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> HELLO, EVERYONE.
AND WELCOME TO 'AMANPOUR AND COMPANY.'
HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.
> IF YOU DRIVE AROUND QUEENS, IT LOOKS LIKE A BOMB WENT OFF.
PRESIDENT BIDEN COMES FACE TO FACE WITH FALL-OUT FROM HURRICANE IDA, AND I TALK TO THE POLITICIAN WHO PUT CLIMATE CENTER OF THE NATIONAL STAGE DECADES AGO.
FORMER CALIFORNIA GOVERNOR JERRY BROWN.
AND --
ON SEPTEMBER 5th, 2017, WHITNEY DUAN DISAPPEARED WITHOUT TRACE FROM THE STREETS OF BEIJING.
THE UNBELIEVABLE STORY OF WHITNEY DUWAN AND WHERE POLITICS AND BUSINESS COLLIDE IN CHINA.
HER FORMER HUSBAND JOINS US WITH A BOOK HE SAYS BEIJING DOES NOT WANT YOU TO READ.
THEN --
HOW BRAZILS PRESIDENT IS SEWING DOUBT ON THE ELECTION.
THIS IS AN ABUSE OF THE JUDICIARY.
BY THE WAY, IT IS AN INSULT.
WE TALK TO MICHELLE MARTIN ABOUT TEXAS AND THE SUPREME COURT RESHAPING AMERICA.
♪♪♪
> 'AMANPOUR & COMPANY' IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III.
CANDACE KING WEIR.
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THE ANDERSON FAMILY FUND.
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JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.
BERNARD AND DENISE SCHWARTZ.
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ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.
THANK YOU.
> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM EVERYONE.
I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.
PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN IS TOUCHED DOWN IN NEW YORK AND NEW JERSEY TODAY TO SEE FIRST HAND JUST HOW HURRICANE IDA CAUSED MORE HAY MAYHEM AND DAMAGE AND DEATH THERE THAN IT DID WHEN IT ACTUALLY MADE LAND FALL IN LOUISIANA DAYS EARLIER.
MORE THAN 60 PEOPLE DIED IN THE STORM THAT BROUGHT UNPRECEDENTED RAINFALL AND EXTREME FLOODING FROM THE SOUTH ALL THE WAY UP TO THE NORTHEAST.
PRESIDENT BIDEN SAYS WE ARE ALL IN A RACE AGAINST THE CLOCK.
FOR DECADES, SCIENTISTS HAVE WARNED OF EXTREME WEATHER, WOULD BE MORE EXTREME AND CLIMATE CHANGE WAS HERE AND WE'RE LIVING THROUGH IT NOW.
WE DON'T HAVE ANYMORE TIME.
THIS AS OVER ON THE WEST COAST, THE DIXIE FIRE IS ON VERGE OF BECOMING THE LARGEST WILD FIRE IN CALIFORNIA'S HISTORY.
NEARLY ONE IN THREE AMERICANS LIVE IN A COUNTY THAT'S BEEN HIT BY A WEATHER DISASTER IN THE LAST THREE MONTHS.
THAT SHOCKING STATISTIC IS FROM A NEW 'WASHINGTON POST' ANALYSIS.
AS MORE AND MORE PEOPLE ARE IMPACTED DIRECTLY BY THE CONSEQUENCES OF CLIMATE CHANGE, EVEN THE FORMER HEAD OF FEMA IS ASKING WHETHER THE COUNTRY IS FINALLY HEADED TOWARDS A PROPER TIPPING POINT.
AND IF NOT NOW, WHEN AND WHAT WILL IT TAKE?
SO WHEN HE WAS GOVERNOR OF CALIFORNIA, JERRY BROWN WAS ONE OF THE FIRST AMERICAN POLITICIANS TO MAKE CLIMATE AN ISSUE.
HE CHAIRS THE CALIFORNIA CLIMATE INSTITUTE AT UC BERKELEY NOW AND JOINS ME FROM WILLIAMS IN THE NORTHERN PART OF THE STATE.
GOVERNOR BROWN WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.
SO LET ME JUST ASK YOU TO FOLLOW UP ON WHAT THE FORMER FEMA ADMINISTRATOR SAID.
GIVEN THAT SHOCKING ANALYSIS FROM THE 'WASHINGTON POST' THAT SO MANY AMERICANS ARE NOW FACE-TO-FACE WITH CLIMATE CHANGE AND ITS EFFECTS.
DO YOU THINK, YOU KNOW, AS A SEASONED POLITICIAN THAT WE'RE ON THE WAY TO A TIPPING POINT THAT WILL AFFECT POLITICS IN WASHINGTON?
NO.
I WOULDN'T SAY WE'RE AT A TIPPING POINT YET.
I FORESEE ARRIVING AT ONE.
BUT BECAUSE OF THE DEEP DEPENDENCE ON OIL, GAS AND COAL FOR OUR WHOLE CIVILIZATION OR OUR CLOTHES, OUR CARS, OUR HOUSE, OUR WHOLE EXISTENCE HAD BEEN DEPENDENT AND FUELED BY OIL, GAS AND COAL.
AND NOW WE'RE BEING TOLD, AND IT IS TRUE, WE'VE GOT TO GET OFF OF IT.
WELL, THAT IS GOING TO TAKE HEROIC EFFORT SUSTAINED OVER DECADES.
SO IN FACE OF ALL THAT, POLITICIANS ARE GOING TO RESPOND TO THE IMMEDIATE.
THEY ARE NOT GOING TO LOSE JOBS.
THEY ARE NOT GOING TO RAISE TAXES.
THEY ARE NOT GOING TO EMBARK ON ANYTHING TOO BOLD YET.
SO I THINK WE'RE GOING TO HAVE STOPS AND STARTS.
WE'RE GOING TO HAVE FAILURES.
WE'RE MOVING SLOWLY IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION BUT NEITHER CHINA NOR THE UNITED STATES NOR THE REST OF THE WORLD HAS YET GRASPED THE FULL MAGNITUDE OF WHAT THE WORLD IS NOW FACING.
WHEN YOU LIE AWAKE AT NIGHT, THINKING, WHAT DO YOU THINK IT WILL TAKE, IF ANYTHING, FOR A TIPPING POINT TO BE REACHED REGARDING THIS DEPENDS ON FOSSIL FUEL?
WELL, WE ARE MOVING IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION CONCEPTUALLY.
PEOPLE'S IDEAS IN LEADERSHIP POSITIONS.
EIGHT YEARS AGO THERE IS VIRTUALLY NO COVERAGE ON MASS MEDIA OF CLIMATE CHANGE.
NOW IT IS ALL OVER.
WITH THE FLOODS, HURRICANES AND FIRES IN CALIFORNIA AND IN OTHER PLACES IN THE WORLD.
SO WE'RE WAKING UP.
BUT IT IS GOING THE TAKE MORE, I'M AFRAID, I'M NOT ADVOCATING.
I'M JUST TELLING YOU.
IT IS GOING TO TAKE MORE DISASTERS, MORE POLITICAL DEADLOCK AND MORE DEBATES AND MORE RHETORIC BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES AND CHINA UNTIL FINALLY THESE BIG NATIONS AND THESE BIG LEADERS START COLLABORATING, COOPERATING AT THE LEVEL THEY SHOULD.
THE FIRST TEST WILL BE IN SCOTLAND AT THE CONFERENCE OF THE PARTIES.
CAN CHINA AND UNITED STATES AND EUROPE AND INDIA REALLY DO RIGHT THING?
OR ARE WE GONNA HAVE TO SPEND ANOTHER YEAR WAITING TO GET THE MESSAGE?
I THINK IT IS VERY MUCH UP IN THE AIR.
I KNOW PRESIDENT BIDEN IS TRYING VERY HARD.
PRESIDENT XI HAS SET SOME AMBITIOUS GOALS.
BUT IT IS NOT ENOUGH.
IT IS NOT FAST ENOUGH.
SO WE'RE GOING TO HAVE MORE FIRES.
MORE FLOODS.
MORE DISASTERS THAN YOU WILL BE ABLE TO COVER, UNFORTUNATELY.
SO I'M GOING TO GET MORE INTO CHINA IN A MOMENT.
BUT FIRST I WANT TO ASK YOU BECAUSE YOU TALKED ABOUT LEADERSHIP AND YOU TALKED AB WASHINGTON.
SO LET ME JUST ASK YOU DIRECTLY.
YOU KNOW, IT LOOKED FOR A WHILE THAT THE PRESIDENT WAS GOING TO GET THE BIG SORT OF SPENDING BILL, $3.5 BILLION SPENDING BILL AIMING TO INVEST IN CLIMATE POLICY AND SOCIAL PROGRAMS BUT RECENTLY SENATOR JOE MANCHIN FROM WEST VIRGINIA CALLED ON THE PARTY TO TAKE A STRATEGIC PAUSE.
AND THAT PUT THIS IS BILL IN DANGER.
OTHERS ARE POINTING OUT THAT OF INTEREST.
HE'S HUGE AMOUNT OF STOCK IN PRIVATE COAL BROKERAGE COMPANY ENERGY SYSTEMS THAT HE CO-FOUNDED AND HIS SON STILL RUNS.
