Read Full Transcript EXPAND
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to “Amanpour & Company” Here is what’s coming up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VALI NASR, FORMER SENIOR ADVISER TO U.S. ENVOY TO AFGHANISTAN AND PAKISTAN: The lesson for the region is that the Europeans and Americans can make a
lot of noise about human rights. But at the end of the day, they need oil, they need the money, and they need stability.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: The shifting sands in Saudi Arabia and beyond. I asked former U.S. State Department official Vali Nasr about U.S. secretary of state,
Antony Blinken, seeking a reset there and embarking on a crucial trip to China.
Then —
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
And I spent decades trying to nurture all the other areas of my life that did not, could not be reduced to just beauty.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: — dubbed the most photographed woman in the world, but at what cost? Actress and former child model, Brooke Shields, tells me how she
defended her own self-worth.
Also, ahead —
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sometimes I want to give up because I’m tired of fighting with everything. But now, Olympics, it’s the big light in my life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: — “We Dare to Dream,” a new film following refugee Olympians on their journey from war zones to the pinnacle of world sports. Hari
Sreenivasan speaks to the director and Oscar nominated Syrian filmmaker, Waad Al-Kateab, and Joe Gebbia, the Airbnb co-founder who helped her
produce it.
Welcome to the program. I’m Christiane Amanpour in London.
Now is the time for intense diplomacy, that’s what the White House says as U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken prepares to travel to Beijing this
weekend, hoping to thaw their very chilly standoff. It follows his other diplomatic trip last week to the Middle East, where reality is beginning to
bite. That region sees the United States pulling back from its historical security role, shifting its strategic gaze to China. And so, that’s making
room for other players, like Saudi Arabia. From signing global soccer superstars to starting up a major new golf tour to hosting Ukrainian
Volodymyr Zelenskyy and getting Beijing to broker a new diplomatic deal with Iran.
Meanwhile, top Iranian officials having been meeting with Europeans this week. We get insight into all of these moving parts with Middle East expert
and former senior advisory at the State Department, Vali Nasr.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Vali Nasr, welcome back to the program.
VALI NASR, FORMER SENIOR ADVISER TO U.S. ENVOY TO AFGHANISTAN AND PAKISTAN: Thank you. Good to be here.
AMANPOUR: So, you study this region a lot. So, I’m just going to start by asking you, is there anything that gives you nightmares at night now, or is
it all on the right path and you sleep like a baby?
NASR: No, I wouldn’t say that I would sleep like a baby. But there are at least some positive signs compared to what we have encountered in the past,
and that is, for instance, that Iran and Saudi Arabia decided that it’s in the interest of the region and their own national interest to bury the
hatchet, find a way to work together, similarly between the UAE and Iran, between Saudi Arabia and Turkey, between UAE and Israel.
Things are not solved, but at least the region is taking some ownership of how to fix things, and that’s a positive track. On the other hand, we’re
also seeing the United States being more interested in diplomacy than war in this region for pragmatic reasons, like right now, it’s trying to talk
to Iran as a way of trying to contain its nuclear program, it’s trying to work with Saudi Arabia on oil issues.
So, what we are seeing is that everybody is trying to not get into conflict in the Middle East, not to fix things through conflict but through positive
engagement. Now, this is a steep hill. There’s a lot of issues in the region. There is too much poverty, too much unemployment, too much
authoritarianism, too many bad guys, too much corruption, we still have broken states in Yemen. And Syria, we still have Bashar al-Assad. We still
have problems with Iran. We still have leftovers of what happened in Iran in the past few months. We have tensions between Iran and Israel. We have
Iranian nuclear threats. All of these things are there. So, the problems haven’t gone away.
AMANPOUR: And that’s the positive side?
NASR: And that’s the positive. But, at least, we’re not seeing a near eruption in the region.
AMANPOUR: OK. So, let me take one or two of those points. First and foremost, “The New York Times” reports today with a headline that Saudi
Arabia, and particularly MBS, the crown prince, has gone from pariah to partner, whether it’s about this diplomacy and being, you know, closer to
Iran now, whether it’s even about the LIV PGA Golf merger. I mean, money talks.
How is that possible?
NASR: Well, largely, he’s also learning on the process. I mean, he’s looked at Bashar al-Assad, the guy survived. I mean, in the end, everybody said
there’s no way in which such a monster can survive in what he did to his own population, and yet, he is still there.
AMANPOUR: And not only that rehabilitated in Saudi Arabia —
NASR: That’s right.
AMANPOUR: — by all the big muckety-mucks of that region.
NASR: Exactly. So — or the Taliban are back in Afghanistan or the Ayatollahs in Iran, you know, what turned into a pariah a few months ago,
and now the United States is talking to him. So, I think the lesson for the region is that the Europeans and Americans can make a lot of noise about
human rights. But at the end of the day, they need oil, they need the money and they need stability. And they’re not going to come in and try to change
the regime in Saudi Arabia, they’re not going to get into a tussle that’s going to jack up the price of oil to something that will cause inflation in
Europe in America.
And basically, what they need to do is to focus on what they want to do. In some ways, they just sit tight until the United States and Europe come
around to engaging them. So, pariah stated, in their opinion, is only temporary, right? And they can live with it. And in this region, you know,
there’s plenty of pariahs. So, it’s not something that really impacts their domestic stability.
