“The Infernal Machine” Author on Power, Polarization and Political Violence

NOW WE LOOK BACK TO AN EARLIER TIME OF EXTREMIST TURMOIL.

NEW YORK IN THE EARLY 20th CENTURY WHEN VIOLENT ANARCHISTS THREATENED THE ESTABLISHED ORDER AND IS THE FOCUS OF STEPHEN JOHNSON'S NEW BOOK THE INFERNL MACHINE AND HERE HE IS DISCUSSING IT WITH WALTER ISAACSON.

>> THANK YOU, AND STEVEN JOHNSON, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> HEY.

THANK YOU.

IT'S GREAT TO BE BACK.

>> ALL OF YOUR WONDERFUL BOOKS, THEY TEND TO LOOK AT AN INTERSECTION, AN INTERWEAVING OF TECHNOLOGY AND BIG SOCIAL MOVEMENTS AND ISSUES AND POLICIES, AND THIS LATEST ONE, "THE INFERNAL MACHINE" REFERRING TO DYNAMITE TALKS ABOUT THE INVENTION OF DYNAMITE AND THEN THE RISE OF AN ARCISM AS A POLITICAL PHILOSOPHY AND THEN THE BACKLASH FROM STATE SURVEILLANCE AND POLICING.

SO LET'S START WITH THE INVENTION OF DYNAMITE AND WE KNOW THE FOUNDER OF THE NOBEL PEACE PRIZE AND HE IS ALSO THE ONE THAT INVENTS DYNAMITE.

TELL US THE STORY.

>> IT IS A TRAGIC STORY AND NOBEL HAD BEEN OBSESSED WITH THIS NEWLY DISCOVERED CHEMICAL, NITROGLYCERIN WHICH WAS REALLY THE FIRST REAL INNOVATION IN EXPLOSIONS SINCE GUNPOWDER, AND HAD JUST BEEN DISCOVERED IN THE 1840s AND MOST PEOPLE THAT MESSED AROUND WITH NITROGLYCERIN DECIDED IT WAS TOO UNSTABLE AND HE COULDN'T HANDLE IT IN A WAY THAT THEY COULDN'T CAUSE IT TO DETONATE RANDOMLY AND A NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO EXPLORED IN THAT PERIOD WERE EITHER INJURED OR KILLED AND NOBEL THOUGHT THERE WAS A WAY TO TAME THIS NEW CHEMICAL, AND HE HAD THIS VISION OF THE CONTROLLED EXPLOSION.

THAT IF YOU COULD FIGURE OUT A WAY TO DETONATE IT ON COMMAND IN A SAFE WAY AND CREATE A PORTABLE FORM OF IT THAT COULD BE TRANSPORTED WITHOUT IT ACTUALLY BLOWING UP AND THEN IT WOULD REVOLUTIONIZE CIVIL ENGINEERING AND YOU COULD BUILD RAILROADS AND CARVE OUT NEW MINES AND TUNNELS AND BUILD.

>> YOU TALK AND WHENEVER YOU WRITE ABOUT TECHNOLOGY AND YOUR BOOKS ARE ALWAYS ABOUT INVENTION AND TECHNOLOGY AND INNOVATION THAT THERE TENDS TO BE A TREND, NOT ALWAYS, BUT TENDS TO BE A TREND THAT EMPOWERS THE INDIVIDUAL AND IN OTHER WORDS, IT TAKES POWER FROM CENTRALIZED AUTHORITIES AND THE INVENTION OF DYNAMITE FOLLOWS A PATTERN THAT HAS GENERALLY BEEN TRUE OF SCIENTIFIC ADVANCES OVER THE LONG TERM.

SCIENTISTS AND TECHNOLOGY PUTS EVER-INCREASING POWER IN THE HANDS OF SMALLER AND SMALLER GROUPS.

I MEAN, THAT'S TRUE FROM EVERYTHING FROM THE INTERNET TO SOCIAL MEDIA AND TO DYNAMITE AND SO THAT CAUSES A POLITICAL REPERCUSSION.

