They Were the Poster Child for the KKK; Now They Advocate for Antiracism

>>> WELL, NOW A GROUP PARTICULARLY IN FAVOR OF HOSTILITY TOWARDS IMMIGRANTS IS THE FAR-RIGHT WHITE NATIONALISTS, WHICH OUR NEXT GUEST GREW UP BEING A PART OF AND HAS SINCE RENOUNCED.

IN A NEW MEMOIR, "THE KLANSMAN'S SON," R. DEREK BLACK WRITES ABOUT THEIR UPBRINGING FROM A PROMINENT WHITE SUPREMACIST FROM CHILDHOOD TO AN OUTSPOKEN ANTI-RACIST CRITIC.

THEY JOIN MICHEL MARTIN.

THIS INTERVIEW, WE SHOULD NOTE, IS PART OF EXPLORING HATE, OUR ONGOING SERIES ON ANTI-SEMITISM, RACISM, AND EXTREMISM.

>> DEREK BLACK, THANKS SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> IF PEOPLE DON'T KNOW YOUR STORY COMPLETELY, THEY PROBABLY HAVE HEARD ABOUT YOU.

YOU GREW UP IN A WHITE NATIONALIST FAMILY.

DAVID DUKE MAY BE THE MOST FAMOUS WHITE NATIONALIST IN AMERICA, WAS YOUR DAD'S BEST FRIEND.

YOU CALLED HIM UNCLE.

YOU'VE BEEN WRITTEN ABOUT QUITE EXTENSIVELY, SOME VERY MOVING AND IN-DEPTH REPORTING HAS BEEN SORT OF DONE ABOUT UR YOUR JOURNEY.

BUT THIS BOOK IS YOU WRITING ABOUT YOUR LIFE IN YOUR OWN WORDS.

WHY DID YOU THINK THAT WAS IMPORTANT TO DO?

>> YEAH.

I WAS REALLY GLAD THAT I EVENTUALLY GOT TO A PLACE IN THE LAST COUPLE YEARS WHERE I FELT LIKE I HAD ENOUGH DISTANCE FROM MY UPBRINGING TO EVEN CONTEXTUALIZE IT.

AFTER BIDEN'S ELECTORAL VICTORY, I WAS FEELING LIKE THIS MOMENT OF FOCUS ON THE FAR RIGHT AND FOCUS ON THE POWER OF THIS MOVEMENT WAS GETTING A LITTLE BIT TOO LITTLE ATTENTION ACTUALLY BECAUSE HISTORICALLY IN THOSE MOMENTS, PARTICULARLY WHEN THERE'S AN ADMINISTRATION CHANGE, THAT'S WHEN THIS MOVEMENT TENDS TO SURGE.

I WAS VERY CONCERNED THAT PEOPLE WEREN'T FOCUSING ON THAT.

AND THEN JANUARY 6th WAS SOMETHING THAT REALLY CRYSTALLIZED THAT, AND IT'S BEEN SINCE THEN THAT I'VE BEEN TRYING TO THINK ABOUT THE SOCIAL CONTEXT, THE HISTORY THAT MY FAMILY CAME FROM, AND REALLY DESCRIBE WHERE I THINK THIS IS GOING.

>> YOU'RE A TRAINED HISTORIAN, SO YOU HAVE ACCESS BOTH TO KIND OF THE TOOLS, YOU KNOW, OF THE ACADEMY AS WELL AS YOUR OWN PERSONAL STORY.

AND ONE OF THE THINGS THIS BOOK DOES IS BOTH.

I MEAN YOU TALK ABOUT KIND OF THE HISTORY OF THE WHITE NATIONALIST MOVEMENT, YOU KNOW, IN THE UNITED STATES, AND YOU INTERWEAVE THAT WITH YOUR OWN PERSONAL STORY.

YOU KNOW, I WAS TRYING TO THINK OF AN ANALOGY TO YOUR EXPERIENCE, AND I COULDN'T DECIDE.

WAS IT THAT YOU WERE LIKE A CHILD ACTOR, OR WERE YOU LIKE A CHILD SOLDIER?