IS THAT A PROBLEM?
IS HIS POLITICS AND HIS BASE A PROBLEM?
HOW WORRIED ARE YOU THAT THIS SENATOR IS NOW HOLDING UP SOMETHING THAT LOOKED LIKE IT WAS GOING TO GO THROUGH.
YES, THIS IS A PROBLEM.
AND IF JOE MANCHIN DOESN'T VOTE FOR -- FOR MOST OF THIS PROPOSAL OF BIDEN, AS THE PROBLEM, BIG PROBLEM.
BUT WE'RE FACING RESISTANCE NOT JUST FROM A DEMOCRATIC FROM WEST VIRGINIA OR SOME OTHER STATE WITH LOT OF COAL.
WE'RE FACING MOST IF NOT ALL OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY WANTING BIDEN TO FAIL AND NOT TAKING SERIOUSLY WHAT IT TAKES TO CURB CARBON EMISSIONS.
AND BY THE WAY THE CHINESE ARE BUILDING HUGE NUMBERS OF COAL PLANTS.
SO TO BE FAIR, THE WORLD IS STILL SLEEPY WHEN IT COMES TO THE FACTS.
AND THE TRUTH OF THE MATTER IS, WE HAVE TWO BIG ASSIGNMENTS.
NUMBER ONE, WE HAVE TO ADAPT.
WE HAVE TO BUILD PROTECTION FROM FLOODS.
WE'VE GOT TO DEAL WITH THE FORESTS AND THE FIRES.
WE HAVE ALL SORT OF THINGS TO DO JUST TO PROTECT OURSELVES FROM THE BAD WEATHER THAT IS GOING TO GET WORSE OVER THE NEXT FEW DECADES.
AT THE SAME TIME WE HAVE TO REDUCE OUR CARBON EMISSIONS BY GOING TO RENEWABLE ENERGY.
BOTH THOSE WILL CAUSE TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS AND WILL DEMAND A LEVEL OF POLITICAL INSIGHT, COURAGE AND AGREEMENT THAT DOES NOT EXIST AS FAR AS I CAN SEE IN WASHINGTON OR BEIJING OR MOSCOW OR NEW DELHI OR A NUMBER OF OTHER PLACES WHERE IT MUST BE REALIZED IN A VERY, VERY DEEP WAY IN ORDER TO MOVE FORWARD.
SO GOVERNOR, YOU KNOW, YOU ARE OBVIOUSLY VERY VERY CLOSELY CONNECTED TO THE CHINA ISSUE.
YOU HAVE MET AND SAT ACROSS THE TABLE AND NEGOTIATED WITH, YOU KNOW, THE CHINESE COMMUNIST PARTY LEADER XI JINPING HIMSELF AND PROBABLY OBVIOUSLY BEEN LOOKING AT SOME OF -- I DON'T KNOW WHAT CALL IT, BUT SORT OF, 'BAD BLOOD' GOING ON NOW BETWEEN SENATOR KERRY AND HIS CHINESE COUNTERPART TRYING TO NEGOTIATE ON ALL THIS.
AND THE FOREIGN MINISTER SAID EARLIER, THE U.S. SIDE HOPES THAT CLIMATE COOPERATION CAN BE AN OASIS IN CHINA/U.S.
RELATIONS.
BUT IF THAT OASIS IS SURROUNDED BY DESERT, IT WILL ALSO BECOME DESERTFIED SOONER OR LATER.
SO OBVIOUSLY THEY DON'T LIKE THE FACT THAT U.S. TALKS TO THEM ABOUT HUMAN RIGHTS, ABOUT INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY, ABOUT ALL THE THINGS THAT THE U.S. HAS AN ISSUE.
AND SO WHAT DO YOU THINK IS GOING TO COME OUT OF THE NEGOTIATIONS WITH CHINA?
IT DOESN'T LOOK VERY GOOD RIGHT NOW.
NO.
IT DOESN'T LOOK GOOD.
BUT CHINESE AND AMERICAN LEADERS, THEY ARE SMART.
THEY KNOW WHAT THE WORLD IS.
AND CHINA AND THE U.S. MUST COOPERATE OR THEY ARE HEADED TO A DISASTROUS CONFLICT OF VARIOUS -- MANY CONFLICTS AND MAYBE THE ULTIMATE CONFLICT.
SO I THINK THEY ARE GOING TO PULL BACK.
ONE PROBLEM I SEE, CHINA IS DOING A LOT OF STUFF WE DON'T LIKE.
BUT I DON'T SEE HOW YOU CAN HAVE A DIALOGUE A NEGOTIATION WHERE THE U.S. SIDE ALWAYS SAYS, LOOK, ME GOOD, YOU BAD.
YOU GOT THAT CHINA?
UNTIL YOU ACCEPT ALL YOUR BAD AND ALL OUR GOOD WEAR NOT GOING TO GET ANYWHERE.
I THINK WE NEED A TOUCH, MAYBE MORE THAN A TOUCH OF HUMILITY.
WE DIDN'T LOOK SO GOOD OR WE'RE NOT SO GOOD, IN FACT TERRIBLE, IN AFGHANISTAN, THE IRAQ WAR, ALL SORT OF THINGS.
NOW I'M NOT SAYING, YOU KNOW, I'M NOT GOING TO PICK AMERICA BETTER, CHINA WORSE.
WE GOT TO REALIZE WE'RE ON ONE EARTH.
WE HAVE ONE CLIMATE.
WE ARE EMITTING HEAT-TRAPPING GASES THAT ARE GOING TO DESTROY MILLIONS OF PEOPLE.
WE'VE GOT TO GET OFF THESE LESSER ISSUES HOWEVER BIG AND IMPORTANT THEY SEEM.
WE HAVE TO FIND A WAY IN WHAT I CALL CLIMATERY REALISM.
WE BOTH INHERIT THIS EARTH.
AND I WOULD INVOKE JOHN KENNEDY AND HIS AMERICAN UNIVERSITY SPEECH IN JUNE 1963 WHERE HE SAID TO THE RUSSIAN T SOVIETS, 'WE INHERIT THE SAME PLANET.
BREATHE THE SAME AIR.
WE WANT OUR GRANDCHILDREN TO HAVE A LIGHT.
WE'RE BOTH MORTAL.'
THAT IS THE WAY WE HAVE TO TALK TO CHINA AND FIND COMMON PATHWAYS.
TODAY I WOULD SAY THERE IS A DISINCLINATION FOR THAT AND MOST OF THE POLITICS IN WASHINGTON ARE HIGHLY AGGRESSIVE AND I WOULD SAY, COUNTERPRODUCTIVE.
SO I JUST WANT TO PURSUE A COUPLE OF POINT THERE IS.
ME GOOD, YOU BAD.
YOU POINT IT AND OTHERS THAT CHINA IS COMMITTED TO MORE COAL-FIRED PLANTS AND THAT IS GOING TO BE A PROBLEM.
BUT AT THE SAME TIME, TO BOLSTER YOUR POINT, THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION HAS JUST, YOU KNOW -- HAS JUST ANNOUNCED PLANS TO OPEN UP MILLIONS OF ACRES FOR OIL AND GAS EXPLORATION.
AND THAT'S OF COURSE COMPLYING WITH A COURT ORDER THAT WOULD REQUIRE IS IT ADMINISTRATION TO RESUME THESE THINGS.
SO IT IS CLEARLY A POINT OF HUGE CRITICISM IN THE CLIMATE AND ENVIRONMENTAL COMMUNITY.
BUT IT MEANS, DOESN'T IT, AS YOU SAY THAT THE U.S. DOESN'T HAVE A HUGE LEG TO STAND ON WHEN IT IS TRYING TO PERSUADE CHINA OR INDIA.
LOOK, CALIFORNIA ITSELF IS BURNING 18 BILLION GALLONS OF DIESEL AND GASOLINE EVERY YEAR.
WE, OUR CARS DRIVE 250 BILLION MILES A YEAR.
WE GOT A LOT TO ACCOUNT FOR AND A LOT TO CHANGE AS DOES CHINA.
I THINK CHINA AND THE U.S. NEED EACH OTHER TO PUSH EACH OTHER IN THE RIGHT PATH.
BECAUSE WE HAVE ENORMOUS RESISTANCE.
AND I THINK THE COAL INTEREST WITHIN THE COMMUNIST PARTY WITHIN CHINA ARE ALSO AS POWERFUL AS THE OIL AND GAS INTERESTS ARE IN TEXAS AND THE REST OF AMERICA.
SO LOOK, THE WORLD NEEDS A TURN, BY AMERICA AND BY CHINA.
WE HAVE -- LOOK, IN WORLD WAR II, I REMEMBER, AND YOU CERTAINLY DO, THE PICTURES OF CHURCHILL, ROOSEVELT AND STALIN.
STALIN WAS DOING MANY MORE HORRIBLE THINGS THAN CHINA IS DOINK TODAY.
BUT THE COMMON ENEMY BROUGHT THEM TOGETHER.
WE HAVE A COMMON THREAT CALLED DETERIORATING CLIMATE.
