The Untold Story of Malcolm X

BIANNA GOLODRYGA: Well, next, we examine the powerful but polarizing legacy of civil rights icon, Malcolm X, following the recent exoneration of two of his convicted assassins. This year’s Pulitzer Prize for biography delves into a never-before-seen world of its protagonist. “The Dead are Arising” was 30 years in the making, and co-authors by Tamara Payne and her late father, Les. She finished the work after his passing. Here is Tamar speaking with Michel Martin about Malcolm X’s life and death.

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MICHEL MARTIN, CONTRIBUTOR: Thanks, Bianna. Tamara Payne, thank you so much for talking with us.

TAMARA PAYNE, AUTHOR, “THE DEAD ARE ARISING”: Thank you for having me, Michel.

MARTIN: As we speaking now, there has been incredible moves in the story that you and your father spent years of researching and writing about. I mean, as we are speaking now, two of the men who were convicted and spent decades in prison for the murder of Malcolm X were finally exonerated. Muhammad Aziz who is 88 and Khalil Islam who died in 2009, they spent decades in prison for the murder of Malcolm X. Why did it take so long to clear their names? Do you know?

PAYNE: Well, I think that’s the question that needs to be answered. We interviewed both of them. Khalil Islam as well Muhammad Abdul Aziz. And both of them told us they had — they were not there inside the ballroom. And as we laid out in the book, the assassination team does come from Newark in the Newark Mosque. But the thing is, what’s shocking, because I did read the motion, the joint motion that was filed last week, and what’s shocking is on — there was a report in there that was dated February 22, 1965, the day after Malcolm was killed. And they stayed in this report that possibly the killers were transported into New York. This is an FBI file. So, they have this information. And they also said that we’re able to name, in that file, the day after Malcolm was killed, that the shooters were sitting in the front row. And so, we didn’t have these unredacted reports. We did our own investigation and asking people on what — you know, what they saw or what they experienced. But reading that list was really chilling to find out that as early as February 22, 1965 that they actually had a description, for example, of the man on the shotgun.

MARTIN: You know, subsequently, he confessed to killing Malcolm X but he also subsequently made clear that the other two men who were convicted along with him were not involved. So, why all these years did they just languish in prison sort of all these years?

PAYNE: Halim who was caught on the scene by the crowd and was beaten up by crowd outside of the Audubon, yes, he actually, at first, testified that he had nothing to the Nation of Islam. But then he changed it because he realized that these two men that were on trial with him, they had nothing to do with the assassination. So, he, you know, wanted the clear their name. And even if the trial, he spent over two decades just helping with giving, you know, out the descriptions of the other killers. Giving out the names even and how it came together in an affidavit. And so, this is information that he provided. He changed his mind in the middle of the trial and he worked diligently to try to clear this. Again, the question goes back to the authorities.

MARTIN: So, let’s go back a bit then. Malcolm was born in Omaha, Nebraska. Later moved to Lansing, Michigan. Your book opens with this just really horrifying scene where his mother who’s pregnant with one of her eight children, her husband who is an itinerant preacher, who is sort of a circuit writing preacher is a way at the time, and the clan comes to their house and threatens them.

PAYNE: Yes.

MARTIN: And she, as it’s described in the book, stands her ground even though you could imagine how terrifying this would have been. This woman alone in the house with little children and they’re trying to, what, intimidate her because her husband was outspoken. They were followers of Marcus Garvey and (INAUDIBLE). So, this is how it like open. So, it’s usually kind of a context for how he grew up. I mean, he was a paid criminal. I mean, this is not a secret. Everybody knows this is about him. And that, at some point, he discovers the Nation of Islam. Could you just talk a little bit more about what position he held and why he was such an important figure?

PAYNE: You know, the purpose of this book really is to look at Malcolm because of the interviews that we were able to get and obtain and have with not only Malcolm’s siblings but people who knew Malcolm, who went to school with Malcolm. We spoke with his classmates. We spoke to people who were in jail with him at different — every phase of his life. And what we were learning is that there’s this side of Malcolm that we don’t know. And that goes beyond the speeches. That go beyond the autobiography. That up until our book, people weren’t really, you know, talking about that. Who is Malcolm, right, what was he like? Was it funny? You know, what kind of student was he? Was he (INAUDIBLE). But the other thing is, we wanted to talk about the world Malcolm was born into because this shapes him too, right? I mean, he’s not joining the Nation of Islam, talking about blue eyed devils, you know, because it’s fun. He’s doing this because this country is against black people succeeding, you know. And so, the Nation of Islam e provides an organization in which they can organize other black people in the towns they lived in lived and build up their community.

MARTIN: I think it’s important to — because I think may have read “The Autobiography of Malcolm X.” They may have seen Spike Lee’s movie, you know, “X.” But you’re providing sort of the bigger picture of like what is the world that made him as opposed to — just — you know, he didn’t arrive, you know, fully formed as this amazing order. How did he rise so quickly within the Nation of Islam?

