Tension Over Jan 6. Riot Investigation

> NOW IN WASHINGTON, THERE'S TENSION OVER AN INDEPENDENT COMMISSION TO INVESTIGATE THE JANUARY 6th INSURRECTION ATTACK.

ON WEDNESDAY, 35 HOUSE REPUBLICANS JOINED ALL DEMOCRATS IN A VOTE TO APPROVE THE MEASURE.

NOW IT MOVES TO THE SENATE WHERE MINORITY LEADER MITCH McCONNELL OPPOSES THE BILL.

IT IS NOT CLEAR IF THE LEGISLATION WILL EARN THE 60 VOTES IT NEEDS TO PASS.

FORMER REPUBLICAN SENATOR JEFF FLAKE SAYS THE BIG LIE THAT TRUMP WON THE ELECTION IS ERODING TRUST IN AMERICAN DEMOCRACY.

HERE HE IS SPEAKING WITH WALTER ISAACSON.

JEFF FLAKE, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

THANKS FOR HAVING ME ON.

THE HOUSE HAS PASSED THIS CALL FOR A COMMISSION TO INVESTIGATE WHAT HAPPENED ON JANUARY 6th.

DO YOU THINK YOUR FELLOW REPUBLICANS IN THE SENATE OUGHT TO VOTE FOR IT, AND HOW MANY DO YOU THINK MIGHT VOTE FOR IT?

I THINK THEY SHOULD.

I DON'T THINK THEY WILL.

I THINK THEY'RE STUCK ON HAVING A COUPLE OF CHANGES TO IT.

THAT WOULD BE FINE IF THE CHANGES WERE MADE, BUT I THINK THEY'RE COMFORTABLE IN THEIR POSITION TO VOTE AGAINST, DESPITE THE FACT THAT 35 HOUSE MEMBERS WENT FOR IT.

YOU'LL PROBABLY GET JUST A COUPLE OF SENATORS, LIKELY NOT TEN TO VOTE FOR IT.

WHY DO YOU THINK IT'S SO IMPORTANT TO HAVE THIS INVESTIGATION OF JANUARY 6th?

WELL, THIS WAS AN EVENT LIKE NONE OTHER.

IT'S BAD ENOUGH WHEN YOU HAVE A FOREIGN EVENT THAT NEEDS TO BE INVESTIGATED OR WHERE THE U.S.

HAS DONE SOMETHING WRONG OR WE WANT TO FIND OUT HOW WE COULD DO SOMETHING DIFFERENTLY.

WHEN YOUR OWN CITIZENS STAGE AN INSURRECTION AND THERE'S NO OTHER WORD FOR IT, WHEN THEY COME TO THE CAPITOL AND TRY TO STOP THE DEMOCRATIC PROCESS AND USE VIOLENT MEANS TO DO SO, THAT DESERVES AN INVESTIGATION.

I JUST DON'T SEE HOW WE CAN PASS THIS OFF AND SAY WE'VE LEARNED ENOUGH.

WE'VE HAD A COUPLE OF HEARINGS OR THERE WILL BE A FEW POLICE REPORTS.

SOMETHING LIKE THIS DESERVES A FULL INVESTIGATION.

DO YOU THINK THAT AN INVESTIGATION WOULD COME TO THE CONCLUSION WHICH MOST AMERICANS HAVE, THAT TRUMP AT LEAST PUSHED OR INCITED PART OF THIS INSURRECTION?

WE KNOW THAT BECAUSE THE TOP REPUBLICANS HAVE SAID THAT IN MOMENTS OF CANDOR OR RIGHT AFTER WHEN IT WAS CLEAR AND WHEN THEY, I GUESS, ASSUMED THAT THIS WAS THE DIRECTION THINGS WERE GOING AND PRESIDENT TRUMP HAD BEEN PUSHED ASIDE AND DISGRACED FOR HIS BEHAVIOR.

BUT IT TURNED OUT NOT TO BE THE CASE.