AND BECAUSE WE HAVE A COMMON THREAT, WE HAVE A COMMON INTEREST.
COMMON VULNERABILITY TRANSLATES INTO COMMON INTEREST IF YOU JUST OPEN YOUR EYES.
SO THAT IS WHERE I DERIVE SOME OPTIMISM.
THAT WHATEVER THE PULLING AND SHOVING IS NOW, WE ARE GOING TO DRAW CLOSER.
BUT HOW LONG IT TAKES AND HOW MANY CASUALTIES ALONG THE WAY, THAT REMAINS TO BE SEEN.
SO LET ME ASK YOU THEN ON THIS.
BECAUSE CLEARLY YOU HAD BROUGHT UP EARLIER THAT ALL THIS EFFORT TO DISTANCE ONE SELF FROM DEPENDENCE ON FOSSIL FUELS WILL COST MONEY, ETC.
BUT THE EXPERTS AND YOU YOURSELF I'M SURE KNOW IT WILL COST A HUGE AMOUNT MORE MONEY NOT TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT AND TRY TO DO CLEANUP LATER.
YOUR STATE, THE FIFTY BIGGEST ECONOMY IN THE WORLD, ESPECIALLY UNDER YOUR LEADERSHIP SPENT A LOT OF TIME THINKING ABOUT THESE BIG ISSUES.
YOU WENT AND SPOKE SPECIFICALLY TO XI JINPING.
AND YOU PUT CLIMATE WELL FRONT AND CENTER.
YOUR SUCCESSOR, GAVIN NEWSOM, THE GOVERNOR, HAS ALSO DONE THE SAME AND HE'S NOW FACING A RECALL.
AND YOU HAVE SAID HE MUSTN'T BE FOR THE SAKE OF THE PLANET AND CLIMATE.
DO YOU THINK HE'LL BE RECALLED?
AND IF HE IS --
NO.
-- HOW NEGATIVE IS THAT FOR YOUR ISSUE?
OH IT WOULD BE VERY NEGATIVE.
I DON'T THINK GAVIN NEWSOM WILL BE RECALLED.
HE'S PUTTING ON GOOD CAMPAIGN.
AND THE POLITICS OF CALIFORNIA, WHATEVER CRITICISM AGAINST THE GOVERNOR THERE IS BASIC WIDESPREAD SUPPORT THAT WILL ENABLE HIM TO DEFEAT THIS MISGUIDED IDEA THAT YOU HAVE TO HAVE IS A RECALL THE YEAR BEFORE A REGULAR ELECTION.
SO I THINK PEOPLE ARE NOT GOING THE BUY IT IN CALIFORNIA.
CAN I JUST BROADEN A LITTLE BIT.
I'M SURE YOU HAVE BEEN FOLLOWING, YOU KNOW, THE ISSUES OF THE SUPREME COURT AND WHETHER IT IS ABOUT VOTING, WHETHER IT IS ABOUT WOMEN'S RIGHTS.
THE ISSUE OF THE TEXAS STATE TEST CASE, BANNING A WOMAN'S RIGHT TO CHOOSE.
AND EMPOWERING ACCORDING TO SOME EXPERTS A SENSE OF NEW VIGILANTISM ON THE STREETS GOING AFTER ANYBODY WHO MAY BE INVOLVED IN TEXAS.
LET ME READ WHAT JOHN MILES AND DAVID KNOLL, TWO PROFESSORS FROM UCLA AND RUTGERS HAVE SAID.
UP UNTIL NEW THE LAW USUALLY CONFERRED RIGHT ON PEOPLE SEEKING TO EXERCISE PERSONAL AUTONOMY OVER THEIR BODIES, WORDS OR VOTE.
THE NEW BREED OF PRIVATE ENFORCEMENT LAWS INVERTS THAT PARDEM DIVING RIGHTS TO PEOPLE WHO ARE MERELIED ON BY WHAT THEY SEE, HEAR OR IMAGINE?
WHERE DO YOU SEE THIS?
WHAT THIS IS, THE TEXAS LAW IS A BOUNTY HUNTER PROVISION.
IT GIVES 10,000 DOLLAR REWARD FOR ANYBODY WHO CAN FILE A LAWSUIT, BE SUCCESSFUL AGAINST NOT ONLY A DOCTOR WHO PERFORMANCE AN ABORTION BUT ANYBODY WHO GIVES A RIDE OR HELPS IN ANY WAY TO BRING THE WOMAN TO THE ABORTION CLINIC.
THIS IS EXPLOITING THE POLARIZATION AND DEEP FEELINGS IT IS NOT THE WAY TO GO.
WE'RE A DIVIDED SOCIETY.
IN A VERY DANGEROUS WORLD.
WE HAVE TO FIND HIGHER UNITIES AND TO EMPOWER RANDOM DISCONNECTED INDIVIDUALS TO JUMP INTO LAWSUITS AGAINST PEOPLE WHO ARE TRYING TO HELP A WOMAN FOLLOW HER CONSCIENCE WHO SHE WANTS TO DO.
IT IS CRAZY, IT IS POLITICALLY DIVISIVE AND I THINK IT IS GOING TO GALVANIZE THE POLITICAL OPPOSITION AND PUNISH THE BENEFIT OF MORE SENSIBLE THINKING.
EVEN THE CHIEF, ROBERTS, DISSENTED.
SO I THINK THERE IS MORE TO BE HAD.
AND THE LIKE IN POLITICS YOU OFTEN SEE YOU.
DON'T CHANGE UNTIL YOU OVERREACH.
THIS IS CLEARLY AN OVERREACH.
AND I WOULD SUSPECT A CHANGE WILL BE VERY QUICKLY IN COMING.
GET YOUR PERSPECTIVE ON THAT AND ALSO THE CLIMATE CHALLENGES AND CHALLENGES WITH CHINA AHEAD.
> WE'RE GOING TO GO NOW TO THE CHINA AND A WOMAN'S DISAPPEARANCE FOUR YEARS AGO.
BRITTANY DUWAUN AND HER THEN HUSBAND WERE RISING STARS IN CHINA'S BUSINESS WORLD BUT AFTER HER HUSBAND LEFT THE COUNTRY, DUWAUN DISAPPEARED WITHOUT A TRACE.
NOBODY HAD HEARD A WORD FROM HER FOR YEARS UNTIL SATURDAY.
ACCORDING TO SHUM SHE CALLED TO HIM AND PLEADED HE NOT PUBLISH HIS NEW BOOK, ONE THAT PROMISES TO PULL BACK THE CURTAIN ON XI JINPING'S CHINA.
THE CALL WAS TOO LATE OF COURSE.
THE BOOK HAD ALREADY BEEN PRINTED.
ITS TITLE, 'RED RULER.'
AND JOINING ME NOW FOR HIS FIRST TELEVISION INTERVIEW.
DESMOND SHUM.
CALL YOU MUST GOT OVER THE WEEKEND MUST HAVE BEEN PARTICULARLY UNSETTLING.
PARTICULARLY AS GETTING READY TO DO THE PUBLICITY FOR YOUR BOOK PUBLICATION.
WHY SUDDENLY DID YOUR FORMER WIFE AFTER FOUR YEARS APPEAR OUT OF NOWHERE?
FIRST OF ALL, THANKS FOR HAVING ME.
I THINK WHAT HAPPENED WAS ON FRIDAY, TWO MAJOR NEWSPAPER, 'FINANCIAL TIMES' AND 'WALL STREET JOURNAL' BOTH CARRY STORY OF UPCOMING BOOK.
AND CREATED THE DYNAMICS AND ALLOWED THE CCP TO ALLOW HER TO COME OUT.
HAPPENED JUST THE DAY AFTER THE TWO NEWSPAPER BROKE THE STORIES.
SO WHAT WAS HER MESSAGE TO YOU?
SHE DIDN'T JUST CALL TO SAY HI, CCP WEREN'T APPARENTLY THRILL THAT, YOU KNOW, HER FORMER HUSBAND IS ABOUT TO PUBLISH A BOOK THAT HE SAYS IS VERY REVEALING IN A WAY THEY MIGHT NOT LIKE.
SHE USE, UMM, YOU KNOW, IT IS VERY DIFFICULT.
SHE WANT ME -- FIRST OF ALL SHE WANT ME TO CANCEL THE BOOK, FOR PUBLISHING.
OF COURSE AS YOU WERE JUST MENTIONING, YOU KNOW, BUREAUCRATS IN BEIJING PROBABLY THINK AT SNAP OF FINGER ANY BOOK CAN PULLED FROM ANY BOOK STORES AT ANY TIME.
OF COURSE IN IN OUR WORLD THE BOOK IS ALREADY IN THE BOOK STORES BY THEN.
AND ALSO WAS DIFFICULT FOR ME BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW, YOU KNOW, I DON'T KNOW WHO I'M TALKING TO.
BECAUSE FOR SURE HER PHONE IS MONITORED.
IF NOT SOMEBODY SITTING ACROSS FROM HER.
AND AM I TALKING TO HER?
OR AM I TALKING TO THE PARTIES BEHIND LISTENING IN?
SAYING TO CANCEL BOOK AND ISSUING ALL THREATS.
