Trump’s Win: How a “Polluted Information Environment” Shaped the Election

>>> NOW, REMEMBER TRUMP ALSO SAYING I AM YOUR RETRIBUTION QUESTION THAT HE HAS IDENTIFIED CERTAIN MEDIA AS THE ENEMY AND THREATENED IN JAIL FOR COVERAGE HE DOESN'T LIKE.

TRUMP IS ALSO THE FIRST CONVICTED FELON TO WIN THE PRESIDENCY AND ENTER THE WHITE HOUSE, HOW DID THAT HAPPEN?

FORMER CNN MEDIA REPORTER WHO IS NOW THE FOUNDER OF STATUS AND MEDIA, OLIVER DARCY, SAYS THE RISE OF NONTRADITIONAL OUTLETS IS LARGELY RESPONSIBLE, REACHING HUGE , TARGETED AUDIENCES, PRACTICALLY UNCHECKED, AND WITH NO GUARDRAILS ON SUPPORTERS TALKING POINTS AND OUTRIGHT LIES ON OCCASION.

DARCY JOINS MICHEL MARTIN TO DISCUSS THE CONSEQUENCES.

>> THANKS, CHRISTIANE .

OLIVER DARCY, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

THAT'S IT'S A PLEASURE, GLAD TO BE HERE.

SO, ON YOUR DIGITAL NEWS SITE, STATUS NEWS, YOU HAVE BEEN COVERING THE LANDSCAPE OF TECH AND MEDIA'S INFLUENCE ON POLITICS.

AND WE HAVE CERTAINLY SEEN THAT THIS ELECTION CYCLE.

IN FACT, YOU RECENTLY WROTE ABOUT WHAT YOU CALLED THE POLLUTED INFORMATION ENVIRONMENT THAT SHAPED THIS ELECTION, WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT?

>> I THINK THAT IF WE STEP BACK, AFTER AN ELECTION, PEOPLE TALK ABOUT HOW VOTERS DECIDED TO SUPPORT WHICHEVER CANDIDATE THEY ENDED UP CASTING THEIR BALLOT FOR, AND I THINK WE NEED TO THINK ABOUT WHY THEY FELT CERTAIN ISSUES , YOU KNOW, ALIGN MORE WITH THE CANDIDATE THAT THEY CHOSE, AND THAT COMES DOWN TO THE INFORMATION THEY ARE CONSUMING.

THAT REALLY HELPS SHAPE, I THINK, A LOT OF THESE ISSUES AND THE WAY THEY PERCEIVE THEM, SO, IF YOU LOOK AT THE INFORMATION ENVIRONMENT THAT PEOPLE ARE LIVING IN EVERY SINGLE DAY, IT IS VERY POLLUTED.

IT IS NO LONGER DOMINATED BY NEWS ORGANIZATIONS THAT HAVE HIGH STANDARDS, THAT FACT CHECK, THAT REALLY AIM TO GET THINGS RIGHT, YOU HAVE A LOT OF TALKERS OUT THERE, PODCASTERS, PEOPLE WHO ARE INTENTIONALLY DISHONEST, PARTISAN, AND THIS REALLY SEEPS INTO THE PUBLIC CONSCIOUSNESS, IN A WAY, AND I THINK INFLUENCES HOW PEOPLE VOTE, SO, WHEN I SAY POLLUTED INFORMATION ENVIRONMENT, I MEAN A LOT OF THE THINGS THAT PEOPLE ARE HEARING ARE EITHER NOT TRUE OR THEY ARE HEAVILY DISTORTED, BECAUSE PEOPLE THAT ARE PUSHING THEM HAVE AN AGENDA.

>> SO, HERE YOU WROTE THAT INSTEAD OF BEING SERVED UP AUTHORITATIVE CONTENT FROM TRUSTED SOURCES, A YOUNGER GENERATION OF VOTERS WHO ABSORBED NEWS THROUGH OSMOSIS, ON SOCIAL MEDIA, OR ALGORITHMICALLY FED A DIET OF JOE ROGAN CLICKS.

WE SAW THIS.

WE SAW THE FACT THAT THE MAJOR CANDIDATES, TRUMP AND HARRIS, REALLY LEANED INTO THESE SO- CALLED NONTRADITIONAL NEWS SOURCES.

WHAT I WANTED TO ASK IS WHAT WAS THE CHICKEN AND WHAT WAS THE EGG HERE?

