Taiwan’s Fmr. Minister of Digital Affairs on AI, Elections, and China

>>> NOW, WHEN IT COMES TO ANY ELECTION, TECHNOLOGY IS THE MAIN TOOL THAT'S USED TO SHARE IMPORTANT INFORMATION.

SO HOW CAN IT BE LEVERAGED TO TACKLE FAKE CONTENT?

OUR NEXT GUEST IS AN EXPERT IN THIS FIELD.

AUDREY TANG, TAIWAN'S FORMER DIGITAL AFFAIRS MINISTER, HAS USED A WIDE RANGE OF STRATEGIES TO ADDRESS THIS PROBLEM WITH A BOOK CALLED "PLURALITY."

IT DETAILS HOW THE INTERNET, WHICH IS A DIVISIVE SPACE FOR SO MANY, CAN ALSO PROVIDE IMMENSE OPPORTUNITIES FOR BRIDGE-BUILDING AND COLLABORATION.

TANG EXPLAINS HOW TO HARI SREENIVASAN.

>> CHRISTIANE, THANKS.

AUDREY TANG, THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

YOU ARE THE FORMER MINISTER OF DIGITAL AFFAIRS OF TAIWAN, AND YOU'RE THE CO-AUTHOR OF A NEW BOOK CALLED "PLURALITY," AN OPEN SOURCE BOOK.

FIRST, WHAT IS PLURALITY.

WHY THIS TITLE?

WHY THIS IDEA?

>> PLURALITY MEANS COLLABORATION ACROSS DIVERSITY AND THE TECHNOLOGY THAT ENABLES THIS KIND OF COLLABORATION.

THINK ABOUT TEN YEARS AGO WHEN UBER FIRST CAME TO TAIWAN.

THERE IS PRO TAXI, PRO UBER PARTS, BUT INSTEAD OF REPEATING THE DIVISIONS WE CODED UP OPEN SOURCE TECHNOLOGIES TO LET PEOPLE SEE THE BRIDGES ACROSS THE DIFFERENT CAMPS.

AND SO WE VERY QUICKLY SETTLED -- I WOULDN'T SAY COMPROMISE.

A CO-CREATED SOLUTION THAT MADE IT PROBLEM SOLVED WITH THIS SOCIETY'S INPUT.

THAT'S PLURALITY.

AND IT'S OPEN SOURCE, JUST LIKE THE TECHNOLOGY WE USE.

SO ANYBODY CAN TAKE A COPY ONLINE AND DOWNLOAD THAT PLURALITY AND CONTRIBUTE.

>> YOU MENTIONED THIS TENSION BETWEEN UBER AND KTAXIS.

HOW DID TECHNOLOGY BUILD A BRIDGE OR HIGHLIGHT BRIDGES BETWEEN WHAT WOULD OTHERWISE BE TWO DIVIDED CAMPS?

>> IN DEMOCRACIES WITH A LOWER INTEREST RATE AND A HIGHER LATENCY, MEANING YOU HAVE TO WAIT FOR FOUR YEARS AND TO CAST A VOTE, WHICH CARRIES MAYBE THREE BITS OF INFORMATION, SOMETIMES YOU SEE ONE SIDE WINNING FOR FOUR YEARS AND ANOTHER FOUR YEARS HAS PASSED BY AND ANOTHER SIDE WINS, THE OTHER SIDE LOSES.

THERE IS VERY LITTLE ROOM FOR COCREATION.

BUT IN TAIWAN WE USED THIS SYSTEM CALLED POLIS, WHICH IS A WICK I SURVEY.

LIKE SURVEY, IT ASKS A BUNCH OF QUESTIONS.

LIKE A WIKI, THESE QUESTIONS ARE YOUR FELLOW CITIZENS' FEELINGS.

SO EVERYBODY CAN SAY OH, I FEEL THAT SURGE PRICING IS FINE, BUT UNDERCUTTING EXISTING MAJORS ISN'T.

OR THAT I FEEL THAT INSURANCE IS VERY IMPORTANT, REGARDLESS WHETHER THE DRIVER HAS A PROFESSIONAL LICENSE, AND SO ON.

AND SO FOR EACH AND EVERY OF THESE STATEMENTS, YOU CAN UNLIKE, YOU CAN LIKE, BUT YOU CANNOT REPLY.

