Ted Johnson: Racism Is an Existential Threat to the US

> NOW TO A CRISIS DEEP WITHIN THE HEART OF THE UNITED STATES.

RACISM.

OUR NEXT GUEST, THE AUTHOR AND RETIRED NAVAL COMMANDER THEODORE JOHNSON ARGUES THAT RACISM IS AN EXISTENTIAL THREAT TO AMERICA.

IN HIS NEW BOOK, HE LAYS OUT A BLUEPRINT.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

YOUR BOOK, 'WHEN THE STARS BEGIN TO FALL,' IS BEAUTIFULLY WRITTEN.

IT HAS BEAUTIFUL MEDITATIONS ABOUT CITIZENSHIP, ABOUT RACE AND CITIZENSHIP.

BUT IT ALSO HAS SOME -- I WOULD ARGUE SOME FAIRLY PROVOCATIVE THESIS, AND I WOULD LIKE TO GO THROUGH SOME OF THOSE WITH YOU.

YOU MAKE THE ARGUMENT THAT DESPITE THE FACT THAT THE COUNTRY HAS SURVIVED, YOU KNOW, THESE CENTURIES WITH RACISM VERY MUCH A PART OF AMERICAN LIFE, YOU ARGUE THAT RACISM CONTINUES TO BE AN EXISTENTIAL THREAT TO THIS COUNTRY.

WHY DO YOU SAY THAT?

ABSOLUTELY.

JUST HISTORICALLY, IF WE LOOK BACK, THE ONE TIME OUR NATION LITERALLY BROKE INTO TWO PIECES WAS OVER THE QUESTION OF RACE.

AND REALLY THE STATUS OF BLACK AMERICANS IN THIS COUNTRY.

THAT'S THE ONLY THING THAT'S EVER LITERALLY BROKEN US AND CAUSED 1 MILLION CAUSALITIES IN THE PROCESS.

BUT THE IDEA IN THE BOOK IS A LITTLE BIT MORE PHILOSOPHICAL THAN THAT.

WHAT I'M ARGUING IN THE BOOK IS THAT RACISM -- RACIAL INEQUALITY -- DOES NOT AND CANNOT COEXIST WITH THE IDEA THAT WE'RE ALL CREATED EQUAL AND A GOVERNMENT WHERE ITS POWERFUL IS DERIVED FROM THE CONSENT OF THE GOVERNED.

I'M SAYING THAT STRUCTURAL RACISM IS A THREAT TO THE IDEA OF AMERICA AND I SEPARATE THE IDEA OF AMERICA, THE PROMISE OF AMERICA, FROM THE NATION STATE, THE UNITED STATES.

SO AS YOU SAID, THE UNITED STATES HAS LIVED QUITE COMFORTABLY AT TIMES WITH RACISM, WITH SLAVERY, WITH JIM CROW, BUT THE IDEA OF AMERICA HAS NEVER BEEN COMFORTABLE WITH STRUCTURAL RACISM, WITH RACIAL INEQUALITY.

WHEN RACIAL PROGRESS HAPPENS, THE IDEA OF AMERICA IS ACHIEVED IS REALIZED IN FULL -- OR AT LEAST IN MORE CONTEXT.

BUT WHENEVER WE ALLOW RACISM TO PERPETUATE ITSELF IN OUR STRUCTURES, THEN THE IDEA OF AMERICA RECEDES.

EITHER WE CONFRONT THE PROBLEMS OR WE ADMIT THAT OUR COMMITMENT TO THE IDEALS OF AMERICA ARE BASICALLY SUPERFICIAL RHETORIC AND WE'RE MORE MARRIED TO COMMANDEERING AS MUCH OF AMERICA FOR OURSELVES INSTEAD OF TRYING TO CREATE A SOCIETY.

YOU SAY THIS IS HAPPENING EVEN AS THE COUNTRY HAS MOVED IN MANY WAYS TOWARDS ITS IDEALS.

THE COUNTRY HAS MOVED CLOSER TO ITS IDEALS.

YET IT REMAINS DEEPLY POLARIZED.

YOU SAY THE NATION WE HAVE AND A NATION WE WANT ARE SEPARATED BY A VAST SEA.

