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WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY."
HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.
>> I DIDN'T KNOW HOW MANY MORE TRAGEDIES LIKE THIS HAVE TO OCCUR FOR ALL PROMISES TO BE FULFILLED AND FOR ALL NEW COMMITMENTS TO BE MADE.
>> A DEVASTATING RUSSIAN STRIKE KILLS DOZENS IN CENTRAL UKRAINE.
I SPEAK WITH FOREIGN MINISTER DMYTRO KULEBA STRAIGHT AFTER A MEETING OF THE WAR CABINET WITH PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY.
>>> THEN -- >> DO YOU THINK IT'S TIME FOR PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU TO DO MORE ON THIS ISSUE?
DO YOU THINK HE'S DOING ENOUGH?
>> NO.
>> TENS OF THOUSANDS OF ISRAELIS OUT ON THE STREETSZ.
WILL IT BE ENOUGH TO MAKE BENJAMIN NETANYAHU BUDGE?
>>> AND -- >> THE ROBERTS COURT CONTINUOUSLY PUTS ITS THUM ON THE SCALE TO THE ADVANTAGE OF THE REPUBLICAN POLITICIANS WHO PLACE THEM THERE.
>> Reporter: AND SPEAKING TO AUTHOR DAVID DALEY ON WHAT HE CALLS AN EFFORT BY REPUBLICANS TO UNDERMINE MAJORITY RULE.
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THANK YOU.
>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.
I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN KYIV WHERE THE NATION IS REELING FROM YET ANOTHER CATASTROPHIC RUSSIAN ATTACK.
AS OF NOW MORE THAN 50 PEOPLE ARE DEAD IN A BALLISTIC MISSILE STRIKE ON A MILITARY EDUCATIONAL FACILITY AND A HOSPITAL IN THE CENTRAL UKRAINIAN CITY OF POLTAVA, AND THERE'S MUCH MORE THAN A HUNDRED INJURED.
THE UKRAINIAN DEFENSE MINISTRY SAID THAT THE TIME BETWEEN THE AIR-RAID ALARM AND THE STRIKE WAS SO SHORT THAT IT CAUGHT PEOPLE AS THEY WERE TRYING TO GET TO SHELTER.
IT'S ONE OF THE DEADLIEST SINGLE ATTACKS ON UKRAINE SINCE RUSSIA INVADED FEBRUARY 2022.
THAT'S 30 MONTHS AGO.
AND THE UKRAINIAN GOVERNMENT SAID TONIGHT THAT BOTH CIVILIANS AND SERVICEMEN WERE AMONG THE CASUALTIES.
PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY HAS RESPONDED TO THIS ATTACK WITH A PLEA FOR MORE SUPPORT SAYING, QUOTE, WE CONTINUE TO URGE EVERYONE IN THE WORLD WHO HAS THE POWER TO STOP THIS TERROR.
UKRAINE NEEDS AIR DEFENSE SYSTEMS AND MISSILES NOW, NOT SITTING IN STORAGE.
EVERY DAY OF DELAY, UNFORTUNATELY, MEANS MORE LOST LIVES.
NOW, DMYTRO KULEBA IS UKRAINE'S FOREIGN MINISTER, AND WE SPOKE RIGHT AFTER NEWS OF THE MASS KILLING IN POLTAVA BROKE.
AT THE TIME THE NUMBERS WERE COMING IN, AND THE NUMBERS HE GAVE WERE STILL BEING COUNTED.
FOREIGN MINISTER KULEBA, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
YOU HAVE HAD AN IMPORTANT MEETING WITH THE PRESIDENT AND MEMBERS OF THE WAR CABINET TODAY.
POLTAVA WAS ATTACKED, AND THERE HAVE BEEN SCORES OF INJURED AND DEAD.
CAN YOU CONFIRM TO US WHAT HAPPENED, WHAT WAS TARGETED, WHAT ARE THE CASUALTIES?
>> BALLISTIC MISSILES, EDUCATIONAL FACILITY, THE CITY OF POLTAVA, A LARGE CITY IN UKRAINE.
I ACTUALLY COME MYSELF FROM THE POLTAVA REGION.
MY FATHER IS FROM THEIR, SO THIS GEOGRAPHY IS VERY FAMILIAR TO ME.
AND WE HAD A VERY DETAILED BRIEFING, AND THE MAIN TAKE AWAY, THE MAIN LESSON THAT I WANT EVERYONE, AGAIN, TO HEAR ABOUT, AND WE WILL NOT GET TIRED OF REMINDING OF IT.
THIS IS JUST ANOTHER REASON WHY DELIVERY OF AIR DEFENSE SYSTEMS TO UKRAINE MUST BE EXPEDITED.
>> YOU THINK IF YOU'D HAD THEM THERE THIS WOULD HAVE BEEN INTERCEPTED?
>> WELL, BALLISTIC MISSILES ARE VERY DIFFICULT TO INTERCEPT AND POLTAVA IS IN THE EASTERN OF UKRAINE, SO MUCH CLOSER TO THE RUSSIAN TERRITORY.
ACCORDING TO WHAT I KNOW, THE TIME RANGE FOR THE -- FOR THE BALLISTIC MISSILES TO REACH THE TARGET WAS VERY SHORT.
AND THE ONLY WAY TO INTERCEPT THEM WAS TO HAVE -- TO HAVE THE PATRIOT SYSTEM AIR DEFENSE SYSTEM BECAUSE THEY'RE THE ONLY ONE CAPABLE OF INTERCEPTING BALLISTIC MISSILES.
I DON'T KNOW HOW MANY MORE TRAGEDIES LIKE THIS HAVE TO OCCUR FOR ALL PROMISES TO BE FULFILLED AND FOR ALL NEW COMMITMENTS TO BE MADE.
>> FROM WHAT WE UNDERSTAND AND I'D LIKE YOU TO CONFIRM, THE EDUCATION FACILITY WAS TARGETED AS WAS A HOSPITAL.
THIS IS A DEFENSE, A MILITARY EDUCATION CENTER.
CAN YOU TELL US WHAT ARE THE NUMBER OF CASUALTIES?
>> WELL, THE MOST RECENT NUMBER THAT I HEARD WAS LIKE 40 -- 40 DEAD, BUT MORE THAN 100 WOUNDED.
BUT THIS NUMBER, UNFORTUNATELY, ARE GROWING.
WE STARTED THE MEETING IN THE MORNING WITH ONE NUMBER AND THE MEETING LASTED FOR AN HOUR AND A HALF, AND BY THE END OF IT THE NUMBERS INCREASED.
>> IN THE LAST WEEK IT SEEMS THAT THIS BARRAGE FROM RUSSIA AGAINST UKRAINE HAS REALLY STEPPED UP.
I MEAN THERE HAVE JUST BEEN A LOT OF ATTACKS.
JUST THIS WEEK ALONE ON MONDAY, THE FIRST WEEK OF SCHOOL, YOU KNOW, THERE WAS A LOT OF INCOMING HERE IN KYIV AND ELSEWHERE.
TO WHAT DO YOU ATTRIBUTE THIS NOT SUDDEN BUT THIS NOTICEABLE INCREASE?
>> WINTER IS COMING.
PUTIN STILL HAS THE SAME PURPOSE, TO FREEZE PEOPLE, TO DESTROY OUR ECONOMY, AND THIS IS HIS STRATEGY.
SO I'M AFRAID THAT HE WILL CONTINUE TO -- HE WILL CONTINUE WITH HIS BARRAGE OF MISSILE AND DRONE ATTACKS IN THE COURSE -- IN THE COURSE OF THE AUTUMN.
BUT I WANTED TO SET ONE THING STRAIGHT.
I DON'T WANT ANYONE TO THINK UKRAINE IS ASKING FOR AIR DEFENSE SYSTEMS WHILE SAVING ITSELF HANDS DOWN, THIS IS NOT THE CASE.
WE ARE DOING MORE THAN WE CAN TO USE OUR MOBILE GROUPS SHOOTING, INTERCEPTING DRONES, TO EFFICIENTLY USE AIR DEFENSE SYSTEMS AVAILABLE TO US.
THOUGH WE ARE DOING OUR PART OF THE HOMEWORK, WE'RE ASKING OUR PARTNERS TO DO THEIR PART OF THE HOMEWORK, ESPECIALLY WITH REGARD TO THOSE SYSTEMS WHICH WERE PROMISED BUT HAVE NOT DELIVERED YET.
>> SO OBVIOUSLY YOU'RE WAITING FOR MORE DELIVERIES, BUT YOU'VE ALSO SAID THE WEAPONS YOU ACTUALLY HAVE, YOU NEED TO BE FREED TO USE THEM TO ITS FULL CAPACITY.
THE HEAD OF THE EU FOREIGN POLICY AGREES WITH YOU, SAYS OTHERWISE THESE WEAPONS ARE USELESS.
YOU SAID THAT YOU'RE FIGHTING WITH YOUR HANDS BEHIND YOUR BACKS.
