What the Democratic Party Got Wrong

>>> WHILE THE WORLD IS WONDERING WHAT A SECOND DONALD TRUMP TERM WILL BRING, MANY ARE FALLING BACK ON THEIR MEMORIES OF TRUMP, THE CHAOS AGENT DURING HIS FIRST TERM.

JONATHAN MARTIN HAS WRITTEN ALL ABOUT THAT TURBULENT TIME AS CO- AUTHOR OF THIS WILL NOT PASS.

FOR POLITICO AND HE JOINS WALTER ISAACSON TO DISCUSS THE IMPLICATIONS OF TRUMP'S RE- ELECTION AND WHAT WENT WRONG FOR THE DEMOCRATS.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE, AND JONATHAN MARTIN.

WELCOME BACK TO THE SHOW.

PRECINCT BY PRECINCT AND AFTER THIS ELECTION WAS THAT DEMOCRATS DON'T HAVE A HARRIS OR BIDEN PROBLEM, THEIR CHALLENGES ARE FAR DEEPER.

THEY HAVE A VOTER PROBLEM.

WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT?

>> A PROJECTION FROM THE ELECTORATE.

IT'S AKIN TO A COMPANY THAT'S TRYING TO SELL A PRODUCT AND THE CUSTOMERS DON'T WANT TO BUY THE PRODUCT.

WHEN PROCTER & GAMBLE OR APPLE OR WHOEVER ELSE FACES THAT CHALLENGE, BOY, THEY GO BACK TO THE DRAWING BOARD AND THEY TRY TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO GIVE THE CUSTOMERS WHAT THEY WANT AND THAT IS THE ONUS ON DEMOCRATS NOW.

THEY ARE BEING REJECTED BY A LARGE SWATH OF THIS COUNTRY.

THE WORKING CLASS, FRANKLY, OF AMERICA, ACROSS RACIAL LINES, AND WALTER, THAT WAS THE FOUNDATION OF THE DEMOCRATIC COALITION FOR MUCH OF THE 20th CENTURY, AS YOU KNOW, AND TO BE REJECTED BY THESE VOTERS WHO HAVE FAVORED A BILLIONAIRE, YOU KNOW, WHO IS COZYING UP WITH FELLOW BILLIONAIRES IS HUMILIATING FOR DEMOCRATS, BUT IT DOES SHOW TO THEM THAT THEY DO HAVE TO FIND THE MESSAGE THAT'S MORE APPEALING TO THE WORKING-CLASS CORE OF THIS COUNTRY.

THE SIMPLY CANNOT WIN -- LET ALONE FIND 51 SENATE SEATS WITH SUBURBANITES.

THERE'S JUST NOT ENOUGH OUT THERE.

>> YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT THE WORKING-CLASS.

WHAT TYPE OF ISSUES HAVE FAILED THE DEMOCRATS IN TRYING TO APPEAL TO THE WORKING CLASS?

IT USED TO BE THE PARTY OF THE WORKING-CLASS.

>> IT WAS THE PARTY OF THE WORKING MAN FOR DECADES AND I THINK, BUT HERE IS THE COMING FIGHT.

THE BERNIE SANDERS CROWD ON THE WE WERE NOT SUFFICIENTLY FOCUSED ON ECONOMIC POPULIST MESSAGE, THE PEOPLE VERSUS THE POWER.

WE HAVE TO GET BACK TO OUR POPULIST ROOTS AND DRIFT AWAY FROM THIS KIND OF PROTO- CORPORATISM, MUCH MORE FRIENDLY TO A HIGH INCOME EARNER.

OTHER FOLKS IN THE PARTY ARE GOING TO SAY LET'S BE HONEST, CULTURE AND IDENTITY AND WE ARE TALKING TOO MUCH.

TO SOUND LIKE THE FACULTY CLUB TO BORROW A LINE FROM -- AND WE ARE USING LANGUAGE THAT'S ALIENATING TO THESE FOLKS WHO ARE NOT AS FIXATED ON IDENTITY AS THE ELITES IN AMERICA ARE AND THAT IS THE CHALLENGE FOR US.

THAT'S THE COMING DEBATE.

ECONOMICS OR IDENTITY, FRANKLY.

>> LET'S UNPACK BOTH OF THOSE AND START WITH THE ECONOMICS.

YOU MENTIONED BERNIE SANDERS.

>> YEAH.

