What a Female VP Means for Women

AS WE'VE ALREADY REPORTED, SEEING VICE PRESIDENT KAMALA HARRIS MAKING HISTORY AS THE FIRST FEMALE OF BLACK AND SOUTH ASIAN HERITAGE TO HOLD THIS OFFICE IS SO INSPIRATIONAL.

AND CRACKED THE ULTIMATE GLASS CEILING OF COURSE.

GLORIA STEINEM, ONE OF THE FIRST TO CHALLENGE INTERSECTIONAL FEMINISM AND HOST OF THE PODCAST, OUR BODY POLITIC.

BOTH JOIN OUR MICHELLE MARTIN TO TALK ABOUT HOW MUCH THIS NEW VICE PRESIDENT CAN ACHIEVE.

THANKS CHRISTIAN.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BOTH BEING WITH US.

THANK YOU, MICHELLE.

THANK YOU.

YOU KNOW, IT'S A PLEASURE TO SPEAK WITH YOU BOTH.

EACH OF YOU ARE A TRAIL BLAZER IN YOUR OWN TIME AND IN YOUR OWN WAY.

SO I WANTED TO START BY ASKING YOU AS BRIEFLY AS YOU CAN, WHAT ARE YOUR TOP OF THE MIND REFLECTIONS ON THIS MOMENT?

I MEAN, ON THE ONE HAND, THIS COUNTRY FINALLY INAUGURATING A WOMAN AND A WOMAN OF COLOR AS VICE PRESIDENT.

ON THE OTHER HAND, THE LEGITIMACY OF THE VERY ELECTION CHALLENGED BY A MOB.

YOU KNOW, SOME OF WHOM ARE SPOUTING THE MOST RACIST, THE MOST ANTI-SEMITIC, MISOGYNISTIC VERSIONS OF OUR NATIONAL STORY.

SO I WANT TO ASK YOU, WHAT COMES TO MIND FIRST?

GLORIA STEINEM, I'LL START WITH YOU.

FIRST, WE'RE GETTING THE VIRUS OUT OF THE WHITE HOUSE.

I AM JUST SO, YOU KNOW, BECAUSE I HAVE FELT THE MOST ALIENATED EVER FROM THIS COUNTRY'S SO-CALLED LEADERSHIP AND OF COURSE, TRUMP WAS NOT ELECTED BY A MAJORITY VOTE.

HE REALLY WAS ILLEGITIMATE IN SO MANY WAYS.

SO I FEEL AS IF WE'RE RETURNING TO DEMOCRACY AND THEN ON TOP OF THAT, THAT WE HAVE KAMALA AS A VICE PRESIDENT WHICH HAS BEEN A LONG TIME COMING.

I THINK IN THE PUBLIC IMAGINATION, WOMEN AND PEOPLE OF COLOR HAVE IMAGINED THEMSELVES INTO THAT POSITION AT LEAST SINCE VICTORIA AND FREDERICK DOUGLASS AND CHISHOLM, WHO TOOK THE WHITE MALE OFF THE DOOR.

THAT WAS 50 YEARS AGO.

IT FEELS A LONG TIME COMING AND A GREAT RELIEF AND AS IF WE'RE BEGINNING TO HAVE AN ACTUAL DEMOCRACY IN WHICH EVERYONE CAN IMAGINE THEMSELVES IN A POSITION OF LEADERSHIP.

I WOULD ECHO WHAT GLORIA IS SAYING AND AMERICA HAS EFFECTIVELY ONLY HAD A REAL DEMOCRACY ONE HUMAN, ONE VOTE FOR A LITTLE OVER 50 YEARS.

PEOPLE LIKE ADAM SUHR WERE RIGHT ABOUT THIS.

WE HAVE ALWAYS SHUT THE DOOR ON CERTAIN POPULATIONS.

FIRST, EVERYONE WHO WAS NOT A LAND-OWNING WHITE MAN THEN SEQUENTIALLY OVER TIME, VARIOUS PEOPLE AND UP TO THE CIVIL RIGHTS ERA AND RIGHT NOW, I THINK WHAT WE'RE SEEING IN THIS COUNTRY IS THAT WHEN WOMEN OF COLOR LEAD, WHEN BLACK WOMEN LEAD, WE LEAD ON BEHALF OF THE BODY POLITIC.

WE LEAD ON BEHALF OF EVERYONE.

WE DON'T WANT TO LEAVE ANYONE BEHIND.

ACKNOWLEDGE THAT CERTAIN PEOPLE PUT EXCLUSIONARY LEADERSHIP AS THEIR PRIORITY.

