Ta-Nehisi Coates On Visit to Israel/West Bank: “An Immoral Apartheid Regime”

>>> NOW, OUR NEXT GUEST SAYS THAT HE MUST CONFRONT THE TRUTH, NO MATTER HOW DIFFERENT.

THE AWARD WINNING JOURNALIST TA-NEHISI COATES IS DOING EXACTLY THAT IN HIS NEW BOOK "THE MESSAGE" IN WHICH HE JOURNEYS TO SENEGAL, ISRAEL AND THE OCCUPIED WEST BANK, AND HE IS JOINING MICHEL MARTIN TO DISCUSS WHAT HE FOUND.

>> THANKS, CHRISTIANE.

TA-NEHISI COATES, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME, MICHEL.

>> I'M SURE A LOT OF PEOPLE KNOW YOUR PREVIOUS WORK, ESPECIALLY "BETWEEN THE WORLD AND ME."

BUT IN THIS NEW BOOK, YOU GO TO THREE DIFFERENT PLACES.

YOU WRITE ABOUT YOUR TRIPS TO THREE DIFFERENT PLACE, TO SENEGAL, TO SOUTH CAROLINA, AND TO ISRAEL AND TO THE PALESTINIAN TERRITORIES.

YOU'VE ALREADY GOTTEN A LOT OF ATTENTION FOR THIS BOOK.

SOME OF IT QUITE HEATED, IT HAS TO BE SAID.

BUT I WANT TO START WITH YOU START IN THE BOOK, WHICH IS SENEGAL.

I MEAN, THIS YOUR FIRST TRIP THERE.

YOU DESCRIBE THESE FEELINGS OF REAL DISQUIET WHILE YOU WERE THERE, SORT OF FEAR, JUST SADNESS, AND A KIND OF HEAVINESS.

CAN YOU JUST DESCRIBE WHY, OR WHAT IT IS THAT YOU WERE FEELING?

AND WHY YOU THINK YOU WERE FEELING THAT?

>> YOU KNOW, I'M OF THE GENERATION OF CHILDREN BORN IN I GUESS THE '70s, OR MAYBE IT STARTED IN THE LATE '60s WHERE IT BECAME POPULAR TO GIVE YOUR KIDS AFRICAN NAMES AND TO REALLY RAISE CHILDREN WITH DIFFERENT VIEWS AND DIFFERENT NOTIONS OF AFRICA AND DIFFERENT IDEAS OF AFRICA.

AND THAT EFFORT REALLY WAS TO OVERCOME A VERY RACIST TELLING AND STORIES OF WHAT AFRICA WAS AND THUS TO JUSTIFY THE TREATMENT OF AFRICAN AMERICANS.

AND THAT IN TURN WAS COUNTER WITH DIFFERENT FERGUSONS OF HISTORY.

SOME OF THEM THEMSELVES QUITE MYTHICAL.

BUT HERE I WAS CONFRONTED WITH THE REAL THING.

NO MORE STORIES.

NO MORE NARRATIVES.

THIS IS IT, BUDDY.

THIS IS ACTUALLY WHAT IT IS, YOU KNOW.

AND I WAS GOING TO BE CRAFTING STORIES OF MY OWN, TO SAY NOTHING OF THE FACT THAT I ACTUALLY TOOK FOR GRANTED THAT THIS REALLY WAS A CLICHED AS IT WAS, THE MOTHERLAND.

THAT WAS REALLY WHERE I WAS GOING.

I JUST WAS TERRIBLY AFFECTED.

AND MAYBE I WAS NOT TOTALLY PREPARED TO BE AFFECTED.

>> CAN I THROW SOMETHING OUT.

WERE YOU AFRAID YOU WOULD BE DISAPPOINTED?

THE AGE I WENT.

I UNDERSTAND A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE AFRAID.

BUT ACTUALLY AS I'M REFLECTING ON YOUR QUESTION, MAYBE I WAS.