AND THAT WE WONDER ALOUD HOW A COUNTRY THAT HAS BECOME MORE ALIGNED TO ITS FOUNDING PRINCIPLES REMAINS CONFOUNDED BY RACIAL INJUSTICE AND CONFLICT AT EVERY TURN.

YOU SAY WE ARE HOPEFUL, YES, BUT WE ARE TIRED.

WHY TIRED?

YEAH.

SO WE ARE 245 YEARS OLD AS A NATION THIS YEAR.

AND FOR THE ENTIRE LENGTH OF OUR NATION'S HISTORY AND EVEN IN THE CENTURIES PRECEDING IT, THERE HAVE BEEN PEOPLE EXCLUDED FROM THE RIGHTS AND PRIVILEGES OF CITIZENSHIP THAT HAVE BEEN FIGHTING FOR INCLUSION.

LOOK, THE PROGRESS IS REAL.

I'M MUCH HAPPIER BEING A BLACK MAN IN AMERICA IN 2021 THAN IN 1921 AND CERTAINLY IN 1821.

SO PROGRESS IS UNDENIABLE.

BUT WE HAVE NOT YET ACHIEVED THIS KIND OF MULTIRACIAL SOCIETY THAT IS IN OUR IDEALS, THAT'S CAPTURED IN THE DECLARATION AND THE CONSTITUTION.

SO THE FIGHT CONTINUES TO CREATE THIS WORLD WHERE RACIAL HIERARCHY DOESN'T EXIST, WHERE STRUCTURAL RACISM DOESN'T INFLUENCE THE PAST THAT PEOPLE TAKE IN OUR COUNTRY, THAT DOESN'T MAKE THE CLIMB TO THE AMERICAN DREAM STEEPER FOR SOME GROUPS THAN OTHERS.

SO THE FIGHT CONTINUES WHICH MEANS MANY OF US ARE TIRED OF IT.

LOOK, WE DRAW INSPIRATION FROM THOSE WHO CAME BEFORE US.

IF THOSE WHO WERE ENSLAVED COULD SOMEHOW MANAGE TO KEEP HOPE AND OPTIMISM AND FAITH ALIVE AND HOPES THAT MAYBE THEIR CHILDREN OR CHILDREN'S CHILDREN WOULD BE EMANCIPATED AND BE FULLY EMBRACED AS AMERICANS, CERTAINLY TODAY WE CAN HOLD ON TO THE SAME FAITH AND OPTIMISM IN HOPES THAT WE CAN LEAVE BEHIND A BETTER COUNTRY THAN THE ONE WE INHERITED.

ONE OF THE POINTS THAT YOU MAKE THOUGH IS THE AMERICAN EXPERIMENT IS A NOVEL UNDERTAKING.

YOU QUOTE THE THEORIST DANIEL ALAN, THE WORLD HAS NEVER BUILT A MULTIPLE ETHNIC DEMOCRACY IN WHICH NO PARTICULAR ETHNIC GROUP IS IN THE MAJORITY AND WHERE POLITICAL EQUALITY, SOCIAL EQUALITY AND ECONOMIES THAT EMPOWER ALL HAVE BEEN ACHIEVED.

HAVING SAID THAT, WHY DO YOU THINK IT CAN BE?

WHEN ENSLAVED BACK PEOPLE ARE IN THE COUNTRY, IF SOMEONE TOLD THEM, ONE DAY THERE WOULD BE A CIVIL WAR AND THE RESULTS OF THIS WILL BE THE ABOLISHMENT OF SLAVERY, MANY OF THEM WOULD SAY, I DON'T BELIEVE THE COUNTRY HAS IT IN THEM.

AS BLACK FOLKS ARE BEING LYNCHED IN THE SOUTH, SOME OF THEM SAID, ONE DAY THERE WILL BE A BLACK PRESIDENT IN THIS COUNTRY, THEY WOULD SAY, I DON'T THINK WE CAN DO IT.

AND SO THE PATH THAT I HOPE TO ILLUMINATE IN THIS BOOK IS THAT THERE IS A WAY FORWARD.

NOW, WHETHER WE ARE BIG ENOUGH PEOPLE, WHETHER WE ARE COURAGEOUS ENOUGH, COMMITTED ENOUGH TO THE CAUSE, TO CREATE THE NATION OF OUR IDEALS IS A DIFFERENT QUESTION AND ONE THAT WE WILL -- WE MUST ANSWER.