TO HOLD IT FOR MYSELF AND PEOPLE WHO I LIKE OR PEOPLE WHO LOOK LIKE ME.

OTHER PEOPLE AND I THINK WITH STACY ABRAMS AS WELL AS FORMER SENATOR, VICE PRESIDENT-ELECT HARRIS ARE LOOKING AT INCLUSIVE LEADERSHIP.

HOW DO I LEAD ON BEHALF OF EVERYONE, INCLUDING PEOPLE I MIGHT NOT EVEN LIKE AND THAT'S WHAT WE NEED RIGHT NOW.

I RESPECT AND APPRECIATE THE FACT BOTH OF YOU ARE FOCUSING ON THE LARGER MOMENT, BUT I CAN'T GET PAST WHAT'S HAPPENING AT THE CAPITOL.

JUST LITERALLY, JUST DAYS AGO WHICH ADMITS MILITARY PRESENCE, THE OCCASION OF THIS INAUGURATION.

A LOT OF PEOPLE PROFESS SHOB TO BE SHOCKED BY WHAT HAPPENED.

ARE YOU?

NOT AT ALL.

I WENT OUT ON THE MORNING OFTO BE SHOCKED BY WHAT HAPPENED.

ARE YOU?

NOT AT ALL.

I WENT OUT ON THE MORNING OF JANUARY 6th TO INTERVIEW NON-VIOLENT PROTESTERS.

INCLUDING A BLACK MAN.

EVEN THOUGH THERE ARE STRONG RACIAL SIGNIFIERS BEHIND TRUMP'S SUPPORTERS THAT NOT ALL OF THEM ARE WHITE.

NOT ALL OF THE PROUD BOYS ARE WHITE.

AND SO I HAVE ALWAYS BELIEVED IN USING FIELD REPORTING AND DATA TO UNDERSTAND THIS COUNTRY.

IF YOU USE THOSE TOOLS, YOU WOULD UNDERSTAND THAT WHITE SUPREMACISTS ARE KEY POLITICAL ORGANIZERS IN AMERICAN LIFE AND HAVE BEEN SINCE DAY ONE AND THAT THE PRESS, WHICH WE LOVE SO DEARLY, MICHELLE, HAS SUPPRESSED A LOT OF REPORTING INCLUDING SOME OF MY OWN ON THE THINGS THAT WE NEEDED TO LOOK AT.

I FEEL REALLY HEARTBROKEN THAT THERE'S SO MUCH SHOCK IN OUR INDUSTRY OVER THINGS THAT COULD HAVE BEEN POINTED OUT FOUR YEARS AGO, FIVE YEARS AGO OR MORE.

THERE'S NOTHING I CAN DO ABOUT JOURNALISM AS AN INDUSTRY EXCEPT DO MY OWN BEST WORK AND SUPPORT OTHER PEOPLE WHO DO THEIR BEST WORK BUT WHEN YOU TALK TO BLACK AND LATINO REPORTERS AND OTHER REPORTERS OF COLOR, THEY'RE NOT SHOCKED.

WE'RE NOT SHOCKED.

GLORIA, WERE YOU SHOCKED BY WHAT HAPPENED AT THE CAPITOL?

THE MOB INVASION AT THE CAPITOL?

I HAVE TO SAY, I WAS A LITTLE SHOCKED BY ITS PROXIMITY TO MEMBERS OF CONGRESS.

BUT I WASN'T SHOCKED, I AGREE, ABOUT THE NATURE OF THE CROWD BECAUSE OVER THE LAST, I DON'T KNOW, 30 OR 40 YEARS, HOWEVER I'VE BEEN WANDERING AROUND THE COUNTRY SPEAKING, I WOULD COME BACK TO NEW YORK AND SAY, YOU KNOW, THERE ARE WHOLE PARTS OF ESPECIALLY RURAL PARTS OF THE COUNTRY WHERE COPS ARE AFRAID TO GO, WHERE THERE ARE THESE ARMED GROUPS THAT HAVE FARMS OR RANCHES WHO REALLY CONTROL THE TERRITORY AND PEOPLE WOULD SAY, OH, NO, THAT'S JUST A SMALL GROUP, BUT I FEEL, I AGREE THEY WERE ALWAYS PRESENT AND THE DIFFERENCE FOR ME WAS THAT NOW THEY WERE INVADING THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

JUST ONE LAST THING.

I THINK ALSO IT'S ABOUT NOT WOMEN OF COLOR HAVE CONSISTENTLY OVERINDEXED FOR OUR CONTRIBUTIONS TO THIS SOCIETY.