I KNOW YOU HAVE SENT A DELEGATION TO THE UNITED STATES THROUGH THE ADMINISTRATION.
WHERE ARE YOU ON TRYING TO GET THESE RESTRICTIONS -- AND THEY'RE MOSTLY FROM THE UNITED STATES -- LIFTED?
>> WE'RE FACING THE LAST REAL PROBLEM AND I RECKON IN MY MIND HOW TO COVER THAT LAST MILE.
THE DECISION -- THE CAPACITY OF UKRAINE TO STRIKE MILITARY TARGETS DEEP INSIDE OF RUSSIA AND DIMINISH THE RUSSIAN CAPACITY FOR AIR ATTACKS ON UKRAINE LAYS WITH THE UNITED STATES, THE UNITED KINGDOM, FRANCE AND GERMANY.
THESE ARE THE COUNTRIES WHO ARE CLOSE TO US, WHO ARE FRIENDLY TO US, AND THEY HAVE NECESSARY MISSILES.
SO THEY HAVE TO DO TWO THINGS BASICALLY.
FIRST, TO MAKE A DECISION THAT ALLOWS US TO STRIKE THIS MILITARY AIRFIELD WHERE STRATEGIC BOMBERS TAKE OFF CARRYING MISSILES AND BOMBS.
AND SECOND, TO PROVIDE US WITH A SUFFICIENT AMOUNT OF MISSILES.
THIS IS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE.
THIS IS JUST VERY BANAL ISSUE OF MAKING THE RIGHT DECISIONS ON TIME.
>> SO WHAT WOULD YOU SAY TO THEM?
BECAUSE YOU CONSTANTLY HEAR THAT THE REASON IS ESCALATION.
THEY DON'T WANT ESCALATION WITH RUSSIA.
>> WHAT ELSE HAS TO HAPPEN FOR EVERYONE IN THE WORLD TO UNDERSTAND THAT THE ESCALATION ARGUMENT IS FLAWED.
IT NEVER WORKED IN THE LAST 2 1/2 YEARS.
IT SIMPLY SERVES AS AN EXCUSE NOT THE DO SOMETHING.
>> MEANTIME, THE POLISH FOREIGN MINISTER SAID ON MONDAY THEY HAD TO SCRAMBLE FIGHTER JETS ALONG THEIR BORDER WITH UKRAINE BECAUSE OF THE INCOMING BALLISTIC MISSILES.
THAT'S A NATO COUNTRY, AND IT'S TAKING MATTERS INTO ITS OWN HANDS.
LET ME READ WHAT -- HE ESSENTIALLY SAID MEMBERSHIP IN NATO DOES NOT TRUMP EACH COUNTRY'S RESPONSIBILITY FOR PROTECTION OF ITS AIRSPACE.
IT'S OUR OWN CONSTITUTIONAL DOTTY.
IT WOULD BE LEGITIMATE SELF-DEFENSE TO STRIKE THEM.
SO HAVE YOU TALKED TO POLAND OR OTHER NATO NEIGHBORS ABOUT THIS?
DO YOU FORESEE MORE OF THE FRONT LINE STATES BECOMING MORE LIKE THIS?
>> WE ARE TALKING TO POLAND EXTENSIVELY, AND THEY FEEL THIS THREAT ON THEIR SKIN.
SO THEY ARE THE MOST NATURAL INTERLOCKTER FOR US TO HAVE THIS CONVERSATION, BUT THEY CAN NOT MAKE THE DECISION ON THEIR OWN.
THEIR DEFENSE SYSTEM IS PART OF THE INTEGRATED NATO AIR DEFENSE SYSTEM.
SO THERE NEEDS TO BE A DECISION THAT WILL BE CLEARED -- WILL BE AGREED UPON BY ALL PARTIES INVOLVED.
>> TO ACTUALLY INTERCEPT THESE BALLISTICS MISSILES EVEN IN UKRAINIAN AIRSPACE.
>> WELL, IT'S A PIECE OF STEEL OR ALUMINUM, WHATEVER IT'S MADE OF.
LET'S GET IT HERE.
INTERCEPTING RUSSIAN MISSILE IS NOT ABOUT KILLING RUSSIAN SOLDIER, WHICH COULD THEORETICALLY BE INTERPRETED AS AN ENTRY TO THE WAR AS A PARTY TO THE CONFLICT.
BUT THIS IS JUST A PIECE OF DEATH THAT FLIES IN THE AIR AND IT HAS TO BE, MUST BE INTERCEPTED IN UKRAINE IF IT IS WITHIN REACH OF THE ALLIED AIR DEFENSE SYSTEM.
>> CAN I ASK YOU ABOUT THE KURSK INCURSION?
THIS SEEMED TO COME AS A BIG SURPRISE TO EVERYBODY.
YOU OBVIOUSLY HAVE OPERATIONAL SECURITY, BUT WHY DID YOU DO THIS?
LET'S SAY FROM THE DIPLOMATIC PERSPECTIVE, WHICH YOU ARE THE CHIEF DIPLOMAT, WHAT IS THE STRATEGY BEHIND THIS?
>> FIRST, EVERY WAR OF THIS SCALE THAT WE'RE HAVING HAS MULTIPLE THEATERS OF WAR.
SO THINGS HAPPEN SIMULTANEOUSLY IN DIFFERENT DIRECTIONS.
AND YOU HAVE TO CONSTANTLY THINK HOW TO MAKE THE LIFE OF YOUR ENEMY MORE COMPLICATED.
HOW TO IMPOSE YOUR WILL ON THE ENEMY AND NOT ENDURE THE WILL OF THE ENEMY IMPOSED ON YOU.
SECOND, YOU REMEMBER WE SPOKE IN THE SPRING I THINK, AND EVERYONE WAS TALKING ABOUT A STALEMATE IN THE WAR AND THERE'S NOTHING UKRAINE CAN DO, UKRAINE CANNOT CHANGE THE COURSE OF THE WAR.
RUSSIA IS MOVING, IS ADVANCING AND THERE'S NOTHING UKRAINE CAN DO.
AND IT HAD A DIRECT IMPACT IN CAPITALS AMONG OUR PARTNERS AND THE DECISION MAKING PROCESS.
NOW WE SHOWED EVERYONE WE DEFEATED -- NOT ONLY WE DEFEATED THE RUSSIAN ARMY IN KURSK, WE DEFEATED THE ARGUMENT SO POPULAR AMONG OUR PARTNERS THAT THERE WAS A STALEMATE BECAUSE NOW EVERYONE SEES THAT WHEN -- EVERYONE SEES WHAT WE HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT ALL THE TIME.
WHEN UKRAINE HAS EVERYTHING IT NEEDS, WE DO NOT LACK COURAGE AND MILITARY SKILL TO ADVANCE AND WIN.
>> SO, YOU KNOW, THIS IS SOMETHING YOU WANTED TO SHOW YOUR PARTNERS.
IT'S A MORALE BOOST FOR YOUR OWN PEOPLE.
WAS IT AIMED AT CHANGING A CALCULATION IN MOSCOW, TOO, TO PUTIN OR PEOPLE AROUND PUTIN?
>> I DON'T BELIEVE PEOPLE AROUND PUTIN.
I THINK WHAT PEOPLE OF RUSSIA SAW IS THAT PUTIN IS MORE EFFICIENT IN GRABBING SOMEONE ELSE'S LAND THAN IN DEFENDING HIS OWN LAND.
AND I THINK THIS IS A VERY IMPORTANT MESSAGE THAT NONE OF US CAN FULLY -- CAN FULLY APPRECIATE IN A SENSE OF ITS IMPACT ON THE PEOPLE OF RUSSIA.
BUT IT'S THERE.
THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT IT, THEY'RE ASKING THEMSELVES QUESTIONS.
AND NOW THE RUSSIANS SEE HOW THE RUSSIAN ARMY IS EVEN WITH THE GROUND, RUSSIAN VILLAGES, RUSSIAN HOUSES, THAT HAS A VERY NEGATIVE IMPACT ON THEM AS WELL.
>> TALKING ABOUT GRABBING TERRITORY, AS YOU KNOW RUSSIANS ARE ADVANCING ON POPOROSK, ON IMPORTANT LOGISTICAL HUBS.
THERE'S SOME ANGER AMONGST UKRAINIANS.
THEY SAY HANG ON A SECOND, IT'S ONE THING GOING UP THERE, BUT DON'T FORGET WE NEED TO BE ABLE TO DEFEND THE TERRITORY WE'RE TRYING TO DEFEND HERE.
THIS IS ALSO REALLY IMPORTANT.
CAN YOU TALK TO THE -- TO THAT AND TO THE TRADEOFF IF THERE IS ONE?
>> FIRST, WE DO NOT THINK IN TERMS OF TRADEOFFS.
THIS IS NOT OUR LOGIC.
WE'RE NOT TRADING OUR TERRITORIES.
WE'RE NOT TRADING OUR PEOPLE.
