ON THESE PEOPLE THAT DIDN'T SOUND LIKE YOU OR SUPPOSEDLY LOOK LIKE YOU.
THEY WEREN'T FROM WHERE YOU'RE FROM, BUT SUDDENLY YOU'RE ON THE SAME TEAM.
COACH NICK FOSTER, KENT BAB, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING THE SHOW.
THANK YOU.
THANK YOU.
THANK YOU.
APPRECIATE IT.
> AND FINALLY TONIGHT, SINCE THE FRANTIC EVACUATION BEGAN IN KABUL, OVER 23,000 AFGHANS HAVE BEEN FLOWN TO THE UNITED STATES.
AND TENS OF THOUSANDS MORE ARE TRYING TO FLEE TALIBAN RULE, CROSSING BORDERS OFTEN ON FOOT.
WESTERN COUNTRIES HAVE COMMITTED TO TAKING IN SOME, BUT IS IT ENOUGH AND HOW WILL THEY BE WELCOMED?
SYRIAN FILMMAKER AND ACTIVIST UNDERSTANDS THE PAIN OF BEING UPROOTED.
HE SOUGHT ASYLUM HERE IN THE UK IN 2015.
AT THE PEAK OF THE PANDEMIC, HE WORKED ON THE FRONTLINES OF COVID WAR.
NOW HE'S OUT WITH A NEW MEMOIR, 'HOPE NOT FEAR.'
HASAN, WELCOME BACK TO THIS PROGRAM WHERE WE'VE CHRONICLED PART OF YOUR JOURNEY SINCE YOU FLED THAT LAST BIG WAR, SYRIA.
LET ME JUST ASK YOU WHAT YOU THINK WHEN YOU SEE YOUR AFGHAN BROTHERS AND SISTERS TRYING TO DO THE SAME THING AND HAVING SUCH A HARD TIME NOW GETTING OUT.
THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME,. CERTAINLY AFGHAN REFUGEES, BEFORE AFGHANISTAN, WE HAVE VENEZUELA, SYRIA AND ROHINGYA REFUGEES.
AND IT'S -- THE REFUGEE POPULATION KEEPS ON GROWING AND GROWING.
IT WAS A MAN MADE CRISIS AND CLIMATE CHANGE.
SO, JUST SEEING THESE IMAGES OF PEOPLE WHO ARE FLEEING MAKES ME VERY -- MAKES ME VERY SAD BECAUSE I'VE BEEN IN THIS PLACE BEFORE.
I'VE READ A LOT OF INTERVIEWS THAT PEOPLE HAVE INTERVIEWED AFGHANS WHO MADE IT OUT OF AFGHANISTAN, AND THE ONE THING THAT SAID IN COMMON WAS THAT WE ARE VERY LUCKY.
AND THAT IS VERY -- THAT IS VERY TRUE BECAUSE PEOPLE WHO MAKE IT ARE VERY LUCKY.
BUT I FEEL BAD FOR THE ONES WHO ARE LEFT BEHIND BECAUSE ONLY THE TINY MAJORITY OF PEOPLE WHO MADE IT OUT OF AFGHANISTAN.
THE REST ARE STILL BEHIND.
WELL, LET ME ASK YOU THEN BECAUSE THE BRITISH GOVERNMENT HAS SAID IT'S GOING TO ACCEPT SOME 20,000 OVER A PERIOD OF YEARS.
THE AMERICAN GOVERNMENT BASICALLY CALLED THIS THE BIGGEST HUMANITARIAN AIR LIFT IN HISTORY.
AND NOW THERE ARE REPORTS THERE WAS ONLY A PRETTY SMALL FRACTION OF AFGHANS WHO WERE AIR LIFTED AND OBVIOUSLY THE REST WERE AMERICANS.
GIVEN THAT SOME OF THESE SO-CALLED RED CARPETS ARE BASED ON WHAT GOVERNMENTS DID FOR SYRIAN REFUGEES OF WHICH YOU WERE ONE, WHAT HOPE DO YOU HAVE FOR ALL THE PROMISES THAT WELL-MEANING GOVERNMENTS ARE TRYING TO COVER THEMSELVES IN NOW TO THE CIVILIANS THEY'VE LEFT BEHIND?