>> AFTER THE ELECTION, HE SHOULD SAY HE SAID IT SHOULD COME AS NO SURPRISE THAT THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY, WHICH HAS ABANDONED WORKING-CLASS PEOPLE CLASS HAS ABANDONED THEM.

FIRST, IT WAS THE WHITE WORKING CLASS, NOW IT'S LATINO AND BLACK WORKERS, AS WELL.

SHOULD THE DEMOCRATS HAVE FOUGHT AGAINST CORPORATE AND GREED AND OTHER THINGS AND FOUGHT FOR THE WORKING-CLASS MORE?

>> WELL, I THINK THAT IS THE CRITIQUE.

FROM BERNIE SANDERS WAS MOSTLY A GOOD SOLDIER DURING THE CAMPAIGN BUT IS HONESTLY TELLING US HOW HE REALLY FEELS.

I THINK THERE ARE CLEARLY AREAS WHERE DEMOCRATS COULD HAVE DONE MORE TO GO AFTER TRUMP ON CLASS RELATED ISSUES.

THE ONE THAT STICKS OUT IN MY MIND IS WHEN HE BRAGGED ABOUT NOT PAYING OVERTIME TO THE PEOPLE THAT WORK FOR HIM AND FOUND OTHER WORKERS TO REPLACE THEM.

I MEAN YOU TALK ABOUT A GIFT FROM THE GODS, HERE SOMEBODY WHO IS PROMISING TO END TAXES ON OVERTIME BUT AT THE SAME TIME, HE CLAIMED HE NEVER PAID OVERTIME TO HIS OWN WORKERS.

NOT CAPITALIZING ON THAT, I THINK, WAS, IN FACT, A HUGE MISTAKE.

>> LET ME GO BACK TO THE BROADER THING, WHICH IS THE POPULISM.

THERE HAVE BEEN MANY DEMOCRATS WHO ARE ABLE TO KEEP A POPULIST MESSAGE, WHETHER IT WOULD BE JIMMY CARTER OR BILL CLINTON EARLY ON.

BUT WHAT THE DEMOCRATS HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO DO AND WHAT I THINK BERNIE SANDERS IS TALKING ABOUT IS REALLY EMBRACING POPULISM.

>> YEAH, LOOK.

BIDEN WAS ABLE TO DO THAT AT TIMES BECAUSE HE HAD SORT OF A LABOR HISTORY AND LIKE TALKING ABOUT UNIONS.

AND YOU KNOW, BUT IT WAS NEVER REALLY HARRIS'S FORTE.

SHE COMES OUT OF A LAW ENFORCEMENT BACKGROUND IN THE BAY AREA.

SHE IS NOT REALLY A CLASS WARRIOR, IT WASN'T THE KIND OF NATURAL LANGUAGE FOR HER TO USE.

I JUST DON'T THINK IT WAS, IT WAS OBVIOUSLY HER APPROACH.

ALSO, WALKER, DEMOCRATS, I THINK, HAVE BEEN SO FIXATED ON DRIVING THEIR NUMBERS IN THE SUBURBS AND TRYING TO DRIVE A WEDGE THROUGH THE OLDER REPUBLICAN COALITION, TALKING ABOUT ABORTION RIGHTS, TALKING ABOUT DEMOCRACY AND DONALD TRUMP SORT OF LOW CHARACTER.

GALVANIZING HIGH INCOME EARNERS IN THE SUMMERS BUT AGAIN, DEMOCRATS DID JUST FIND, WITH A LOT OF THOSE VOTERS WHO ARE NOW BASICALLY DEMOCRATS OPERATIONALLY BUT THERE'S JUST SIMPLY NOT THE NUMBERS THERE, OKAY?

YOU JUST LOOK IN A PLACE LIKE A MICHIGAN OR A PENNSYLVANIA AND YOU CAN GET A HELL OF A LOT OF VOTES -- >> THE OTHER ISSUE, ABOUT BESIDE THE ECONOMIC ONE ARE THE CULTURAL ONE.

THE POPULIST ONES.

DEMOCRATS GETTING PAINTED AS THE PARTY OF TRANSGENDER ATHLETIC RIGHTS OR BATHROOM RIGHTS OR WHATEVER.

TO WHAT EXTENT WILL THOSE REAL ISSUES AND TO WHAT EXTENT DID A CUT AGAINST THE DEMOCRATS?

