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> HELLO, EVERYONE.
AND WELCOME TO 'AMANPOUR AND COMPANY.'
HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.
> THEY TOLD THE WORLD THAT THEY INTEND TO UPHOLD THE BASIC RIGHTS OF THE AFGHAN PEOPLE, INCLUDING WOMEN AND GIRLS.
WE'LL BE LOOKING VERY, VERY CAREFULLY AT THAT.
WHILE WOMEN IN AFGHAN CITIES PROTEST FOR THEIR RIGHTS, WHAT IS LIFE REALLY LIKE FOR WOMEN IN THE COUNTRYSIDE?
THE NEW YORKERS PROVIDE A CRUCIAL OVERLOOKED PERSPECTIVE.
THEN --
THERE ARE ALSO SIGNS OF HOPE.
THOSE LITTLE MOMENTS OF CARING FOR ANOTHER WERE THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN LIFE AND DEATH.
THE HORROR AND HUMANITY OF THE DAY THAT STARTED IT ALL.
WITH DANIEL BOLGOTTO, DIRECTOR OF '9/11: ONE DAY IN AMERICA'.
9/11 AND THE WAR ON TERROR THAT RESULTS FROM IT IS A DOORWAY INTO AMERICAN HIMSELF TRY.
WE TALKED TO SPENCER AKERMAN ABOUT HIS NEW BOOK.
AND FINALLY, A WRITER REFLECTS ON HER COMING OF AGE IN PARIS.
♪
> 'AMANPOUR & COMPANY' IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III.
CANDACE KING WEIR.
THE CHERYL AND PHILIP MILSTEIN FAMILY.
THE ANDERSON FAMILY FUND.
THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION.
JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.
BERNARD AND DENISE SCHWARTZ.
KU AND PATRICIA EWING, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.
ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.
THANK YOU.
> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.
I'M BIANNA GOLODRYGA IN NEW YORK, SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, WHO WILL BE BACK TOMORROW.
AFGHANISTAN'S NEW LEADERS ALLOWED ABOUT 200 PEOPLE TO LEAVE KABUL FOR DOHA TODAY, AMONG THEM U.S. NATIONALS.
IT'S THE FIRST COMMERCIAL FLIGHT OUT SINCE THE TALIBAN SEIZED CONTROL IN MID AUGUST, BUT INSIDE KABUL IT'S CLEAR THAT THERE'S A NEW SHERIFF IN TOWN.
THE TALIBAN DETAINED MORE THAN A DOZEN JOURNALISTS WHO WEEK, INCLUDING THESE TWO REPORTERS FROM AN AFGHAN NEWS SITE, WHO WERE ARRESTED.
AND AS YOU CAN SEE, THEN TORTURED AND BADLY BEATEN WHILE REPORTING ON A WOMEN'S RIGHTS PROTEST THERE.
ALL THIS WEEK WE'VE SEEN BRAVE WOMEN TAKING TO THE STREETS, BUT WHAT IS LIFE LIKE FOR WOMEN OF THE AFGHAN COUNTRYSIDE, SUFFERING THROUGH DECADES OF CIVIL WAR AND FOREIGN OCCUPATION?
NEW YORKER CONTRIBUTOR IMBEDDED HIMSELF AMONG PEOPLE AND PLACES THAT ARE RARELY COVERED IN WESTERN MEDIA.
THIS NEW ARTICLE IS CALLED 'THE OTHER AFGHAN WOMEN' AND HE JOINS US FROM QATAR.
THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.
THIS IS A FASCINATING PIECE THAT I SUGGEST EVERYONE READ WHEN THEY ASK WHAT THE LAST 20 YEARS HAS BEEN LIKE AND WHAT IS THE IMPACT ON WOMEN IN PARTICULAR IN AFGHANISTAN.
YOU CHOSE TO FOCUS ON THE OTHER WOMEN WHO IN THIS CASE ARE WOMEN THAT LIVE IN THE COUNTRYSIDE.
WHY?
WELL, YOU KNOW, WHEN WE THINK ABOUT THE WAR IN AFGHANISTAN, WE TEND TO HAVE A VERY VAGUE IDEA OF IT, BUT IN FACT ON THE GROUND THE WAR IS ONLY FOUGHT IN PART OF THE COUNTRY AND THAT'S IN THE RURAL, SOUTHERN AFGHANISTAN, AND SO I WAS REALLY CURIOUS TO SEE WHAT WAS LIFE LIKE FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN LIVING, IN SOME CASES THROUGH FOUR DECADES OF CONFLICT.
SO I DECIDED TO TRAVEL THIS SUMMER TO INTERVIEW DOZENS OF WOMEN TO TRY TO FIND OUT.
I'M JUST CURIOUS, HOW DID YOU FIND THESE WOMEN AND WERE THEY OPEN TO SPEAKING WITH YOU?
I KNOW YOU SPENT A SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF TIME WITH A WOMAN NAMED SHAKIRA, WHO SEEMS SURPRISED SHE SHARED HER NAME WITH ONE OF THE WORLD'S BIGGEST POP STARS.
MANY OF THESE WOMEN HAVE NOT MET FOREIGNERS.
SHAKIRA TOLD ME SHE HASN'T MET A FOREIGNER WHO WASN'T CARRYING A GUN.
SO THEIR ONLY EXPERIENCE WITH THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY IS THROUGH VIOLENCE, THE MILITARY.
SO IT WAS DIFFICULT FOR ME TO ACTUALLY MEET THEM AT FIRST.
I HAD TO GO THROUGH GRANDMOTHERS BECAUSE IN THESE VERY CONSERVATIVE, TRADITIONAL AREAS IT'S VERY UNUSUAL FOR MEN, UNRELATED MEN TO SPEAK WITH WOMEN, UNRELATED TO THE TALIBAN.
IT'S BEEN THIS WAY FOR A LONG TIME.
SO I FIRST MET WITH SOME GRANDMOTHERS AND THEY REFERRED ME TO OTHER PEOPLE AND EVERY SINGLE TIME I MET SOMEBODY, I ASK THEM, TELL ME YOUR LIFE STORY FROM THE BEGINNING.
WHEN THEY DID THAT, I WAS REALLY SHOCKED, EVEN AS SOMEBODY MYSELF WHO HAS BEEN COVERING THIS CONFLICT FOR A DECADE, I WAS SHOCKED BY THE LEVEL OF VIOLENCE THEY HAD SEEN.
WHETHER IT'S AIR STRIKES OR ROADSIDE BOMBS OR KIDNAPPINGS OR WHAT NOT.
YES, BECAUSE SO MUCH OF WAR, ESPECIALLY FOR THOSE THAT DON'T LIVE THROUGH IT, THE TOLD THROUGH THE LENS OF THE GOOD GUYS AND BAD GUYS.
ONE WOULD ASSUME OBVIOUSLY THAT THE GOOD GUYS WOULD BE THE AMERICANS AND ALLIES THAT COME IN AND SUPPORT THE AFGHAN ARMY AND IT'S NOT AS SIMPLE OF THAT.
THIS IS REALLY WHAT GETS TO THE CRUX OF YOUR PIECE HERE.
I WANT TO JUST READ ONE VERSE FROM IT.
YOU WRITE THE TALIBAN TAKEOVER HAS RESTORED ORDER TO THE CONSERVATIVE COUNTRYSIDE, WHILE PLUNGING THE LIBERAL STREETS OF KABUL INTO FEAR AND HOPELESSNESS.
THIS BRINGS TO LIGHT THE UNSPOKEN PREMISE OF THE PAST TWO DECADES.
IF U.S. TROOPS KEEP BATTLING THE TALIBAN IN THE COUNTRYSIDE, THEN LIFE IN THE CITIES COULD BLOSSOM.
THIS MAY HAVE BEEN A SUSTAINABLE PROJECT, BUT WAS IT JUST?
CAN THE RIGHTS OF ONE COMMUNITY DEPEND IN ON THE RIGHTS OF ANOTHER?
IS IT REALLY AS BINARY OF A CHOICE AS THIS?
DO THESE WOMEN FEEL THEIR LIVES ARE BEING SACRIFICED FOR THE LIVES AND FREEDOMS OF WOMEN IN LARGER CITIES?
YOU KNOW, EVERY SINGLE WOMAN I MET I ASKED THEM ABOUT WOMEN'S RIGHTS.
I SAID, YOU KNOW, THE UNITED STATES SAYS THAT ONE OF THE REASONS WHY THEY'VE INVADED AFGHANISTAN AND THEY SUPPORT THE AFGHAN GOVERNMENT IS TO BRING RIGHTS TO WOMEN BECAUSE, OF COURSE, WE ALL KNOW HOW HORRIBLE THE TALIBAN IS AND WAS IN THE '90s WITH RESPECT TO WOMEN.
AND WHAT SURPRISED ME IS THE WOMEN THAT I MET WERE COMPLETELY SHOCKED BY THIS.
THEY WERE SURPRISED BY THIS.
THEY SAID HOW COULD YOU CONSIDER THIS RIGHT?
SHAKIRA, THE WOMAN THAT I INTERVIEWED IN-DEPTH, SHE'S LOST 16 MEMBERS OF HER FAMILY IN MULTIPLE INCIDENTS.
THIS ISN'T IN ONE INCIDENT.
IT WAS ONE FAMILY MEMBER WAS SHOT BY A SNIPER, ANOTHER ONE WAS KILLED IN A CROSSFIRE, ANOTHER ONE WAS KILLED BY A DRONE.
SO IT'S JUST TRAGEDY AFTER TRAGEDY FOR SO MANY OF THESE WOMEN AND SO THEY'RE ASKING ME, HOW DO YOU CALL THIS RIGHT?