I'LL GIVE YOU THE BRITISH GOVERNMENT AS AN EXAMPLE.
THEY'RE COMMITTED TO RESETTLE 20,000 AFGHANS, WHICH IS A VERY SMALL NUMBER COMPARED TO THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO ARE FLEEING AFGHANISTAN.
THE MAJORITY OF REFUGEES STAY IN THE REGION, SO THE MAJORITY HAVE COUNTRIES AROUND AFGHANISTAN.
AND QUITE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE WORKED WITH THE BRITISH ARMY AND THE AMERICAN ARMY IN AFGHANISTAN ARE STILL LEFT BEHIND UNDER THE TALIBAN RULE.
SO, I THINK WESTERN GOVERNMENTS SHOULD DO MORE.
THEY SHOULD STEP UP.
AND RESETTLEMENT SHOULD BE QUICKER.
IN BRITAIN RIGHT NOW THERE ARE 3,000 AFGHAN ASYLUM SEEKERS WAITING TO HEAR FROM THEIR CASES FOR YEARS, NOT BEING ABLE TO WORK AND LIVING IN LIMBO, WHICH COULD REALLY AFFECT THEM.
THEY CAN'T INTEGRATE.
THEY CAN'T FIND PURPOSE.
AND I HOPE THAT GOVERNMENTS STEP UP AND DO MORE.
SO, I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT THE GENERAL, I GUESS, HYSTERIA IN MANY COUNTRIES ABOUT REFUGEES AND MIGRATION.
YOU SAW WHAT HAPPENED IN 2015 WHEN THE SYRIANS CAME OUT AND IT TURNED POLITICS UPSIDE-DOWN, NATIVISM ALL OVER THE WORLD, AT LEAST OUR COUNTRIES.
I WANT TO READ A STATISTIC FROM OXFORD STATISTIC, WHICH SAID THAT THOSE WHO ORIGINALLY CAME TO SEEK ASYLUM HERE IN THE UK MADE UP AN ESTIMATED 0.6 -- THAT'S 0.6 -- OF THE UK POPULATION IN 2019.
SO, IT'S REALLY VERY TINY.
AND WE'VE HEARD FROM SYRIANS LIKE YOURSELF.
WE'RE HEARING FROM AFGHANS NOW THAT THEY WANT TO GO TO THESE COUNTRIES AND CONTRIBUTE AND PAY THEIR TAXES AND DO THE RIGHT THING AND START A NEW LIFE.
SO, I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT THE TITLE OF YOUR BOOK, 'HOPE NOT FEAR,' BUT YOU SAY FINDING MY WAY FROM REFUGEE TO FILMMAKER TO NHS HOSPITAL CLEANER AND ACTIVIST.
THAT IS PRETTY MUCH GIVING BACK.
THAT WAS A -- YOU MADE -- CLEARLY IT WAS A CALCULATED SUBTITLE.
WHAT WERE YOU HOPING TO ACHIEVE WITH THAT LONG, ALL-INCLUSIVE SUBTITLE?
AS HUMANS WE ARE PROGRAMMED TO LISTEN TO STORIES.
STORIES CAN HELP US MAKE SENSE OF THE WORLD.
STORY TELLING IS A VERY, VERY POWERFUL TOOL.
AND THIS IS WHAT I WANTED TO DO BY WRITING THIS BOOK.
I WANTED TO WRITE STORY OF -- YOU KNOW, TEN YEARS AGO I WAS IN DAMASCUS GOING TO GIGS AND HAVING A VERY COMFORTABLE LIFE AND SUDDENLY I HIT ROCK BOTTOM.
AND THIS CAN HAPPEN TO ANYONE.
SO I WANTED PEOPLE TO KNOW WHAT IT FEELS LIKE TO BE UPROOTED AND HAVING TO DO THESE JOURNEYS, TO SEEK ASYLUM AND LIVE IN EXILE FOR MANY YEARS.