HE STILL IS A DOMINANT FORCE IN REPUBLICAN POLITICS AND THAT MAKES A DIFFERENCE TO REPUBLICANS RUNNING FOR REELECTION.

IS THERE A WAY TO MAKE IT SO THAT TRUMP IS NOT AS MUCH OF A DOMINANT FORCE?

IN OTHER WORDS, IF THIS INVESTIGATION WENT AHEAD, MIGHT THAT REDUCE HIS INFLUENCE IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, OR IS THAT HOPELESS?

I THINK THIS ISN'T LIKELY TO DO IT.

I THINK TIME IN GENERAL IS GOING TO DIMINISH HIS INFLUENCE.

FORMER PRESIDENTS NEVER HAVE THE SWAY THEY BELIEVE THEY HAVE FOR VERY LONG.

THIS IS MAYBE A LITTLE DIFFERENT CIRCUMSTANCE.

HE WILL BE A LESS DOMINANT FORCE.

BUT RIGHT NOW HE CAN STILL PICK UP A PHONE OR SEND OUT A PRESS RELEASE AND GENERATE A PRIMARY FOR ANY HOUSE REPUBLICAN OR ANY SENATE REPUBLICAN.

THAT'S NOT SOMETHING THEY WANT TO DEAL WITH.

SO HE'S STILL A DOMINANT FORCE.

THAT'S UNFORTUNATE, BUT I THINK IT WILL CHANGE OVER TIME.

THERE ARE SOME EVENTS, CERTAIN INVESTIGATIONS GOING ON INTO HIS BUSINESS DEALINGS THAT WILL LIKELY LESSEN THAT INFLUENCE OR SPEED THE TIME WHEN HE'S NOT SUCH A DOMINANT FORCE.

BUT RIGHT NOW HE IS.

YOU KNOW, PRIMARIES WILL START, YOU KNOW, JUST IN SOME STATES MONTHS AWAY, BY THE END OF THE YEAR.

SO YOU HAVE A THIRD OF THE SENATE UP AS WELL AND THERE IS STILL A CONCERN THAT YOU DON'T WANT TO CROSS THE TRUMP BASE AND WE'RE SEEING REPUBLICANS DO ALL KINDS OF THINGS, THE ANTICS IN ARIZONA WHERE GOING THROUGH A SO-CALLED AUDIT TO LOOK BACK AT THE 2020 ELECTION, TRYING TO PROVE THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP REALLY DIDN'T LOSE IT.

THAT'S JUST A PLAY TO THE REPUBLICAN BASE AND IT'S UNSEEMLY AND IT'S AMATEURISH AND ALL THAT, BUT THE REPUBLICAN BASE SEEMS TO WANT IT IN ARIZONA AND ELSEWHERE.

YOU'RE FROM ARIZONA.

YOU'RE ELECTED AS A REPUBLICAN SENATOR FROM ARIZONA.

EXPLAIN TO ME THE MARICOPA COUNTY AUDIT LOOKING FOR BAMBOO SHOOTS AMONGST THE BALLOTS.

WHAT'S HAPPENING THERE?

AS I MENTIONED, THIS A PLAY TO THE TRUMP BASE.

THERE'S A GROUP IN ARIZONA INCLUDING THE REPUBLICAN PARTY AND MOST REPUBLICAN PARTIES AT THE STATE AND LOCAL LEVEL HAVE BEEN CAPTURED BY TRUMPISM AND ARIZONA IN PARTICULAR.

SO THEY NEVER REALLY ACCEPTED THE ELECTION LOSS.

IT TURNED OUT TO BE 10,000 VOTES, 11,000 VOTES STATEWIDE, BUT ABOUT 40,000 VOTES IN MARICOPA COUNTY, WHICH REPRESENTS ABOUT TWO-THIRDS OF THE STATES VOTING.

IT WASN'T DECISIVE, ABOUT 40,000 VOTES.