SO PEOPLE'S ATTENTION IS NOT SUCKED INTO THIS ONLINE TROLLING, DUNKING, OR THINGS LIKE THAT, BUT RATHER IT PR PROPROMOTE PEOPLE.

BECAUSE THERE IS A REALTIME BOARD.

THAT PEOPLE'S STATEMENTS THAT FLOWS TO THE TOP BECAUSE THEY'RE EMBRACED BY BOTH SIDES.

SO VERY QUICKLY WE SET ALONG A VERY NEAT PACKAGE OF TEN RECOMMENDATIONS AND PUT THAT INTO LAW.

SO JUST BY GAMIFYING IT A LITTLE BIT HIGHLIGHTING THE ONE THAT IS MOST BRIDGING.

AND THE SAME ALGORITHM ALSO INSPIRED COMMUNITY NOTES SO THAT YOU CAN ALSO, YOU KNOW, PARTICIPATE IN THE COMMUNITY NOTES REPOSITORY.

BUT IT'S OPEN SOURCE NOTES THAT END UP BECOMING DISPLAYED ARE THE ONES THAT SPEAK ACROSS THE DIVIDES.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS THAT YOU OUTLINE IN THE BOOK IS HOW IT'S CALLED SORT OF GOV ZERO.

WHAT WERE YOU TRYING TO DO WITH THAT IN TAIWAN?

>> GOVTW, THAT'S THE GOVERNMENT'S WEBSITE.

IF YOU CHANGE THE O TO A ZERO AND GET INTO ZERO WHICH IS THIS OPEN SOURCE CIVIC TYPE MOVEMENT.

AND THE REASON WHY IS THAT, FOR EXAMPLE, TEN YEARS AGO, IT WAS THE BUDGETS THAT WAS VERY HARD TO UNDERSTAND.

THEY WERE LOCKED IN PDFs AND SO ON.

OR THE LEGISLATORS' DEBATES AND SO ON.

PART OF THE PROMISE OF THE GOV ZERO MOVEMENT IS THIS RADICAL TRANSPARENCY.

MAKING SURE THAT EVERYDAY PEOPLE WHEN THEY FEEL THEY WANT TO KNOW MORE ABOUT GOVERNMENT FUNCTION, ABOUT DEMOCRACY AND SO ON, THE INFORMATION EVEN IF IT'S NOT ON THEIR FINGERTIPS, THEY CAN CHANGE THE WEBSITE AND CHANGE THE O TO A ZERO AND GET INTO THE SHADOW WEBSITES THAT EXPLAINS THINGS BETTER.

AND BECAUSE IT IS OPEN SOURCE, SOME TIME THE GOVERNMENT IS SHAMED TO MERGING BACK THIS NEW DESIGN SO THAT A SERVICE EXPERIENCE IS BETTER.

SO THAT'S STARTED FROM 2012.

AND AFTER I BECAME THE DIGITAL MINISTER IN 2016, I HAVE SYSTEMATICALLY MERGED ORDERS, INNOVATIONS INTO THE GOVERNMENT, INCLUDING, FOR EXAMPLE, CONTACT TRACING, VISUALIZATION, THE AVAILABILITY, SO AND SO FORTH DURING THE PANDEMIC.

>> SO SOMETHING REALLY IMPORTANT HAPPENED BETWEEN 2012 AND 2016, AND THAT WAS THE DEMONSTRATIONS, THE SUNFLOWER STUDENT MOVEMENT.

AND TELL THE AUDIENCE A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHAT YOUR ROLE WAS DURING THAT TIME.

>> IN 2014, MANY STUDENTS FEEL THAT THIS SUDDEN PASSING OF A TRADE DEAL WAS BEIJING REGIME MAKES IT VERY DIFFICULT FOR PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND EVEN WHY THAT IS BEING PASSED BECAUSE IT'S JUST BEING RUSHED THROUGH.

AND SO PEOPLE THOUGHT THAT WE NEED A REAL DELIBERATION ON EACH AND EVERY ASPECT, INSTEAD OF JUST A SINGLE PACKAGE.

SO, FOR EXAMPLE, WE WERE BUILDING THE THEN NEW 4G CORE NETWORK AND WHETHER ALLOWING ZGE INTO THAT NETWORK.

THAT A GOOD IDEA?

