“What Are Children For?” Why Millennials and Gen-Zers Aren’t Having Kids

>>> AS REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS PLAY A CENTRAL ROLE IN THE UPCOMING ELECTION.

FORMER PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP FAILED TO OFFER SPECIFICS ON HOW HE WOULD MAKE CHILDCARE MORE AFFORDABLE.

WHEN ASKED AS AN ECONOMIC FORUM IN NEW YORK.

THIS IS WHEN A TIME AROUND THE WORLD ARE INCREASINGLY CONSIDERING WHETHER TO HAVE CHILDREN AT ALL.

WE EXPLORE THE REASONS FOR THIS GLOBAL TREND IN A NEW BOOK, WHAT OUR CHILDREN FOR.

WITH INFLUENCE AND CHOICE.

>> THANK YOU.

AND THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> IT IS GREAT TO BE HERE.

>> WHAT THAT INTRIGUED ME ABOUT YOUR BOOK.

IT SEEMS THAT IN THIS COUNTRY FOR A LOT OF REASONS.

SOME OF THEM ARE POLITICAL.

AND DECLINING BIRTH RATE AND PEOPLE HAVING FEWER KIDS.

THAT IS A BIG THING AND A POLITICAL ISSUE.

BUT YOU ARE TELLING US THAT THIS IS ACTUALLY A WORLDWIDE PHENOMENON.

ANASTASIA HOW DO WE KNOW THIS AND HOW IS THAT IS?

>> FOR RACHEL AND MYSELF WE WANT TO DO TAKE OUR INVESTIGATION AND WHY ARE PEOPLE NOT HAVING KIDS.

THE REAL LIVING DELIBERATIONS AND THE CONCERNS AND THE EXPERIENCES THEY ARE HAVING.

WHAT WE FOUND WAS ESPECIALLY FOR LIBERALS AND PROGRESSIVES.

FROM AROUND THE WORLD, WE HAVE FORCES THAT ARE ENCOURAGING THEM TO DELAY THINKING ABOUT THE QUESTION OF CHILDREN.

AND IN FACT, ALIENATING THEM FROM THE PROSPECT OF HAVING CHILDREN.

THESE INCLUDED NARRATIVES OF PERSONAL, ROMANTIC AND PROFESSIONAL SUCCESS.

AND THEY ALL DEMAND THAT WE REACH A CERTAIN TYPE OF'S LEVEL OF READINESS.

STABILITY IN OUR CAREER, AND CERTAINTY IN OUR ROMANTIC RELATIONSHIPS.

BEFORE WE EVEN THE ASK THE QUESTION OF CHILDREN.

THE SAME TIME WE HAVE ETHICAL PRESSURES.

ESPECIALLY THOSE THAT ARE COMING OUT AS A CLIMATE CHANGE DEBATES.

THEY ARE MAKING US QUESTION WHETHER OR NOT WE CAN SO MUCH AS TO JUSTIFY HAVING CHILDREN.

GIVEN THE PRESENT REALITY.

>> I THINK PARTICULARLY THE PEOPLE IN THE UNITED STATES HAVE A COMMON CONCEPTION.

IF THERE WAS MORE SOCIAL SUPPORT PERHAPS FROM THE GOVERNMENT.

AND WITH MORE SUBSIDIZED CHILDCARE.

FOR MORE EXTENSIVE AND MORE SUPPORTIVE MATERNITY LEAVE AND FAMILY LEAVE.

PEOPLE WOULD HAVE KIDS.

SO BASICALLY IT IS AN ECONOMIC ISSUE AT THE HEART OF IT.

BUT YOU ARE RESEARCH INDICATES THAT EVEN IN COUNTRIES THAT HAVE THOSE THINGS.

BIRTHRATES ARE DECLINING.

CAN YOU GO INTO THAT MORE?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

COUNTRIES LIKE THE NORDIC STATES .

THEY HAVE EXTENSIVE SUPPORT FOR FAMILIES.

AND MATERNITY LEAVE, IT IS OVER ONE YEAR.