AMANPOUR: What is the biggest issue? Is it the Iran nuclear deal? And can JCPOA be revived? Because I know you’ve written something different. So,
can it be revived?
NASR: Still, the Iran nuclear deal is the biggest issue in the region because it is the one issue that can cause war in this region, either
between Iran and Israel or between the United States and Iran.
At this moment, no, the deal cannot be revived because we’re too close to the American elections and I don’t think the United States is ready to sort
of sign into the deal. We saw that Iran is not ready to sign. But that does not mean that there’s not a possibility of preventing Iran from exploding
its nuclear program into a nuclear threshold state.
And I think that’s what the United States is right now trying to do. Trying to see whether there’s a possibility of arriving at some kind of an interim
understanding at even with (INAUDIBLE) Iran.
AMANPOUR: So, Donald Trump, who’s under indictment, has plead in his arraignment in Miami Court, is responsible, along with his partners, MBS
and Benjamin Netanyahu, for pulling the U.S. out of this deal and making it a much more dangerous situation. Would you agree?
NASR: I agree. I mean, it was based on false assumption that Iran would crumble within a few months, and neither the regime would go or the
Iranians would completely surrender their nuclear program. And that hasn’t happened. And we can see that that alliance has come apart. Saudis have now
a very different theory for Iran, which is, we don’t want to fight with them. We want to open embassies. We want to do business. We want to even
create naval security arrangements with Iran in the Persian Gulf.
The United States is no longer on the same page with Israel. Israel State wants a hard stand against Iran. The Americans want just managing Iran.
AMANPOUR: OK. So, in foreign affairs, you wrote about a new, you know, regional deal rather than just a U.S. Iranian plus the other, you know, big
powers. Last month you said, unlike the JCPOA, this kind of deal would generate buy-in from countries near Iran, making it far more sustainable.
It would give Iran more meaningful and lasting economic relief. It could permanently, not temporarily, contain Iran’s nuclear program, and it might
reduce Tehran’s support for troublesome militias in the region. In doing so, such a deal could bring more stability to a part of the world that
sorely needs it.
Why do you think, A, that kind of original deal would be attractive to Iran? And, B, why would it be more stable than with the guarantees of, you
know, the U.S. and the major Europeans and Russia?
NASR: Well, I mean, any kind of a deal still needs an American guarantee because sanctions globally are in America’s hands. Ultimately, Americans
have to have a buy-in. But the reality is that the current JCPOA is not going anywhere. Any deal U.S. and Iran make right now is only about a
temporary cease-fire. It’s not really a peace treaty between them.
AMANPOUR: We’ve seen that the two reporters who broke the news, the Iranian female reporters who broke the news of Mahsa Amini’s death are on trial
right now. Human right is a big, big issue, but not one that governments tend to focus on in regards to Iran historically. That — is it
complicated? I want to know what you think about the possibility of, you know, releasing the Americans who are still held hostage there? We’ve seen
in the last week or two or more Europeans being released.
NASR: Well, I mean, in the — I think for the Islamic Republic, these are separate issues. The issue of dual nationals or foreign nationals in prison
in Iran is a matter of barter for money or for their own prisoners. So, there’s been negotiations with the U.S. through the Cataris (ph) over the
release of the three Iranian American prisoners, including Siamak Namazi, who was on your own program, in exchange for $7 billion of Iranian money
that are frozen in South Korea plus some other things.
So, I think the Iranian government is — now that it feels a little confident that the protests in the streets are not the way they were, they
are making an example of these cases as a way of deterring repetition. I mean, we read about these journalists, but at the same time, as we’re
talking, the Iranian universities have been told to expel any professor or student who has been seen on a video, and now, they have also facial
recognition, et cetera, that has been seen during the protests, without possibility of being hired again.
All is with the view of not only purging the universities now but also putting a marker for the next time that something like this happens that
students or professors will think twice before they tweet or show up at protests. So, it’s a very, very heavy hand with a government that basically
doesn’t think it’s going to lose anything by doing these things because unlike, let’s say, Saudis or Turks or others, there’s no equities in the
West. It already has a pariah status. And its highest priority is survival. And for that survival it needs to intimidate the population and it’s using
the judicial system to do that right now.
AMANPOUR: Basically, the United States, even according to some of its own regional officials deployed there, seems to be really putting out of that
region. I mean, kind of retreating from the Middle East. A, do you agree with that? And B, do you see, you know, I guess a belated or a continued to
pivot to Asia, pivot to China particularly, sucking out all the oxygen of U.S. policy in that region?
NASR: So, I would say the United States is still very much in the region, in form business, technology and having a lot of troops on the ground.
Where it’s retreating from is actually the commitment to use those troops in a situation that can cause war, which is, if you’re not going to use
your troops for war, then what’s the point of having them, right?
They’ve shown in Afghanistan they want leave. President Trump showed the Saudis that when push came to shove and Iranians hit Saudi oil facilities,
knocked 50 percent of Saudi production offline, threatened global oil, that he basically turned — he didn’t do anything about it. So, what’s the point
of —
AMANPOUR: So, in other words, their security is no longer guaranteed by the United States?
NASR: That’s right.
AMANPOUR: And they understand that. So, they are moving towards China. Is that right?