THERE WAS A CLEAR OBJECTIVE TO MAKE RUSSIA'S LIFE MORE DIFFICULT, AND THIS WAS ONE OF THE KEY GOALS OF THE KURSK OPERATION.
SECOND, AS PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY STATED ON A NUMBER OF OCCASIONS WE HAVE TAKEN MANY PRISONERS OF WAR IN KURSK, WHICH WILL ALLOW US TO DO A SWAP AND BRING MORE OF OUR SOLDIERS BACK.
THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT ISSUE.
>> AND THE TERRITORIAL SWAP, POSSIBLY, IS THAT ALSO AN ISSUE?
IF YOU -- IF YOU OCCUPY HOW MANY MORE SQUARE KILOMETERS OF RUSSIAN LAND, IS THAT ALSO A BARGAINING CHIP?
>> NO.
WE DON'T THINK OF IT IN TERMS OF SWAPPING TERRITORIES BECAUSE THAT WILL IMPLY THAT WE HAVE TO SWAP SOMETHING IN UKRAINE, AND WE WON'T DO THAT.
BUT, AGAIN, IF WE WERE NOT DOING ANYTHING AND RUSSIA WAS STILL ADVANCING NEAR POPOROSK THE ARGUMENT WOULD BE WHY AREN'T YOU DOING ANYTHING.
WE'VE DONE SOMETHING, SOMETHING IS HAPPENING IMPACT.
BUT IT DOES NOT UNDERMINE OUR EFFORTS.
OF COURSE OUR GENERALS ARE BETTER FIT TO TALK ABOUT THIS MATTER, BUT FROM WHAT I SEE, AGAIN, THIS IS A WAR OF MULTIPLE THEATERS, AND WE SHOULD NEVER WASTE AN OPPORTUNITY TO INFLICT MORE DAMAGE ON THE ENEMY.
>> SO AS YOU SPOKE AT THE BEGINNING THE RUSSIANS SEE WINTER COMING.
THEY WANT TO ATTACK YOUR ENERGY GRID LIKE THEY DID THE FIRST WINTER FOR SURE.
AND YOU ARE ALSO ATTACKING THEIR REFINERIES.
I MEAN LET'S FACE IT, AND THE WEST DOESN'T LIKE THAT BECAUSE IT JACKS UP THE PRICE OF OIL.
BUT THERE HAS BEEN A REPORT THAT THERE WAS SOME DIPLOMACY UNDER WAY TO HAVE AT LEAST SOME LOCALIZED CEASE-FIRE ON ENERGY INFRASTRUCTURE FOR THE WINTER, THAT QATAR OR SOMEONE ELSE MIGHT MEDIATE.
CAN YOU CONFIRM THAT TO US AND TELL US?
THIS IS BEFORE THE KURSK INVASION.
>> EVER SINCE THE LARGE SCALE INVASION BEGAN THERE HAVE BEEN NUMEROUS ATTEMPTS TO DO DIPLOMACY AGAINST THE BACKGROUND OF THE RAGING FRONT LINE.
SOME INITIATIVES WERE MORE SUCCESSFUL THAN OTHERS, BUT FIRST AND FOREMOST AND UKRAINE IS BEING ATTACKED.
YOU DON'T HAVE TO BARGAIN WITH THEM ON THIS.
THEY MUST STOP IT.
I THINK THIS IS CLEAR TO EVERYONE.
SO I WOULD -- WHAT I CAN SAY IS THAT RUMORS THAT KURSK OPERATION KILLED THE OPPORTUNITY TO DEFEND UKRAINE, TO STOP RUSSIAN ATTACKS ON UKRAINE'S ENERGY INFRASTRUCTURE ARE LARGELY EXAGGERATED.
>> AS I SAID YOU HAVE A DELEGATION TRYING TO PERSUADE THE ADMINISTRATION TO DO MANY THINGS.
I ALSO WANT TO UNDERSTAND WHERE YOU ARE WITH NATO.
YOU WERE HOPING FOR AN INVITATION TO START THE PROCESS DURING THE SUMMER SUMMIT.
IT DIDN'T COME.
DO YOU THINK IT'S GOING TO COME ANYTIME SOON?
>> IF I DIDN'T I -- >> WHEN DO YOU THINK IT MIGHT?
>> WELL, I CLEARLY SEE AN OPPORTUNITY FOR THAT TO HAPPEN BEFORE THE NEXT SUMMIT -- NATO SUMMIT IN THE NETHERLANDS IN 2025.
I THINK, YOU KNOW, WHEN THERE IS A WILL, THERE'S A WAY.
AND THE WAY IS ACTUALLY CLEAR.
YOU DON'T EVEN HAVE TO LOOK FOR IT BECAUSE BY ALL ACCOUNTS UKRAINE CAN BE -- RECEIVE AN INVITATION EVEN NOW, EVEN TODAY.
BECAUSE WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT IMMINENT MEMBERSHIP IN NATO.
THIS IS JUST ABOUT CLARIFYING THE SIGNAL, ABOUT REMOVING THIS -- THERE'S THIS SAYING CONSTRUCTIVE AMBIGUITY.
IT'S NOT CONSTRUCTIVE ANYMORE.
SO I THINK FOR US THE ISSUE OF INVITATION IS STILL ON THE TABLE.
WE'RE BRINGING THIS POINT UP IN TALKS WITH OUR ALLIES, OF COURSE, FIRST AND FOREMOST, WITH THE UNITED STATES.
AND WE WANT TO MAKE IT VERY CLEAR WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT BECOMING NATO MEMBER TOMORROW, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT EXTENDING INVITATION TO UKRAINE TODAY.
>> MEANTIME, CAN YOU TELL US ABOUT THE FOUR-POINT VICTORY PLAN TAT YOU'RE ALSO GOING TO PRESENT TO THE ADMINISTRATION?
WHAT IS THAT?
>> LET'S LEAVE IT TO THE PRESIDENT.
HE MADE A TEASER ABOUT IT, AND IT'S -- IT'S A VERY SHORT BUT IN MY VIEW VERY EFFICIENT WAY IF PARTNERS DECIDE TO SUPPORT IT.
THE PRESIDENT WILL HIMSELF REVEAL ALL THE DETAILS AT THE APPROPRIATE TIME.
>> LASTLY, AS WE SPEAK AND AS THESE BALLISTIC MISSILES KEEP RAINING DOWN, PRESIDENT PUTIN IS IN MONGOLIA, BEING RECEIVED BY THE PRESIDENT THERE.
MONGOLIA IS A SIGNATORY TO THE ICC.
THE PRESIDENT HAS BEEN INDICTED FOR REMOVING UKRAINIAN CHILDREN.
WHAT'S YOUR REACTION TO THAT?
>> WELL -- >> KID YOU TALK TO THE MONGOLIANS?
>> IT'S STRONG -- WE TOLD THEM.
WE SENT A VERY CLEAR MESSAGE AHEAD OF THE VISIT.
IT WAS IGNORED.
WE SENT A VERY CLEAR MESSAGE AFTER THE VISIT BEGAN.
IT SEEMS TO BE IGNORED AS WELL.
WE WILL BE TALKING INSIDE OF UKRAINE AND ALSO WITH OUR PARTNERS ON HOW MONGOLIA'S RESPECT TOWARDS ITS OWN INTERNATIONAL OBLIGATIONS -- >> BUT YOU DON'T EXPECT PRESIDENT PUTIN TO BE ARRESTED WHILE HE'S THERE?
>> WELL, I DO.
BUT FROM EVERYTHING I'VE SEEN SO FAR IT SEEMS TO ME MONGOLIA DECIDED TO BLATANTLY VIOLATE ITS OBLIGATIONS UNDER THEIR OWN STATUTE.
>> FOREIGN MINISTER KULEBA, THANK YOU VERY MUCH, INDEED, FOR BEING WITH US.
>> THANK YOU.
>>> AND IN WASHINGTON REACTING TO THE RUSSIAN STRIKE TODAY THE U.S. NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL SPOKESPERSON, JOHN KIRBY, OFFERED CONDOLENCES THE PEOPLE OF UKRAINE CALLING IT ANOTHER HORRIFIC REMINDER OF THE EXTENT OF MR. PUTIN'S BRUTALITY AND REITERATING, QUOTE, UNSHAKABLE U.S. SUPPORT FOR KYIV.
OF COURSE, THAT IS SOMETHING THIS GOVERNMENT WOULD BE VERY PLEASED TO HEAR ABOUT, BUT THEY WOULD KEEP SAYING, YES, WE APPRECIATE YOUR THOUGHTS BUT WE NEED THE WEAPONS TO DEFEND OURSELVES.
LET'S GET BACK NOW TO BIANNA IN NEW YORK FOR THE REST OF THE DAY'S NEWS.
>> SUCH AN INTERESTING CONVERSATION AND INTERVIEW AND IT'S SUCH A PIVOTAL TIME THERE WITH THAT MASSIVE STRIKE.
CHRISTIANE, THE CASUALTY FIGURES CONTINUE TO CLIMB.