AND IT'S NOT THAT THEY DON'T SUPPORT WOMEN'S RIGHTS.
THEY WANT RIGHTS.
THEY WANT TO BE ABLE TO EDUCATE THEIR CHILDREN, THEY WANT TO BE ABLE TO HAVE A FREEDOM OF MOVEMENT.
BUT THE TRAGEDY OF THE LAST 20 YEARS IS THAT THAT WASN'T PROVIDED TO THESE WOMEN.
INSTEAD, THE CHOICE WAS GIVEN THAT, YOU KNOW, EITHER YOU HAVE TO LEAVE THIS AREA, OR IF YOU'RE GOING TO BE HERE YOU'RE GOING TO BE IN THE MIDDLE OF A WAR ZONE.
I WANT TO READ FOR OUR VIEWERS QUOTES THAT WOMEN GAVE YOU.
ONE WAS THAT THEY ARE GIVING RIGHTS TO KABUL WOMEN AND THEY ARE KILLING WOMEN HERE.
IS THIS JUSTICE?
ANOTHER WOMAN SAID, THIS IS NOT WOMEN'S RIGHTS.
WHEN YOU WERE KILLING US, OUR BROTHERS, KILLING OUR FATHERS.
AND IT DOES LEAD ONE TO THINK THAT THESE WOMEN, WOMEN LIKE SHAKIRA, AND YOU DO AN INCREDIBLE JOB JUST STORY TELLING AND GIVING US A SENSE OF WHAT THEIR LIVES WERE LIKE FROM CHILDHOOD UP THROUGH BECOMING MOTHERS AND ADULTS.
THEY IN A SENSE ARE THE EXPERTS ON THE GROUND.
WE WERE TALKING TO EXPERTS EVERY SINGLE DAY ABOUT WHAT WENT WRONG, WHAT COULD HAVE GONE DIFFERENTLY, AND THESE WOMEN ARE EXPERTS IF FOR NO OTHER REASON THAN THEIR MAIN FOCUS WAS SURVIVAL AND MAKING SURE THEIR FAMILIES WERE OKAY.
AND ALONG THE WAY ALL OF THESE YEARS, THEY GOT TO KNOW MANY OF THESE PEOPLE ON BOTH SIDES, THE AFGHAN ARMY AND THE TALIBAN.
ABSOLUTELY.
AND YOU SAID IT REALLY WELL BEFORE, WHICH IS THAT WE HERE IN THE UNITED STATES OR EXPERTS WHO ARE TALKING ABOUT THE CONFLICT TEND TO THINK ABOUT IT IN SIMPLISTIC TERMS.
THERE ARE TERRORISTS ON THE ONE SIDE AND THERE ARE THE GOOD GUYS ON THE OTHER SIDE.
BUT WHEN YOU TALK TO THE WOMEN WHO ARE THE REAL EXPERTS BECAUSE THEY'VE LIVED THE EXPERIENCE, THEY WILL SAY THE PEOPLE WE THINK ARE THE GOOD GUYS IN THEIR EYES ACT LIKE TERRORISTS.
SO THERE IS A U.S. ALLY I TALK ABOUT IN THE PIECE AND HE WAS DOING HORRIFIC CRIMES FOR DECADES.
IN THE '90s HE WAS ARRESTING PEOPLE FOR HAVING LOVE AFFAIRS, IN THE 2000s HE WAS ROUNDING PEOPLE UP, HELPING THE AMERICANS SEND INNOCENT MEN TO GUANTANAMO.
SO THE WOMEN HERE WERE LIVING IN WHAT THEY DESCRIBED, AND THERE'S A WORD I HEARD A LOT, WHICH IS TERROR.
THAT THEY WERE LIVING IN A STATE OF TERROR.
AND FOR THEM, THE PEOPLE THAT WE CONSIDERED THE ALLIES WERE NOT THE GOOD GUYS, AND IF YOU'RE IN THAT CIRCUMSTANCE THEN WHAT YOU'RE GOING TO DO IS TRY TO SURVIVE, ESSENTIALLY.
AND WHAT HAPPENED, TRAGICALLY, IS THAT THE TALIBAN CAME INTO THESE COMMUNITIES AND THE TALIBAN WERE REPRESSIVE AND AWFUL TOWARDS THE COMMUNITIES, BUT AT LEAST THEY DIDN'T DO THE HORRIBLE THINGS THAT THE U.S.
ALLIES DID.
SO THE WOMEN ACQUIESCED.
THE COMMUNITIES ACQUIESCED TO THE TALIBAN AND THAT'S A CENTRAL PART OF THE STORY FOR WHY WE SAW A SUDDEN COLLAPSE IN THE LAST FEW MONTHS OF THE AFGHAN GOVERNMENT.
AND THE DIFFERENCE IS THAT THE U.S. AND ITS ALLIES FOR THE MOST PART TRIED TO NOT HARM CIVILIANS AND THAT THERE WERE WARNINGS GIVEN TO LEAVE THE AREA IF THERE WAS GOING TO BE FIGHTING OR BOMBING IN THAT AREA, BUT NONETHELESS, MANY WERE KILLED AT THE HANDS OR BY THE DOINGS OF THOSE ON THE U.S. SIDE OR ITS ALLIES, BECAUSE THEY WERE FIGHTING THE TALIBAN AND THESE FAMILIES ARE CAUGHT IN THE MIDDLE.
THERE'S ANOTHER DISTURBING POINT YOU BRING UP IN THIS STORY, AND THAT IS ALLEGATIONS AGAINST THE AFGHAN ARMY.
AND THIS IS IN PARTICULAR RELATED TO A GENERAL.
VILLAGERS TOLD YOU OF A MASSACRE OF CIVILIANS, AND RETRIBUTION FOR FALLING INTO THE HANDS OF THE TALIBAN.
ONE DAY BEFORE THIS MASSACRE TOOK PLACE, I ACTUALLY SPOKE WITH THE GENERAL AND I WANT YOU TO PLAY -- I WANT TO PLAY FOR YOU, BECAUSE YOU LATER PLAYED THIS CLIP FOR THE AFGHAN CIVILIAN THERE, BUT I DO WANT TO PLAY FOR YOU WHAT YOU WRITE ABOUT IN YOUR PIECE.
I THINK THAT'S SOMETHING THAT PEOPLE DON'T SEE, BUT I CONSTANTLY SEE THE TALIBAN NOT BEING ABLE TO HAVE ENOUGH MANPOWER TO OVERRUN A CITY, OR IF THEY HAVE ENOUGH MANPOWER, THEY DON'T HAVE THE DISCIPLINE, THE PLAN OR THE UNITY OF COMMAND AS IT'S NEEDED FOR TAKING A LARGE SWATH OF THE TERRITORY.
YOU SEEM VERY OPTIMISTIC AND IT'S REASSURING TO HEAR.
AND IT IS INTERESTING, BECAUSE SUBSEQUENT TO THAT EXCHANGE, I DID ASK HIM IF OTHERS WERE AS CONFIDENT AS HE APPEARED TO BE ABOUT THE POWER OF THE AFGHAN ARMY, AND WE KEPT HEARING THAT TIME AND TIME AGAIN.
OBVIOUSLY WE KNOW THAT WAS NOT THE CASE AND THEY FELL QUICKLY TO THE TALIBAN.
BUT IN TERMS OF THEIR BRUTALITY, I WANT TO GET YOU TO TELL US WHAT THE AFGHAN MAN WHO YOU PLAYED THAT CLIP FOR SAID TO YOU IN RESPONSE.
WELL, YOU KNOW, I PLAYED THIS CLIP TO SOMEBODY WHO WAS FROM A VILLAGE WHERE ONE OF THE HELICOPTERS BELONGING TO THE AFGHAN ARMY STARTED TO FIRE SEEMINGLY AT RANDOM AT HOUSES AND VILLAGES, AND ONE OF HIS RELATIVES ACTUALLY HELD UP THE DEAD BODY OF HIS DAUGHTER TO THE HELICOPTER SAYING, SCREAMING, WE'RE CIVILIANS, AND STILL THE HELICOPTER SHOT AT THE FAMILY, AND SO PEOPLE DIED.
HIS WIFE WAS IN A COMA, HE HAD ANOTHER CHILD WHO DIED.
AND SO I WAS CURIOUS TO GET HIS REACTION, BECAUSE THE NARRATIVE THAT WE WERE HEARING IN THE WEST WAS SO RADICALLY DIFFERENT FROM WHAT I WAS SEEING ON THE GROUND.
I SHOWED HIM THE CLIP AND HE BROKE DOWN IN TEARS AND HE COULDN'T UNDERSTAND WHY THIS WAS HAPPENING, WHY IS THIS PERSON THAT HE CEASE AS A WAR CRIMINAL BEING GIVEN A PLATFORM.
SO HE SAID, WHY ARE THEY DOING THIS TO US, ARE THEY TRYING TO MOCK US?
AND THE NARRATIVE PARTICULARLY SURROUNDING SAMI SADAT WAS SO DIFFERENT IN THE WEST AS WELL AND WHAT WE HAD BEEN HEARING FROM MULTIPLE REPORTS AND EXPERTS.
THIS DOES COME AS A SHOCK.
I WANT TO TELL YOU ABOUT, AND I'M SURE YOU'VE READ THAT SAMI HAS DENIED THIS ACCUSATION.
HE REFUSED A COMMENT FOR YOUR ARTICLE, BUT HE DENIED THE ACCUSATIONS ON TWITTER.
HE SAID THAT YOU DIDN'T COMMUNICATE WITH HIM OR HIS TEAM FOR A RESPONSE AND HE DENIES THAT THERE EVEN WERE CIVILIAN CASUALTIES.