DID THEY DO THAT BECAUSE THE SO- CALLED LEGACY MEDIA SOURCES WERE EFFECTIVE FOR THEM OR DID THEY DO THAT BECAUSE THESE DISTRIBUTORS OF CONTENT HAD SORT OF LOWERED THE GUARDRAILS, SO THEY HAD TO JUST KIND OF THE SWIM IN WHATEVER POND WAS THERE?

>> I THINK BOTH.

OBVIOUSLY, THEY WERE TRYING TO GO WITH THE AUDIENCE, AND AUDIENCE AS CERTAINLY MOVED OVER TO A LOT OF THESE DIGITAL PLATFORMS.

JOE ROGAN'S PODCAST WITH DONALD TRUMP, I'M NOT SURE WHAT THE VIEW COUNT IS, BUT I THINK IT IS OVER 50 MILLION VIEWS ON JUST YOUTUBE, SO IF YOU WANT TO REACH A LOT OF PEOPLE, GOING ON THESE PLATFORMS IS OFTEN A MORE EFFECTIVE WAY TO GET YOUR MESSAGE OUT THERE GOING ON A MORE TRADITIONAL PLATFORM LIKE CABLE NEWS OR EVEN JUST THE NIGHTLY NEWS.

THESE OTHER PLATFORMS HAVE HUGE REACH.

AND THEN, AS YOU SAID, THEY ALSO HAVE LOWER STANDARDS, SO YOU'RE NOT GOING TO GET THE SAME AGGRESSIVE LINE OF QUESTIONING FROM SOMEONE LIKE JOE ROGAN IF YOU ARE DONALD TRUMP.

YOU ARE MAYBE IF YOU GO ON THE JAKE TAPPER SHOW OR ON WITH GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, THOSE PEOPLE ARE GOING TO QUESTION YOU AND HOLD YOU TO COUNT.

THESE PODCASTS ARE A LOT MORE LAX, THEIR CONVERSATIONS, AND SO, IF YOU ARE A CANDIDATE, YOU'RE LOOKING AT THE INFORMATION LANDSCAPE, YOU'RE THINKING, WHY WOULD I SUBJECT MYSELF TO 60 MINUTES WHEN I CAN JUST GO ON JOE ROGAN AND MAYBE REACH A BIGGER AUDIENCE?

>> IS THE LEGACY MEDIA AT FAULT HERE?

IS THIS SOMETHING THAT THE LEGACY MEDIA SHOULD HAVE BEEN DOING THAT THEY WERE NOT DOING, OR IS THIS THE POWER OF THESE ALTERNATE INFORMATION SOURCES, HOWEVER POLLUTED THEY MAY BE, JUST SO POWERFUL THAT THAT'S WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN, THAT THESE CANDIDATES ARE JUST GOING TO GO THERE, BECAUSE IT IS JUST EASIER FOR THEM?

X SURE, I THINK THE CANDIDATES ARE DEFINITELY GOING TO GO IN THE FUTURE TO THESE PODCASTS OR THESE OTHER SOURCES OUT THERE TO GET THE MESSAGE ACROSS.

I DO THINK THAT DOESN'T NECESSARILY LEAVE THE LEGACY PRESS OFF THE HOOK.

AND I THINK BY AND LARGE, IF YOU LOOKED AT A LOT OF THE COVERAGE, YOU KNOW, ON THE NIGHTLY NEWS OR ELSEWHERE, IT WAS VERY MUCH FOCUSED ON THE HORSE RACE, ON POLES, WHO IS UP, WHO IS DOWN, ON CAMPAIGN STRATEGY, WHAT IS THE HARRIS CAMPAIGN STRATEGY, WHAT IS THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN STRATEGY, AND NOT AS MUCH ON SUBSTANCE.

WHAT DOES DONALD TRUMP WANT TO DO IN HIS SECOND TERM?

WHAT DID DONALD TRUMP DO IN HIS FIRST TERM.

THOSE ARE THINGS I THINK THE LEGACY PRESS REALLY DIDN'T FOCUS ON UP ON, AND ALSO, NOT BEING AGGRESSIVE ENOUGH, ENCOUNTERING A LOT OF DONALD TRUMP SUPPLIES.