BUT STILL THE COUNTY IS BEING FORCED TO RECOUNT THOSE BALLOTS OR THE STATE SENATE REPUBLICANS HAVE, YOU KNOW, REQUIRED THAT RECOUNT.

NOBODY IN THAT RIGHT MIND THINKS IT'S GOING TO CHANGE.

THIS WAS A WELL RUN ELECTION.

MARICOPA COUNTY RUNS A GOOD ELECTION.

IF THE DEMOCRATS WERE GOING TO FIX IT SOMEHOW, CERTAINLY THE COUNTY RECORDER, A DEMOCRAT, WOULD HAVE WON HIS ELECTION, BUT HE LOST IT TO A REPUBLICAN.

NOBODY'S INTERESTED IN ANY OF THE OTHER RACES, JUST THE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION.

SO YEAH, AND THEY'RE LOOKING FOR BAMBOO SHOOTS AND TRACES OF CHEETOH DUST OR WHATEVER ELSE ON THESE BALLOTS AND NOBODY KNOWS WHY AND THEY CAN'T REALLY EXPLAIN WHY.

YOU SAY THAT TRUMP WILL BEGIN TO FADE JUST BY THE LAWS OF NATURE.

AND YET I DON'T SEE THE EVIDENCE OF THAT IN THE SENSE THAT EVEN AFTER MITCH McCONNELL MADE A FIERY SPEECH DENOUNCING TRUMP AND MISSTATEMENTS THAT HE HAD ACTUALLY WON THE ELECTION, MORE AND MORE REPUBLICANS NOW SEEM TO BE SWINGING IN THAT DIRECTION, MORE AND MORE STATE PARTIES NOW SEEM TO BE PUSHING FOR THINGS.

THE VOTES FOR AN INVESTIGATION WERE NOT THERE.

WHAT EVIDENCE DO YOU HAVE THAT TRUMP IS RECEIVING?

WELL, HISTORY.

OTHER FORMER PRESIDENTS HAVE WANTED MORE INFLUENCE THAN THEY WERE ABLE TO EXERCISE, YOU KNOW, GIVEN THE BACKDROP OF SOCIAL MEDIA AND THE BIFURCATION OF MEDIA.

WE'RE UNDER A DIFFERENT WORLD TODAY, BUT IT WILL HAPPEN, IF FOR NO OTHER REASON OVER TIME OVER THE NEXT SEVERAL MONTHS, YOU KNOW, REPUBLICANS WANT TO REGAIN CONTROL OF THE HOUSE AND THE SENATE.

THERE ARE A NUMBER OF SWING DISTRICTS WHERE MEMBERS OF CONGRESS, REPUBLICANS OR REPUBLICAN CANDIDATES ARE GOING TO HAVE TO CREATE SOME DISTANCE BETWEEN THEMSELVES AND THE PRESIDENT IF THEY WANT TO BE SUCCESSFUL.

IN ARIZONA, LET ME JUST TAKE THE SENATE SEAT IN ARIZONA, MARK KELLY WON JUST IN NOVEMBER.

HE'S UP AGAIN.

THIS IS THE McCAIN SEAT SO THEY HAVE TO GET BACK ON THAT SCHEDULE.

YOU KNOW, RUNNING AS A TRUMPIAN CANDIDATE HASN'T EXACTLY BEEN A WINNING FORMULA SINCE THE FORMER PRESIDENT WAS ELECTED FOUR YEARS AGO, REPUBLICANS HAVE LOST NOW THE WHITE HOUSE, THE HOUSE, THE SENATE, ABOUT 400 LEGISLATIVE SEATS NATIONALLY.

SO OVER TIME REPUBLICANS, IF WE WANT TO WIN, WILL HAVE TO GO A DIFFERENT DIRECTION.

DO YOU THINK YOU SHOULD HAVE STAYED IN THE ARENA, RUN AGAIN AND TRIED TO FIGHT THIS TIDE IN RETROSPECT?