WHAT IS YOUR RESPONSE TO THAT?
ARE ANY OF HIS STATEMENTS CREDIBLE IN YOUR OPINION?
YEAH, UNFORTUNATELY, THEY'RE NOT CREDIBLE AT ALL.
I REACHED OUT TO HIM MULTIPLE TIMES.
THE NEW YORKER, THE EXCELLENT FACT-CHECKING TEAM REACHED OUT TO HIM MULTIPLE TIMES AND HE DECLINED TO COMMENT.
AND THE TESTIMONIES BY PEOPLE ON THE GROUND ARE OVERWHELMING.
IT'S NOT JUST ONE OR TWO CASES.
IT WAS AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN THAT PEOPLE SAID THAT THE AFGHAN ARMY WAS COMMITTING MASSACRES.
I VISITED THE SITE OF AN AFGHAN ARMY BASE THAT HAD BEEN TAKEN OVER BY THE TALIBAN, STRIPPED CLEAN OF ANYTHING THAT WAS USEFUL AND THEN THE TALIBAN FIGHTERS LEFT.
SHORTLY AFTER THAT, VILLAGERS FROM THE SURROUNDING AREA DESCENDED ONTO THE BASE TO TRY TO FIND THINGS, MEALS OR SCRAP METAL, WHATEVER THEY COULD FIND BECAUSE THEY'RE VERY POOR, TO TRY TO SELL ON THE MARKET.
AN AFGHAN ARMY HELICOPTER SEEN BY DOZENS OF PEOPLE, FILMED BY PEOPLE, THOSE FILMS ARE AVAILABLE ONLINE, THIS HELICOPTER ATTACKED INNOCENT CIVILIANS, IT ATTACKED A TANKER THAT BLEW UP AND BODIES STARTED BURNING.
THESE ARE HORRIFIC CRIMES THAT UNFORTUNATELY MR. SADAT IS NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO HIDE FROM.
THE EYEWITNESS TESTIMONY IS OVERWHELMING ON THIS POINT.
WE WILL CONTINUE, AS I KNOW YOU WILL, TO FOLLOW UP ON THESE STORIES.
HORRIFIC SCENES THAT YOU DESCRIBED THERE.
AND OBVIOUSLY THIS ALL COMES BACK TO THE LIVES OF THESE WOMEN WANTING TO MOVE FORWARD AND TAKE CARE OF THEIR FAMILIES.
YOU DESCRIBE THEM BEAUTIFULLY, HAVING DREAMS OF THEIR OWN AND AMBITIONS OF THEIR OWN.
MAYBE NOT AKIN TO THOSE WOMEN IN LARGER CITIES, BUT NONETHELESS, IT SOUNDS LIKE THEY, LIKE MANY WOMEN AROUND THE WORLD, JUST WANT PEACE AS WELL.
THANK YOU SO MUCH.
WE APPRECIATE IT.
THANK YOU.
> WELL, THE IMPACT OF THE TALIBAN'S RETURN COINCIDES WITH THE 20th ANNIVERSARY OF THE 9/11 ATTACKS.
FOR MANY AMERICANS AND OTHERS AROUND THE WORLD, IT WAS THE FIRST TIME THAT THEY LEARNED ABOUT THE GROUP AND THEIR ROLE AS HOSTS TO AL QAEDA IN AFGHANISTAN.
A NEW TV SERIES FROM NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC CALLED '9/11, ONE DAY IN AMERICA' TALKS ABOUT THE ATTACK ON THE WORLD TRADE CENTER.
HERE'S A CLIP.
YOU WOULD END EVERY TRANSMISSION BY SAYING I'M COMING FOR YOU, BROTHER, I'M COMING FOR YOU.
WE'RE COMING FOR YOU, BROTHER, WE'RE COMING FOR YOU.
THIS IS YOUR MOTHER, THIS IS YOUR FATHER.
THIS IS A HUMAN BEING.
I FELT COMPELLED TO RESPOND.
HE SAID, MOM, I JUST WANT TO TELL YOU, I LOVE YOU.
THAT'S HOW YOU WANT PEOPLE TO REMEMBER YOU.
IF WE DIE, WE DIE WITH THEM.
NOBODY IS LEAVING.
AND DIRECTOR OF '9/11, ONE DAY IN AMERICA' JOINS ME NOW FROM LONDON.
DANIEL, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.
WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
I HAVE TO SAY I JUST GET EMOTIONAL.
I'VE WATCHED A FEW OF THOSE EPISODES.
IT'S A SIX-PART SERIES, AND IT DOES TAKE ME BACK TO THAT DAY, AS IT WILL FOR MANY WHO WATCH.
I JUST HAPPENED TO BE THERE A FEW BLOCKS AWAY.
BUT AS SOMEBODY WHO -- AND I'M SURE I SPEAK FOR MANY WHO SAY 20 YEARS NOW, WE HAVE SEEN AND HEARD SO MANY OF THE SAME STORIES, WHAT MORE COULD WE LEARN?
WE LEARNED A LOT MORE WATCHING THIS DOCUMENTARY.
HOW DID YOU FIND THESE STORIES AND WHY WAS IT SO IMPORTANT FOR YOU TO TELL 20 YEARS LATER?
WELL, SOMETIMES AS A DIRECTOR YOU HAVE THE IDEA FOR A DOCUMENTARY SERIES.
IN THIS CASE I WAS APPROACHED BY A COMPANY WHO HAD WORKED TOGETHER BEFORE, AND THEY TOLD ME THAT THEY HAVE SECURED A COMMISSION FOR NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC AND IT WAS FOR THE FIRST TIME TO DO A DOCUMENTARY SERIES THAT WOULD BE ALL ARCHIVE LED AND WOULD BE SEVERAL PARTS AND WOULD BRING TOGETHER THE MOST EXTRAORDINARY, ICONIC, COMPELLING, AS WELL AS UNKNOWN STORIES OF 9/11 AND BRING THEM ALTOGETHER AS PART OF A GRAND NARRATIVE.
AND I IMMEDIATELY JUST THOUGHT THAT IS A REALLY, REALLY GOOD IDEA, BECAUSE THERE HAVE BEEN, AS YOU SAY, A LOT OF DOCUMENTARIES, A LOT OF BOOKS AND ARTICLES ABOUT 9/11.
USUALLY THEY FOCUS ON ONE STORY, ONE ELEMENT, AND THIS WAS AN OPPORTUNITY TO KIND OF BRING IT ALTOGETHER.
AND I THINK, ALSO, THE FACT THAT IT'S BEEN 20 YEARS, IT MEANS THAT TALL THE CONTRIBUTORS, ALL THE SURVIVORS, THE FIRST RESPONDERS THAT WE SPOKE TO HAVE HAD A LOT OF TIME TO THINK THROUGH THESE EXPERIENCES THEY'VE HAD.
AND SO WHEN WE STARTED DOING THE INTERVIEWS, WE REALIZED THESE WERE VERY, VERY POWERFUL AND WE STARTED GETTING A SENSE IF WE PUT THIS TOGETHER THE RIGHT WAY, IT'S GOING TO BE THE A VERY POWERFUL SERIES.
AND CERTAINLY THE REACTION OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE WATCHED IT, IT'S BEEN EXTRAORDINARY.
WE READ THAT THOSE WHO AGREED TO PARTICIPATE, THOSE SURVIVORS, YOU ACTUALLY ADVISED THEM TO TAKE THE DAY OFF AS THEY CAME IN FOR THIS INTERVIEW.
I'M JUST CURIOUS, ALL THESE YEARS LATER, AND I KNOW MANY TALK ABOUT THE THERAPY THAT THEY'VE HAD TO GO THROUGH TO GET THEM TO THIS POINT, WHAT WAS THAT DAY LIKE FOR THEM AS THEY RELIVED THOSE HARROWING MOMENTS?
WELL, IT WAS DIFFERENT FOR EVERYBODY.
BUT I THINK THE VAST MAJORITY OF CASES IT OBVIOUSLY WAS A VERY EMOTIONAL DAY.
SOMETIMES WHEN YOU MAKE A DOCUMENTARY YOU JUST KIND OF TELL PEOPLE, OH, IT WILL REQUIRE AN HOUR OR TWO, AND YOU'RE THERE TO BASICALLY GET A STORY AND YOU GO FROM POINT A TO POINT B TO POINT C.
BUT THAT WASN'T JUST THE PURPOSE OF THIS.
WE WANTED IT TO FEEL LIKE A MUCH MORE INTIMATE, ALMOST LIKE A CONFESSIONAL TYPE OF EXPERIENCE, AND FOR THE AUDIENCE TO GET ACCESS SO ALL THE VOICES YOU HEAR ARE FROM PEOPLE WHO WERE THERE ON THE DAY AND WHO SURVIVED.
WE EXPLAINED THAT TO THE CONTRIBUTORS.
WE SAID TO THEM, WE DON'T WANT THIS TO BE ANOTHER DOCUMENTARY.
WE WANT THIS TO BE A LANDMARK LEGACY DOCUMENTARY, PARTICULARLY FOR A YOUNG GENERATION WHO WERE NOT ALIVE AT THE TIME.
I THINK THEY HAD TIME TO THINK ABOUT THAT AND THEN WHEN THEY SAT DOWN, THEY REALLY JUST BARED THEIR HEARTS OUT.
BUT THE NEXT DAY WE WOULD CALL TO SEE THAT THEY WERE OKAY.
WE ENCOURAGED THEM TO BRING SOMEBODY WITH THEM DURING THE DAY.
BUT MANY OF THEM DID FIND IT CATHARTIC, ESPECIALLY PEOPLE WHO HAD NEVER TOLD THEIR STORY BEFORE, TOLD US THAT IT FELT LIKE A WEIGHT HAD BEEN LIFTED OFF THEIR CHEST.