THE POSITIVE AND YOU CAN HAVE A SMALLER TEAM AND YOU NEEDED VAST AMOUNTS OF GUNPOWDER AND PEOPLE COULDN'T MOVE THAT GUNPOWDER AROUND IF YOU WERE GOING TO BLAST YOUR WAY THROUGH THE MOUNTAINSIDE AND YOU COULD DO IT WITH A CHEAP, PORTABLE CANISTER OF DYNAMITE.

SO IT BASICALLY CREATED A MORE COMPACT TECHNOLOGY IN BUILDING RAILROAD, BUT IT TURNED OUT THAT A NUMBER OF PEOPLE INITIALLY IN EUROPE AND THEN IN THE UNITED STATES BEGAN TO REAL A THAT IT GAVE THEM A DIFFERENT KIND OF POWER, A WAY TO STAGE THESE VIOLENT ACTS THAT ONE SINGLE PERSON OR A SMALL GROUP COULD DO THAT COULD BLOW UP A CAFE OR A COURTHOUSE, AND WE SEE IN THE 1870s AND 1880s THE FIRST REAL EXAMPLE OF TERRORISM AS WE KNOW IT TODAY CULMINATING WITH A LONG SET PIECE IN THE BOOK ABOUT THIS IN THE ASSASSINATION OF ALEXANDER II THE RUSSIAN INTRAR WHO WAS KILLED BY HISTORY'S FIRST SUICIDE BOMBER.

AND THAT -- AND THAT JUST SPREADS ACROSS THE GLOBE AND THE ANARCHISTS GET SO INTIMATELY CONNECTED WITH THIS NEW INNOVATION FROM NOBEL THAT THEY BECOME KNOWN AS THE DYNAMITE CLUB.

>> BUT THESE ARE ANARCHISTS AND THAT'S A NEW POLITICAL MOVEMENT THAT COMES UP AT THE SAME TIME THAT DYNAMITE COMES UP AND THE ANARCHISTS OR EVERYBODY FROM EMMA GOLDMAN TO ALEXANDER BROOKMAN AND PETER, THEY ARE ALL GREAT KISHCHARACTERS IN YOUR BO.

TELL ME, WHAT IS YOUR POLITICAL PHILOSOPHY?

>> IT'S BEEN LOST IN THE POPULAR PERCEPTION OF WHAT ANARCHISM IS BECAUSE THEIR CORE IDEA WAS THAT INDUSTRIALIZATION HAD CREATED THIS VIOLENT SOCIETY AND THE BODY COUNT AND CARNAGE OF THE EMERGING FACTORY SYSTEM OF THAT PERIOD WAS FAR MORE VIOLENT THAN THE ACTS OF TERRORISM THAT THEY WERE PERPETUATING.

>> TO EXPLAIN THAT, YOU TALK ABOUT THE WEEPER FACTORY OR THE U.S. STEEL FACTORIES.

PEOPLE ARE DYING EVERY WEEK, RIGHT?

>> YES.

YES.

I MEAN, WAS THERE SOME KIND OF SURVEY OF ONE COUNTY OF INDUSTRIAL PITTSBURGH OVER A YEAR WITH 529 DEATHS AND THAT'S JUST DEATHS, BUT THE NUMBER OF DISMEMBERMENTS FROM THESE ACCIDENTS AND EACH ONE IS AN ACCIDENT AND NO ONE IS TRYING TO KILL THE WORKERS, BUT IT WAS PREDICTABLE IT WAS GOING TO HAPPEN AND YOU COULD SEE THIS WAS HAPPENING AND THE RAILROAD INDUSTRY WAS INCREDIBLY DANGEROUS AT THAT POINT, AND SO THE ANARCHISTS BELIEVED THAT THERE WAS ACTUALLY A BETTER WAY TO ORGANIZE SOCIETY AND THAT WE HAD LIVED THROUGH IT DURING THE RENAISSANCE, BASICALLY, IN SMALL COMMUNITIES OF ARTISANS AND GUILDS WHERE THERE WASN'T A LOT OF SOCIAL HIERARCHY AND THERE WEREN'T GIANT CORPORATIONS AND GRO TFK FACTUALLIES AND LIFE WAS PRETTY GOOD AND FOR PEOPLE LIKE THEM WERE SLOWING DOWN THE PACE OF TECHNOLOGICAL INNOVATION AND REINS IN THESE HUGE TITANS OF INDUSTRY AND ALSO LARGE GOVERNMENT AEMSS AND RETURNING THAT ALMOST VILLAGE LIFE.

