Trump Insider on the Increased Racial Tensions in America

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR: So, new debate on overhauling policing and other institutions in America. Amid all that Mike Johnson, a Republican congressman from Louisiana, is joining the chorus, while also remaining a firm supporter of President Trump. Here he is now talking to our Walter Isaacson about racial tensions in the United States and his own personal story of adopting an African-American boy 20 years ago.

WALTER ISAACSON: Thank you, Christiane. And, Congressman Mike Johnson, thank you for joining us.

REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): It’s a delight to be with you. Thanks for having me.

ISAACSON: What did you feel when you watched the video of George Floyd being killed?

M. JOHNSON: I was outraged. I don’t think anyone can view the video and objectively come to any other conclusion but that it was an act of murder. And I felt that initially, as everyone did. And it’s so disturbing. And the underlying issues beneath that are something that the country is now struggling with, and I think it’s something we have to look at very soberly and with a lot of empathy. And I’m glad to see that’s happening around the country.

ISAACSON: You live up in Bossier City, near Shreveport. And you and your wife a long time ago adopted a 14-year-old African-American young man and raised him, along with your other children. Tell me about how that gave you some perspective on this.

M. JOHNSON: Yes, sure. We took Michael in almost 20 years ago. He was 14. I often — the easiest way to summarize the story is, I ask friends, have you seen the story “The Blind Side”? That was our story, except my Michael was not an NFL prospect, a similar story to that. And we took him in as our own. And Michael is now doing great. This is 20 years later. He’s in his mid-30s. He lives in California, four children of his own. He and Adonza (ph), they have a great family life. And he says to people, he shares his testimony that, were it not for our intervention in his life, that he would certainly have joined a gang, gotten on drugs, wound up in prison, or dead on the street somewhere. And that’s the harsh reality that we have here. What it’s taught me is, we now have four other children of our own. And my oldest son, Jack, ironically, this year is 14. And I have thought often through all these ordeals over the last couple of weeks about the difference in experiences between my two 14-year-old sons, Michael, being a black American, and Jack being white, Caucasian. They have different challenges. My son Jack has an easier path. He just does. The interesting thing about both these kids, Michael and Jack, is they’re both handsome, articulate, really talented kids gifted by God to do lots of things. But the reality is — and no one can tell me otherwise — my son Michael had a harder time than my son Jack is going to have simply because of the color of his skin. And that’s a reality. It’s an uncomfortable, painful one to acknowledge, but people have to recognize that’s a fact.

ISAACSON: What do we do about that?

M. JOHNSON: I think that we need — we really do need systematic change. I think we need to transformative solutions. I think we’re at a moment where we can begin to do more to form that more perfect union, as it says in the first line of the Constitution. Martin Luther King Jr., Dr. King said, the Declaration of Independence was a promissory note to future generations of Americans. We have not achieved yet what we can and should do. But I think this is a moment for us first to do it. I think and I hope that we can push the politics aside of it, all of the ulterior motives and agendas that so many organizations and groups have, and just look at this honestly. If we could begin to see one another as our creator sees us, that’s — the central theme of America is articulated, of course, in the second paragraph of the Declaration, we hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal, and they’re endowed by God with their rights. God sees us equally. We’re made in his image. As a Christian, I believe that. And if that’s true, there are implications that come from that. As Americans, that being our foundational creed, we have to understand that every single person has an inestimable dignity and value. And your value is not related in any way to the color of your skin or what zip code you live in or what you can contribute to society. Your value is inherent, because it’s given to you by your creator. That is the theme. That’s the idea, the premise of America. And we have to live up to that.

ISAACSON: You just mentioned systemic change. Explain what type of changes you think are necessary.

M. JOHNSON: There’s a controversy raging right now in the country about whether there is a systemic problem within American policing. And that’s a whole different debate. But when I’m talking about systematic change, I mean from a cultural perspective. I have grown up and lived in the Deep South all my life, and it’s — we’re still very segregated. We are. It’s just a reality. Sunday mornings, I was in a pulpit two Sundays ago speaking to this issue. And I said as, as they said in the civil rights era, it’s still true. This is still — Sunday morning is the most segregated hour in America, and how tragic that is. And so a lot of leaders in my community are talking, we’re having dialogue right now of pastoral leaders, clergy, about trying to bring clergy together as a start, get white pastors and black pastors together around the same table to break bread and talk about how we can further integrate our community and cross those socioeconomic, racial lines. I think there’s a lot more of that that’s needed. So, when I speak about systematic change, I mean from a cultural perspective first, because it’s a heart condition before it’s a policy condition.

ISAACSON: And what about this change that may be needed for policing, more specific things, police reform? There’s bills being proposed to ban certain things like choke holds or to do — what would you and the Republican Study Committee want to do to try to change how policing is done?