WE HAVE NEVER REALLY SEEN A POLITICIAN LIKE HIM, WHO LIVES WITH SUCH EASE AND WITH SUCH FREQUENCY, SO I THINK THE TRADITIONAL APPROACH, [ INAUDIBLE ] LIKE TO TAKE IN CHECKING A CANDIDATE, DOESN'T NECESSARILY WORK WITH DONALD TRUMP, YOU HAVE TO BE VERY AGGRESSIVE AND TAKE AN AGGRESSIVE STANCE AND POSTURE TOWARDS HIM, TO MAKE SURE PEOPLE OUT THERE WHO ARE LISTENING TO YOUR NEWSCAST UNDERSTAND WHAT IS TRUTH AND WHAT IS FICTION, AND I THINK ON A NUMBER OF ISSUES, WHETHER IT IS THE ECONOMY OR THE BORDER OR ENERGY INDEPENDENCE, NEWS ORGANIZATIONS LET THESE MYTHS ABOUT TRUMP JUST KIND OF STAY AND SEEP INTO THE PUBLIC CONSCIOUSNESS WITHOUT REALLY MEANINGFUL PUSHBACK.

>> IF THAT IS THE CASE, THE LEGACY MEDIA SPEND A LOT OF RESOURCES AND TIME TALKING ABOUT THE WORDS RACE, WHY DO YOU THINK THAT IS?

>> I THINK IT IS PROBABLY A COUPLE REASONS.

ONE, THEY HAVE ALWAYS SORT OF THESE RACES HAVE BEEN GREAT GAME OF HIDE, IF YOU WILL, BUT I THINK THE SECOND THING IS IT COMES ACROSS AS NONPARTISAN.

PEOPLE, I THINK, ARE FEARFUL, A LOT OF THESE NEWS ORGANIZATIONS ARE FEARFUL OF BEING LABELED AS ANTI-TRUMP AND PARTISAN SOURCES.

AND WHEN YOU ARE JUST COVERING THE PROCESS AND THE STATE, THE POLLS, IT IS NOT PERCEIVED AS BEING ANTI-TRUMP.

IF YOU WERE TO SAY FOR INSTANCE AND DIVE INTO SOME OF THESE TOPICS AND SAY DONALD TRUMP IS LYING TO YOU, DONALD TRUMP LIED ABOUT THIS, HE JOKED ABOUT REPORTERS BEING SHOT, HE DID THIS AND THIS, I THINK THEN PEOPLE --NEWS EXECUTIVES AND JOURNALISTS ARE AWARE THAT THEY WILL BE PERCEIVED AS PARTISAN, SO THIS IS A NICE WAY OUT OF THAT, WHERE YOU CAN COVER THE RACE STILL, BUT YOU DON'T NECESSARILY HAVE TO BREATHE FIRE ON ONE CANDIDATE AND COME ACROSS AS BEING BIASED OR IN FAVOR OF ONE CAMP.

>> WHAT DIFFERENCE DO YOU THINK IT MAKES THAT SO MANY OF THE EITHER NEWS ORGANIZATIONS OR, I WOULD SAY CONTENT DISTRIBUTORS, WHICH OF THE TECH COMPANIES ARE, ARE OWNED BY A HANDFUL OF BILLIONAIRES?

WE SEE THAT X, FORMERLY TWITTER, IS OWNED BY ELON MUSK, THE RICHEST MAN IN THE WORLD, OR SO WE ARE TOLD, WHO REALLY HAS MADE IT INTO A VEHICLE FOR HIS POLITICAL OBJECTIVES AND HIS IDEOLOGICAL PREOCCUPATIONS, BUT THAT IS NOT THE ONLY ONE, AND I JUST WONDER IF YOU THINK THAT HAS MADE A DIFFERENCE.

>> I THINK IT IS ALARMING THAT MOST OF THE PUBLIC CONVERSATION IS CONTROLLED BY A VERY SMALL HANDFUL OF PEOPLE, ALL OF WHOM HAVE INTEREST OUTSIDE OF BEING IN PLACE FOR A GOOD, ROBUST PUBLIC CONVERSATION.

I THINK YOU SAW THAT WITH META, OWNED BY MARK ZUCKERBERG, OBVIOUSLY THIS PAST ELECTION CYCLE, WHERE THEY DOWN GRADED POLITICAL CONTENT, MADE IT MORE DIFFICULT FOR PEOPLE TO FOLLOW NEWS ON THE PLATFORM, WHETHER IT IS THREADS OR INSTAGRAM.