>> LET ME READ SOMETHING ELSE OF YOUR BOOK, MEASURED AGAINST THE LANDSCAPE EMMA BERGUM ENCOUNTERED AS YOUNG ADULTS THE MUCH-LAMENTED TRUMP ERA WAS A LOT LESS SEVERE.

WAS THE POLARIZATION LESS SEVERE THAN IT IS NOW?

>> ONE, YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT A WORLD WHERE THERE'S SO MUCH MORE POLITICAL VIOLENCE.

WE'VE JUST COME OFF OF JANUARY 6th AND OBVIOUSLY, THAT WAS A SHOCKING EVENT, BUT THE NUMBER OF ASSASSINATIONS AND THE NUMBER OF RIOTS AND THE NUMBER OF TERRORIST ACTS AND DOMESTIC TERRORIST ACTS AND WHAT WAS JUST FAR MORE, TREATMENT, YOU KNOW, 110 YEARS AGO, 120 YEARS AGO, AND IF YOU THINK ABOUT THE VALUE AND THE RANGE OF POLITICAL POSITIONS, RIGHT?

ONE OF THE MAJOR EVENTS THAT HAPPENS IN THE BOOK IS THE MASSACRE WHERE ROCKEFELLER EMPLOYED MILITIA TO BURN DOWN AN ENCAMPMENT OF STRIKING WORKERS IN COLORADO AND ENDED UP KILLING A NUMBER OF THEM INCLUDING SOME CHILDREN.

AND YOU BASICALLY HAVE A SITUATION WHERE ONE SIDE OF THE DEBATE IS SAYING, LISTEN, IF PEOPLE GO ON STRUCK TO REDUCE THEIR 60-HOUR WORKWEEK DOWN TO THE 40-HOUR WORKWEEK THEN THAT'S AN APPROPRIATE SIGN TO DO IT.

THE OTHERS THINK ABOUT TURNING THE GUILT-DRIVEN SOCIETY.

THOSE POLLS DO NOT EXIST ANYMORE.

WE ARE A MUCH MORE NARROW PART OF THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM NOW, AND SO I THINK IT DOES GIVE US SOME CONTEXT ABOUT THE SOCIETY WE LIVE IN NOW LOOKING BACK AT A PERIOD REALLY NOT THAT FAR IN THE PAST.

>> THE THIRD THEME IN YOUR BOOK THAT GETS WOVEN INTO IT IS THAT THE BOMBINGS AND ANARCHISM LEAD TO THE RISE OF THE SURVEILLANCE AND POLICING TACTICS AND THAT INCLUDES NEW INVENTIONS LIKE THE FINGER PRINT BEING A NEW IDEA AND ALSO TO THE RISE OF WHAT WE SEE IN POLICING NOW OF KEEPING TRACK OF PEOPLE.

TELL ME HOW THAT FITS IN.

>> IN A WAY, THAT'S ACTUALLY WHERE I BEGAN IN THIS PROJECT THAT I WAS INTERESTED.

AS YOU SAID I'M INTERESTED IN NEW IDEAS AND NEW SCIENTIFIC IDEAS AND TECHNOLOGICAL IDEAS AND THE FIRST THOUGHT I HAD WAS MAYBE THERE WAS A BOOK ABOUT THE HISTORY OF FORENSIC SCIENCES AND POLICING AND THE IDENTIFICATION AND THINGS LIKE THAT.