M. JOHNSON: Well, we have talked about — I serve on the House Judiciary Committee, and we have a big hearing coming up this week on that very issue, of course. And we summarize it when we’re back home in a town hall setting or talking to community groups. It’s about the three T’s to us. It’s about transparency, training and termination, right? So, transparency within policing to give reports if there’s bad apples on a police force, and they’re very rare, that people need to know that. That needs to be a part of what is released to the public when it’s necessary. And then training, you have to talk about in the police academies. I grew up in the fire and police academy in Shreveport, Louisiana. My dad was an assistant chief of the fire department. And I watched those trainings. Things have changed over the last few decades. And we need to update that. We need body cameras and the like. And then termination. If you identify officers who have suffered from PTSD or have a violent inclination or violate policies and rules, that needs to be dealt with appropriately, so that we can prevent the kinds of atrocities like we saw with George Floyd and so many others. So, there are things that can be done. And I believe that the leaders in law enforcement would agree that some of those reforms are necessary. And we need to bring in the experts and have a thoughtful dialogue about the best ways to approach and improve these conditions.

ISAACSON: You talk on the telephone a lot to President Trump. Have you talked to him about this issue and about the tone that he’s setting?

M. JOHNSON: I haven’t spoke to the president about this since the George Floyd event. I’m on the Reopen American Task Force. And we have had some committee hearings, but I haven’t had a direct dialogue with him since all this happened. What I do know — and I’m often asked when I’m at home in the district about President Trump and his personal inclinations, and I have spent a lot of time with him, in relative terms, as others. And what I have seen from the president — and I truly believe this — that he sees everyone equally. He loves everyone as Americans. And he does his best to act in accordance with that. It’s a very challenging time to be the president of the United States. I mean, the series of challenges that are on his shoulders right now, it doesn’t matter who the president is right now. They would be under tremendous criticism and assault from all sides. And so there’s a biblical admonition. As a Christian, I believe we’re called to pray for those in authority and to pray for the president, whoever the president is. Right now, I really believe he needs our prayers because he needs wisdom and discernment to walk through these very choppy, uncharted waters that we’re in as a nation.

ISAACSON: But some of his tweets calling people thugs, some of the rhetoric he’s used doesn’t seem like it’s intended necessarily to unite the country. Would you counsel him, if you could, would you want to counsel him that, at least on the tweets and in the impromptu statements, he be more unifying, not use such language?

M. JOHNSON: Yes, the thing about President Trump is, he wakes up every morning and he’s under constant assault. And it’s partly a function of where the culture is, and with the advent of social media and the new dynamics in popular media. Whomever the president is from this point forward, I think, is going to be facing that kind of criticism and confrontation constantly. And the thing about President Trump is, he’s not — he doesn’t shrink from challenge, right? And the world view of somebody who is in land development in Manhattan is that it’s a competition, right? And if you get hit, you hit back and you hit harder. And that’s kind of the frame of reference that he brings to the office. And so sometimes that’s really helpful. Sometimes, it positions us as a nation to be strong and show dominance and all that when it’s needed. And, sometimes, it could be a hindrance to him in what he’s trying to do. But he doesn’t communicate exactly like I do. But, overall, you look at the record as president, and you see what he’s done, for example, to the minorities and to the African-American community in the country, I mean, prior to the pandemic, we had the greatest economy in the history of the country, in the history of the world, lowest economic unemployment numbers in 50 years, and lowest in every racial demographic, including black Americans. He has done a lot criminal justice reform. He’s done a lot for every segment of the population. But that gets lost in all the controversy right now. And I think that’s really unfortunate.

ISAACSON: A lot of the military leaders and also some Republicans are now starting to criticize him. Famously, General Mattis said something like Donald Trump is the first president in my lifetime who doesn’t try to unite the American people, doesn’t even pretend to try. Instead, he tries to divide us. What did you think when you started hearing that criticism or when you heard General Mattis say those words?

M. JOHNSON: Well, first of all, that criticism, as I recall, has been leveled against every president in my lifetime, right? They used to say it about George W. Bush, his detractors did. And conservatives said it about Obama. This is the environment we’re in our politics. We’re losing civility in so many ways. We’re losing the ability to have thoughtful dialogue and discourse about these big issues, because everyone increasingly goes to their partisan corners and draws a line. And I have seen that development even since I have been in Congress. I came in, I took office in January 22. It has devolved since then. The last election cycle, with the Squad and others who came in, in the freshman class, they came in with a very different approach to governance than even their colleagues on that side of the aisle have. And we have seen that. So there’s less willingness for people to have a thoughtful dialogue. And it’s reflected at the highest levels. And I was disappointed that General Mattis said that. I don’t agree with that. I have worked in close proximity to the president. I believe I know his heart. I believe he genuinely cares about all of America, that he wants — when he says, put America first, he means that he wants to defend what’s great about our country. It’s a return to greatness, as he likes to say. And the ways to do that is very complex, and it’s, again, difficult waters to navigate. I just thought it was disappointing that military leaders would come out and say that.