>> WELL, IN TERMS OF BEING A REAL ISSUE, I THINK IT'S NOT REALLY A REAL ISSUE.

MOST HIGH SCHOOL SPORTS TEAMS ARE DEALING WITH THIS.

OBVIOUSLY, THERE HAVE BEEN A FEW CASES BUT IT'S JUST A WEDGE FOR THE REPUBLICANS TO USE TO TRY TO SORT OF JAM DEMOCRATS AND MAKE THEM CHOOSE BETWEEN THEIR TRADITIONAL AFFINITY AND SUPPORT FOR MARGINALIZED CONSTITUENCIES LIKE THOSE IN THE LGBT COMMUNITY AND THE BROADER ELECTORATE THAT'S GOING TO BE UNCOMFORTABLE WITH -- AND BOYS PLAYING IN GIRLS SPORTS AND OBVIOUSLY WORKED PRETTY WELL.

AND WALKER, MAYBE THE MOST MEMORABLE ACT THAT TRUMP RAN ON WAS THAT KAMALA HARRIS WANTS TO USE TAXPAYER DOLLARS TO PAY FOR TRANS SURGERY FOR PRISONERS, WHICH ALMOST SOUNDS LIKE A CONSERVATIVE PARITY, BUT IT'S ACTUALLY TRUE, THIS ACTUALLY HAPPENED IN CALIFORNIA.

AND IT WAS A GIFT FROM THE GODS FOR THE REPUBLICANS WHO PUT THIS ON REPEAT IN TELEVISION ADS, IT RAN AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN AND THIS GETS TO THE HEART OF THE DEMOCRATIC CHALLENGERS.

LOSING, NOT JUST WORKERS, WALKER, BUT LOSING MEN.

LOOKING TO LOSE WORKING-CLASS MEN WHO, FROM A CULTURAL STANDPOINT JUST HAVE A HARD TIME SUPPORTING DEMOCRATS.

>> IT'S A PROBLEM ABOUT LOSING MEN PARTLY A SEXISM AGAINST A WOMAN CANDIDATE?

>> THERE'S NO QUESTION THAT IT'S DIFFICULT FOR A WOMAN TO GET ELECTED PRESIDENT IN THIS COUNTRY.

WE HAVE TWO EXAMPLES OF THAT AND WE WOULD BE NAIVE TO SAY OTHERWISE.

IT'S EVEN HARDER WHEN SHE'S A BLACK WOMAN.

THERE'S NO QUESTION THAT THAT WAS A CHALLENGE FOR HARRIS, THAT THAT OBVIOUSLY WAS SOMETHING THAT SHE WAS GOING TO HAVE A HARD TIME GETTING BEYOND BUT I THINK THE GROUND WAS SOMEHOW, IN SOME WAYS LAID FOR HER IN WAYS THAT ARE EVEN MORE DIFFICULT FOR HER BECAUSE THERE'S THE PRE-EXISTING STRUCTURAL CHALLENGE FOR DEMOCRATS AS BEING THIS PARTY OF THE SO-CALLED WOKE.

I WROTE SOMETHING IN OCTOBER AND I READY, FOR HARRIS, SHE WAS NOT THE FACULTY CLUB TYPE.

SHE'S NOT DOING THE LINKAGE POLICE.

SHE WOULD'VE BEEN PERFECTLY COMFORTABLE, I THINK, SORT OF TAKING A DIFFERENT DIRECTION.

WOULD'VE HAD CREDIBILITY TO DO IT AS A BLACK WOMAN IN A SORT OF PUZZLING THAT SHE WOULDN'T HAVE DONE MORE OF THAT.

SORT OF TAKING A STAND, A SISTER SOLDIER DURING THE CAMPAIGN AGAINST THE EXCESSES OF THE CAMPUS LANGUAGE POLICE.

I THINK SHE COULD'VE DONE THAT AND IT MAY HAVE HELPED.

>> YOU SAID THAT, IN ONE WAY, SHE COULD'VE GONE WAS TO RUN A MORE POPULIST -- YOU SAID SHE SHOULD RUN TO THE CENTER A BIT MORE.

A MODERATE.

EXPLAIN WHY AND HOW THAT WOULD'VE WORKED AND WHY SHE DIDN'T DO IT.

WELL, LOOK.

