She Was Demoted & Threatened. Then She Won the Nobel Prize

BIANNA GOLODRYGA, SENIOR GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well, now we turn to an extraordinary figure making an impact in the medical field. Dr. Katalin Kariko and her research partner were awarded the Nobel Prize in Medicine last month for their groundbreaking work on messenger RNA technology, a vital ingredient in COVID-19 vaccines. She joins Hari Sreenivasan to discuss this milestone and her new memoir, “Breaking Through: My Life in Science.”

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HARI SREENIVASAN, INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Dr. Katalin Kariko, thanks so much for joining us. For those of us who might have been under a rock, you got one of the greatest honors, which is the Nobel Prize in Medicine for your work in messenger RNA. And messenger RNA may have gotten into the pop culture. Unfortunately, it took us a pandemic to know what that was a little bit. But if you could describe, what is it that you and Drew Weissman did that got you this prize?

DR. KATALIN KARIKO, WINNER, NOBEL PRIZE IN MEDICINE: So, messenger RNA, as you just said, is a molecule which is present in our body. We did not invent it. Every living organism has this mRNA. What happened is we could produce this RNA, this messenger RNA, but it turned out that it was not feasible for medical use because it caused inflammation. And what we did, you know, all mRNA is made from four basic building blocks, and we had to change one of them, and then it became this messenger RNA, non-inflammatory. And that’s what was used in both in the Moderna and the BioNTech Pfizer vaccine, that modified RNA.

SREENIVASAN: So, this was the underlying technology, if you will, that was adapted and used throughout the pandemic. And that’s kind of — sure, that’s an enormous win onto itself. But what is the potential with the technology that you help perfect? What is messenger RNA and this type of drug delivery going to be able to do over time?

DR. KARIKO: Actually, this messenger RNA technology and the first companies was formed 20 years ago, more than 20 years ago, all of them tried to develop a vaccine for treating cancer. So, that was what was — how it was developed. And of course, it is still early (ph). Now, that we have better data now and more promising results, but it was also used for therapeutic purposes. And that was my — always my interest, to deliver an mRNA course for a therapeutic protein and that would — which already present in the body, but not in the right place, not enough. And actually, this is how was so used. And genetic diseases also treated right now. And in clinical trial, more than 250 clinical trial is ongoing where messenger RNA is used (INAUDIBLE) for therapies. So, there will be more vaccines, vaccines against viruses, bacteria, like bacteria causing Lyme disease. So, those are also under development. And even for parasites like malaria, clinical trials are ongoing. And of course, against, you know cancer, as well as, you know, these other therapeutic molecules. So that’s — as a platform and there will be more and more product will be developed.

SREENIVASAN: You have a new memoir out which is fantastic. It’s called “Breaking Through” and in it you describe that as you were coming up as a scientist, your mother was kind of waiting for your — you know, your name to be read over the radio as a winner of the Nobel Prize.

DR. KARIKO: Yes, indeed. But it was, like, even 10, 20 years ago, you know, that she was when — coming October, she said, oh, next week, maybe you will get the Nobel Prize. But, you know, at that point, I was not even a faculty position. So, I was not in that. And then I told her that it won’t happen. But she thought that I worked so much and that I should deserve. But I convinced her that all of the scientists are working very hard.

SREENIVASAN: Yes. Let me take our viewers back a little bit through your life and in this book. It is accurate to say that you grew up in literally dirt-poor surroundings. If you could tell us a bit about what your home was like in post-war Hungary. You describe a scenario where you didn’t have running water.

DR. KARIKO: Yes. But it was — for me, it was a paradise, you know, because we had a garden, we had animals there, chicken and pigs, and we had beautiful flowers there. And of course, yes, we — everybody in the neighborhood went to — you know, to get water to the street. And that was, you know — when we talked to each other, that was the chat room there.

SREENIVASAN: So, the water pump of the village was in the village chat room?