NASR: Well, they’re moving towards sort of alternatives. One movement was closer ties to Israel. So, now, I think Saudi Arabia and the UAE can feel
relatively comfortable that whatever happens they are not target number one on Iran’s retaliation in this.
And then, you’re right, they’re looking for also working with Russia, working with China, those countries have leverage on Iran. If those
countries are sort of brought into some kind of a political discussion in the region, perhaps they can, you know, help change the atmosphere in the
region.
AMANPOUR: So, all of that fine, but the United States is basically saying now, and it’s starting to put out intelligence, that it’s growing very
concerned about a growing military cooperation between Iran and Russia. The White House has released details of this cooperation, production and supply
of drones for use in Ukraine, but also, it released a map showing the root that Iran appears to be using to ship equipment from Iran, Amirabad, to a
place in Russia. Also, it’s released satellite image that we’re showing of a plant location of a purported drone manufacturing plant inside Russia
that the U.S. believes Iran is supplying the material to build this drone plant.
How much of a threat is it to the U.S., to its regional interests, and obviously, to the war in Ukraine that Iran appears to be forming an axis
of, whatever, anti-U.S., anti-NATO, with Russia and China? Because China also apparently has some material and cooperation involved.
NASR: I think in the very short run, I would say this is disconcerting, but I wouldn’t say that Iranians are critical to the Russian war effort, right?
Yes, they’re like hitting Kyiv with huge amounts of drones and missiles, it’s very significant. But the Russians are not “winning or holding their
head above the water” because of Iran.
It actually rather portends to something more dangerous coming down the road. In other words, you know, Iran is going to basically become so
integrated in — with Russia that it literally will never — not be easily separated anymore. It also means, at some point, that the Russians will
repay Iran with certain things that everybody else is worried about like jet fighters, advanced anti-aircraft missiles, et cetera.
I think you’re right, if you added the China layer to it, then you’re not talking about Iran Russia, you’re talking about a massive Eurasian land
mass from China to Russia to Iran. I mean, we already have heard that the UAE has a naval base that was collaborating with the Chinese, which annoyed
the United States. The UAE has come out of this maritime arrangement the United States had, and it’s saying that, you know, Iran, Saudi Arabia, you
know, UAE can have their own Persian Gulf security. That sounds really interesting. It’s going to get even more interesting if China eventually
joins this.
AMANPOUR: You know, like most, you know, foreign affairs specialists and diplomats and negotiators, you’re obviously very interested in Henry
Kissinger’s history. He just turned 100. And there’s been a huge number of interviews and articles written.
What do you — what is your biggest take away from what he’s saying now in relation to a lot of these today — you know, today global crises, whether
it’s, you know, the cold war potentially between the U.S. and China, whether it’s the complete dissolution of relations between the U.S. and
Russia, the fate of Ukraine, security of Europe?
NASR: I think the very foremost at the highest level is that Kissinger saw the world through sort of issue of balance of power. That’s what led him to
go to China and tried to exercise that. We’re actually in that kind of an environment, that the balance of power globally is shifting. Within the
Middle East it’s shifting, in Europe it’s shifting, in Asia it’s shifting. And therefore, that sort of approach that he had that the United States has
to understand, you know, how to maneuver and take advantage of this change of balance of power.
For instance, the United States has not done a very good job so far of playing a balancing role between China and Russia or between Iran and China
or Iran and Russia in a way that it would separate these from each other.
AMANPOUR: Instead, it’s gone — they’ve gone together?
NASR: Right. In fact, our sanctions policy and our aggressive policy against all three of them at the same time is exactly anti-Kissingerian
(ph) in that sense. So, we’re actually bringing them together. So, you know, think about the endgame in Ukraine, think about an endgame in China,
think about an endgame in the Middle East.
And so, I think it’s council, whether you like Kissinger or not, whether you agree with his policies or not, I think there is something here,
because we, right now, are in a situation that we really need to think out of the box, outside of the parameters that we have, and I can go back to
the time when we were so successful in separating two communist powers, both of whom were our enemies from one another and see how we can do that
with China and Russia or with Iran and Russia at this point in time.
AMANPOUR: Fascinating. Vali Nasr, thank you very much, indeed.
NASR: Thank you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Next, to a conversation about beauty, objectification, and finding agency despite it all. Brooke Shields is one of the most
recognizable faces of our time. As a child star, she was highly sexualized in movies and commercials. And now, she’s decided to open up about her life
in a new documentary, “Pretty Baby.” Here’s a clip from the trailer.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was catapulted into the world of adult sexuality. I just always remember thinking like, I hope she’s OK. She was a young girl
in an all-adult world.
BROOKE SHIELDS, ACTRESS: I’m amazed that I survived any of it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Brooke Shields spoke to me recently from Los Angeles. And I started by asking why she wanted to explore this issue now.
SHIELDS: I think that it’s a very sort of fraught topic because it is that, oh, you must have it so tough because you’re pretty, you know. It is about
so much more than that. It’s about self-worth, being objectified, what that means, how, as a young woman, trying to grow into my own self-confidence
and healthy body image, how it’s picked apart all the time, and there’s so much about how transactional beauty is that was fascinating to me to sort
of delve into.