THERE ARE WAYS THAT YOU CAN LEVEL POPULIST TO TAX AGAINST DONALD TRUMP ON ISSUES OF ECONOMIC FAIRNESS LIKE THE OVERTIME ISSUE BUT STILL BROADLY AND TOTALLY, REASSURE VOTERS IN THE POLITICAL CENTER THAT YOU ARE GOING TO GOVERN FROM THE CENTER.

IT'S SOMETHING THAT BILL CLINTON AND BARACK OBAMA UNDERSTOOD INTUITIVELY.

YOU CONSTANTLY HAVE TO PRACTICE DEFENSIVE POLITICS IN THIS COUNTRY, WHICH IS THE CENTER TO CENTER RIGHT, AND BY THE WAY, IT CERTAINLY CENTER TO CENTER RIGHT IN THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE VERSION OF THIS COUNTRY TO REASSURE PEOPLE THAT YOU ARE NOT CRAZY LIBERAL AND THAT'S JUST THE BURDEN OF RUNNING AND WINNING A NATIONAL ELECTION AS A DEMOCRAT.

IS WHY THE LAST TWO WERE AFFECTED.

IT WAS CONSTANTLY ON THEIR MINDS.

HOW DO I REASSURE THE CENTER THAT I'M NOT EXTREME.

>> CAN YOU DO THAT BY -- LIZ CHENEY AND OTHERS?

>> SHE TRIED TO DO THAT AROUND THE EDGES BUT HERE'S MY CONCERN ABOUT THE LIZ CHENEY STUFF.

WHAT YOU ARE SAYING WITH HER, YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT JANUARY 6, DEMOCRACY AND THE GUARDRAILS OF OUR CONSTITUTION, THAT'S NOT STUFF THAT'S GOING TO WIN YOU NEW VOTERS ARE VOTING ON JANUARY 6 IN OUR CONSTITUTION ARE ALREADY IN YOUR COLUMN BY NOW.

THEY ARE NOT THINKING ABOUT TRUMP.

THEY ARE ALREADY FOR YOU.

YOU'VE GOT TO GIVE THE VOTERS WHO ARE NOT QUITE YET FOR YOU SOMETHING AND WALTER, I WAS WITH HER IN LIZ CHENEY IN WISCONSIN.

PEOPLE STOOD UP FROM THE AUDIENCE AND SAID I'M A LIFETIME REPUBLICAN VOTER.

TELL ME HOW I CAN BE FOR YOU.

PLEASE REASSURE ME AND SHE COULDN'T DO IT.

>> YOU TALK ABOUT THE BIG SHIFT BEING MEN AND THIS IS SOMETHING THAT I HAVE NOTICED WHEN I LISTEN TO TALK RADIO OR I'M ONLINE, THAT THERE IS A ROW CULTURE OUT THERE, ESPECIALLY A YOUNG YOUNG MEN.

FOR THE FIRST TIME IN OUR LIFETIME, REPUBLICAN WON HISPANIC MEN, BUT IT'S A TECH BROKE CULTURE AND A FINANCE BROKER CULTURE --BRO CULTURE.

THAT'S JUST, IT'S JUST FLOCKED TO THE REPUBLICAN PARTY NOW.

>> IT HAS, AND I KIND OF WONDER IF WE WOULD EVEN CALL IT A BRO CULTURE IN THE 1980s OR 90s.

I DON'T THINK MEN WERE APPRECIABLY DIFFERENT THEN.

THEY WERE STILL MASCULINE AND SORT OF INTO SPORTS AND, YOU KNOW, AS OUR BUDDY SAYS, A HAMBURGER AND WATCH A FOOTBALL GAME.

I JUST THINK THIS SORT OF BROADER CULTURE HAS CHANGED SOMEWHAT AND WE ARE NOW DETERMINED TO PLACE FOLKS IN SORT OF IDENTITY BOXES IN WAYS THAT, YOU KNOW, IN THE PAST, IT WOULD'VE SORT OF, TO BORROW A PHRASE, BOYS BEING BOYS.

SO I'M NOT SURE HOW DIFFERENT IT IS BUT WHAT IS DIFFERENT, WHICH IS JUST EN MASSE BLOCKING TO SUPPORT REPUBLICANS.

>> THERE'S SOMETHING THAT WIRED MAGAZINE, I LOVE THE PHRASE THEY BEEN USING, CALLS THE MANNO SPHERE -- PODCAST, SOME OF OUR VIEWERS MAY NOT OF HEARD OF, BUT THE TOP ONES LIKE AIDEN ROSS AND THEN YOU HAVE JOE ROGAN AND TUCKER CARLSON AND LEX FREDMAN BUT HE WENT ON ALL OF THOSE.