THE WAY THE PARTY IS NOW AND CERTAINLY WAS TWO YEARS AGO, I WOULD HAVE HAD TO ADOPT POLICIES THAT I HAVE NEVER ADOPTED.

I WOULD HAVE HAD TO CONDONE BEHAVIOR THAT I HAD CONDEMNED AND WOULD HAVE HAD TO BASICALLY DO A 180 IF I HAD ANY POSSIBILITY -- WELL, IF I HAD ANY POSSIBILITY OF SUCCESS IN A REPUBLICAN PRIMARY.

REMEMBER, IN ARIZONA, YOU REALLY CAN'T WIN AS A TRUMPIAN CANDIDATE STATEWIDE, BUT YOU CAN'T WIN A REPUBLICAN PRIMARY TO BE NOMINATED FOR THAT OFFICE UNLESS YOU'RE A TRUMPIAN CANDIDATE.

AND THAT WAS CERTAINLY CLEAR WHEN I NEEDED TO RUN FOR REELECTION.

I WOULD HAVE HAD TO, I KNEW, STAND ON A CAMPAIGN STAGE WITH THE PRESIDENT AT SOME POINT AND LAUGH AT HIS JOKES WHEN HE MADE FUN OF MY COLLEAGUES OR RIDICULED THEM OR WHEN HE EXHIBITED BEHAVIOR THAT I HAD PREVIOUSLY CONDEMNED.

I COULDN'T DO THAT AND WOULDN'T DO IT.

SO YEAH, I WOULD HAVE LIKED TO HAVE REMAINED IN THE ARENA.

I DON'T SUGGEST THAT I HAVE MORE INFLUENCE OUTSIDE OF IT.

I DON'T.

BUT THERE ARE SOME THINGS THAT I JUST COULDN'T DO.

GOING BACK TO DONALD TRUMP TALKING ABOUT OBAMA'S BIRTH CERTIFICATE AND YOU CALL THESE THINGS THE BIG LIE.

IT KEEPS INCREASING.

IS THIS SOMETHING THAT DONALD TRUMP HAS INJECTED INTO THE REPUBLICAN PARTY?

EVERYTHING CAN'T BE LAID AT HIS FEET IN THAT REGARD, BUT HE ACCELERATED IT.

THERE'S BEEN NOBODY AS BRAZEN AS HE WAS.

WHAT WAS DIFFICULT IS TO WATCH HIM WITH THE BIRTHERISM THING.

WHEN PEOPLE ASK, WELL, WHEN DID YOU DECIDE THAT YOU COULDN'T VOTE FOR DONALD TRUMP OR SUPPORT HIS REELECTION, IT WAS ALL THE WAY BACK WITH BIRTHERISM, WHERE HE ALLEGED THAT PRESIDENT OBAMA WASN'T BORN IN THE COUNTRY.

I KNEW THAT HE KNEW BETTER, BUT HE KNEW THAT SOME REPUBLICANS WOULD BELIEVE THAT AND HE USED THAT.

AND THAT'S WHAT WE'RE SEEING, YOU KNOW, WRIT LARGE IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY NOW WHERE WE'VE TURNED REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY KIND OF ON ITS FACE.

WHAT WE HAVE NOW IS REPRESENTATIVES IN WASHINGTON WHO KNOW SOMETHING IS FALSE, BUT THEY'RE WILLING TO GO ALONG WITH IT.

JUST ONE EXAMPLE, IN ARIZONA THE STATE REPUBLICAN CHAIRWOMAN NOW KELLY WARD, WHEN SHE WAS IN THE STATE SENATE, SHE WAS RIDICULED LATER ON FOR HOLDING A HEARING ON WHAT ARE CALLED CHEMICAL TRAILS.

THEY'RE JUST THE CONTRAILS, THE VAPOR LEFT BY AIRPLANE PLANES.