And I have two daughters. And their physical attributes are a huge part of how the world reacts to them, whether they — you know, people think they
should look more like me or they don’t look like me. You know, it’s all very kind of detailed in it’s — I mean, it’s delicate.
And so, the idea of being beautiful was something that was thrust on me, it felt arbitrary, and I spent decades trying to nurture all the other areas
of my life that did not, could not be reduced to just beauty.
AMANPOUR: And do you feel now at the age of — I’m not sure, maybe 57, and you look absolutely phenomenal.
SHIELDS: Fifty-eight.
AMANPOUR: Fifty-eight. Well, even better.
SHIELDS: It’s just —
AMANPOUR: Do you feel that you did accomplish that, that you were able to live a life, for most of your life, that relied — or at least gave you a
feeling of self-worth beyond the exterior shell that we all saw?
SHIELDS: I worked very hard and I stayed away from Hollywood. I stayed on the East Coast. I always went to normal or regular conventional children’s
schools and high schools, and then onto college, and that, I fought for friends that I could trust, friends that were going to be with me for the
long haul. It was a very important way to live for me, because I knew that I wouldn’t survive this industry because I am a sensitive person and I am
an empath and I’m also an actress, you know?
So, I have all of that sort of churning inside me all the time. And if you’re not strong and you don’t have a place to go home to, emotionally,
mentally, physically, I think this industry can devour you.
AMANPOUR: I mean, almost — if it hadn’t been for you and your strength of determination, I think, you might have been gobbled up. You know, you’ve
said that you were barely even a year old before you did your first public modeling job. I mean, tell us about that. It was for what?
SHIELDS: Well, I said to my mother, it is time for me to earn a living. I have only known that, but it also was a form of that’s how we lived, that’s
how we paid the rent, that’s how we got to go on a vacation, that’s how my mom and I got a car, you know. We — it was a business, and that’s how it
just happened to be what I did.
So, I — from that time I was quite young, but I think what it did was I never knew relative anonymity in so far as I had one life, and then all of
a sudden, it was you served by fame. This was a gradual, continual, process. And work ethic was what I relied on the most.
And so, I think I dove into the logistics of working, being on time, being a good worker, you know. And I think that that helped me have a certain
perspective. And again, you know, I never missed school. So, everybody was always saying, oh, you lost your childhood. And I was a cheerleader, I was
— you know, and in both high school and college, it was an adjustment for other kids, you know. I came in and I came in as a famous person, but you
know what, it didn’t last long. Within a semester, I have friends that I am still best friends with.
AMANPOUR: I was absolutely fascinated to hear that you did your college thesis on “Pretty Baby,” the film, interviewing Louis Malle, the director.
“Pretty Baby” is the name of this documentary. At the time, you said, you knew that this film was going to be in good taste. I want to watch a clip
of it, because it was so controversial and it’s followed you basically your whole life. Here’s a clip.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They say that on the set you felt very uncomfortable during all of this. Is not true?
SHIELDS: Well, I mean, I knew it was going to be done in good taste. So, I mean, you know, if you like think about the whole thing, it might be a
little uncomfortable, but I knew that it was going to be a good taste and it wasn’t any porno movie. And so, I didn’t feel so bad about it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Honestly, it’s amazing. Of course, it’s not a clip from the film, which I will play, but it’s you in such a grown-up way, at the age of, I
guess, 11 or something, talking to these interviewers. And I think — talk to me about what you were trying to discover years later, once you did your
thesis and what did you want to get from Louis Malle, the director?
SHIELDS: Well, I got exactly what I had hoped for. First of all, the interesting thing was the controversy surrounding that film, it was always
focused on the film. Never focused on how these journalists could get away with the line of questioning or the sort of the approach to dealing with a
child. And it always sort of struck me as very just interesting and slightly ironic.
But what I needed to do from myself was reclaim the film because the film, to this day, is the best film I have been in, in my opinion. It’s the most
artistic and creative and beautiful and quality. And the subject matter was a true story.
So, I didn’t grapple with that at the time, but I knew that it deserved more of an artistic eye, not just the controversy. And I have been so
plagued by it. And so, nobody wanted to hear the narrative that I felt in my heart.
And so, I was a French literature major, and I decided to intellectualize it from that perspective from a literary perspective, from a language
perspective and from working with an unbelievable (INAUDIBLE), you know I mean? Like this — it was such an honor, but it was all reduced in America.
You know, it was very loved and applauded, it won the Palme d’Or and Cannes and it — you know, Europe loved it. And then, America just desecrated it.
And I — and then, talking to him was I had to really nail him down. I kind of had to lie. I had to tell him I was going to call one day and I called
the day earlier because he was slippery like that. He didn’t really want to be in an interview, you know, especially with me, you know, so many years
later. And he really affirmed so much of what I believed the movie was showing, you know, withing, you know, textualist, you know?
And so, it just was — when so much has been said about something you’ve done or you, you have to find ways to reclaim it so that you can go to
sleep at night feeling really good about the choices you’ve made.
AMANPOUR: OK. So, that —
SHIELDS: So, that’s all you’ve got.