>> I MEAN, I THINK I -- IT WAS ONLY REALLY IN WRITING THE BOOK THAT I STARTED THINKING ABOUT JUST HOW -- I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE RIGHT WORD IS -- LIKE HOW CLAUSTROPHOBIC BEING RAISED THE WAY I WAS FELT.

LIKE I START THE BOOK WITH THE SCENE WHEN I WAS 10 AND DOING MY FIRST INTERVIEW, AND I REMEMBERED THAT.

IT WAS PART OF MY STORY OF MY LIFE, SOMETHING THAT WAS VERY VISCERAL.

>> ACTUALLY, WHY DON'T WE START THERE.

WHY DON'T YOU TELL THIS STORY BECAUSE THAT IS HOW YOU START THE BOOK.

YOU GAVE YOUR FIRST TELEVISION INTERVIEW ON ONE OF THOSE NATIONALLY SYNDICATED TALK SHOWS THAT WERE SUPER POPULAR AT A CERTAIN POINT.

>> I WAS WITH MY DAD, AND I HAD GROWN UP IN FLORIDA.

AND THE SHOW FLEW US TO CHICAGO TO BE ON THE JIMMY JONES SHOW.

IT WAS SORT OF LIKE JENNY SPRINGER.

IT HAD A YELLING, BRAWLING AUDIENCE.

BUT HE NEGOTIATED THAT I WOULD BE ABLE TO BE OFFSTAGE AND NOT HAVE TO GO OUT IN FRONT OF THESE PEOPLE WHO WERE YELLING AT HIM ALONG WITH ALL OF THESE OTHER PEOPLE WHO WERE BROUGHT TOGETHER AS HATEFUL SITES ON THE INTERNET.

NAZI GROUPS WERE THERE, AND MY DAD WAS THERE, AND I WAS THERE.

I LOOKED BACK ON THAT, AND I REMEMBERED IT AS THE MOMENT THAT I SORT OF BEGAN A PATH WHERE I FELT LIKE I'M A SPOKESMAN FOR THIS CAUSE AND SLOWLY ABLE TO REPRESENT MYSELF MORE AND, LIKE, TAKE CONTROL OF THAT NARRATIVE.

MY DAD ASKED ME OVER AND OVER AGAIN, YOU KNOW, ARE YOU SURE YOU WANT TO DO THIS?

YOU CAN BACK OUT.

YOU CAN EVEN QUIT EVEN UP TILL THE DAY OF THE SHOW.

AND THAT FEELING OF HIM TRUSTING ME WAS SOMETHING THAT I REMEMBER FEELING SO CARED FOR AND REALLY WANTING TO GIVE BACK.

AND IT ALSO TAUGHT ME ALL THESE LESSONS ABOUT JUST HOW THE WORLD SEES US.

I WAS REALLY SURPRISED AT THE END OF THE INTERVIEW, LISTENING TO MYSELF EXPLAIN TO JENNY JONES THAT THE REASON ALL THESE PEOPLE WERE SO ANGRY AT US, THE REASON THAT THEY WERE JEERING AND SENDING ME HATEFUL EMAILS IS BECAUSE THEY DID NOT UNDERSTAND US.

AND JUST THROUGHOUT ALL OF MY ADOLESCENCE, THAT FEELING OF, LIKE, MY FAMILY BELIEVES SOMETHING THAT THEY BELIEVE IS TRUE AND MORAL, AND THE REST OF THE WORLD JUST DESPISES THEM FOR IT, AND SO WE ALL HAVE TO HAVE EACH OTHER'S BACKS.

LIKE THAT WAS AGE 13, 14, 16, 17, ALL THE WAY TILL COLLEGE.

>> WHAT WOULD YOU SAY SORT OF DEFINES WHITE NATIONALISM, AND WHY DO YOU THINK IT PERSISTS IN THIS COUNTRY TO THE DEGREE THAT IT DOES?

THIS.

>> YEAH.

I TRY IN THE BOOK TO MAKE SURE TO CALL IT WHITE NATIONALISM OR THE WHITE POWER MOVEMENT BECAUSE IT'S THIS SOCIAL MOVEMENT WHERE THE PEOPLE KNOW EACH OTHER.