THERE'S THIS CONSERVATIVE CONSPIRACY THEORY THAT, YOU KNOW, THESE ARE SPRINKLING PIXIE DUST.

SHE SAID IN THE STATE SENATE HEARING, OH I NEVER BELIEVED THAT, BUT SOME OF MY CONSTITUENTS DID, SO I INDULGED IT BASICALLY.

WE HAVE THAT ALL GOING ON ALL THROUGHOUT THE PARTY.

DO VERY MANY REPUBLICAN ELECTED OFFICIALS REALLY BELIEVE THAT THE VOTE WAS RIGGED IN ARIZONA OR ELSEWHERE IN THE COUNTRY?

NO, THEY DON'T, BUT THEY KNOW THAT SOME PEOPLE IN THE REPUBLICAN BASE DO OR A LOT OF PEOPLE DO.

AND SO REPRESENTATIVES IN WASHINGTON ARE WILLING TO INDULGE THAT.

THAT'S NOT A COMPLETE RESULT OF FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP.

HE REALLY MADE THAT ACCEPTABLE, I GUESS.

WE'RE IN REAL TROUBLE IF THAT CONTINUES.

DO YOU THINK THERE'S SOME SYSTEMIC THINGS IN OUR AMERICAN DEMOCRACY THAT'S CAUSING THIS POLARIZATION, THIS EMBRACE OF CONSPIRACY THEORY?

CERTAIN THINGS HAVE ENABLED IT AND MADE IT EASIER, ONE, GERRYMANDER OF CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICTS MAKES IT SO THAT THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS IS A REPUBLICAN OR DEMOCRATIC PRIMARY AND BEING ON THAT THERE'S LITTLE COMPETITION.

I DO THINK SOME ELECTION REFORMS NEED TO HAPPEN, NOT IN TERMS OF BALLOT SECURITY OR WHATEVER ELSE.

WE OUGHT TO ALWAYS BE CONCERNED THAT WE HAVE FAIR ELECTIONS, BUT I THINK WE NEED TO HAVE GOOD ELECTIONS.

BUT ELECTION REFORM IN THE FORM THAT PERHAPS ALASKA HAS TAKEN IT WHERE THEY HAVE WHAT THEY CALL A TOP FOUR PRIMARY WHERE IT REALLY PUTS THE PARTIES OUT OF THE BUSINESS OF RUNNING PRIMARIES.

IN ALASKA, IN 2022, THE TOP FOUR VOTE GETTERS, REGARDLESS OF PARTY, WILL GO ONTO THE GENERAL ELECTION AND RANK CHOICE VOTING WILL BE USED TO SELECT THE WINNER.

THAT ALLOWS INDIVIDUALS WHO MAYBE WOULDN'T HAVE A CHANCE OTHERWISE.

THE REPUBLICANS ACROSS THE COUNTRY NOW ARE PUSHING MEASURES THAT WOULD RESTRICT VOTING, RESTRICT DIFFERENT WAYS TO BRING PEOPLE TO THE POLLS.

WHY IS THE PARTY DOING THAT?

WILL IT BE HARMFUL TO THE PARTY IN THE LONG RUN?

EACH PARTY IN THE POLITICAL SYSTEM, WE ALWAYS NEED TO MAKE SURE ELECTIONS ARE SECURE.

I THINK WE'VE DONE THAT AND I THINK THE EFFORTS AROUND THE COUNTRY ARE LARGELY REPUBLICANS NOW CONCERNED THAT DEMOGRAPHICS ARE GETTING AWAY FROM THEM.

FOR EXAMPLE, THINGS ARE CHANGING AND THEY WANT IN SOME CASES FEWER VOTERS.

THERE'S NO OTHER WAY TO REALLY REALISTICALLY LOOK AT WHAT'S GOING ON, BUT TO CONCLUDE THAT.

YOU MIGHT BE ABLE TO INFLUENCE AN ELECTION HERE OR THERE, BUT IT ULTIMATELY RUNS ITS COURSE.