AND I DON'T WANT TO SUGARCOAT THIS FOR OUR VIEWERS.
IT IS VERY DIFFICULT TO WATCH, OBVIOUSLY, AS ONE WOULD EXPECT.
IT'S TOLD THROUGH THE LENS OF PEOPLE EXPERIENCING SOMETHING THEY SAY NO PERSON SHOULD HAVE TO WITNESS OR SEE.
IT'S THE WORST DAY OF THEIR LIVES.
BUT MANY APPROACH IT FROM DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVES, AND I WANT TO PLAY A CLIP FROM A WOMAN WHO WORKED IN THE SOUTH TOWER THAT DAY AND SHE TALKS ABOUT HER ESCAPE AS SHE WAS ABLE TO GET OUT OF THAT BUILDING.
LET'S PLAY THIS CLIP AND WE'LL TALK ABOUT HER SOME MORE AFTER.
WE GOT DOWN TO ABOUT THE 22nd FLOOR, THE INTEGRITY OF THE BUILDING WAS REALLY STARTING TO DETERIORATE, AND THEN THERE WAS CRACKS STARTING IN THE WALLS AND WE WERE LIKE, HOLY CRAP, WE HAVE TO GET OUT OF HERE.
WE REALLY STARTED TO PICK UP THE PACE, ALMOST RUNNING.
ALL I KEPT THINKING IS THIS BUILDING IS NOT TAKING ME, I'M GOING HOME TO MY KIDS.
SO I KEPT GOING AND GOING.
WHEN WE EMERGED OUT OF THE BUILDING, THERE WAS A SENSE OF RELIEF THAT WE WERE SAFE.
JUST THE FIGHT THAT SHE DESCRIBES AND THE DETERMINATION TO GET HOME TO HER KIDS, IN A SEPARATE CLIP SHE TALKS ABOUT THE FACT THAT THOSE AROUND HER THAT DAY WERE VERY KIND, THAT THERE WAS A LOT OF KINDNESS.
PEOPLE HELPING EACH OTHER.
AND SHE PAYS TRIBUTE TO RICK, A MAN WHO WAS HEAD OF SECURITY OF THE BUILDING, WHO MANY CREDIT WITH SAVING 2,000 LIVES, IF NOT MORE, FOR PREPARING PEOPLE AS BEST AS HE COULD TO GET OUT OF THAT BUILDING IN A TIME OF EMERGENCY.
CAN YOU TALK MORE ABOUT HER AND HER EXPERIENCE?
YES, I MEAN, ONE OF THE ASPECTS OF THE DOCUMENTARY IS THAT WE DID WANT TO COVER THROUGHOUT THE SIX EPISODES ALL FACETS, SO EXPLORE THE PENTAGON, UNITED 93, AND ON EPISODE 20 WE EXPLORED THE SOUTH TOWER, SO WE WANTED TO EXPLORE STORIES OF PEOPLE KIND OF WHO ORIGINALLY THOUGHT THE BUILDING WAS SAFE AND THAT THEY COULD STAY.
THEN WHEN THE SECOND PLANE HIT THEY UNDERSTOOD THAT THIS WAS A TERRORIST ATTACK AND THEY HAD TO GET OUT OF THERE.
AND KATHY WAS A WONDERFUL CONTRIBUTOR AND SHE TALKS ABOUT RICK, THE HEAD OF SECURITY FOR MORGAN STANLEY, AND HE AND HIS TEAM WENT BACK INTO THE BUILDING TO CHECK THAT EVERYBODY HAD LEFT AND THAT'S WHEN IT COLLAPSED.
AND I THINK WHAT YOU SAID AT THE BEGINNING, THAT THE DOCUMENTARY SERIES IS HARD TO WATCH.
WE DON'T TRY TO SANITIZE IT.
WE DO KIND OF SHOW WHY THIS DAY WAS SO TRAUMATIC FOR THE WHOLE COUNTRY, AND THE HORRORS THAT IT TRULY ENTAILED.
BUT IF WE JUST HAD DONE THAT, THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN HALF OF THE STORY.
BECAUSE AS WE STARTED DOING RESEARCH, ALL WE WERE INTERESTED IN WAS SHOWING WHAT IS THE TRUTH OF WHAT HAPPENED THAT DAY.
AND AS WE STARTED LOOKING AT THE STORIES AND SPEAKING TO PEOPLE WHO SURVIVED THAT DAY, THESE STORIES OF PEOPLE HELPING EACH OTHER, COMING TOGETHER, SOLIDARITY, SELFLESSNESS, BRAVERY AND COURAGE WERE EVERYWHERE.
EVERYWHERE YOU LOOKED, THOSE WERE THE KIND OF STORIES THAT YOU FOUND.
SO IT WAS VERY IMPORTANT FOR US THAT THE SERIES, AS WELL AS SHOWING THE HORROR, IT ALSO SHOWED THE HUMANITY THAT WAS EVERYWHERE THAT DAY.
AND KATHY, WHEN SHE COMES DOWN, SHE TALKS ABOUT PEOPLE JUST HELPING EACH OTHER, ABOUT A GUY WHO WOULD NOT KEEP WALKING BECAUSE OF HIS LEG AND PEOPLE JUST CARRIED HIM, ABOUT A WOMAN WHO COULDN'T BREATHE ANYMORE, AND KATHY GAVE HER HER SON'S ASTHMA INHALER.
THAT YOU SAW EVERYWHERE.
AND I THINK ONE OF THE REASONS PEOPLE HAVE A VERY STRONG EMOTIONAL REACTION TO THE SERIES IS NOT JUST BECAUSE OF THE TRAGEDY THAT WE SHOW AND THE HORRIFIC THINGS THAT PEOPLE WITNESSED THAT WE ALSO SHOW, BUT ALSO BECAUSE OF THE HUMANITY AND THE WAY PEOPLE CAME TOGETHER, WHICH WHEN YOU SHOW BOTH OF THEM, BOTH OF THEM BECOME INCREDIBLY EMOTIONAL, AS I THINK IT SHOULD BE.
AND IT'S ONE UNIMAGINABLE TERROR AFTER ANOTHER.
IT'S ONE PLANE COLLIDING INTO A TOWER, THEN ANOTHER PLANE, AND THE IMAGES OF THOSE WHO JUMPED FROM THE BUILDINGS, WHAT HAVE YOU, AND THEN THERE'S THE TOWER OF THE BUILDING FALLING DOWN ITSELF.
FIRST THAT WAS THE SOUTH TOWER AND THAT WAS THE BUILDING THAT KATHY WAS IN.
AND SHE DESCRIBES AS SHE'S TRYING TO RUN OUT OF THE BUILDING THAT SHE SEES CRACKS.
SHE KNOWS AND SHE'S NOT AN ARCHITECT OR A BUILDER, BUT SHE UNDERSTANDS WHAT SHE'S SEEING IS NOT SUSTAINABLE AND IT'S ABOUT TO CRUMBLE AND YOU ALSO SHOW THE AFTERMATH FROM THAT SOUTH TOWER FALLING.
LET'S SHOW A CLIP HERE.
IT'S GONE, THE WHOLE TOWER!
IT'S GONE!
HOLY CRAP?
THEY KNOCKED THE WHOLE FREAKING THING DOWN.
OH, MY GOD!
I CAN'T SEE ANYTHING.
THE WHOLE THING WENT DOWN.
OH, MY GOD.
I SAW THE BUILDING CRUMBLE.
IT'S ALL THE WAY DOWN.
I CAN'T SEE WHAT IS STILL STANDING.
OH, MY GOD.
YOU KNOW, HAVING BEEN THERE, I DIDN'T EVEN REALIZE THE DEVASTATION AND HOW THAT LOOKED TO EVERYONE ELSE AROUND THE WORLD.
I WOULD HEAR LATER FROM FRIENDS AND FAMILY THAT IT JUST APPEARED THAT NOBODY SURVIVED IN LOWER MANHATTAN, JUST THE CLOUD OF SMOKE WAS NOT SURVIVABLE.
AND YOU TALK ABOUT THAT, THAT IT'S HARROWING ENOUGH TO HAVE TO LEAVE THE BUILDING AND THESE PEOPLE THINK THEY'VE ESCAPED DEATH ONCE, ONLY TO HAVE TO RUN AWAY AND ESCAPE IT AGAIN AS THE BUILDINGS COLLAPSE.
WHAT WAS IT THAT YOU HEARD FROM SURVIVORS ABOUT THAT COLLAPSE THAT STOOD OUT TO YOU?
WELL, ONE OF THE MOMENTS THAT MOST STRUCK ME IS AN INTERVIEW WITH PARAMEDICS, WHO ARE FEATURED, AND ONE OF THE THINGS -- WE SHOW THE FOOTAGE OF THE COLLAPSE AND THEN YOU CAN SEE PEOPLE JUST KIND OF RUNNING FOR THEIR LIVES AS THE CLOUD SEEMS TO BE CHASING THEM AND IT'S AN EXTRAORDINARY, HORRIFIC THING TO SEE.
AND SOME PEOPLE THEN GOT TRAPPED INSIDE THE CLOUD AND THE STORY OF THESE PARAMEDICS, THEY RAN TOWARD THE DOOR, BUT IT WASN'T A DOOR, IT WAS GLASS.
AND THEY COULDN'T BREAK IT AND THEY WERE TOGETHER WITH A WHOLE GROUP OF PEOPLE.
THE CLOUD WAS COMING AND SUFFOCATING THEM.