ONE OF THE THINGS I TALK ABOUT IS LURKING IN THE BACK OF MY MIND, WHAT IF ALL OF THOSE RACIST NARRATIVES WERE ACTUALLY TRUE, YOU KNOW.

THAT'S TERRIBLE TO ADMIT, YOU KNOW.

BUT CERTAINLY THAT WAS IN THE BACK OF MIND THAT SOMETHING THAT WAS HAUNTING ME.

I DIDN'T EXPECT TO BE WELCOMED WITH DRUMS AND, YOU KNOW, WELCOME HOME, BROTHER.

>> BROTHER, YES.

>> I DIDN'T EXPECT ANY OF THAT.

THAT WASN'T WHAT I WAS LOOKING FOR.

BUT LIKE I SAID, IT'S TERRIBLE TO ADMIT.

PERHAPS I FEARED THAT I WOULD NOT FIND A CITY IN DAKAR OF HUMAN BEINGS.

>> THAT IS A HARD THING TO ADMIT.

SO WHAT DO YOU THINK YOU FOUND THERE THAT IS IMPORTANT TO THE OVERALL NARRATIVE THAT YOU'RE SHARING IN THIS BOOK?

>> YOU KNOW, THE FIRST ESSAY, AND I GUESS WE'LL TALK ABOUT THIS IN THE MINUTE, AND THE LAST IN CONVERSATION WITH EACH OTHER.

WHEN YOU'VE HAD A HORRIFIC, VIOLENT EVENT HAPPEN TO YOU SUCH THAT IT REALLY BREAKS LINEAGE AND BREAKS TIME, HOW DO YOU RECONSTRUCT YOURSELF?

HOW DO YOU RECONSTRUCT YOURSELF IN A WAY THAT IS TRUTHFUL, REFLECTS YOUR ETHICS, TELL THE STORIES THAT YOU REALLY FEEL LIKE EMBODY YOUR SENSE OF JUSTICE.

I THINK THERE IS GREAT TEMPTATION WHEN YOU SUFFER THROUGH AN EXPERIENCE LIKE WE HAVE AND THE HUMILIATION THAT COMES WITH IT.

TO GO COMPLETELY IN THE OTHER DIRECTION, YOU KNOW, AND MAYBE IGNORE SOME OF THE REALITY THAT ACTUALLY MAKES YOU A HUMAN BEING.

SENEGAL, DAKAR WAS REALLY MY OPPORTUNITY TO CONFRONT SOME OF THOSE STORIES AND SOME OF THOSE IDEAS THAT ACTUALLY I WAS RAISE ON MYSELF, THAT EMBODY MY VERY NAME, ACTUALLY.

>> IN STORY, I GUESS, AS YOU WOULD SAY, IN STORY, THEY WERE EMBODIED IN STORY, AND THAT STORY KIND OF INFILTRATED YOU IN WAYS THAT YOU PERHAPS WERE NOT REALLY AWARE OF.

SO THEN MAY OF 2023, YOU VISITED ISRAEL AND THE PALESTINIAN TERRITORIES.

SO IN THE BOOK, YOU DRAW PARALLELS BETWEEN JIM CROW AMERICA AND THE ISRAELI OCCUPATION OF THESE TERRITORIES.

YOU CALLED IT SEPARATE UNEQUAL ALIVE AND WELL.

YOU SAY IT'S A PLACE WITH A GLARE OF RACISM BURNED MORE INTENSELY THAN ANYWHERE ELSE IN YOUR LIFE THAN YOU HAD EVER SEEN.

>> YEAH.

>> SO TELL US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHY YOU SAY THAT.

>> YOU KNOW, THERE ARE TWO SIDES.

WHILE THERE IS A PART OF ME THAT DOES NOT LIKE MIXING IT UP AND FIGHTING WITH PEOPLE, THERE IS ALSO A PART OF ME THAT SAYS THERE IS SOMETHING DISHONORABLE AND ACTUALLY UNLOVING ABOUT WITNESSING CERTAIN THINGS THAT YOU THINK ARE IMPORTANT AND NOT SAYING ANYTHING ABOUT THEM.

THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS I WENT TO THE OLD CITY OF JERUSALEM ON TWO DIFFERENT TIMES.

THE FIRST TIME I WENT IN THE WAY THAT TYPICALLY PALESTINIAN MUSLIMS GO.

AND WE WERE HELD FOR ABOUT 45 MINUTES FOR ARMED GUARDS BEFORE THEY GAVE US ENTRANCE.

THERE WAS NO VISA -- >> YOU WENT TO AL AQSA?

>> THE AL AQSA MOSQUE.

NO REASONING WAS GIVEN ON ANYTHING LIKE THAT.

THEY JUST HELD US BECAUSE THEY COULD.

AND WHEN I CAME BACK, THE WAY AN AMERICAN TOURIST MIGHT COME OR A CHRISTIAN TEMPLE MIGHT COME, IT WAS SO EASY.

I JUST BREEZED THROUGH.

IT WAS THE EASIEST THING IN THE WORLD.

THIS CONTROL OF TIME AND SPACE EXTENDED OUT INTO THE WEST BANK WHERE THERE ARE ROADS FOR PALESTINIANS AND THERE ARE ROADS FOR ISRAELI SETTLERS, WHICH IMMEDIATELY SET OFF.

YOU GOT TWO DIFFERENT ROADS FOR TWO DIFFERENT CLASSES OF PEOPLE THAT IMMEDIATELY SETS OFF ALARM BELLS FOR ME.

YOU'RE SEEING IN THE TERRITORY, AND YOU CAN SEE ONE PLACE WHERE SETTLEMENTS ARE AND WHERE SETTLERS LIVE.

AND THEY'RE MARKED IN A CERTAIN WAY.

AND THEN YOU CAN SEE OTHER AREAS WHERE THE PALESTINIAN VILLAGES AND HAMLETS, AND WHERE THEY LIVE.

AND YOU CAN SEE THAT THESE ARE COMPLETELY SEPARATE.

YOU GO TO THE OLD CITY OF HEBRON, AS I HAVE TALKED ABOUT.

AND THERE ARE STREETS WHERE I AM WALKED DOWN IF IT IS MADE CLEAR TO THE GUARDS THAT MY MOTHER WAS A CHRISTIAN, I AM A CHRISTIAN AND MY GRANDMOTHER IS A CHRISTIAN.

BUT MY PALESTINIAN GUIDES DO NOT HAVE ACCESS TO.

THAT'S JUST IN BRIEF WHAT I SAW.

SO MUCH MORE.

BE UP THAT SETS OFF CERTAIN THINGS FOR ME.

AND THEN I CAME BACK AND HAD TO DO THE READING AND THE RESEARCH ON TOP OF THAT TO UNDERSTAND THE GOVERNANCE AND THE STRUCTURES THAT ARE BENEATH AND MAKE THAT POSSIBLE AND IN SOME WAYS MANDATE THAT.

AND I WAS LEFT WITH THE CONCLUSION AND THE FACT WHAT I WAS WITNESSING WAS SEPARATE AND UNEQUAL.

THAT IT WAS THE CLOSEST THAT I WOULD SEE IN MY TIME TO THE JIM CROW THAT MY PARENTS WERE BORN INTO.

>> SO IS THERE A POINT AT WHICH YOU SAID TO YOURSELF I CANNOT ONLY JUST SEE THIS, I HAVE TO WRITE ABOUT IT AND ACCEPT WHATEVER COMES WITH MY WRITING ABOUT IT IN THIS WAY?

WAS THERE A PIVOTAL MOMENT?

OR WAS THAT ALWAYS THE PLAN?

>> THAT WAS ALWAYS THE PLAN.

BUT I KNEW BY SAYING -- I KNEW THIS IS GOING TO BE HARD.