I'M CURIOUS WHAT IS THE MOOD THERE IN KYIV TODAY FOLLOWING THIS DEVASTATING STRIKE?
>> SO THIS IS YET ANOTHER ONE IN A -- I MEAN THE WORST ONE THAT AS WE SAY FOR MANY, MANY MONTHS, PERHAPS SINCE THE BEGINNING OF THE WAR.
BUT THERE'S BEEN A REAL UPTICK OF VERY, VERY HARD BALLISTIC MISSILE STRIKES ALL OVER THE COUNTRY INCLUDING HERE, INCLUDING ON THE FIRST DAY OF SCHOOL, WHICH WAS YESTERDAY.
AND OF COURSE IT UPSETS PEOPLE.
OF COURSE IT SHAKES THEM, BUT WE ALSO KNOW THAT THEY BASICALLY SAY SURRENDER IS NOT A -- NOT AN OPTION.
CAPITULATION, LOSS, OCCUPATION, NONE OF THESE ARE AN OPTION.
AND HONESTLY WHEN I TALK TO PEOPLE WHETHER THEY ARE CITIZENS OR WHETHER THEY'RE IN THE REALM OF TRYING TO, YOU KNOW, BUILD UP THE MILITARY CAPABILITY, TRY TO, YOU KNOW, MORE IN THE ORGANIZATION SPHERE, THEY ARE PREPARED FOR THIS TO BE A LONG SLOG.
I THINK THEY KNOW THAT WHATEVER THEY MIGHT HAVE HOPED AT THE BEGINNING ONCE THEY REPEL THE INITIAL RUSSIAN INVASION FROM AROUND KYIV, PERHAPS THEY HOPE THAT, YOU KNOW, THAT MOMENTUM WOULD BRING THEM A MUCH SWIFTER VICTORY.
BUT NOW THEY SEE THIS IS GOING TO BE IN IT REALLY, REALLY FOR A LONG TIME.
SO THEY REALLY NEED NOT ONLY TO BOLSTER THEIR OWN DEFENSES, BOLSTER THEIR OWN MORALE, BOLSTER THEIR CONSCRIPTS AND MANPOWER BUT ALSO HOPE THAT THEIR PARTNERS WILL GIVE THEM THE VITAL -- AND QUICKLY IN TIMELY MANNER, THE VITAL THINGS THEY NEED TO DEFEND THEMSELVES AGAINST THESE KINDS OF MISSILES, FOR INSTANCE.
>> YEAH, IT IS A NOTABLE AND UNDERSTANDABLE ARGUMENT TO MAKE FROM KULEBA, WHERE HE SAYS THESE AIR DEFENSE SYSTEMS ARE NOT INTENDED TO KILL RUSSIAN SOLDIERS, THEY'RE INTENDED TO PROTECT UKRAINIAN LIVES.
CHRISTIANE, REALLY IMPORTANT INTERVIEW AT A PIVOTAL MOMENT.
THANK YOU SO MUCH.
>>> MEANTIME, TO THE MIDDLE EAST WHERE ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU WAS UNDER PRESSURE AT HOME AND AROUND THE WORLD AFTER THE MURDERS THIS WEEKEND OF SIX HOSTAGES IN GAZA BY HAMAS.
HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF ISRAELIS FLOODED THE STREETS THIS WEEK TO PROTEST THE GOVERNMENT'S FAILURE TO SECURE A CEASE-FIRE AND HOSTAGE DEAL.
AND IN WASHINGTON PRESIDENT BIDEN SAYS FLAT OUT THAT PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU IS NOT DOING ENOUGH TO SECURE A DEAL.
THE PRIME MINISTER, MEANTIME, IS DEFIANT SAYING ANY CONCESSIONS BY ISRAEL NOW WOULD EMPOWER HAMAS TO, QUOTE, KILL MORE HOSTAGES.
CRITICS OF THE PRIME MINISTER ACCUSE HIM OF SENTENCING THE REMAINING HOSTAGES TO DEATH, WHILE A SOURCE CLOSE TO NEGOTIATIONS TOLD CNN, QUOTE, THIS GUY TORPEDOED EVERYTHING IN ONE SPEECH.
NOW, THIS COMES AS THE BRITISH GOVERNMENT IS NOW SUSPENDING SOME ARMS EXPORTS TO ISRAEL TO PREVENT THEIR POSSIBLE USE IN VIOLATION OF INTERNATIONAL HUMANITARIAN LAW.
JOINING ME NOW IS JOURNALIST RONEN BERGMAN, STAFF WRITER FOR "THE NEW YORK TIMES" MAGAZINE WHO'S BEEN CLOSELY FOLLOWING THIS STORY FOR US.
RONEN, WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.
GOOD TO SEE YOU.
IN HIS SPEECH YESTERDAY THE PRIME MINISTER MADE CLEAR HE WOULD NOT COMPROMISE ON THE PHILADELPHIA CORRIDOR, AND THAT CLEARLY IS A NONSTARTER FOR ANY SERIOUS NEGOTIATIONS AND AGREEMENT REGARDING A HOSTAGE DEAL.
AND ISRAELI MEDIA CLAIMS HE HASN'T MENTIONED THE PHILADELPHIA CORRIDOR FOR 15 YEARS.
IT WASN'T IN THE INITIAL MAY PROPOSAL THAT THE PRIME MINISTER AND PRESIDENT BIDEN AGREED TO.
AND I SPOKE TO THE MOTHER OF A HOSTAGE WHOSE DAUGHTER ROMI AND HERE'S WHAT SHE SAID AFTER THE PRIME MINISTER'S SPEECH.
>> I THINK I WANTED TO SPEAK TO THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY, WHICH IS IMPORTANT ALSO IN THIS AGREEMENT.
THIS IS SOMETHING THAT WE'RE DOING TOGETHER, AND I'M JUST ASKING WHY PHILADELPHIA IS SO IMPORTANT.
IT WASN'T IMPORTANT FOR EIGHT MONTHS, SO I ASK THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY TO CHECK IF THIS IS SO IMPORTANT, HOW THEY WILL TAKE RESPONSIBILITY OVER THIS SO ISRAEL WILL NOT HAVE TO STAY THERE, AND WE WILL BE ABLE TO TAKE OUT THE HOSTAGES AND STILL REMAIN THIS BORDER AS QUIET AS POSSIBLE.
>> RONEN, HOW DID THE PHILADELPHIA CORRIDOR BECOME SUCH A STUMBLING BLOCK, AND WHY IS THE PRIME MINISTER SO DEFIANT NOW AT THIS POINT ABOUT IT?
>> THANK YOU.
I THINK QUOTING ONE OF THE MOST SENIOR ISRAELI OFFICIALS IN THE NEGOTIATIONS, HE TOLD ME THAT THIS IS WEEKS AGO BUT HE REPEATED THAT TODAY.
HE SAID PEOPLE DON'T UNDERSTAND THAT THE PHILADELPHIA CORRIDOR AND AFTER HE AND ISRAEL PROPOSED THE MAY 27th DRAFT, IT'S ALL ABOUT SABOTAGING THE AGREEMENT.
THEREFORE, HE WILL COME UP WITH SOMETHING ELSE.
IT'S ALL ABOUT THE AGREEMENT, MAKING SURE THERE WILL BE NO AGREEMENT AND NOT ABOUT SECURING SAFETY, NATIONAL SECURITY.
BECAUSE IF THIS WAS SO IMPORTANT -- YESTERDAY MR. NETANYAHU DEFINED -- HE CALLED THE PHILADELPHI CORRIDOR SOMETHING EXISTENTIAL FOR ISRAEL.
WHILE MILITARY INTELLIGENCE AND MOSSAD WILL DOUBT THE INTELLIGENCE WHAT NETANYAHU CLAIMED ABOUT THE CORRIDOR -- IF THIS IS SO IMPORTANT WHY NETANYAHU FAILED TO MENTION JUST A MONTH AGO WHEN IT WAS CLEAR ACCORDING TO ISRAEL IT IS SO IMPORTANT.
AND THIS IS, AGAIN, ABOUT OTHER THINGS.
NETANYAHU AGREED TO THE MAY 27 PROPOSAL.
NOW HE SAID HE ACCEPTED THAT BUT HE PROPOSED THAT.
WHEN HE SAW HAMAS ON JULY 2nd HAD AN ANSWER THAT HAD STILL MANY DIFFICULTIES BUT WAS SEEN AS RELATIVELY POSITIVE BY THE ISRAELI INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY AND THE ISRAEL NEGOTIATORS, THEY THOUGHT THIS WAS THE OPENING FOR SIGNING AN AGREEMENT.
SHORTLY AFTERWARDS HE WROTE A DOCUMENT, WHICH HE CALLED THE CLARIFICATION, BUT IT DID MANY THINGS EXCEPT FOR CLARIFYING, WHERE HE ADDED THE PHILADELPHI CORRIDOR AND ADDED OTHER ARRANGEMENTS WHICH IS A EUPHEMISM TO PUT AN OBSTUCKAL AND OTHER THINGS ACCORDING TO THE EXPERTS OF THE MILITARY ESTABLISHMENT BECAUSE THERE WILL BE MORE AND MORE AND MORE EXCUSES.