WHAT'S THE WAY FORWARD?

LET'S TALK ABOUT THAT.

AS I SAID, YOUR BOOK ADDRESSES THEMES THAT MANY PEOPLE HAVE UNDERTAKEN BEFORE.

SO MANY PEOPLE HAVE UNDERTAKEN THIS QUESTION OF WHAT DOES CITIZENSHIP MEAN IN A COUNTRY IN WHICH EQUAL RIGHTS ARE NOT OUR PROMISE BUT NOT DELIVERED.

ONE OF THE ARGUMENTS YOU MAKE IS THAT IT REQUIRES AN UNDERSTANDING THAT RACISM IS A CRIME OF THE STATE.

RIGHT.

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

THE BASIC ARGUMENT HERE IS THAT IF WE TRY TO MAKE THE UNITED STATES LIVE UP TO THE IDEALS OF AMERICA, THIS PROMISE OF AMERICA, BY ONLY MAKING MORAL CLAIMS, BY CLAIMING OUR INHERENT RIGHT TO EQUALITY, BY DEMANDING FULL ACCESS TO ALL OF THE CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS BASED ON A MORAL BASIS, NATION STATES ARE NOT MOVED BY MORAL CLAIMS.

EXCEPT WHEN THEY'RE ALIGNED TO THE NATIONAL INTERESTS.

NATION STATES ARE GOVERNED BY THEIR INTERESTS, NOT BY SOME ABSOLUTE SENSE OF GOODNESS OR MORALITY.

AND SO WHEN WE ALLOW RACISM TO PERPETUATE ITSELF IN OUR STRUCTURES THE WAY SOCIETY IS BUILT, THE PUBLIC POLICY THAT IS PASSED AND IMPLEMENTED, THEN IT IS THE FAULT OF THE NATION STATES THAT WE STILL SEE RACIAL INEQUALITY RESULTING FROM THE WAY OUR SOCIETY IS STRUCTURED.

IT'S NOT WHITE PEOPLE BEING MEAN TO BLACK PEOPLE THAT CAUSES THE WEALTH GAP.

IT IS WE HAVE A SOCIETY STRUCTURED IN SUCH A WAY THAT INEQUALITY IS THE PRODUCT OF THOSE STRUCTURES AND THAT'S THE FAULT OF THE STATE FOR NOT BEING ACTIVE ENOUGH IN ITS PUBLIC POLICY TO ADDRESS SUCH STRUCTURES SO THAT THEY CREATE OUTCOMES THAT LIVE UP TO OUR IDEALS ABOUT THIS INHERENT INEQUALITY.

THE FORMER PRESIDENT, DONALD TRUMP, IN THE CONTEXT OF ALL THE THINGS YOU'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT.

WHEN YOU'RE ABLE TO WEAPONIZE RACIAL DIVERSITY AND STOKE FEARS OF OTHER GROUPS IN ORDER TO -- BECAUSE OF POLITICAL EXPEDIENCE, IN ORDER TO HOLD ON AND GET POLITICAL POWER, THEN NOT ONLY ARE YOU DIVIDING THE COUNTRY, YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY BEHAVING IN AN UN-AMERICAN WAY IF YOU BELIEVE IN THE PRINCIPLES SUBSCRIBED IN OUR FOUNDING DOCUMENTS.

WHAT DONALD TRUMP WAS ABLE TO DO WAS GET PEOPLE TO STOP FOCUSING ON THE AMERICA OF PRINCIPLE, EQUALITY, LIBERTY, FREEDOM, AND GET PEOPLE TO FOCUS ON THE IDEA THAT THEIR GROUP WAS LOSING THEIR PLACE IN AMERICA AND TRIGGER THOSE ANXIETIES AND FEARS IN ORDER TO HAVE CERTAIN FOLKS OKAY WITH THE OPPRESSION OF OTHER FOLKS BECAUSE THAT WAS THE ONLY WAY THE AMERICA OF THEIR GRANDPARENTS' GENERATION COULD BE SECURED.

THIS IS NOT TRUE.

IT'S A FALSE EQUIVALENCY, BUT IT IS EFFECTIVE POLITICS FOR THOSE WHO AREN'T INTERESTED IN MAKING AMERICA A BETTER VERSION OF ITSELF.