SO WHEN I'VE TALKED TO SEVERAL POLITICAL SCIENTISTS IN THE PAST, SOME OF THEM WERE LIKE, THE ONLY WAY AMERICA WILL CHANGE IS IF WHITE CENTRISTS, CONSERVATIVES CAN CONVINCE WHITE CONSPIRACYISTS.

I'M A BLACK WOMAN IN A MAJORITY BLACK NEIGHBORHOOD.

WE ARE ON THE SAVE OUR OWN BUTTS PLAN AND WHEN WE TRY TO SAVE OUR OWN BUTTS, VERY OFTEN, WE SUCCEED FOR THE GOOD OF ALL.

AND I THINK VERY OFTEN, THERE'S ALSO BEEN THIS PREPONDERANCE IN JOURNALISM AND POLITICS THINKING THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO CAN SOLVE ANYTHING ARE MEN AND THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO CAN SOLVE ANYTHING ARE WHITE PEOPLE AND ONE OF THE THINGS I LOVE ABOUT GLORIA, SHE'S ALWAYS HAD AN INTERSECTIONAL FEMINISM WHEN IT COMES TO RACE.

AND YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT RIGHT NOW, WE ARE DEALING WITH THE SITUATION THAT COULD UNDERMINE DEMOCRACY AS WE KNOW IT, NOT JUST RIGHT NOW, WHICH, OF COURSE, CLEARLY, IT IS, BUT IN PERPETUITY AND WE'VE GOT TO EMBRACE LEADERSHIP.

WE ARE IN THIS MOMENT WHEN THE PANDEMIC HAS BEEN PARTICULARLY HARD ON WOMEN.

WE'VE SEEN THERE ARE NEARLY TWO, MORE THAN TWO MILLION FEWER WOMEN IN THE LABOR FORCE IN DECEMBER THAN THERE WERE IN FEBRUARY.

WE SAW IN DECEMBER THERE WAS A NET LOSS OF 140,000 JOBS AND WOMEN LOST ALL OF THOSE JOBS.

WOMEN LOST 156,000.

MEN GAINED 160,000.

ALL THE NET, AND ON THE OTHER HAND, WE SAW GOING BACK TO THE MOB AT THE CAPITOL.

THERE WERE WOMEN THERE GOING BACK TO THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE CONSISTENTLY SUPPORTED DONALD TRUMP.

WOMEN HAVE BEEN A VERY SIGNIFICANT PART OF HIS COALITION, WHITE WOMEN, IT HAS TO BE SAID.

GLORIA, DO YOU WANT TO START, FIRST OF ALL, WHY IT IS THAT MORE WHITE WOMEN HAVEN'T SEEN DONALD TRUMP IN THE SAME WAY THAT WOMEN OF COLOR HAVE?

WELL, FIRST OF ALL, THERE ARE A PROPORTION OF WHITE WOMEN WHO ARE DEPENDENT ON THE IDENTITY AND INCOMES OF WHITE MEN, AND SO THEY ARE VOTING, ARGUABLY, THEIR INTEREST, NOT THEIR OWN INTEREST.

BUT THE IDEA OF THE OTHER AND OVERWHELMING ECONOMIC INTEREST OF THE MEN THEY DEPEND ON CERTAINLY INTERVENES AND WE HAVE TO ACCOUNT FOR THAT.

AND OF COURSE, AT THE SAME TIME, AS YOU POINT OUT, WOMEN ARE MORE VULNERABLE TO THE PANDEMIC BECAUSE WE'RE MORE LIKELY TO BE IN PEOPLE-RELATED JOBS, TO BE KINDS OF REASONS.

SO THE PROPORTIONS CHANGE, BUT NOTHING IS ABSOLUTE AND WE ALWAYS HAVE TO LOOK AT THE SITUATION AND THE INDIVIDUAL.

I THINK THAT WHEN WE LOOK AT THE POLITICAL HISTORY OF WHITE WOMEN, WE ARE LOOKING AT A LARGE DEMOGRAPHIC.

VERY DIVERSE WITHIN ITSELF, OF COURSE, BUT WHICH HAS USED OVER AND OVER AGAIN TO WIN OFFICE AND I WOULD THINK EVEN PHYLLIS WAS REALLY INVESTED IN THE PROXY POWER THAT SHE COULD HOLD.

SHE WAS A VERY POWERFUL WOMAN BUT SHE VEILED IT IN THIS IDEA SHE WAS HOLDING POWER, SORT OF, FOR WHITE MANHOOD AND THE THING IS, I'M ALL FOR EVERYONE GETTING POWER IN AMERICA EQUALLY.