PAYNE: Because it was an organization that was really about dealing with black people and then, how they move in society. And they spoke to the issues and problems of black people very directly, you know, and that’s where Malcolm really shines. Where he — where they already have the language, you know, that they use to describe, you know, white supremacy and their white oppressors. And Malcolm just carries that forward.

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MALCOLM X, AFRICAN-AMERICAN MUSLIM MINISTER: Who taught you to hate the texture of your hair? Who thought you to hate the color of your skin to such extent that you bleach to get like the white man? Who taught you to hate the shape of your nose and the shape your lips? Who taught you to hate yourself from the top of your head to the soles of your feet?

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PAYNE: There’s a chapter in this book in Harford where Malcolm is organizing his temple and he’s directly like — you see him like a leader, like with these people, listening to their stories and then, organizing them to, you know, understand the tenants of the Nation of Islam. You know, getting rid of the vices, you know, smoking, eating pork, all of that, alcohol, drinking, all of that. Gambling. And one of the things a lot of the men were saying, and the women actually, was that they said that they felt happy to be black for the first time because he was giving them something to do. It wasn’t just responding but to being, you know, proactive in who you are as a black people, and building your community, building your businesses. So, Martin Luther King and the civil rights movement, they’re deal with the super structure of white supremacy, changing the laws, you know, voting rights and the civil rights bill. What Malcolm and the Nation of Islam is really focusing is the mind of black people and responding to this white supremacist structure.

MARTIN: There a lot of revelations in your book. I mean, coming out so long ago and detailing the last days of his life. But one of the eye- popping revelations is the meeting they had with the Klan. We’re like, how did — like I — that just wasn’t on my radar at all. So, tell me about that as briefly as you can, because it’s just like, wait, what?

PAYNE: Yes. Well, the meeting with the Klan came about when Malcolm was visiting the Nation of Islam Mosque in Georgia, which was in Atlanta. And the minister there was Jeremiah Shabazz, well then known as Jeremiah X. And Malcom was speaking there. And while speaking there, they received a telegram from the local chapter of the Klan and said that they were interested in having a meeting with the Nation of Islam. They felt that there were similarities that they had. You know, the Klan was against integration and Martin Luther King was kicking their butt about — on that, changing the minds of a lot of people, and they didn’t like that. But they understood the Nation of Islam, they wanted separation, you know. And so, they said, well, maybe there’s something we can do, we can work together on? And Malcolm, you know, understanding getting this telegram and understanding, you know, what this can be, his view is that, you know, he wants to have a face-off. He wants a fight with them. Because Malcolm has this — he has good reason to not want anything to do with it. He believed that the Klan murdered his father. He understood the Klan had, you know, visited their doorstep when he was in Utero (ph). I mean, you know, he doesn’t — and he feels that any alliance also with the Klan is an unholy alliance. But —

MARTIN: I mean, it is a terrorist organization. So, it’s not like his concerns were unfounded. I mean, it’s a terrorist organization.

PAYNE: Well, yes, and also — but he’s not the leader of the organization, neither is Jeremiah. So, they have to go back to Elijah Muhammad. So, Elijah Muhammad, says, hey, I have this southern plan that I want to put out.I want to build more businesses. I want to have farms. I want to buy more land in the South. And the Klan is everywhere. They are the real estate, the bankers and the real estate brokers, they are the police, and we can’t — we’re going to have to figure something else. So, let’s meet with them. See what they can do and if they can help us and, you know, let’s hear them out, you know. Malcolm doesn’t want to do that. But he wants — he doesn’t want the nation to come out of this with the short end of the stick. So, he wants to be part of the meeting at least for that.

MARTIN: Did anything come of it?

PAYNE: Well, I mean, what Malcolm came out of this was with a bad taste in his mouth about having a meeting with the Klan. And what he realized is that, you know, Elijah Muhammad was willing to have a meeting with them, listen to them, and he — this is kind of where we start to see him separate from Elijah Muhammad philosophically.

MARTIN: Were you — so, you’ve alluded to that. I think many people who don’t know the story will, you know, wonder, you know, why did somebody from the Newark Mosque want him killed? Why is it that people from within the organization wanted him killed?

PAYNE: When Malcolm first even joined the organization, people were very jealous because he was very smart. He could speak to people educated, as well as in the streets. He can speak to both. And he wants more people who are educated because he thought that they’d have more ideas and the direction of organizing, you know, that would more — even more effective. And that’s kind of where he wanted to do it. People who are already members of the Nation of Islam, they didn’t have that kind (INAUDIBLE). They felt that this changed them and it bothered them. So, there are these jealousies that had started when even he came in. Any group. These people try to turn, you know, Elijah Muhammad against Malcolm saying, look at the — he was going to try and take over the organization from Elijah Muhammad. Look at the way he’s organizing. And Elijah Muhammad, he’s growing my numbers, my membership numbers incredibly. This is what I want, you know. So — but what happens is that these jealousies continue. But then, also, Malcolm starts to see — outgrow the organization anyway because, again, the differences that we talk about, for example, with the — after the clan meeting, and this grows. But understand, the seed has already been planted even when he started.