THEY BELIEVE THAT THEY'RE A PART OF THIS.

IT'S A BIG PART OF THEIR IDENTITY.

AND THAT'S SOMETHING THAT'S SEPARATE FROM JUST LIKE RACISM OR WHITE SUPREMACY OR BEING XENOPHOBIC OR ANTI-SEMITIC OR ANY OF THE THINGS THEY BELIEVE BECAUSE THEY SEE THEMSELVES AS A PART OF THIS MOVEMENT THAT HAS 60 YEARS OF HISTORY AND GOALS, LIKE POLITICAL AND VIOLENT GOALS.

AND THEN WHAT THEY BELIEVE IS SOMETHING THAT THEY'VE TAKEN FROM ALL THESE DIFFERENT ASPECTS OF WHITE SUPREMACY IN OUR CULTURE AND IN OUR HISTORY.

THEY BELIEVE THAT RACE IS BIOLOGICAL, AND IT PREDICTS ALL THIS STUFF ABOUT PEOPLE, WHICH JUST SO -- SO THOUSAND TIMES OVER DISPROVEN THAT IT'S THIS SPECIAL CONTEXT, AND YET THEY CAN BE QUITE EDUCATED AND CONVINCE THEMSELVES OF THIS.

AND THEY ALSO BELIEVE IN AN ANTI-SEMITIC CONSPIRACY THEORY, THAT ALL ANTI-RACIST MOVEMENTS ARE REALLY BEING RUN BY JEWISH PEOPLE.

BOTH OF THOSE REQUIRE THAT YOU SEE THE WORLD IN A QUITE STRANGE WAY.

I THINK THERE'S ALSO A LESSON THAT I'VE LEARNED THERE, WHICH IS AS LONG AS SOMETHING IS SERVING YOUR COMMUNITY, PEOPLE CAN CONVINCE THEMSELVES OF JUST ABOUT ANYTHING.

I THINK THERE'S SOMETIMES THIS SENSE THAT PEOPLE HAVE TO BE IGNORANT OR UNEDUCATED OR DESPERATE TO BE RACIST OR, YOU KNOW, BIGOTED IN WHATEVER WAY, AND THAT WAS NEVER MY EXPERIENCE.

PEOPLE HAVE DEGREES.

THEY HAVE WHITE COLLAR JOBS, AND YET THEY SEE THE WORLD IN A WAY THAT EXPLAINS AND JUSTIFIES THEIR EXISTENCE.

IT'S NOT THE CASE THAT PEOPLE JUST HAVE TO BE STUPID, AND THEREFORE WE CAN LIKE ARGUE THEM OUT OF IT.

IT IS ABOUT THEIR OWN SENSE OF THEMSELVES AND THEIR COMMITMENT TO OTHER PEOPLE THAT KEEPS THEM IN SOMETHING, AND I THINK THAT IS ALSO THE WAY THAT YOU CHANGE SOMEBODY'S MIND.

IT'S NOT BY -- IT'S NOT JUST BY GIVING THEM FACTS.

I THINK IT OFTEN SOUNDS LIKE FACTS, BUT IT'S ABOUT GETTING THEM TO BE OPEN TO PEOPLE THAT THEY'VE NEVER CONSIDERED THEMSELVES RESPONSIBLE FOR, THEY'VE NEVER CONSIDERED AS SOMEONE LOVES.

>> YOU'VE MENTIONED ONE OF THE REASONS FOR THIS BOOK IS JANUARY 6th.

I THINK THAT WAS ONE OF THE SURPRISES WHEN YOU REALIZED WHO WERE THE PEOPLE WHO ATTACKED THE CAPITOL.

I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE WOULD LIKE TO BELIEVE IT WAS SOME SORT OF PEOPLE LIVING OFF IN A SHACK SOMEPLACE.

THAT'S NOT THE CASE.

SO HOW DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT?

>> RIGHT.

I MEAN, WE COULD TELL IN THE DAYS AFTER, AND WE KNOW MUCH MORE CERTAINLY NOW THAT MEMBERS OF THIS ORGANIZED MOVEMENT WERE REALLY KEY ON JANUARY 6th TO SORT OF DRIVING THE CROWD, PUSHING THEM FURTHER.