AMONG THE FOUNDING LEADERS OF THE COUNTRY, THIS DEBATE WAS HAD ABOUT WHETHER THIS COUNTRY COULD BE A TRULY DEMOCRATIC SOCIETY AND MAINTAIN SLAVERY AND THE DECISION WAS, YEAH, IT CAN.

WHAT DO YOU THINK THAT PEOPLE IN THE CURRENT ERA WILL DISAGREE?

WELL, SO, THE HILL IS STEEP.

THIS IS NOT AN EASY TASK.

TWO THINGS HAVE TO HAPPEN.

WHEN THE FOUNDING FATHERS CREATED THIS NATION AND DECIDED THAT THE UNION -- ESTABLISHING THE UNION WAS MORE IMPORTANT THAN GETTING RID OF SLAVERY, THEY MADE A NATIONAL INTEREST DECISION WHICH GOES BACK TO THE EARLIER PART IN OUR CONVERSATION.

90 YEARS LATER, THEY DECIDED THE ONLY WAY TO KEEP THE UNION WAS TO ABOLISH SLAVERY.

SLAVERY DIDN'T CHANGE IN THOSE 90 YEARS, BUT THE INTEREST OF THE NATION DID SUCH THAT KEEPING THE UNION WAS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING, KEEPING SLAVERY, HELP ITS CREATION, GETTING RID OF SLAVERY, HELPED IT IN ITS REUNIFICATION.

I COULD GO THROUGH EXAMPLES ABOUT HOW MARRYING THE NATIONAL INTEREST TO THE RACIALLY CORRECT THING TO DO LEADS TO GREAT PROBLEM.

THE WAY FORWARD, TWO THINGS HAVE TO HAPPEN.

FIRST, IS WE HAVE TO SHOW THE WAYS THAT RACIAL INEQUALITY HARM THE NATIONAL INTEREST.

WE DON'T NEED WARS.

CERTAINLY WE DON'T NEED ANOTHER GLOBAL PANDEMIC BECAUSE BOTH HAVE PROVEN NOT TO BE THE UNIFYING THING THAT A LOT OF FOLKS THINK THEY ARE.

BUT WE DO NEED A SET OF LEADERS, LOCAL UP THROUGH NATIONAL, TO MAKE THE CONNECTION BETWEEN RACIAL INEQUALITY AND THE NATIONAL INTEREST.

THE SECOND THING IS, WE DON'T KNOW EACH OTHER.

IF YOU LOOK AT PEOPLE'S SOCIAL CIRCLES, THEIR HO MONOJA NOUS.

SO WE DON'T TALK TO ONE ANOTHER.

WHEN SOMEONE SHOWS UP AND SAYS THAT GROUP OVER THERE, THAT'S THE REASON YOUR TAXES ARE SO HIGH.

THEY'RE THE REASON THEY DON'T HAVE A JOB.

THEY'RE THE REASON WHY THERE'S TERRORISM HAPPENING IN THE WORLD, ET CETERA, AND YOU DON'T KNOW PEOPLE FROM THAT GROUP, IT'S HARD TO BE RESILIENT TO THE DEVICES OF APPEALS BECAUSE YOU'RE LOOKING FOR SOMEONE OR SOMETHING TO BLAME FOR WHY THE AMERICAN PROMISE HASN'T BEEN EXTENDED TO YOU, WHY THE AMERICAN DREAM IS HARD FOR YOU TO REACH.

THE ONE THING WE CAN DO TODAY, ALL OF US AND THIS IS SOMETHING BLACK FOLKS HAVE BEEN DOING SINCE THE BEGINNING, IS GET OUT OF OUR SOCIAL CIRCLES AND INTERACT WITH PEOPLE THAT ARE UNLIKE US.

WE HAVE TO BE ABLE TO INTERACT SOCIALLY IF WE'RE EVER GOING TO HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO ESTABLISH SOME KIND OF MULTIRACIAL SOLIDARITY.

YOU TALK A LOT IN THE BOOK, AND MOST PEOPLE WHO FOLLOW THE NEWS SEE THE SAME THINGS THAT YOU DO, A VERY POLARIZED COUNTRY.

DIVISION IN THIS COUNTRY ISN'T JUST ABOUT RACE.

WE'RE SEEING CONFRONTATIONS OVER MASK MANDATES.