ONE OF THE CRAZY THINGS IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT IS 120 OR 120 YEARS AGO BEFORE THAT STUFF WAS DEVELOPED AND THERE WAS NO STANDARDIZED FORM OF IDENTIFICATION.

SO IF YOU WERE ARRESTED YOU COULD JUST MAKE UP A NAME AND THEY'D HAVE NO WAY TO KNOW WHO YOU WERE.

SO THERE WAS A FLURRY OF ACTIVITY, IN LARGE PART AS I DOCUMENTED IN THE BOOK IT WAS TRIGGEREDED BY ANARCHIST ACTIVITY LED BY ALFONSE BERTION, AND THAT'S WHAT WE WOULD TALK PHOTOGRAPHY AND MEASURING BODY PARTS AND THEN THE SCIENCE OF FINGERPRINT TECHNOLOGY STARTS TO EMERGE JUST AS THE ANICUS IS STARTING TO EMERGE AND THEY CO-DEVELOP ALONGSIDE EACH OTHER.

THE A REALLY INTERESTING CHARACTERS IN THE -- IN NEW YORK IN THAT PERIOD ON EITHER RUNNING NYPD OR PART OF THE NYPD AND PARTICULARLY IT'S TWO GUYS AND ARTHUR WOODS AND WHO ARE LARGELY FORGOTTEN, I THINK HE GETS TO RIDE IT AND A LONDON -- AND IF HE BUILDS A LITTLE ROGUE IDENTIFICATION BUREAU INSIDE OF THE NYPD AND WINS A COUPLE OF CASES AND SLOWLY STARTS TO PROVE OUT THIS NEW SCIENCE AND SO IT'S -- IN A SENSE THE BATTLE BETWEEN TWO IDEAS.

THE IDEA OF ANARCHISM AND THE IDEA OF TERRORISM AND ON THE OTHER SIDE THE IDEA OF USING THESE NEW, STATE-SUPPORTED SYSTEMS AND ANALYSIS AND IDENTIFICATION TO KEEP THAT THREAT IN CHECK.

>> ANOTHER IMPORTANT CHARACTER NEAR THE END OF THE BOOK IS ONE MOST PEOPLE HAVE HEARD OF, OF COURSE, J. EDGAR HOOVER AND THERE WAS A PASSAGE ABOUT HIM AND WE THINK ABOUT HOOVER AS INVESTIGATING MARTIN LUTHER KING AND BOBBY KENNEDY, BUT THERE IS A PASSAGE ABOUT HIM ABOUT HOW HE HELPS CREATE SCIENTIFIC POLICING.

WHEN HISTORIANS CATALOG THE MOMENTOUS INVENTIONS OF HISTORY, THE PRINTING PRESS, THE TELESCOPE AND THE THEME, AND THE TOOLS THAT HELP US EXPLORE THE EVER LARGER POOLS OF INFORMATION AND WIDEN THE NET WE CAN CAST IN THOSE POOLS CAN OFTEN TRIGGER INFLEXION POINTS IN HISTORY.

TELL ME ABOUT J. EDGAR HOOVER'S ED EDITORIAL FILE SYSTEM.

>> HOOVER -- AND THIS HAS BEEN WELL DOCUMENTED BUT CENTRAL TO THIS STORY WAS TRAINED AS A LIBRARIAN.

HE WORKED AT THE LIBRARY OF CONGRESS AS A TEENAGER AND THERE WAS A NEW FILE SYSTEM THAT HAD BEEN DEVELOPED FOR THE LIBRARY OF CONGRESS AND IT MADE IT EASY TO FILE THE INFORMATION SO YOU COULD FIND WHAT YOU WERE LOOKING FOR.