SO THE THREATS ARE WHAT I GUESS INTEREST ME AND INTEREST MANY PEOPLE AND CLEARLY MUST WORRY YOU, YOUR SON AND YOUR FORMER WIFE.
DID YOU FEEL THAT SHE WAS BEING USED TO THREATEN YOU?
DID SHE SAY THAT THERE WOULD BE CONSEQUENCES FOR YOU, HER, FOR YOUR SON, IF THIS BOOK WENT AHEAD?
OH DEFINITELY.
I MEAN, I DO FEEL LIKE THAT SHE IS BEING A MOUTH PIECE OF THE PARTY STATE THREATENING ME.
MESSAGE WERE -- SHE ASKED THE QUESTION, 'WHAT WOULD HAPPEN TO OUR SON IF SOMETHING HAPPENED TO YOU?'
SHE ASKED THE QUESTION, 'WHAT WOULD HAPPEN -- HOW WOULD YOU FEEL IF SOMETHING HAPPENED TO OUR SON?
AND ON THE SECOND CALL ACTUALLY SAY IF YOU GO AHEAD WITH THIS BOOK LAUNCH, IT MAY COST LIFE.
SO I RAISED THE QUESTION -- IS IT MY LIFE --
-- REALLY CHILLING -- THAT'S A VALID QUESTION.
WHOSE LIFE IS IT?
IT IS CHILLING.
AND I GUESS THE QUESTION HAS TO BE, FROM THOSE OF US LISTENING TO YOU, WHAT IS SO IMPORTANT ABOUT YOUR COMMITMENT TO THE STORY THAT YOU WANT TO GET OUT?
'RED ROULETTE' IS THE NAME OF YOUR BOOK.
THAT YOU ARE PREPARED DESPITE CLEAR THREATS.
WHAT IS IT STORY YOU WANT THE WORLD TO KNOW?
I THINK THE WORLD, FIRST WHY DO I WANT TO GO AHEAD AND PUBLISH THE BOOK?
TWO THINGS PROMPT ME TO PUBLISH IT.
I FIRST STARTED BOOK WITH NOT PLANNING TO PUBLISH.
I START ON THE BOOK BECAUSE THE MOM OF MY SON HAS BEEN DISAPPEARED.
AND THEN YEAR AFTER, WHICH IS FOUR YEARS AGO ALMOST TO THE DATE.
SO I START WRITING THE BOOK SAYING I WANT TO LEAVE SOMETHING FOR MY SON TELLING THEM TELLING HIM WHO WE ARE, WHAT WE'VE DONE AND I BELIEVE NOTHING TO BE ASHAMED OF WHAT WE HAVE DONE IN CHINA.
WHAT EMPOWER ME TO GO AHEAD AND PUBLISH THE BOOK IS BECAUSE AS TIME GOES ON SHE'LL DISAPPEAR FOR, YOU KNOW, IT WAS NEW YEAR'S AROUND AND SAID WELL WOULD THEY LET HER COME OUT BY NEW YEAR'S?
AND THEN IT WAS SIX MONTHS AND SAY WELL, MAYBE THEY WILL -- IT'S SIX MONTHS ALREADY, MAYBE THEY ARE GOING TO LET HER OUT.
AND YEAR GONE BY.
TWO YEARS GONE BY.
I GOT JUST REALLY ANGRY.
I WAS LIKE YOU CONTROL THE COURTS.
YOU CONTROL THE JUDGE.
YOU CAN CHARGE HER WITH ANYTHING IN CHINA AND YOU WILL STICK.
AND YOU DECIDE TO THROW WOMEN INTO THAT CELL.
AND JUST, I JUST REALLY -- YOU KNOW, I SAY I NEED TO COME OUT AND TELL THE STORY OF WHAT CHINA IS REALLY, WHAT REALLY -- WHO REALLY OWNS CHINA.
HOW THINGS REALLY WORKS IN THERE.
AND THE OTHER THING IS I GREW UP IN HONG KONG.
HONG KONG IS VERY VERY IMPORTANT AND DEAR THE ME.
I HAVE FRIENDS, RELATIVES FROM HONG KONG.
AND SEE WAG HONG KONG, WHAT CCP DONE TO HONG KONG REALLY BREAKS MY HEART.
I FLEW BACK FROM UK JUST TO BE IN PROTESTS.
AND THEN ANOTHER TIME JUST TO PUT MY VOTES ON LOCAL ELECTION.
OKAY.
SO LET ME JUST PURSUE ONE OF THESE THREAD.
CLEARLY WHAT THE MAIN THRUST OF YOUR BOOK IS ABOUT IS THE CHANGING VIEW AT THE TOP OF THE COMMUNIST PARTY IN CHINA TOWARDS BUSINESS, PRIVATE BUSINESS AND PEOPLE LIKE YOURSELF, ENTREPRENEURS, AFTER, YOU KNOW, HAVING A FREE REIGN FOR MANY YEARS STARTING IN THE LATE '70s, WHICH OPENED UP THE ECONOMY TO MUCH MORE CAPITALIST ENTERPRISES AND CREATING BILLIONAIRES.
XI JINPING IS NOW CRACKING DOWN.
THEY CHANGED THEIR VIEW OF HOW GOOD OR BAD YOU ARE FOR THE COUNTRY.
AND HE'S NOW SAYING, THE PRESIDENT, THAT HE WANTS A WHOLE NEW KIND OF ECONOMY TO SORT OF CLOSE THE INEQUALITY GAP THAT HAS EXPLODED.
SO IS THAT WHAT YOU FEEL THAT, LIKE, YOU KNOW, JUST TOO MUCH MONEY IS TOO DANGEROUS AND THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE TRYING TO EXPOSE?
NO.
NOT AT ALL.
ACTUALLY, FIRST OF ALL BOOK CHRONICLES MY LIFE OVER -- MY LIFE, YOU KNOW, I'M 50-SOMETHING NOW.
AND MY CAREER ACTUALLY MIRRORED THE RISE OF CHINA.
SO I WANT TO THROUGH MY PERSONAL HISTORY, I WANT TO TELL WHAT HAPPENED, HOW THINGS HAPPEN CHINA.
THAT'S THE FIRST PART.
AND SECOND PART IS NOT FROM XI JINPING.
ACTUALLY BY AFTER -- CHINA REALLY CHANGED AFTER FINANCIAL CRISIS 2008.
THAT REALLY CHANGED CHINA.
THE LEADERSHIP -- THE LEADERSHIP THINKS, YOU KNOW, LOOK AT THE WEST.
YOU KNOW, BEFORE THAT EVERYBODY BELIEVED, THE ENTIRE LEADERSHIP AND I THINK MOST OF PEOPLE IN CHINA BELIEVED WE WANT TO BE LIKE THE WEST.
WE WANT DEMOCRACY.
WE WILL HAVE MORE ELECTION, MORE PRESS FREEDOM AND ALL OF THAT.
IS THE QUESTION, THE ARGUMENT AROUND IN THE SOCIETY AND WITHIN THE LEADERSHIP IS AT WHAT PACE ARE WE GOING TO GO AND GET THERE?
THAT WAS THE DEBATE.
AFTER '08 EVERYTHING CHANGED.
THEY FEEL LIKE WELL LOOK AT THE WEST.
THE MORAL THERE IS NOT THAT GREAT.
LOOK AT US, IF WE HAVEN'T STAND STRONG THE WHOLE ASIA WOULD CRUSH AROUND US.
IT IS BECAUSE OF US MAYBE -- NOT THAT BAD.
SO AFTER '08 EVERYTHING CHANGE, MANY THINGS CHANGE.
THE STATE ENCROACH FORWARD.
THE PRIVATE ENTERPRISE PUSHED BACKWARDS.
FREEDOM OF ALL SORTS IS BEING BACK.
AND JUST, YOU KNOW, IN MY CASE, YOU KNOW, PARTY APPARATUS OR SOMETHING -- MY COMPANY, I NEED TO ANSWER TO THE PARTY SECRETARY, WHICH DOESN'T EXIST BEFORE.
SO XI JINPING IS JUST QUICKENS PACE OF THE CHANGE.
BUT HE START BEFORE THAT.
AND THE REASON IS THAT IS THERE AT WHAT I'M TRYING TO ILLUSTRATE THROUGH THE WHOLE, MY 30 YEARS OF BUSINESS LIFE IF CHINA IS THE STRUCTURE IS THERE.
WITHOUT CHANGING THE STRUCTURE, EVERY -- OR ALL THE OTHER CHANGE IS COSMETIC.
CLOSING THE WEALTH, AND THE POOR, THE GAP, THE DISPARITY, YES IT IS RIGHT.
I AGREE WITH IT.
BUT THE REASON THEY ARE CLOSING IT IS NOT BECAUSE THEY BELIEVE THERE IS MORE FAIRNESS TO IT.
THE REASON THEY ARE CLOSING IT IS BECAUSE THAT'S GOOD FOR THE LONGEVITY OF THE RULE OF PARTY.
THE PARTY WILL HAVE BETTER GRIP OF POWER.
BECAUSE BY CLOSING THE GAPS.
