“The Talk:” Graphic Memoir on Growing Up Black in America

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, HOST: And the Wimbledon Championships begin on Monday. Next, to racial equality and the conversation that many black parents all across America have with their children, preparing them to recognize and reduce the risk of violence, including at the hands of discriminatory policing. Pulitzer Prize-winning cartoonist, Darrin Bell, has drawn a graphic memoir about how “The Talk” impacted his life. And he is joining Michel Martin to share his story.

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MICHEL MARTIN, CONTRIBUTOR: Thanks, Christiane. Darrin Bell, thank you so much for talking with us.

DARRIN BELL, AUTHOR, “THE TALK”: Thank you for having me.

MARTIN: People may know you from your strip, “Candorville,” which, you know, runs and syndicated, it runs all over the country. What made this the time to write a graphic novel?

BELL: Well, I — this is not actually the graphic novel that I sold to the publisher. I saw the different memoire about my time as my grandfather’s caretaker toward the end of his life. But as I was working on the first couple of chapters, George Floyd was murdered and the summer protest started. And my editor, we had a conversation and we decided we should probably put that book on the backburner and do another book that spoke to what was happening now.

MARTIN: So, I would say that “The Talk” feels different to me though, in tone and — I mean, certainly stylistically, artistically it is in alignment with your other work, but just totally, it doesn’t go for funny. In the wake of not just George Floyd, I want to say Trayvon Martin, I want to say Tamir Rice, how many examples of black boys and men experiencing violence, either through vigilantism or through, you know, police violence. What was your concept of expressing ideas about “The Talk” in this way?

BELL: Well, it’s framed with the phenomenon of police violence. But “The Talk” is not just about that. “The Talk” is about how racism and discrimination comes at you from different places, from unexpected places and it comes at you differently at different points in your life. When your kid, it might be a kid telling you that you have big ugly lips or when you’re — you know, when you’re older, it might be a home appraiser valuing you’re $600,000 for $250,000. And so, “The Talk,” the book takes us through about 40 years of history, 40 years of personal growth. There are some love stories in it, there’s, you know, stories of friendship. It is a coming-of-age story. But it’s also an examination of how you are continually buffeted by these rude interruptions, these rude racist interruptions, and you have to figure out how to deal with it. You can either let it beat you or you could let it help you find your voice, find who you are — and despite what other people are telling you you are.

MARTIN: I’ll start with one of the first experiences you have in the book – – that you talk about in the book. It is a confrontation when you’re playing with toy water gun, and you’re just a little guy, you know, like six years old. He — would you talk about that? I assumed that really happened?

BELL: It did. It did. It happened when I was six. I saw some little kids in the park playing with water guns. Realistic looking. They look like — I think they were — they look like revolvers. And I asked my mom to get me a gun, and she told me I couldn’t have one. But the next day she saw how crushed I was by that so she bought me a water gun that was bright green and transparent and she gave me the talk, which didn’t make any sense to me. She told me that this gun was going to keep me alive, and I thought that this is paranoia. So, as soon as I could, as soon as she wasn’t looking, I snuck out and I went all over the neighborhood shooting everything I could see, stop signs, benches, pretending that they were stormtroopers and I was Luke Skywalker escaping the Death Star. And I bent down to reload it and I heard someone say, drop the weapon. And I looked up and it was a police officer. And for a split second I thought he was playing with me, but the look on his face told me this was serious. And I just froze and I got down on the ground and I closed my eyes and I wished he would go away. And eventually he did, after he was done barking orders at me. And I carried so much shame from that interaction for years. I didn’t tell anybody until I was much — until I was older. And I felt like I had brought that on myself. First of all, because I ignored my mom. I didn’t believe. And second of all, I thought, I must’ve been acting like a criminal. I’m — you know, I thought I provoked that police officer. And if only I had could act more respectable and played by all the rules, nothing bad will happen to me.

And I held onto that respectability politics for another decade or so until another rude interruption showed me that no matter how good I do, no matter how well-behaved, how accomplished, how ambitious I am, someone is still going to come along and say, it doesn’t matter how you see yourself, this is how I see you.

MARTIN: Why do you think you didn’t tell anybody for so long?

BELL: Well, you know, when you’re six you don’t realize how small are you.

MARTIN: Yes.

BELL: I thought that I should’ve done something. I should have stood up to the police officer. You know, I was ashamed that I cried. I was ashamed that I froze. You know, I thought I was 10 feet tall and, you know, I could’ve talked some sense into him, at least, but I didn’t even try that. So, it was just an overwhelming sense of shame.

MARTIN: This is years before Tamir Rice, the story that — for people who I hope people remember, was a 12-year-old playing with a toy gun. This was an Ohio in 2014, and was shot to death in front of his 14-year-old sister. The other thing that strikes me is that your mom is white, your dad is African American. Your mom is the one who is having the talk with you.

BELL: Right.

MARTIN: Can you say more about that?

BELL: My father refused — he refused to talk about anti-black racism, especially racism coming from white people. I think what happened was, I was a child and he had his experiences. He had seen his father’s experiences. And he didn’t — I don’t think he wanted the world to be the same for me and I think he was the kind of person who thought that you could create your own reality, that if you pretend it to not happening, then it can’t hurt you. And my mother, on the other hand, did not have that personal experience. So, she — it was more academic for her. She was a little bit removed from it. So, I don’t think she had the same fears that my father had. My mom didn’t know how it would make me feel. So, she was comfortable in telling me.

MARTIN: You know, gaslighting is a big — is also a part of the book.

BELL: Right.

MARTIN: When you, Darrin, you, try to make sense of these experiences with some member — even your brother and sometimes your friends, they act like it’s not happening, it’s — or they — or like it’s not about this, it’s actually about that.