I'M NOT OUT TO DISENFRANCHISE WHITE MEN BUT VERY OFTEN, THIS ARGUMENT MAKES IT SEEM AS IF BY SIMPLY GOING FOR OUR OWN EQUALITY THAT WE ARE ANTI-MALE, ANTI-WHITE, BUT JUST TO REINFORCE WHAT YOU SAID, MICHELLE, THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF ECONOMIC ANALYSES.

41% OF LATINAS WERE THE SOLE HOUSEHOLD INCOME AND OVERALL, ANOTHER INDEX FOUND THAT 67.1% OF NATIVE AMERICAN MOTHERS AND 44% OF ASIAN AMERICAN MOTHERS WERE PULLING DOWN AT LEAST 40% OF THE HOUSEHOLD INCOME.

SO PROXY POWER DOESN'T REALLY WORK THAT WELL FOR WOMEN OF COLOR.

WE'VE GOT TO DIY AND EVEN PEOPLE WITH PARTNERS.

I KNOW A LOT OF MIDDLE CLASS MARRIED BLACK WOMEN WHO ARE THE PRIMARY BREADWINNER AND THAT'S NOT UNUSUAL.

IT ALSO SAYS A LOT ABOUT THE WAYS IN WHICH BLACK MEN AND LATINO MEN ARE UNDERVALUED IN SOCIETY AS WELL.

SO I THINK THAT WHEN WE LOOK AT THE SITUATION, I LOOK AT VICE PRESIDENT HARRIS AS SOMEONE WHO IS, YOU KNOW, REALLY STANDING UP FOR AN IDEAL OF WOMANHOOD THAT CLAIMS ITS OWN POWER.

WHICH DOES NOT CLAIM PROXY POWER.

IT'S LIKE, SHE IS NOT COAT TAILING ON ANYONE.

SHE IS HER OWN WOMAN.

SHE'S STEPPING UP TO BAT AS HERSELF.

THAT IS A VERY STRONG MESSAGE TO WOMEN AND GIRLS EVERYWHERE AND MEN.

I WANT TO TALK MORE ABOUT WHAT MAKES A DIFFERENCE.

REMEMBER YEARS AGO WHEN THE LGBTQ COMMUNITY MADE SOME MAJOR ADVANCES IN LEGAL RIGHTS, SOME MAJOR SUPREME COURT DECISIONS AND A WOMAN, SHE ASKED THE LAWYER, YOU KNOW, WHY ISN'T IT THAT THIS IS MOVING SO QUICKLY WHEN I FEEL AS A WOMAN, WE'RE STILL FIGHTING FOR BASIC RECOGNITION, BASIC SORT OF RIGHTS AND HE SAID AS PART OF THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT, THERE WERE VERY FEW BLACK PEOPLE WHO SAID I DON'T WANT MY RIGHTS.

AND THERE ARE VERY FEW LGBTQ PEOPLE WHO STOOD UP AND SAID, I DON'T WANT MY RIGHTS.

WITH WOMEN, THEY DON'T AGREE.

IS THAT TRUE?

IT IS CERTAINLY RUE AND I THINK THERE'S AN ADDED ELEMENT WE NEED TO THINK ABOUT, WHICH IS THE FAMILY AND THE FACT THAT PROBABLY THE MEN, THE WHITE GUYS HAVE ALL BEEN AND GUYS IN GENERAL HAVE BEEN RAISED BY A WOMAN AND THEY ASSOCIATE FEMALE POWER WITH CHILDHOOD AND I NOTICE THIS IN THE TREATMENT OF HILLARY CLINTON AND OTHERS, SHIRLEY CHISHOLM, THERE WAS, ALWAYS SAID THAT THE BLACK POLITICAL ELITE IN BROOKLYN WAS MORE A PROBLEM FOR THOSE GUYS, MORE OF A PROBLEM FOR HER THAN RACE SOMETIMES, AT LEAST IN HER EARLY YEARS.

IT'S AS IF WHEN MEN SEE A POWERFUL WOMAN, THEY FEEL REGRESSED TO CHILDHOOD BECAUSE THAT WAS THE LAST TIME THEY SAW ONE.

THERE'S AN ADDED ELEMENT OF THAT.

WHAT WOULD MAKE THE DIFFERENCE?

WHAT MAKES A DIFFERENCE IS SEEING WOMEN IN AUTHORITIES BECOMING ACCUSTOMED TO WOMEN IN AUTHORITY.