I THINK THERE'S A REAL LESSON THERE IN JUST HOW A MOVEMENT LIKE THIS OPERATES.

IT'S NOT THAT THEY HAVE MILLIONS OF MEMBERS.

IT'S NOT THAT THEY'RE, THOUGH, MILITIAS OR SOMETHING.

IT'S THAT THEY BELIEVE THINGS THAT EXIST IN OUR SOCIETY.

THEY LEAN INTO IDEAS THAT ARE NOT, LIKE, FROM ANOTHER PLANET.

THEN THEY AMPLIFY THEM.

THEY DRIVE PEOPLE WHO SHOW UP WANTING TO FEEL A LITTLE BIT MORE JUSTIFIED, WHO WANT TO NOT BE CALLED RACIST OR SOME NAME, AND THEY GIVE THEM A SPACE WHERE THEY TELL THEM THEY DON'T HAVE TO CHANGE.

THEY DON'T HAVE TO RETHINK ANYTHING.

THEY DON'T HAVE TO EVEN RESPOND TO THOSE WORDS.

AND THAT'S ALSO A POINT I WAS TRYING TO MAKE IN THE BOOK, THAT SOME OF THE WORST THINGS THAT THE MEDIA HAS DONE IN COVERING THE FAR-RIGHT MOVEMENT IS IN ACTING LIKE SOMEBODY BEING A PART OF THIS MOVEMENT, WHO HAS A BACHELOR'S DEGREE OR WHO SEEMS KIND OF NICE OR WHO WATCHES MOVIES OR GOES TO CHAIN RESTAURANTS, LIKE THAT'S STRANGE AND NOTABLE AND, OH, THIS PERSON IS HATEFUL AND ALSO SEEMS KIND OF NORMAL.

THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT THIS MOVEMENT WANTS.

THAT'S EXACTLY HOW THEY WANT TO BE COVERED BECAUSE FOR THE MOST PART, THEY ARE NORMAL BECAUSE RACISM AND ANTI-SEMITISM ARE NORMAL IN AMERICA.

>> THE OTHER THING YOU WRITE ABOUT, I THINK VERY PERSUASIVELY AND MOVINGLY IS THE ROLE OF RELATIONSHIPS IN A MOST LIKE THIS.

IT JUST BECOMES HARD TO LEAVE.

YOU LOVE THEM, AND THEY LOVE YOU.

AND YOU WROTE, FOR EXAMPLE, THE WHITE NATIONALIST MOVEMENT THAT I GREW UP IN IS CONSTITUTED BY RELATIONSHIPS, BOTH BETWEEN CURRENT ACTIVISTS AS WELL AS THEIR EQUALLY STRONG FEELING OF INHERITANCE AND RESPONSIBILITY TO THOSE WHO CAME BEFORE THEM.

IT'S IMPOSSIBLE FOR ME TO TRULY SEPARATE AN OBJECTIVE SENSE OF THIS DESTRUCTIVE IDEOLOGY FROM THE FACT I UNDERSTAND THEIR SELF-IDENTITY, LOVE SO MANY OF THEM, AND CAN NEVER REALLY SEPARATE MYSELF FROM THEIR STORY.

THAT'S A PRETTY POWERFUL INSIGHT.

WHAT WAS IT ABOUT THE COLLEGE EXPERIENCE THAT CHANGED YOUR LIFE?

>> WHEN I CONDEMNED WHITE NATIONALISM, I IMMEDIATELY HAD TO LOOK AT MYSELF AND RECOGNIZE THAT I HAD CLEARLY GROWN UP IN A FAMILY, IN A MOVEMENT THAT WAS SO COMMITTED TO EACH OTHER AND CARED ABOUT EACH OTHER SO MUCH, AND IN A FAMILY IN PARTICULAR THAT PRIDED THEMSELVES ON BEING THE CENTRAL LEADERSHIP OF THIS MOVEMENT.

AND ON ONE LEVEL, THAT JUST MADE SENSE.