I THOUGHT IT WAS EXTRAORDINARY BECAUSE WHEN I SAW THE CLOUD, I DID WONDER WHAT WOULD IT BE LIKE TO HAVE BEEN RIGHT INSIDE THAT, AND JEN AND BONNIE WERE AND THEY SURVIVED, AS THE SERIES EXPLAINS, THROUGH A MIRACLE.
AT THE LAST MOMENT THEIR LIFE IS SPARED.
ONE OF THE THINGS THAT STRUCK ME IS WHAT ACTUALLY A LOT OF PEOPLE TALKED ABOUT THROUGHOUT THE SERIES, IS WHAT THEY AT THE MOMENT THOUGHT WOULD BE THEIR LAST THOUGHT BEFORE THEY DIED.
AND HER THOUGHT WAS THAT AT LEAST HER PARENTS WOULD GET HER BODY BACK.
AND, AGAIN, IT'S JUST AN EXTRAORDINARY THING, BUT IT ALSO KIND OF SHOWS THE KINDNESS THAT SHE'S SHOWING TOWARD HER OWN FAMILY.
SO ALL THOSE KIND OF THINGS, IT'S INCREDIBLY MOVING, BUT IT TELLS YOU A LOT ABOUT HUMANITY, A LOT ABOUT PEOPLE.
AND WHAT THEY THINK COULD BE THEIR FINAL MOMENTS, THEY'RE THINKING ABOUT THEIR LOVED ONES.
AND YOU'RE RIGHT.
THAT MOMENT REALLY STOOD OUT FOR ME, TOO.
AND SHE SAID THAT THERE WAS THIS SORT OF PEACEFULNESS THAT SHE FELT BECAUSE AT LEAST, AS YOU SAID, HER BODY WOULD BE INTACT FOR HER PARENTS, AND FORTUNATELY HER PARENTS NEVER HAD TO ENDURE THAT PAIN.
THEN THERE'S THE AFTERMATH, RIGHT?
THEN THERE'S SORT OF THE DEAD CALM WHEN THE BUILDINGS COLLAPSE AND THE SOOT SORT OF SETTLED, AND THE DEBRIS SETTLED, AND YOU HAVE VIDEO FROM JIMMY DOBSON, AND HIS PERSPECTIVE AS TO WHAT IT LOOKED LIKE, WHICH IT REALLY DID LOOK LIKE A WAR ZONE IN LOWER MANHATTAN.
LET'S TAKE A LOOK AT THE CLIP.
IT'S THE TIME TO GET OUT.
WHEN I CAME OUT, THERE WAS SILENCE.
THERE WAS NO ONE CALLING FOR ANYBODY, EVERYBODY WAS GONE.
ALMOST LIKE THE END OF THE WORLD.
JIMMY WAS A PARAMEDIC THERE AND IT'S A REMINDER, YOU PAY TRIBUTE WITHOUT NECESSARILY SAYING AS MUCH TO THOSE WHO STOOD THERE, RIGHT, AND STAYED BACK AND STAYED BEHIND, WHO EITHER WENT UP THE STAIRS INTO THE BUILDINGS KNOWING IT LIKELY WOULD BE THEIR FATE AND THOSE THAT STAYED BEHIND AFTER TO HELP SEARCH FOR ANY SURVIVORS.
THEIR STORIES, ALL THESE YEARS LATER, ARE STILL SO DIFFICULT TO HEAR.
I CAN ONLY IMAGINE HOW DIFFICULT IT IS FOR THEM TO CONTINUE TO TELL IT.
ABSOLUTELY.
AS I SAID, THE INTERVIEWS WERE VERY, VERY EMOTIONAL, AND THE WAY WE DID THE INTERVIEWS, WE TRIED TO -- IN THE ROOM WHERE THE INTERVIEW WAS DONE, TO HAVE AS FEW PEOPLE AS POSSIBLE.
SO MYSELF OR THE PERSON ASKING THE QUESTIONS, AND THE CAMERA PERSON AND THERE WAS ANOTHER ROOM WHERE YOU WOULD HAVE THE MONITORS AND OTHER PRODUCERS AND SO FORTH WOULD BE LISTENING IN.
ONE OF THE STRIKING THINGS IS HOW OFTEN IN THE OTHER ROOM EVERYBODY WOULD BE CRYING.
WE WOULD BE LISTENING TO THE INTERVIEW AND THE CONTRIBUTOR WOULD BE CRYING AND THE PEOPLE NEXT DOOR WOULD BE CRYING.
IT CERTAINLY HAPPENED IN JIMMY'S INTERVIEW BECAUSE ONE OF THE EXTRAORDINARY THINGS ABOUT JIMMY, HE BECAME SEPARATED FROM HIS PARTNER, MARVIN, AND HE WAS TRAPPED.
THIS EPISODE IS CALLED THE CLOUD BECAUSE IT LOOKED LIKE LOWER MANHATTAN HAD BECOME ENVELOPED BY THIS DARK CLOUD.
HE GOT OUT OF THERE, HE GOT OUT, BUT BECAUSE HE DIDN'T HAVE HIS PARTNER, HE DECIDED TO TURN AROUND AND RISK HIS LIFE AND GO BACK TO FIND HIS FRIEND.
SO, AGAIN, THESE ARE INCREDIBLY MOVING STORIES OF HUMANITY.
DANIEL, I JUST HAVE TO SAY, I WAS WATCHING THIS AND I'M SURE MANY WOULD FEEL SIMILARLY, SEEING MY CHILDREN, THE ONE EYE WATCHING IT AND THE OTHER I SEE MY 9 AND 5-YEAR-OLD PLAYING AND THANK GOODNESS THEY DIDN'T HAVE TO EXPERIENCE THAT.
WE STILL LIVE NEARBY AND WE'RE REMINDED OF THAT DAY EVERY SINGLE DAY AND I THINK YOU TELL THIS BEAUTIFULLY, THAT IT IS FOR THAT GENERATION, FOR FUTURE GENERATIONS, NOT NECESSARILY THOSE THAT LIVED THROUGH IT, BUT FOR FUTURE GENERATIONS TO KNOW WHAT HAPPENED THAT DAY AND WHY IT'S SO IMPORTANT THAT WE KEEP TELLING THESE STORIES ABOUT DEVASTATION AND HUMANITY.
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR WORK.
THANK YOU SO MUCH.
WE REALLY APPRECIATE IT, DANIEL.
> AND WE'LL HAVE MUCH MORE ON THIS SERIES TOMORROW.
WE'LL HEAR FROM JOSEPH PFEIFER, THE FIRST NEW YORK FIRE CHIEF TO RESPOND ON 9/11.
OF COURSE, WHAT FOLLOWED TO THOSE ATTACKS WAS PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH'S DECLARATION OF WHAT HE CALLED THE WAR ON TERROR.
BUT WHAT DID THE WAR ACTUALLY ENTAIL AND WHAT ARE THE CONSEQUENCES TODAY?
SPENCER ACKERMAN IS A LONG-TIME NATIONAL SECURITY REPORTER WHO HAS SPENT YEARS INVESTIGATING THIS.
IN HIS NEW BOOK 'REIGN OF TERROR', IT CHARTS THE 9/11 AREA TO STABILIZE WORK AND PRODUCED PRESIDENT TRUMP.
SPENCER ACKERMAN, THANKS FOR JOINING US.
LET'S PICK APART THE TITLE A LITTLE BIT.
THE SECOND PART OF THE BOOK TITLE, 'REIGN OF TERROR' IS NOW THE 9/11 ERA DESTABILIZED AMERICA.
THE THESIS, AND YOU SPEND AN ENTIRE 400 PAGES BREAKING THIS DOWN, BUT FOR THE LAYMAN'S TERMS, HOW DO WE GET FROM THIS ERA OF 9/11 TO TRUMP?
SO 9/11 AND THE WAR ON TERROR THAT RESULTS FROM IT IS A DOORWAY INTO AMERICAN HISTORY AND PARTICULARLY A DOORWAY THAT OPENS TO THE MOST NATIVIST, THE MOST RACIST AND VIOLENT ELEMENTS OF AMERICAN HISTORY, AND ALLOWS THOSE TENDENCIES IN AMERICAN HISTORY TO RETAKE POWER UNDER COVER OF A NATIONAL EMERGENCY THAT REQUIRES IN THE TELLING OF THE WAR ON TERROR, VIOLENT REDRESS.
CULTURALLY IT CREATES AN ATMOSPHERE OF FEAR, HYSTERIA AND ANGER TOWARDS ISLAM IN GENERAL AND TOWARD AMERICAN MUSLIMS SPECIFICALLY, AND SWEEPING IN A LOT OF VERY TRADITIONAL NATIVIST RAGE AGAINST IMMIGRATION AND THE PROCESSES THAT ENABLE IT.
AND THEN, ONCE IN POWER, IT STARTS TO TRANSFORM THE AMERICAN SECURITY APPARATUS INTO SOMETHING FAR MORE LAWLESS AND FAR MORE PUNITIVE THAN RECENT HISTORY HAD, EVEN THOUGH IT BUILDS UPON A LOT OF FOUNDATIONS, PARTICULARLY MASS INCARCERATION, THAT ALREADY EXIST IN AMERICAN HISTORY.
AND THEN THE WARS START TO GO TERRIBLY.
THEY START TO BE VERY OBVIOUS DISASTERS.
AND FOR A SEGMENT OF THE POPULATION THAT HAD THEIR TRAUMATIC REACTIONS TO 9/11 MANIPULATED, PARTICULARLY BY RIGHT WING POLITICIANS WITH THE ACQUIESCENCE OF DEMOCRATIC POLITICIANS, THIS CONDITION BECOMES KIND OF INTOLERABLE AND THEY GO SEARCHING FOR EXPLANATIONS AND SEEK POLITICAL LEADERSHIP THAT WILL CHANNEL THAT RAGE.