ISAACSON: But a whole bunch of military leaders, including Admiral Mullen, Admiral McRaven, General Dempsey, they especially seemed to react against the use of U.S. military forces on the streets on civilian protests that, as you said, were legitimate, a lot of them, and regular protests, which is our First Amendment right. Clearly, we all want to stop the looting and the rioting. But do you think that the U.S. military should be deployed in this fashion?

M. JOHNSON: I think the Insurrection Act should be used very rarely and very cautiously. But it has been used multiple times in recent years. They — many people acted as though President Trump was the first to threaten or to utilize that, but it’s just simply not the case. Sometimes, the last resort is military protection. And I can just tell you what many of my constituents thought and believed as they were watching this play out on the 24-hour news cycle on every station their television the last few weeks, particularly now, it’s calm now — down now, apparently, and we are having more peaceful protests and less violence and less looting and all that. We’re grateful. But I think the reason it’s become more productive that way is because the commander in chief of the country said, enough is enough. And you have to have a heavy hand to maintain law and order and to restore the rule of law that, after all, the founders — John Adams famously said, we’re a nation of laws, not of men. We are — if you’re going to have a self-governing people, of, by and for the people, you have to have some semblance of peace and law and order on the streets. And so if local law enforcement, if the even National Guard troops are not able to maintain that peace, there must be a stopgap. And I think that’s what the president was trying to articulate. Maybe it had the desired effect. I understand the criticism. I do believe it should be very rarely used. But if you have a situation where you have absolute lawlessness and property destruction — I mean, in Minneapolis, I saw an estimate. There’s tens of millions of dollars done in property damage to small business owners, many of them African-American, ironically. And you have to have some stopgap to make sure that you maintain the rule of law, because that’s what America is founded upon.

ISAACSON: Senator Murkowski and others who are Republicans have started to say they’re struggling with their support of Trump. Are you thinking that there may be some cracks now in the Republican wall in Congress? And what do you feel about struggling to keep supporting all of what Trump has done?

M. JOHNSON: Look, I think the record of the Trump administration is, without question, one of extraordinary accomplishment by any objective measure. Put the personalities aside and the partisan politics aside. If you look at the record of what the Trump administration has been able to achieve for the American people, it’s unprecedented. And I think, at the end of the day, in this election cycle, when people go into that ballot box, they’re going to have a serious, distinctive choice between the record of the Trump administration, not rhetoric, but the record itself, and what it’s done for each and every American vs. the ideas that are being perpetuated by Joe Biden and his party. They are moving increasingly to the left, I think to a point that makes a lot of registered Democrats uncomfortable. I know, in my part of the country, there are a lot of people who have been lifelong Democrats who are looking at the leaning towards socialism and the big government solutions to everything, and the different — the difference in opinion on foreign policy and fiscal policy and all these other things, and they’re deeply concerned about it. They see the AOC wing of the party sort of taking over and the Bernie Sanders wing of the party and moving Joe Biden further and further to the left. I think that’s a very clear distinction.

ISAACSON: You’re the chair of the Republican Study Committee, and it’s producing a report, releasing a report this week on foreign policy that’s very strong and very specific, especially when it comes to China. What do you think we have to do to hold China accountable, both in terms of coronavirus, but also intellectual property theft and other things? Should we be fundamentally changing our relationship with China?

M. JOHNSON: As the president has rightfully pointed out, this is our greatest adversary right now. We have to understand it’s a very complex relationship we have with China, because they’re a big trading partner. But we also know they have some very nefarious plans for the world. They are trying to rebuild an empire. And so we’re suggesting now, I think, the toughest sanctions that Congress has ever suggested to be able to deal with this threat. And it is a threat. I think what’s happened with the COVID-19 pandemic has highlighted a lot of the problems. China was not dealing in good faith in this, and that they obscured a lot of the facts that the world needed sooner, and we could have prevented a lot of the calamity that’s befallen us. The WHO seemed to have been complicit in that. We’re deeply concerned about it. So, we think that there’s some sanctions that we recommend in this report, some very detailed things, to, again, target it towards the Communist Party in China, the CCP, and not the people themselves. We have to distinguish, because I think the people of China are victims of their communist regime. And that’s a problem that I think we have to soberly face together as Americans.

ISAACSON: Congressman Mike Johnson, thank you so much for joining us.

M. JOHNSON: It was a delight to be with you. Thanks so much.