OF COURSE, IF YOU GROW UP IN A LIFE LIKE THAT, THEN YOU'LL LEAN INTO THESE BELIEFS, AND YOU'LL JUSTIFY THEM.

BUT I HAD TOLD MYSELF ALL ALONG THAT IF THE WORLD THOUGHT WE WERE WRONG, I WANTED TO JUSTIFY IT.

I WANTED TO SEEK OUT ALL THE SUPPOSED FACTS.

MY FAMILY HAD ACTED THE SAME WAY.

BUT THEN WHEN I GOT TO THE END OF THAT, PEOPLE IN COLLEGE HAD WALKED ME THROUGH ALL THE STUPID STATISTICS AND THE WAYS THAT WHITE NATIONALISTS SORT OF ABUSE SCIENCE AND HAVE ALL THIS, LIKE, STUFF THAT DOESN'T HOLD UP.

SO AT THE END, I DIDN'T HAVE FACTS TO SUPPORT THIS BELIEF.

I DIDN'T HAVE A RATIONAL ARGUMENT FOR IT.

I HAD TO ACCEPT I HAD GOTTEN CLOSE TO A COMMUNITY THAT MADE ME RECOGNIZE I DIDN'T WANT TO BE A PERSON WHO HURT THEM.

AS LONG AS I WAS ADVOCATING THIS IDEOLOGY, I WAS HURTING THEM.

TO GET TO THAT POINT AND STILL RECOGNIZE THAT I DID NOT WANT TO CONDEMN MY FAMILY MADE ME FACE THE FACT THAT MY BELIEFS HAD BEEN SO BASED IN IDENTITY, IN CARE AND LOVE, AND WANTING TO BE A PART OF THE GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO HAD RAISED ME -- LIKE, EVERY RELATIONSHIP I HAD HAD UP UNTIL I WAS 21 YEARS OLD -- AND THAT FEELING WAS JUST SO DISCONCERTING.

>> ONE OF THE WEIRD IRONIES IS THAT YOU ATTENDED NEW COLLEGE IN SARASOTA, FLORIDA.

ONE OF THE REALLY INTERESTING THINGS ABOUT THE CURRENT MOMENT IS THAT THE CURRENT GOVERNOR OF FLORIDA SEEMS REALLY DEDICATED TO CHANGING THE LEADERSHIP OF THAT SCHOOL.

I MEAN NOT JUST THAT SCHOOL, BUT AS YOU WILL NOTICED, THE CONSERVATIVE MOVEMENT, PARTICULARLY IN SOME PARTS OF THE COUNTRY, HAS BECOME VERY AGGRESSIVE ABOUT POLICING THE BOOKS THAT KIDS READ, THE WAY CERTAIN ISSUES ARE TAUGHT, PARTICULARLY RACE, NOT ONLY RACE, CHANGING THE LEADERSHIP OF CERTAIN INSTITUTIONS, ELIMINATING DIVERSITY, EQUITY, AND INCLUSION OFFICES AT STATE SCHOOLS.

FLORIDA IS KIND OF GROUND ZERO FOR THAT.

I MEAN THE CURRENT GOVERNOR SAYS, YOU KNOW, FLORIDA IS THE PLACE WHERE WOKE GOES TO DIE.

I'M PARTICULARLY WONDERING WHY YOU THINK NEW COLLEGE SHOULD BECOME SUCH A FOCUS OF HIS ATTENTION, THE MOVEMENT'S ATTENTION, AND HIS ATTENTION IN PARTICULAR.

>> WHAT I'VE HEARD IS THAT IT WAS RAW CONVENIENCE THAT THE GOVERNOR WANTS TO TEST AND WANTED TO TEST JUST HOW MUCH DIRECT CONTROL OVER THE UNIVERSITY SYSTEM THAT HIS ADMINISTRATION COULD WIELD, AND NEW COLLEGE BEING THE SMALLEST UNIVERSITY IN THE STATE UNIVERSITY SYSTEM, WITH LIKE FEWER THAN 800 PEOPLE, WAS A GOOD TEST CASE.