AMANPOUR: Yes. That makes me have to ask you the question then, at the time, did you feel like it wasn’t the right choice? If you’re saying you
had to be able to sleep at night being comfortable. I want to play something which is — I find really, really, really interesting aim. It’s
the kiss in the film with Keith Carradine. And, you know, he said something to you about it. Let’s just play this clip.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DREW BARRYMORE, ACTRESS: It’s pretend. This is all make believe. I’ve been on those sets. People are having fun. You’re filming it. It’s art. You
don’t really think about it until later. There is an aftermath that then cycles in your head of like, was that OK?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I would argue she wasn’t conscious of what was wrong, but had a feeling that something was not good, was off.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: So, that’s the clip. Plus, obviously, Drew Barrymore and another author talking about it, and about you. Do they get it right? Is that how
you felt, that something might have been off?
SHIELDS: I think that’s what to Drew’s experience was. And I — what I was worried about was that I had never kissed a boy before. And I didn’t want
it to be taken away. I didn’t want my first to be taken away. And I was afraid that I didn’t know how to do it, to be honest. I’ve done it. You
know, I — maybe I practiced on like a teddy bear or something like that, but it was — you know, there was this sort of, oh, no, what if I don’t do
this right?
And he was so, so sweet about it. You know, I wasn’t conflicted with, oh, I’m an 11-year-old and he’s an adult, and this is creepy. The set didn’t
feel creepy. He’s not creepy, Louis Malle was not creepy to me. I didn’t have that feeling in the pit of my stomach. But I was afraid of not doing
it right.
And when he told me that it wouldn’t count as my first kiss, it was probably one of the most generous things an actor, who knows what he was
going through, you know?
AMANPOUR: Yes.
SHIELDS: So, I think it was kind of him. But going back to something you said with regards to going to sleep at night feeling good about it, I’m not
talking about the actual doing of the film. I stand by that film, and I stand by the choice to make it. I’m proud of it. And I — it didn’t scar
me. People don’t want to know — hear that, they want to hear that I’ve — I’m dredging up all this, you know, starring and — but what it — what did
— I did have to reclaim and find and go to sleep at night being proud of is the vitriol that was thrown at me.
The negativity, the banning of the movie, the pitchforks and the — you know, and pointing of it, how horrible my mother is and pornography, and it
was just — it was so — I was born and raised in Manhattan. I was more uncomfortable in those interviews being attacked. There’s one that’s not in
the film where I finally say to a woman, I’m so sorry, but I keep answering the same question, and I don’t think you want my answer.
I’ve have lost much respect for all those people in those positions because they wanted my answer to be different.
AMANPOUR: Exactly. And you talk about in an interview with “The New Yorker” just a few months ago. Because we do see a lot of interviews. And actually,
as a pressperson myself, all these years later, I cannot believe the way — and mostly men, but also some very prominent women, I mean, they were not
the kind of questions that I hope I would’ve ever asked about your sexuality, your virginity, your mother’s alcoholism, while she just sat
beside you.
Here’s what you said to “The New Yorker.” It just never ended. It made me lose so much respect for — excuse me — the press. There was no one place
that had even a modicum of integrity. To have Barbara Walters talk about my measurements? There was nothing intellectual about it. You saw these
adults, who are supposed to be the smart people in the world, be so lowest common denominator. I just became shut down to all of it. There’s that one
interview, where they’re reading their view of my mother’s face.
And I saw that in the — you know, that interview and you’re desperately trying to protect your mother.
SHIELDS: And it’s — I mean, that makes me cry, that clip. Because at the end I just say, she’s my momma. You know, and I’m — I’ve got girls, I’ve
got daughters that would — you know, that they would protect me and you just look at the love. And it was heartbreaking, you know, but it really
did, it set me on this course of, OK, I am not going to be undone by these people.
AMANPOUR: Did it ever occur to you that you — you know, you’re in America, which has a very prurient, you know, quality to a lot of the — a lot of
it. You know, people bound to, you know, react to what they thought was a child being exploited at an overly young age, in a highly sexualized and
adultified way. They talked about your mother is the typical stage mother.
Did you ever — was there ever a period where you kind of got it, why people were talking like that? Not that you agreed with it or you felt it.
SHIELDS: You know, not until much, much later and not until having children of my own. Again, I was very good at compartmentalizing. In order to stay
alive, I needed that and so far as I needed to keep my mother alive. And it was the two of us against the world. She was an alcoholic. And when you are
a child of an alcoholic, your vigilant. And I hardly had any time to think about anything else.
We made movies. I went to school. We made movies. I went to school. We afforded our life. And I didn’t — it wasn’t until much, much later. And in
the atmosphere around it all has changed.
AMANPOUR: Yes.
SHIELDS: You know, young modes are much more protected now than when they were when I was coming up. You know, the rules are very different now. I
think they have gotten better in some ways. There wasn’t social media when I was younger, so I don’t know how I — I don’t think I probably would have
survived social media as a young person, because I was also shielded from a lot of the negativity at the time by my mother.
But it wasn’t until later that I realized, oh, I could see — most of my movies, you couldn’t make today.
AMANPOUR: Yes. Do you think that — you know, now, we have intimacy coaches and all of these kinds of things designed to protect, you know, children
and others on set in what might be uncomfortable or compromising or intimate. And I know you went through a horrendous rape. You talked about
it in the — you know, in the documentary.