THAT'S PROBABLY WARRANTS A DEBATE.

SO PEOPLE JUST STORMED INTO THE PARLIAMENT DURING THE NIGHT WHEN THERE WAS NOBODY THERE, AND I WAS THERE SUPPORTING THE BANDWIDTHS REQUIRED TO LIVE STREAM THIS ENTIRE EVENT.

AND SO I WOULD CONTINUE THAT ROLE WITH THE GOV ZERO PEOPLE FOR THE NEXT THREE WEEKS.

AND BECAUSE EVERY CORNER IS LIVE-STREAMED, IT HAD TWO EFFECTS.

ONE, THERE IS NO VIOLENCE AROUND OCCUPIED PARLIAMENTARY AREA.

AND SECOND, IT ACTUALLY CONVERGED INSTEAD OF LIKE MOST OCCUPY, WHICH DIVERGED OVER TIME.

BECAUSE IF YOU GO TO THE OCCUPIED SITE, IF YOU ENTER YOUR COMPANY'S TAXI D N ID NUMBER, YN SEE HOW THE TRADE AFFECTS YOU AND ONE OF THE NEGOTIATIONS GOING ON.

AND BECAUSE IT'S ALL CAPTURED IN LIVE STREAM, SUMMARIZED, READ OUT THE NEXT MORNING, EVERY DAY WE INCH A LITTLE BIT MORE TOWARD ROUGH CONSENSUS.

AT THE END OF IT, PEOPLE CAN LIVE WITH IT, WITH A LOT OF AGREEMENTS, JUST LIKE THE UBER CASE.

AND SO THE HEAD OF THE PARLIAMENT EVENTUALLY SAID OKAY, IF THAT'S WHAT PEOPLE WANT, WE WILL JUST DO THAT.

SO THE END RESULT IS THAT PEOPLE DO NOT AGREE TO SIGN A CROSS-TRADE SERVICE AND TRADE AGREEMENT.

PEOPLE THOUGHT THAT ANYTHING LIKE THAT SHOULD BE TREATED AS A TREATY WITH A FOREIGN GOVERNMENT INSTEAD OF A SPECIAL CONSTITUTIONALLY DEFINED GOVERNMENT.

AND ALSO, PEOPLE UNDERSTOOD THAT THERE NEEDS TO BE MORE TRANSPARENCY IN THE LEGISLATIVE PROCESS ITSELF.

THE PART OF NEGOTIATION NEEDS TO BE LIVE-STREAMED.

THERE NEEDS TO BE A LOT MORE ACCOUNTABILITY IN THE ENTIRE PROCESS, AND SO ON.

AND SO A LOT OF THAT ENDED UP BECOMING THE OPEN PARLIAMENT ACTION PLAN, WHICH YOU CAN LOOK UP IN TAIWAN'S GOVERNMENTAL WEBSITE.

>> OKAY.

SO THROUGH THIS PROCESS, THROUGH THIS DEMONSTRATION, THROUGH THESE PROTESTS, YOU GET TO A POINT THAT WHERE YOU'RE SAYING LOOK, THE PEOPLE OF TAIWAN SHOULDN'T SIGN THIS TRADE PACT WITH CHINA.

HOW DID THAT SIT WITH CHINA, THE IDEA THAT THIS WAS NOT JUST MEETING RESISTANCE, BUT IN SUCH A DIGITAL AND TRANSPARENT AND PUBLIC WAY?

>> WE HAVE A MILLION PEOPLE ON THE STREET, AND MANY MORE ONLINE.

THIS DEMONSTRATION IS MORE THAN A PROTEST.

IT IS A DEMO.

IT SHOWS HOW DEMOCRACY CAN EVOLVE AS A SOCIAL TECHNOLOGY.

I CANNOT SPEAK ON BEHALF OF THE BEIJING REGIME, OF COURSE, BUT WE HAVE SEEN THAT THEY -- THEIR REACTIONS TOWARDS SOCIAL MEDIA IS QUITE DIFFERENT, WHEREAS WE EMBRACE THE PRO SOCIAL MEDIA WE JUST TALKED ABOUT, THEY SEEM TO AROUND THAT TIME, 2014-ISH THINK THAT IT IS SOMETHING OF GRAVE DANGER TO THEIR POLITY, THAT IF PEOPLE ORGANIZE THIS WAY WITH HALF A MILLION PEOPLE ON STREET THROUGH SOCIAL MEDIA, THE STABILITY OF THEIR CONTROL AND THEIR POPULATION MAY BE GREATLY THREATENED.