WE REACHED OUT QUITE A LOT.
WE TRY TO GET THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT RESPONSE TO YOUR, YOU KNOW, TO BOOK BECAUSE THEY ARE CLEARLY, YOU KNOW, AS YOU HAVE WITNESSED YOURSELF, THEY ARE NOT THRILLED WITH THE FACT YOU HAVE PUBLISHED IT.
SO THE EMBASSY HERE IN THE UK TOLD US THAT THE GROUNDLESS ACCUSATIONS AND WANTON -- BY CHINESE LEADERS -- IN HIS BOOK RED ROULETTE ARE COMPLETE LIES.
AND CLEARLY THEY DIDN'T WANT US TO INTERVIEW YOU EITHER JUST LIE THEY DON'T WANT THIS BOOK TO SEE THE LIGHT OF DAY.
BUT WHAT CO-YOU SAY TO THE FACT THAT -- IN FACT YOU HAVE WRITTEN ABOUT AND YOU HAVE TALKED ABOUT IT, THAT THEY ARE HAVING A SORT OF REVIEW, AND YOU SORT OF TALKED ABOUT IT JUST NOW OF THEIR RELATIONSHIP WITH THE BUSINESS COMMUNITY.
AND YOU HAVE ALSO SAID THAT WHEN IT COMES TO THESE MATTERS, AND I'M GOING TO QUITE QUOTE YOU, YOU TOLD THE FINANCIAL TIMES ABOUT THE PRESIDENT.
'YOU CAN RELYE ON XI TO MAKE THE WORST POSSIBLE POLICY DECISION AT EVERY TIME TURN.
IF YOU WANT TO GUESS WHERE HE'S GOING TO GO NEXT, PICK THE WORST OPTION.
HE'S GOING TO GO THERE.'
IT MAID ME SAED UP.
BUT A I THINK MOST PEOPLE'S VIEW AROUND THE WORLD OF XI IS THAT HE'S MAKE A CONTROL FREAK AND WANTS TO HUSBAND THE POLITICAL POWER ETC. BUT THAT HE HAS A GRAND STRATEGIC VISION FOR THE RISE OF CHINA COMPARED TO THE REST OF THE WORLD.
YOU ARE KIND OF SAYING NO.
YES, TO YOU QUESTION THERE IS TWO THINGS I WANT TO SAY.
IS FIRST OF ALL, I'M NOT MAKING ACCUSATION IN BOOK.
THAT IS ACTUALLY WHAT -- EXACTLY TRYING TO AVOID.
BECAUSE MOST -- WHAT I'M TRYING TO DO IS I TELL MY STORY.
I TELL WHAT HAPPENED.
WHAT HAPPENED AROUND ME.
HOW DO CERTAIN THINGS, HOW I INTERACT WITH CERTAIN PEOPLE.
I DON'T MAKE ANY, YOU KNOW, ACCUSATIONS TO SAY OH CCP IS EVIL.
I DON'T MAKE ANY -- I WILL LET THE READERS DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES, SEEING THE STORY, SEEING WHAT HAS HAPPENED.
SO I'M NOT MAKING ACCUSATION.
THE SECOND THING IS, IF THERE IS SORT OF, SEVERAL INCIDENTS, YOU LOOK AT THE CURRENT SITUATION WITH U.S. FROM ALL -- YOU KNOW, THINK TANK COMMUNITY, BUSINESS COMMUNITY EVEN WITH THE GOVERNMENT -- U.S.
I DON'T BELIEVE START THIS WE'LL THING WITH LIKE TO GET THE RELATIONSHIP U.S. CHINA WHERE IT IS TODAY.
IT IS BECAUSE HOW CHINA STARTED BEHAVE IN THE LAST FEW YEARS, YOU KNOW, INCLUDING MANY OF YOU HAVE WITNESS THIS.
CHINA RELATIONSHIP PROBABLY ONE OF THE LOWEST POINT WITH THE REST OF THE WORLD.
HOW DOES A HAPPEN?
IT DOESN'T THE WORLD SAY ALL OF A SUDDEN WE WANT THE TURN ON CHINA.
IT IS ALL THIS BEHAVIOR, RIGHT?
FIGHTER JETS FLYING DAILY ASSAULT OVER TAIWAN AIR SPACE.
SO ALL THIS, AND THEN LOOK AT HONG KONG, WHERE HONG CONGRESS IS?
HE DOESN'T HAVE TO PUSH AT THAT PACE AND THAT HARD INTO -- INTO SORT OF TO -- TO -- TO TURN HONG KONG TO BE A SUBSERVIENT SOCIETY.
AND THEN THAT IS DESTROYING HONG KONG.
SO I THINK INCLUDING WHAT HE'S DOING WITH THE TECH SECTOR.
SO IN EVERY ALL THESE INCIDENTS, YOU KNOW, THE TAX SECTOR DESTROY BY MANY ACCOUNTS ABOUT 2 TRILLION.
THAT'S CHINESE CAPITAL.
LOOK, IT IS REALLY FASCINATING AND THE BOOK IS CLEARLY REALLY AN INTERESTING READ.
DESMOND SHUM, AUTHOR OF 'RED ROULETTE. THANK YOU SO MUCH.
> IN BRAZIL THOUSANDS ON THE STREETS NOW MARKING THIS YEAR'S INDEPENDENCE DAY WITH DEMONSTRATIONS FOR AND AGAINST PRESIDENT JAIR BOLSONARO.
THE COUNTRY APPEARS INCREASINGLY DIVIDED AHEAD OF NEXT YEARS' ELECTION.
RIGHT WING SUPPORTERS OF BOLSONARO CLASHED WITH POLICE AS THEY TRIED TO FORCE THEIR WAY TOWARDS CONGRESS.
SOUND FAMILIAR?
CRITICS OF BOLSONARO FEARED THAT HE IS INCREASE FWLI TURNING TO FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP'S PLAYBOOK FOR INSPIRATION SEWING DOUBT IN THE COUNTRY'S INSTITUTIONS.
Reporter: ACROSS THE BIG SCREEN BRAZIL'S CONSERVATIVES LOOK TO THE AMERICAN RIGHT FOR INSPIRATION.
DO YOU GO THE PATH OF SOCIALISM?
OR DO YOU REMAIN STEADFAST AND STRONG FOR FREEDOM?
Reporter: THE CONSERVATIVE POLITICAL ACTION CONFERENCE CPAC, AN AMERICAN IMPORT IS HOPING TO REVIVE BOLSONARO'S BASE AS THE EMBATTLED PRESIDENT FACES SLIDING APPROVAL RATINGS A WEAKENING ECONOMY AND PUBLIC OUTRAGE OVER HIS HANDLING OF THE PANDEMIC WHICH HAS CLAIMED OVER 580,000 LIVES.
A LAWMAKER AND BOLSONARO SUPPORTER TELLS US WHY THE PRESIDENT IS SEEKING A SECOND TERM IN OFFICE.
HE BELIEVES THAT THERE IS A RISK THAT THE RADICAL LEFT WILL TAKE OVER BRAZIL AND THAT THERE IS A RISK OF TOTALITARIAN REGIME WILL TAKE OVER BRAZIL.
AND I BELIEVE THAT TOO.
Reporter: STEVE BANNON.
THE THIRD SON OF THE TRUMP OF THE TROPICS.
PRESIDENT JAIR BOLSONARO OF BRAZIL.
THEY SAY EDUARDO YOU ARE --
WITH EDUARDO BOLSONARO MAKING AN APPEARANCE AT THE EVENT.
BOLSONARO WILL WIN UNLESS IT IS STOLEN BY GUESS WHAT, THE MACHINES.
THE MACHINES.
Reporter: TAKING HIS CUE FROM THE TOUCH PLAYBOOK, BOLSONARO HAS BEEN SEWING DOUBT ON THE INTEGRITY OF BRAZIL'S ENTIRE LEK STRONG VOTING SYSTEM, CALLING FOR PRINTED BALLOTS TO SUPPLEMENT ELECTRONICALLY CAST VOTED.
AND THREATENING NOT TO HAND OVER THE PRESIDENCY NEXT YEAR IF THERE IS SUSPICION OF FRAUD.
Reporter: AS CALLS FOR HIS IMPEACHMENT GROW LOUDER, BOLSONARO CONTINUES TO FIGHT FOR POLITICAL SURVIVAL.
USING THE ARMED FORCES TO PROJECT POWER, WITH A MILITARY PARADE RECENTLY IN FRONT OF THE PRESIDENTIAL PALACE.
ENOUGH TO RATTLE SOME OF BRAZIL'S POLITICAL DISSONANCE.
[SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
Reporter: A FORMER MEMBER OF BRAZIL'S COMMUNIST PARTY SAYS SHE WAS A VICTIM OF TORTURE DURING THE COUNTRY'S BRUTAL MILITARY DICTATORSHIP WHICH LASTS 21 YEARS.
[SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE]
Reporter: IS BRAZIL'S DEMOCRACY AT RISK AMELIA?
FORTUNATELY WORDS FROM THOSE WHO CARRY THE SCARS OF THOSE DARK DAYS AND FEAR THAT BRAZIL'S PAST MIGHT JUST BE ABOUT TO REPEAT ITSELF.