THAT THEY COULD JUST TRY TO SEE HOW MUCH USING A SUPERMAJORITY IN THE STATE GOVERNMENT AND CONTROLLING THE BOARD OF TRUSTEES COULD OVERWHELM A UNIVERSITY.

AND THEY'VE PRACTICED THAT AT OTHER UNIVERSITIES AS WELL.

IT'S BEEN TRAUMATIC, THOUGH.

THE CULTURAL SILENCING THAT'S HAPPENED THERE, STUDENTS -- I KNOW STUDENTS WHO ARE THERE NOW, AND THEY ARE -- THEY FEEL POLICED AND INTIMIDATED ALMOST ALL THE TIME JUST FOR THEIR IDENTITIES.

THE OTHER THING I DO WANT TO MENTION IS I THINK THERE'S AN EMPHASIS THAT I REALLY LEARNED AT NEW COLLEGE THAT IS NOT JUST ABOUT THE WAY THAT HISTORY TEACHES AROUND RACISM AND ANTI-SEMITISM, BUT I THINK ALSO THE WAY THE ADMINISTRATION IS FOCUSING ON QUEER STUDENTS, PARTICULARLY TRANS STUDENTS, IS SOMETHING THAT'S NOT THE SAME ISSUE, BUT IT'S REMARKABLE THE WAY THAT THEY'RE DEMONSTRATING HOW CONNECTED THEY FEEL LIKE THOSE MOVEMENTS ARE.

THAT AT THE SAME TIME THIS ADMINISTRATION IS BANNING THE TEACHING OF THE HISTORY OF SLAVERY, THE HISTORY OF RACISM AND WHITE SUPREMACY, TEACHING PEOPLE THAT YOU CAN'T SAY ANYTHING THAT MAKES YOU FEEL NOT PROUD ABOUT HISTORY, AT THE SAME TIME, THEY ARE ALSO BANNING TEACHERS AND STUDENTS FROM TALKING ABOUT GENDER, FROM TALKING ABOUT SEXUALITY, THAT NEW COLLEGE WAS A PLACE THAT HAD A LARGE TRANS POPULATION WHEN I WAS THERE AND STILL DOES.

IT WAS A PLACE THAT REALLY MADE AN INCLUSIVE ENVIRONMENT IN A SOCIETY THAT BROADLY IS NOT.

AND THE DeSANTIS ADMINISTRATION HAS DIRECTLY ATTACKED TRANS STUDENTS.

THEY HAVE IMPOSED RULES POLICING USAGE OF BATHROOMS, MAKING STUDENT CONDUCT BE SOMETHING THAT GOING INTO THE BATHROOM THAT DOES NOT ALIGN WITH THE BIRTH CERTIFICATE IS A CRIMINAL OFFENSE FOR SOME PEOPLE.

AND THEN A STUDENT CONDUCT VIOLATION WHERE PROFESSORS ARE MEANT TO SORT OF MONITOR STUDENTS IN THEIR PRESENTATIONS AND THEIR LIVES.

>> IF YOU DON'T MIND, I DID NOTICE THAT YOUR OWN PRONOUNS HAVE CHANGED.

TELL ME A LITTLE BIT MORE ABOUT THAT.

>> YEAH.

I DO DESCRIBE MYSELF AS TRANS, AND IT'S BEEN SOMETHING THAT'S BEEN SOMETHING I'M FIGURING OUT.

IT WASN'T ONE I'M WILLING TO DESCRIBE EXTENSIVELY IN THE BOOK.

THOUGHTS ABOUT GENDER THAT I'VE EXPERIENCED IN MY LIFE, BUT IT WAS REALLY AT NEW COLLEGE THAT I FOUND THE COMMUNITY OF PEOPLE WHO WE'VE BEEN DESCRIBED A WAY TO LIVE AUTHENTICALLY.

IT WASN'T UNTIL YEARS AFTER NEW COLLEGE THAT I DECIDED AND REALIZED I REALLY DON'T WANT TO, YOU KNOW, KEEP TRYING TO BE SOMETHING OR SOMEONE ELSE.