DR. KARIKO: Exactly. And, you know, in the school, more than 50 kids were in one class and it was, you know — but we were quiet and we had to listen. So, it was a different environment in. From outside it seems like, you know, it’s very deprived, but it was very vivid and very nurturing, and the teachers were great, and yes, you know, we had — up until 10 years old, we had no television, we had no refrigerator, and many other things. But I didn’t know that we don’t have nobody yet in the neighborhood. Yes. So — but we — you know, the nature which surrounded us was interesting. And, you know, getting — seeing the stork is coming back and the bird — you know, the birds. And I have — you know, we had chickens and we didn’t purchase those, you know, we took the eggs and the — you know, the sitting — the hand was sitting on it. And then, we could see how the chicken is coming out from the eggs. And that’s so it is great.

SREENIVASAN: Yes. So, what is it do you think that inspired your kind of interest in education?

DR. KARIKO: Yes. So, yes, indeed. As I mentioned, my sister was three years older. And you know what happens when your sister is studying well, the teachers in this tiny village, you know, everybody’s expecting you that you will be good as well. And so, I had to be good because they expected. And of course, you know, I was challenged with a different competition. We could participate. And when I prepared and I was winning, you know, it gave me more enthusiasm to study more. And then, eventually I was — in eighth grade I was served best in the country in biology. And so, that’s what — how it started.

SREENIVASAN: You talk, you know, interestingly about some of the first times you were watching TV and kind of binge watching American or western television. And one of the shows that keeps coming up in this memoir is “Columbo,” the sort of fumbling detective show back in the ’70s. Why “Columbo”? What does it have to do with sort of the scientific method that’s helped define your life?

DR. KARIKO: Yes. So, in science, actually, all — many things is what happened in “Columbo,” you know, that you have an idea, create a hypothesis, and that, you know, in the “Columbo,” at the beginning, we knew that who committed the crime. But, you know, that looking at the thing in science, also, you kind of create that, oh, probably this is, you know, how things happen. And then, you look at closer and then everything fits, but there is always a little clue there, which is not fitting there. And so, what they call it, you know, even for medicine is a tunnel vision. The patient comes there and you see that the sign and then you conclude what is wrong. But one thing is not fitting and that’s what is important. You will never ignore that little thing. Because “Columbo” showed that this little thing will lead you to the right perpetrator. And in our case, the solution were answer.

SREENIVASAN: Tell me about the decision that you made to try to come to the United States for academic opportunity. I mean, why did you make that leap in the first place compared to the laboratories that you were working in Hungary?

DR. KARIKO: So, I lost my position there. We lost funding for this research we were doing in Hungary. And I might say that four times I am not terminated in my position. We wouldn’t talk today because that was part of it. And it is very important I emphasize that, you know, the decision was made and I did not spend time to feeling sorry for myself, but rather focused on what I should do next. And that was the mantra Janos Shaya (ph), the Hungarian scientist said, how you can handle stress that you always focus on what you can change. And when I was in high school, we read his book. And then I — again, if I don’t read that book, probably I’m not talking here because he — we learned that how to handle the stress and focusing on things we can change. And that’s why also that everything you have to look at the positivity. And when I received the other awards, I said, thank you to all of the people try to make my life miserable, because they — we work harder and I get improved.

SREENIVASAN: You point out that, really, even though you published your research with Drew Weissman years before the pandemic, it really wasn’t cited hundreds or thousands of times until the pandemic hit. That’s when people really started to — right? So, there might be so much other research that has been done and published that we’re not really aware of or interested in until kind of a crisis moment forces us to start looking for answers.

DR. KARIKO: Yes. You know, so that’s how science is. You know, that me in Hungary, when I started to work, my supervisor came from the industry. So, it’s very rare that somebody in the academia is coming from the industry. It is usually the different — the opposite direction. And then, it instilled from the first day that what we are doing has to be useful for something. And that’s every time — even if I was working at anywhere, you know, always thinking that what it would be useful for. So, you know, that I’m doing something. And many scientists started thinking on the same way. And I mean, more and more companies created in the university setting and, you know, the ideas were spent out and they test out. And so, that’s the way to get to recognize. I tried the same. 2005, we published. 2006, you know, we — Drew Weissman, we made the company. But we couldn’t get the patent for our own company. That’s maybe another one. That’s what’s painful for me from PEN that, you know, they did not give us the patent. And so, our company could not be functioning.