AND EVEN A CHILD TAX CREDITS.

PLACES LIKE SOUTH KOREA PEOPLE ARE STILL NOT HAVING CHILDREN AT THE RATES THAT ONE MIGHT EXPECT.

WHICH HE DOES PUT PRESSURE ON THE NARRATIVE IN THE UNITED STATES.

IT IS JUST ECONOMICS.

TO BLAME FOR PEOPLE NOT HAVING CHILDREN TODAY.

>> CAN I ASK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT YOUR METHODS.

HOW DID YOU FIGURE OUT?

ESPECIALLY IN COUNTRIES THAT ARE SO DIFFERENT?

>> THERE IS MORE AND MORE EMPIRICAL RESEARCH INTO THE TYPE OF REASONS THAT PEOPLE WOULD GIVE FOR WHY THEY DO NOT HAVE KIDS.

THE WAY THEY ARE THINKING ABOUT NOT HAVING CHILDREN.

WE HAVE FOUND THAT MANY PEOPLE DO NOT NECESSARILY KNOW WHY THEY'RE NOT HAVING KIDS.

BUT THE QUESTION IS SO FRAUGHT AND DIFFICULT TO DETERMINE.

SO IT WAS VERY IMPORTANT FOR US TO CONDUCT BOTH QUALITATIVE.

AND OPEN ENDED QUESTIONS AND SURVEYS THAT WE HAVE DONE WITH HUNDREDS OF MILLENNIAL'S.

AND WE FOLLOWED UP WITH SEVERAL DOZEN INTERVIEWS WHERE WE ENGAGED IN CONVERSATIONS.

WHERE WE COULD EXPLORE THE NARRATIVES, THE EXPLANATIONS AND THE STORIES THAT PEOPLE WERE GIVING.

THAT WERE RELATED TO THIS QUESTION.

>> AS WE'RE SPEAKING NOW WE ARE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE POLITICAL ELECTION IN THE NIGHT STATES.

JD VANCE HAS BEEN GOING ON RECORD SAYING THAT PEOPLE WHO HAVE KIDS SHOULD HAVE MORE OF A STAKE IN THE FUTURE.

THEY SHOULD PROBABLY HAVE MORE SAY OVER THE POLICY OF THE COUNTRY.

AND HE USED THIS PHRASE CHILDLESS CAT LADIES.

THE DEMOCRATIC IS RUN BY CHILDLESS CAT LADIES.

THEY ARE SELFISH AND WEIRD IS THE IMPLICATION.

COULD YOU ENGAGE WITH THAT?

IS THERE ANY KERNEL OF TRUTH TO THAT?

>> I THINK THERE IS A VERY PERVASIVE NARRATIVE.

YOUNG PEOPLE TODAY ARE NOT HAVING CHILDREN BECAUSE THEY ARE SELFISH OR IMMATURE.

BUT WHAT WE FOUND IS ACTUALLY THE STANDARDS FOR READINESS.

FOR HAVING A FAMILY ARE SO HIGH.

AND DOES SO IN DETERMINANT TODAY.

ACTUALLY IT IS ALMOST AT THE BAR FOR MATURITY IS SET TOO HIGH.

PEOPLE FEEL THEY HAVE TO CHECK OFF A VERY LONG LIST OF TWO DUES BEFORE THEY WILL FEEL READY TO SETTLE DOWN AND START A FAMILY.

THEY FEEL THEY NEED TO A VERY EXTENSIVE SAVINGS.

AND THEY NEED TO BE VERY ESTABLISHED IN THE CAREER.

AND THEY HAVE FOUND A MAXIMUM COMPATIBLE PARTNER.

AND THEY HAVE ACHIEVED A CERTAIN LEVEL OF SELF-DISCOVERY AND SELF FULFILLMENT.

BEFORE THEY COULD EVEN CONTEMPLATE THE QUESTION OF WHETHER OR NOT THEY WOULD WANT CHILDREN.

>> WHY DO PEOPLE THINK THAT?