ISA SUAREZ REPORTING THERE.
> AND WE LOOK TO WOMEN'S RIGHTS IN THE UNITED STATES NEXT WHERE THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT VOWS TO PROTECT TEXAS CLINICS FROM PROVIDING ABORTIONS, UPPING THE ANTE AFTER THE STATE BROUGHT IN A NEW LOW ATTEMPTING TO GUT ROE VERSUS WADE.
DAHLIA HAS BEEN FOLLOWING THE TEXAS CASE CLOSELY AND TELLS MICHELLE MARTIN WHAT THE LATEST DEVELOPMENTS MEAN FOR WOMEN IN TEXAS AND BEYOND.
THANKS CHRISTIANE.
DAHLIA, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.
THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.
A LOT'S BEEN WRITTEN AND SAID ABOUT THIS TEXAS BILL BUT I DID WANT TO ASK FOR THE SAKE OF THOSE WHO HAVE NOT FOLLOWED IT TO JUST WALK US THROUGH.
I THINK MANY PEOPLE WHO HEARD ABOUT THE SO CALLED FETAL HEART BEAT PROVISION WHICH MAKES ABORTION ILLEGAL WHEN CARDIAC ACTIVITY IS DETECTED.
THAT IS USUALLY AROUND SIX WEEKS.
YOU WROTE A SCATHING PIECE ABOUT THIS LAW CALLED IT UNCONSTITUTIONAL AND BRUTAL PIECE OF LAWLESS VIGILANTISM.
I DID.
I ROAD THAT.
I THINK IT IS REALLY IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND THAT EVEN TEXAS KNOWS THAT THE CURRENT ABORTION DOCTRINE SAYS THAT YOU CANNOT PUT AN UNDUE BURDEN ON A WOMAN'S RIGHT TO TERMINATE A PREGNANCY UNTIL VIABILITY.
THAT MARKER IS SOMEWHERE BETWEEN 22 AND 24 WEEKS AT PRESENT.
SO WHEN YOU PASS A SIX WEEK BAN AND THE STATE OF TEXAS KNEW THIS WAS UNCONSTITUTION.
BY THE WAY THIS IS GOING TO BE LITIGATED AT THE SUPREME COURT PRESUMABLY THIS TURN.
THIS THE S THE STATE OF TEXAS KNOWINGLY SAYING WE'RE GOING TO DO SOMETHING UNCONSTITUTIONAL.
SIX WEEKS IS TWO WEEKS AFTER THE LAST MISSED MENACE MENSTRUAL PERIOD.
NOH MOST WOMEN DO NOT KNOW THEIR PREGNANT THAT EARLY.
AND TEXAS PROVIDERS TELL US ABOUT 85-90% OF THE ABORTIONS THEY USUALLY PROVIDE HAVE TO BE STOPPED.
SO KNOWINGLY MASS AN UNCONSTITUTIONAL LAW AND TO HAVE A BOUNTY SYSTEM WHEREBY PEOPLE ARE REWARDED PURSUING PROVIDERS, KNOWING IT IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL FEELS LAWLESS.
TELL ME A LITTLE ABOUT THE SUPREME COURT'S RULING.
YOU WERE EQUALLY SKAILTING ABOUT THE SUPREME COURT'S BEHAVIOR IN THIS CASE.
TELL ME ABOUT THAT.
PROBABLY THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT THING THAT SEEMS REALLY HYPERTECHNICAL BUT IT IS URGENTLY IMPORTANT, MICHELLE, IS THAT THIS HAPPENED ON SO CALLED 'SHADOW DOCKET' AT THE SUPREME COURT.
SO THERE IS A REGULAR DOCKET.
THE THING THAT I USUALLY COVER AS A SUPREME COURT REPORTER.
COURT STARTLING FIRST MONDAY IN OCTOBER HEARS CASES THAT COME UP THROUGH THE -- THEY PERCOLATE THROUGH THE LOWER COURTS.
AN APPEALS COURT WILL RULE.
THERE IS A TRIAL RECORD, ORAL ARGUMENT, BRIEFING.
ALL OF THOSE THINGS HAPPEN IN REGULAR ORDER.
THE COURT ALSO HAS AN EMERGENCY DOKTD, RIGHT?
AND THIS IS WHERE A LOT OF DEATH PENALTY CASES COME UP THIS IS WHEN THERE ISN'T TIME TO LET IT PERCOLATE THROUGH THE COURTS.
THE URGENTLY IMPORTANT THING IS THAT IN THE LAST FEW YEARS THE COURT HAS STARTED USING THE SO CALLED SHADOW DOCKET NOT JUST FOR EMERGENCIES BUT FOR VOTING RIGHTS CASES FOR DEATH PENALTY CASES.
WE SAW A WHOLE BUNCH OF IT AROUND COVID ORDERS, SHUT DOWN ORDERS WHERE PEOPLE SAID WE DON'T HAVE TIME TO ARGUE THIS CASE AND LET IT WORK THROUGH THE SYSTEM BECAUSE WE'RE BEING FORCED TO STOP PRAYING NOW.
AND THE COURT HAS OVERWHELMINGLY USED THE SHADOW DOCKET IN RECENT YEARS TO REWARD, FOR INSTANCE, SOME OF DONALD TRUMP'S LAWS AND SAID OH THIS IS EXIGENT, WE HAVE TO TO SOMETHING RIGHT NOW.
JUST A FEW WEEKS AGO KURLT DID AWAY WITH THE EVICTION MORATORIUM ON THE SHADOW DETECTIVE SO THEY DID THIS ON THE SHADOW DOCKET AT MIDNIGHT IN THE DORK DARK OF NIGHT WITHOUT BRIEFING WITHOUT LOWER COURT ARGUMENT WITHOUT AN APPEALS COURT RECORD.
AND THAT IS THE REALLY PERNICIOUS THING HERE.
THERE IS A REGULAR PROCEDURE AT THE COURT THAT IS OPEN AND TRANSPARENT.
HERE WE HAD LESS THAN TWO PAGES, A PAGE AND A HALF, ONE PARAGRAPH OF ANALYSIS FROM THE SUPREME COURT ESSENTIALLY SAYING WE DON'T THINK ANYBODY HAS STANDING THE SUE, WE DON'T THINK ANYBODY CAN WIN.
SO GOOD LUCK TEXAS.
AND TO DO THAT LATE AT NIGHT IN ONE PARAGRAPH, EVEN CHIEF JUSTICE JOHN ROBERTS WHO VOTED WITH THE THREE LIBERALS DISSENTING IN THIS CASE, WAS HORRIFIED AT THE WAYS IN WHICH SOMETHING SO RADICAL, SO UNCONSTITUTIONAL COULD BE PASSED IN THE DARK OF NIGHT WITHOUT REASONING, WITHOUT RATIONALE.
GIVEN THAT THE PROVIDERS ARE THE ONES WHO WENT TO THE SUPREME COURT ASKING FOR THIS EMERGENCY INJUNCTION IN THIS CASE TO STOP THE TEXAS LAW, WHAT IS YOUR CHIEF OBJECTION TO THEIR USING THE SO CALLED SHADOW DOCKET FOR THIS PURPOSE?
I THINK THAT THE PROBLEM IS THAT IT GIVES THE SUPREME COURT PERFECT DISCRETION TO DETERMINE WHAT AN EMERGENCY IS.
AND REALLY THE PROBLEM IS IF YOU ARE GOING TO DECIDE ALL OF THESE THINGSING ON THE BASIS OF PEOPLE RUNNING TO THE COURT IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT AND SAYING THIS IS AN EMERGENCY, THEN TO SAY IT IS AN EMERGENCY THAT LANDLORDS ARE FACING THE CONTINUATION OF THE EVICTION MORATORIUM, THAT LANDLORDS ARE IN PERIL OF EXIGENT HARM, BUT THAT WOMEN IN TEXAS WHO WILL NOT BE ABLE TO HAVE A LEGAL ABORTION EFFECTIVE MIDNIGHT TONIGHT OR IN THIS CASE MIDNIGHT LAST NIGHT, THAT IS NOT AN EMERGENCY OR THAT PEOPLE IN CALIFORNIA WHO WANT TO PRAY IN COVID AND THEY DON'T LIKE THE CEILING THAT HAS BEEN PLACED ON HOUSES OF WORSHIP, THE SUPREME COURT DETERMINED THAT THEY HAD EMERGENCY RELIGIOUS FREEDOM RIGHTS THAT WERE BEING VIOLATED.
SO I THINK THE PRINCIPLE OBJECTION OF THE SHADOW DOCKET FOR ME IS NOT JUST THAT THESE CASES ARE NOT FULLY VENTILATED.
THERE IS NO RECORD.
WE DON'T KNOW WHAT ACTUALLY IS HAPPENING OR WHAT THE HARMS ARE.
BUT THE SUPREME COURT IS TAKING IT UPON ITSELF TO DECIDE WHO IS A SYMPATHETIC EMERGENCY PLAINTIFF.