NETANYAHU POLITICAL ANALYSTS SAY IS AFRAID OF THE OTHER RIGHT WING PART OF HIS GOVERNMENT.
THEY ALREADY THREATENED THAT IF THERE IS A DEAL, IF THERE IS A CEASE-FIRE, IF THERE IS A WITHDRAWAL FROM GAZA WHERE THEY WANT TO RE-ESTABLISH THE SETTLEMENTS AND ANNEX GAZA, THEY WILL DISASSEMBLE THE COALITION.
AND NETANYAHU -- PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU SETUP HIS PRIORITY PUTTING HIGH ABOVE THE HOSTAGES -- DYING HOSTAGES AND THEIR FATE.
>> THIS COMES AS ISRAEL IS NOW BEARING THE LATEST SIX HOSTAGES WHO WERE DISCOVERED AFTER THEY WERE MURDERED OVER THE WEEKEND BY HAMAS.
BY ALL INTENTS AND PURPOSES THREE OF THEM IF NOT FIVE OF THEM WERE EXPECTED TO HAVE BEEN PART OF THE INITIAL PHASE OF A DEAL TO COME HOME.
THIS COMES JUST DAYS, HOURS PERHAPS AFTER A CONTENTIOUS MEETING WAS LEAKED, A CABINET MEETING IN WHICH THE PRIME MINISTER SEEMED TO BLIND SIDE HIS CABINET AND BY ORDERING THERE BE A VOTE ON THE PHILADELPHIA CORRIDOR.
YOU AND HAVE DISCUSSED THE DAYLIGHT BETWEEN THE DEFENSE MINISTER GALLANT WHO HAS SAID NOW IS TIME FOR A DEAL.
WE DO NOT NEED TO MAINTAIN IDF TROOPS AT THAT PHILADELPHI CORRIDOR.
AND THEIR STRATEGY IS A STRATEGIC ARGUMENT TO BE MADE TO PAUSE THE WAR AS WELL.
IF THAT'S NOT ENOUGH TO CONVINCE THE PRIME MINISTER IN ADDITION TO SOME OF THE LARGEST RALLIES WE'VE SEEN IN YEARS, WHAT IS GOING TO BE THE TURNING POINT?
IS IT DEFECTIONS, RESIGNATIONS FROM HIS COALITION, FROM HIS CABINET?
OR WILL IT LIKELY BE MORE INCREASED PRESSURE FROM THE OUTSIDE, IN PARTICULAR THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION?
>> I DON'T -- I CANNOT READ HIS MIND, NOR I WILL TRY, BUT IT SEEMS IF THE INTEGRITY OF THE COALITION IS WHAT HE CARES ABOUT MORE THAN ANYONE ELSE, THEN ANYONE WHO WILL DEFECT THE COALITION WILL ENDANGER THAT AND MAYBE POSE A REAL THREAT, A REAL PRICE TAG THAT WOULD OR COULD INFLUENCE.
BUT I DON'T KNOW -- NOBODY KNOWS IF THIS IS GOING TO HAPPEN.
THE DAYLIGHT IS -- THE DAY, NIGHT DIFFERENCE IS NOT JUST BETWEEN HIM AND THE MINISTRY OF DEFENSE -- THE WHOLE OF THE MILL STARE ESTABLISHMENT ALL SAY IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT AND IT'S VERY IMPORTANT THE FATE OF THE HOSTAGES, WHO ARE DYING EVERY DAY.
DOZENS OF HOSTAGES DYING IN CAPTIVITY.
THEY WERE TAKEN ALIVE FROM GAZA.
THEY WERE NOT RELEASED BECAUSE THE PREVIOUS CEASE-FIRE EXCHANGE EXPLODED IN THE MIDDLE, AND THEY DIED.
AND THEY COULD HAVE BEEN HOME IF THERE WAS A DEAL.
BUT IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT THAT.
THIS IS THE OPENING OF A NEW CHAPTER, A NEW PAGE IN THE MIDDLE EAST.
IT WILL ENABLE ISRAEL TO TRY TO HAVE SOME KIND OF POLITICAL SOLUTION IN THE NORTH.
IT WILL STOP HEZBOLLAH FROM FIRING TO ISRAEL.
IT WILL ENABLE MAYBE THE RECONCILIATION WITH SAUDI ARABIA AND THE RE-ESTABLISHMENT, THE REBUILDING OF ISRAEL.
IT WILL START RECONCILIATION AND THE INQUIRY PANEL, THESE ARE THE THINGS NETANYAHU IS AFRAID OF.
AND I THINK THAT THE ONLY -- THE ONLY POSSIBLE REAL PRESSURE THAT IS IMMINENT, THAT COULD HAPPEN IS THE UNITED STATES, IS THE ADMINISTRATION.
BUT THE ADMINISTRATION IN THE LAST FEW WEEKS SEEMED TO BE LOWERING THE TEMPERATURE.
WE SAW DIFFERENT SIGNS IN THE LAST TWO DAYS.
BUT BEFORE THAT WE SAW AN ADMINISTRATION THAT AN ISRAELI OFFICIAL WAS SURPRISED TO FIND VERY INCOHERENT IN COORDINATION WITH MR. NETANYAHU.
THEY THOUGHT THE ADMINISTRATION -- THE SECRETARY OF STATE WHEN HE CAME WOULD PUT PRESSURE.
IT DID NOT HAPPEN.
THEY SEE THAT IT'S CONNECTED TO THE ELECTIONS.
THE LAST TWO DAYS HAVE BROUGHT A DIFFERENT APPROACH WITH PRESIDENT BIDEN CRITICIZING PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU HARSHLY.
I THINK THE ISRAELI ADMINISTRATION, THE MILITARY, AND THE NEGOTIATORS ARE NOW WAITING FOR THE U.S. TO MAKE A MOVE AND TOGETHER WITH QATAR AND EGYPT PROPOSE A DEAL, TAKE IT OR LEAVE IT.
AND AS MUCH AS THEY HOPE QATAR AND EGYPT WILL PRESSURE HAMAS TO ACCEPT, I THINK THEY'RE HOPING, THE ISRAELI SENIORS ARE HOPING THE UNITED STATES WILL FORCE -- WILL PRESSURE MR. NETANYAHU TO ACCEPT.
>> WHAT DOES THAT PRESSURE LOOK LIKE?
I MEAN WHAT EXACT LEVERAGE DOES THE UNITED STATES HAVE EXCEPT FOR SAYING THIS IS THE FINAL TAKE IT OR LEAVE IT DEAL?
DO YOU THINK -- AND I KNOW YOU REFERENCED THE UPCOMING ELECTIONS, BUT DO YOU SEE A SCENARIO WHERE THERE COULD BE MORE WEAPONS THAT ARE WITHHELD?
YOU'VE SEEN WHAT IS MOSTLY DESCRIBED AS THE SYMBOLIC MOVE NOT NECESSARILY RELATED TO THE PAST FOUR OR FIVE DAYS OR NETANYAHU'S SPEECH FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM.
BUT COULD IT BE THOSE THREATS ALONG THOSE LINES, FROM AMERICA'S TOP ALLY THAT COULD FINALLY LIGHT A FIRE UNDER NETANYAHU, OR COULD IT ONLY INCREASE HIS POPULARITY AT HOME?
>> YEAH, YOU TAKE ME OUT OF MY AREA OF COMFORT.
I'M NOT TO ADVICE THE ADMINISTRATION, ALTHOUGH I UNDERSTAND THE ADMINISTRATION AND HAVE OTHER REPORTERS IN "THE NEW YORK TIMES" TO TALK ABOUT THAT.
BUT I THINK AS FAR AS UNDERSTAND AFTER THE -- OR DURING THE NETANYAHU VISIT, PRESIDENT BIDEN APPROVED ALL ISRAELI REQUESTS EXCEPT FOR A FEW OR ONE.
THE VAST MAJORITY FOR WEAPONS AND AMMUNITION WERE APPROVED.
AND I DON'T THINK IT'S A DECISION WE WILL WALK AWAY FROM.
BUT ISRAEL IS SO DEPENDENT ON THE U.S. AND I WOULD SAY SO ENTANGLED INTO THE U.S. SUPPORT.
THE U.S.
I THINK WILL HAVE THE NEED TO SHOW MR. NETANYAHU THIS CONFLICT -- IF THE EXISTING SITUATION WILL CONTINUE TO ENDANGER THE HOSTAGES.
WHAT THEY WILL DO I DON'T KNOW.
AS I SAID ISRAELI OFFICIALS ARE LOOKING AT CONCERN AT THE ADMINISTRATION FOR WHAT THEY BELIEVE TO BE STANDING DOWN AND DECIDING NOT TO HAVE A PUBLIC FORUM, A PUBLIC FIGHT WITH THE ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER?