IT'S COMPLEX AND IT DEPENDS ON OUR SITUATION BUT I THINK WE NEED TO REMEMBER THAT UNTIL MEN AND WOMEN ARE RAISING BABIES AND LITTLE CHILDREN EQUALLY, UNTIL THE FAMILY IS DEMOCRATIC, WE'RE NOT GOING TO HAVE DEMOCRACY.

HOW WOULD YOU LIKE TO SEE VICE PRESIDENT HARRIS WORKING WITH JOE BIDEN IN HER ROLE?

WHAT DO YOU WANT TO SEE HER DO?

WELL, VICE PRESIDENT HARRIS, VICE PRESIDENT-ELECT HARRIS, BASICALLY ALREADY TASKED WITH TAKING A HUGE AMOUNT OF RESPONSIBILITY.

ALREADY A BIDEN/HARRIS COVID-19 TASK FORCE AND I THINK SHE'S BEING POSITIONED WITHIN THE ADMINISTRATION AS A STRATEGIST.

NOT JUST A HANGERS ON OR SOMEONE WHO WAS ON THE TICKET AND FOR POLITICAL REASONS, BUT AS SOMEONE WHO'S A STRATEGIST.

STRATEGIST ON CRIMINAL JUSTICE ISSUES, STRATEGIST ON ECONOMICS, WOMEN'S ISSUES, WHICH ARE ALL ISSUES.

SHE KNOWS PLACES LIKE SILICON VALLEY, SO I'M SURE SHE'LL BE INVOLVED IN TALKS WITH INDUSTRIES.

FROM EVERYTHING I'M HEARING SO FAR, SHE IS POSITIONED TO BE A STRATEGIST WITHIN THE ADMINISTRATION WHICH IS WHAT SHE SHOULD BE.

WHAT DO YOU HOPE THE NEW GENERATION OF YOUNG WOMEN ACTIVISTS WILL FOCUS ON IN THE DAYS AHEAD?

WELL, LET ME REFRAME IT A NOT JUST ABOUT YOUNG WOMEN ACTIVISTS WHO I HAVE SO MUCH LOVE FOR, AND ONE OF MY TEENAGE GOD DAUGHTERS IS AN ACTIVIST AND HAS BEEN WRITTEN ABOUT FOR HER WORK BUT ALL, WHEN PRESIDENT TRUMP WAS ELECTED, I REMEMBER SO MANY PARENTS SAYING THAT THEIR TEENAGE GIRLS WERE SOBBING BECAUSE THE TAUNTS THAT THEY GOT FROM BOYS THEY THOUGHT WOULD GET SO MUCH WORSE IF SOMEONE SAID GRAB THEM BY THE P WAS IN THE WHITE HOUSE AND GIRLS OF ALL TYPES, ACTIVISTS OR NOT, ARE VERY AWARE OF SOCIAL ORDER AND I HOPE THAT THIS WILL BRING A RESTORATION OF SOCIAL ORDER WHERE THEY FEEL EMPOWERED TO BE THEIR OWN FABULOUS SELVES, SO THAT THE ACTIVISTS DO WHAT THE ACTIVISTS DO BUT GIRLS AND YOUNG WOMEN OF ALL TYPES GET TO BE THEMSELVES.

GLORIA, WHAT ABOUT YOU?

WHAT DO YOU HOPE THIS RISE IN GENERATION OF YOUNG WOMEN ACTIVISTS WILL FOCUS ON?

WHEN YOU WERE SAYING THAT, I WAS THINKING, WHEREVER I AM IN THIS COUNTRY OR IN OTHER COUNTRIES, WHAT I HEAR CHILDREN SAYING THE MOST OFTEN IN DIFFERENT LANGUAGES IS SOME VERSION OF, YOU ARE NOT THE BOSS OF ME.

AND IT MAKES ME SO HAPPY BECAUSE I THINK SOMEHOW BORN WITH THIS, NOT SAYING THEY'RE GOING TO BOSS AROUND SOMEONE ELSE, ALTHOUGH WE MAY NEED TO WORRY ABOUT THAT, BUT THE FIRST THING THEY SAY IS IN HINDI, IN FRENCH, YOU ARE NOT THE BOSS OF ME.

AND THAT, TO ME, IS THE BASIS OF DEMOCRACY.

THANK YOU BOTH SO MUCH FOR SPEAKING WITH US TODAY.

MICHELLE, IT'S SUCH A PLEASURE, THANK YOU.

YES, MICHELLE, SO WONDERFUL TO SEE YOU.

I'M SO GRATEFUL TO SEE YOU.

THANK YOU, THANK YOU.