>> AS A RESPONSE TO BOTH THE REALITY AND THE REPRESENTATION.

THE MILLENNIAL'S, AND PARTICULARLY, ECONOMICALLY PRECARIOUS.

WE HAVE A TYPE OF BUNKER MENTALITY.

AND PRECISELY THAT GENERATION THAT AS WE WERE SAYING.

THEY WERE HOLDING THEMSELVES UP ALMOST TOO HIGH OF A STANDARD OF MATURITY.

AS OPPOSED TO THIS NARRATIVE OF THEM AS CAREFREE, IMMATURE AND SELFISH.

AND IT IS ALSO WORTH ADDING THAT WHEN PEOPLE WERE SURVEYED TODAY.

AND IF THEY WERE ASKED WHAT OTHER TYPE OF CONDITIONS FOR FILLING LIFE?

MANY THINGS WERE NAMED AS HIGH PRIORITIES THAT ARE NOT CONSISTENT WITH WHAT WE THINK IS SELFISHNESS.

PEOPLE RAKE CASH RATE POLITICAL ACTIVISTS.

TO LEAD A FULFILLING LIFE.

IT IS CHILDREN IN PARTICULAR THAT WE ARE FINDING NOW.

SQUARELY AT THE BOTTOM OF THAT LIST.

>> WHAT IS REALLY THE DOMINANT REASON?

AND YOU WOULD SAY THAT IT IS NOT REALLY THE MONEY OR THAT IT IS EXPENSIVE AND EXHAUSTING.

SAYING WITH A PERSON WITH TWO KIDS IN COLLEGE.

BUT IS IT LIKE PEOPLE FEEL THAT THE BAR FOR BEING A PARENT IS REALLY HIGH.

AND ALSO THAT IT INTERFERES WITH YOUR PERSONAL DEVELOPMENT.

IS THAT REALLY AT THE CORE OF IT?

>> I THINK BOTH OF THOSE THINGS POINT TO SOMETHING REALLY FUNDAMENTAL.

WHETHER OR NOT YOU BECOME A PARENT IS SOMETHING THAT YOU HAVE TO TO CHOOSE AND JUSTIFY.

IN A WAY THAT YOU DID NOT NECESSARILY BEFORE.

FROM MY MOTHER'S GENERATION, IT WAS ALMOST CONSIDERED A GIVEN.

SHE WOULD WANT TO BECOME A PARENT.

WAS AN OPT OUT SITUATION FORCES THAT OPT IN.

WHETHER FOR YOUNG PEOPLE TODAY THEY FEEL LIKE THEY NEED TO BE ABLE TO GIVE A REASON FOR WHY THEY WANT TO HAVE CHILDREN.

AND HAVE ALL THAT FIGURED OUT.

ONLY GETS EXACERBATED BY THE SCRIPTS AND NARRATIVES THAT ARE SO PERVASIVE TODAY.

THAT ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO DELAY AND POSTPONE THE DECISION.

>> IS IS A FUNCTION OF PEOPLE THAT ARE EDUCATED AND LIBERAL ELITES?

>> IN FACT, THIS IS BEING MORE PERVASIVE ACROSS SECTORS OF SOCIETY.

WE SEE IN LOWER SOCIOECONOMIC STATUS GROUPS, PEOPLE ARE TELLING HAVING CHILDREN LONGER THAN BEFORE.

I THINK THERE IS A TENDENCY TO ASSUME THAT THIS IS JUST A PROBLEM OF THE ELITE.

BUT IN FACT, IT IS A GLOBAL PHENOMENON.

IT IS SEEN ACROSS SECTORS OF SOCIETY.

>> AMONG RELIGIOUS PEOPLE, IS THAT ALSO THE CASE?

>> THIS IS DEFINITELY A PHENOMENON OF SECULAR SOCIETY.

AND WHAT IS INTERESTING IS THAT SPECIFICALLY IN THE U.S.

CONTEXT.

NOT ONLY HAS THIS BECOME AN ISSUE THAT IS DIVIDED ACROSS THE SECULAR AND RELIGIOUS LIVES.