AND SO THEY INVESTED A LOT OF MONEY, A LOT OF RESOURCES INTO SO-CALLED HARMONIZIZATION OF THE INTERNET AND MAKING SURE THAT THE CIVIL SOCIETIES SPACE ONLINE SHRINKS YEAR AFTER YEAR EVER SINCE 2014.

YEAH, I THINK THIS DEMONSTRATION IN TAIWAN ALSO SHOWED EVERYONE ELSE WHAT SOCIAL MEDIA CAN DO, BUT AUTHORITARIAN REGIMES RESPONDED QUITE DIFFERENTLY FROM TAIWAN.

>> I DO WANT THE ASK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHAT YOU WERE ABLE TO IMPLEMENT DURING THE PANDEMIC.

WHAT WERE SOME OF THE POLICIES THAT YOU WERE ABLE TO IMPLEMENT, YOU KNOW, QUICKLY THAT KIND OF SET THE TONE FOR HOW TAIWAN WAS GOING TO MANAGE THIS GLOBAL PANDEMIC THAT LITERALLY ACROSS THE STRAIT WAS DOING JUST INCALCULABLE HUMAN DAMAGE?

>> A KEY IS THAT WE RESPONDED VERY, VERY QUICKLY.

SO TEN DAYS BEFORE THE SHOW THE WORLD ORGANIZATION TOOK DECISIVE ACTION.

AND WE ENSURED THAT PEOPLE KNEW VERY EARLY ON THAT MASK USE IS CRITICAL.

BUT AT A TIME, PEOPLE WERE NOT VERY SURE ABOUT AEROSOL OR MASK EFF EFFICACY, AND SO ON.

SO OUR COMMUNICATIONS STRATEGY IS RATHER DIFFERENT.

IN ADDITION DAILY TO PRESS CONFERENCES, IN ADDITION TO A HOTLINE 1922 ONE CAN CALL TO ASK ANY QUESTIONS, THERE ARE ALSO WAYS WE CALL HUMOR OVER RUMOR, MAKING SURE THERE IS A VERY CUTE SPOKES DOG, THAT WAS HER PAW ON THE FACE SAYING WEAR A MASK TO BLOCK AND WASH DIRTY HANDS FROM FACE.

AND IT'S VERY FUNNY, SO IT WENT VIRAL.

MAKING SURE THAT WHENEVER PEOPLE HEAR SOMETHING THAT THEY DON'T QUITE UNDERSTAND, INSTEAD OF DEBUNKING THE RUMOR, AFTER THE RUMOR ALREADY APPEARED, WE PREBUNKED THE RUMOR BY ENSURING PEOPLE UNDERSTAND WHERE ITS COMING FROM AND HOW TO REACT TO IT WITH A MORE RELAXED ATTITUDE OR EVEN HUMOROUS ATTITUDE.

FOR EXAMPLE, THERE WAS A YOUNG BOY WHO CALLED 1922 HOTLINE SAYING MASKS NOW, BUT ALL I GOT IS PINK ONES, WHICH IS NOT FINE.

AS A BOY, I DO NOT WANT TO WEAR PINK TO A SCHOOL.

THE VERY NEXT DAY ON THE DAILY PANDEMIC CONFERENCE, EVERY MINISTER, DIRECTOR GENERALS, EVERYONE WORE PINK, REGARDLESS OF THEIR GENDER.

AND IT'S BECOME VERY FASHIONABLE, ALL THE FASHIONABLE BRANDS AND SO ON TURNED PINK.

IMAGINE IF WE HAD TO DEBUNK, IF THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION SAID BULLYING IS BAD.

THAT WON'T WORK, RIGHT?

BUT BY HAVING PINK BEING THE MOST FASHIONABLE COLOR, IT ACTUALLY WORKED AND INCREASED PEOPLE'S INTEREST IN WEARING RAINBOW MASK OR ALL SORT OF MASK THAT MASSIVELY INCREASED MASK USE.

SO IT'S AN ALL OF SOCIETY EFFORT.

>> WOW.

WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT PREBUNKING MISINFORMATION OR DEALING WITH THE KINDS OF CHALLENGES, IT SEEMS THAT IT'S GOTTEN MUCH MORE DIFFICULT SINCE COVID IN PART BECAUSE TECHNOLOGY HAS IMPROVED, WHERE NOW IT'S NOT THAT HARD FOR ME TO CREATE A DEEPFAKE OF MYSELF OR OF YOU.

AND I WONDER IN THAT -- IN THIS NEW ERA THAT WE'RE HEADING INTO, HOW DO YOU INFORM AND MAKE SURE THAT YOUR POPULATION IS DIGITALLY LITERAL ENOUGH, WHERE THEY MIGHT NOT HAVE TO BE SORT OF FIRST-LINE FACT CHECKERS FOR EVERYONE, BUT HOW DO YOU PREPARE THEM FOR THIS NEW REALITY?

>> WHAT WE DID IN TERMS OF PREBUNKING WENT WAY BEFORE THIS ELECTION THIS JANUARY.

ALREADY IN 2022, I DEEPFAKE MYSELF IN FRONT OF A MONITOR SHOWING EXACTLY HOW IT'S DONE AND SHARE TO IT THE PEOPLE, SO THAT PEOPLE KNOW ALTHOUGH CURRENTLY IT TAKES 12 HOURS, VERY QUICKLY THIS WILL JUST TAKE 12 MINUTES.

AND VERY QUICKLY JUST 12 SECONDS.

AND NOW WE'RE AT THE MILLIE SECONDS RANGE WHICH CAN BE IN REALTIME TALKING TO YOU NOW.

BUT WE HAVE PREPARED PEOPLE'S MINDS AGAINST THIS POSSIBILITY.

AND I REALLY THINK THE KEY IS NOT JUST LITERACY.

LITERACY IS WHEN YOU CONSUME.

BUT STARTING 2019, WE CHANGED IN OUR CURRICULUM, DIGITAL LITERACY, BOO COMPETENCE.

COMPETENCE IS WHEN YOU CO-CREATE, WHEN YOU CONTRIBUTE.

SO INSTEAD OF JUST VIEWING THE NEWS WITH A CRITICAL MIND-SET, YOU CAN CONTRIBUTE TO THE FACT-CHECKING.

THESE ARE WHAT WE CALL SOCIETAL RESILIENCE IDEAS SO THAT EVEN IF YOU'RE A JUNIOR HIGH SCHOOL STUDENT, IF YOU'RE REALLY DILIGENT AND YOU WANT TO CONTRIBUTE TO FACT-CHECKING, YOU CAN ACTUALLY BE A WIKIPEDIA AVID POSTER AND ADD A LOT OF CONTEXT TO WHAT'S GOING ON.

AND BECAUSE MANY PEOPLE USE THIS STAT, IT LET US SEE IN REALTIME WHICH RUMORS ARE TRENDING, WHICH ONES HAVING A BASIC REPRODUCTION NUMBER OF MORE THAN ONE, WHICH ARE LITERALLY GOING VIRAL.

AND WE GET THEM TO IGNORE THE REST, NOT TO SPEND TOO MUCH TIME ON IT.

BECAUSE IT'S SELF-LIMITING.

>> AUDREY, I'D LIKE TO ASK YOU MAYBE A PERSONAL QUESTION.

AND YOU IDENTIFY AS TRANSGENDER AND NONBINARY.

I WONDER, IT'S NONBINARY NOT JUST IN GENDER, IT'S IN EVERYTHING.

I WONDER HOW THAT INFORMS YOUR OUTLOOK.

WE LITERALLY HAVE BEEN TALKING IN THIS CONVERSATION ABOUT WAYS WHERE YOU'RE BUILDING BRIDGES BETWEEN DIFFERENT PARTIES AND SO FORTH.

AND I WONDER IF SOMEWHERE THE WORK THAT YOU'RE DOING TODAY IS INFLUENCED, INFORMED BY WHO YOU ARE AND HOW YOU SEE THE WORLD?

>> UH-HUH.

YEAH.

SO I JUST RECENTLY LEARNED THAT iPHONES, THE CONTACT BOOK, THERE ARE THE PRONOUN FIELDS.

AND WHEN A FRIEND ASKED ME TO FILL IN MY DETAILS, SO I SAID THAT I FILLED THAT MY PRONOUNS ARE ANY, ALL, AND WHATEVER, MEANING THAT I CAN'T GET OFFENDED.