THIS IS GOING TO BE ROUGH.

>> SAY MORE ABOUT WHAT'S HARD?

WHAT IS HARD?

>> I DON'T LIKE HURTING PEOPLE'S FEELINGS, MAN.

I'M KIND OF LAUGHING, BUT IT'S ACTUALLY TRUE.

I DON'T ENJOY TELLING PEOPLE THINGS, TELLING PEOPLE UNPLEASANT THINGS.

AND TO BE REALLY I GUESS DIRECT WITH YOU, THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO I HAVE HAD IN MY LIFE WHO I CARE ABOUT, SOME WHO HAVE BEEN COLLEAGUES OF MINE, I'VE SPENT VERY INTIMATE TIME AROUND WHOSE FEELINGS THIS WILL HURT.

VERY, VERY DIFFERENT VIEW OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL THAN I DO, HAVE TIES TO IT.

I BELIEVE WHAT I WITNESSED WAS AN IMMORALAL APARTHEID REGIME.

THOSE ARE MY CONCLUSIONS.

THAT'S WHAT I SAY IN THE BOOK.

I DON'T TAKE SAYING THAT LIGHTLY.

I WOULD NEVER NOT FEEL LIKE I HAVE TO SAY IT.

BUT I DID BASED ON WHAT I WITNESSED AND WHAT I READ AFTERWARDS.

>> SO YOUR CORE CONCLUSIONS ARE IT'S AN APARTHEID REGIME.

THE LIFE THERE FOR PALESTINIANS IS UNBEARABLE.

IT'S UNBEARABLE.

IT'S DEMEANING.

IT'S DEHUMANIZING.

AND IT'S MORALLY UNJUSTIFIABLE.

WOULD THAT BE -- >> THAT WOULD BE CORRECT.

THAT WOULD BE CORRECT.

AND I WANT TO ADD TWO THINGS TO THAT.

THE FIRST THING, I KNOW THIS WORTH APARTHEID IS HARSH.

>> IT'S FRAUGHT.

>> I DON'T WANT PEOPLE TO THINK I'M JUST THROWING THAT AROUND CASUALLY.

IT WAS NOT JUST WHAT I OBSERVED.

IT WAS READING THE REPORTS OF AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL WHERE THEY MADE THE CASE FOR APARTHEID.

IT WAS READING THE REPORTS OF THE HUMAN RIGHTS, THE ISRAELI HUMAN RIGHTS GROUP WHERE THEY MADE THE CASE FOR APARTHEID.

IT WAS READING HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH AND THEIR REPORTS.

IT WAS READING THE REPORTS OF AL HAQQ.

IT WAS READING THE WORDS AND THE QUOTES OF PEOPLE LIKE FORMER PRIME MINISTER EHUD BARACK OR EHUD OMAR, AND WARNING THAT ISRAEL WAS IN FACT TIPPING INTO APARTHEID.

THAT IS REALLY WHAT IT WAS ROOTED IN.

SO I KNOW THAT IS A HEAVY WORD FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE.

BUT I DON'T WANT THEM TO THINK THAT I'M SORT OF CASUALLY LOBBING GRENADES FOR THE HECK OF IT.

>> SO LET ME GO INTO SOME OF THE CRITICISM OF THE WORK.

THE BOOK IS JUST OUT, BUT A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE ALREADY READ IT.

SOME OF THE CRITICISM IS YOU WENT FOR TEN DAYS.

YOU WENT FOR TEN DAYS.

THIS IS A NATION STATE THAT HAS EXISTED IN ITS CURRENT FORM FOR 75 YEARS AT THIS POINT.

BUT THESE ARE PEOPLE WHO HAVE INDIGENOUS CLAIMS TO THIS LAND FOR CENTURIES.

YOU HAVE -- NOT JUST THE PALESTINIANS HAVE INDIGENOUS CLAIMS TO THIS LAND, BUT ALSO THE HEBREW PEOPLE, THE JEWISH PEOPLE HAVE INDIGENOUS CLAIMS TO THIS LAND.