ONLINE AND IN THE PODCAST WORLD.

>> WALTER, YOU ARE SO DEAD ON.

IT'S THE NEW CELEBRITY CULTURE.

IS TAKING PLACE OFF TV MOVIES.

I'LL GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE.

THE SATURDAY BEFORE THE ELECTION, I WAS AT PENN STATE, THE OHIO STATE PENN STATE GAME AT A TAILGATE WITH ONE OF THE GOP CANDIDATES IN PENNSYLVANIA AND THERE WAS A PODCASTER THERE AND SOMEBODY WHO IS A POPULAR PODCAST THAT WAS KIND OF PART SPORTS, PART POLITICS.

WALTER, HE WAS FLOCKED WITH PEOPLE ASKING HIM FOR SELFIES.

PEOPLE CALLING UP LEFT AND RIGHT.

MUCH MORE SO THAN THE ACTUAL POLITICIANS IN PENNSYLVANIA WHO WERE THERE AT THE TAILGATE.

THE SELFIES WERE FOR HIM, NOT FOR THE CAMERAS.

WOULD IT HAVE MADE A BIG DIFFERENCE IF BIDEN HAD NOT SOUGHT RE-ELECTION TWO OR THREE YEARS AGO?

>> I DO THINK SO.

I THINK THE ORIGINAL SIN HERE, YOU COULD SAY POLITICALLY IS TWO THINGS.

A, IT'S BIDEN PUTTING HARRIS ON 2020.

BASICALLY, ENSURING THAT SHE MADE A SUCCESSOR, AND SECONDLY, IT'S BIDEN'S INSISTENCE, I GUESS SURE THE CO-ORIGINAL SIN, IF YOU WILL.

BIDEN'S INSISTENCE, WALTER, ON RUNNING FOR RE-ELECTION AS HE WAS GOING TO TURN 82 YEARS OLD.

REALLY, NOBODY IN HIS ORBIT OR EVEN IN THE PARTY IS INSISTING ON OTHERWISE.

THAT, FOR ME, WAS THE DEAFENING SILENCE.

NOBODY IN HIS FAMILY, STAFF, OR THE SENIOR LEADERS OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY SAID A WORD ABOUT THE WISDOM OF RUNNING AN 82-YEAR-OLD FOR RE-ELECTION.

BY THE WAY, LOOKED EVERY BIT OF A TWO.

>> THE LARGER QUESTION IS OF GUARDRAILS, WHETHER IT'S GUARDRAILS, MAYBE FOR THE WALL STREET JOURNAL EDITORIAL BOARD ABOUT TOO HIGH OF TURFS, -- TARIFFS, OR TALKING ABOUT GUARDRAILS THAT KEEP THEM WITHIN CONSTITUTIONAL LIMITS, DO YOU THINK THERE WILL BE PEOPLE AND WHO WILL THEY BE WHO WILL TRY TO PUT GUARDRAILS AROUND TRUMP THIS TIME THE WAY THAT SOME OF THE PEOPLE DID EARLY ON IN THE FIRST TRUMP ADMINISTRATION?

>> THAT'S ONE OF THE BIGGEST DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THIS ADMINISTRATION AND THAT ADMINISTRATION.

TRUMP CAME IN, SURROUNDED BY STAFF AND THE CABINET THAT WAS MOSTLY PEOPLE THAT WERE, YOU KNOW, IN THAT OLD CONSENSUS, WALTER, THAT YOU MENTIONED, NEOLIBERAL, NEOCONSERVATIVE, AND CERTAINLY ON CAPITOL HILL, BUT THE LEADERS WERE PAUL RYAN, MITCH McCONNELL.

NOW THEY ARE LIKELY GOING TO BE LIKE JOHNSON IN THE HOUSE AND I THINK LIKE --PEOPLE WHO BOTH COME FROM KIND OF PRE-TRUMP TRADITION, MORE CONSERVATIVE THROUGH A BUSH CONSERVATIVE.

BUT STILL, THEY ARE GOING TO BE MUCH MORE VOLATILE TO ACCOMMODATE TRUMP.