WE'RE SEEING CONFRONTATIONS OVER GETTING A VACCINE.

HOW DO YOU -- HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THAT?

LOOK, A LOT OF POLITICAL SCIENTISTS HAVE SPENT TIME SHOWING ALL OF THE FRACTURES IN OUR DEMOCRACY THAT HAVE OCCURRED OVER THE LAST DECADE-PLUS.

SOME WOULD SAY HYPERPARTISANSHIP IS THE THING THAT'S TEARING US APART.

THE REAL ISSUE IS ECONOMIC INEQUALITY.

THE HAVES HAVE SO MUCH, WHILE THE HAVE NOTES HAVE GAINED NOTHING.

IF WE DON'T ADDRESS THIS ECONOMIC INEQUALITY, THE NATION WILL BREAK APART, WE CAN LOOK AT THE ANTITRUST ERA TO SHOW THE DANGERS OF THE MEGA RICH HAVING TOO MUCH POWER IN A COUNTRY.

AND YET A THIRD GROUP WOULD SAY, THE ISSUE IS REALLY SORT OF THIS UNDEMOCRATIC POPULISM WHERE POPULAR FIGURES AND DEMAGOGUES GET TO COMMANDEER OUR SYSTEMS OF JUSTICE TO DO THINGS THAT ARE UNDEMOCRATIC AND UNJUST.

AND THAT IS COULD ALSO BE A FRACTURE.

IF YOU DISSECT ALL OF THOSE THREE THINGS, YOU WILL FIND RACIAL INEQUALITY AT THE HEART.

IF WE SOLVE ECONOMIC INEQUALITY TOMORROW, RACISM WILL CREATE A NATION WHERE EQUALITY DOES NOT EXIST.

IF WE GET RID OF THE POPULOUS DEMAGOGUES, RACISM WILL STILL EXIST.

IF WE ADDRESS HYPERPARTISANSHIP AND HAVE MORE -- RACISM WILL STILL EXIST AND WE DON'T HAVE TO GUESS.

WE HAVE SEEN THESE THINGS RISE AND SORT OF RECEDE IN OUR NATION'S HISTORY.

AND THE THING THAT HAS REMAINED IS RACIAL INEQUALITY RESULTING FROM BAD PUBLIC POLICY AND GOOD PUBLIC POLICY.

IN THIS WAY, RACIAL INEQUALITY, STRUCTURAL RACISM IS THE THING THAT IF WE CAN FIGURE THAT OUT, WE HAVE A CHANCE OF ADDRESSING HYPERPARTISANSHIP, SOME OF THESE LIBERAL TENDENCIES.

IF WE LEAVE RACISM UNATTENDED, IT WILL BE THE THING THAT HARMS THE COUNTRY IN WAYS THAT NO OTHER SET OF POLICY PRESCRIPTIONS WILL SOLVE.

IF YOU WERE TO PRESENT YOUR BOOK TO YOUR FORMER COLLEAGUES IN THE MILITARY, HOW DO YOU THINK THAT THEY WOULD RECEIVE IT?

ON THE ONE HAND, WE TALK ABOUT THE MILITARY BEING THE MOST SUCCESSFULLY INTEGRATED INSTITUTION IN AMERICA.

ON THE OTHER HAND WE SEE THESE ISSUES HAVING TO SIT IN THE MILITARY AND SOME WAYS DO PERSIST.

WHAT'S YOUR TAKE ON WHETHER YOUR COLLEAGUES IN THE MILITARY SEE THIS THE WAY YOU DO?

A FEW THINGS HERE.

ONE IS, WHEN GENERAL MILLEY WAS QUESTIONED JUST A FEW WEEKS AGO ABOUT CRITICAL RACE THEORY, HE SAYS --

WHO IS THE CHAIRMAN OF THE JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF.

WHO IS WHITE.

WHO IS WHITE.

HE SAID WHAT'S SO WRONG WITH WANTING TO UNDERSTAND THE NATION WE'RE DEFENDING?

AND THIS BOOK IS THAT.

IT IS A PATRIOTIC LOOK AT THE CHALLENGE THAT STRUCTURAL RACISM PRESENTS TO THE EXISTENCE OF THE AMERICAN IDEA.