AND THAT IS WHAT SETS THE STAGE FOR DONALD TRUMP.
AND YOU'RE SAYING BASICALLY THAT HE SAW THAT, UNDERSTOOD THAT, TAPPED INTO THAT, IN A WAY THAT PREVIOUS POLITICIANS HAD NOT?
IN A WAY THAT RECOGNIZED THAT THE SUB TEXT OF 9/11, ALL OF THIS NATIVISM, WAS NOT SOME KIND OF ACCIDENT OR SOME KIND OF UNFORTUNATE BY-PRODUCT, BUT WAS, IN FACT, THE HEART OF THE ENTERPRISE.
AND HE ALLOWED THAT TO BE THE SCRIPT OF THE KIND OF POLITE EUPHEMISM THAT PREVIOUS DEMOCRATIC AND REPUBLICAN POLITICIANS HAD KIND OF HINTED AT BUT SHIED AWAY FROM.
UNDER DONALD TRUMP, THE WAR ON TERROR BECOMES IT'S MOST AUTHENTIC SELF.
JUST THE VERY PHRASE WAR ON TERROR, I MEAN, AT ONE SENSE IT'S SO VAGUE AND SHIFTING THAT YOU CAN'T REALLY BEAT IT.
I MEAN, YOU'RE TRYING TO BEAT FEAR.
AND THEN IN THE OTHER SENSE, YOU COULD FASHION THIS WAR AGAINST WHATEVER FOE YOU LIKE.
THAT'S CORRECT.
THE NAME ITSELF IS SOMETHING OF A SOCIAL COMPROMISE.
IT AVOIDS NAMING AN ENEMY, WHICH HAS TREMENDOUS POTENTIAL TO ANY PRESIDENT THAT'S ALREADY EMPOWERED, THANKS TO THE 2001 AUTHORIZATION TO USE MILITARY FORCE, HOWEVER THAT PRESIDENT WANTS TO DEFINE THAT ENEMY.
SO IT PROVIDES ENORMOUS OPPORTUNITY FOR EXECUTIVE LEADERSHIP TO SIMPLY, AS THE NEED FITS, WRECK ON WHO THE ENEMY OF THE WAR ON TERROR IS OR THE APPARATUS IS AIMED AT.
BUT SIMULTANEOUSLY, THE WAR ON TERROR IS ONLY AIMED AT MUSLIMS.
WHITE TERROR NEVER HAS ANYTHING TO FEAR FROM THE WAR ON TERROR, AND IN THAT EUPHEMISM THERE'S LOTS OF OPPORTUNITY FOR EITHER CHALLENGE FROM EITHER THE SOCIALIST LEFT OR THE NATIONALIST RIGHT TO SAY THAT THE EUPHEMISM IS A HARMFUL THING.
BUT IT'S REALLY ONLY THE RIGHT THAT GETS THE CHANCE, PARTICULARLY UNDER DONALD TRUMP, TO REPLACE THE TERMINOLOGY OUTSIDE OF POLITE SOCIAL SETTINGS WITH WHAT IT BELIEVES THE WAR ON TERROR TRULY IS AT ITS HEART, A WAR AGAINST WHAT DONALD TRUMP CALLS RADICAL ISLAMIC TERROR.
SO YOU'RE SAYING THAT THIS IS ESSENTIALLY A WAY FOR US TO SUGARCOAT THAT WE'RE REALLY ONLY TALKING ABOUT ATTACKS FROM MUSLIM BROWN GUYS FROM OVERSEAS?
BECAUSE ONE OF THE JUSTIFICATIONS FOR THE INTELLIGENCE APPARATUS, THE COUNTERTERRORISM INFRASTRUCTURE THAT WE'VE BUILT IS, HEY, YOU KNOW WHAT, SINCE 9/11 WE HAVEN'T HAD THAT TYPE OF AN ATTACK.
THAT'S CORRECT.
THIS WAS NEVER GOING TO BE AN ENTERPRISE THAT CARED A THING ABOUT, SAY, WHITE TERROR TRAINING CAMPS IN NORTHEASTERN OKLAHOMA OR THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST OR ANY OF THE HUNDREDS OF MALITIAS AROUND THE COUNTRY MADE UP OF WHITE PEOPLE WITH GUNS FROM ON THE BORDER OR IN THE INTERIOR.
THOSE VERY OFTEN, PARTICULARLY THOSE THAT VIEW THEMSELVES AS PART OF A PATRIOTIC LEGACY WITHIN AMERICAN HISTORY AND REPRESENTED BY PEOPLE IN ITS DOMINANT RACIAL CASTE, ARE GOING TO BE ACCUSTOMED BY THE WAR ON TERROR TO VIEW THEMSELVES AS COUNTERTERRORISTS, REGARDLESS OF THE VIOLENCE THAT THEY IN FACT INFLICT AND THE ANTI-DEMOCRATIC POSSIBILITIES THAT THEY REPRESENT.
YOU ARE NOT WRITING A BOOK THAT IS JUST TAKING AIM AT REPUBLICANS.
I MEAN, YOU SPEND A FAIR AMOUNT OF PAGES GOING THROUGH WAYS THAT DEMOCRATS, LIBERALS HAVE CONTRIBUTED TO THE SECURITY APPARATUS THAT WE ALL LIVE UNDER, THE SURVEILLANCE STATE THAT WE'RE PART OF NOW.
THAT'S CORRECT.
TO TELL THE STORY OF 9/11 AS JUST A STORY OF REPUBLICANS SEEKING POWER AND DISFIGURING THE CONSTITUTION AND CULTURALLY, AND FROM A LAW ENFORCEMENT PERSPECTIVE PERSECUTING MUSLIMS IS TO TELL ONLY HALF THE STORY.
THE STORY I TELL THROUGH THE MIDDLE OF THE BOOK AND THEN THE END OF THE BOOK IS A STORY ABOUT DEMOCRATIC AND LIBERAL ACQUIESCENCE AND JUSTIFICATION OF THE WAR ON TERROR, A DEEP, DEEP FEAR, KIND OF A HANGOVER OF COLD WAR ANTI-COMMUNISM AND WHAT THAT MEANT FOR LIBERALISM AND FOR THE LIBERAL POLITICAL COALITION OF DECIDING THAT THE SAFEST THING TO DO IN AN ATMOSPHERE OF INFLAMED NATIVISM, IS TO SIMPLY GO ALONG WITH IT SO AS NOT TO FALL IN ITS CROSS HAIRS.
BARACK OBAMA MAKES THE WAR ON TERROR TRULY FOREVER.
HE MAKES IT LESS CONSPICUOUS AND HE MAINTAINS IT IN SUCH A WAY THAT HE TREATS ONLY THE IRAQ WAR AND CIA TORTURE AS REALLY ENTERPRISES THAT OUGHT TO BE JETTISONED AND THE REST OF THE ENTERPRISE IS SOMETHING THAT LEADERSHIP REQUIRES.
THAT, MORE THAN ANY OTHER ACTION, NOT JUST MAKES THE WAR ON TERROR TRULY FOREVER, BUT DOES SO BY CREATING A DEMOCRATIC LEGACY FOR THE WAR ON TERROR, AND WE SEE THAT IN THE PEOPLE WHO POPULATE JOE BIDEN'S NATIONAL SECURITY APPARATUS.
SO WHAT'S YOUR LAUNDRY LIST?
WHAT ARE THE SYSTEMS OR STRUCTURES OR COMMITTEES, COMMISSIONS -- I MEAN, WHAT WOULD YOU DISMANTLE TO START TO TAKE THIS DOWN?
HOW MUCH TIME DO YOU HAVE?
[ LAUGHTER ]
YEAH, I'LL ANSWER YOUR QUESTION THIS WAY.
AFTER REPORTING ON THIS WAR FROM IRAQ, FROM AFGHANISTAN, FROM GUANTANAMO BAY, FROM WASHINGTON, FROM NEW YORK, FROM AROUND THE COUNTRY, FROM OTHER PARTS OF THE WORLD, I HAVE COME TO SEE THAT THERE IS NO FUTURE FOR THE WAR ON TERROR THAT CAN SIMULTANEOUSLY BE A DEMOCRATIC FUTURE, BE A FUTURE THAT ALLOWS FOR FREEDOM AND DIGNITY NOT ONLY AT HOME, BUT ABROAD.
THE ONLY WAY OF DOING THAT IS BY BREAKING THE WAR ON TERROR.
ONLY AN ABOLITIONIST APPROACH IS AN APPROACH THAT CAN RESTORE WHAT IS SUPPOSEDLY VITAL ABOUT AMERICA, AND ALSO STOP DOING THIS EXTRAORDINARY AMOUNT OF HARM IN THE WORLD.
WE JUST FOUND FROM THE COSTS OF WAR PROJECT AT BROWN UNIVERSITY THAT A VERY ANALYTICALLY CONSERVATIVE ESTIMATE OF THE COST OF THE WAR ON TERROR IS 900,000 PEOPLE DEAD.
THAT IS NOT SOMETHING THE POLITICAL ESTABLISHMENT HAS RECKONED WITH, ITS RESPONSIBILITY, ITS CULPABILITY AND HOW TO MAKE RIGHT THE FACT THAT SO MANY PEOPLE OVER A GENERATION ARE DEAD AT THE HANDS OF THE UNITED STATES.
AND THAT'S NOT EVEN COUNTING THE TENS OF MILLIONS OF REFUGEES THE UNITED STATES HAS CREATED.
THAT'S NOT COUNTING THE WEALTH TRANSFERS THAT THE UNITED STATES HAS ENGENDERED.