AND THESE BORDERS HAVE MOVED BACK AND FORTH FOR CENTURIES.

THIS IS ONE OF THE THINGS PEOPLE OFTEN CRITICIZE JOURNALISTS FOR.

THEY SAY OH, YOU GO SOME PLACE FOR TEN DAYS AND THEN YOU'RE ENTITLED TO THE TELL THE WORLD ABOUT IT.

WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THAT?

>> WHAT I SAY TO THAT IS THERE ARE THINGS THAT WE HOLD IN OR MORAL THAT WE WITNESS THAT CONTEXT, 600-WORD BOOKS, REPORTS, EVEN MORE TIME WON'T MAKE OKAY.

THERE IS NOTHING THAT I CAN IMAGINE THAT I WILL SEE THAT WILL MAKE IT OKAY THAT ONE GROUP OF PEOPLE LIVES IN A SETTLEMENT AND ANOTHER GROUP OF PEOPLE LIVES IN A VILLAGE AND THERE IS PERHAPS HALF A MILE BETWEEN THOSE TWO GROUPS OF PEOPLE.

AND ONE GROUP HAS DIRECT ACCESS TO WATER AND THE OTHER DOES NOT THERE.

IS VERY LITTLE THAT I CAN IMAGINE, THERE IS NOTHING I CAN IMAGINE SEEING THAT ALLOWS FOR A SOCIETY IN WHICH THERE ARE TIERS OF CITIZENSHIP, BUT AT THE TOP TIER OF THAT IS A GROUP OF PEOPLE BE THEY JEWISH OR WHOEVER, BUT IN THIS CASE BECAUSE IT'S ISRAEL, THE JEWISH WHO HAVE THE TOP TIER OF CITIZENSHIP.

AND EVERYONE ELSE IS SOMETHING LESS.

THERE IS NOT SOMETHING THAT I WOULD HAVE SEEN IN 30 MORE DAYS.

AND I WILL ADD THAT EVEN THAT CRITICISM IS FAMILIAR TO ME, BECAUSE, IN FACT, DURING THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT, WHEN WHITE SOUTHERNERS WOULD OFTEN SAY YOU WHITE NORTHERNERS WHO COME DOWN HERE STIRRING UP TROUBLE, YOU DON'T KNOW THE NEGRO LIKE WE DO.

YOU HAVEN'T BEEN DOWN HERE.

YOU DON'T LIVE DOWN HERE.

YOU DON'T REALLY KNOW WHAT IT IS.

>> YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND THE SITUATION.

>> YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND THE SITUATION.

BUT IF YOU ASK THE BLACK FOLKS THERE, THEY WOULD TELL YOU UNDERSTAND IT PERFECTLY.

YOU KNOW?

AND SO I JUST -- I GET IT.

I GET THAT I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW MORE.

I WOULD LIKE TO DO MORE.

BUT I CAN'T HELP BUT FEEL IF I HAD A DIFFERENT POLITICAL PERSPECTIVE ON THIS, THE VERY PEOPLE WHO ARE CRITICIZING MY JUST ONLY GOING THERE FOR TEN DAYS WOULD THINK TEN DAYS WERE ACTUALLY QUITE ENOUGH.

>> THE OTHER CRITICISM IS YOU DID NOT INCLUDE IN THE BOOK PEOPLE WHO DEFEND THE GOVERNMENT.

IN FACT, YOU CRITICIZE THE IDEA OF WHAT WE CALL -- WHAT WE HAVE STARTED TO CALL BOTH SIDING THE ISSUE, ESPECIALLY IN JOURNALISM.

BUT I STILL WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT YOUR UNWILLINGNESS TO INCLUDE FOR PURPOSES OF THIS REPORT OTHER VIEWS BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, WE ARE CONSTANTLY BEING INSTRUCTED, ESPECIALLY IN THIS VERY POLARIZED TIME THAT THAT'S FUNDAMENTAL TO EMPATHY.