OBVIOUSLY, THERE ARE SOME ISSUES WITH YOUTUBE.

THEY MONETIZE A LOT OF ELECTION MISINFORMATION, WHICH IS INCREDIBLE TO ME AFTER THE 2020 THERE IS A PROBLEM, I THINK, WITH STANDARDS ON THESE TECH PLATFORMS AND THE WAY THE GOVERNMENT, AND I THINK YOU'RE SEEING ALL OF THEM BASICALLY [ INAUDIBLE ] DONALD TRUMP NOW IN PUBLIC, BECAUSE THEY HAVE A LOT OF BUSINESS BEFORE THE GOVERNMENT AND THEY DON'T WANT THE COMPANIES TO BE AT A DISADVANTAGE, AND SO YOU KNOW, WHETHER IT IS TIM COOK OR GOOGLE OR MARK ZUCKERBERG OR ELON MUSK, THEY ARE ALL ARMED TO SOME EXTENT , BENDING THE KNEE IN FRONT OF DONALD TRUMP.

BUT LET ME JUST STOP YOU, ELON MUSK HAS ARGUED, HE HAS PUT TENS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS BEHIND US, THAT HE THINKS FREE SPEECH REALLY MEANS FREE SPEECH AND THAT YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO SAY WHATEVER YOU WANT, AND I GUESS IT WILL GET SORTED OUT IN THE MARKETPLACE OF IDEAS.

AND THAT INCLUDES SPEECH THAT OTHER PEOPLE FIND OBJECTIONABLE OR EVEN FALSE.

>> I THINK IT IS A VERY THORNY ISSUE.

IT IS NOT LIKE THERE IS AN EASY ANSWER FOR THESE QUESTIONS AROUND FREE SPEECH ONLINE.

I THINK THERE ARE SOME OBVIOUS THINGS THAT PLATFORMS CAN DO, WHICH IS TO MAKE SURE THAT WHEN PEOPLE SEEK OUT INFORMATION, FOR INSTANCE, ON GOOGLE SEARCH, THE AUTHORITATIVE, CREDIBLE SOURCES ARE THE ONES THAT COME OUT, NOT THESE CONSPIRATORIAL ANTI-VAX WEBSITES OR WHATNOT, AND I THINK YOU HAVE SEEN SOME TECH PLATFORMS TAKE THIS SERIOUSLY.

OBVIOUSLY, ELON MUSK IS NOT REALLY ONE OF THOSE GUYS WHO BELIEVES IN THIS.

I WOULD ALSO STRESSED THAT ELON MUSK SAYS HE IS FIRST FREE SPEECH, BUT HE HAS SAID A LOT OF THINGS THAT WOULD SUGGEST HE IS NOT REALLY FOR FREE SPEECH WHEN IT COMES TO HIS CRITICS TALKING, HE HAS SUED CRITICS, HE HAS BEEN IN COMPLIANCE WITH GOVERNMENT TAKEDOWN ORDERS ABROAD AND THE PREVIOUS LEADERSHIP AT TWITTER, SO THERE ARE THINGS THAT HE HAS DONE, HIS TRACK RECORD DOESN'T NECESSARILY ALIGN UP WITH HIS RHETORIC, BUT THESE QUESTIONS ABOUT SPEECH ON PLATFORMS, IT IS VERY CHALLENGING AND YOU NEVER REALLY HAD ALGORITHMS BOOST A LOT OF THESE DISHONEST PEOPLE EITHER, RIGHT?

IF YOU WERE PREVIOUSLY TO SHOUT AND GET OUTSIDE IN NEW YORK CITY, [ INAUDIBLE ] ALGORITHMICALLY BOOSTED TO PEOPLE NOT FOLLOWING YOU.

THEY SHOULD PROBABLY HAVE SOME SORT OF BASE STANDARD ABOUT WHO THEY ARE [ INAUDIBLE ] THE PROBLEM IS HE IS GIVING A LOT OF REACH TO PEOPLE WHO ARE DISHONEST.

>> YOU HAVE SPOKEN A LOT ABOUT THE BUSINESS SIDE, YOU HAVE TALKED ABOUT HOW CHANGES IN THE BUSINESS ITSELF ADVANCED THE IMPACT ON POLITICS.

THE QUESTION I HAVE FOR YOU IS ARE THE POLITICAL FIGURES WHO HAVE TO KIND OF NAVIGATE THIS SPACE, ARE THEY ATTENTIVE TO THESE CHANGES?