THE ONLY THING TO DO AT THIS POINT IS TO STOP DOING HARM AND START BREAKING THE INSTITUTIONAL AUTHORITIES OF THE WAR ON TERROR, START DOING THINGS LIKE DISMANTLING THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY, ABOLISHING THE ACT AND REPEALING THE AUTHORIZATION TO USE MILITARY FORCE AFTER 9/11 AND REALLY ON DOWN THE LIST.
WITHDRAW NOT ONLY FROM AFGHANISTAN, BUT FROM IRAQ, THE END OF THE DRONE WARS, THE END OF BULK SURVEILLANCE, THE END NOT ONLY OF GUANTANAMO BAY, BUT OF INDEFINITE DETENTION.
THE LEGAL STRUCTURES NECESSARY TO ENSURE THAT ALL OF THIS ENDS DURABLY, AND THEN PROBABLY THE MOST FUNDAMENTALLY, THE RECKONING THAT AMERICANS NEED WITH THE CONCEPT OF AMERICAN EXCEPTIONALISM, THE CONCEPT THAT AMERICA, BY VIRTUE OF ITS VIRTUE, ALLEGEDLY, HAS BOTH THE RIGHT AND THE RESPONSIBILITY TO POLICE THE GLOBE, TO BUILD STRUCTURES AROUND THE GLOBE THAT BENEFIT IT, TO ENSURE THAT IT IS THE ACTOR OF HISTORY, NOT THE ONE ACTED UPON.
YOU SPOKE TO ONE OF THE ADVISERS TO PRESIDENT OBAMA, WHO KIND OF COMES BACK AND SAYS, LISTEN, WHAT IF WE DID EVERYTHING THAT YOU'RE ASKING?
WHAT IF WE STARTED TO DISMANTLE THIS APPARATUS AND WE HAD ANOTHER ATTACK ON AMERICAN SOIL AND WHAT WOULD WE DO?
I THINK MAYBE THROUGH THAT ANSWER IS IMPLIED A POLITICAL COST, BUT WHAT ABOUT THE SORT OF SOCIETAL COST?
WHAT THAT IS REALLY TALKING ABOUT IN THAT MOMENT AND I APPRECIATED THE HONESTY OF HIS ANSWER, IS THAT THE POLITICAL FEAR OF 9/11 THAT THE DEMOCRATS DISPLAY SO FREQUENTLY, BOTH UP TO THAT POINT AND BEYOND, IS STILL VERY MUCH IN EFFECT.
BEN IS AFRAID OF ANOTHER TERRORIST ATTACK, CRIPPLING OBAMA'S PRESIDENCY.
WHAT HE IS NOT DOING IS ARTICULATING THE RATIONALE THAT I THINK BEN RONES IN 2021 HOLDS, WHICH IS THAT IF YOU CONTINUE THE WAR ON TERROR, THEN THE DEMOCRATIC EROSION IS GOING TO BE REALLY SUBSTANTIAL AND REALLY SCARY.
AND HE'S ALSO EXEMPTING OBAMA FROM HAVING TO SAY HOW THE WAR ON TERROR IN FACT ENDS, IF IT DOESN'T END WITH THE KILLING OF OSAMA BIN LADIN.
WHAT BEN IS FURTHER NEGLECTING IS THAT THE WAR ON TERROR ITSELF GENERATES ITS OWN ENEMIES, GENERATES PRECISELY THE CIRCUMSTANCE HE FEARS.
AND THEN FINALLY, THERE HAS BEEN A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF TERRORISM ON AMERICAN SOIL.
THINK ABOUT THE EL PASO SHOOTING, THE WORST ACT OF ANTI-HISPANIC VIOLENCE IN THE 21st CENTURY, AND QUITE POSSIBLY IN THE 20th CENTURY OF AMERICA.
THINK ABOUT THE TREE OF LIFE SHOOTING, THE WORST ACT OF ANTI-SEMITIC VIOLENCE IN AMERICAN HISTORY, WHICH IS SPECIFICALLY SPARKED BY THESE QUOTE/UNQUOTE REPLACEMENT FEARS AFTER TRUMP STIRS UP FEARS OF THE QUOTE/UNQUOTE MIGRANT CARAVAN.
AND THEN ALSO REMEMBER THE SHOOTING BY AT THE EMMANUEL CHURCH IN 2015.
THERE IS A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF TERRORISM, THAT IS TO SAY VIOLENCE AGAINST CIVILIANS FOR THE PURPOSES OF ADVANCING A POLITICAL AGENDA THAT THE WAR ON TERROR IGNORES, THE WAR ON TERROR DOESN'T SEE, AND THEN, FINALLY, ULTIMATELY, REPRESENTS THE EROSION OF AMERICA'S SOCIAL FABRIC, THAT THE WAR ON TERROR HAS NOTHING TO SAY ABOUT.
IS THERE SOMETHING TO THE IDEA THAT SINCE WE HAVE ACCUMULATED THE GREATEST AMOUNT OF WEALTH AND POWER AND MILITARY MIGHT, THAT IT IS IN LOTS OF PEOPLE'S VIEWS OUR RESPONSIBILITY NOT NECESSARILY TO BE THE GLOBAL COP, BUT TO STAND UP FOR THOSE RIGHTS, THOSE FREEDOMS THAT WE CLAIM TO CHERISH?
SHOULD WE NOT BE UPSET ABOUT WHAT'S HAPPENED IN AFGHANISTAN AND HOW THE TALIBAN IS GOING TO ROLL BACK THE CIVIL AND HUMAN RIGHTS OF PEOPLE?
SHOULD WE NOT BE FIGHTING AL QAEDA OR ISIS ANYWHERE WHERE THEY GAIN A STRONGHOLD?
WE SHOULD CERTAINLY BE ANGRY ABOUT WHAT WE SEE IN AFGHANISTAN, BUT IT'S IMPORTANT TO BE SPECIFIC ABOUT WHAT WE'RE SEEING THAT MAKES US ANGRY.
WHAT THE MEDIA PORTRAYAL BY AND LARGE OF THE WITHDRAWAL FROM AFGHANISTAN HAS ACCOMPLISHED IS DIVORCING THE HORRORS AT THE KABUL AIRPORT FROM THE 20 YEARS OF WAR THAT MADE THE TALIBAN STRONGER.
IT ONLY BLAMED THE UNITED STATES FOR THESE CONDITIONS FOR CEASING THE FIGHT THE WAR, RATHER THAN RECOGNIZING AND CONTEXTUALIZING APPROPRIATELY THAT THE WAR MADE THE TALIBAN STRONGER AND BROUGHT THE UNITED STATES TO THIS POINT.
THE BEST TIME TO LEAVE AFGHANISTAN WAS ALWAYS GOING TO BE YESTERDAY.
THE SECOND BEST TIME WAS ALWAYS GOING TO BE TODAY.
THE WORST TIME WAS ALWAYS GOING TO BE TOMORROW.
AND THAT'S WHAT THE COVERAGE -- NOT JUST MISSED, BUT MISSED IN AN IMPORTANT WAY THAT DEMONSTRATES THE PROBLEM WITH THE WAR ON TERROR BROADLY, WHICH IS THAT THE UNITED STATES NEVER ALLOWS ITSELF TO RECOGNIZE THAT THE WAR ON TERROR GENERATES ITS OWN ENEMIES AND MAKES AMERICANS LESS SAFE.
THE PRECISE THING THAT IT IS TRYING TO AVOID.
WHAT REALLY MAKES THE AMERICAN PEOPLE SAFE IS NOT A STRUCTURE IN WHICH WEALTH AND MILITARY POWER DETERMINE THE ORDER OF THE WORLD.
WHAT MAKES THEM SAFE IS PEOPLE ACTING INTERNATIONALLY IN SOLIDARITY WITH ONE ANOTHER TO ADDRESS THEIR ACTUAL MATERIAL NEEDS AND HISTORICAL GRIEVANCE.
THAT IS SAFETY IN AN AGE WHEN, AS WE ARE SEEING FROM COVID, AS WE ARE SEEING FROM THE CLIMATE APOCALYPSE THAT IS UPON US, ACTUALLY ADDRESSES THE REAL SAFETY OF REAL HUMAN BEINGS.
AND THEN, FINALLY, WHAT IT STOPS US FROM DOING IS RECOGNIZING THAT WHEN AMERICA IS DOING HARM, IT HAS TO STOP DOING HARM.
THAT IS AN OBLIGATION THAT AMERICA HAS CONSISTENTLY NOT JUST IN THE WAR ON TERROR, BUT THROUGHOUT AMERICAN HISTORY REFUSED TO RECOGNIZE AND REFUSED TO PROVIDE MATERIAL RECKON PENS TO THE PEOPLE AMERICA HAS HARMED.
THE BOOK IS CALLED 'RAIN OF TERROR, HOW THE 9/11 ERA DESTABILIZED AMERICA AND PRODUCED TRAUMA'. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.
> FINALLY, THE POWER OF STORY TELLING FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF A REVERED STORY TELLER.
AUTHOR OF THE ACCLAIMED NOVEL 'THE HOUSE ON MANGO STREET' HAS JUST RELEASED A NEW CALLED 'MARTITA, I REMEMBER YOU'. IT'S AN ACCOUNT OF A STRUGGLING YOUNG WRITER IN PARIS.
SHE JOINS ME FROM HER HOME IN MEXICO.
SANDRA, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
FIRST OF ALL, I WAS REALLY SURPRISED TO HEAR THIS IS A STORY THAT YOU BEGAN WRITING IN THE LATE '80s, EARLY '90s, AND JUST CAME AROUND TO FINISHING NOW.