SREENIVASAN: A lot of people wonder about kind of the infrastructure that’s necessary to produce the type of work and the pace of work that you were able to produce over the years. And you attribute a lot of that to your supportive husband. And then, you’ve also mentioned before that we need better childcare. Explain that.

DR. KARIKO: Exactly. High quality and affordable childcare is — would be very important to have here. I was lucky in Hungary when my daughter was born in 1982. And three months later, I could take her to the childcare center. You know, it was — you know, and I could go to work and then come back, pick her up. They gave — provided clothes, food. They gave them vaccine. I just have to sign. There were — a registered nurse was present in it. And then, every day, there are pediatrician came to this nursery. And then, I could leave a message, is it normal or something? Or, you know, they were like, OK, noted, or you have to go to a specialist, but it is normal. Because I — this was my first child and I didn’t know what is normal and not. And then, when I worked, I was relaxed because I know that people who — professionals they are there with my child. And you know, I didn’t have to worry that it is an old lady, maybe she gets sick and then my child is unattended. So, that’s kind of thing. And the nominal fee. This is so — it was just a nominal fee based on how much income I have and then we had to pay. So, that, you know, I can see that here if somebody is not wealthy enough to get a nanny or somebody then they won’t be able to work, a way required by the research, and that’s what women is doing. They give up their dream, their job, and they take lower level of job because, you know, everybody’s looking at us, the women. And of course, we also feel that, OK, we have to do it. So, the child is playing. I have to stay home. I have to help. And for elderly parents also, it’s all — the women are doing that. And so, I usually tell the young girls that, you know, find the right husband.

SREENIVASAN: One of the things I wonder is how do you feel about our kind of national, at least in the United States, conversation around science over the couple of years of the pandemic. I mean, you write, there’s such a gap between what people know and what they would need to know to fully understand the vaccines and medicines that save lives. That gap right now is wide open for exploitation. We must somehow close it. I mean, because even though the vaccines were saving lives and we could see that result, there was still such a debate about whether or not the vaccines worked.

DR. KARIKO: Yes. So, that was absolutely surprising for me, because I remember when I was growing up in Hungary that we had a vaccine for many different things. And we were happy that we had vaccines so we will be protected. And I have to say that when people don’t understand something, you know, that they try to come up with, think or they are reading something and somebody comes up with a stupid idea and then they just believe that, because, you know, when — you know, you see a storm and, you know, like even long time ago they said, OK, Zeus is angry. And then, that’s why we have. So, that’s explanation. So, they need explanation. And then, if somebody provide them something, which is stupid, then they take and start to believe that that’s happened. Somebody wants to put a chip on the vaccine, somebody wants to kill us, somebody wants to follow us. And I don’t know this — why people are so sensitive for this kind of distorted view. But what I think it is maybe you need psychologists and different science field experts to come up with a solution how we could fight, you know, misinformation.

SREENIVASAN: So, if the president of the United States comes to you and asks you for advice on preparing for what might be the next pandemic, I mean, what would your prescription be? Is it science education? Is it about misinformation, along with the actual hard science? Where should we be investing our time and resources in preparing?

DR. KARIKO: Definitely. So, that’s why I offered my time to — you know, for education, to talk to the reporters together. We have to somehow simplify the language, which is the sciences, you know, we use terms that nobody understands. But — so, we have to simplify it, help the public to understand better. You see, not just the mRNA, people learn too, they learn PCR, you know, they can learn and then they have some idea what it could be and we have to have them. And of course, the next pandemic, we need other preparedness, you know, which — with mRNA, you know, we can respond very quickly, but definitely the gap is so huge. And then, those people who provided misinformation, they also actually profited from that.

SREENIVASAN: Thank you so much, Doctor, for talking with us and congratulations again on the Nobel Prize.

DR. KARIKO: Thank you. Thank you, Hari. Thank you.