I THINK I EVENTUALLY REALIZED THERE'S NOBODY TO TRY TO BE SOMETHING FOR.

SO I'VE BEEN EXPANDING, EXPLORING MY GENDER IDENTITY, AND I USE THEY AND SHE.

IT'S BEEN SOMETHING I'VE FELT A LOT MORE COMFORTABLE COMING OUT ABOUT AS THIS BOOK WAS COMING OUT.

>> BEFORE WE LET YOU GO, DO YOU SEE A WAY FORWARD FOR THE REST OF US WHO ARE GRAPPLING WITH THESE THINGS, SORT OF THE DIVISIONS IN OUR SOCIETY, THE WAY THAT WE SEEM SO DEEPLY POLARIZED AROUND THINGS THAT SOME PEOPLE THOUGHT WERE SETTLED ISSUES?

>> I HAVE A LOT OF FAITH -- I MEAN NOT EVEN FAITH.

I JUST KNOW FOR A FACT THAT PEOPLE CAN AND DO ALWAYS CHANGE.

LIKE THAT IS JUST INEVITABLE EXPERIENCE OF HUMANITY.

WE ARE ALWAYS CHANGING, AND THERE IS NOTHING THAT IS TOO FAR GONE AND CAN NEVER GO AWAY OR NEVER CHANGE.

LIKE WE CAN RETHINK THE MOST FUNDAMENTAL PARTS OF OURSELVES.

BUT IT REQUIRES ENGAGEMENT AND COMMUNITY CONNECTION.

IT REQUIRES BEING A PART OF THE WORLD AND BEING OPEN TO OTHER PEOPLE.

WE CAN'T MAKE THAT HAPPEN FOR ANYONE.

WE CAN'T COERCE SOMEBODY INTO BEING OPEN TO OTHER PEOPLE THAT THEY DON'T WANT TO BE.

THAT'S A CHOICE THAT THEY HAVE TO MAKE, AND WE CAN MAKE OPPORTUNITIES FOR THAT.

I THINK WE ALL SORT OF HAVE DECISIONS TO MAKE ABOUT HOW DO WE WANT TO EXIST IN THE WORLD, HOW DO WE WANT TO SPEAK UP.

SOMETHING I LEARNED FROM MY UNIVERSITY EXPERIENCE WAS THAT EVERYBODY SAID AND DID SOMETHING.

SOME PEOPLE INVITED ME TO COME TO A WEEKLY CHABOT DINNERS AND REALLY ENGAGE WITH MY BELIEF SYSTEM.

BUT A LOT OF OTHER PEOPLE JUST SPOKE OUT AND SAID, THIS IS A COMMUNITY WHERE WE DON'T WANT STUDENTS OF COLOR AND JEWISH STUDENTS TO FEEL AFRAID.

AND THAT WAS AN ACTION THAT WAS SUPER IMPORTANT TO ME.

IT WAS SOMETHING THAT I FELT OSTRACIZED AT THE MOMENT, BUT IT WAS SOMETHING THAT MADE ME FEEL LIKE I NEEDED TO RESPOND.

LIKE IF I DIDN'T WANT STUDENTS TO FEEL UNSAFE IN THE COMMUNITY EITHER, THEN I NEEDED TO ANSWER FOR WHAT WAS I DOING TO TRY TO MAKE THAT BE TRUE.

AND THE LESSON, I THINK, FROM THAT IS THAT EVERYBODY NEEDS TO DO SOMETHING TO SPEAK UP FOR THE WORLD THAT THEY WANT TO SEE AND THAT YOU NEVER QUITE KNOW THE EFFECT THAT THAT'S GOING TO HAVE AND WHO IT'S GOING TO PUSH AND WHO IT'S GOING TO NUDGE.

IT'S NOT ALWAYS SOMETHING WHERE YOU HAVE AN ACTION, THEN YOU IMMEDIATELY SEE THE RESULT.

BUT IT'S STILL SOMETHING WE NEED TO BE PERSISTENTLY TRYING TO DO.

>> DEREK BLACK, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US ONCE AGAIN.

>> THANKS SO MUCH, MICHEL.

IT WAS REALLY GOOD TO BE HERE.