You talk about disassociating and separating, you know, your body from your mind and getting through a lot of this by doing that. I guess, do you feel
like you might not have had to go through so much of this external pain had there been an intimacy coach on any of your sets?
SHIELDS: No, because nothing ever happened on a set. I mean, I — and “Pretty Baby” was — I mean, after “Pretty Baby” I had only — I always had
body doubles. So, I was even more dissociative from the nudity and all the blue lagoon swimming and all of that is a body double. She was 30 too which
— 30 as well.
And so, I didn’t have that kind of discomfort on the set. Where I was too naive was, I was so protected. I was the mascot. I was the kid. And so,
when I found myself in such a shocking compromising position I just — I practically blacked out. And it — you know, it’s — there’s still guilt
surrounding all of that.
So, I don’t think it had anything to do with the way the operations were on set. This was much more a personal life.
AMANPOUR: And actually, you did say in the film that the being on set was your safe space, for many, many reasons. So, let’s fast forward, because we
started by talking about, you know, why you want to do this documentary and tell you story for, you know, the future generation and other girls,
including your own two girls. And there’s quite a lovely scene at the end where you’re around the dinner table with your husband, Chris, and you are
talking to them about, essentially, agency. If they want to post about themselves, no matter how and they feel comfortable, that’s fine. That was
somewhat different to kind of what happened to you, I guess, you’re saying. Here’s the clip, and then we can talk about it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHIELDS: OK. Then, let me ask you about TikTok and let me ask you about Instagram. When I see — OK, by the way —
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How is that different from —
SHIELDS: You’re like 16.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. All right.
SHIELDS: That’s my answer.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can’t post myself in a bikini and —
SHIELDS: And she’s posting herself.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I’m posting it myself.
SHIELDS: OK. So, there’s ownership of —
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
SHIELDS: Do you look gorgeous?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
SHIELDS: And you do too. Like — and you should feel that. Is that empowering?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
SHIELDS: OK. You’re creating your own self-confidence.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: So, their own self-confidence. And as you know, you know, there are all these stats today, because the expectations, the beauty standards
still are so — you know so heavily burdensome for so many women. The CDC found that teenage girls experienced record levels of violence, sadness and
suicide risks right now. Such an expectation for fillers and injections and, you know, operations to make yourself look a certain way.
SHIELDS: I was very interested by that conversation with them because they brought up euphoria and they brought up actresses who are in their late 20s
play 19-year-olds. And that was an interesting conversation too.
I just don’t — I’m not so sure that they really do realize the risks of having to want to live up to these filters and these faces and wanting to
plumper lips at, you know, 17, 16, 15. It’s very dangerous territory in my opinion. And all I can do is keep conversing with them about it.
AMANPOUR: Yes. And through this documentary, conversing with a wider group, I expect. Brooke Shields, thank you so much. An amazing life.
SHIELDS: Thank you. It’s an honor.
AMANPOUR: And as voting for Emmy nominations opens today, that documentary, “Pretty Baby,” is in the running.
Turning to the refugee crisis following another tragedy at sea this week, dozens died when their boat sank off the coast of Greece. The horrific
incident is a reminder of the dangers and the challenges they face in search of safety.
Now, a new documentary, “We Dare to Dream,” aims to be a beacon of hope. Oscar nominated director, Waad Al-Kateab, turned her lens on five refugee
athletes as they competed for a place in the Tokyo Olympics of 2020.
Waad and Joe Gebbia, one of the film’s producers and in the cofounder of Airbnb, join Hari Sreenivasan.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HARI SREENIVASAN, INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Christiane, thanks. Waad Al-Kateab and Joe Gebbia, thank you both for joining us.
First, Waad, I think that if people have heard about your work before, it was from a riveting documentary that won so many awards, “For Sama,” and I
wonder being a refugee yourself and covering this idea of athletes who are also refugees, why was that important to you?
WAAD AL-KATEAB, DIRECTOR, “WE DARE TO DREAM”: Thank you so much for this question. I think it’s — it was a process of discovery for me. When I
decided to do this film, you know, like as any director, when you done a very worldwide successful documentary, when people are talking about it
until this single day, you always want to do something after to be also important, also — you want to be also passionate about it.
And for me, you know, like when I started working on this, I was still emotionally stuck in Aleppo. I couldn’t accept that I’m no longer there
anymore. I couldn’t, like, even look forward. And for me, like this process of two years, working with these amazing athletes, learning from them, from
their experience, just like — was kind of a therapy for me. Like, I was able — after this — to able in life, to accept where I am, to be a proud
refugee, to feel like we belonged, not what I lost before but to these hundred million displaced people around the world.
SREENIVASAN: Joe, you are the co-founders of Airbnb, which has allowed you and continues to allow you to be a philanthropist in lots of different
causes. Why this documentary idea? What drew you to the topic in the first place?
JOE GEBBIA, PRODUCER, “WE DARE TO DREAM” AND CO-FOUNDER, AIRBNB: Well, thanks for having us, Hari. I’ve been involved in the refugee topic for
many years now, going back to the early days of Airbnb.org, where we (INAUDIBLE) our platform to house people in the greatest need, and that
could be after natural disasters or for those seeking asylum. And we’ve been very active in the space.