BUT WE ALSO SING IT INCREASINGLY POLITICIZED.

IF THERE WAS A POINT IN THE NOT SO DISTANT PAST.

WHERE REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS ARGUED ABOUT WHO IS THE PARTY OF FAMILY VALUES.

TODAY, NO SUCH ARGUMENT EXISTS.

IN FACT, WE SEE THAT PEOPLE WOULD THINK THAT INCREASINGLY.

TO BE ON THE LEFT MEANS TO HAVE A TYPE OF DISTANCE.

AND EVEN THE QUESTION OF CHILDREN.

AND WE SEE THAT BUT BECAUSE OF EVERY TYPE OF POLICY FAILURE, A WILLINGNESS TO THREATEN THE ABSENCE OF REPRODUCTION IN ITS FACE.

WHETHER IT IS CLIMATE CHANGE, THE REPEAL OF ROE VERSUS WADE OR THE LACK OF SOCIAL WELFARE PROVISIONS.

WE ALSO SEE AN INCREASED WILLINGNESS TO BE, QUITE NEGATIVE ON CHILDREN.

AND PERHAPS IN OUR PUBLIC SPACES.

I WAS RECENTLY ASKED BECAUSE WE ARE ENGAGED IN THIS TOPIC .

TO COMMENTED THAT PUBLIC SPACES WE SEE MORE AND MORE PEOPLE ASKING FOR CHILD FREE ZONES.

WHETHER IN RESTAURANTS OR CELEBRATING AT WEDDINGS.

>> THIS IS A QUESTION THAT IS MOSTLY RELEVANT TO THE UNITED STATES.

BUT THERE WAS A SEISMIC EVENT WHEN THE SUPREME COURT OVERTURNED NATIONWIDE ACCESS TO ABORTION.

BY OVERTURNING ROE VERSUS WADE.

DO YOU THINK IT HAS AN IMPACT ON THE WAY THE PEOPLE HAVE ON HAVING CHILDREN?

>> YES.

I THINK THE DECISION HAS HAD A COUPLE OF DIFFERENT IMPACTS.

ONE IMPORTANT ONE IS THAT IT CEDED A WEARINESS.

ESPECIALLY AMONG LIBERALS AND PROGRESSIVES.

EVEN ABOUT DISCUSSING THE QUESTION WHETHER OR NOT TO HAVE CHILDREN.

IT HAS MADE THIS CONVERSATION, OVERALL CONSERVATIVELY CODED.

SUCH THAT IT HAS MADE IT EVEN HARDER FOR LIBERALS AND PROGRESSIVES TO EMBRACE THE CHOICE.

TO HAVE CHILDREN.

BUT WE THINK THAT IT IS ACTUALLY QUITE A NEGATIVE DEVELOPMENT.

IT ONLY ALLOWS THE RIGHT TO SET THE AGENDA FOR WOMEN'S REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS AND THEIR CHOICES.

AND YET ANOTHER WAY.

>> ANOTHER INTERESTING POLITICAL DEVELOPMENT IS THAT THE REPUBLICAN NOMINEE FOR PRESIDENT, FORMER PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP HAS PREVIOUSLY BRAGGED ABOUT APPOINTING THE JUSTICES AND NOMINATING THE JUSTICES.

WHO THEN, OVERTURNED ROE VERSUS WADE.

BUT IN RECENT DAYS HE HAS COME OUT STRONGLY IN FAVOR OF A MAXIMUM VIEW OF IN VITRO FERTILIZATION.

WHICH HAS ALSO BEEN IN LEGAL JEOPARDY IN SOME PLACES.

BECAUSE OF THE DECISION HE SAID THAT THE GOVERNMENT IS GOING TO PAY FOR IT AND TO MAKE PRIVATE INSURANCE COMPANIES PAY FOR IT.

HE HAS WAFFLED ON HIS PREVIOUS STANCE ABOUT ABORTION RESTRICTIONS.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT?

>> YEAH.