SO THAT MEANS REALLY LIKE THAT IN MY MIND.

I DON'T THINK HALF OF THE POPULATION IS FARTHER AWAY FROM ME AND HALF IS CLOSER TO ME.

ON THE HR FORM THAT I FILED IN 2016 WHEN I FIRST BECAME DIGITAL MINISTER, THERE WERE NO DIGITAL MINISTERS BEFORE IN TAIWAN.

SO I HAD TO COME UP WITH MY OWN JOB DESCRIPTION, AND SO ON.

SO I FILED NOT APPLICABLE TO THE GENDER FIELD, AND NOT APPLICABLE TO THE PARTY FIELD.

SO I HAVE NO PARTY AFFILIATION.

I CONSIDER DIFFERENT PARTIES JUST PARTS OF THE FABRIC THAT WE CAN WEAVE TRUST.

SO I THINK IT DOES AFFECT MY OUTLOOK, BECAUSE IF AT SOME POINT I FEEL THAT OH, THESE PEOPLE, THE TAXI DRIVES, THEY'RE CLOSER TO ME, AND THE UBER DRIVERS, THEY'RE FARTHER AWAY FROM ME, I WOULD THEN TELL MYSELF I NEED TO SPEND MORE TIME WITH THE OTHER GROUP SO THAT I CAN ALSO SEE THE WORLD FROM THEIR EYES.

>> THE BOOK THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT AND THE IDEA THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT A PLURALITY, HOW'S IT POSSIBLE FOR THESE IDEAS TO IMPROVE THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN TAIWAN AND CHINA?

I MEAN, RIGHT NOW THERE IS AN INCREDIBLE SOURCE OF TENSION FROM THE UNITED STATES AND LOTS OF EUROPEAN NATIONS AND CHINA RIGHT NOW OVER TAIWAN.

>> UH-HUH.

>> SO IF WE WERE ABLE TO TAKE THE IDEAS FROM YOUR BOOK, DISTRIBUTE THEM WIDELY TO PEOPLE WHO ARE ON KIND OF DIFFERENT SIDES OF THIS EQUATION, HOW CAN THEY USE THAT TO BRING THE TEMPERATURE DOWN?

>> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, I THINK IT WILL DEPOLARIZE EFFECTIVELY A LOT OF THE CONVERSATIONS IN THE DEMOCRACIES, IN THE ALLIES THAT DOES SUPPORT TAIWAN.

BUT, YOU KNOW, SOMETIMES BECAUSE OF ELECTION DYNAMICS AND SO ON, THE PRC SOMETIMES SAYS THAT DEMOCRACY ONLY LEADS TO CHAOS OR DEMOCRACY NEVER DELIVERS, AND SO ON.

THEY DON'T QUITE COME OUT AND SAY THAT DIRECTLY THESE WORDS.

THAT'S MY WORDS, NOT THEIRS.

BUT THEY CERTAINLY SEEM TO SUGGEST THAT THE AUTHORITARIAN WAY MAY BE MORE HARMONIC IN MANY REGARDS.

BUT IF WE HAVE IMPLEMENTED PLURALITY WIDELY ACROSS DEMOCRACIES, JUST LIKE FINLAND, WHO HAVE ALSO ASKED WHAT THE FINNISH PEOPLE THINK, AND ALMOST ONE MILLION VOTES ARE CAST ON THE POLLIST PLATFORM SO PEOPLE CAN SEE VERY CLEARLY WHAT ARE THE BRIDGES, WHAT ARE THE DIVIDES IN THE COUNTRY, IN THE SOCIETY.

AND THEN TAKE REAL ACTIONS TO ADDRESS THOSE, THEN I THINK WILL MAKE DEMOCRACIES MUCH MORE PLURAL AND MUCH LESS POLARIZED.

AND ONCE WE HAVE DEPOLARIZED OURSELVES, WE WILL HAVE MORE CAPACITY TO ALSO DE-ESCALATE MANY OF THOSE INTERNATIONAL ISSUES.

>> AUDREY TANG, THE FORMER MINISTER OF DIGITAL AFFAIRS OF TAIWAN AND A CO-AUTHOR OF "PLURALITY."

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

LIVE LONG AND PROSPER.