BELL: Yes.

MARTIN: You know, I think a lot of people have had this experience. I mean, you know, you talk about perhaps being followed in the store and you say that to the wrong person or to somebody you who think is a friend and then, this is where the great dividing line happens, when they go, are you sure?

BELL: Right.

MARTIN: Was it really that? And then, your whole experience is being discounted and you — you know, and I’m just — I just wanted to ask if you would talk a little bit about that?

BELL: We are told that it’s noble, it’s enlightened to not go straight to that, you know, to entertain the notion that these things might be caused by any one of like thousands of other reasons, except for the one most obvious reason, we’re somehow playing victim or, you know, we are being unfair and, you know, who has been telling us that for hundreds of years, you know? The people who want us to think that. The people who want us to give them the benefit of the doubt when they don’t deserve it.

And, you know, I’m not talking about white people in general, I’m talking about races. I’m talking about even people of color who’ve internalized and are direct — you know, like the security guard who was following me around was black, you know. The one who thought I was no good, even though his never seen me before.

MARTIN: I just wondered if you think this experience of having your experiences denied and not validated kind of —

BELL: Right.

MARTIN: Where do you think that fits into the work that you do today?

BELL: Well, I think that the work that I do today revolves around that. It revolves around denying the gaslighting, you know. And I do not care, you know, whether people tell me that I’m imagining it, that it’s all in my head. I mean, how patronizing is it where humans are very good at discerning other people’s attitude? We could tell if they’re a jealous, if they’re angry. You know, we could tell someone is hungry. But people tell us that black people in particular are not able to tell when someone is racist. That we’re not able to understand body language or tone of voice or even the words coming out of their mouths, that we misconstrue all of it. Ever since the civil rights era, some portion of this country thinks racism is all in the past. We took care of it then. It is all over. But it’s not.

MARTIN: Who do you think this book is for? Do you have someone in mind that you hope will find it?

BELL: This book is for a broad audience. It’s for people like my father who were uncomfortable with giving the talk. I think if this book had been around in the early ’80s, my father probably could’ve just sat down with me and read it. And, you know, we would have the discussion or not. But it would’ve been a big help for him. It would help him find the courage to do it. It’s also for children of parents like that who haven’t had the talk and need it. It’s also for anybody who is not black who doesn’t understand what black people have been complaining about. Because I — I mean, half my family is white and I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard them say, over the years, just offhand, why are black people always complaining? But if you read this book, for 350 pages or so, you will — you can understand.

MARTIN: I want to go back to what you just said, something that your — you know, half of your family is why. Your mom’s side of the family is white. And your dad could have shared these experiences with them, just like he could have talked to you, but he didn’t and he didn’t want to.

BELL: My father was choosing to pretend it wasn’t happening. You know, we would go to a relative’s house when I was a kid and I loved going over there because it meant I would get donuts. The reason I would get donuts is because after about 10 or 20 minutes, my father would hear so many racial slurs and — yes, about us, about his son that he would get up and take me to the corner to (INAUDIBLE). I didn’t know why we were there, but I was just going with it.

MARTIN: Why was he there? Why was he there? Subjecting himself and you to that?

BELL: Well, those were his in-laws. And, you know, he wanted to keep the peace and he wanted us to know our family, he just didn’t want us to know them for who they — you know, for who they really were and he didn’t want to challenge what they were saying, especially in front of us. Because he didn’t want us to live in a — he didn’t want us to think that we lived in a world where racism existed.

MARTIN: But what do you say that, you know, now that you’re older? Like what do you say to that, that, you know, geez, just couldn’t kids have some sort of a zone of innocence where they don’t have to think about these things?

BELL: Well, yes, they should. And when you have the talk, it should be age appropriate, you know. When you are talking to a small child you have to emphasize that this is a failing in other people, that there’s nothing wrong with them, that they should ignore it and just play and just — you know, just have fun. And, you know, you don’t have to tell them everything that’s going to happen to them in life, but, you know, tell them things that they can relate to. And I think it’s not just a one-way thing, you asked them about their own life, about how — you know, how their friends are treating them. If they’re not experiencing anything that you think is racism, maybe it’s not time to have the talk yet. But if, for instance, as it happened in my book, someone makes fun of their lips being big or their hair being different, you know, that’s when you talk about it.

MARTIN: And what about to white parents who might be listening to this conversation and they think, well, I don’t need to introduce that, or even people who feel that talking about it actually enhances division, it just, it is division, you know, is that point of view?

BELL: There is. I mean, you know, ignorance is bliss is a saying for a reason. But, you know, ignorance always also eventually leads to tragedy. If — I think white parents need to have the talk with their white children because it’s going to affect them. Someday they might — you know, they’re grow up and they might say the wrong thing out of ignorance, like they didn’t know that what they were saying was racist or hurtful, they might get fired over that, they might get canceled over that. Why would you want them just stumbling through life, stumbling through minefields without knowing that it’s a minefield?

So, I think, you know, the notion — and the notion that it’s divisive, you know, if you didn’t personally own slams and if you didn’t personally, you know, turn a fire hose on anybody or sic dogs on them or beat them, you don’t need to feel guilty about it, you just need to be knowledgeable. Like I learned — you know, we learned all sorts of atrocities. We learned about the holocaust when we were — when I was a small kid. We had a holocaust survivor come in and speak to us, that wasn’t divisive, you know, that was education, you know. If they — if you yourself are not a racist, then this is just education. You know, it’s not an attack. It is not an accusation.

MARTIN: Darrin Bell, thank you so much for talking with us.

BELL: Thank you for your time. It has been an honor of being on the show.

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