Most recently, we’ve helped house 100,000 Ukraine refugees in different parts of Europe and help house up to 80,000 Afghan refugees as they
resettled into the United States over the last couple years. So, this is a topic that I’ve been close to, and it’s really born from this idea that if
you have the ability to fall asleep at night feeling safe, then that means you have the responsibility to help those that don’t.
And so, when this opportunity came up to use entertainment, to advocate on behalf of refugees, for me, it was no-brainer, especially because the
stories are so rich, they’re so powerful and they’re so inspiring. And it’s the kind of story that just had to be told. And so, I couldn’t have been
luckier to pair up with Waad and our crews to bring this story to life.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I’d be very honored to be given the opportunity to represent all the underprivileged people around the world. We also need to
showcase that refugees can also be athletes who can compete at the highest level.
SREENIVASAN: Waad, I think what’s interesting is this is maybe one of the first times that you are seeing refugees as kind of multi-dimensional
humans, because more often than not Americans and I guess people over the world, they see refugees in a visual and a narrative frame of someone
standing in line for food, or someone who is emaciated or someone who is running with clothes on their back. And yet, we are watching taekwondo
athletes and we’re watching a runner. And, you know, one of the things that you mentioned early in the film was that filming was your way of fighting
back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AL-KATEAB: I got this plant. It will grow out of Aleppo. It’s still hard for me to realize that we survived it. Filming was my way of fighting back.
I film to protect my memories, to preserve the home I miss and to save the people I lost.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AL-KATEAB: I think the — from this very second in the film, like we’re breaking stereotypes. We’re showing people who we are, you know, not like
the labels that’s usually been like attached to us. And we’re finding representation, you know.
Like, yesterday, we were in a public school in New York with these amazing athletes. And one of the — like I think, 80 years old boy, just stood up
and said like, I want to translate to — because I speak Arabic. I came from Yemen. Like to see yourself represented in such an amazing way, like I
think that’s what we were fighting about for.
SREENIVASAN: Yes. How did you choose these different athletes?
AL-KATEAB: I mean, this is one of the most difficult decision that I would have take. We dig through like 56 scholarship holders, athletes, refugee
athletes, and we narrowed like across different filters and issues until we agreed on these five athletes.
For me, one of the stories is one of the athletes who didn’t make it, and that’s, for me, like was very important, people who are left behind. It’s
not just about this team, it’s about the legacy of this team. It’s about the hope that he shares with other people.
And then, it was really important to look at different stories. We did — I didn’t want to show the refugee as one picture, we’re different humans,
we’re different cultures, different like backgrounds, we’re different even characters. And even circumstances.
SREENIVASAN: Joe, were there athletes or storylines that resonated with you?
GEBBIA: Well, luckily, I get to be very involved in the process. I was able to fly to Doha, Qatar, where the refugee team staged before departing to
Tokyo for the actual games. And so, I was able to meet the athletes firsthand. I was able to be with the crew, with Waad, and others.
The ones that we end up featuring have incredible stories of perseverance, of pushing through the adversities that are unimaginable. And I think when
you see these stories play out in the film, you really see that underdog side. You see the will power that these athletes have to be members of
society, to participate in life, and in this case, the highest level of sport at the Olympics.
SREENIVASAN: Yes. Waad, one of the athletes you profiled is a female Iranian, Kimia Alizadeh Zonoozi, and she fled Iran, and she competed in
taekwondo for the Olympic refugee team. And she was already an accomplished athlete. Won medals on the international stage before. And there’s a
fantastic sort of tension that builds right at the first match that she has. Tell us a little bit about who she had to fight and what she was going
through in her head?
AL-KATEAB: Yes. I mean, that was one of the, I would say, like most emotional moments like maybe in my life, as well as terms — as — in terms
of like looking at someone as like situation. You know, it’s the Olympics. So, it’s every possible team, it’s each country, it’s these people home
countries. And you think, you know, like you’re going to like find them across the corner or like where you have coffee or something, and I myself
experienced this.
You know, when I saw the Syrian team coming in with the Syrian flag, and I was just like very heartbroken, you know, like I can be back for my
country, I can feel resented by this country. But then — and this flag. But then, you look at the refugee team and you see your own representation.
And like, you know, Kimia, for me, was like a role model. Like she’s my hero.
And, you know, at the first match when she has to go against her own country, against Iran, the country that she fled from and the athletes is
her best friend who they were together since they started taekwondo. The coach was her coach when she got the bronze medal. I think, you know, like
it’s just as much as it’s hard and challenging as much as you can see the strength and like there’s no one single one country like represent
(INAUDIBLE).
I think it’s just amazing. You know, it shows the reality to the point that even sometimes this challenge could be internal, could be between you on
your emotions, but you have to stand up. It’s not just like cliche of words, you know, like people sometimes feel they want to give up, and they
could give up sometimes, but it’s about what you want to do next, how can you stand up fight against even your own fear.
SREENIVASAN: Waad, one of the athletes that you profiled, the South Sudanese refugee —
AL-KATEAB: Angelina.
SREENIVASAN: — and her story was fascinating because she literally hadn’t seen her parents in so many years. And, you know, she had gone to a
training camp away from her little boy. And I mean, she had a lot on the line that she was kind running for.
ANGELINA JOLIE: I have been really training hard, sacrificing a lot, so that I can get one more chance.