IF YOU CAN'T GET ON BOARD WITH THAT IN THE MILITARY, WANTING TO UNDERSTAND YOUR COUNTRY THAT YOU'RE DEFENDING AND RECOGNIZING THAT THERE'S MUCH TO VALUE IN THIS NATION, I DON'T KNOW THAT YOU CAN BE REACHED BY THE VAST MAJORITY OF FOLKS.

THERE'S A QUOTE FROM A BRITISH PHILOSOPHER OR MILITARY STRATEGIST THAT SAYS, THE NATION THAT WILL INSIST ON DIVIDING ITS THINKING MEN AND FIGHTING MEN WILL FIND ITS THINKING DONE BY COWARDS AND FIGHTING DONE BY FOOLS.

ALL OF THE THINGS THAT WE'VE FOUGHT FOR IN THE CONSTITUTION WE'VE MADE TREMENDOUS PROGRESS ON EXTENDING RIGHTS AND PRIVILEGES TO MORE PEOPLE.

BUT WE HAVE NOT CREATED THE MORE PERFECT UNION YET, THAT WE HAVE NOT CLOSED THE GAP BETWEEN WHO WE SAY WE ARE AND WHO WE PROFESS TO BE.

YOU SAY IN THE BOOK, SORT OF ON THE HOPEFUL SIDE OF THE LEDGER, THAT WE ALL WANT THE SAME THINGS.

AND YOU CITE A NUMBER OF DATA POINTS TO SUPPORT THAT IDEA.

BUT DO WE REALLY?

DO WE REALLY ALL WANT THE SAME THING?

IF SOME PEOPLE ARE JUST INVESTED IN RACIAL HIERARCHY BECAUSE IT ADVANTAGES THEM.

THIS IS A REAL QUESTION.

AND I WOULD SAY THAT THE VAST MAJORITY OF AMERICANS -- THIS IS BASED ON POLLING, ET CETERA.

I THINK IF THERE'S SOMETHING THERE, IF YOU ASK DO YOU BELIEVE IN DEMOCRACY, DO YOU BELIEVE IN EQUALITY, FREEDOM, LIBERTY, PROSPERITY, ET CETERA, MOST AMERICANS WOULD SAY YES TO THAT QUESTION.

SO ON THE FIRST PRINCIPLES OF OUR NATION, THESE THINGS, AGAIN, CAPTURED IN OUR FOUNDING DOCUMENTS, MOST AMERICANS AGREE, YES, I WANT THIS MULTIRACIAL DEMOCRACY.

AND THEN WHEN YOU TAKE THAT NEXT STEP AND SAY, HERE'S WHAT IT'S GOING TO COST TO GET THIS THING YOU SAY YOU WANT, THAT'S WHEN YOU GET A LOT OF PEOPLE BAILING OUT BECAUSE THEY'RE REALIZING, OH, I HAVE TO SACRIFICE SOMETHING, SOMETHING MATERIAL IN ORDER TO REALIZE THIS MULTIRACIAL DEMOCRACY OF OUR DREAMS?

I DON'T KNOW HOW COMMITTED I AM TO IT ANYMORE.

BUT THEY DON'T SAY THAT OUT LOUD.

THE QUESTION BEFORE THE COUNTRY IS, DO WE REALLY WANT DEMOCRACY?

THE QUESTION BEFORE THE COUNTRY IS, DO WE REALLY BELIEVE IN THE IDEA, THE PROMISE OF AMERICAN?

IF WE DON'T, THEN WE NEED TO SAY SO EXPLICITLY AND SAY WE BELIEVE THAT USING VIOLENCE TO KEEP THE RACIAL VIOLENCE IS A GOOD THING, AND THEN WE WILL HAVE A UNITED STATES BUT IT IS ONE THAT IS A TERRIBLE VERSION OF WHO WE ARE TODAY AND ONE THAT IS REMINISCENT OF THE PEOPLE WE USED TO BE, THAT WE DECIDED WE NO LONGER WANTED TO BE CENTURIES AGO.

THERE'S NO SHORTCUT TO UTOPIA.

THE MORE PERFECT UNION IS GOING TO REQUIRE MORE PERFECT PEOPLE AND WE HAVE TO DECIDE WHETHER WE'RE UP TO THE TASK OR NOT.

YOUR LATEST BOOK IS CALLED 'WHEN THE STARS BEGIN TO FALL.'

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US TODAY.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.