PEOPLE WILL WANT A PARTY THAT ACTUALLY ADDRESSES NEEDS AND PROBLEMS, NOT ONE THAT TRIES TO CHOOSE ITS VOTERS.

IS THERE ROOM FOR A THIRD PARTY OF TRADITIONAL REPUBLICANS?

AND IF SO, WOULD YOU SUPPORT THAT?

I'M NOT A FAN OF THIRD PARTIES.

WE'VE SEEN EFFORTS OTHER HISTORY FOR BETTER OR WORSE.

WE SEEM TO HAVE GIVEN EACH OTHER TWO PARTIES IN THIS COUNTRY.

IT'S BEEN A SYSTEM THAT HAS WORKED FAIRLY WELL OVER TIME AND I THINK THAT WILL CONTINUE.

SO I'VE NOT BEEN PART OF ANY EFFORT.

THE REPUBLICAN PARTY HAS BEEN MY HOME FOR MY LIFE.

I STILL BELIEVE THE PRINCIPLES IN TRADITIONAL REPUBLICANISM HAS PUT FORWARD ARE THE BEST POLICIES.

I THINK IF WE CAN GET BACK TO THAT, I STILL THAT OVERALL WE HAVE A CENTER RIGHT COUNTRY.

I THINK THE FACT THAT YOU SAW THAT MANY VOTES FOR PRESIDENT TRUMP IN A GENERAL ELECTION ACROSS THE COUNTRY SHOWS THAT THERE'S STILL A YEARNING FOR CENTER RIGHT, I GUESS, POLITICS, TAX AND PARTICULARLY WITH REGARDDUCIVE REGULATORY POLICY.

BUT IF WE VARY INTO THIS KIND OF POPULIST, AUTHORITARIAN LEANING POLITICS, I THINK YOU'RE GOING TO LOSE MOST OF THE COUNTRY AND JUSTIFIABLY SO.

YOU WROTE IN THE 'WASHINGTON POST' THAT YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT LIZ CHENEY MUST BE FEELING NOW.

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

I'VE BEEN THERE.

WHEN I WAS ELECTED TO THE SENATE, YOU KNOW, I WAS ELECTED MORE AS A TRADITIONAL CONSERVATIVE.

WHEN DONALD TRUMP CAME ALONG, I KNEW THAT I COULDN'T SUPPORT THAT BRAND OF CONSERVATISM, IF YOU COULD CALL IT THAT, AND I HOPED THAT MEMBERS OF MY PARTY WOULD COME AROUND MORE TO MY LINE OF THINKING, LIKE I SAID, THAT SUBSET OF A SUBSET THAT YOU NEED TO BE RENOMINATED IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY OR AT LEAST IF THEY DIDN'T COME AROUND, THEY WOULD APPRECIATE SOMEBODY WHO STOOD FOR THESE PRINCIPLES.

IT BECAME PRETTY APPARENT ABOUT A YEAR INTO THE TRUMP PRESIDENCY THAT THAT WASN'T GOING TO HAPPEN.

I KNEW THAT IT WASN'T GOING TO CHANGE.

I THINK LIZ CHENEY HAS COME TO THE SAME CONCLUSION AND IT CAN BE A LONELY PLACE, KNOWING THAT YOU DON'T HAVE THE VOTERS WITH YOU.

YOU'RE OUT OF STEP WITH YOUR PARTY.

SO I DO KNOW HOW SHE IS FEELING AND I HOPE AND I THINK SHE'S STILL HOPING THAT SHE CAN BRING PEOPLE AROUND.

I CERTAINLY THINK THAT SHE HAS DONE THE RIGHT THINGS, THE THINGS THAT SHE KNOWS SHE NEEDS TO DO.

WHETHER THAT WILL BE ENOUGH, YOU KNOW, CURRENTLY WHERE THE PARTY IS, IS ANOTHER QUESTION.

JEFF FLAKE, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

THANKS FOR HAVING ME.