AND MORE IMPORTANTLY, I WANTED PEOPLE NOT JUST TO -- I MEAN, I WANTED PEOPLE NOT JUST TO WALK IN MY FOOTSTEPS, BUT ALSO I'M HOPING THAT PEOPLE COULD, YOU KNOW, BE INSPIRED AND DO SOMETHING BECAUSE CERTAINLY NOW, I MEAN, REFUGEES DO NEED HELP IN THEIR HOST COMMUNITIES.
AND WE'VE SEEN INCREDIBLE EXAMPLES HERE IN BRITAIN WHERE PEOPLE HAVE OFFERED THEIR SPARE ROOMS TO REFUGEES, LOADS OF DONATIONS FROM COMMUNITIES TO AND I HOPE -- THIS IS THE MESSAGE OF MY BOOK.
HOPE ON ITS OWN IS VERY PASSIVE.
BUT WHEN IT'S LINKED WITH ACTION, IT CAN ACTUALLY DO -- IT CAN CHANGE PEOPLE'S LIVES.
IT CAN DO SOMETHING.
EXACTLY AND YOU'VE SAID THEY DON'T WANT SYMPATHY.
YOU WANT AN OPPORTUNITY.
LET'S JUST QUICKLY GO BACK TO THE DRAMA.
IN AFGHANISTAN PEOPLE ARE FLEEING WHAT THEY THINK ARE GOING TO BE A CUT THROAT TALIBAN.
YOU WRITE A VERY IMPORTANT PASSAGE IN 'HOPE NOT FEAR' ABOUT WHAT GOT YOU INTO THE BIGGEST TROUBLE.
AND THAT WAS A MEETING WITH THE DICTATOR BASHAR ASSAD, IN WHICH YOU WERE URGED TO SPEAK THE TRUTH.
AND THEN YOU PAID FOR IT.
TELL ME ABOUT THAT MEETING.
I TOOK PART IN THE PROTEST IN THE EARLY UPRISING AND AS A RESULT I GOT DETAINED AND TORTURED.
I WAS NAIVE ENOUGH TO THINK I COULD CHANGE HIS MIND ABOUT THE UPRISING.
AND IT'S LED TO A SECOND DETENTION.
AND I NEVER WANTED TO LEAVE.
YOU KNOW, THAT'S THE THING.
THERE IS A MISCONCEPTION THAT PEOPLE ALWAYS WANT TO COME TO THE WEST.
NO, I WAS COMFORTABLE ENOUGH IN MY OWN COUNTRY.
BUT THEN WHEN YOU RUN OUT OF OPTIONS, YOU ARE PRESENTED WITH TWO CHOICES.
YOU EITHER LEAVE OR YOU DIE.
AND THEN THAT -- I HAD TO FLEE.
AND MY STORY IS ONE OF MILLIONS OF OTHER PEOPLE.
AS I TOLD YOU, LIKE, FROM SYRIA WHO HAD NO OTHER CHOICE THAN TO, YOU KNOW, TO SEEK ASYLUM IN OTHER COUNTRIES.
AND MOST PEOPLE STAY IN THE REGION.
THAT'S THE THING.
WE MAKE SUCH A FUSS ABOUT IMMIGRATION AND REFUGEES WHILE IN BRITAIN LESS THAN 1% OF THE REFUGEE POPULATION IS HERE.
SO, I'M -- AGAIN, I'VE WRITTEN THIS BOOK HOPING THAT IT WILL CHANGE PEOPLE'S MINDS.
IT WILL HELP THEM LOOK AT THE SUBJECT DIFFERENTLY IN A DIFFERENCE WAY.
WELL, INTERESTINGLY, THAT'S PRETTY REALISTIC HOPE BECAUSE DURING THE COVID CRISIS, YOU CHALLENGED THE GOVERNMENT ON A LOT OF ISSUES.
AND IT WAS THE BRITISH GOVERNMENT.
AND IT WAS HEARD AND IT WAS NOTED.
SO, HASAN, THANK YOU FOR YOUR ACTIVISM AND FOR YOUR OPTIMISTIC ACTIVISM IN THESE TERRIBLE, TERRIBLE SITUATIONS.
AUTHOR OF 'HOPE NOT FEAR.'
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