AND IF WE DON'T AT LEAST ENGAGE IN THAT PRACTICE, THAT WE'RE NOT BEING TRUE TO THAT FUNDAMENTAL VALUE OF TRYING TO SEE OTHER PEOPLE AS HUMANS.

HOW DO YOU ANSWER THAT?

>> THE FIRST THING I WOULD SAY IS THE PRO-ISRAEL POINT OF VIEW, THE ZIONIST POINT OF VIEW, THOSE WHO VIEW THE ZIONIST PROJECT AS A GOOD THING, AS A MORAL THING, AS A JUST THING, THEY'RE NOT UNREPRESENTED IN THE VEHICLES OF AMERICAN MEDIA, IN OUR NEWSPAPERS AND OUR MAGAZINES AND OUR TELEVISION SHOWS.

THAT VIEWPOINT IS NOT UNREPRESENTED.

ON THE CONTRARY, IT'S ONE THAT I WAS VERY MUCH EXPOSED TO.

AND WITH THE PURPOSE OF THAT LAST ESSAY REALLY IS, IS I AM SOMEONE WHO WENT SOMEWHERE AND SAW SOMETHING AND CAME BACK STRUGGLING WITH HOW IT COULD BE THAT WHAT I SAW WAS SO DIFFERENT THAN WHAT -- THAN THE STORY THAT I WAS CONSUMING IN MY MEDIA ON A REGULAR BASIS.

AND I REALLY WANTED TO UNDERSTAND WHY.

AND I THOUGHT THAT THE WAY TO DO THAT, MY TOOL FOR DOING THAT WAS TO PRIVILEGE THE WORDS OF THOSE WHO I BELIEVE HAVE BEEN UNJUSTLY PUSHED OUT OF THE FRAME.

AND THAT IS, YOU KNOW, THE PALESTINIANS.

MY FEELING IS THAT MANY OF THE PUBLICATIONS THAT WILL LODGE THAT CRITICISM WOULD DO WELL TO LOOK AT THEIR OWN BY-LINES AND COUNT HOW MANY PALESTINIANS THEY'VE PUBLISHED OVER THE PAST 10 OR 15 YEARS.

AND SO IT IS QUITE RICH TO ME THAT I AM BEING CRITICIZED OR THAT I WOULD BE CRITICIZED FOR NOT TALKING TO PEOPLE WHO WILL DEFEND WHAT I BELIEVE TO BE AN UNJUST ORDER, YOU KNOW, IN PUBLICATIONS THAT I ACTUALLY THINK ARE PART OF HOW THAT ORDER MAINTAINS ITSELF.

WHEN YOU DON'T ALLOW PEOPLE TO SPEAK, WHEN YOU DON'T ALLOW THEM A PLACE NOT JUST IN YOUR INDIVIDUAL WORK, BUT IN THE ENTIRETY OF THE CONVERSATION, IT BECOMES A LOT EASIER TO DO THINGS TO THEM.

>> YOU KNOW I -- I'M WONDERING IF, THOUGH -- IS THE FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEM HERE THAT ONE FAITH GROUP IS PRIVILEGED OVER OTHER FAITH GROUPS?

BECAUSE THAT IS NOT UNIQUE TO ISRAEL.

ISRAEL'S NOT THE ONLY COUNTRY THAT PRIVILEGES ONE FAITH GROUP OVER ANOTHER FAITH GROUP.

THE FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEM HERE THAT ISRAEL IS SEEN AS DIFFERENT, THAT ISRAEL CEASE ITSELF AS DIFFERENT?

>> I JUST WANT TO MAKE SURE I'M NOT EXCLUDEING A VERY IMPORTANT GROUP OF PEOPLE HERE, AND THAT'S PALESTINIAN CHRISTIANS, WHO I INTERVIEWED SOME OF AND FELT AS DISCRIMINATED AGAINST AS ANYBODY ELSE.