MARTIN: And then there was — I mean, and this is not a secret that he had learned that Elijah Muhammad had impregnated some of his young secretaries and then, kicked them out of the organization for being immoral. And when he confronted him about this, he was like, how does this square with the kind of conservative social values that you’ve been inculcating in us, and he sort of portrayed himself as a biblical figure. So, that’s certainly had to have been disturbing. And then, wasn’t it Malcolm’s own views around sort of the segregation versus integration, right, after his own visit to Mecca, like his own world view about of whether segregation was really the right course for black people. Is that —

PAYNE: As time is playing on, and keep in mind, that we have people fighting for the civil rights bill and people are being hunted down streets by, you know, national security guards and all that, and the civil rights movement. And Malcolm is seeing this and he also feels that it’s coming to a time, he starts to feel that we all pitch in to this fight, you know. But he’s outgrowing the nation. You know, difference of opinion. Yes. The babies that, you know, Elijah Muhammad fathered, yes, this was a problem but it was not the only or even the major issue, but it was an issue. Because once Malcolm starts speaking about that, he’s breaking a lot of the rules, right? And now, he’s become — you know, he’s going, I guess — you know, he’s going out to the leader right now, at that point. So, he becomes a huge threat, you know. And so — but Malcolm has to split. He understands. So, he can’t really be by himself to do the work that he wants to do, which is, you know, to continue this fight for the lives of black people. He needs an organization, but he needs an organization that’s going to grow with his philosophy, right? So, he comes up with the idea of two organizations. He does — he takes after his (INAUDIBLE) after he splits from the Nation of Islam. But towards the end of that, his tenure in the nation, he has met with and befriended people that were Sunni. And so, he’s studying with them and he’s reading their literature because he wants to, you know, really kind of further understand what, you know, this religion is, the Islamic religion is, as opposed to what they’re teaching in the Nation of Islam. It was not, you know, Orthodox Islam. So, he’s going in that direction in a religious sense. But also, in the mind sense, he’s — you know, he’s outgrown the nation altogether. He’s seen as a traitor. He’s not following the rules.

MARTIN: What effect do you think his head had on sort of social justice movements, not just in the United States but worldwide? I mean, important to remember, in 1965, this kind of ushered in a season of violence. I mean, you know, Martin Luther King was killed later on and Robert F. Kennedy was killed, you know, subsequently. And it just seems like this sort of inaugurated this — it seen, it hindsight that this kind of augurated the season of attack on these kinds of leaders. What — how do you see that?

PAYNE: I think that we have to also look at what’s happening in the world. You know, in 1963 and ’64, what you’re also seeing are countries — African countries, you know, who are over — you know, getting away from their colonizers, right? Like Ghana, like Nigeria, like Kenya. And he’s meeting with these leaders, these new — the leaders who are taking over these countries. But his philosophy has always been about connecting up with Africa. Keep in mind, his mother was raised by Nigerians and she talked about Africa all the time. So, he was very much aware that we are African, we of African descent, that — and that, we — and there’s a whole continent. And then, when he’s studying, he’s like all these minerals come out of Africa and we should have a relationship to this.

MARTIN: But what impact do you think his death had on these movements?

PAYNE: It was an immediate cut-in to building up a bet — the relationship between African-Americans and Africans on the continent. I mean, I think that — I mean, now, does that mean that we don’t have a relationship? No. I mean, people still travel. We still have relationships. But he was really connecting it in a way that could have cut out a lot of the stuff that we have experienced since then.

MARTIN: Why do you think he remains such a towering culture figure?

PAYNE: I think it’s really hard to get around Malcolm. It’s just is. I mean, people tried. But he keeps coming up. He’s coming up in our music. Imagine what Malcolm would be — had been like if he had the internet, right? But he had the television, when the television came out. And he mastered that and he used it to his ability like nobody else. And you can’t really get around that. Because you look at those speeches now, you go — I mean, you can listen to them but to watch him speak is amazing. Even today. And it’s so important to see that. He knew how to use that to his advantage. The other thing — and let’s not forget, the newspaper that still exists in the Nation of Islam, he started that. He started the newspaper, because he believed that they have to have control of their communication. And the information they put out to their community and not rely on other – – you know, the media, because the media, in a way, was distorting who they were.

MARTIN: Tamara Payne, thank you so much for talking with us today.

PAYNE: Thank you for having me.