AND IN THIS CASE THEY SAID OH YEAH THE FOLKS WHO WANTED TO PRAY IN CALIFORNIA AND THEIR CHURCH WAS BEING GIVEN LESS DEFERENCE THAN BIKE SHOP OR COSTCO, THEY HAD AN EXIGENT PERSONAL DIGNITARY EMERGENCY THAT WE HAVE TO ACT ON NOW.
THE WOMEN TEXAS, WHO BY EVERY SINGLE METRIC, HAVE A RIGHT TO END A PREGNANCY UNTIL VIABILITY AT 22 WEEKS, THEY ARE HAVING THE LINE MOVED TO SIX WEEKS.
AND THEY FACE NO EXIGENT EMERGENCY?
THAT IS THE SUPREME COURT ARROGANTING TO ITSELF THE POWER TO DECIDUA A EMERGENCY IS AND WHO A SYMPATHETIC PLAINTIFF IS AND THAT HAS TO BE WRONG.
YOU HAVE SAID REPEATEDLY THIS LAW IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL.
WHAT MAKES IT UNCONSTITUTIONAL?
I THINK DEFENDERS SAY IT IS CONSTITUTIONAL IF THE COURT SAYS THAT IT IS.
SO WHAT MAKES IT --
IN FAIRNESS THE COURT HERE IN ITS ONE AND A HALF PAGE ORDER DOESN'T WEIGH IN ON THE MERITS OF THE CONSTITUTIONALITY.
AND TON SIGNED ORDER GOES TO PAINS TO SAY WE'RE NOT MAKING A DECISION OR DECLARATION OF THE CONSTITUTIONALITY OF THIS.
WE'RE JUST MAKING A DECISION ABOUT WHETHER THIS IS AN EMERGENCY AND WHETHER IS IT COURT HAS JURISDICTION TO GRANT RELIEF.
SO YOU ARE QUITE RIGHT.
IT IS UP TO THE COURT AT SOME POINT TO BE THE ARBITER OF WHAT IS CONSTITUTIONAL.
BUT IF THE COURT CARES ABOUT PRECEDENT AND STARE DECISIS THAT WHEN THEY SAY A LOW IS THE LAW, THEN ROE V. WADE IS STILL GOOD LAW AND CASEY IS STILL GOOD LAW AND ANY PRE VIABILITY ABORTION BAN, MY BAN FREE 22-24 WEEKS IS PER SE UNCONSTITUTIONAL.
THE COURT HAS A CHANCE TO LOOK AT THAT AGAIN AND THE MISSISSIPPI CASE.
DOBBS THAT IS ON THE DOCKET FOR THIS TURN.
IF THEY WANT TO END ROE V. WADE BY ACTUALLY ASSESSING THE LAW AND MAKING A CONSTITUTIONAL DETERMINATION THEY CAN AND WILL LIKELY DO THAT.
CONSERVATIVES HAVE MADE THREE ARGUMENTS BASICALLY.
THE FIRST IS THAT PEOPLE WHO ARE CRITICIZING THIS BILL ARE PRO ABORTION ZEALOTS.
SO THEREFORE IT IS REALLY A MATTER OF WHETHER YOU AGREE WITH ACCESS TO ABORTION OR NOT.
THE SECOND ARGUMENT IS THAT ABORTION IS BAD SO IT DOESN'T MATTER.
IN ESSENCE THE MEANS ARE IRRELEVANT TO DEFEND THE GOAL.
RIGHT?
IF THE GOAL OF ELIMINATING ABORTION OR DISCOURAGING IT SEVERELY IS SO IMPORTANT, THAT IT DOESN'T REALLY MATTER.
BUT I WANT TO FOCUS ON WHAT I'VE OBSERVED AS SORT OF A LEGAL ARGUMENT MADE BY CONSERVATIVES LEGAL WRITERS.
THEIR ARGUMENT IS ROE V. WADE AS GARBAGE DECISION.
IT CREATE AD RIGHT THAT DOES NOT EXIST SO THIS BIGHT BE EQUALLY TORTUOUS GARBAGE DECISION SBOU WHAT, THE TWO CANCEL EACH OTHER OUT.
YOU HAVE SEEN THAT SO WHAT IS YOUR RESPONSE TO THAT.
I THINK MY RESPONSE TO ALL THREE BUCKETS OF ARGUMENTS IS THAT YOU COULD SEE ALL OF THESE SAME THINGS AB GUNS.
YOU COULD CERTAINLY SAY THAT THE KINDS OF GUN CASES THAT ARE BEING PRESSED, AGAIN, THAT WILL BE HEARD THIS TERM AT THE SUPREME COURT ARE BEING MADE BY PRO GUN ZEALOTS.
YOU CAN SAY THAT IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT THE LAW IS.
GUNS ARE BAD.
THAT, YOU KNOW, HAVING SEMI AUTOMATIC WEAPONS IN THE HANDS OF EVERYBODY WHO WANTS ONE IN A WALMART IS BAD.
AND THAT THE HELLER, THE DECISION THAT SAID THAT THERE IS A PERSONAL INDIVIDUAL SECOND AMENDMENT RIGHT BEAR ARMS TO DEFEND YOURSELF IS IS A GARBAGE DECISION.
YOU CAN SAY ALL THOSE THINGS ABOUT ANYTHING YOU DON'T LIKE.
THE PROBLEM IS IT A LITTLE BIT DEPENDS ON WHOSE OX IS BEING GOURD.
YOU CAN DO WHAT THE OPPONENTS HAVE DONE AND SAY IT IS JUST BAD LAW AND THE SCOUT SUPREME COURT HAD THE ABILITY TO JUST REVERSE IT BUT I THINK THE ANSWER TO THAT IS ONE, STARE DECISIS, RIGHT OR WRONG.
AND FURTHERMORE, I THINK I WOULD SAY THAT THE IDEA THAT ROE IS IS A GARBAGE DECISION, WHEN IT IS IN FACT THE CORNERSTONE OF SO MANY PRIVACY, DIGNITY PROTECTIONS THAT CAME AFTER, IS A REALLY WORRISOME ROAD GO DOWN.
IF YOU ARE GOING TO DO AWAY WITH ROE, YOU ARE ALSO DOING AWAY WITH, WHAT, GRISWALD T, THE RIGHT USE BIRTH CONTROL WAN MARRIAGE?
SO I THINK IT IS VERY DANGEROUS TO SAY THAT PRECEDENT DOESN'T MATTER BECAUSE WHAT THAT LEADS TO IS PURE POWER.
WHAT YOU ARE SAYING IS THE LAW IS WHAT FIVE PEOPLE SAY THE LAW IS REGARDLESS OF CENTURIES OF PRECEDENT.
AND THAT REALLY ISN'T A LEGAL ARGUMENT.
THAT IS A PURE POWER ARGUMENT.
I'M WONDERING IF THERE IS A WAY WHICH THIS COULD HAVE BEEN ANTICIPATED.
DO YOU THINK THE ADMINISTRATION AND THE PRO CHOICE AD VOEKTS COMMUNITY WERE CAUGHT FLAT FOOTED HERE?
AND IF SO WHY?
I THINK ONE PIECE THAT IS STARTLING THAT WE HAVEN'T RECKONED WITH YET.
THE WAYS WHICH IT IS A PIECE OF A BUNCH OF LAWS THAT ARE CONSCRIPTING CITIZEN VIGILANTES TAKING IS THE LAWS INTO THEIR OWN HANDS.
IN A VOTING CONTEXT, YOU CAN TAKE IT UPON YOURGSS TO ENFORCE VOTING RIGHTS.
WE'RE SEEING IN THE COVID CONTEXT, AND I THINK THAT THE SENSE THAT CITIZENS SHOULD GIVE UP ON LAW ENFORCEMENT AND TAKE THE LAW INTO THEIR OWN HANDS AND DO WHAT THEY WILL IS REALLY NEW AND REALLY FRIGHTENING.
TO THE SECOND PART, I THINK THE REASON IF FOLKS WERE CAUGHT FLAT FOOTED, IF THEY WERE SURPRISED BY WHAT HAPPENED IN TEXAS, I THINK IT IS BECAUSE THEY WEREN'T PAYING ATTENTION TO WHAT'S HAPPENING IN TEXAS.
IF YOU WERE A PROVIDER ON THE GROUND IN TEXAS, YOU ALREADY WITNESSED HB 2, THAT WAS THE ATTEMPT TO CLOSE CLINICS 2013, THAT THE SUPREME COURT REVERSED IN WHOLE WOMEN'S HEALTH.
YOU SAW GREG ABBOT TRY TO SHUT DOWN ABORTION CLINICS DURING COVID SAYING IT WAS UNESSENTIAL HEALTH SERVICES.
SO I THINK PART OF THE PLAY HERE IS THAT IT IS EASY TO SAY ROE IS STILL GOOD LAW, CASEY IS GOOD LAW.
IT WAS REAFFIRMED AGAIN TWO YEARS AGO IN THE SUPREME COURT, SO WE'RE ALL SAFE.