ESPECIALLY AFTER THE SELECTION BECAUSE THEY SEEK THE SUPPORT HE HAS ACROSS THE BOARD AND I THINK THEY ARE GOING TO BE EVEN MORE RELUCTANT TO CONFRONT HIM.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS THAT STRUCK ME MOST ABOUT THE SELECTION IN THE PAST FEW YEARS IS THE DEEP POLARIZATION.

PEOPLE JUST CAN'T TALK TO PEOPLE ON THE OTHER SIDE AS MUCH AS THEY USED TO IN AN ERA WHEN IT WAS OBAMA RUNNING AGAIN AGAINST JOHN McCAIN, MITT ROMNEY.

HOW DEEP IS THIS POLARIZATION, AND HOW IS THAT GOING TO SHAPE AMERICAN POLITICS THE NEXT 10 YEAR?

>> WELL, IT'S THE BIG STORY OF OUR TIME.

POLITICS HAS BECOME LESS ABOUT YOUR PREFERENCE AND MORE ABOUT THE STATION OF YOUR IDENTITY.

IT'S NOT PISTACHIO OR STRAWBERRY WHERE DESSERT IS GOOD OR EVIL.

IT'S WHICH SIDE ARE YOU ON AND THAT IS A FUNDAMENTAL SHIFT FROM WHAT POLITICS WAS 20 YEARS AGO AND I THINK THAT HAS CREATED A LOT OF THE CONTENTIOUSNESS IN THIS COUNTRY.

I THINK HE'S MORE OF A SYMPTOM OR AN ACCELERANT THAT HE IS THE STORY BUT OBVIOUSLY, NOW THAT HE'S BACK IN POWER, THAT IS NOT GOING AWAY AND I THINK, IT'S GOING TO CAUSE HUGE RIFTS IN THIS COUNTRY BOTH CULTURALLY AND, FRANKLY, IN FAMILIES AND COMMUNITIES, TOO.

AND IT'S A CHALLENGE AND I THINK ONE OF THE BIGGEST STORY LINES WE ARE GOING TO SEE IS WHAT DO DEMOCRATS DO?

DO THEY MERELY GO TO THE BARRICADES AND TRY TO RESIST TRUMP LIKE THEY DID IN 2016 AND 2017, OR ON THE RESULTS SO SHOCKING TO THEM THAT THEY TRY TO ACCOMMODATE SOME LEVEL OF TRUMPISM?

>> TO ANSWER YOUR OWN QUESTION.

>> OH, LOOK.

I THINK THE MAJORITY OF THEM WILL GO TO THE BARRICADES AND TRY TO RESIST.

I DO.

>> IS THIS A MAJOR POLITICAL REALIGNMENT OF TECTONIC SHIFT THAT WE HAVE SEEN TALKING ABOUT EVERYTHING FROM WORKING-CLASS TO GENDER ISSUES AND OTHER THINGS, OR IS THIS, WILL RESHAPE AMERICAN POLITICS JUST THE WAY THE NEW DEAL DID?

OR IS THIS SOMETHING TEMPORARY?

>> I THINK IT'S TEMPORARY.

LOOK, I THINK WE ARE IN A.

OF EXCEEDINGLY CLOSE ELECTIONS IN WHICH THE PARTIES TRADE THAT POWER IN A DIVIDED COUNTRY THAT'S CLEAVED THOSE LINES OF CLASS, GENDER, AND REGION.

THAT MUCH.

I SPOKE TO A STORY AND LAST WEEK AT THE MISSONI IN ABOUT THIS.

THIS DOES REFLECT THE KIND OF POST-CIVIL WAR PERIOD THAT I THINK TECHNOLOGICAL CHANGE, HIGH IMMIGRATION, AND I REALLY DIVIDED COUNTRY IN WHICH POLITICS WAS NOW A PART OF IDENTITY IN WHO YOU WERE MORE THAN IT WAS A PREFERENCE AND BECAUSE THE COUNTRY IS SO DIVIDED, I THINK WE ARE GOING TO HAVE CLOSELY FOUGHT ELECTIONS AND, FRANKLY, BACK AND FORTH, WALTER, BECAUSE WHEN ONE PARTY OVERREACHES OR MISSTEPS, THE OTHER PARTY WILL TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THAT AND WILL GO ON AND ON AND ON.

I THINK IN THAT SAME WAY, FOR SOME TIME TO COME.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US, JONATHAN MARTIN.

>> THANK YOU, WALTER.