>> I MEAN, I DO THINK THAT THE LEGACY MEDIA HASN'T EVOLVED PROBABLY QUICK ENOUGH IN RECOGNIZING THE CHANGES OF MEDIA LANDSCAPE.

I THINK YOU ARE SEEING SOME OF THEM DO THAT NOW, BUT BY AND LARGE, I THINK THE LEGACY MEDIA WAS LIVING OFF OF AN OLD BUSINESS MODEL, AND THAT BUSINESS MODEL IS NOW QUICKLY COLLAPSING AND IT IS PROMPTING THEM TO SEEK OUT OTHER REVENUE STREAMS, OTHER BUSINESS MODELS, BUT BEFORE, THEY WERE HAPPY TO BASICALLY BE AT THE BUFFET THAT WAS KEEPING THEM IN BUSINESS FOR SO LONG, AND I THINK WHEN YOU LOOK AT YOUTUBERS OR PODCASTERS, THEY GENERALLY HAVE TO BE A LOT MORE SCRAPPY.

THEY FOUGHT FOR THEIR AUDIENCES, THEY REALLY WORKED TO BUILD THEM, AND YOU KNOW, FOR SO LONG, PEOPLE WOULD JUST TURN ON THE TV AND WATCH WORLD NEWS TONIGHT, THEY WOULD TURN ON THE TV AND WATCH THE TODAY SHOW.

THERE WASN'T MUCH WORK THAT WAS NECESSARILY BEING DONE TO EARN THE AUDIENCE, WHEREAS IF YOU LOOK AT THE PODCASTERS, THEY ARE REALLY SCRAPPY.

AND I THINK THAT IS ONE ISSUE.

BUT YEAH, I GUESS IT IS NOT ENTIRELY THEIR FAULT.

PEOPLE WILL GO TO OUTLETS THAT ARE SOFT AROUND THEM THAT HAVE HUGE REACH, BUT PARTIALLY, IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT, THESE LEGACY OUTLETS, THESE REALLY DONE A LOT MORE EARLY ON TO ADAPT TO THE CHANGING MEDIA ENVIRONMENT, AND OUR REALLY, AT THE LAST FINAL MINUTE BEFORE THE CLOCK STRIKES MIDNIGHT, THEY ARE DESPERATELY TRYING TO GET INTO THESE FIELDS.

>> SO, LET'S FAST-FORWARD HERE.

YOU KNOW, PRESIDENT-ELECT TRUMP HAS MADE NO SECRET OF THE FACT THAT HE IS NO FAN OF THE LEGACY MEDIA.

ON THE ONE HAND, HE HAS ALWAYS TRASHED THE MEDIA, RIGHT?

THE FAKE NEWS, WE HAVE HEARD IT ALL.

IN THIS LAST CAMPAIGN, HIS MOST RECENT CAMPAIGN, HE SAID HE WOULDN'T MIND IF THE JOURNALIST GOT SHOT, WHICH IS CAMPAIGN SPOKESMAN SAYS WAS MISINTERPRETED, BUT WE ALL HEARD IT, WE CAN DECIDE WHAT WE THINK ABOUT THAT.

ON THE OTHER HAND, HE WAS VERY AVAILABLE TO THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA.

HE WAS VERY AVAILABLE, HE GAVE LOTS OF INTERVIEWS, HE TALKED TO PEOPLE AT LENGTH FROM ALL THESE DIFFERENT SORT OF OUTLETS.

I'M JUST CURIOUS, GOING FORWARD, HOW DO YOU THINK THIS IS GOING TO GO?

>> I THINK DONALD TRUMP'S RELATION SHIP TO MEDIA GETS [ INAUDIBLE ].

IT GETS VERY HOT AND COLD.

OCCASIONALLY, HE WILL DO A LOT OF INTERVIEWS, AND THEN HE WOULD JUST GO BACK TO FOX NEWS UNIVERSE AND JUST KIND OF STAY THERE.

AND SO, THE LATTER PART OF THE CAMPAIGN, I THINK THAT'S GENERALLY WHAT HE WAS DOING.

HE CANCELED 60 MINUTES, HE CANCELED A CNBC INTERVIEW, AND HE WAS DOING THESE PODCASTS AND HANGING OUT ON FOX NEWS EVERY SINGLE DAY.