BUT I THINK HE PANICKED A LITTLE BIT ABOUT HAVING THE DECISION PENDING ON HIM.

HE UNDERSTANDS IT IS A REAL THREAT TO HIS ELECTORAL PROSPECTS IN NOVEMBER.

BUT ALSO I THINK WITH IVF IN PARTICULAR.

HE IS TRYING TO STAKE OUT A POSITION THAT IS PROFAMILY.

BUT ALSO PROGRESSIVE.

>> WHICH IS A DIFFICULT NEEDLE TO THREAD.

IS THERE IS SOME MIDDLE GROUND BETWEEN A MAXIMUM POSITION.

AND ALSO ONE THAT SAYS KIDS ARE AN EXPENSIVE HOBBY.

IS THERE SOME MIDDLE GROUND BETWEEN THOSE TWO?

>> CERTAINLY.

AND THE WAY THAT I HEAR THAT QUESTION.

WHETHER OR NOT THERE IS POSSIBILITY FOR LIBERALS AND PROGRESSIVES.

FOR THOSE THAT ARE STAUNCHLY IN SUPPORT OF REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS FOR WOMEN.

TO EMBRACE HAVING CHILDREN AS AN UNCONDITIONAL GOOD.

OR SOMETHING THAT IS INHERENTLY GOOD.

NOT JUST A PROJECT THAT WE SHOULD TOLERATE.

LIKE WE TOLERATE PEOPLE'S HOBBIES.

I THINK IT IS POSSIBLE.

ONE KEY IS TO NOTICE.

ALL OF THE TYPES OF GOALS THAT ARE OBJECTIFIED TO THE LEFT.

IF IT IS MITIGATING CLIMATE CHANGE OR INTRODUCING LASTING SOCIAL CHANGE.

IF IT IS HEALING OUR POLITICAL SYSTEM.

OR CRATING WELFARE IN THE NATION.

ALL OF THESE PROJECTS AND PURSUITS THAT ARE IN DEFINITION OF THE LEVEL AND LIBERAL AND PROGRESSIVE ROBUST HUMAN FUTURE.

THEY INCREASE IT BY A HUMAN FUTURE.

THE INCREASE AND SUPPOSE THAT PEOPLE WILL DO THEIR SHARE IN BRINGING ABOUT FUTURE GENERATIONS.

THAT MEANS FOR SOME PEOPLE THAT HAVE BIOLOGICAL CHILDREN.

IT ALSO MEANS THAT OTHER PEOPLE WILL BE CONTRIBUTED TO THE HUMAN FUTURE IN OTHER WAYS.

THEY WILL BE POLITICAL ACTIVISTS, TEACHERS, JOURNALISTS, MENTORS, GODPARENTS.

SO THERE ARE MANY WAYS OF DOING THAT.

BUT I THINK ONCE WE NOTICED THAT HAVING CHILDREN IS THE BEDROCK OF A ROBUST HUMAN FUTURE.

NO MATTER HOW INEXACT WE ENVISION IT.

THAT IS THE KEY TO THE MIDDLE GROUND THAT YOU ASKED ABOUT.

THAT IS THE KEY TO REALIZING.

EMBRACING NOT JUST TOLERATING BUT FULLY EMBRACING THE CHOICE TO HAVE CHILDREN.

AND TO RAISE THEM.

IT IS NOT INCONSISTENT WITH DEFENDING WOMEN'S RIGHT TO CHOOSE THEIR OWN REPRODUCTIVE AGENDAS FOR THEMSELVES.

>> IS THIS A PROBLEM THAT WE DO HAVE AN INCREASINGLY LARGE COHORT OF PEOPLE.

THAT ARE INTERESTED IN HAVING KIDS.

>> FROM OUR PERSPECTIVE.

WHAT IS A PROBLEM IS NOT AFFECTED BIRTHRATES ARE DECLINING.

BUT IT IS THE FACT THAT WHEN YOU THINK OF PEOPLE ARE HAVING DIFFICULTIES NAVIGATING THE CHOICE WHETHER TO HAVE CHILDREN.