WHEN HE BEGAN CALLING THEN THE BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION THAT THEN BECAME THE FBI HE WAS SET IN CHARGE OF WHAT WAS TO DEAL WITH THE ANARCHISTS POSITION AND IT WAS AROUND 1817 AND HE SET UP THE SYSTEM MODELED AFTER THE LIBRARY OF CONGRESS CALLED THE EDITORIAL FILE SYSTEM AND IT'S WHAT WE WOULD CALL A RELATIONAL DATABASE WHERE YOU HAD INDEX CARDS THAT WERE CONNECTED TO BOTH BETWEEN PEOPLE, PLACES, EVENTS, PUBLICATIONS AND ALLEGED CRIMES AND THEY ARE ALL CROSS REFERENCED.

AND SO IF YOU WERE TRYING TO PULL ALL OF THE POTENTIAL SUBVERSIVES WHO WERE AT A PARTICULAR RALLY AT ANY MOMENT OF TIME YOU CAN GATHER THAT INFORMATION BECAUSE OF THIS TECHNIQUE THAT HOOVER HAD DESIGNED, YOU KNOW, TEN TIMES FASTER THAN YOU USED TO DO BEFORE AND ONE PERSON CAN DO IT INSTEAD OF TEN PEOPLE.

YOU'D GET MORE A MORE EFFICIENT GATHERING OF INFORMATION, AND THAT WAS THE TECHNIQUE THAT IT WAS THE FIRST DEPLOYMENT OF THE EDITORIAL FILE SYSTEM AND THE FIRST ATTEMPT TO WEAPONIZE LIBRARY SCIENCE WHICH IS EFFECTIVELY WHAT HOOVER IS DOING WAS USED TO DEPORT EMMA GOLDMAN AND ALEXANDER BROOKMAN TO REVOLUTIONARY RUSSIA IN 1919.

>> I COULDN'T HELP THINKING ABOUT WHAT YOU WERE ACTUALLY DOING NOW BECAUSE YOU WORKED PART-TIME AT GOOGLE NOW, QUITE A BIT OF YOUR TIME AT GOOGLE NOW, CREATING NOTEBOOK LM WHICH IS A LARGE LANGUAGE MODEL TYPE CHATBOT LIKE CHATGPT OR FOR THAT MATTER, GOOGLE'S GEMINI, BUT IT TRAINS ON YOUR OWN DATA.

YOU GET TO PUT IN THE DATA SET YOU WANT.

IT'S ABSOLUTELY FASCINATING AND IT SORT OF FEEDS INTO THIS NOTION OF DATA SCIENCE THAT YOU TALK ABOUT IN THE BOOK.

EXPLAIN WHAT YOU'RE DOING THERE.

ONE OF THE THINGS I'VE ALWAYS BEEN INTERESTED IN AND IT'S A VARED INTEREST IS THE HISTORY TOOLS FOR THOUGHT AND USING SOFTWARE THAT HELP US WRITE, THINK AND CREATE AND WHAT THEY DISCOVERED TWO YEARS AGO IS THE LANGUAGE MODELS CAN BE HARNESSED IN A WAY TO MAKE THAT PROCESS WAY MORE EFFECTIVE AND WHAT WE STARTED TO DEVELOP, BASICALLY GOOGLE REACHED OUT TO ME AND SAID HEY CAN YOU HELP US DEVELOP A TOOL THAT YOU'VE DREAMT OF YOUR WHOLE LIFE BECAUSE WE NOW HAVE THIS TECHNOLOGY THAT COULD BE EXTRAORDINARY.

WHAT IT DOES, AS YOU SUGGESTED,EN STEAD OF CHATTING WITH A MODEL WITH A GENERAL KNOWLEDGE OF THE MODEL YOU GIVE NOTEBOOK LM A SET OF DOCUMENTS THAT ARE IMPORTANT TO YOU.

IN MY CASE THEY MIGHT BE DOCUMENTS FOR A BOOK I'M WORKING ON OR PERSONAL DOCUMENTS, WHATEVER IT IS.