>> YEAH, AND IT'S HARD TO SEE THIS PRESIDENT IN PARTICULAR JUST BACKING OUT OF THESE TALKS.
THERE ARE FOUR AMERICANS BELIEVED TO STILL BE HELD ALIVE IN GAZA AS WELL.
YOU MENTIONED THE OTHER POTENTIAL FRONTS.
OBVIOUSLY A LOT OF CONCERN ABOUT THE NORTH, AGAIN, HEZBOLLAH.
IRAN HAS YET TO RESPOND FOLLOWING THE ASSASSINATION OF ISMAIL HANIYEH, AND NOW WE'RE SEEING AN INCREASE IN VIOLENCE IN THE WEST BANK AS WELL.
JUST OVER THE LAST SEVERAL WEEKS WE'VE HAD THE PALESTINIAN OFFICIALS THERE SAYING THAT 33 PALESTINIANS HAVE BEEN KILLED IN THE LAST WEEK.
THERE HAVE BEEN MORE RAIDS, TWO CAR BOMBS, THREE ISRAELI POLICE OFFICERS WERE KILLED.
HOW MUCH OF A CONCERN IS WHAT'S HAPPENING IN THE WEST BANK RIGHT NOW IN POTENTIAL OF A THIRD FRONT OPENING UP IMMINENTLY?
>> IT DEPENDS WHO YOU ASK.
IF YOU ASK THE ISRAELI INTELLIGENCE OR THE DOMESTIC MILITARY OR THOSE COORDINATING THE OPERATION IN WEST BANK, THEY ARE VERY CONCERNED.
THEY BELIEVE THE WEST BANK IS ON THE BRINK OF AN EXPLOSION OF AN UPRISING.
THEY BELIEVE THAT THE ANGER, THE FRUSTRATION OF THE POPULATION OF WHAT HAS BEEN GOING ON SINCE THE NETANYAHU GOVERNMENT WAS SWORN IN ON THE BACKGROUND, OF COURSE, OF MANY, MANY YEARS OF OCCUPATION AND ESPECIALLY ON WHAT HAPPENED IN THE WEST BANK SINCE OCTOBER 7th.
DESCRIBED HOW THE POLICE IS NOW STANDING DOWN AND NOT HELPING MANY, MANY PALESTINIANS FROM BEING ATTACKED AND COMPROMISED BY EXTREME SETTLERS.
AND THIS IS JUST ONE -- ONE PART OF ACTIONS TAKEN OR NOT TAKEN BY THIS GOVERNMENT THAT AT LEAST SOME OF ITS MINISTERS SEEM TO BE THRIVING -- NOT CONCERNED LOOKING AT THE SITUATION.
BUT WHILE THE PEOPLE WHO ARE IN CHARGE OF THE SAFETY OF THE CITIZENS OF ISRAEL, THE MILITARY, THE INTELLIGENCE ARE SO CONCERNED, THEY ARE SENDING LETTERS AND THEY ARE ASKING THE PRIME MINISTER TO INTERVENE, SOME MINISTERS ARE SEEING THIS AS A CHANCE.
THEY WANT HAVOC.
THEY WANT UPRISING THAT WOULD FORCE THE ISRAELI MILITARY TO GO IN AND TAKE DOWN THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY, LEADING TO AN ANNEXATION OF THE WEST BANK.
THIS WOULD CHANGE THE FACE OF ISRAEL FOREVER AND ACCORDING TO THE CHIEF HE SAID IN A RECENT LETTER TO THE PRIME MINISTER.
>> AND SOMETHING YOU'VE REPORTED ON EXTENSIVELY AS WELL.
RONEN, I APOLOGIZE FOR TAKING YOU OUT OF YOUR COMFORT ZONE.
THERE ARE AS FEW AS PLUGGED IN TO DOMESTIC POLICIES THERE, AND WHAT THAT MEANS FROM A GEOPOLITICAL STANDPOINT AS WELL.
SO APPRECIATE YOU JOINING US.
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME, RONEN BERGMAN.
>> PLEASURE.
>>> AND NOW WE TURN TO DEMOCRACY IN THE UNITED STATES, WHICH OUR NEXT GUEST BELIEVES IS UNDER THREAT.
IN HIS NEW BOOK DAVID DALEY SUGGESTS FAR-RIGHT ACTORS INCLUDING WITHIN THE SUPREME COURT ARE CONTROLLING AMERICAN ELECTIONS.
HE DESCRIBES A 50-YEAR PLOT TO UNDERMINE VOTING RIGHTS.
HE JOINS HARI SREENIVASAN TO DISCUSS IMPLICATIONS.
THIS PART OF OUR DISCUSSION IS PART OF AN ONGOING INITIATIVE THAT REPORTS ON THREATS TO OUR DEMOCRACY, THE IMPACT ON CHANGES TO VOTING LAWS, AND WHAT CITIZENS NEED TO KNOW CALLED PRESERVING DEMOCRACY.
>> DAVID DALEY, THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.
YOUR MOST RECENT BOOK, "ANTIDEMOCRATIC" INSIDE THE FAR RIGHT'S 50-YEAR PLOT TO CONTROL AMERICAN ELECTIONS, I'VE GOT TO ASK, LOOK, WHEN SOMEONE READS 50-YEAR PLOT, THEY'RE GOING TO BE LIKE, OKAY, THIS IS TINFOIL MATERIAL -- TINFOIL HAT MATERIAL, A CONSPIRACY.
WHAT MAKES THIS NOT A CONSPIRACY IN YOUR MIND?
>> THIS HAS BEEN A VERY STRATEGIC EFFORT AT THE HEART OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY OVER THE LAST 50 YEARS.
THEY HAVE UNDERSTOOD I THINK MORE EFFECTIVELY THAN THE DEMOCRATS HAVE THAT THERE ARE PRESSURE POINTS WITHIN OUR DEMOCRACY, AND THAT IF YOU CAN PUT YOUR FINGER ON THEM, IF YOU CAN CONTROL THESE LITTLE LEVERS THAT SORT OF FLY UNDER THE RADAR WHETHER WE'RE TALKING ABOUT GERRYMANDERED STATE LEGISLATURES OR WHETHER WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE CONSTITUTION OF THE U.S. SUPREME COURT, THAT YOU ARE ABLE TO HAVE OUTSIZED INFLUENCE AND TO WIN VICTORIES THAT YOU NEVER COULD HAVE WON OTHERWISE.
IN MANY WAYS CHIEF JUSTICE JOHN ROBERTS IS THE MOST EFFECTIVE REPUBLICAN POLITICIAN OF HIS GENERATION BECAUSE BY CONTROLLING THE SUPREME COURT AS REPUBLICANS HAVE, THEY'VE BEEN ABLE THE LAST 20 YEARS TO WIN VICTORIES ON GUNS, ON VOTING RIGHTS, ON THE ENVIRONMENT, ON THE REGULATORY STATE THAT WOULD SIMPLY HAVE NOT BEEN POSSIBLE THROUGH THE ELECTORAL PROCESS AT THE BALLOT BOX.
>> WHAT MAKES HIM A POLITICIAN, HE AND LOTS OF MEMBERS OF OUR AUDIENCE WOULD SAY HOLD ON HE'S NOT ELECTED, HE'S A PRESIDENTIAL APPOINTEE.
I MEAN YOU GO BACK INTO HIS HISTORY AS A YOUNG LAWYER AT THE DOJ.
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
JOHN ROBERTS IN MANY WAYS HIS LIFE'S WORK HAS BEEN CURTAILING THE VOTING RIGHTS ACT.
JOHN ROBERTS GREW UP IN AN EXTRAORDINARILY WHITE TOWN IN INDIANA.
THIS WAS A TOWN THAT EVEN AFTER AMERICA BANNED DISCRIMINATION IN-HOUSING LAWS WAS STILL ADVERTISING ITSELF IN VACATION BROCHURES AS A HOME WHERE ONLY CAUCASIAN GENTILES LIVED.
HE CLERKS ON THE SUPREME COURT FOR BILL RENQUIST, WHERE IT'S BEEN DOCUMENTED DURING HIS DAYS IN ARIZONA WAS PERSONALLY HARASSING AND INTIMIDATING VOTERS BACK IN THE 1960s.
AND ROBERTS IN HIS FIRST JOB AT THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE, IT IS REALLY HIS JOB TO TRY AND DERAIL THE BIPARTISAN RE-AUTHORIZATION OF THE VOTING RIGHTS ACT WITH SIGNIFICANT CHANGES THAT WOULD HAVE ENHANCED IT AND MADE IT BETTER.
ROBERTS IN HIS MEMOS WRITES OVER AND OVER AGAIN IT SHOULD NOT BE TOO EASY TO PROVE A VOTING RIGHTS ACT VIOLATION.
HIS SIDE LOST THAT FIGHT BACK IN 1982, BUT ROBERTS WOULD HAVE THE LAST WORD ON THIS.