BECAUSE OF THE DOMINANCE OF THE TYPES OF NARRATIVES OF WHAT IT MEANS TO BE A SUCCESSFUL ADULT.

WHAT IT MEANS TO BE ETHICALLY AND MORALLY AND POLITICALLY RESPONSIBLE TODAY.

AND WHAT THEY CAUSE IS A TYPE OF PROCRASTINATING ATTITUDE WITH A VIEW TO CHILDREN.

WITH THE RESULT OF WITH THE DECISION TO HAVE CHILDREN WILL END UP BEING MADE FOR INCREASINGLY MANY PEOPLE.

AS OPPOSED TO BEING MADE BY THEM.

AND THAT, WE THINK IS A PROBLEM.

WE THINK THAT YOUNG WOMEN TODAY THAT ARE NOT FEELING COMFORTABLE DISCUSSING THEIR FERTILITY.

IT IS A PROBLEM.

WE THINK THAT PEOPLE ASSUMING THAT YOU HAVE TO HAVE ALL OF YOUR PARTS OF YOUR LINES LINED UP BEFORE HAVING CHILDREN.

THAT COULD BE A PROBLEM.

AND WE THINK THAT THERE IS A PREPONDERANCE OF ETHICAL ARGUMENTS.

KIND OF UP IN THE AIR THAT MAKE US FEEL THAT PERHAPS HAVING CHILDREN IS A LUXURY CONSUMER CHOICE.

BUT NOT SOMETHING THAT IS MORALLY RESPONSIBLE ADULT THAT IS SOMEWHERE LEFT OF CENTER.

THAT YOU CAN HAPPILY AND PROUDLY EMBRACE.

WE THINK THAT IS A PROBLEM.

THAT IS WHAT WE ARE OFFERING IN OUR INTERVENTION.

>> THE FACT THAT LIBERALS AND PROGRESSIVES ARE SO POSITIONED TO EMBRACE THE POSITIVE JUSTIFICATION FOR FAMILIES.

IT ONLY MAKES ESTABLISHING THOSE TYPES OF SOCIAL PROGRAMS THAT THEY TAKE SO SERIOUSLY.

AND THEY THINK THEY ARE SO IMPORTANT.

IT IS EVEN MORE DIFFICULT TO IMPLEMENT.

YOU CANNOT SAY WHY HAVING FAMILIES IS HARD TO DEFEND FOR THE CHILD TAX CREDIT, FOR EXAMPLE.

>> DO YOU HAVE A SOLUTION?

>> I THINK WE HAVE TWO THINGS.

THE FIRST IS TO NORMALIZE HAVING CONVERSATIONS ABOUT CHILDREN.

BY THAT, HAVING CONVERSATIONS IN ONE'S PEER GROUP.

AND IMPORTANTLY WITHIN ROMANTIC RELATIONSHIPS.

HAVING THEM EARLY AND CONFIDENTLY.

SO THAT TYPE OF THINKING CAN ACTUALLY MAKE A DIFFERENCE AND ENABLE PEOPLE TO PLAN THEIR LIVES.

THE SECOND THING I WOULD LIKE TO SEE.

IN OUR EDUCATIONAL ENVIRONMENTS, GIVING US AN OPPORTUNITY TO RAISE THE DISCUSSION.

IT IS THE QUESTION OF THE WORTH OF HUMAN LIFE.

IN THE PRESENT AND IN THE FUTURE.

>> WE SEE INCREASED DOUBT.

WITH FILM AND NOVELS REPRESENTATION GIVE US AN IMAGE OF OURSELVES AS INCREDIBLY SELF ABSORBED AND SELFISH.

AN IMAGE THAT REALLY DOES RAISE THE QUESTION DO WE DESERVE A HUMAN FUTURE?

I WOULD LIKE TO SEE YOUNG PEOPLE TODAY TO GIVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO THINK THROUGH THESE CHALLENGES.

>> AND THANK YOU BOTH SO MUCH FOR SPEAKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING US.

>> THANK YOU.