I THINK THAT WILL OSCILLATE DURING THIS PRESIDENTS DAY.

BUT HOW HE TREATS THE PRESS IS UP IN THE AIR.

I TALKED TO STEPHANIE BRUSH ON EARLIER THIS SUMMER AND SHE SAID SHE HAD BEEN TASKED WITH KEEPING A LOT OF THE CRITICAL PRESS OFF OF WHITE HOUSE GROUNDS.

YOU SAW THEM TRY DOING THAT IN THE FIRST ADMINISTRATION OF JIM ACOSTA, AND I'M NOT CONVINCED HE WON'T TRY THAT AGAIN.

I THINK HE IS GOING TO HAVE PEOPLE WHO ARE JUST WILLING TO THROW OUT THE NORMS AND TAKE A REALLY HARD LINE STANCE AGAINST THE NEWS MEDIA, SO WE WILL SEE.

AND OF COURSE, JUST LIKE THE IDEA THAT HE COULD MAKE LIFE DIFFICULT FOR SOMEONE LIKE JEFF BEZOS IF THE WASHINGTON POST OVERLY CRITICAL.

I THINK THAT IS A BIG WORRY AS WELL.

>> LIKE HOW, LIKE WHAT COULD HE DO?

WELL, BLUE ORIGIN, HIS SPACE COMPANY HAS BILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN CONTRACTS WITH THE U.S. GOVERNMENT.

I THINK IF THEY WERE MAYBE AWARDED TO SOMEONE LIKE ELON MUSK, WHO NOW IS BEST FRIENDS WITH DONALD TRUMP, THAT WOULD BE A PROBLEM FOR JEFF BEZOS, THAT IS NOT SOMETHING THAT IS GREAT.

AMAZON WEB SERVICES ALSO HAS A LOT OF GOVERNMENT BUSINESS.

SO, IF HE WERE TO MAYBE TAKE THAT AWAY OR START AWARDING THESE BIG CONTRACTS TO COMPETITORS, I THINK THAT PRESENTS A PROBLEM FOR SOMEONE LIKE JEFF BEZOS.

YOU KNOW, THESE COMPANIES ARE VERILY HEAVILY INTERTWINED WITH GOVERNMENT, JUST AS ELON MUSK'S ARE, THAT'S WHY ELON MUSK IS PROBABLY A VERY HAPPY MAN TODAY.

HE IS WORTH MORE THAN $50 BILLION SINCE ELECTION DAY, BECAUSE WALL STREET SEES THAT HE IS GOING TO HAVE A VERY GOOD RELATIONSHIP WITH THE NEW PRESIDENT AND THAT IS GOING TO BE VERY BENEFICIAL TO TESLA, AND SPACEX, BOTH OF WHICH RELY ON A LOT OF GOVERNMENT CONTRACTS.

SO, IT IS NOT REALLY HARD TO IN THE WASHINGTON POST, IT'S A VERY SMALL BUSINESS, THAT IS NOT A THING THAT IS MAKING MONEY, IT IS ACTUALLY LOSING MONEY.

SO LIKE YOU COULD SEE IF YOUR JEFF BEZOS AND YOU ARE PRESENTED WITH DO I LOSE SOME SUBSCRIBERS TO THE WASHINGTON POST OR DO I LOSE ALIENS OF DOLLARS IN BLUE ORIGIN CONTRACTS?

THAT IS A CALCULATION HE HAS BASICALLY GOT TO MAKE, AND YOU CAN SEE WHY HE MIGHT NOT WANT TO ENDORSE KAMALA HARRIS AT THE LAST MINUTE.

>> THE QUESTION, OLIVER, IS WHAT TWO PEOPLE WHO DON'T THINK [ INAUDIBLE ] NOT BE ORGANIZED BY PEOPLE WHO CAN CURRY FAVOR WITH WHOEVER IS IN POWER THROUGH THEIR VAST PERSONAL WEALTH, WHO CAN CONTROL COMMUNICATION SYSTEMS, AND THEN ON TO, YOU KNOW, THE POINT THAT THEY WANT TO MAKE , WHAT DO PEOPLE DO WHO DON'T AGREE WITH THAT, WHAT SHOULD THEY DO?

>> I MEAN, I DON'T KNOW.