BUT IF YOU ARE IN A STATE LIKE LOUISIANA, MISSISSIPPI, TEXAS, WHERE THERE IS ONE CLINIC LEFT, WHERE THERE ARE WAITING PERIODS, WHERE THERE ARE ENDLESS HOOPS TO GO THROUGH, THIS ISN'T SURPRISE AT ALL.
CURIOUS ABOUT IS WHY THE COURT WAS NOT MORE INTERESTED IN THE ABUSE OF THE JUDICIAL SYSTEM FOR THIS, BECAUSE THE COURT DOES -- IT AS IN THE PAST BEEN CONCERNED ABOUT THE ABUSE OF THE LEGAL SYSTEM.
I WAS WONDERING WHAT IS YOUR THOUGHT ABOUT THAT.
I THINK THE SHORT ANSWER IS WE DON'T KNOW.
BECAUSE THE DECISION WAS SO ABRUPT THAT WE HAVE NO IDEA WHAT WAS GOING THROUGH THE MINDS.
AS I SAID, THE PAGE AND A HALF OF REASONING WAS UNSIGNED.
WE DON'T EVEN KNOW WHO WROTE IT MUCH LESS WHAT THEY WERE THINKING AND I THINK THE CYNIC IN ME SAYS BECAUSE IT HAD THE EFFECT THEY WANTED WHICH IS ABORTIONS ARE STOPPED.
AND IT DOESN'T MATTER KIND OF THE PRINCIPLES.
THE DEEPER PRINCIPLE HERE AND THE ONE THAT JOHN ROBERTS FLICKS AT IN HIS DISSENT IS NOT JUST ABUSE OF THE JUDICIAL SYSTEM BUT ABUSE OF THE SUPREME COURT ITSELF.
A DELIBERATE DEFIANCE OF SUPREME COURT PRECEDENT AND KIND OF UNDERAPPRECIATED, COMPLETELY OVERRULING OF ROE BY STATE.
AND THAT OFFENDS JOHN ROBERTS WHO THINKS DEEPLY ABOUT THE ROLE OF THE JUDICIAL BRANCH AND THE NEED FOR THE, SORT OF, DIGNITY AND ESTEEM THE PUBLIC REGARD OF THE JUDICIAL BRANCH.
I DON'T THINK JOHN ROBERTS HAS ANY PROBLEM WITH ENDING ROE V.
WADE WHO IS CLEARLY ON RECORD WANTING TO DO AWAY WITH ABORTION RIGHTS.
I THINK THE REASON HE VOTES WITH DISSENTERS IS EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE POINTING TO, THIS IS AN ABUSE TO THE JUDICIARY AND BY THE WAY AN INSULT TO THE JUDICIARY AND THAT IS THE THING I THINK THAT FORCES ROBERTS TO PEEL OFF AND VOTE WITH THE LIBERALS IN DISSENT.
I DON'T THINK IT IS A SECRET THAT THIS HAS BEEN A 30 YEAR PROJECT OF THE CONSERVATIVE MOVEMENT.
A GENERATION-LONG PROJECT OF THE CONSERVATIVE MOVEMENT TO DOMINANT THE JUDICIARY, THAT IS A FACT.
AND IT IS ALSO A STRUCTURAL ISSUE NOW BECAUSE IT IS ALSO BEEN A 30-YEAR PROJECT OF CONSERVATIVE MOVEMENTS TO DOMINANT SLATE LEGISLATURES, WHICH HAS BEEN ACHIEVED.
SO GIVEN THERE IS A STRUCTURAL IMBALANCE HERE, WHAT DO PEOPLE WHO DISAGREE WITH THIS DO NOW?
WELL I THINK IN THE VERY NEAR TERM, THEY DO EVERYTHING THEY CAN TO HELP WOMEN, PARTICULARLY POOR WOMEN AND WOMEN OF COLOR IN TEXAS.
AND THAT MAY INCLUDE HELPING CONSTRUCT FUNDS TO HELP THEM GET OUT OF STATE.
WE'VE SEEN A HUGE UP TICK IN WOMEN ALREADY TRAVELING TO NEW MEXICO AND TO OKLAHOMA.
BUT YOU ARE QUITE RIGHT, THAT DOESN'T SOLVE THE LARGER STRUCTURAL PROBLEM.
AND THOSE ARE THE PLACES WHERE I THINK YOU ARE ALSO RIGHT.
A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE JUST TAKEN THEIR EYE OFF BALL.
IF YOU LOOK AT POLLING AROUND REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS, COUNTRY IS ABSOLUTELY EMPHATICALLY CLEAR THAT NONE OF WHAT WE'RE SEEING IN TEXAS ALIGNS WITH WHAT THE MAJORITY SAY IN POLLS.
VAST MAJORITY OF AMERICANS SUPPORT ABORTION.
AND SO I THINK WHAT HAS --
-- ORGANIZATION IN SOME CONTEXT JUST TO BE CLEAR ABOUT THAT.
I THINK IT IS ACCURATE TO SAY.
THEY DON'T SUPPORT ALL ABORTION AT ALL TIMES.
BUT I THINK IT IS ACCURATE TO SAY THAT THE MAJORITY OF THE COUNTRY DOES SUPPORT ACCESS TO ABORTION UNDER MOST CIRCUMSTANCES AS MOST TIMES.
THE LEGAL CONSENSUS THAT CURRENTLY EXISTS IS GENERALLY SUPPORTED BY THE PUBLIC.
THERE IS A REALLY GOOD CLARIFICATION.
THAT IS EXACTLY RIGHT FLGT I THINK THE TERM OF ART IS KWTD ABORTION ON DEMAND' AND YOU ARE QUITE RIGHT THAT WE DON'T HAVE VAST MAJORITIES SUPPORTING ALL ABORTION ALL THE TIME.
BUT I WILL SAY A LAW LIKE THE TEXAS LAW THAT HAS NO EXCEPTIONS FOR RAPE AND INCEST IS REALLY REFLECTIVE OF A VERY VERY MINORITY OPINION.
AND I THINK THAT THE REASON THAT WE'RE SEEING THESE HEART BEAT BILLS, WE'VE SEEN IN 2021 ALONE RECORD NUMBERS OF ANTI-ABORTION LAWS PASSING IN STATE HOUSES AND RED STATES IS EXACTLY BECAUSE OF WHAT YOU HAVE SAID, BECAUSE OF THE CAPTURE OF STATE LEGISLATURES AND ALSO BECAUSE OF THE CAPTURE OF THE COURTS.
AND I THINK THAT THAT REQUIRES SYSTEMS THINKING.
NOT SORT OF INDIVIDUAL LIBERTY FRUSTRATION BUT THINKING ABOUT SYSTEMS, THINKING ABOUT HOW IT IS THAT BY THE WAY TEXAS THE SAME DAY THAT SB 8 WENT INTO EFFECT PASSED THIS MASSIVE RESTRICTIVE VOTING LAW.
SO HOW IS IT POSSIBLE THAT WE ARE LOOKING AT MINORITY POSITIONS BEEN WRITTEN INTO LAW?
AND SO I THINK THAT IF THIS IS THE KIND OF THING THAT WORRIES PEOPLE, IT REALLY IS TIME TO STARTED THINKING ABOUT STRUCTURAL COURT REFORM OF THE FEDERAL COURTS, SOMETHING THAT NOBODY WANTS TO SAY OUTLOUD.
IT IS TIME TO START THINKING ABOUT WINNING STATE HOUSES.
IT IS TIME TO THINK VERY VERY SERIOUSLY ABOUT WHETHER, YOU KNOW, FREE AND FAIR ELECTIONS CAN HAPPEN AND THOSE THE KIND OF THINGS THAT ARE BORING AND TECHNICAL AND DON'T MAKE GOOD TELEVISION SO NOBODY WANTS TO THINK IN TERMS OF THOSE SYSTEMS BUT YOU ARE RIGHT, THOSE SYSTEMS ARE EXACTLY KIND OF WHAT IS COMING HOME TO ROOST NOW.
THANK YOU FOR TALKING WAS TODAY.
ALWAYS A PLEASURE.
THANK YOU.
> FASCINATING REALLY AND IMPORTANT.
AND FINALLY TONIGHT AN EXTRAORDINARY TALE OF SURVIVAL.
IT HAPPENED IN AUSTRALIA WHERE A THREE YEAR OLD BOY HAS BEEN REUNITED WITH HIS FAMILY AFTER GOING MISSING IN RURAL AREA.
ANTHONY AJ WAS LOCATED ON A RIVER BANK LESS THAN 500 METERS FROM HIS FAMILY HOME AFTER AN INTENSE SEARCH AND RESCUE.
THE TODDLER WHO AS AUTISM AND IS NON VERBAL MIRACULOUSLY MANAGED TO SURVIVE IN THE BUSH FOR THREE DAYS.
HE WAS FOUND CUPPING WATER TO DRINK IN HIS HANDS.
WHICH POLICE SAY OF COURSE WAS KEY TO HIS SURVIVE.
WHAT A CLEVER BOY WITH SUCH A STRONG SURVIVAL INSTINCT WHO IS FEW SAVE AND SURVIVING WITH HIS PARENTS.
THAT'S IT FOR NOW.
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR WATCHING ON PBS.
JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.
♪♪♪