I THINK THE LESSON OF WHAT HAPPENED IN 1982 IN THAT FIRST DEFEAT FOR JOHN ROBERTS WAS THAT YOU COULD NEVER DERAIL SOMETHING AS AMERICAN AS THE VOTING RIGHTS ACT, SOMETHING AS AMERICAN AS MOTHERHOOD AND APPLE PIE AND JAZZ THROUGH THE ELECTORAL PROCESS.
BUT IT WOULD BE A WHOLE LOT EASIER TO DO THIS, YOU WOULD NOT NEED 218 IN THE HOUSE, 51 IN THE SENATE.
YOU'D NEED A SMALLER NUMBER OF FIVE ON THE U.S. SUPREME COURT.
AND HE WOULD BECOME ONE OF THEM 23 YEARS LATER.
>> OKAY, SO FAST FORWARD.
ONE OF HIS FIRST CASES AT THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE UNDER RONALD REAGAN IS ABOUT THE VOTING RIGHTS ACT.
AND THEN IN 2013 HE IS WRITING THE OPINION FOR A REALLY IMPORTANT DECISION, SHELBY COUNTY vs. HOLDER.
AND FOR PEOPLE WHO MIGHT NOT HAVE BEEN PAYING ATTENTION THERE'S A CONCEPT IN THERE CALLED PRECLEARANCE.
WHAT WAS IT?
WHY WAS IT SO IMPORTANT?
>> PRECLEARANCE IS SO IMPORTANT BECAUSE IT WAS THE -- IT WAS THE MUSCLE, IT WAS THE TEETH, IT WAS THE ENFORCEMENT MECHANISM WITHIN THE VOTING RIGHTS ACT.
PRIOR TO THE VOTING RIGHTS ACT OF 1965 THERE HAD BEEN MANY EFFORTS TO TRY AND BRING EQUALITY AND TO PUT AN END TO OUR RACIAL VOTING OPPRESSION ACROSS THE SOUTH AND OTHER PARTS OF THE COUNTRY.
NONE OF THEM REALLY WORKED.
IT TOOK TOO LONG TO CATCH THESE EFFORTS IN ALL THIS.
AND WHEN CONGRESS PASSED THE VOTING RIGHTS ACT IN 1965 AND WHEN IT RE-AUTHORIZED IT AGAIN IN 1982 AND 2006, IT INSISTED ON PRECLEARANCE THAT TOLD THESE LOCALITIES AND STATES THAT HAD THE WORST HISTORY, YOU'RE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO GET AWAY WITH THIS ANYMORE.
YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO RUN ANY CHANGE YOU WANT TO MAKE PAST THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE OR A COURT IN WASHINGTON, D.C. FIRST.
AND THIS, EFFECTIVELY, PUT AN END TO MUCH OF THOSE EFFORTS BECAUSE STATES WERE NOT ALLOWED TO DO THINGS WITHOUT PREAPPROVAL.
>> TELL ME WHY IS IT SO IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND THIS ATTACK THAT YOU SAY IS AN ATTACK ON THE VOTING RIGHTS ACT, YOU KNOW, IT'S BEEN A LONG PLAN.
WHY IS THAT CRUCIAL TO UNDERSTANDING NOT JUST THE POWER OF THE ATTACKER BUT THE CONSEQUENCES TO THE ATTACKED?
>> IN THIS DECISION JAUB ROBERTS SAYS THAT THINGS HAVE CHANGED IN THE SOUTH AND THAT THE PROTECTIONS OF THE VOTING RIGHTS ACT WERE NO LONGER NECESSARY, THAT WE LIVED IN A DIFFERENT COUNTRY, IT WAS NOT 1965 ANYMORE.
THE TROUBLE WITH THAT IS THAT THE ATTACK ON THE VOTE BEGAN THAT VERY MORNING, THAT STATES ACROSS THE SOUTH AND ELSEWHERE WERE WAITING FOR THIS DECISION AND IMMEDIATELY BEGAN IMPLEMENTING THINGS LIKE VOTER I.D.
PUSHES AND VOTER ROLL PURGES AND ROAD CLOSURES THAT THEY COULD NOT HAVE GOTTEN AWAY WITH PRIOR TO THE COURT'S DECISION.
SO WHEN ROBERTS SAID THINGS CHANGED IN THE SOUTH, ALL HE HAD TO DO WAS OPEN HIS EYES TO WHAT WAS HAPPENING BEFORE THE COURT'S DECISION AND IMMEDIATELY AFTERWARDS.
VERY LITTLE HAD ACTUALLY CHANGED IN THE SOUTH EXCEPT NOW THANKS TO THE COURT THESE DARK FORCES THAT THE DECISION IN SHELBY COUNTY UNLEASHED WERE ABLE TO GET AWAY WITH IT AGAIN.
>> GIVE ME AN EXAMPLE, THE FIRST FEDERAL ELECTION AFTER THAT DECISION WOULD HAVE BEEN HILLARY CLINTON VERSUS DONALD TRUMP.
WAS THERE AN IMPACT OF THE SHELBY DECISION ON THAT ELECTION?
>> YES.
I THINK THAT ABSOLUTELY WE CAN SEE THE IMPACT OF SHELBY COUNTY ACROSS AMERICAN ELECTIONS.
WE CAN SEE IT IN THE 2024 ELECTION RIGHT NOW.
SO MUCH OF THE ELECTION CHICANERY UNDER WAY IN THE STATE OF GEORGIA RIGHT NOW IN WHICH A STATE ELECTION BOARD IS ATTEMPTING TO CHANGE LAWS AROUND HOW ELECTIONS ARE CERTIFIED OR CREDENTIALED WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN POSSIBLE UNDER SHELBY COUNTY.
IT WOULD HAVE HAD TO BE PRE-CLEARED FIRST.
SO MANY STATE LEGISLATURES ACROSS THE SOUTH THAT ARE ENACTING THESE NEW LAWS, THOSE MAPS WOULD HAVE HAD TO HAVE BEEN PRE-CLEARED TO ENSURE THAT THEY WERE NOT RACIAL GERRYMANDERS.
SO IN STATES LIKE TEXAS, IN STATES LIKE GEORGIA WHERE THE POPULATION GROWTH HAS BEEN ALMOST ENTIRELY DRIVEN BY BLACK AMERICANS AND LATINOS, AND YET THEIR REPRESENTATION HAS NOT GONE UP.
IN FACT, IN MANY CASES IT HAS GONE BACKWARDS.
THAT WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN POSSIBLE -- THE COURT'S DECISION IN THE DOBBS CASE THAT EFFECTIVELY PUT AN END TO ABORTION IN MANY PARTS OF THE COUNTRY, IN THIS CASE THE JUSTICE WHO WROTE THE DECISION, SAMUEL ALITO, ENSURED AMERICANS THAT THE COURT WAS NOT TAKING AWAY A RIGHT, IT WAS SIMPLY RETURNING A CONTENTIOUS ISSUE TO THE PEOPLE IN THE ELECTORAL PROCESS.
EXCEPT THE COURT KNEW FULL WELL THAT THEY WERE RETURNING THIS ISSUE TO GERRYMANDERED, OFTENTIMES RACIALLY GERRYMANDERED STATE LEGISLATURES THAT THEY HAD ALLOWED TO BE RIGGED IN ADVANCE.
AND THE OUTCOMES WERE ENTIRELY PREDICTABLE, AND THE OUTCOMES WERE OPPOSED, OFTENTIMES DIAMETRICALLY OPPOSED TO THE WISHES OF THE PEOPLE OF THESE STATES.
AND YET VOTERS HAD LITTLE RECOURSE AT THE BALLOT BOX THANKS THE DECISIONS THE COURT HAD MADE OVER THE COURSE OF THE PREVIOUS DECADE.
IT'S AS IF THEY PLANNED IT THAT WAY.
>> WELL, IF SHELBY COUNTY'S DECISION, SHELBY COUNTY vs. HOLDER, THAT DECISION HAD AN IMPACT ON THE NEXT FEDERAL ELECTION, I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE ALSO WONDERING WHAT DOES THE RECENT SUPREME COURT DECISION ON PRESIDENTIAL IMMUNITY DO TO THE ELECTIONS THAT WE HAVE COMING UP?
>> IT'S A GREAT QUESTION AND A REALLY IMPORTANT ONE.
WHAT THE COURT DID IN THAT DECISION WAS EFFECTIVELY GIVE PRESIDENT TRUMP IMMUNITY FOR THE ACTIONS THAT WERE TAKEN ON JANUARY 6th AND THAT AMERICANS DESERVED TO HAVE SOME SENSE OF COMPLETION THERE BEFORE THIS NEXT PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION.
THERE WERE TRIALS UNDERWAY THAT WOULD HAVE GOTTEN AT THE HEART OF THE QUESTION AS TO WHETHER OR NOT A PRESIDENT ACTING IN WAYS THAT HELPED BLOCKED THE PEACEFUL TRANSFER OF POWER WOULD BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR THAT.