THIS IS THE ISSUE THAT WE ARE NOW AS A SOCIETY CONFRONTING, AS PEOPLE AMASS INSANE AMOUNTS OF WEALTH, BECAUSE NOW, EVEN WITH ELON MUSK, IF THE FINDS HIM FOR POSSIBLY VIOLATING THE LAW WITH THE MILLION-DOLLAR GIVEAWAY HE WAS DOING IN PENNSYLVANIA, DOES IT MATTER TO HIM?

IT DOESN'T MATTER TO HIM.

YOU CAN FIND HIM $1 MILLION, IT DOESN'T MATTER TO HIM.

IT IS ALMOST LIKE A LOT OF THESE PEOPLE HAVE BASICALLY BECOME ABOVE THE LAW TO SOME EXTENT, UNLESS THEY ARE COMMITTED LIKE A VIOLENT CRIME.

SO, I THINK THIS IS AN ISSUE AS A SOCIETY WE ARE LEARNING TO GRAPPLE WITH, WHAT HAPPENS WHEN PEOPLE AMASS THIS MUCH WEALTH, WHERE THEY ARE BASICALLY ABLE TO FLY HIGH ABOVE A LOT OF THE THINGS THAT HAVE BEEN PUT IN PLACE TO MAKE SURE PEOPLE DO OBEY THE LAW AND ORDER?

>> SO, WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO BE PAYING ATTENTION TO?

>> I THINK ELON MUSK AND DONALD TRUMP'S ORIGINAL -- RELATIONSHIP IS GOING TO BE REALLY KEY.

I'M ALSO CURIOUS HOW THESE BILLIONAIRES WHO OWN THESE MEDIA COMPANIES ARE GOING TO ACT.

IS THE WASHINGTON POST GOING TO BE ALLOWED TO CONTINUE TARGETING COVERAGE OF DONALD TRUMP AS IT DID IN THE FIRST ADMINISTRATION, OR WAS WHAT JEFF BEZOS DID WITH THE ENDORSEMENT A SIGN OF WHAT COULD BE TO COME?

AND I THINK ALSO, ANOTHER KEY THING TO WATCH WOULD BE THESE NEWS ORGANIZATIONS LIKE NBC NEWS OR CNN, OWNED BY BIGGER MEDIA CONGLOMERATES, HOW DO THEY COVER THE WHITE HOUSE, BECAUSE THEY ALSO HAVE SOME BUSINESS POTENTIALLY BEFORE THE GOVERNMENT ?

THEY WANT TO DO SOME ACQUISITIONS, A LOT OF THESE NEWS COMPANIES HAVE TALKED OPENLY ABOUT THAT, AND IF ONE OF THE OUTLETS, LET'S SAY NBC NEWS OR MSNBC IS A REAL THORN IN THE SIDE TO DONALD TRUMP, YOU KNOW, HE MIGHT PULL THE LEVERS OF GOVERNMENT AND MAKE IT A DEAL THAT BRIAN ROBERTS AT COMCAST WANTS TO MAKE A LITTLE MORE CHALLENGING.

YOU HAVE ALREADY SEEN HIM THREATEN THAT.

HE POSTED ON HIS TRUTH SOCIAL PLATFORM LAST YEAR THAT THE GOVERNMENT SHOULD COME DOWN HARD ON BRIAN ROBERTS AND COMCAST, THE OWNERS OF NBC AND UNIVERSAL, FOR THE COVERAGE ON MSNBC THAT HE WAS RECEIVING.

I AM PAYING ATTENTION TO THAT AS WELL.

I THINK THERE'S A LOT OF BEHIND- THE-SCENES POSITIONING THAT A MAKING THAT WILL INFLUENCE NEWS COVERAGE, AND ULTIMATELY THE INFORMATION ECOSYSTEM IN WHICH PEOPLE LIVE.

>> OLIVER DARCY, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US .

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH, THIS IS GREAT AND FUN.

>> AND FINALLY, SHOOT FOR THE STARS, THAT IS WHAT BRITISH AUTHOR SAMANTHA HARVEY DID WITH HER NOVEL, ORBITAL, WHICH HAS WON THIS YEAR'S PRESTIGIOUS PRIZE HERE IN THE UK.

IT TELLS THE TALE OF SIX FICTIONAL ASTRONAUTS ON THE INTERNATIONAL SPACE STATION, EXPLORING THEMES SUCH AS DESIRE, MOURNING, AND THE CLIMATE CRISIS.

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