AT THAT POINT ONCE YOU'VE UPLOADED STHEM IT IS ALMOST AS IF THE MODEL BECOMES AN EXPERT IN THE WORK THAT YOU'VE GIVE 10 TO SEE AND IT REDUCES HALLUCINATIONS DRAMATICALLY AND MAKES IT MUCH MORE PERSONALIZED AND IT'S ABLE TO TALK ABOUT THE INFORMATION THAT YOU CARE ABOUT AND NOT JUST GENERAL INFORMATION OF THE WORLD.

SO FOR INSTANCE, I HAVE NOTEBOOK I HAVE ONE NOTEBOOK WHERE I HAVE LOADED UP 7,000 QUOTE AILZS THAT I'VE READ AND MY RESEARCH NOTES AND I'VE BEEN COLLECTING FROM BOOKS AND I CAN GO IN THERE AND SAY WHAT ARE SOME OF THE MOST INTERESTING THINGS ABOUTANT COLONIES ORR DOLPHINS AND THE HISTORY OF FORENSIC SCIENCE AND CREATE AN OVERVIEW WITH CITATIONS AND ORIGINAL QUOTES SO I CAN GET A SENSE OF MY LANDSCAPE IN THE RESEARCH NOTES AND IT WILL GENERATE THAT DOCUMENT IN 30 SECONDS.

IS AND SO MY ABILITY TO EXPLORE THESE VAST TOMES OF INFORMATION IS ASSEMBLING THE INFORMATION COULD BE DONE IN AN AUTOMATIC WAY AND I'M FREED UP TO ACTUALLY HAVE THE IMPORTANT THOUGHTS AND TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO CREATIVELY PUT IT ON THE PAGE.

I'M VERY EXCITED ABOUT IT.

>> THE THEME OF YOUR BOOK IS PARTLY ABOUT HOW DATA SCIENCE CAN HELP US KWL GREAT WAYS, GOOD WAYS, CRIME SOLVING AND PERHAPS GIVE MORE POWER TO THE GOVERNMENT TO KEEP AN EYE ON US.

IN GENERAL, AS WE LOOK AT THE DATA SCIENCE THAT'S HAPPENING NOW, THE ABILITY TO PROCESS JUST HUGE AMOUNTS OF DATA AND FIND PATTERNS, HOW DO YOU THINK THAT'S GOING TO AFFECT SOCIETY?

>> I THINK, YOU KNOW, WITH ANY TECHNOLOGICAL REVOLUTION THAT IS SIGNIFICANT, THEY'RE GOING TO BE UNANTICIPATED REGULAR DOWNSTREAM CONSEQUENCES AND THAT JUST HAPPENS WHEN YOU HAVE COMPLEX TECHNOLOGIES, BUT I THINK PARTICULARLY WITH THE AI TECHNOLOGY THAT WE HAVE TODAY THAT THE OPPORTUNITIES FOR IT TO BE USED FOR GOOD AND FOR -- IT'S AN EXTRAORDINARY TECHNOLOGY FOR JUST ENHANCING YOUR ABILITY TO UNDERSTAND MATERIAL AND SINCE ANYBODY NOW HAS ACCESS TO A TUTOR THAT CAN EXPLAIN THINGS TO THEM AND HELP THEM DIVE DEEPER INTO THE MATERIAL AND SO IN THE END, I THINK, TECHNOLOGIES THAT ENHANCE HUMAN UNDERSTANDING AND ALLOW US TO BE MORE CREATIVE AND COME UP WITH MORE ORIGINAL IDEAS THAT WHILE THAT TECHNOLOGY CAN BE DEPLOYED FOR VARIOUS ENDS IN SOME CASES, WE STILL IN THE END WILL BE EXCITED THAT WE HAVE THIS TECHNOLOGY BECAUSE IT IS FUNDAMENTALLY AN ENHANCER OF THE UNDERSTANDING OF THE WORLD.

>> STEPHEN JOHNSON, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.