THERE IS AN INCIDENT I DESCRIBE HAPPEN IN HEBRON WHERE I'M ASKED MY RELIGION.

BUT YOU KNOW WHAT IS VERY INTERESTING ABOUT THAT?

I WAS ALSO ASKED MY MOTHER'S AND MY GRANDMOTHER'S RELIGION.

WHEN YOU START ASKING THAT, YOU ARE ASKING SOMETHING BESIDES DO I ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS MY PERSONAL SAVIOR.

THERE IS SOMETHING DEEPER GOING ON.

YOU KNOW, THERE IS GREAT EVIL IN THIS WORLD, YOU KNOW, AND I AM WARY OF SINGLING ISRAEL OUT AS SOMEHOW SINGULAR OR MORE EVIL OR WHATEVER, BUT THE POINT I WOULD MAKE IS I AM RESPONSIBLE AS AN AMERICAN, AND PARTICULARLY AS A CITIZEN OF A COUNTRY THAT TAKES SOMEBODY LIKE MARTIN LUTHER KING AS ITS PATRON SAINT, THAT WALKS AROUND TALKING ABOUT WITH GREAT PRIDE ABOUT THE TRIUMPHS OF THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT AND EQUALITY, HOW CAN I THEN GO TO A COUNTRY WHERE WE BOAST ABOUT OUR SPECIAL RELATIONSHIP WITH AND SEE A TWO-TIERED SOCIETY LITERALLY WITH CITIZENSHIP DECIDED BY ETHNICITY, RELIGION, AND RIGHTS ARE DECIDED BY ETHNICITY AND RELIGION, AND THEN JUST SAY YOU KNOW WHAT?

THERE IS A LOT OF OTHER EVIL IN THE WORLD TOO AND TURN MY BACK.

I JUST DON'T HAVE THAT IN ME TO DO THAT.

>> BEFORE I LET YOU GO, AND I'VE BEEN STRUGGLING TO FIND THIS PASSAGE, BUT THIS IS WHEN YOU WERE WALKING AT THE MEMORIAL TO THE HOLOCAUST, YOU WRITE -- SO THIS IS ANOTHER STORY ABOUT WRITING ABOUT POWER, ABOUT SETTLING ACCOUNTS, A STORY NOT OF REDEMPTION, BUT OF REPARATION.

WHO ARE YOU TALKING TO?

>> MYSELF.

WELL, I WAS TALKING TO MY STUDENTS.

I THINK THAT YOUR IMAGINATION HAS TO BE SLIGHTLY AHEAD AND MAYBE EVEN MORE AHEAD THAN THE PRESENT POLITICS.

AND I THINK THERE IS GREAT, GREAT DANGER IN THINKING THAT BECAUSE YOU LACK POWER IN A PARTICULAR MOMENT, YOU DON'T HAVE THE ABILITY TO HURT AND DAMAGE OTHER PEOPLE.

I AM NOT IN THAT CASE MAKING A NARROW CRITIQUE OF ISRAEL OR OF ZIONISM.

THIS IS I THINK A VERY, VERY HUMAN IMPULSE TO THINK THAT BECAUSE YOU WENT THROUGH SOME HORRIFIC EXPERIENCE, YOU THEREFORE HAVE A KIND OF MORAL AUTHORITY AND ARE THEREFORE THEN NOT CAPABLE OF INFLICTING HORRORS ON OTHER PEOPLE.

AND AS MUCH AS I FEEL LIKE I SAW THAT, YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN, IN MY TRAVELS OVER THERE, I MEAN, I WAS TALKING TO US TOO.

I WAS VERY MUCH TALKING TO US TOO.

AND I THINK THAT WAS REALLY IMPORTANT FOR ME TO SAY.

>> TA-NEHISI COATES, THANK YOU FOR SPEAKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU, MICHEL.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.