IT GIVES HOPE, I'M SURE, TO MANY WRITERS OUT THERE WHO ARE STRUGGLING TO FINISH THEIR OWN WORK.
WHY DID IT TAKE DECADES TO GET YOU HERE?
WELL, BECAUSE LIFE HAPPENS.
YOU'RE WRITING THIS STORY AND THEN IT DOESN'T FIT WITH THE COLLECTION YOU'RE WRITING AND YOU PUT IT ASIDE.
AND THEN YOU WANT TO WRITE A NOVEL, THEN YOU WANT TO WRITE POETRY, THEN YOUR MOTHER DICE -- DIES AND YOU HAVE TO DEAL WITH THAT.
LIFE HAPPENS, I'M SORRY, AND THAT'S WHAT I'M DEALING WITH.
WE ARE SO FORTUNATE THAT YOU WAITED ALL THIS TIME BECAUSE YOU WERE ABLE TO COME FULL CIRCLE AND APPROACH THIS STORY FROM A MORE MATURE AND EXPERIENCED PERSPECTIVE, AND IT FOCUSES ON THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THREE WOMEN WHO MEET IN PARIS IN THEIR 20s AND SORT OF GROW DISTANT.
YOU'VE DECIDED AND CHOSEN A PASSAGE TO READ FOR US, IF YOU DON'T MIND DOING THAT RIGHT NOW, AND WE CAN TALK ABOUT IT AFTER.
AT NIGHT DOORS SLAMMING, FOOTSTEPS IN THE HALL.
SOMEONE COUGHING ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE WALL.
I NEVER MEET ANY OF THE NEIGHBORS.
ALL THE TIME I'M THERE, ONLY FOOTSTEPS, COUGHS, AND AN AMBULANCE WAILING FROM A LONG WAY OFF.
SOMEBODY'S TELEVISION MURMURING A ROSARY.
MARTITA, I DON'T TELL YOU I'M AFRAID TO STAY HERE WITH THE COUGH ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE WALL, THE DARKNESS AND THAT HALL BATHROOM.
WHEN I HAVE TO GO MAKE PEE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT, I HOLD AND HOLD AND HOLD IT UNTIL THE NEXT DAY I HAVE CYSTITIS.
MARTITA, DON'T MAKE ME LAUGH OR I'LL WEE-WEE THE BED, AND THEN WHAT DO WE DO?
I'M AFRAID OF THE DARK.
I'M AFRAID HERE IN PARIS.
ARE YOU AFRAID SOMETIMES, TOO?
WHY DID YOU PICK THIS PASSAGE?
I'M JUST CURIOUS.
AND WHAT STORY IS IT TELLING?
WELL, THIS IS A PASSAGE FROM WHEN THE WOMEN ARE SHARING A LITTLE CANOE BED IN WHAT MARTHA CALLS THE BLACK HOLE OF CALCUTTA, HER APARTMENT THAT'S WAY IN THE BACK AND YOU'VE GOT TO CLIMB ALL THESE DARK STAIRS AND YOU HAVE TO SHARE A BATHROOM.
AND I FELT IT EXEMPLIFIED THE VULNERABILITY OF WHEN YEAR YOUNG AND TRAVELING AND WE HAVE TO DEPEND ON THE KINDNESS OF STRANGERS AND SLEEP IN STRANGE PLACES, EVEN WHEN WE'RE AFRAID, WE'RE TRYING TO BE BRAVE.
YOU KNOW, YOU TELL STORIES, YOUR BOOKS REALLY FOCUS ON THE CHICANA IDENTITY, ONE THAT IS CLOSE TO YOU BECAUSE IT IS YOURS.
YOU WERE BORN IN CHICAGO AND GREW UP THERE AND YOU WERE BORN TO MEXICAN AMERICANS AND YOU TALK ABOUT THE STRUGGLE THAT YOU'VE HAD THROUGHOUT YOUR LIFE OF TRYING TO IDENTIFY AS MORE OF AN AMERICAN AND IT REALLY WASN'T UNTIL YOU MOVED TO TEXAS WHERE YOU LIVED FOR MANY YEARS THAT YOU DID FEEL MORE AT HOME.
AND I'M WONDERING, WHAT WAS THE DIFFERENCE, ASIDE FROM THE COLD IN CHICAGO, THAT THE EXPERIENCE IN TEXAS GAVE YOU?
I THINK IT WAS JUST THE ABILITY TO SEE PEOPLE WHO HAD LIVED IN THE AMERICAS FOR CENTURIES, WHO HAD LIVED IN THE LAND THAT THEY WERE OCCUPYING BEFORE THE UNITED STATES WAS THE UNITED STATES, BEFORE IT WAS MEXICO.
PEOPLE WHO HAD ROOTS THERE, GOING BACK TO NATIVE TIME.
SO I KNEW THAT I FELT A LITTLE DISPLACED IN CHICAGO AND I NEEDED TO TRAVEL SOUTH TO FEEL I WAS CLOSER TO MY ROOTS.
AND EVEN TEXAS WASN'T ENOUGH.
I MOVED EVEN FURTHER SOUTH, 100 KILOMETERS FROM WHERE MY GRANDPARENTS LIVED BEFORE THEY IMMIGRATED TO THE UNITED STATES.
I LOVE HOW YOU SAID YOUR ANCESTORS CALLED YOU BACK TO MEXICO.
AND IT'S SO IMPORTANT FOR YOU, I KNOW, TO BE A MENTOR OF SORTS TO THE LATINA COMMUNITY IN THE UNITED STATES, AND I WAS REALLY STRUCK BY SOMETHING YOU SAID IN A PREVIOUS INTERVIEW.
YOU SAID IT'S VERY IMPORTANT THAT THEY READ ABOUT THEIR HISTORY AND KNOW WHO THEY ARE SO THEY CAN TAKE SOME PRIDE AND LIVE BEYOND MINIMUM WAGE.
YOU PUT INTO PERSPECTIVE THIS INVISIBLE CEILING THAT MANY DON'T REALIZE ENGULF SO MANY LATINAS IN THIS COUNTRY WHERE EVEN THEIR DREAMS HAVE LIMITS.
YOU HAVE TO KNOW WHO YOU ARE, YOU HAVE TO KNOW YOUR HISTORY TO HAVE PRIDE IN WHO YOU ARE.
BUT IF YOU'RE ALWAYS RELEGATED TO THE MARGINS OR THE ALAMO DEFINES WHO YOU ARE OR YOU DON'T KNOW YOUR STORY BEYOND THAT TOLD TO YOU BY THE DAUGHTERS OF THE REPUBLIC OF TEXAS, YOU'RE GOING TO GROW UP TO BE A VERY DAMAGED INDIVIDUAL.
I WAS LUCKY THAT MY FATHER WAS A MAMA'S BOY AND HE DRAGGED US TO VISIT HIS PARENTS IN MEXICO CITY EVERY COUPLE OF YEARS.
SO I GOT TO SEE MEXICO FIRSTHAND.
I GOT TO VISIT IT AND INDIRECTLY LEARN ABOUT ITS CULTURE WITHOUT MY FATHER INTENDING TO.
A SEED WAS PLANTED WITHIN ME SO THAT I KNEW WHO I WAS.
I LOVED BEING HERE.
AND WHO KNEW THAT DECADES LATER AS AN ADULT I WOULD MOVE BACK BECAUSE OF THAT LOVE.
SO ONCE YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE, SOMEONE CANNOT IMPOSE MIS-EDUCATION ON YOU.
YOU KNOW YOUR HISTORY, YOU'VE SEEN THE PYRAMIDS.
YOU KNOW WHAT YOUR PEOPLE ARE CAPABLE OF AND THAT GIVES YOU AN INNER CORE OF STRENGTH.
AND A FREEDOM OF SORTS.
WE SHOULD NOTE THIS BOOK HAS BEEN RELEASED IN BOTH ENGLISH AND SPANISH.
QUICKLY, MY LAST QUESTION FOR YOU, AS WE ALWAYS DESCRIBE AMERICA AS THE LAND OF IMMIGRANTS, WHY IS IT SO IMPORTANT FOR YOU TO HEAR FROM WRITERS WHO ARE IMMIGRANTS THEMSELVES TELLING THEIR STORIES?
YOU KNOW, A WRITER NEEDS PERMISSION TO TELL THEIR OWN STORY.
YOU NEED TO HEAR FROM YOUR COLLEAGUES OR TO READ A STORY THAT MAKES YOU RUN FOR YOUR PEN, AT LEAST THIS WRITER DOES.
AND SO WHEN I READ STORIES ABOUT YOU CAN BE AN IMMIGRANT FROM INDIA OR SOMEONE IN SRI LANKA, I FIND I'M ENCOURAGED AND GIVEN PERMISSION AND GIVEN EXAMPLES OF HOW TO TELL MY STORY.
I JUST FINISHED READING A STORY ABOUT CHINESE IMMIGRANTS IN SAN FRANCISCO YESTERDAY, 'BONE', AND THAT STORY, AGAIN, I'M RE-READING IT AFTER IT CAME OUT IN THE EARLY '90s.
IT TAUGHT ME AND GAVE ME PERMISSION HOW TO WRITE IN ENGLISH WHEN CHARACTERS ARE SPEAKING ANOTHER LANGUAGE, THEIR NATIVE LANGUAGE.
SO SOMETIMES YOU JUST NEED THAT.
PROOF THAT YOU NEVER STOP LEARNING AND THAT IS THE BEAUTY OF LIFE, RIGHT?
THANK YOU SO MUCH, SANDRA.
WE APPRECIATE IT.
CONGRATULATIONS ON THE BOOK.
THANKS.
> AND THAT IS IT FOR NOW.
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR WATCHING ON PBS.
JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.
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