AL-KATEAB: This is one story of so many people who like they face these difficulties in different way. And, you know, I was very connected to
Angelina because when I had to do my own journey from Turkey to the U.K., I had to leave my second daughter behind in Turkey for six months. And at
that time, I didn’t know that this would be six months, you know.
So, this could’ve been Jayden’s (ph) story like with Angelina’s son or her parent’s story. And I think, you know, it’s a lot of — like, it’s about
motherhood, it’s about love, it’s about not giving up, you know, to — in really different way. And I learned a lot from Angelina.
SREENIVASAN: You and high commissioner of refugee said in 2021, 89 million people were displaced. That’s the highest since World War II. And I think
it’s a hard idea and a number to visualize, considering that you’ve been kind of on different parts of this refugee journey. How do you convey
either the scale of the camps that people like Wyle (ph) are living in and he said he’s been there for more than eight years. I mean, that’s not just
a camp, that’s now a town in Jordon.
AL-KATEAB: Yes. I mean, that’s the reality. You know, we — you — we — you look back at the history and then you look now at what’s going on
around the world. And unfortunately, it shows that — like the number is going more and more, higher and higher.
And within the circumstances, like I think the most important thing is like the responsibility that governments and the public should take forward, you
know. It’s about what is the future holding for us, whether it’s Wyle (ph) in the refugee camp in Jordan, whether it’s Serb (ph) who became like a
British this year, like there’s a lot between this, and there’s so many other people which we don’t even know about them.
I think we should look forward and look about at what — how we can make this life be more like indignity, you know, and respectful way? How do we
want to be, like, facing if something happened with us today?
SREENIVASAN: Joe, there’s — you know, you mentioned that you’ve been involved in the refugee issue for a while. And how does this film, you
think, fit right now into kind of the global political climate where countries that have the means are trying to tighten their borders, whether
that’s in Europe, whether that’s here in the United States and elsewhere, there’s a little bit more nationalism and protectionism on the rise, and
here you are trying to say something explicitly different?
GEBBIA: Well, that’s one of the beautiful themes of sport is that it does transcend borders and cultures and divisiveness in men (ph) and politics.
And, you know, the Olympics, in and of itself, is a beacon of peace. Going back to — you know, when it started (ph) 1896. It was a time when warring
countries would, you know, put down their weapons, when, you know, it would be a time for the world to come together and celebrate, you know, the most
elite athletes on the planet.
And so, I hope this film is just a continuation of that. I hope it takes that spirit and is able to get into the living rooms of as many people as
we can reach around the world, onto as many devices as we can reach around the world to show this uplifting very human story.
SREENIVASAN: Waad, what do you want refugees that might be watching this film to gather from it?
AL-KATEAB: The main thing I want people to see themselves into this, especially refugees like in camps, in a situation where — like whether
they started their journey today or whether like they would have it with their — like they had already, whether like, for me, you know, I have two
little girls, like seven and six years old, I want them to see this and to look Kimia, to look at Wyle (ph), and feel inspired, feel like driven by
this.
And I want, you know, the world to look at this like refugees are not the issue, they are not the problem. We are the result of other issues, and
people should take really like deep look about what are these issues, whether it’s global warming, whether it’s like war and crimes and people
hate and sometimes even like clothes (ph) and, you know, like it’s a lot of things, but we’re not the problem, we’re not the issue. You know, we are
one of the consequences of so many other issues, and that’s why people should look and where they find different solutions.
SREENIVASAN: Waad, you described this process a little bit like therapy for you. How did it help?
AL-KATEAB: I mean, it was a big challenge for me, you know. Like I like was introduced, I would say, to the world after “For Sama.” But within that, I
was carrying on my shoulders a very heavy like responsibility, you know, like within everything happened in Syria, within my personal survival, I
needed to tell the world what crimes I’ve been witnessed, what things happened. I wanted to change something.
And for me, like, within this film, like I’m very proud. I can’t be even like more proud of myself that now, in my career, as a refugee director, I
was able to do a film like this in over like 10 countries with people who speaks so many languages with an amazing crew who supported me, and that’s
— I think, it’s another message, you know, like behind the film that refugee should be on the table, refugees should give and be able to give
what they can do.
SREENIVASAN: Yes. Joe, you’re a member the Olympic Refugee Foundation and their mission is in part to provide access to safe sport for a million
people. And I guess my question is, why is sport so important, access to sport? What do you think that does in the life of a refugee?
GEBBIA: Well, there’s many things that can be provided. I think sport is one of these things that is universal and acceptable and very well
understood. It’s a way to build community, it’s a way to build connections within these groups.
And, you know, I think it’s proven as ways to help deal with mental illness in certain cases. So, sport can be therapy in and of itself. You know, it’s
a way to really create connections, you know, anywhere in the world. And, you know, one soccer ball in one flat space is an easy way to bring people
together.
SREENIVASAN: Waad Al-Kateab and Joe Gebbia, director and producer of “We Dare to Dream,” thanks so much for joining us.
AL-KATEAB: Thank you so much for having me.
GEBBIA: Thank you, Hari.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: A timely focus on the endurance of the human spirit.
That is it for now. And if you ever miss our show, you can find the latest episode shortly after it airs on our podcast. Remember, you can always
catch us online, Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. Thank you for watching and goodbye from London.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)