AND THIS COURT ENSURED THAT THAT VERDICT WOULD NOT COME UNTIL AFTER THIS PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION, WHICH I THINK IS -- IS VERY DANGEROUS.
WHAT THIS DOES IS WHEN YOU ADD THIS CASE TO THE LARGER PICTURE OF WHAT COURT HAS DONE ON QUESTIONS OF DEMOCRACY, CAMPAIGN FINANCE, AND VOTING RIGHTS OVER THE LAST 15 YEARS, THE ROBERTS COURT CONTINUOUSLY PUTS ITS THUMB ON THE SCALE TO THE ADVANTAGE OF THE REPUBLICAN POLITICIANS WHO PLACE THEM THERE.
NOW THE COURT LOOKS AT THE KINDS OF REFORMS THAT MANY HAVE OFFERED, AND THEY SAY THAT, WELL, THOSE REFORMS WOULD THREATEN THE COURT'S JUDICIAL INDEPENDENCE, WHICH TO I THINK MANY OF US FEELS A LITTLE BIT RICH THAT THE COURT HAS BROUGHT ON THIS CRISIS OF CREDIBILITY ITSELF THROUGH DECISION AFTER DECISION THAT HARMED VOTERS AND ADVANTAGED THEIR OWN IDEOLOGICAL SIDE.
>> I CAN HEAR CONSERVATIVES RIGHT NOW SAYING WHAT ARE YOU TALK ABOUT?
THE ROBERTS COURT IS THE ONE THAT UPHELD OBAMACARE.
IT MADE YOU HAVE SAME-SEX MARRIAGES THE LAW OF THE LAND.
AND YOU CAN KIND OF GO THROUGH A LIST OF OTHER IDEAS OF -- THEY UPHELD SECTION 2 OF THE VOTING RIGHTS ACT.
I MEAN, IS JOHN ROBERTS REALLY THIS KIND OF SINISTER CHARACTER THAT YOU PAINT HIM OUT TO BE?
>> YES.
WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE AMERICA THAT WE LIVED IN IN 2005, WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE AMERICA OF 2024, OUR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS HAVE BEEN DRAMATICALLY CHANGED, AND THERE'S BEEN A DRAMATIC SHIFT IN CONSTITUTIONAL LAW OVER THE PERIOD OF TIME.
ROE v. WADE SIMPLY NO LONGER EXISTS.
A QUESTION OF GUNS, CONSERVATIVE HECKLES IN THE NRA'S AGENDA HAS REALLY BEEN ALLOWED TO RUN ROUGHSHOD OVER ANY EFFORTS BY STATES AND LOCALITIES TO CONTROL THE SAFETY OF THEIR OWN CITIZENS.
WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE COURT'S DECISIONS ON THE REGULATORY STATE, WHAT WE HAVE SEEN IS A COURT THAT HAS PLACED ITSELF AGAIN AND AGAIN ABOVE THE CHECKS AND BALANCES OF -- OF OUR SYSTEM, WHICH IS SUPPOSED TO HAVE THREE COEQUAL BRANCHES.
THIS COURT HAS PLACED ITSELF ABOVE THE OTHER BRANCHES, AND THE AMERICAN PEOPLE SEE AND RECOGNIZE THIS.
THE COURT'S APPROVAL RATINGS ARE AT ALL-TIME LOWS.
HUGE MAJORITIES OF AMERICANS BACK THE IDEA OF ETHICS CODES, OFTENTIMES ABOUT 70% OF AMERICANS.
SO I THINK THAT THE COURT WOULD LIKE US TO THINK THAT THEY ARE SIMPLY NEUTRAL ARBITERS OF THE LAW, BUT WE DON'T HAVE TO CLOSE OUR EYES TO WHAT WE SEE.
THIS IS A COURT THAT IS UNELECTED, THAT MAKES ITS DECISIONS IN PRIVATE, THAT IS BOUND BY NO ETHICS CODE, THAT HAS LIFETIME APPOINTMENTS.
AND IT HAS BEHAVED IN WAYS THAT HAS TURNED ITSELF INTO A SUPER LEGISLATURE IN MANY WAYS.
AND ABRAHAM LINCOLN AT HIS FIRST INAUGURAL TALKED ABOUT HOW IF THE DECISIONS OF THE ENTIRE PEOPLE HAD TO BE FIXED BY THE SUPREME COURT, THE PEOPLE HAD CEASED TO BE THEIR OWN RULERS.
I THINK WE'RE DANGEROUSLY CLOSE TO EXPERIENCING THAT MOMENT.
>> PRESIDENT BIDEN RECENTLY CALLED FOR A BINDING ETHICS CODE AND EVEN TERM LIMITS FOR THE SUPREME COURT.
AND I'M WONDERING ARE THOSE PROPOSALS ENOUGH?
WHAT WOULD YOU SAY IS NECESSARY TO REFORM THE COURT?
>> I THINK THAT THE PACKAGES THAT HAVE BEEN PROPOSED SO FAR ARE A GOOD START, THAT THEY HAVE THE -- THE BACKING OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.
SOMETIMES PEOPLE LIKE TO SAY, OH, THIS IS TOO DIFFICULT, THAT THE ROAD HERE IS TOO LONG.
I THINK THAT'S NONSENSE BECAUSE I THINK THAT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE BACK THESE KINDS OF REFORMS, THAT THEY ALREADY SEE THIS COURT ACTING AS A POLITICAL BRANCH OF GOVERNMENT, AND THEY WOULD LIKE TO SEE IT REINED IN.
THE IDEA OF TERM LIMITS, OF -- OF GIVING EVERY JUSTICE 18 YEARS, THE IDEA OF GIVING EVERY PRESIDENT TWO SELECTIONS ONTO THE COURT, THE IDEA OF A BINDING ETHICS CODE, THAT WOULD TELL US WHO IS BUYING THESE JUSTICES HOUSES THAT BELONG TO MEMBERS OF THEIR FAMILY, WHO IS SENDING THEM ON VACATIONS, WHO IS SENDING THEM ON SUPER YACHTS?
WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR LAVISH LIFESTYLES?
AND DO THEY HAVE INTERESTS BEFORE THE COURT?
THOSE SEEM TO ME TO BE ENTIRELY FAIR QUESTIONS.
BUT I DO THINK WE ALSO ARE GOING TO HAVE TO GET TO THE POINT OF TALKING ABOUT A LARGER COURT, ABOUT EXPANDING THE NUMBERS AND ABOUT SHRINKING ITS JURISDICTION AND THE NUMBER OF -- AND THE AREAS IN WHICH IT IS ABLE TO RULE.
WHEN YOU HAVE AN UNELECTED COURT THAT IS REPUDIATING THE ELECTED BRANCHES, THE ELECTED BRANCHES HAS THE RESPONSIBILITY TO REIN IT IN.
AND TO DO NOT DO SO, WOULD BE ALLOWING THE COURT TO PUT ITSELF ABOVE ALL THE OTHER BRANCHES.
>> IF PRESIDENT TRUMP WINS ANOTHER TERM, WHAT DO YOU SEE AS THE FUTURE OF THE SUPREME COURT?
>> WELL, I THINK THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP ALREADY IN HIS FIRST TERM WAS ABLE TO PUT THREE JUSTICES ON THE COURT, AND WE'VE SEEN THE DIRECTION WHICH THAT HAS GONE.
DEMOCRATS HAVE A NUMBER OF JUSTICES ON THE COURT WHO ARE PROBABLY APPROACHING RETIREMENT AGE, WHOSE HEALTH IS KNOWN TO NOT BE IN THE BEST SHAPE.
IT IS ENTIRELY POSSIBLE THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP IN ANOTHER TERM WOULD HAVE THE ABILITY TO ADD ANOTHER JUSTICE ONTO THE COURT.
IT'S POSSIBLE THAT, YOU KNOW, SEVERAL MEMBERS OF THE CURRENT CONSERVATIVE SUPER MAJORITY COULD RETIRE AND THAT TRUMP WOULD BE ABLE TO REPLACE THEM WITH YOUNGER, MORE EXTREME VERSIONS OF THEMSELVES.
RIGHT NOW THE CURRENT CONSERVATIVE SUPER MAJORITY IS PROBABLY LOCKED IN PLACE AS FAR AS THE 2050s, SOME POLITICAL SCIENTISTS SAY, WHICH IS WELL PAST OUR LIFETIMES PERHAPS AND DEEP INTO OUR CHILDREN'S LIFETIME.
A SECOND TERM BY PRESIDENT TRUMP WOULD PROBABLY PUSH THAT DATE EVEN FURTHER INTO THE FUTURE.
>> HIS MOST RECENT BACK IS CALLED "ANTIDEMOCRATIC".
DAVID DALEY, THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.
>> MY PLEASURE.
THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.
>> THAT DOES IT FOR US FOR NOW.
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR WATCHING, AND GOOD-BYE FROM NEW YORK.
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